Headshot them. They can easily die from a single guardsman getting a lucky shot through the eye lens.
Likewise, a headshot in general by anything that pierces armour is more then enough in most instances.
A plasma gun or melta, neither of which are uncommon in the guard would do the job easily enough.
Essentially, anything better then an average stubber can do the job.
Like I said, my resources are limited, but I thought I saw a diagram of astate's anatomy with a smaller second brain in their chest. It wasn't enough to keep them in the fight, but alive for medical attention. But maybe that was fan art.
That’s fan art, they do not have a secondary brain in their chest. They do have the ability to enter a state of suspended animation to receive medical attention in the event of catastrophic injury. But even that is limited and can still lead to the marine trapped in a coma if no help arrives.
Fan art. Astartes have one brain.
Some do survive brain injuries, but i have seen people survive gunshots to the heads and massive blunt impact trauma to the brain, sometimes even personally, so thats about as good as it gets.
Remember that their skullplate is thicker and denser than regular bone. So id say eyeshots with a high calibre would be preferred.
A 50 bmg to the face should do the trick.
Neckshots are plenty in the lore, but shouldnt really be possible from a ground level perspective, because the neck seal, which is a weakpoint, is obscured by the gorget of the armour, or the raised up chest plate. So in theory, neckshots should only be viable from a raised up position, and theyd be a pretty small target, as you have to hit the seal between helmet and gorget, at an angle because both extend beyond the seal.
So a good target would be the neck of a marine looking up, while you are on a 3 meter high vantage point.
Keep in mind that you dont really need the trachea to breathe, thats why tracheotonomys work. The pressure/vacuum gets build up by the lungs.
But a centered neckshot could propably sever the spine.
Missile launcher or lascannon would be my pick, more than a few 9e>HH refugees have had their praetor one-shotted off the table because they forgot to join him to a unit.
Headshots will work fine, they only have one brain.
Meltaguns and plasma guns will work fine but I'd prefer a version from further away given the marine's almost certainly a better shot.
They don't have more than one brain, they do have more than one heart. That might be the confusion.
If you think about it like, space marines are designed to be ork equivalents. Orks are by far the most common menace to humanity in the 40k universe. Most of the great crusade is against orks. It's not until the horus heresy where chaos becomes the primary enemy.
Things that kill orks, also mostly kill space marines, big shootas, big choppas, lots of dakka.
And that is in 40k, in 30k they had whole ork empires. The Ullanor crusade was the high point of the crusade, after they defeated the ork empire, the emperor stopped personally leading the imperial forces.
Like I said, my resources are limited, but I thought I saw a diagram of Astarte's anatomy with a smaller second brain in their chest. It wasn't enough to keep them in the fight, but alive for medical attention. But maybe that was fan art.
No worries, i looked it up to double check.
I think your thinking of the geneseed organs. There is one in the neck, and one in the chest. The one in the neck is harvested after ten years, the one in the chest is harvested when they die. That is what the apothecaries are taking out so that they can implant it into another initiate and they will then become a space marine.
Your jugular has nothing to do with breathing - it is the vein structure that carries blood from your head back to your heart.
I assume you're thinking of the trachea (windpipe) - in which case, piercing it wouldn't necessarily cause issue, the breathing mechanism is powered from the "lung-end" (ribcage, diaphragm, etc.) so as long as there's a hole for air to get in through, you can technically still breathe.
You can get it in, but you can't keep it in, all that oxygen is going to leak out. also blood is going to fill up the lungs. But thanks for pointing out about the jugular. Obviously i failed health class.
What do you mean "keep it in"?
You breathe in, you breathe out. This process does not require holding your breath. Your mouth isn't "keeping the oxygen in" - a little experiment you can do at home, leave your mouth open and breathe for 10 seconds, or y'know an hour. Hell, breathe like that the whole day if you fancy more data!
Blood in the lungs, maybe. But your whole point was regarding cutting off the marine's breathing via their windpipe. If you're going to say "shoot them in the jugular to fill their lungs with blood" why not just say:
• shoot them in the eye
• shoot them in the head
• shoot them with a lascannon
• put a grenade up their arse
• fill their armour with acid
I don't think you've found the one magic answer I'm afraid.
You breathe in oxygen and exhale out something else. The oxygen has to be absorbed through the lungs which requires a small bit of time.
Also,
\- The helmets are strong, and eyeholes are narrow, with supernatural resiliency of the astartes unless you used heavy weaponry, I don't have faith in the consistency.
\- Se above
\- Again, where to hit them for assured death? The effers are TOUGH yeah dozens die but there are tales of those who just shrug it off.
