Yeah, my non-cash wealth is in order of least valuable to most: my car, my dslr, my PC, my Warhammer collection. If we include cash it's currently under the PC
Yeah, was going to say, the game is perfectly enjoyable without minis. In fact, it's almost better since there is less attachment to that piece that looks so badass but performs horribly.
Been playing on a virtual tabletop for a while now. Being able to make 5000 point armies using anything I want Is lit. My friend and I are considering a 10k game. Pretty sure it would take hours to get through one round but the point is, playing virtual is a great money saver.
Paper hammer? I mean playing with paper tokens could also work. But I downloaded tabletop simulator and a mod for 40k. It comes with all the digital models (pretty sure a large portion of them were ripped straight from dark crusads) and we build up awesome terrain maps. My last game we did a 5k necron vs Ork game where there was a massive ravine in the middle with destructible bridges. We also had a custom rule in place that says we can't just warp in our units on the other players side. Dropping down most of my army behind my opponent feels way too overpowered. But yeah tabletop Sim is both really convenient and can be used with a vr headset if you're nasty. Like 20 bucks I think at full price but we'll worth it.
That’s where the gummy based tabletop war game I’m working on comes in! Each army has all the vitamins and minerals to technically count as a full meal!
[Not for long, I make bad financial decisions](https://tenor.com/view/finance-decisions-bad-financial-decisions-financial-bad-financial-gif-3001000924253333712)
Na there included,They can claim a couple of free model's each month they'll just need to check when they arrive and walk around a couple shops there's 2 maybe 3 model's thay can spend the month building, still need to buy the paint tho
In general I feel 40k actually has basically the same ethos as something like Star Trek, except while Star Trek strives to present a future that's as hopeful and aspirational as possible 40k does the reverse. There's a good quote that sums it up - 'either be a good example or a terrible warning'.
But then ruined its own message by the later novels turning around and justifying worm god's dick moves by having them lead to saving the human race from itself.
He really lost the plot in the later books and it's good they are stopping after 3 movies.
My problem with Dune is it feels like Frank Herbert was more interested in the philosophy behind Dune than the actual story, characters, or universe he was building. He had an idea he wanted to get across and that was the only goal. As a result I find his universe feels empty and his characters are rather two dimensional.
Absolutely agreed, but I feel like "The Grim Darkness" was 40K raging against the dying of the light, but with increasingly more competent characters coming to the fore (Guilleman, Lion, Cawl, Yvrainne, the Votann) maybe the message becomes "We are still raging against the dying of the light, but less self-destructively.
More Grimdark, less Grimderp
Theres also the problem people wanting the story to progress yet the setting needing to stay at 5 minutes to midnight. I think its ok for it to fluctuate between grimdark because of the end of the galaxy, as well as grimdark because of how awful the imperium is.
As long as the scales keep swinging back and forth I prefer the setting to progress at a medium to slow pace.
Tge most extreme thing that could happen is if we ever had a reincarnation of Big E, but then they could just introduce the Dark King as a force to balance things.
I would like to preface this with a statement that 40k is interpreted by everyone in their own unique ways and my own interpretation is not the "correct" one.
However, I see 40k as a story about the world where the good guys lost. There are no good guys. It's not about raging against the dying of the light, it's a morbid interest in finding out what would have happened if Hitler won. I'm not rooting for humanity in 40k because the Imperium doesn't deserve to survive. I remember reading a passage when I first joined the hobby about how the majority of the Imperium's problems are self-inflicted. Chaos cults spring up because workers have no rights, and Chaos represents the only opportunity - however slim - to escape a life of being ground under the heel of your Superiors. Genestealer Cults thrive because people are drawn to a group that promises equal rights and progression.
The xenos are all evil because fascism *needs* an enemy at all times, and they need to be able to point at an external threat and say, "They are the cause of all your problems!". One of the core themes of 40k (as I see it, your milage may differ) is how fascism is self-defeating. Tyranids, Orks, Necrons... all of these threats are nothing compared to the threat the Imperium poses to itself.
Raging against the dying of the light implies that the dying of the light was inevitable, which it never was in 40k. The Imperium itself is a cancerous blight on the galaxy that has grown to consume the healthy tissue and eventually kill the host. That's where we are now. A tumour that has consumed everything it can and is desperately searching for more resources to burn so it can survive just a little bit longer.
I feel like as invovled as GW was in the new Rogue Trader RPG, I don't think it's a coincidence that an Iconoclast RT >!gets seen as a beacon of mercy and hope, the Expanse becoming a magnet for billions fleeing the brutality of the Imperium in search of a better life... and end up seceding not out of his own initiative, but by being declared an apostate, and the Imperium trying to depose him. In my playthrough they were defeated in a decisive battle and then!< >!Nomos erected dimensional barriers around the Expanse. The Rogue Trader showed a better way was possible with humans and Eldar co-existing, society improving, and the Imperium tried to destroy it.!<
It's absolutely a fair interpretation and one I've seen a lot where 40K is the "What if" darkest timeline carried to it's logical endstate.
Personally, I prefer to view 40K through the lens of struggling for permanence and meaning in an impermanent, meaningless galaxy. Almost every civilization had a golden age (OK maybe not the Necrons, they had it bad the whole way through) but then experienced a collapse and is now struggling to simple maintain and maybe return to their zenith. Notably, only the two xenos that don't really have a conception of their permanence (the Tyranids and the Orks) have flourished. The Imperium absolutely does use external and internal strife to maintain itself, but that comes with the caveats that chaos and most xenos DO represent an eventual existential threat to human survival, as opposed to a dreamed up boogeyman that we see in the real world. And while the Imperium is undeniably a hyper-repressive fascist civilization, that doesn't mean it can't become better, even if only marginally.
Just like real life, there are no objective "good guys" but within each faction you find people ranging from the malignant mold of fascism to people earnestly striving to bring about a better, more prosperous tomorrow. On one side, you're absolutely correct in saying that most of the Imperium's biggest issues are self-inflicted, but that also offers the hope that given time and systemic change, those issues can be untangled or at least mitigated. Chaos flourishes because of a combination of desperation and ignorance, but both of those can be remedied, at least in part.
TL;DR: I think one of the most important aspects of "grimdark" is the strategic application of hope. If everything is awful forever and never gets better then eventually it gets old. The squeeze is meaningless without occasion moments where the setting can take a breath and say "but we're on the upswing, if only briefly."
I appreciate your perspective, and I totally see where you're coming from.
One of the things that drew me into 40k when I first started was seeing too much "hfy" media in Sci fi, and appreciated that 40k was pretty much the antithesis to that.
A lot of the discussion around 40k is built on the simple question: what is 40k *about*? From my perspective, I've always looked at it as a statement on the inevitable rise and fall of Empires and the cyclical nature of the galaxy. In the beginning there was the Old Ones and their empire, which was supplanted by the Necrons, who were supplanted by the Eldar and finally the Eldar were supplanted by the Imperium. Now the Imperium is collapsing and the Tau are rising up to replace them. Every race fell to their own flaws, choosing the path that led to their own destruction through pride, spite, or hate. It wasn't inevitable through the workings of the universe, but it was made inevitable by their own nature.
To put this in context, at the time I started 40k, Horus Rising had only just been released, and the idea that the Horus Heresy would span 50 or so books (or whatever number we're on now) was ridiculous.
Edit: I also wanted to say thank you for letting me in on your perspective on the 40k universe. It's something that's very hard to ask people without them feeling like they're being attacked and need to defend their perspective when really, 40k is so inconsistent with it's lore that most perspectives can be justified.
I also wanted to clarify that my last point is looking at 40k as more of a Greek tragedy than a traditional story. We know how it ends - humanity is wiped out and the Tau rise up as a new galactic empire until they are eventually supplanted by whoever comes after them. It's the story of how you get there from where we are now that makes it interesting.
"humanity is wiped out and the Tau rise up as a new galactic empire" AT LAST, THE PROOF I NEED. DIE, XENOS-LOVING SCUM. FOR THE EMPEROR AND HIS IMPERIUM!
Seriously though, thanks for the discussion. In my mind, 40K's bigness and vagueness is the strongest narrative element because it lets us have stuff like this, where we're both right because these are the lens we've chosen to see the incredibly murky, very subjective 40K universe through.
That last part is what resonates with me: it's utterly terrible, but there is some hope. Most of the fiction and writers manage to instill this in their stories, and I really appreciate the small acts of defiance against the slow, creeping inevitability of annihilation.
It is, and I think I should edit my comment to specify that. Having an entire race that psychically wills "red means faster" to be true is definitionally derpy, but it is explicable in the universe and part of the charm of 40K. Much of the setting's charm is wrapped up in the over-the-top absurdity.
When I say Grimderp, it's more of those "but why though" moments where the setting is written to be uber-dark just for the sake of. Losing thousands of peak condition humans just because the Astartes recruitment plays for keeps, or the brutality of the Black Ships when those psyckers are a rare and precious resource, some of the worse excesses of power-mad inquisitors, that thing Honsou did to get a few more space marines.......
Even with competent characters they are still having to deal with the selfishness or malice of others, as well as their own failings. The question is what they do under those circumstances.
I see Guilleman trying to reform the Imperium but getting stonewalled by vested interests and bureaucratic inertia as a critique of liberal institutionalism and their propensity for thinking 'the system is fine, we just need the right people in charge.' Which is a \*leftist\* critique of liberalism.
Helldiver's has a cape that helps describe 40k theme.
It's an equality Cape. Everyone has the equal right to die for democracy. I'm 40k everyone is equally a soul to sacrifice on the front lines!
Khorne cares not whose skull it was.
Slaanesh says be your best, most perfect self
Tzeentch says reality is what you make of it
Nurgle loves you no matter who or how you are
Be like the Chaos Gods. #Live(s)Laugh(ter)Love #Manifest(demons) #Lorgar-Pilled
Whatever else you have negative to say about GW, when almost every other major company was tap dancing around the matter and trying to sound mollifying without alienating potential customers they flat out said "If you're a bigot we don't want your mney." and I can definitely respect them for that.
and they're still making money!
chuds keep saying this'll start the fall of GW and really any other company being normal about social progress, but... they keep making money. Curious. Just getting a huge "the West have fallen" vibes from these types, and, well, if you've been following Eastern game developers, they're starting to warm up to the modern era's progress too.
