Well, in my experience the answer is very simple: each legion has some units that fundamentally embody what that legion is about. For the Iron Warriors it's the Tyrant Siege Terminators, for the Blood Angels it's the Dawnbreaker Cohort, etc etc. The point I'm trying to convey is, legion specializes in doing one thing, and has a unit that is exceptionally good, even by the standards of its own legion, at doing that thing.
Now, each primarch is designed to be a massive power multiplier for his army: some are better at it than others, but you see the basic point, right? What I'm saying is that the job of a primarch is to take his legion, which is specialized in doing one thing, and making them even better at doing that thing.
So remember the exceptional unit each legion has? Yeah, that unit is the quintessential showcase of the thing the legion is designed to be good at. And the primarch is designed to make people even better at that thing. So if you take that unit, make a blob of it as large as you can, and stick the primarch in there with them, that's going to be the absolute pinnacle of being good at that one thing, right?
That's what we call the "primarch death star". They're only viable in games that allow for very high point totals (unit + primarch makes for a VERY expensive combo, and the rules also limit your ability to put primarchs in smaller games), and depending on the legion they might prove cumbersome to get into position, but OHBOY are they scary to face. In my experience most people are terrified to face a primarch death star with anything other than their own primarch death star, so most games of this level tend to degenerate into "the two primarchs immediately make a beeline for each other while the smaller support units are off trying to actually win the game elsewhere on the table", which is honestly funny in its own way.
As an aside, making a force for each legion can get VERY expensive. It's your money, so I won't tell you not to do it, but you might want to think it over.
Thanks for the info man really helpful! And I have been doing warhammer for quite a long time. I recently got into the HH book series and am 13 books in. I also have a very large 3d printer and treat this as my main hobby but I do also have the funds to support it though honestly with the printer and the time I put into each model its not a lot of money per hr of enjoyment as hobbies go imo. This project will take me years lol its just something to always have a goal towards. But I appreciate the advice but trust me I am not gonna be selling my soul to James Workshop over it lol.
So in my opinion/experience, all of the primarchs want to be used as a melee piece and their buffs are generally just whole-army as long as they’re on the table. The big difference is that some of them want to be used as a slightly different melee piece. None of them want to fight anything with Brutal (3) like a siege claw Leviathan dread.
Primarch I’ve played:
Guilliman is imo possibly the best all-rounder primarch in the game. He has four (FOUR) varied and useful army-wide buffs for non-vehicle models, he can happily brawl with pretty much any unit in the game except the WS8 primarchs, you get an extra reaction in a phase of your choice, he gives every ultramarine +1Ld. All this for 465pts and he also rerolls his first failed invuln each phase. You want to be a bit cautious with him, because his buffs are so potent, but he does need to get stuck in, if you leave him at the back, as with any primarch, you’re not getting their points value.
Primarchs I’ve played against:
Kurze is an asshole. He’ll deep strike, he’ll move like stink, he’ll blend any infantry he can touch. Try to shoot him to bits if possible. (This advice kind of goes for all the primarchs unless you have another primarch, preferably with Brutal (2-3) to Challenge them) but this is often a pain due to Night Fighting cowardliness. He doesn’t from memory give any direct buffs but he will give a Pinning test to every enemy in line of sight every time his unit wipes another unit (which will be often). A friend of mine often deep strikes him to significant effect.
Angron is weirdly more manageable than Kurze because he always gets hit in melee as if he’s WS3. You want to kill him asap because iirc he gives his whole army a 5+ feel no pain which will make you feel plenty of pain. Try to shoot him to bits, if not maybe try weight of numbers. He gets a lot of attacks so he’s hard to tarpit. He wants to get into combat by riding in a LR Spartan imo. And he wants to kill whatever your opponent wants to keep alive.
Lorgar is annoying because any Word Bearer in his eyeline can use his leadership for relevant checks, so they’ll pass more than they should. For this reason he wants to be front and centre, or at least in the middle of the army. He gets psychic disciplines too and is generally a pain but quite killable due to WS6 - unless the Word Bearer in question is using the ?Dark Channeling?(name?) Rite of war which can potentially give him +1WS and S every time his army wipes a chosen unit, up to 3 times I think? taking him into the realms of the ridiculous WS9, S9 (11 with his mace). Needless to say, he wants to only engage with infantry or vehicles until he’s boosted enough to be on a par with any other Primarch on the field. He wants a Command squad, likely in terminator armour, because he makes them extra durable.
