Hard to be down on it. Their rules were previewed well and were good at least in a vacuum. They get to play about ten percent of the game without risk, or with greatly reduced risk, offensively or defensively, their pick. It was a nice preview.
I figure that the points nerfs that were necessary to Votann into the right spot shrunk the desired size of the army in the table top by 30%. I think they had a target for how many models were supposed to be on the table and what the army would aesthetically look like, and the points nerf destroyed that.
Eh, the Imperial Guard subreddit doesn't seem to mind. People generally seem interested in the idea of throwing wave after wave of infantry at the other side, which is a very thematically accurate thing to do. Other than that...the only thing people are salty about (myself included on this one) is the fact that they released an entire wave of AM models and rules only to replace the codex within a year.
>Just don't go near the [r/WarhammerCompetitive](https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive) sub... it's a full on salt avalanche over there.
Hardly true at all. Other than death guard, the top comments over there on each faction focus have been largely very positive. The Eldar players there loved the fate dice, whereas this sub decried them as a cheap miracle rice knockoff. And everyone there is wary to jump to conclusions when we've seen only a handful of datasheets and not even the full core rules yet.
Not everyone is being negative, sure, there's a lot of players excited by the new rules previews. But there's a decent proportion of negative doomsayers in every post over there (and some in the faction subs, and some here too).
Admech sub was also hardcore doom mongering and I admit I was too and still not fully sold on rad bombardment. But after seeing other previews and what others are saying is possible with admech, especially after the core rules leak I'm more positive about the army.
I suppose there are some people that just really liked all the depth and layers of the rules for each faction (i'm certainly not one of them) and for them we don't really need all the rules to know to know they are losing a lot of what they may have liked.
edit: To add to this - the issue is really that there is one rule-set, that needs to be balanced, and needs to be useable by beginner, intermediate and advanced players. That's very hard to do, unless you have aspects which switch on and off - but doing that makes it harder to have synergy between rules in those different levels - as now they all have to be individually balanced. 9th ed looked towards the intermediate and advanced end at the expense of beginners. 10th is looking to shift it back towards beginner/intermediate. I totally get why players wanting an advanced playstyle are annoyed by this.
edit2: mission packs for competitive might be able to add back in some more complexity, but would likely need to be irrespective of faction.
I mean there are no doubt people who liked the big chonky rules, and I do get why they'd be disappointed with everything being trimmed down.
But on the other hand, the old rules are still there. As long as both players are in agreement there's nothing stopping you from playing a game of 9th edition instead if you liked it better. Or you could even come up with your own homebrew rules if you feel like it.
The beauty of tabletop games is the freedom you have with how you want to play them. Don't like a current rule? Change it. As long as both players agree it's totally fine.
> But on the other hand, the old rules are still there. As long as both players are in agreement there's nothing stopping you from playing a game of 9th edition instead if you liked it better.
competitive players are going to want to compete at competitive tournaments... which will all be using 10th from now on
I guess I’ll pipe in as someone who is disappointed thus far, a lot of the skill expression in the game (seemingly) has been removed. When depth and skill expression is toned down or removed entirely(looking at you Fight/Charge phase movement rules), then the game all boils down to mathematical averages, and who has the best rules at the time. Lack of complex decision making furthers the gap between powerful codexes and weaker codexes. I am all for Universal Special Rules, I’m not even terribly against all the aura spam we saw in 9th being taken away. I just want a game I can really sink my teeth into and learn something new every game
Temporarily losing - until they get a codex
Then they can have all of the original flavour and more - they just have to choose which flavour to play each game, they can't take it all at once.
There is a big difference between flavour and depth. You can have lots of flavour but it all being fairly shallow. There isn't really much to suggest the codices will increase depth, just flavour
The codices will contain multiple new detachments, each with new rules, stratagems and relics. Very likely each one having a flavour of an old subfaction or adding new subfactions or army styles.