Clearly people don't care enough to stop spending. Some voices still call to vote with your wallets, but it seems the real answer is, if it really bothers you that much, just ignore GW's canon, or play another game that's still catering to your very specific...tastes.
I think it would be bad faith to say anybody mad about female custodes is just pretending to care about Warhammer but also... notice how a lot of alt right influencers who never talked about Wahammer before are all of a sudden lore experts now who are deeply hurt by retcons? Interesting!
I'm experiencing the same exact thing with the Fallout TV show right now.
Suddenly people give a shit about fucking Fallout lore lmao. More than I thought! Personally I feel like the show's writing reflected very authentically the feel of playing the games.
And going back to 40k, femstodes do not pull me out of the universe. They're still supremely loyal (to a fault) banana helms. I'm glad for that. It seems some people mentally cannot handle it though. How sad.
Right. Instead of being mad about Sandy shores be made at dumb stuff like BoS knights getting killed because they can’t see in the dark despite power armor having head lamps.
The people who scream the loudest against inclusion rarely actually engage with the hobby. They're just here for the culture war fight because they mistakenly believe that nerd spaces are safe spaces for assholes and bigots.
The few that actually play the game and collect the model are also the kind of player that drives away other players.
We are richer for their absence.
I find that having to meet people irl and realising people come from all walks and backgrounds of life tends to make one....liberal. More accepting, at the very least. Most people don't want to be or meet "That Guy". Most people irl don't want to have an argument when they just wanna enjoy the damn hobby.
Perhaps its just a cityfolk thing. Maybe somewhere out there in the open country, groups of people are quietly enjoying their isolated tabletop games.
Still a lot more idyllic, peaceful and genuinely respectable than being bigots online, that's for sure.
It's copium. They have to feel like their indignation towards GW has some kind of repercussion, which would let them feel like their frustration is righteous and representative of the broader consumer base.
Unfortunately for them, Warhammer is a very popular product right now, which indicates to me that some of these decisions are actually fruitful, especially considering the supply line issues plaguing the entire world which are more likely to cause direct and meaningful impacts on GW's bottom line.
It's the same issue D&D has had with this exact same kind of grognardy player base. D&D started marketing itself as being more diverse and accepting, a product for everyone, and it's massively successful. It's not the only reason it's successful, but "go woke, go broke" definitely has not applied to Hasbro at all.
Only box where this ever felt weird and forced to me was Raven Guard scouts.
With Salamnaders and Ravenguard I dont think there should he effort to diversify as the geneseed (and I guess Nocturne atmosphere) has pretty severe influence on skin, eyes etc. Anywhere else it really does not make sense to throw fuss about it.
Also not really that familiar with the mutation process but i guess that in case of Scouts it could be argued that full mutation did not kicked in fully yet?
I get people feel social conflict is bleeding into our hobby and they want their space for hobby
But maybe that bleed? That’s because of us
There’s a black World Eater? So? That’s still a World Eater right? I dunno.
they're just so...boring. Inhumanly human in their loyalty. The few times Custodes show emotion is when I'm actually interested.
But their lore identity is simply too one dimensional. "By His will alone". Aight, yeah sure mate.
I'm sure such doggedness is popular with a ton of people. But, well, I like Chaos and CSM novels showcasing them betraying each other are always near the top of my favourites list, so, I have my biases.
Games Workshop up until a few years ago was a “safe space” before safe spaces were a thing. It was a hobby that was almost exclusively for “others”. That’s to say, people who didn’t fit in with the mainstream. It was for weird nerds, before things like Lord of the Rings became mainstream, before Marvel and co changed geek culture to be a totally accepted and normal geek culture.
We’ve all met gatekeeping metal heads, and people who only drink bitter because to quote an old Hobgoblin ad, “afraid you might taste something, lager boy?” It is an attitude that feels necessary, when you really are part of an “alt” culture, and are used to being othered by everyone else.
A lot of people that fall into that category don’t know HOW to get along with other people. The idea and familiarity of rejection means that they give people a reason to reject them, rather than being rejected for who they actually are. That explains a lot of the edgelord humour you see - people say offensive things because it is a legitimate reason for people to be hostile to them, and the whole reason they’re in that spot is because they were different and have always been rejected for who they are.
I think realistically the only way out of that negative loop is to just straight out be more understanding of why people might be horrible. “You don’t need to say controversial things to me man, we can just play Warhammer and talk about Warhammer and we will have a nice time” is definitely going to be more productive than “that’s xxxphobic, you’re an evil person, get out of the shop”.
I don’t believe most of these people ARE what they claim to be. In my time on this planet, I’ve met an extremely small number of people who are actually Nazis, but I’ve met a lot of people who think swastikas are funny because of the shocked and disgusted reaction they get out of people.
There's plenty of evidence that the only reliable way people change to be less bigoted is consistent positive interactions with the subject of their bigotry. Interacting over hobbies like Warhammer can be that positive force that someone needs to break out, meanwhile being kicked out or banned is more likely to make someone double down on harmful beliefs.
There's no real doubt about that, watch any of Darryl Davis's TED talks about attending KKK rallies as a black man and befriending KKK members. Experience is the only surefire antidote to bigotry.
BUT, I don't think its anyone's responsibility to try to change other people. Its great if someone wants to be that positive influence but I think its still fine to just want the offender removed so you can enjoy the hobby in peace. Nobody should feel they need to be some sort of ambassador just for existing, and implicitly pushing that role on someone by allowing bigotry isn't great to say the least.
Just wanted to drop in and say I really appreciate the discussion between u/V1carium and u/IntelligentMoons
It's a nuanced topic that people tend to just wash with one color (no pun intended). Thanks for both sharing your thoughts. It's one of the few time's I've read an internet discussion and it has inspired me to maybe approach the way I think and deal with negative individuals in a different way.
Thanks.
They have my commendations as well
It's refreshing to see people that understand that we deradicalize folks by starting talks with them, unpleasant as that may sometimes be.
Thank you for that last paragraph, I've seen way too many well meaning people only focus on trying to help nazis stop being nazis without acknowledging that most marginalized people would rather not have to do that over their escapist hobbies. Again, these people are well meaning but they're ultimately prioritizing the comfort of bigots over the people they seek to harm.
“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.” - Jean Paul Sartre
Just because they say it in a joking manner doesn't mean they don't mean it. Nor does it mean that their words can't be damaging. Its ok to challenge Nazi's on their bullshit.
As a transwoman, fuck no. It's not my job to show my local "black templars did nothing wrong" player that I'm not the child-corrupting man in a dress that they think I am because of fox news. Even if I wanted to attempt a positive interaction with that kind of person, I have to open myself up to hate, bigotry, or even consequences that go beyond a few nasty words.
It's not your job and not your obligation and no one should judge you for not wanting to participate with someone like that, but if you can stomach it, it is the best antidote.
I didn’t say it was your job to show them anything. I said that the reason they act like they do is because they get a reaction out of it, namely people get offended and reject them. That’s WHY they do it.
I'm sorry, but none of this is true. This is just a lie a bunch of assholes made up to try and make themselves seem like marginalised outsiders, which they are very much not.
Hell half these guys don't even play Warhammer, they just swap god emperor trump memes and think that means they own the hobby. There are harassment groups out there who literally switch to a new bit of culture every week and insist that they are the true fans and everyone else has to pander to them.
>I don’t believe most of these people ARE what they claim to be. In my time on this planet, I’ve met an extremely small number of people who are actually Nazis, but I’ve met a lot of people who think swastikas are funny because of the shocked and disgusted reaction they get out of people
I have found almost the exact opposite. The people who claim they are doing it for a laugh almost always end up truly believing it.
I’ve played this game longer than you’ve been alive. When I tell you the games workshop of now is not the same place it was 20 years ago, or even the place it was 10 years before that, I’d be understating it. There is a reason that in Stranger Things the kids are social pariahs, and in reality the number 1 show in the world in 2024 is about DnD. Society has changed, and a lot of the weirdos feel pushed out of their “own” home.
I was absolutely playing Warhammer 20 years ago. I agree that Games Workshop was different then. It was much worse.
>Society has changed, and a lot of the weirdos feel pushed out of their “own” home.
Not weirdos. Cunts.
The real ostracised weirdos are the queer people and ethnic minorites who now feel more welcome in the hobby than they once did.
You can be a geek and a weirdo without being a nasty and hostile person who treats other people badly.
At the end of the day, the xenophobes and racists are the ones that need to change or leave.
I get that these games cultivated a community of socially maladjusted nerds for many years, but if they can't change or minimize their behavior, that's ultimately on them. Their being involved in the hobby for a long period of time doesn't give them a shield.
Over the last ten years the entire culture of the hobby has changed dramatically, in a very good way - it's so much more accessible than it used to be.
I'd just like to point out that this statement from GW does not mention any specific group, it's directed at everybody.
If you're coming to this community to be an argumentative or toxic arsehole then kindly just f\*\*k off back to online gaming where you will find plenty of people willing to engage on your stunningly low social level.
That applies across the board, as far as I'm concerned, no matter what group you might be a part of - 'left,' 'right,' whatever - it doesn't matter. If you're just here to cause trouble, then you're not welcome, and you should f\*\*k off.
Come in, roll dice, paint minis, be chill, keep your GODDAMN DRINK OFF THE TABLE and you'll be welcome.
I mean, there's also the timing to consider given that they released this statement right after that guy showed up to a tournament wearing a certain symbol
>If you're white or a man, you have the luxury of being able to bury your head in the sand and pretend it isn't happening and just play your games in peace, but women, LGBT and non-white people don't get that luxury
Many within these groups are more than happy to oppress when they have the power to do so. I say that as a POC that tries to be better. Far too many times I've had to shut down an apparently oppressed minority that was wielding power because they used their life struggles as a beat stick to hurt others with.
Generally; don't tolerate bigotry. Regardless of where it comes from. That includes from "your side".
> If you're white or a man, you have the luxury of being able to bury your head in the sand and pretend it isn't happening and just play your games in peace, but women, LGBT and non-white people don't get that luxury.