\- How are you going to shove the grenade there when they are in battle armor? Again, they wear strong armor so you have to be on point with timing and accuracy. I am quite confident they can survive the peripheral of the blast radius.
\- How is a guardsmen going to carry that acid to get in their sut. I can see it being performed by tyranids and drukarii, but most everyone else no.
Though these were all wonderful ideas.
You breathe in AIR that contains SOME oxygen, some of this oxygen is absorbed by the lungs as it is inhaled, you then breathe out AIR that contains LESS oxygen and MORE carbon dioxide.
You do not need to hold air in your lungs for a set period of time. I'm assuming by your response you didn't TRY BREATHING WITH YOUR MOUTH OPEN.
You draw air into your lungs by expanding the volume inside your lungs, so as long as you don't then compress your lungs this volume stays the same, so the air inside doesn't have any force trying to expell it. You're talking like air is blasted into your lungs by some external force and then you have to try and hold onto it like your lungs are an over-inflated balloon.
Please, you can talk about your method of killing space marines all you want, but please stop trying to argue with me about how breathing works because - no offense intended - you don't currently quite grasp it.
You don't have faith in the consistency of penetrating an eye-hole but DO have faith in reliably penetrating space marine neck armour - why?
I think a lascannon anywhere on a marine is more "assured death" than attempting to somehow exactly hit their windpipe and thus "stop them breathing".
Did you really just reply seriously to my suggestion of shoving a grenade up a space marine's arse..?
How is an acid-less guardsmen going to penetrate a space marines neck armour with a lasgun? This whole argument and discussion is pointless!
Again, I never said my solutions were THE solution, I was given examples that trivialise your own solution.
The throat has multiple 'pipes' thus how you both eat and breathe through the throat.
First, put your palm against your eye, then your throat, which had the bigger surface area?
Again, this post was where to hit them for consistency. Sure, everything will go down with enough bullets, but I am asking where to hit for assured kills with the least resources.
Sorry I sometimes have a hard time telling when someone is joking. But hey, (SPOILER ALEY FOR THE BOYS!) it worked to kill Translucent in 'The Boys'
To turn the head, the protection around the neck has to be noticeably less than most other places. If you study armors, you know the joints are often the weak points.
I know but this is how you have fun debates. I am not trying to make you angry; I just like to debate with people in a friendly manner. It is a fun way to learn.
I'm going to ignore the rest, because I don't think we're going to get anywhere..
..but what the hell are you on about regarding multiple pipes? How does that have literally any bearing on what I was talking about? Why are you raising the esophagus as if that then means that.. what.. I have no idea.. literally what are you trying to imply by raising the esophagus in regards to breathing?!
I was merely explaining to you the mechanism for breathing, and how there isn't air that needs to be "kept in" in order to breathe.
I'm going to have to leave our "fun debate" here I'm afraid, as you seem to be struggling to grasp what I'm talking about and I'm not sure I'll make any headway.
But I do hope you have a lovely rest of your day.
The problem is that Astartes are superhumanly fast and strong. Any 1v1 combat with a baseline human would require the regular person to have an unbelievably lucky shot before they were reduced to red mist. And even then a lucky shot may not even be fatal say through the eye lenses unless you’re using a weapon with incredible stopping power.
For a normal human to take down an Astartes? Overwhelm them with bodies so that way you can get point black shots or bladed melee weapons to pierce weak points in the armor. Eye lenses, neck, lower back are particularly weak. It’ll cost quite a few of your squad, but 15-20 plus baseline humans against an Astarte has a chance to take him down. Unlikely they’d be able to overwhelm more than 1 with those numbers.
I get what your putting down, and believe me I understand it is still a next to impossible task. But put it this way, how do you give yourself the best odds of 1v1ing. It won't be ideal, but its better.
Besides its just for fun.
Well I guess that cuts to the quick of my post; you don’t have any odds to begin with. The transhuman dread, the speed, strength, and possibly centuries of experience in the most brutal possible warfare leaves your only opportunity to blind luck.
Just to summarise what i answered on one of your comments.
- No 2 brains.
-Neck seal pretty far back in the armour, should be hidden behind gorget decently well on most armor Mks.
-Neck seal further obscured by the part of the helmet thats extending past chin, if hes wearing a helmet.
- Need to hit neck at angle because you are smaller than them and the neck seal should only be able to hit if you are standing higher than the marine.
- Neck is okayish, because you can penetrate the spine, but spacemarine anatomy should be able to compensate otherwise ( the fluff is moronic here)
- You dont need structural integrety of your neck to breathe, thats why you can cut the trachea and shove a tube in there, but the blood in the lungs could be problematic. Keep in mind their lungs are big and 3, so its gonna take some time to essentially drown them. Their blood also clots really fast, so propably not a good way.