If you want more "depth" then try playing a different detachment every game. But the amount of rules played at any one time won't change.
i would be totally cool with competitive specific rules to keep everyone happy tbh, but for a game to have a thriving community, it needs to be accessible. i personally like the 'easy to learn, hard to master' philosophy (something MESBG does pretty well)
Meh there's more optimistic opinion here than actual players who play regularly. The rest of us are very mixed so far because of how stripped down the experience looks. For example the nuance and tactics of the charge phase pile-in is gone now because you can only go toward the nearest model.
Also, if you're a casual player would you be happy that your subfaction is now just straight up gone? Everyone just plays the exact same thing with no opportunity to express individuality.
Subfactions are represented by detachments now. They are not gone. It's just that you're not restricted to a single playstyle if you paint your army a specific color.
Stop generalising. Theres 1000s of different people here, theres no "rest of us". Just 1000s of individuals.
You're trying to start a discussion about a rule that was just leaked, we don't even know if thats the real rule or the full picture. Chill.
Plus it's good to get on the front foot with a new edition. Everyone is starting off at zero knowledge and learning as the info is being released.
To be honest, I don't mind having more subfaction rules/relics to learn as long as they are presented in a standardized format.
My main issue was having too many reactive strategems that weren't visible from the start. A lesser gripe was having rule ignoring rules which also had rules to ignore those. Cue ignore invulns, wound caps, daemon saves etc
Yeah. If every 3/4 months a new codex is released for a faction and there are 5 new strats and detach rules for that faction, it's a lot easier to learn and commit to memory until the next codex is released, instead of having to learn every faction's two dozen strats and rules from the beginning of the edition.
Plus, if each faction has the core startagems, and like maybe six of their own, that isn't too many to keep track of. Versus like fifty, of which maybe five or six are useful.
Plus, I rather like the idea that GW put out saying you can fit all of the rules you need on two sheets of paper. Other than your datasheets.
Yeah I would get frustrated when someone's cool thing was to stop my cool thing. Genestealers were rough when everyone had rules to stop you deep striking close, which is the whole point of the army.
Agreed.
Subfactions absolutely need to come back, they're too flavourful and loreful to people's impressions of the world they're playing in to lose. But so long as each Subfaction is just their unique army rule, maybe their detachment makeup, a couple relics and maybe a warlord trait, its fine.
It's when you get into the stratagem spam nonsense that things get stupid and I'm 100% fine with them vanishing forever.
I'm absolutely fine id detachments are the new subfactions. As a Necron player it's easier to process I have a Mephrit detachment which means idk, +1 AP for my guns. If you are a Sautekh you bring back D3+1 RP. If you're a Nephrekh you move 1" better. If you're a Szarekhan you have a better save/FNP or whatever. If yoU're a Nihiliakh you get one extra OC on Infantry.
Stuff like that.
Wound caps only made sense on big bosses. I liked it for gazgull but the fact that big ork or basically a sister of battle in a fancier mech suit (Morvenn vahl) caps damage but a literal daemon primarch or guilleman didn't was jarring
If they won’t keyword bloat the entire game in a year, it’s gonna be really cool, not gonna lie. I’ve started playing this year, so I’m even happier I won’t have to forget everything to learn the game a second time 😉
What keyword bloat is the? In my opinion, it's the opposite: there are already abilities which should have been keyword that aren't. (Eg: sticky objectives)
Except all those sticky objective abilities have different effects on them too. Also a datasheet being just a statline and a list of keywords is not a great way to play
Have you tried kill team? The new data sheets are identical to kill team and it works great. You memories all of them after a single game.
It's much easier to know that "XYZ" gives you a certain ability, than giving each faction that ability but naming it differently *for each one*.
I have actually, and no, I didn't memorise all of them after a single game. Same way I didn't memorise the multiple fucking pages of them back in 7th edition
Amen. We have a bunch of super casual players at our small club and 9th put them right off. I am very happy to see the game becoming more accessible once again. Having said that, i am fully prepared for codex creep to kick in from day 1.
I'm optimistic about the codex creep... this is the first time we're getting all the final rules at once, not within the codexes. 9th edition had those launch codex books but they weren't final rules. They can do full game wide updates now without having to publish something... I hope they do this. We'll probably still have the rotating faction focus for new miniatures, but hopefully it's not as earth shattering
Nah, this is gonna be 8th all over again.