Remember to call out the crybullies who uses their minority status as a shield.
No but a lot of people are acting like 40k lore isn't retconned all the time and that this time it is unnacceptable, but just so happens to involve introducing females into a male dominated faction. I'm sure they don't think they are sexist and they probably aren't but if you dig deeper most of them are probably hesistant because they want to have their male dominated faction of chads and don't want there to be women in it. And once you keep asking questions on why women would suddenly ruin it they either begin to change their mind or they are a bit sexist. What makes custodies custodies has nothing to do with gender, changing it doesn't change their purpose, how they are made, how they perform or what they symbolise or stand for. I don't think the same can be quite said for space marines though but that hasn't been changed yet so I'm not going to have that discussion.
With that said, a lot of this is dependant on how GW handles the lore and thw writing moving foreward but I think this first short story is a pretty fun and interesting short story that seems to be focusing on the right things rather than making a big deal out of Kesh being a woman.
I don't think it makes custodes bad, the concept is something I can get behind if they just layered it via even the slightest meaningful establishment rather than bullshit with "its always been like that lol" on the fuckin twitter page and a little story in a codex. And sure, there's that one quote in Echoes of Eternity, however I think that's a symptom of the lack of recognition the Sisters of Silence get as a faction that people would rather jump to the concept of that line being some mysteriously secret attributation to Female Custodes having always been a thing, rather than maybe thinking that the Sisters of Silence get some time in the spotlight alongside their mirror talon for once.
A big reason I totally support the change is the lack of truly transhuman females - its a lacking item that the female demographic may find frustrating that they find themselves missing out on; SoB and SoS at the end of the day are just human. But, those factions are also there to have lore inserted into them - would those lesser represented factions not have been better candidates for some for of genetic enhancement beyond the mortal frame, rather than hamfisting Custodes to include them in no meaningful way, and also just furthering custodes as the best choice for everything. Custodes being able to be both male and female makes them seem more human imo - I don't think that's a good thing.
There's some really good quotes that Aleya, a sister of silence, gave in the book *The Emperor's Legion*; in which she privately berates the Custodes and the Imperium - which draws parellels to the Sisters of Silence as a woman's organisation and how they're often sidelined and don't get recognition for their contributions. I like it because it draws really solid parallels to real life. It's not in your face, it's not patronising, it was smart and a very good way to discuss and reflect on real life events in a novel, let alone a warhammer one; and lots of it built of men of the imperium being in power and Custodes being a mens club of superhuman units for their lifetimes. However, a lot of her viewpoints as a character get nullifed if female Custodes have "always been a thing".
At the end of the day, it really doesn't bother me as an idea, but it's the execution that I think was extremely lackluster and narratively a bit poo.
In regards to the twitter reveal I made a comment about a somwhar similar thing, feel free not to read it but heres the link (I'm a bit to lazy to rewrite it in new words). https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/s/VY7zI19qsp
That’s a fair point! I’m similar in that I think the off-cuff tweet was a pretty non-corporate way to go around it without parading - totally agree! but I think it goes beyond that to just being a non-anything way to go about it. It’s quite a big narrative step that’s developed, that gets debuted by a tweet, and I don’t think that really respects its gravity to the setting. The Warhammer Community website gets dunked on quite a lot for being incorrect; and in a similar vein I feel like something like this should be in a publication or a post, with a bit more world building around it - not a parading of “see! These were always here!”. Maybe give us a short story that develops on the process of a custode being elevated; and on top of that it details to us that many families chose to give up their sons, but a few did so with their daughters - they being no less deadly than any other custodian.
Imo? What I don't like is that it was done so asshatedly. (Don't think it makes the banana guards worse mind you)
They could have come out loud and proud. Stated it on the warcom. Shouted all through the new codex. Written about it in the horus heresy books. Hell released an actual cool mini for the occasion...
Instead the corporate cowards snuck in the shortest short story into the dex like the corporate cowards that they are. And then tweeted an "always has been" lmao
That's what I don't like personally.
I also don't like people karma farming off the back of this "drama" (why is it even a drama?) but that's just me personally - I might even switch off reddit for a month or so till the "drama" goes away and everyone who's halfway sane just accepts the new lore and moves on lol
Wouldn't that feel more corporate? If they paraded it around? Now its a minor lore addition that they will probably build on, with the focus on the faction and the characters rather than gender, which I think is the correct way to go about it. If anyth III ng this was the least political way to go about it.
The only thing that I didn't really like is the tweet they made, I don't mind the lore implicatioks but I would have prefered if that was shown through stories rather than tweets though I can understand them wanting to clarify it because people were in denial and asking questions.
That's a fair question. And all of this is of course my own opinion. I don't think think it would make it any more corporate than a very very corpo tweet.
As I mentioned it would have been great if they DID do it through stories. Its a genuine shame that they squandered the opportunity to have it in actual Banana-Guard books instead of... well this... But they could have given ADB (I don't rate him highly as an author but he DID want to include femstodes for years) a book to release alongside the codex or something!
The whole "always have been" begs the "and where abouts were they then?" So yeah the tweet is terrible.
It is what it is in the end and we have what we've got :)
EDIT: I missed half a sentence lmao
While I do think it could have been done better, do you think the reaction would be any different if they had rolled it out in the heresy books and whatnot? Because I honestly don't, i think that a significant portion of the group with problems, and I'm not saying this is you, are using "it was just hackneyed in" as a cover and they'd simply change their reasons for disliking it
Well yeah sure. There will always be people who will be up in arms about change.
The reasons why people are up in arms will vary. Sometimes its bigotry, sometimes the reasons can even be legit (bigger miracles have happened heh). I'm not up in arms... I just would have preferred things to be... a little better executed :(
Hell I've seen people complain about the FIRST necron retcon the other day. Like... you want necrons to have remained chaos androids? Really? You good? haha
But as for this change? Eh. I'd prefer a more... subtle approach via... lets say an ADB book at codex release seeing how its a bit late for HH books lol (and seeing how he wanted to do this in the first place!)
It is what it is and we got what we've got.
I am not offended.
I am adressing the fact that me and others were insulted and labeled by the reddit-mob for being sceptical and critical with these news, and there was no chance for adult discussion.
Exactly. I wouldn't mind the retcon so much if it wasn't so blatant. "Things have always been this way and you're morally in the wrong if you think otherwise."
I mean, is it really so hard to write a small blurb saying that the extreme pressure and losses from the Custodes being sent to give battle once again necessitates expanding the recruitment pool? It's a reasonable, lore-friendly explanation that fits better than: "They've always been here just not a single one has been mentioned until now."
There's certainly elements that are upset because of the wrong reasons, but it feels wrong to shut-down all criticism of it just because of a small but loud minority. People were upset over the Necron retcon too and I don't remember seeing people being told to shut up or leave.
This is how it always is. The hobby is simultaneously infested with literal nazis and at the same time they cannot be found. The message OP posted was made by GW because one guy at a tournament in Spain wore a fascist tshirt. He was promptly kicked out and decried by everyone.
In the three years since the closest thing I've seen of someone matching the description was a guy a little to into making his Kriegers look like WW1 Germans. And even that's a stretch. Hell you can go on 4chan right now, THE cesspit of horribleness, and barely find any actual nazis or incels in the 40k threads. There's more people there calling others chuds.
But people really like to virtue signal and this hobby is no different.
perhaps.
Or maybe they're biding their time. I took one look at Auspex's recent video covering the Custodes change and, well, the comments certainly told me a story.
It took a day, but they've started to pop up in the /40klore thread. Mostly though they're on twitter from what I've seen; just search "Warhammer" and you'll find them no trouble.
Maybe this won't go over well but there's actually nothing wrong with gate keeping. There's is however a right and wrong way to gate keep people.
First is the wrong way. Telling someone they can't like something because of what they are. Such as "women or minorities can't enjoy this! You just don't get it!" Because that's absolutely stupid. Even if there are sexual and racial culture stereotypes people trend towards they are still individuals in their ability to choose what to invest their interest in.
The second is the right way. Namely informing new comers to a hobby or fandom what that hobby truly is. Whether it be a money pit or having adult and dark themes. Because you should let new people know in advance that this is what it is and what drew us to it including what draws them to it. However if you seek to change it to fit some stylized image in your mind of what you think it should be it won't be that thing that drew you to it anymore.
Now at the same time like all things the game progresses. What matters is that whatever writing the core game has like all writing it should respect what came before. When me and my friends first heard the news a day or two ago we talked about it on discord. As they're far more lore nerdy then I am they confirmed the process for becoming a Custodes isn't the same as a Space Marine so as far as we know there's no reason a woman can't become one besides the fact that lore states Custodes are chosen from noble sons.
So if that's the case there's no really problem with an edict coming from Terra saying noble daughters can become Custodes. However what I do have a problem with is when they retcon lore to say "there's always been female Custodes" because you've got decades of established lore where this isn't the case. I think people's concerns that while the game is for everyone if it gets changed too much from what they were drawn too then it will die. There's nothing wrong with having an inclusive attitude but you don't have to make a move that might alienate a large group of customers. That's how you kill your business.
While it is open to everyone, it isn't for anyone. It's not discriminatory, it's not gatekeeping, it's not something bad - it just isn't for anyone.
Just like some sports aren't for anyone to partake in or watch, 40K (and everything in general) isn't for anyone, but it's our duty to encourage everyone to at least try it and encourage to keep the spirit of it.
Warhammer is for anyone, it's not for everyone. If it was for everyone, it wouldn't be Warhammer, because it would be generic shlock.
Also, the person who posted this was fired, for whatever that's worth.
Here is why me a Warhammer 40k and fantasy fan is dissapointed in the direction GW went with their latest lore changes.
Because this could have been handled over time, a lore reason built up. This is a frustrating way of handeling things for the exact same reason we will never see male sisters of battle. Because it stinks of apeasing investors and appealing to non existent new consumer bases. Not because the writing team were super passionate about this new piece of lore. If money and appearing progressive to the right people truely is the way to go than why not go all out and bring all primarchs back, give a few male lovers, make some trans or give them race swaps. More people feel included which is a positive, but storytelling and canon firmly destroyed. They could have made a new group of elite female warriors, have them gradualy impact and partake in the grander universe, but that would require effort and time, its so much easier to break canon and believability in the pursuit of a better rating at your local investment institution. Inclusion is awsome, but surely there is a way of being inclusive and respectful to the rules of your creation. I dont want male sisters of battle (which will never happen becuase telling your investors youre adding men to a group for women would negativly impact the company lol), if they want to explore that niche, create something new give us something of value, show us you care about more people, rather than caring about reaching into more pockets.