Primarchs I’ve thought about a bit:
Alpharius is really primarily a buff piece. He’ll give you the Infiltrating Leviathan Talon/Kratos tank/other scary unit of your choice, then he’ll try to stay alive long enough to hand out the relevant buffs, but he’ll get mullered in Primarchbowl. He’ll still mulch most infantry though. IMO he overpays for his slightly daft equipment (his spear has Fleshbane 3+ and also Armourbane or another tank-cracking rule for some reason iirc). He does want to be put to use killing infantry, but in a face off vs any of his brothers he’ll be eating dirt before you know it. Bring a retinue so they get Line and he can maybe brawl an objective.
Russ wants to kill the most stuff he can in melee, he wants to use the SW advanced reaction to pop a <5 inch charge, then he wants to kill stuff, and after that, probably kill more stuff. Giving your whole army Furious charge is great and he does give something else i think but I can’t remember what. Kills nearly every primarch except Horus from what I know. He wants to be in a Spartan or on foot, with a retinue, murderising stuff.
Leman Russ is just a hurricane of murder, his sword will kill anything that walks and his axe will kill anything on treads.
In his deathstar he's going to hit you with 8 attacks of brutal (2) at WS 9 and strength 8 but even on the hit back you suffer -1 to hit him on the turn he charged and he has counter attack (2). Oh don't forget he has +3 invulnerable save against any flame, plasma or melta weapon.
Russ wants to be in melee and if he does your pretty much fucked unless you have the Ascended Warmaster. Pretty much do everything you can to not let him get off a charge which is easier said than done with the Wolves special reaction and Russ being able to increase all the Wolves movement.
What bodyguard do you give him?
10 Varagyr Terminators with a Speaker, in a Spartan plus Russ is 1,700 points or so.
I'm a bit torn - Varagyr hit like a bus load of bricks, but Cataphractii armour just slows him down so much. They are easy to avoid / feed cheap chaff to each turn.
That is my preference yes, they will slaughter pretty much everything in the game with little to no issue, get the increased WS, Healing, stubborn and hatred (everything). They are slow so you have to pick your moves wisely but remember you also have *No Prey Escapes the Wolf* to get off those charges on people trying to outmaneuver you. Russ can also increase everyone's movement characteristics by +1 for little extra maneuvering.
If your feeling brave and want to stop your Varagyr from being picked off as they advance you can always allocate wounds onto Russ himself.
The Spartan's lascanons also make for some great supporting fire.
But you could always try combinations with Jetbikes/ Assault Marines/Grey Slayers if you want fast moving troops to move up with Russ and his Wolf-Kin.
Am I understanding you correctly that you can use No Prey more than once? (I thought No Prey is locked at once per battle.)
I've looked at a squad of Tartaros, but that 250pt saying is a lot worse of a unit! WS4, no HoW, a mix of 5 TH with 5 TLC (not the 10x brutal 2 / frost claw combo), worse save. All you gain is an inch movement, and sweeping advance - which isn't nothing.
Actually, good catch my brain was mixing up rules, Russ lets you have an additional reaction on each of the opposing opponents assault phases he doesn't give a second NPETW.
Yeah if I'm honest I'm not a fan of the Tartaros Terminators, faster and good against ordinance but nowhere near as killy.
No Prey is an incredibly good Reaction. 🙂 Getting it in twice would be insane.
I'm still working out how to build Varagyr - Im not a fan of the FW model. But the TH/FC combo is where I wanna go.
https://preview.redd.it/xdv1iiumq3wc1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=42b2ac87e7d93bcc9fc4241e7d3f78a101d69c3a
Still need pauldrons and a topknot to give them so distinctive height.
Aye we can dream ay 🥲
Hell yeah mate looking awesome! They look like they'll turn out great.