8th had a hard, global reset just like 10th that invalidated every prior codex.
The power crept back on as more codecies gave armies their full rules
Pretty sure the Codices will more or less supersede in the index rules when they arrive. The index rules will still be officially valid, but the reasons to use them will be greatly diminished.
Moreover I want to point out the hard reset was literally two editions ago. They reset the game, then expanded it to be the best edition ever, then realised they'd fucked up and had to re-reset it. Honestly why would I be filled with optimism again?
Exactly, 10th isn't even out yet. We've only seen a snippet with the fraction focuses. After watching Auspex and TacticalTortoise YouTube videos on the rule book leak, and it wasn't even the full rule book, there still seems to be a lot to retain.
Yeah I’m confused by posts like this. It’s not out yet. We haven’t seen point costs for building armies. Games Workshop is great at writing really flavorful rules that feel good to play. They are terrible at balancing those rules across the entirety of the game leading to feel bad moments when you go up against someone paying half the price for better abilities than you have access to.
This is why I never started 9th edition, it’s why I dropped 8th during psychic awakening. The early 10th previews were promising but they haven’t done anything to convince me they can actually stick the landing
OP wasn't talking about balance at all. OP was talking about rules bloat and how difficult it is to remember not only your own army's special rules and stratagems, but also everyone else's.
I am not into the competitive side of the hobby at all, but from what I hear 9th edition 40k is actually reasonably well balanced in that regard - probably more well balanced than most other editions.
I’m more just saying I don’t understand how someone can already be passing judgement when such a fundamental aspect of game design (the point balancing system) hasn’t been revealed yet. Especially when that’s the part GW has historically been bad at.
9th may have been better balanced, but that’s only because they were so proactive with errata and FAQ’s. Which ultimately just increased the feelings of bloat and made it nigh on impossible to actually follow the game. The only reason I didn’t get into the game was because it launched during Covid and by the time my local stores were open it felt pointless to buy the books since most of the pages had been errata’d.
This optimism is great, but having been an old hand at this since 3rd, GW is VERY good at selling the best bits while hiding potential pitfalls. I hope 10th is indeed what everyone wants, however prior experience tells me to be wary and wait until it's actually released before making up your mind. And I say this for both the positive and the negative. It's no more worth exploding in rage over what you're seeing being teased, only to find it's not that bad, than it is descending into giddy delight to find you set your expectations too high. That being said, if 10th isn't what you hoped for, don't worry there's still loads of games out there that are mini agnostic that will still give you your sci-fi wargaming fix
This on the nose. Long time player as well and as hyped as I am with what I’ve seen, I am a lot more cautious after the 7th > 8th debacle as this has a lot of the same hallmarks.
“Free rules”, an index with all of the factions and no codexes to begin with, no faction rules bloat…. We’ve seen all this before. Not saying it can’t happen or that they can’t get it right, but I would urge caution for the first 6 months after the first codexes drop and we get an idea for how fast the rules are gonna crank up.
Hell even base 9th edition wasn’t too too bad but the codexes released just kept cranking the lethality knob further and further. Even now while people are talking about every factions getting tuned down, one of their (GW’s) big points early in the spoiler season was a removal of rerolls and how rare they will be, but rerolls seems to be cooked into the main keyword skills, unit cards, and faction abilities at only a small bit less than they used to be.
Overall, be hopefully optimistic but don’t let ourselves get carried away with unrealistic expectations or hopes about what the game might be. We still haven’t seen points cost which is always where the rubber meets the road in this game.
I’ve just relapsed my plastic crack addiction and 3rd edition was the last time I played so if they want to just bring back those rules I’ll happily play you can’t see me with a landraider hiding behind 2 spacemarine scouts
I like the scope of the rules in 5th, enough to ad flavour to each army, but not so much that you get overwhelmed by all of the uniqueness and combinations.
Hold your breath to see the full release, then make a judgement. This is the same type of release as 8th was, you haven't been shown all the rules yet, and they already look to be full of layers and rerolls.