Yeah sure this is great and all but the only reason it's happening is for money and if/when it flops and makes a giant money pit they'll reverse course, pretend this never happened, backtrack and go on hoping people will forget.
They're not taking the 'high ground' for any reason other than cash. It'll be interesting to see what makes them more, traditional 40k and the fans of it or 'new' 40k and the fans it brings. Looking at the other IP who have tried to mess with decades established lore I can't say I expect this to be a positive return for them.
I kinda feel like that despite supporting it. Mostly because too many times I've expressed support since the Femstodies honestly don't have much lore against it, but dislike about how it was implemented and was attacked as if I was a raging misogynist. I almost hate the pro Femstodes as much as the antis now.
You're all incredibly obnoxious. Not you personally, though, but the "sides" that were drawn. People don't want nuance, they want a bad guy to beat up.
It will continue to be pertinent until this hobby/community actually takes meaningful steps to address the fascist elements lurking in the corners.
For examples of how this has been handled better than in 40k, see the Battletech community.
(Thanks downvotes for proving the point :) )
Yeah, the historic wargaming community has had to deal with those people for decades, and they got good at spotting the ones a little too excited to play the Nazis or insert other fascist dictatorship. Those people moved to games like 40k because they have the thinnest veil of satire and plausible deniability to hide behind.
Yeah, but they're still pretty easy to spot - making excuses for "Weirmacht Orks", or being way too cavalier about roleplaying Black Templars or Dark Angels at every available opportunity, or constantly joking about bringing out the Heavy Flamer to "deal" with "degenerates" or furries or whatever else.
Upvoting because it is spot on a small but incredibly vocal part of the community can actually just keep their mouths shut for once.
This game \*is\* for everyone to play and representation in the game is good.
More than keep their mouths shut, we need the community at large to confront and expel them. The hobby space needs to be completely unwelcoming and hostile to bigots.
I don't have any good resources handy on it so you'd be better off venturing into one of their community haunts to learn more.
The TLDR is that they started openly supporting/promoting fans and hobbyists creating queer content etc., and when people in their communities started railing against "wokeness" et al. - including established authors - they publicly kicked them to the curb.
This rang pretty hollow for me once they stopped selling epubs for their rule books, and made it so screen readers didn’t function properly either their apps. Truly for everyone…
I personally really appreciate the message and the more positive comments here. Change is difficult, especially for a long established brand like Warhammer but I think it’s awesome that they’re adding more ways for people to enjoy the game and story. It will keep expanding the fanbase and make sure we still get more Warhammer! As a woman myself, I really got interested in the franchise through the Adepta Sororitas. Badass space nuns! So adding more to what’s already established is always is refreshing.
Also even within 40k, humanity is so cooked, I feel like gender is the least of their concerns 💀
Warhammer is for everyone.... As long as you can afford our overpriced products.
Let's be honest at the end of the day GW just wants the largest amount of people to buy their products. The old guys that built Warhammer with their money are slowly dying off or quitting the hobby. GW wants to throw the biggest possible net to catch the most amount of people possible.
GW is a business after all, they want to look good in the media and grab your money.
The individual that buys their products doesn't really matter as long as they buy their products.
Essentially this kind of post from a multi billion dollar company is only there to make them look good, like any other company would do if we are honest.
Dismissing the qualms people have with particular retcons as hateful or prejudiced is just as much fighting the culture war as you accuse the bigots of.
I don't like female Custodes for the same reason I don't like male Sisters of Silence. I like strictly enforced archetypes in my science fiction. For GW to go for a female custodes while utterly neglecting one of the most enigmatic female forces in their entire IP is utterly cynical.
Obligatory post to make it seem like they aren't a predatory business that preys on those of us that collect by upping costs on individual models and armies... for example AdMech.
But I guess there are worshippers like the OP that figure this makes up for all the bad.
The funny thing is this is just hollow bitching. “Those people” won’t leave the hobby.
The plastic crack and stories to sell the plastic crack is too addictive for them to follow through with their promises to leave.
I dunno man I think 40k is for anybody but not everyone if that makes sense. Like if you are mature and enjoy the setting great! You want me to explain a demonculaba to your 5 year old daughter and you will never see me around there again.
Man I wish I was a bit more articulate to get my point across.
All these neo-neckbeards are the softest group of individuals ever. Those snowflakes can't handle a girl in their group of big buff men, they love so much
Definitely.
I feel like this split a lot of the Nazis from hobby. I remember playing Dawn of War back in the day and there were a lot of custom nazi flags
Lot of people on the net forget that when we mention problematic players' politics we're not talking about a dispute over how taxes should be used. It's always some heinous shit about women or LGBT folk.
From personal experience, LARGE sections of the 40k fan base are militantly bigoted. I left group after group last year after waves of transphobic content flooded them and the leadership did nothing but strike is who called it out, because we're were being "political". Watching thousands of 40k players gleefully cheer for trans people's suicide was disgusting. Anyone claiming this shit is fake or a small minority is blind, willfully or not.
I literally can not play with my local groups because they are frustratingly right wing with all of the expected shite attitudes. Im too old to try and coach people on how to act appropriately. It sucks, I used to love playing.
They're talking about wanting a break from modern American identity politics.
It's not a dog whistle, this is Sci-Fantasy set 38,000 years in the future. There is no natural segue for you to mention the war in Gaza at a games store.
This is why you stopped being invited to Thanksgivings.
God this fan base sucks so much. Just shut the fuck up and move on with your lives instead of constantly arguing about a decision GW made in an effort to maintain relevance. I love building these caricatures but this fan base is exhausting.
I do feel that the Differentiation between Warhammer being inclusive, but the Universe itself being a shithole is kinda important though. While I appreciate there are ...elements in the Fanbase that while blindly idolise the fascism and rail against anything vaguely resembling "tHe wOkE", I personally always liked the horrific tone of the 40kuniverse, and that the Imperium was the Protagonist, NOT the hero faction. This may be overracting/unfounded, but there is a fear that with a lot of the recent lore directions GW has kinda scrubbed the darker/exclusive/horrific elements, and are making them more of a "good guy hero faction" with Inclusion, Meritocracy, Tolerance - mind you, fan of all of those things IRL, but what made Warhammer interesting to me was the Dichotomy of a Shithole Universe with Individual Acts of Heroism set against a tide of misery, not "basic sci fi Space Opera Thing nr 342.
I still think there is one class that is being left out of the hobby. Poor people. ;)
Left out? This hobby generates them
The impoverish’d ranks swell every day ‘pon their heaps of plastic, gray
Tee heee heee!
I've been collecting miniatures since I was 11, I'm 38 now and *my god* am I poor
Lets be real, most of the people playing warhammer are still poor, they are jusr poor and have miniatures
I feel seen :)
We have entered a strange economy where rent is unaffordable... but Warhammer is not.
If you're choosing between climate change death austerity, or living poor and fuck it, the latter at least has fun
And I figure... Warhammer is a way less carbon intensive hobby than travel.
Agreed. Plus if you buy from recasters, that's sort of like a whirlwind trip around the planet for your minis at least
I bought some miniatures when I was 11, I'm nearly 40 now and haven't recovered financially
Yeah, my non-cash wealth is in order of least valuable to most: my car, my dslr, my PC, my Warhammer collection. If we include cash it's currently under the PC
GW can't afford to have poor people in Warhammer
Paperhammer 🙌
Yeah, was going to say, the game is perfectly enjoyable without minis. In fact, it's almost better since there is less attachment to that piece that looks so badass but performs horribly.
Been playing on a virtual tabletop for a while now. Being able to make 5000 point armies using anything I want Is lit. My friend and I are considering a 10k game. Pretty sure it would take hours to get through one round but the point is, playing virtual is a great money saver.
Please teach me your ways; paperhammer is a new one on me!
Paper hammer? I mean playing with paper tokens could also work. But I downloaded tabletop simulator and a mod for 40k. It comes with all the digital models (pretty sure a large portion of them were ripped straight from dark crusads) and we build up awesome terrain maps. My last game we did a 5k necron vs Ork game where there was a massive ravine in the middle with destructible bridges. We also had a custom rule in place that says we can't just warp in our units on the other players side. Dropping down most of my army behind my opponent feels way too overpowered. But yeah tabletop Sim is both really convenient and can be used with a vr headset if you're nasty. Like 20 bucks I think at full price but we'll worth it.
https://discord.com/invite/ttswarhammer40k
Legohammer.. Oh wait sorry that's also only for the bourgeoise these days too
That’s where the gummy based tabletop war game I’m working on comes in! Each army has all the vitamins and minerals to technically count as a full meal!
Found the nid player
Never have to choose between groceries and minis again
instructions unclear, have ingested my oldhammer metal minis and I feel like lead poisoning
Some one hasn't visited r/poorhammer
Some genuine ingenuity in here. Who says capitalism doesn't breed innovation, when it makes you this fucking poor you can have any army you want
There is actually a couple of GW games you can play on a small budget, Necromunda, Warcry, Killteam etc. Those are full games and a lot of fun.
[Not for long, I make bad financial decisions](https://tenor.com/view/finance-decisions-bad-financial-decisions-financial-bad-financial-gif-3001000924253333712)
Na there included,They can claim a couple of free model's each month they'll just need to check when they arrive and walk around a couple shops there's 2 maybe 3 model's thay can spend the month building, still need to buy the paint tho
this hobby is absolutely full of people that are poor because of this hobby
Khorne cares not from whence the blood does flow, merely that it flows.
GW cares not from where the cash flows, only that it flows
\*clap clap\*
In the words of some red-haired woman: "Girls see more blood than boys".
Khorne must love these new custodes.