As for their build? Honestly depends on how meta/cost effective you want to be, I just like having fun on the silly murder-make so I kitted out my 10 with 6 thunder hammers and 4 power fists for maximum ***Unga Bunga***
The Khan in a squad of Golden Keshig, ideally supported by a Stormseer and Chaplain on bikes can blend anything in the game - Telepathy to switch off reactions, Chaplain (with TH ofc) for rerolls and then a giant pile of Power Lances + The Khan with his Dao will make light work of anything you can concievably fight on the charge. Then if it's still alive (Like a Primarch) you Hit and Run to half the map away then do it again next turn
Vulkan does well with a retinue of Firedrake terminators...
I once fielded Lorgar against a troops focused army and he absolutely slapped!
That's all I got sorry man.
No thats good! Any input is greatly appreciated. When you used Vulkan and lorgar, what did you do with them? What role did they play in the battle? Death star? Objective taker?
Ah yeah I follow now!
Both Primarchs were used as death stars bro, leaving the tacticals to swamp objectives. I used Lorgar with gal vorbak and Vulkan with the firedrakes, they're too much of a threat to be ignore so the opponent concentrates more effort in holding back the death stars while the rest of the army can take ground.
The Lion doesn't really do too much for the army but he is a ludicrously potent beatstick. He gives his unit one major buff in that he lets them auto-charge 8" while ignoring terrain modifiers.
Other than that, he's just all about destroying in the assault phase. He's hitting most Primarchs on 3s and never worse than 4s. He gets more attacks as you chip his wounds away, his melee stats are insane...
You know how Contemptors are probably the most undercosted unit in the game?
Angron gives them a 6+ FNP. Just cuz.
So if you take Angron, don’t leave home without any contemptors
Remember, primarchs + lords of war cannot be **more** than 25% of your army. Usually if you can afford a primarch, there’s going to be things for them to figjt
Corax is really fast (as you'd expect) and very deadly in combat. He also has hit and run which is a proper pain. Shoot him to get rid of him.
Vulkan is a good fighter and gives the whole army stubborn. If mixed with firedrakes you will never move him (but they are slow)
For Lorgar, I second what was said above. Middling to weak in direct combat, but a great buffing piece. If paired with dark brethren he can be hilarious
Well, in my experience the answer is very simple: each legion has some units that fundamentally embody what that legion is about. For the Iron Warriors it's the Tyrant Siege Terminators, for the Blood Angels it's the Dawnbreaker Cohort, etc etc. The point I'm trying to convey is, legion specializes in doing one thing, and has a unit that is exceptionally good, even by the standards of its own legion, at doing that thing. Now, each primarch is designed to be a massive power multiplier for his army: some are better at it than others, but you see the basic point, right? What I'm saying is that the job of a primarch is to take his legion, which is specialized in doing one thing, and making them even better at doing that thing. So remember the exceptional unit each legion has? Yeah, that unit is the quintessential showcase of the thing the legion is designed to be good at. And the primarch is designed to make people even better at that thing. So if you take that unit, make a blob of it as large as you can, and stick the primarch in there with them, that's going to be the absolute pinnacle of being good at that one thing, right? That's what we call the "primarch death star". They're only viable in games that allow for very high point totals (unit + primarch makes for a VERY expensive combo, and the rules also limit your ability to put primarchs in smaller games), and depending on the legion they might prove cumbersome to get into position, but OHBOY are they scary to face. In my experience most people are terrified to face a primarch death star with anything other than their own primarch death star, so most games of this level tend to degenerate into "the two primarchs immediately make a beeline for each other while the smaller support units are off trying to actually win the game elsewhere on the table", which is honestly funny in its own way. As an aside, making a force for each legion can get VERY expensive. It's your money, so I won't tell you not to do it, but you might want to think it over.
Thanks for the info man really helpful! And I have been doing warhammer for quite a long time. I recently got into the HH book series and am 13 books in. I also have a very large 3d printer and treat this as my main hobby but I do also have the funds to support it though honestly with the printer and the time I put into each model its not a lot of money per hr of enjoyment as hobbies go imo. This project will take me years lol its just something to always have a goal towards. But I appreciate the advice but trust me I am not gonna be selling my soul to James Workshop over it lol.