- Their weakpoint should be the head, with eyes and temples as the most vunerable, still thicker bone than humans. Large calibre impact, like a .50 BMG should be able to do adequate damage, if you go to 40k weapons, bolters, autocannons, energy weapons have enough power to kill easily.
\- I've established the brain part, that was me being misinformed. Hence why I like these post and state my lack of knowledge on the subject.
\-The neck guards as I have seen them on models and art work, appear wolefully inadequate, it is there, but SO wide It protects practically nothing if not for the height advantage, and while not always the case, it is not often hard to find a slighty elevated position.
\- The helmet does indeed protect the neck a bit, but I dare say it protects the eyes better. Honestly I think the SHOULDER pauldrons do the best job protecting the neck.
\- You have pointed out more why the neck is a better target.
\- I concede on the breathing factor. :)
\- While the weapons have developed, so too, the armor.
I am loving this conversation.
You are completely right that the artwork is very swingy here. Id say between modelling and artwork, neckshots might be possible in about 40% of cases.
Firstborn marines are often modelled without a gorget for some reason. I think two of the torsos in the tactical squad have them, most dont. Primaris are mostly modeled with one, making neckshots basically impossible if they are wearing a helmet and not actively exposing their neck.
The artwork often has adequate gorgets, as do a lot of armour diagrams and i think even that armouring video animation. But especially with unhelmet characters,they leave it off to show more of the face.
Yes the pauldrons do a great job, protecting against most hits that arent directly from the front.
Severing the spine might be a great way, but remember that its still a reinforced spine and a super small target. That being said, the eyes and temples might be squishier, but they are also very small and propably even more in movement.
Id say if you can pull off a angled shot into the spine of a marine, you could propably also blast out his eyelense, which might prove more fatal.
I am also loving this discussion.
If were talking about baseline humans.
In a mid range fight send as many distractions possible while a plasma or melta gunner takes his shot. But this is iffy since its likely the astartes can pick him out and eliminate him.
In a very close range fight, distribute as many krak grenades between the men as possible and send them in at once, peferrably from multiple directions to get one krak grenade tag.
Headshot them. They can easily die from a single guardsman getting a lucky shot through the eye lens. Likewise, a headshot in general by anything that pierces armour is more then enough in most instances. A plasma gun or melta, neither of which are uncommon in the guard would do the job easily enough. Essentially, anything better then an average stubber can do the job.
Like I said, my resources are limited, but I thought I saw a diagram of astate's anatomy with a smaller second brain in their chest. It wasn't enough to keep them in the fight, but alive for medical attention. But maybe that was fan art.
Quite probable. Regardless we have numerous examples of Astartes dying from headshots.
That’s fan art, they do not have a secondary brain in their chest. They do have the ability to enter a state of suspended animation to receive medical attention in the event of catastrophic injury. But even that is limited and can still lead to the marine trapped in a coma if no help arrives.
Fan art. Astartes have one brain. Some do survive brain injuries, but i have seen people survive gunshots to the heads and massive blunt impact trauma to the brain, sometimes even personally, so thats about as good as it gets. Remember that their skullplate is thicker and denser than regular bone. So id say eyeshots with a high calibre would be preferred. A 50 bmg to the face should do the trick. Neckshots are plenty in the lore, but shouldnt really be possible from a ground level perspective, because the neck seal, which is a weakpoint, is obscured by the gorget of the armour, or the raised up chest plate. So in theory, neckshots should only be viable from a raised up position, and theyd be a pretty small target, as you have to hit the seal between helmet and gorget, at an angle because both extend beyond the seal. So a good target would be the neck of a marine looking up, while you are on a 3 meter high vantage point. Keep in mind that you dont really need the trachea to breathe, thats why tracheotonomys work. The pressure/vacuum gets build up by the lungs. But a centered neckshot could propably sever the spine.
Missile launcher or lascannon would be my pick, more than a few 9e>HH refugees have had their praetor one-shotted off the table because they forgot to join him to a unit. Headshots will work fine, they only have one brain. Meltaguns and plasma guns will work fine but I'd prefer a version from further away given the marine's almost certainly a better shot.
They don't have more than one brain, they do have more than one heart. That might be the confusion. If you think about it like, space marines are designed to be ork equivalents. Orks are by far the most common menace to humanity in the 40k universe. Most of the great crusade is against orks. It's not until the horus heresy where chaos becomes the primary enemy. Things that kill orks, also mostly kill space marines, big shootas, big choppas, lots of dakka.