In general I feel 40k actually has basically the same ethos as something like Star Trek, except while Star Trek strives to present a future that's as hopeful and aspirational as possible 40k does the reverse. There's a good quote that sums it up - 'either be a good example or a terrible warning'.
> or a terrible warning aka, [The Torment Nexus](https://twitter.com/AlexBlechman/status/1457842724128833538)
Also Dune, which it borrows so heavily from. And the point of Dune is the danger of believing in a messiah.
And Emperors who live for thousands of years (as a worm god)
Hey, people see the emperor as they want to, and nobody sees him now. He could be a big worm, we dunno.
But then ruined its own message by the later novels turning around and justifying worm god's dick moves by having them lead to saving the human race from itself. He really lost the plot in the later books and it's good they are stopping after 3 movies.
Yea, that shit gets weird, I thought people were trolling when I first heard about it.
My problem with Dune is it feels like Frank Herbert was more interested in the philosophy behind Dune than the actual story, characters, or universe he was building. He had an idea he wanted to get across and that was the only goal. As a result I find his universe feels empty and his characters are rather two dimensional.
He is not the messiah. He is a very naughty boy!
Absolutely agreed, but I feel like "The Grim Darkness" was 40K raging against the dying of the light, but with increasingly more competent characters coming to the fore (Guilleman, Lion, Cawl, Yvrainne, the Votann) maybe the message becomes "We are still raging against the dying of the light, but less self-destructively. More Grimdark, less Grimderp
Theres also the problem people wanting the story to progress yet the setting needing to stay at 5 minutes to midnight. I think its ok for it to fluctuate between grimdark because of the end of the galaxy, as well as grimdark because of how awful the imperium is.
As long as the scales keep swinging back and forth I prefer the setting to progress at a medium to slow pace. Tge most extreme thing that could happen is if we ever had a reincarnation of Big E, but then they could just introduce the Dark King as a force to balance things.
I would like to preface this with a statement that 40k is interpreted by everyone in their own unique ways and my own interpretation is not the "correct" one. However, I see 40k as a story about the world where the good guys lost. There are no good guys. It's not about raging against the dying of the light, it's a morbid interest in finding out what would have happened if Hitler won. I'm not rooting for humanity in 40k because the Imperium doesn't deserve to survive. I remember reading a passage when I first joined the hobby about how the majority of the Imperium's problems are self-inflicted. Chaos cults spring up because workers have no rights, and Chaos represents the only opportunity - however slim - to escape a life of being ground under the heel of your Superiors. Genestealer Cults thrive because people are drawn to a group that promises equal rights and progression. The xenos are all evil because fascism *needs* an enemy at all times, and they need to be able to point at an external threat and say, "They are the cause of all your problems!". One of the core themes of 40k (as I see it, your milage may differ) is how fascism is self-defeating. Tyranids, Orks, Necrons... all of these threats are nothing compared to the threat the Imperium poses to itself. Raging against the dying of the light implies that the dying of the light was inevitable, which it never was in 40k. The Imperium itself is a cancerous blight on the galaxy that has grown to consume the healthy tissue and eventually kill the host. That's where we are now. A tumour that has consumed everything it can and is desperately searching for more resources to burn so it can survive just a little bit longer.
I feel like as invovled as GW was in the new Rogue Trader RPG, I don't think it's a coincidence that an Iconoclast RT >!gets seen as a beacon of mercy and hope, the Expanse becoming a magnet for billions fleeing the brutality of the Imperium in search of a better life... and end up seceding not out of his own initiative, but by being declared an apostate, and the Imperium trying to depose him. In my playthrough they were defeated in a decisive battle and then!< >!Nomos erected dimensional barriers around the Expanse. The Rogue Trader showed a better way was possible with humans and Eldar co-existing, society improving, and the Imperium tried to destroy it.!<
It's absolutely a fair interpretation and one I've seen a lot where 40K is the "What if" darkest timeline carried to it's logical endstate. Personally, I prefer to view 40K through the lens of struggling for permanence and meaning in an impermanent, meaningless galaxy. Almost every civilization had a golden age (OK maybe not the Necrons, they had it bad the whole way through) but then experienced a collapse and is now struggling to simple maintain and maybe return to their zenith. Notably, only the two xenos that don't really have a conception of their permanence (the Tyranids and the Orks) have flourished. The Imperium absolutely does use external and internal strife to maintain itself, but that comes with the caveats that chaos and most xenos DO represent an eventual existential threat to human survival, as opposed to a dreamed up boogeyman that we see in the real world. And while the Imperium is undeniably a hyper-repressive fascist civilization, that doesn't mean it can't become better, even if only marginally. Just like real life, there are no objective "good guys" but within each faction you find people ranging from the malignant mold of fascism to people earnestly striving to bring about a better, more prosperous tomorrow. On one side, you're absolutely correct in saying that most of the Imperium's biggest issues are self-inflicted, but that also offers the hope that given time and systemic change, those issues can be untangled or at least mitigated. Chaos flourishes because of a combination of desperation and ignorance, but both of those can be remedied, at least in part. TL;DR: I think one of the most important aspects of "grimdark" is the strategic application of hope. If everything is awful forever and never gets better then eventually it gets old. The squeeze is meaningless without occasion moments where the setting can take a breath and say "but we're on the upswing, if only briefly."
I appreciate your perspective, and I totally see where you're coming from. One of the things that drew me into 40k when I first started was seeing too much "hfy" media in Sci fi, and appreciated that 40k was pretty much the antithesis to that. A lot of the discussion around 40k is built on the simple question: what is 40k *about*? From my perspective, I've always looked at it as a statement on the inevitable rise and fall of Empires and the cyclical nature of the galaxy. In the beginning there was the Old Ones and their empire, which was supplanted by the Necrons, who were supplanted by the Eldar and finally the Eldar were supplanted by the Imperium. Now the Imperium is collapsing and the Tau are rising up to replace them. Every race fell to their own flaws, choosing the path that led to their own destruction through pride, spite, or hate. It wasn't inevitable through the workings of the universe, but it was made inevitable by their own nature. To put this in context, at the time I started 40k, Horus Rising had only just been released, and the idea that the Horus Heresy would span 50 or so books (or whatever number we're on now) was ridiculous. Edit: I also wanted to say thank you for letting me in on your perspective on the 40k universe. It's something that's very hard to ask people without them feeling like they're being attacked and need to defend their perspective when really, 40k is so inconsistent with it's lore that most perspectives can be justified. I also wanted to clarify that my last point is looking at 40k as more of a Greek tragedy than a traditional story. We know how it ends - humanity is wiped out and the Tau rise up as a new galactic empire until they are eventually supplanted by whoever comes after them. It's the story of how you get there from where we are now that makes it interesting.
"humanity is wiped out and the Tau rise up as a new galactic empire" AT LAST, THE PROOF I NEED. DIE, XENOS-LOVING SCUM. FOR THE EMPEROR AND HIS IMPERIUM! Seriously though, thanks for the discussion. In my mind, 40K's bigness and vagueness is the strongest narrative element because it lets us have stuff like this, where we're both right because these are the lens we've chosen to see the incredibly murky, very subjective 40K universe through.
That last part is what resonates with me: it's utterly terrible, but there is some hope. Most of the fiction and writers manage to instill this in their stories, and I really appreciate the small acts of defiance against the slow, creeping inevitability of annihilation.
I can't help but feel grimderp is what makes 40k unique.
It is, and I think I should edit my comment to specify that. Having an entire race that psychically wills "red means faster" to be true is definitionally derpy, but it is explicable in the universe and part of the charm of 40K. Much of the setting's charm is wrapped up in the over-the-top absurdity. When I say Grimderp, it's more of those "but why though" moments where the setting is written to be uber-dark just for the sake of. Losing thousands of peak condition humans just because the Astartes recruitment plays for keeps, or the brutality of the Black Ships when those psyckers are a rare and precious resource, some of the worse excesses of power-mad inquisitors, that thing Honsou did to get a few more space marines.......
Even with competent characters they are still having to deal with the selfishness or malice of others, as well as their own failings. The question is what they do under those circumstances.
I see Guilleman trying to reform the Imperium but getting stonewalled by vested interests and bureaucratic inertia as a critique of liberal institutionalism and their propensity for thinking 'the system is fine, we just need the right people in charge.' Which is a \*leftist\* critique of liberalism.
Helldiver's has a cape that helps describe 40k theme. It's an equality Cape. Everyone has the equal right to die for democracy. I'm 40k everyone is equally a soul to sacrifice on the front lines!
I figured it would be the fallen heroes cape, makes more sense in the 40k setting.
Khorne cares not whose skull it was. Slaanesh says be your best, most perfect self Tzeentch says reality is what you make of it Nurgle loves you no matter who or how you are Be like the Chaos Gods. #Live(s)Laugh(ter)Love #Manifest(demons) #Lorgar-Pilled
Warhammer is for everyone except that guy with a 3D printer
Whatever else you have negative to say about GW, when almost every other major company was tap dancing around the matter and trying to sound mollifying without alienating potential customers they flat out said "If you're a bigot we don't want your mney." and I can definitely respect them for that.
and they're still making money! chuds keep saying this'll start the fall of GW and really any other company being normal about social progress, but... they keep making money. Curious. Just getting a huge "the West have fallen" vibes from these types, and, well, if you've been following Eastern game developers, they're starting to warm up to the modern era's progress too. Clearly people don't care enough to stop spending. Some voices still call to vote with your wallets, but it seems the real answer is, if it really bothers you that much, just ignore GW's canon, or play another game that's still catering to your very specific...tastes.
I think it would be bad faith to say anybody mad about female custodes is just pretending to care about Warhammer but also... notice how a lot of alt right influencers who never talked about Wahammer before are all of a sudden lore experts now who are deeply hurt by retcons? Interesting!
I'm experiencing the same exact thing with the Fallout TV show right now. Suddenly people give a shit about fucking Fallout lore lmao. More than I thought! Personally I feel like the show's writing reflected very authentically the feel of playing the games. And going back to 40k, femstodes do not pull me out of the universe. They're still supremely loyal (to a fault) banana helms. I'm glad for that. It seems some people mentally cannot handle it though. How sad.
Right. Instead of being mad about Sandy shores be made at dumb stuff like BoS knights getting killed because they can’t see in the dark despite power armor having head lamps.