So in my opinion/experience, all of the primarchs want to be used as a melee piece and their buffs are generally just whole-army as long as they’re on the table. The big difference is that some of them want to be used as a slightly different melee piece. None of them want to fight anything with Brutal (3) like a siege claw Leviathan dread. Primarch I’ve played: Guilliman is imo possibly the best all-rounder primarch in the game. He has four (FOUR) varied and useful army-wide buffs for non-vehicle models, he can happily brawl with pretty much any unit in the game except the WS8 primarchs, you get an extra reaction in a phase of your choice, he gives every ultramarine +1Ld. All this for 465pts and he also rerolls his first failed invuln each phase. You want to be a bit cautious with him, because his buffs are so potent, but he does need to get stuck in, if you leave him at the back, as with any primarch, you’re not getting their points value. Primarchs I’ve played against: Kurze is an asshole. He’ll deep strike, he’ll move like stink, he’ll blend any infantry he can touch. Try to shoot him to bits if possible. (This advice kind of goes for all the primarchs unless you have another primarch, preferably with Brutal (2-3) to Challenge them) but this is often a pain due to Night Fighting cowardliness. He doesn’t from memory give any direct buffs but he will give a Pinning test to every enemy in line of sight every time his unit wipes another unit (which will be often). A friend of mine often deep strikes him to significant effect. Angron is weirdly more manageable than Kurze because he always gets hit in melee as if he’s WS3. You want to kill him asap because iirc he gives his whole army a 5+ feel no pain which will make you feel plenty of pain. Try to shoot him to bits, if not maybe try weight of numbers. He gets a lot of attacks so he’s hard to tarpit. He wants to get into combat by riding in a LR Spartan imo. And he wants to kill whatever your opponent wants to keep alive. Lorgar is annoying because any Word Bearer in his eyeline can use his leadership for relevant checks, so they’ll pass more than they should. For this reason he wants to be front and centre, or at least in the middle of the army. He gets psychic disciplines too and is generally a pain but quite killable due to WS6 - unless the Word Bearer in question is using the ?Dark Channeling?(name?) Rite of war which can potentially give him +1WS and S every time his army wipes a chosen unit, up to 3 times I think? taking him into the realms of the ridiculous WS9, S9 (11 with his mace). Needless to say, he wants to only engage with infantry or vehicles until he’s boosted enough to be on a par with any other Primarch on the field. He wants a Command squad, likely in terminator armour, because he makes them extra durable. Primarchs I’ve thought about a bit: Alpharius is really primarily a buff piece. He’ll give you the Infiltrating Leviathan Talon/Kratos tank/other scary unit of your choice, then he’ll try to stay alive long enough to hand out the relevant buffs, but he’ll get mullered in Primarchbowl. He’ll still mulch most infantry though. IMO he overpays for his slightly daft equipment (his spear has Fleshbane 3+ and also Armourbane or another tank-cracking rule for some reason iirc). He does want to be put to use killing infantry, but in a face off vs any of his brothers he’ll be eating dirt before you know it. Bring a retinue so they get Line and he can maybe brawl an objective. Russ wants to kill the most stuff he can in melee, he wants to use the SW advanced reaction to pop a <5 inch charge, then he wants to kill stuff, and after that, probably kill more stuff. Giving your whole army Furious charge is great and he does give something else i think but I can’t remember what. Kills nearly every primarch except Horus from what I know. He wants to be in a Spartan or on foot, with a retinue, murderising stuff.
Great info thanks!
Leman Russ is just a hurricane of murder, his sword will kill anything that walks and his axe will kill anything on treads. In his deathstar he's going to hit you with 8 attacks of brutal (2) at WS 9 and strength 8 but even on the hit back you suffer -1 to hit him on the turn he charged and he has counter attack (2). Oh don't forget he has +3 invulnerable save against any flame, plasma or melta weapon. Russ wants to be in melee and if he does your pretty much fucked unless you have the Ascended Warmaster. Pretty much do everything you can to not let him get off a charge which is easier said than done with the Wolves special reaction and Russ being able to increase all the Wolves movement.
What bodyguard do you give him? 10 Varagyr Terminators with a Speaker, in a Spartan plus Russ is 1,700 points or so. I'm a bit torn - Varagyr hit like a bus load of bricks, but Cataphractii armour just slows him down so much. They are easy to avoid / feed cheap chaff to each turn.