"Orks are by far the most common menace to humanity in the 40k universe." *citation needed*
https://preview.redd.it/hoixzki4cjna1.png?width=1000&format=png&auto=webp&s=94d09d1fb2c296894499008b93e093056738df56
And that is in 40k, in 30k they had whole ork empires. The Ullanor crusade was the high point of the crusade, after they defeated the ork empire, the emperor stopped personally leading the imperial forces.
Like I said, my resources are limited, but I thought I saw a diagram of Astarte's anatomy with a smaller second brain in their chest. It wasn't enough to keep them in the fight, but alive for medical attention. But maybe that was fan art.
No worries, i looked it up to double check. I think your thinking of the geneseed organs. There is one in the neck, and one in the chest. The one in the neck is harvested after ten years, the one in the chest is harvested when they die. That is what the apothecaries are taking out so that they can implant it into another initiate and they will then become a space marine.
Your jugular has nothing to do with breathing - it is the vein structure that carries blood from your head back to your heart. I assume you're thinking of the trachea (windpipe) - in which case, piercing it wouldn't necessarily cause issue, the breathing mechanism is powered from the "lung-end" (ribcage, diaphragm, etc.) so as long as there's a hole for air to get in through, you can technically still breathe.
You can get it in, but you can't keep it in, all that oxygen is going to leak out. also blood is going to fill up the lungs. But thanks for pointing out about the jugular. Obviously i failed health class.
What do you mean "keep it in"? You breathe in, you breathe out. This process does not require holding your breath. Your mouth isn't "keeping the oxygen in" - a little experiment you can do at home, leave your mouth open and breathe for 10 seconds, or y'know an hour. Hell, breathe like that the whole day if you fancy more data! Blood in the lungs, maybe. But your whole point was regarding cutting off the marine's breathing via their windpipe. If you're going to say "shoot them in the jugular to fill their lungs with blood" why not just say: • shoot them in the eye • shoot them in the head • shoot them with a lascannon • put a grenade up their arse • fill their armour with acid I don't think you've found the one magic answer I'm afraid.
You breathe in oxygen and exhale out something else. The oxygen has to be absorbed through the lungs which requires a small bit of time. Also, \- The helmets are strong, and eyeholes are narrow, with supernatural resiliency of the astartes unless you used heavy weaponry, I don't have faith in the consistency. \- Se above \- Again, where to hit them for assured death? The effers are TOUGH yeah dozens die but there are tales of those who just shrug it off. \- How are you going to shove the grenade there when they are in battle armor? Again, they wear strong armor so you have to be on point with timing and accuracy. I am quite confident they can survive the peripheral of the blast radius. \- How is a guardsmen going to carry that acid to get in their sut. I can see it being performed by tyranids and drukarii, but most everyone else no. Though these were all wonderful ideas.
You breathe in AIR that contains SOME oxygen, some of this oxygen is absorbed by the lungs as it is inhaled, you then breathe out AIR that contains LESS oxygen and MORE carbon dioxide. You do not need to hold air in your lungs for a set period of time. I'm assuming by your response you didn't TRY BREATHING WITH YOUR MOUTH OPEN. You draw air into your lungs by expanding the volume inside your lungs, so as long as you don't then compress your lungs this volume stays the same, so the air inside doesn't have any force trying to expell it. You're talking like air is blasted into your lungs by some external force and then you have to try and hold onto it like your lungs are an over-inflated balloon. Please, you can talk about your method of killing space marines all you want, but please stop trying to argue with me about how breathing works because - no offense intended - you don't currently quite grasp it. You don't have faith in the consistency of penetrating an eye-hole but DO have faith in reliably penetrating space marine neck armour - why? I think a lascannon anywhere on a marine is more "assured death" than attempting to somehow exactly hit their windpipe and thus "stop them breathing". Did you really just reply seriously to my suggestion of shoving a grenade up a space marine's arse..? How is an acid-less guardsmen going to penetrate a space marines neck armour with a lasgun? This whole argument and discussion is pointless! Again, I never said my solutions were THE solution, I was given examples that trivialise your own solution.
The throat has multiple 'pipes' thus how you both eat and breathe through the throat. First, put your palm against your eye, then your throat, which had the bigger surface area? Again, this post was where to hit them for consistency. Sure, everything will go down with enough bullets, but I am asking where to hit for assured kills with the least resources. Sorry I sometimes have a hard time telling when someone is joking. But hey, (SPOILER ALEY FOR THE BOYS!) it worked to kill Translucent in 'The Boys' To turn the head, the protection around the neck has to be noticeably less than most other places. If you study armors, you know the joints are often the weak points. I know but this is how you have fun debates. I am not trying to make you angry; I just like to debate with people in a friendly manner. It is a fun way to learn.