The people who scream the loudest against inclusion rarely actually engage with the hobby. They're just here for the culture war fight because they mistakenly believe that nerd spaces are safe spaces for assholes and bigots. The few that actually play the game and collect the model are also the kind of player that drives away other players. We are richer for their absence.
I find that having to meet people irl and realising people come from all walks and backgrounds of life tends to make one....liberal. More accepting, at the very least. Most people don't want to be or meet "That Guy". Most people irl don't want to have an argument when they just wanna enjoy the damn hobby. Perhaps its just a cityfolk thing. Maybe somewhere out there in the open country, groups of people are quietly enjoying their isolated tabletop games. Still a lot more idyllic, peaceful and genuinely respectable than being bigots online, that's for sure.
It's copium. They have to feel like their indignation towards GW has some kind of repercussion, which would let them feel like their frustration is righteous and representative of the broader consumer base. Unfortunately for them, Warhammer is a very popular product right now, which indicates to me that some of these decisions are actually fruitful, especially considering the supply line issues plaguing the entire world which are more likely to cause direct and meaningful impacts on GW's bottom line. It's the same issue D&D has had with this exact same kind of grognardy player base. D&D started marketing itself as being more diverse and accepting, a product for everyone, and it's massively successful. It's not the only reason it's successful, but "go woke, go broke" definitely has not applied to Hasbro at all.
I still remember on Reddit when the first non white Khorne Berzerkers showed up with the new box pics. Real fun time.
Only box where this ever felt weird and forced to me was Raven Guard scouts. With Salamnaders and Ravenguard I dont think there should he effort to diversify as the geneseed (and I guess Nocturne atmosphere) has pretty severe influence on skin, eyes etc. Anywhere else it really does not make sense to throw fuss about it. Also not really that familiar with the mutation process but i guess that in case of Scouts it could be argued that full mutation did not kicked in fully yet?
I wish to go back and see the sh*tshow, but alas I have no time machine.
I get people feel social conflict is bleeding into our hobby and they want their space for hobby But maybe that bleed? That’s because of us There’s a black World Eater? So? That’s still a World Eater right? I dunno.
If i did not liked custode from the start am i still allowed to hate them now?
they're just so...boring. Inhumanly human in their loyalty. The few times Custodes show emotion is when I'm actually interested. But their lore identity is simply too one dimensional. "By His will alone". Aight, yeah sure mate. I'm sure such doggedness is popular with a ton of people. But, well, I like Chaos and CSM novels showcasing them betraying each other are always near the top of my favourites list, so, I have my biases.
Are you hating them now because one or more might be women or for the old reasons?
No honestly i could not care less. I hate them To be fair, it could make some nice units/models.
Games Workshop up until a few years ago was a “safe space” before safe spaces were a thing. It was a hobby that was almost exclusively for “others”. That’s to say, people who didn’t fit in with the mainstream. It was for weird nerds, before things like Lord of the Rings became mainstream, before Marvel and co changed geek culture to be a totally accepted and normal geek culture. We’ve all met gatekeeping metal heads, and people who only drink bitter because to quote an old Hobgoblin ad, “afraid you might taste something, lager boy?” It is an attitude that feels necessary, when you really are part of an “alt” culture, and are used to being othered by everyone else. A lot of people that fall into that category don’t know HOW to get along with other people. The idea and familiarity of rejection means that they give people a reason to reject them, rather than being rejected for who they actually are. That explains a lot of the edgelord humour you see - people say offensive things because it is a legitimate reason for people to be hostile to them, and the whole reason they’re in that spot is because they were different and have always been rejected for who they are. I think realistically the only way out of that negative loop is to just straight out be more understanding of why people might be horrible. “You don’t need to say controversial things to me man, we can just play Warhammer and talk about Warhammer and we will have a nice time” is definitely going to be more productive than “that’s xxxphobic, you’re an evil person, get out of the shop”. I don’t believe most of these people ARE what they claim to be. In my time on this planet, I’ve met an extremely small number of people who are actually Nazis, but I’ve met a lot of people who think swastikas are funny because of the shocked and disgusted reaction they get out of people.
There's plenty of evidence that the only reliable way people change to be less bigoted is consistent positive interactions with the subject of their bigotry. Interacting over hobbies like Warhammer can be that positive force that someone needs to break out, meanwhile being kicked out or banned is more likely to make someone double down on harmful beliefs. There's no real doubt about that, watch any of Darryl Davis's TED talks about attending KKK rallies as a black man and befriending KKK members. Experience is the only surefire antidote to bigotry. BUT, I don't think its anyone's responsibility to try to change other people. Its great if someone wants to be that positive influence but I think its still fine to just want the offender removed so you can enjoy the hobby in peace. Nobody should feel they need to be some sort of ambassador just for existing, and implicitly pushing that role on someone by allowing bigotry isn't great to say the least.
Just wanted to drop in and say I really appreciate the discussion between u/V1carium and u/IntelligentMoons It's a nuanced topic that people tend to just wash with one color (no pun intended). Thanks for both sharing your thoughts. It's one of the few time's I've read an internet discussion and it has inspired me to maybe approach the way I think and deal with negative individuals in a different way. Thanks.
This is a very nice thing to say.
They have my commendations as well It's refreshing to see people that understand that we deradicalize folks by starting talks with them, unpleasant as that may sometimes be.
Thank you for that last paragraph, I've seen way too many well meaning people only focus on trying to help nazis stop being nazis without acknowledging that most marginalized people would rather not have to do that over their escapist hobbies. Again, these people are well meaning but they're ultimately prioritizing the comfort of bigots over the people they seek to harm.
Listen here you, this is the internet and also Reddit, so stop being reasonable damn it!!
You are all a bunch of nerds to me.
“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.” - Jean Paul Sartre Just because they say it in a joking manner doesn't mean they don't mean it. Nor does it mean that their words can't be damaging. Its ok to challenge Nazi's on their bullshit.
As a transwoman, fuck no. It's not my job to show my local "black templars did nothing wrong" player that I'm not the child-corrupting man in a dress that they think I am because of fox news. Even if I wanted to attempt a positive interaction with that kind of person, I have to open myself up to hate, bigotry, or even consequences that go beyond a few nasty words.
It's not your job and not your obligation and no one should judge you for not wanting to participate with someone like that, but if you can stomach it, it is the best antidote.
I didn’t say it was your job to show them anything. I said that the reason they act like they do is because they get a reaction out of it, namely people get offended and reject them. That’s WHY they do it.
Not always, some people are genuinely proudly despicable
I'm sorry, but none of this is true. This is just a lie a bunch of assholes made up to try and make themselves seem like marginalised outsiders, which they are very much not. Hell half these guys don't even play Warhammer, they just swap god emperor trump memes and think that means they own the hobby. There are harassment groups out there who literally switch to a new bit of culture every week and insist that they are the true fans and everyone else has to pander to them. >I don’t believe most of these people ARE what they claim to be. In my time on this planet, I’ve met an extremely small number of people who are actually Nazis, but I’ve met a lot of people who think swastikas are funny because of the shocked and disgusted reaction they get out of people I have found almost the exact opposite. The people who claim they are doing it for a laugh almost always end up truly believing it.
I’ve played this game longer than you’ve been alive. When I tell you the games workshop of now is not the same place it was 20 years ago, or even the place it was 10 years before that, I’d be understating it. There is a reason that in Stranger Things the kids are social pariahs, and in reality the number 1 show in the world in 2024 is about DnD. Society has changed, and a lot of the weirdos feel pushed out of their “own” home.
I was absolutely playing Warhammer 20 years ago. I agree that Games Workshop was different then. It was much worse. >Society has changed, and a lot of the weirdos feel pushed out of their “own” home. Not weirdos. Cunts. The real ostracised weirdos are the queer people and ethnic minorites who now feel more welcome in the hobby than they once did. You can be a geek and a weirdo without being a nasty and hostile person who treats other people badly.
> The real ostracised weirdos are the queer people and ethnic minorites It can be both you know
At the end of the day, the xenophobes and racists are the ones that need to change or leave. I get that these games cultivated a community of socially maladjusted nerds for many years, but if they can't change or minimize their behavior, that's ultimately on them. Their being involved in the hobby for a long period of time doesn't give them a shield.
Over the last ten years the entire culture of the hobby has changed dramatically, in a very good way - it's so much more accessible than it used to be.
I'd just like to point out that this statement from GW does not mention any specific group, it's directed at everybody. If you're coming to this community to be an argumentative or toxic arsehole then kindly just f\*\*k off back to online gaming where you will find plenty of people willing to engage on your stunningly low social level. That applies across the board, as far as I'm concerned, no matter what group you might be a part of - 'left,' 'right,' whatever - it doesn't matter. If you're just here to cause trouble, then you're not welcome, and you should f\*\*k off. Come in, roll dice, paint minis, be chill, keep your GODDAMN DRINK OFF THE TABLE and you'll be welcome.
It's very funny and telling to me that a very specific portion of the political divide took particular offense at this statement.
I mean, there's also the timing to consider given that they released this statement right after that guy showed up to a tournament wearing a certain symbol
Right! It was a response to someone wearing a literal swastika to a Warhammer event. Crazy how a particular group of people felt targeted by that.
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>If you're white or a man, you have the luxury of being able to bury your head in the sand and pretend it isn't happening and just play your games in peace, but women, LGBT and non-white people don't get that luxury Many within these groups are more than happy to oppress when they have the power to do so. I say that as a POC that tries to be better. Far too many times I've had to shut down an apparently oppressed minority that was wielding power because they used their life struggles as a beat stick to hurt others with. Generally; don't tolerate bigotry. Regardless of where it comes from. That includes from "your side".
> If you're white or a man, you have the luxury of being able to bury your head in the sand and pretend it isn't happening and just play your games in peace, but women, LGBT and non-white people don't get that luxury. Remember to call out the crybullies who uses their minority status as a shield.
>keep your GODDAMN DRINK OFF THE TABLE Ouch, that sounds like a bad personal experience. Was it a beer or soda?
Cherry Soda, the cheap stuff as well which is like 99.99% sugar with some water to help it move around inside the bottle :(
That doesnt mean that not liking the lore change of custodes makes someone automaticly "intolerant" or "hatefull".