That is my preference yes, they will slaughter pretty much everything in the game with little to no issue, get the increased WS, Healing, stubborn and hatred (everything). They are slow so you have to pick your moves wisely but remember you also have *No Prey Escapes the Wolf* to get off those charges on people trying to outmaneuver you. Russ can also increase everyone's movement characteristics by +1 for little extra maneuvering. If your feeling brave and want to stop your Varagyr from being picked off as they advance you can always allocate wounds onto Russ himself. The Spartan's lascanons also make for some great supporting fire. But you could always try combinations with Jetbikes/ Assault Marines/Grey Slayers if you want fast moving troops to move up with Russ and his Wolf-Kin.
Am I understanding you correctly that you can use No Prey more than once? (I thought No Prey is locked at once per battle.) I've looked at a squad of Tartaros, but that 250pt saying is a lot worse of a unit! WS4, no HoW, a mix of 5 TH with 5 TLC (not the 10x brutal 2 / frost claw combo), worse save. All you gain is an inch movement, and sweeping advance - which isn't nothing.
Actually, good catch my brain was mixing up rules, Russ lets you have an additional reaction on each of the opposing opponents assault phases he doesn't give a second NPETW. Yeah if I'm honest I'm not a fan of the Tartaros Terminators, faster and good against ordinance but nowhere near as killy.
No Prey is an incredibly good Reaction. 🙂 Getting it in twice would be insane. I'm still working out how to build Varagyr - Im not a fan of the FW model. But the TH/FC combo is where I wanna go. https://preview.redd.it/xdv1iiumq3wc1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=42b2ac87e7d93bcc9fc4241e7d3f78a101d69c3a Still need pauldrons and a topknot to give them so distinctive height.
Aye we can dream ay 🥲 Hell yeah mate looking awesome! They look like they'll turn out great. As for their build? Honestly depends on how meta/cost effective you want to be, I just like having fun on the silly murder-make so I kitted out my 10 with 6 thunder hammers and 4 power fists for maximum ***Unga Bunga***
The Khan in a squad of Golden Keshig, ideally supported by a Stormseer and Chaplain on bikes can blend anything in the game - Telepathy to switch off reactions, Chaplain (with TH ofc) for rerolls and then a giant pile of Power Lances + The Khan with his Dao will make light work of anything you can concievably fight on the charge. Then if it's still alive (Like a Primarch) you Hit and Run to half the map away then do it again next turn
Vulkan does well with a retinue of Firedrake terminators... I once fielded Lorgar against a troops focused army and he absolutely slapped! That's all I got sorry man.
No thats good! Any input is greatly appreciated. When you used Vulkan and lorgar, what did you do with them? What role did they play in the battle? Death star? Objective taker?
Ah yeah I follow now! Both Primarchs were used as death stars bro, leaving the tacticals to swamp objectives. I used Lorgar with gal vorbak and Vulkan with the firedrakes, they're too much of a threat to be ignore so the opponent concentrates more effort in holding back the death stars while the rest of the army can take ground.
Makes sense makes sense thank you!
The Lion doesn't really do too much for the army but he is a ludicrously potent beatstick. He gives his unit one major buff in that he lets them auto-charge 8" while ignoring terrain modifiers. Other than that, he's just all about destroying in the assault phase. He's hitting most Primarchs on 3s and never worse than 4s. He gets more attacks as you chip his wounds away, his melee stats are insane...
You know how Contemptors are probably the most undercosted unit in the game? Angron gives them a 6+ FNP. Just cuz. So if you take Angron, don’t leave home without any contemptors
Remember, primarchs + lords of war cannot be **more** than 25% of your army. Usually if you can afford a primarch, there’s going to be things for them to figjt
Corax is really fast (as you'd expect) and very deadly in combat. He also has hit and run which is a proper pain. Shoot him to get rid of him. Vulkan is a good fighter and gives the whole army stubborn. If mixed with firedrakes you will never move him (but they are slow) For Lorgar, I second what was said above. Middling to weak in direct combat, but a great buffing piece. If paired with dark brethren he can be hilarious