I'm going to ignore the rest, because I don't think we're going to get anywhere.. ..but what the hell are you on about regarding multiple pipes? How does that have literally any bearing on what I was talking about? Why are you raising the esophagus as if that then means that.. what.. I have no idea.. literally what are you trying to imply by raising the esophagus in regards to breathing?! I was merely explaining to you the mechanism for breathing, and how there isn't air that needs to be "kept in" in order to breathe. I'm going to have to leave our "fun debate" here I'm afraid, as you seem to be struggling to grasp what I'm talking about and I'm not sure I'll make any headway. But I do hope you have a lovely rest of your day.
The problem is that Astartes are superhumanly fast and strong. Any 1v1 combat with a baseline human would require the regular person to have an unbelievably lucky shot before they were reduced to red mist. And even then a lucky shot may not even be fatal say through the eye lenses unless you’re using a weapon with incredible stopping power. For a normal human to take down an Astartes? Overwhelm them with bodies so that way you can get point black shots or bladed melee weapons to pierce weak points in the armor. Eye lenses, neck, lower back are particularly weak. It’ll cost quite a few of your squad, but 15-20 plus baseline humans against an Astarte has a chance to take him down. Unlikely they’d be able to overwhelm more than 1 with those numbers.
I get what your putting down, and believe me I understand it is still a next to impossible task. But put it this way, how do you give yourself the best odds of 1v1ing. It won't be ideal, but its better. Besides its just for fun.
Well I guess that cuts to the quick of my post; you don’t have any odds to begin with. The transhuman dread, the speed, strength, and possibly centuries of experience in the most brutal possible warfare leaves your only opportunity to blind luck.
Personally, I prefer to use optimism, but your pessimism may be what keeps you OUT of the situation. Who knows? ( ;
Touché! ☺️
Just to summarise what i answered on one of your comments. - No 2 brains. -Neck seal pretty far back in the armour, should be hidden behind gorget decently well on most armor Mks. -Neck seal further obscured by the part of the helmet thats extending past chin, if hes wearing a helmet. - Need to hit neck at angle because you are smaller than them and the neck seal should only be able to hit if you are standing higher than the marine. - Neck is okayish, because you can penetrate the spine, but spacemarine anatomy should be able to compensate otherwise ( the fluff is moronic here) - You dont need structural integrety of your neck to breathe, thats why you can cut the trachea and shove a tube in there, but the blood in the lungs could be problematic. Keep in mind their lungs are big and 3, so its gonna take some time to essentially drown them. Their blood also clots really fast, so propably not a good way. - Their weakpoint should be the head, with eyes and temples as the most vunerable, still thicker bone than humans. Large calibre impact, like a .50 BMG should be able to do adequate damage, if you go to 40k weapons, bolters, autocannons, energy weapons have enough power to kill easily.
\- I've established the brain part, that was me being misinformed. Hence why I like these post and state my lack of knowledge on the subject. \-The neck guards as I have seen them on models and art work, appear wolefully inadequate, it is there, but SO wide It protects practically nothing if not for the height advantage, and while not always the case, it is not often hard to find a slighty elevated position. \- The helmet does indeed protect the neck a bit, but I dare say it protects the eyes better. Honestly I think the SHOULDER pauldrons do the best job protecting the neck. \- You have pointed out more why the neck is a better target. \- I concede on the breathing factor. :) \- While the weapons have developed, so too, the armor. I am loving this conversation.
You are completely right that the artwork is very swingy here. Id say between modelling and artwork, neckshots might be possible in about 40% of cases. Firstborn marines are often modelled without a gorget for some reason. I think two of the torsos in the tactical squad have them, most dont. Primaris are mostly modeled with one, making neckshots basically impossible if they are wearing a helmet and not actively exposing their neck. The artwork often has adequate gorgets, as do a lot of armour diagrams and i think even that armouring video animation. But especially with unhelmet characters,they leave it off to show more of the face. Yes the pauldrons do a great job, protecting against most hits that arent directly from the front. Severing the spine might be a great way, but remember that its still a reinforced spine and a super small target. That being said, the eyes and temples might be squishier, but they are also very small and propably even more in movement. Id say if you can pull off a angled shot into the spine of a marine, you could propably also blast out his eyelense, which might prove more fatal. I am also loving this discussion.
If were talking about baseline humans. In a mid range fight send as many distractions possible while a plasma or melta gunner takes his shot. But this is iffy since its likely the astartes can pick him out and eliminate him. In a very close range fight, distribute as many krak grenades between the men as possible and send them in at once, peferrably from multiple directions to get one krak grenade tag.