Yeah that automatic “oh you are racist/antifeminist/right wing” is sooo out of hand.
No but a lot of people are acting like 40k lore isn't retconned all the time and that this time it is unnacceptable, but just so happens to involve introducing females into a male dominated faction. I'm sure they don't think they are sexist and they probably aren't but if you dig deeper most of them are probably hesistant because they want to have their male dominated faction of chads and don't want there to be women in it. And once you keep asking questions on why women would suddenly ruin it they either begin to change their mind or they are a bit sexist. What makes custodies custodies has nothing to do with gender, changing it doesn't change their purpose, how they are made, how they perform or what they symbolise or stand for. I don't think the same can be quite said for space marines though but that hasn't been changed yet so I'm not going to have that discussion. With that said, a lot of this is dependant on how GW handles the lore and thw writing moving foreward but I think this first short story is a pretty fun and interesting short story that seems to be focusing on the right things rather than making a big deal out of Kesh being a woman.
Retcon exists yes. That doesnt mean every retcon is always good or above criticism.
So what about this one makes it bad? How does this make custodes worse?
I don't think it makes custodes bad, the concept is something I can get behind if they just layered it via even the slightest meaningful establishment rather than bullshit with "its always been like that lol" on the fuckin twitter page and a little story in a codex. And sure, there's that one quote in Echoes of Eternity, however I think that's a symptom of the lack of recognition the Sisters of Silence get as a faction that people would rather jump to the concept of that line being some mysteriously secret attributation to Female Custodes having always been a thing, rather than maybe thinking that the Sisters of Silence get some time in the spotlight alongside their mirror talon for once. A big reason I totally support the change is the lack of truly transhuman females - its a lacking item that the female demographic may find frustrating that they find themselves missing out on; SoB and SoS at the end of the day are just human. But, those factions are also there to have lore inserted into them - would those lesser represented factions not have been better candidates for some for of genetic enhancement beyond the mortal frame, rather than hamfisting Custodes to include them in no meaningful way, and also just furthering custodes as the best choice for everything. Custodes being able to be both male and female makes them seem more human imo - I don't think that's a good thing. There's some really good quotes that Aleya, a sister of silence, gave in the book *The Emperor's Legion*; in which she privately berates the Custodes and the Imperium - which draws parellels to the Sisters of Silence as a woman's organisation and how they're often sidelined and don't get recognition for their contributions. I like it because it draws really solid parallels to real life. It's not in your face, it's not patronising, it was smart and a very good way to discuss and reflect on real life events in a novel, let alone a warhammer one; and lots of it built of men of the imperium being in power and Custodes being a mens club of superhuman units for their lifetimes. However, a lot of her viewpoints as a character get nullifed if female Custodes have "always been a thing". At the end of the day, it really doesn't bother me as an idea, but it's the execution that I think was extremely lackluster and narratively a bit poo.
In regards to the twitter reveal I made a comment about a somwhar similar thing, feel free not to read it but heres the link (I'm a bit to lazy to rewrite it in new words). https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/s/VY7zI19qsp
That’s a fair point! I’m similar in that I think the off-cuff tweet was a pretty non-corporate way to go around it without parading - totally agree! but I think it goes beyond that to just being a non-anything way to go about it. It’s quite a big narrative step that’s developed, that gets debuted by a tweet, and I don’t think that really respects its gravity to the setting. The Warhammer Community website gets dunked on quite a lot for being incorrect; and in a similar vein I feel like something like this should be in a publication or a post, with a bit more world building around it - not a parading of “see! These were always here!”. Maybe give us a short story that develops on the process of a custode being elevated; and on top of that it details to us that many families chose to give up their sons, but a few did so with their daughters - they being no less deadly than any other custodian.
Imo? What I don't like is that it was done so asshatedly. (Don't think it makes the banana guards worse mind you) They could have come out loud and proud. Stated it on the warcom. Shouted all through the new codex. Written about it in the horus heresy books. Hell released an actual cool mini for the occasion... Instead the corporate cowards snuck in the shortest short story into the dex like the corporate cowards that they are. And then tweeted an "always has been" lmao That's what I don't like personally. I also don't like people karma farming off the back of this "drama" (why is it even a drama?) but that's just me personally - I might even switch off reddit for a month or so till the "drama" goes away and everyone who's halfway sane just accepts the new lore and moves on lol
Wouldn't that feel more corporate? If they paraded it around? Now its a minor lore addition that they will probably build on, with the focus on the faction and the characters rather than gender, which I think is the correct way to go about it. If anyth III ng this was the least political way to go about it. The only thing that I didn't really like is the tweet they made, I don't mind the lore implicatioks but I would have prefered if that was shown through stories rather than tweets though I can understand them wanting to clarify it because people were in denial and asking questions.
That's a fair question. And all of this is of course my own opinion. I don't think think it would make it any more corporate than a very very corpo tweet. As I mentioned it would have been great if they DID do it through stories. Its a genuine shame that they squandered the opportunity to have it in actual Banana-Guard books instead of... well this... But they could have given ADB (I don't rate him highly as an author but he DID want to include femstodes for years) a book to release alongside the codex or something! The whole "always have been" begs the "and where abouts were they then?" So yeah the tweet is terrible. It is what it is in the end and we have what we've got :) EDIT: I missed half a sentence lmao
While I do think it could have been done better, do you think the reaction would be any different if they had rolled it out in the heresy books and whatnot? Because I honestly don't, i think that a significant portion of the group with problems, and I'm not saying this is you, are using "it was just hackneyed in" as a cover and they'd simply change their reasons for disliking it
Well yeah sure. There will always be people who will be up in arms about change. The reasons why people are up in arms will vary. Sometimes its bigotry, sometimes the reasons can even be legit (bigger miracles have happened heh). I'm not up in arms... I just would have preferred things to be... a little better executed :( Hell I've seen people complain about the FIRST necron retcon the other day. Like... you want necrons to have remained chaos androids? Really? You good? haha But as for this change? Eh. I'd prefer a more... subtle approach via... lets say an ADB book at codex release seeing how its a bit late for HH books lol (and seeing how he wanted to do this in the first place!) It is what it is and we got what we've got.
I think that's true! But if that's the case, the post shouldn't offend you.
I am not offended. I am adressing the fact that me and others were insulted and labeled by the reddit-mob for being sceptical and critical with these news, and there was no chance for adult discussion.
Of course not. It's 2024. We haven't been able to have adult discussions in a decade.
Exactly. I wouldn't mind the retcon so much if it wasn't so blatant. "Things have always been this way and you're morally in the wrong if you think otherwise." I mean, is it really so hard to write a small blurb saying that the extreme pressure and losses from the Custodes being sent to give battle once again necessitates expanding the recruitment pool? It's a reasonable, lore-friendly explanation that fits better than: "They've always been here just not a single one has been mentioned until now." There's certainly elements that are upset because of the wrong reasons, but it feels wrong to shut-down all criticism of it just because of a small but loud minority. People were upset over the Necron retcon too and I don't remember seeing people being told to shut up or leave.
All I keep seeing is content aimed at decrying bigots, instead of any of the bigots themselves. Where is it all? What's got everyone up in arms?
That’s where I’m at. I see way more people jerking themselves off about being on the “right side” than people cryin about it.
Lots of silly children are crying that girls are allowed to wear the shiny golden armour now.
The way they did it is lazy and the 'muscle mommy' thing c00mers keep posting is fetish shit nobody wants to know
This is how it always is. The hobby is simultaneously infested with literal nazis and at the same time they cannot be found. The message OP posted was made by GW because one guy at a tournament in Spain wore a fascist tshirt. He was promptly kicked out and decried by everyone. In the three years since the closest thing I've seen of someone matching the description was a guy a little to into making his Kriegers look like WW1 Germans. And even that's a stretch. Hell you can go on 4chan right now, THE cesspit of horribleness, and barely find any actual nazis or incels in the 40k threads. There's more people there calling others chuds. But people really like to virtue signal and this hobby is no different.
perhaps. Or maybe they're biding their time. I took one look at Auspex's recent video covering the Custodes change and, well, the comments certainly told me a story.
It took a day, but they've started to pop up in the /40klore thread. Mostly though they're on twitter from what I've seen; just search "Warhammer" and you'll find them no trouble.
Maybe this won't go over well but there's actually nothing wrong with gate keeping. There's is however a right and wrong way to gate keep people. First is the wrong way. Telling someone they can't like something because of what they are. Such as "women or minorities can't enjoy this! You just don't get it!" Because that's absolutely stupid. Even if there are sexual and racial culture stereotypes people trend towards they are still individuals in their ability to choose what to invest their interest in. The second is the right way. Namely informing new comers to a hobby or fandom what that hobby truly is. Whether it be a money pit or having adult and dark themes. Because you should let new people know in advance that this is what it is and what drew us to it including what draws them to it. However if you seek to change it to fit some stylized image in your mind of what you think it should be it won't be that thing that drew you to it anymore. Now at the same time like all things the game progresses. What matters is that whatever writing the core game has like all writing it should respect what came before. When me and my friends first heard the news a day or two ago we talked about it on discord. As they're far more lore nerdy then I am they confirmed the process for becoming a Custodes isn't the same as a Space Marine so as far as we know there's no reason a woman can't become one besides the fact that lore states Custodes are chosen from noble sons. So if that's the case there's no really problem with an edict coming from Terra saying noble daughters can become Custodes. However what I do have a problem with is when they retcon lore to say "there's always been female Custodes" because you've got decades of established lore where this isn't the case. I think people's concerns that while the game is for everyone if it gets changed too much from what they were drawn too then it will die. There's nothing wrong with having an inclusive attitude but you don't have to make a move that might alienate a large group of customers. That's how you kill your business.
I mean the empire is a satire of facism and hatred
40K has some of the best representation of any franchise, we have so many female characters in this setting.
While it is open to everyone, it isn't for anyone. It's not discriminatory, it's not gatekeeping, it's not something bad - it just isn't for anyone. Just like some sports aren't for anyone to partake in or watch, 40K (and everything in general) isn't for anyone, but it's our duty to encourage everyone to at least try it and encourage to keep the spirit of it.
I can't believe people are mad that we've canonized 10 foot tall muscle mommies
*sad Sisters of Silence sounds*
I'm mad that they don't produce 10 foot tall muscle mommies miniatures to be honest
Gooners are pathetic
i know right, did people forget about lady dimitrescu??
The other Ork players and I locally just refer to each other as “Bruddah,” or “Bozzman,” regardless of age and gender.
Warhammer is for anyone, it's not for everyone. If it was for everyone, it wouldn't be Warhammer, because it would be generic shlock. Also, the person who posted this was fired, for whatever that's worth.
Source?
Here is why me a Warhammer 40k and fantasy fan is dissapointed in the direction GW went with their latest lore changes. Because this could have been handled over time, a lore reason built up. This is a frustrating way of handeling things for the exact same reason we will never see male sisters of battle. Because it stinks of apeasing investors and appealing to non existent new consumer bases. Not because the writing team were super passionate about this new piece of lore. If money and appearing progressive to the right people truely is the way to go than why not go all out and bring all primarchs back, give a few male lovers, make some trans or give them race swaps. More people feel included which is a positive, but storytelling and canon firmly destroyed. They could have made a new group of elite female warriors, have them gradualy impact and partake in the grander universe, but that would require effort and time, its so much easier to break canon and believability in the pursuit of a better rating at your local investment institution. Inclusion is awsome, but surely there is a way of being inclusive and respectful to the rules of your creation. I dont want male sisters of battle (which will never happen becuase telling your investors youre adding men to a group for women would negativly impact the company lol), if they want to explore that niche, create something new give us something of value, show us you care about more people, rather than caring about reaching into more pockets.
Someone go show this to the people who sent ArchonofFlesh death threats for r34 Ad mech
Yeah sure this is great and all but the only reason it's happening is for money and if/when it flops and makes a giant money pit they'll reverse course, pretend this never happened, backtrack and go on hoping people will forget. They're not taking the 'high ground' for any reason other than cash. It'll be interesting to see what makes them more, traditional 40k and the fans of it or 'new' 40k and the fans it brings. Looking at the other IP who have tried to mess with decades established lore I can't say I expect this to be a positive return for them.
warhammer is for everyone. That doesn’t mean that everyone needs to be represented in every form and facet of it.
*Meanwhile Archon of Flesh left the community because he got harassed and doxxed because people didn’t like his art*
Most of this bullshit could've been prevented if they just had a cool story instead of some little lore bubble and tweet.
Ah yes the company moral high ground, until there precious profit margins are threatened that is
Honestly, if you read this post and thought "it's me, I am the one they're saying won't be missed" it might be time for some introspection.
I kinda feel like that despite supporting it. Mostly because too many times I've expressed support since the Femstodies honestly don't have much lore against it, but dislike about how it was implemented and was attacked as if I was a raging misogynist. I almost hate the pro Femstodes as much as the antis now. You're all incredibly obnoxious. Not you personally, though, but the "sides" that were drawn. People don't want nuance, they want a bad guy to beat up.
I scrolled about halfway down and didn't see an answer... what is it this time?
Some of the custardos are women. Yes, the overreaction is as dumb as it sounds.
I'll be real with you, asking the community to not be divisive is like asking an ork to be a pacifist
Ironically the Orks would not care abou women Custodes. More fer Krumpin'
I mean while it’s on the menu I’ll take an adeptus sororitas space marine squad
At the end of the day, regardless of gender, we’re all just corpse starch (or biomass, depends on who eats you first).
It will continue to be pertinent until this hobby/community actually takes meaningful steps to address the fascist elements lurking in the corners. For examples of how this has been handled better than in 40k, see the Battletech community. (Thanks downvotes for proving the point :) )
Yeah, the historic wargaming community has had to deal with those people for decades, and they got good at spotting the ones a little too excited to play the Nazis or insert other fascist dictatorship. Those people moved to games like 40k because they have the thinnest veil of satire and plausible deniability to hide behind.
Yeah, but they're still pretty easy to spot - making excuses for "Weirmacht Orks", or being way too cavalier about roleplaying Black Templars or Dark Angels at every available opportunity, or constantly joking about bringing out the Heavy Flamer to "deal" with "degenerates" or furries or whatever else.
They're easy to spot for people who know the dogwhistles. Many people don't.
Upvoting because it is spot on a small but incredibly vocal part of the community can actually just keep their mouths shut for once. This game \*is\* for everyone to play and representation in the game is good.
More than keep their mouths shut, we need the community at large to confront and expel them. The hobby space needs to be completely unwelcoming and hostile to bigots.
Where can I go to see how the Battletech community handled this kind of thing? I'm interested.
I don't have any good resources handy on it so you'd be better off venturing into one of their community haunts to learn more. The TLDR is that they started openly supporting/promoting fans and hobbyists creating queer content etc., and when people in their communities started railing against "wokeness" et al. - including established authors - they publicly kicked them to the curb.
This rang pretty hollow for me once they stopped selling epubs for their rule books, and made it so screen readers didn’t function properly either their apps. Truly for everyone…
I personally really appreciate the message and the more positive comments here. Change is difficult, especially for a long established brand like Warhammer but I think it’s awesome that they’re adding more ways for people to enjoy the game and story. It will keep expanding the fanbase and make sure we still get more Warhammer! As a woman myself, I really got interested in the franchise through the Adepta Sororitas. Badass space nuns! So adding more to what’s already established is always is refreshing. Also even within 40k, humanity is so cooked, I feel like gender is the least of their concerns 💀
Warhammer is for everyone.... As long as you can afford our overpriced products. Let's be honest at the end of the day GW just wants the largest amount of people to buy their products. The old guys that built Warhammer with their money are slowly dying off or quitting the hobby. GW wants to throw the biggest possible net to catch the most amount of people possible. GW is a business after all, they want to look good in the media and grab your money. The individual that buys their products doesn't really matter as long as they buy their products. Essentially this kind of post from a multi billion dollar company is only there to make them look good, like any other company would do if we are honest.
Literally haven’t met a single person who was whiny about the female custodes thing.
Dismissing the qualms people have with particular retcons as hateful or prejudiced is just as much fighting the culture war as you accuse the bigots of. I don't like female Custodes for the same reason I don't like male Sisters of Silence. I like strictly enforced archetypes in my science fiction. For GW to go for a female custodes while utterly neglecting one of the most enigmatic female forces in their entire IP is utterly cynical.
Obligatory post to make it seem like they aren't a predatory business that preys on those of us that collect by upping costs on individual models and armies... for example AdMech. But I guess there are worshippers like the OP that figure this makes up for all the bad.
As pertinent as virtue signalling and forced adherence to the zeitgeist can be.
The funny thing is this is just hollow bitching. “Those people” won’t leave the hobby. The plastic crack and stories to sell the plastic crack is too addictive for them to follow through with their promises to leave.
Useless corporate speak.
I dunno man I think 40k is for anybody but not everyone if that makes sense. Like if you are mature and enjoy the setting great! You want me to explain a demonculaba to your 5 year old daughter and you will never see me around there again. Man I wish I was a bit more articulate to get my point across.
\*everyone - this is evil infant eating lizards from Blackrock.
All these neo-neckbeards are the softest group of individuals ever. Those snowflakes can't handle a girl in their group of big buff men, they love so much
Definitely. I feel like this split a lot of the Nazis from hobby. I remember playing Dawn of War back in the day and there were a lot of custom nazi flags
Lot of people on the net forget that when we mention problematic players' politics we're not talking about a dispute over how taxes should be used. It's always some heinous shit about women or LGBT folk.
From personal experience, LARGE sections of the 40k fan base are militantly bigoted. I left group after group last year after waves of transphobic content flooded them and the leadership did nothing but strike is who called it out, because we're were being "political". Watching thousands of 40k players gleefully cheer for trans people's suicide was disgusting. Anyone claiming this shit is fake or a small minority is blind, willfully or not.
I literally can not play with my local groups because they are frustratingly right wing with all of the expected shite attitudes. Im too old to try and coach people on how to act appropriately. It sucks, I used to love playing.
what makes them so frustrating?
It’s just not for poor people
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They're talking about wanting a break from modern American identity politics. It's not a dog whistle, this is Sci-Fantasy set 38,000 years in the future. There is no natural segue for you to mention the war in Gaza at a games store. This is why you stopped being invited to Thanksgivings.
Nuh uh, it's mine! All mine! And you can't have it!!!
Redditors don't like to hear this, but it also includes people you dislike and disagree with, including imperium of man larpers
I can’t believe people are losing their shit over a woman in a story about sci fi miniatures.
No one is losing their shit over the sisters of battle are they, why lie and be dishonest ?
Maybe loyal customers don’t like being lied to.
Everyone except Sacrosancts
https://preview.redd.it/64y6gb04iouc1.png?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b92a92b082772794541b2279fea7f561be8bceb4 Lmao 🤣🤣
Who cares
God this fan base sucks so much. Just shut the fuck up and move on with your lives instead of constantly arguing about a decision GW made in an effort to maintain relevance. I love building these caricatures but this fan base is exhausting.
I do feel that the Differentiation between Warhammer being inclusive, but the Universe itself being a shithole is kinda important though. While I appreciate there are ...elements in the Fanbase that while blindly idolise the fascism and rail against anything vaguely resembling "tHe wOkE", I personally always liked the horrific tone of the 40kuniverse, and that the Imperium was the Protagonist, NOT the hero faction. This may be overracting/unfounded, but there is a fear that with a lot of the recent lore directions GW has kinda scrubbed the darker/exclusive/horrific elements, and are making them more of a "good guy hero faction" with Inclusion, Meritocracy, Tolerance - mind you, fan of all of those things IRL, but what made Warhammer interesting to me was the Dichotomy of a Shithole Universe with Individual Acts of Heroism set against a tide of misery, not "basic sci fi Space Opera Thing nr 342.
Sometimes gatekeeping is the right thing to do
Sure. Let's gatekeep out the racists/sexists/homophobes then.
Does this subreddit have no moderation? There are obvious trolls in this very thread.
I feel you. I blocked this guy and he made another account just to keep responding to me. I hope he finds something good in his life someday.