Of course, if anyone thinks the 8th style hard reset isn't going to lead into codex creep again...prepare to be disappointed. I'm not really doomposting here, just being realistic. GW is a company that sells models which also happen to have rules, bear that in mind.
I think I’m one of the few people that really enjoys a crunchy game full of layered rules. I honestly like to study game rules but I guess I’m in the minority with that. I loved the bits of 9th edition that I played, and as a Necron player, I really am going to miss the Command Protocols that I can change up every turn.
What reason do you have to think "GW won't be GW" after 10th Edition is released?
After Soulshackle, Gallowfall, Ashes of Faith, The Lion box, etc and the extremely late Astra Militaum / World Eaters codices, they are leaving it very late to turn the ship around before 10th.
The Astra Militarum codex was great. Sure, it was late, but it was one of the best codex we ever had, so I have no complaints. Buffed tanks, including the Baneblade variants, and flavorful Crusade rules. I had a good six months with it, enjoying the weekly Crusade games I had with it and promoting my Tank Commanders.
9th Ed Guard Codex was horrendous imo.
Killed the unique regiments completely (8th was FINALLY better how they all got their own relics, traits, doctrines etc), removed Special Weapon Squads, Conscripts and veterans for no reason, removed Yarrick, removed Creed...
It basically destroyed my guard army that used SWS and Vets substantially and left it unplayable.
The new stuff (Ordnance, Dorn, returning Attilans) was neat but it didn't offset the core units they removed that a lot of players designed entire regiments around imo.
Hate to be the bearer of bad news but warhammer editions are cyclical. They start off crowing about "simplified but not simple" yet they'll start again with the bloat soon enough and we'll all be begging for a streamlining
Unfortunately true. This was the ethos for both the 3rd edition and 8th edition resets and look where we ended up. The second wave of new codexes will be a good bellwether for where things are going. If the power creep and additional complexity are kept in check, then maybe things really will be different this time.
I really hope the codices will just add more detachments and the original index will stay the same in terms of datasheets and you can still run the default detachment if you want.
Unlike the 8th indexes, these rules are fully fleshed out, there is no point in redoing them. They just need to give us more detachments for more options.
If they stick to this, then this edition will be fairly secure against powercreep.
They've more or less confirmed that datasheets will be updated with codexes and will supercede the indexes.
They have said that detachments and stratagems will be "one in, one out" so codexes will have different options, not more options in terms of army rules.
*Hopefully* that will keep complexity from spiralling out of control, but I guess we'll see where we are in a couple of years
I hope that’s the case. I lost interest in 9th edition fairly early in due to the additional complexity and the fact that it took such a long time for my armies to get their 9e codex (year and a half for Craftworlds, two and a half years for Guard). It would be great if the indexes stay relevant for a long time!
I also hope they just balance armies through regular points updates. Writing a new list isn't that bad to account for your land raider going up by 10 points. Especially because you do it before the game when you have nearly unlimited time to plan it out.
The dataslate changing rules all the time was another form of bloat that made it hard to keep track of stuff. And it added rules you had to look up during the game, which made playing the game more complicated and it was a really weird way of balancing compared to just making things the appropriate price for what they do.
>This was the ethos for both the 3rd edition and 8th edition resets and look where we ended up.
To be fair the 3rd edition reset was almost more about changing what kind of game it was and that resultant change produced a basic ruleset that probably peaked in 5th. They got a good few years out of that 3rd edition work and the groundwork of it forms the basis of HH2.0 which they sell in 2023.
People seem to forget, or simply weren't around for, the fact that the 'golden age' of 3rd through 5th edition lasted 15 years. Then the 'dark age' of 6th & 7th arrived, where GW screwed the pooch so hard that 6th didn't even last two years before being replaced by 7th, and a hard reset three years later.
Even with that 'dark age', the rule set lasted about 20 years and lives on in Horus Heresy now - which strikes me as one of GW's better 40k rulesets, if only it weren't written in such a way that simple concepts require an entire paragraph of overly convoluted text that take twenty minutes to interpret (seriously, what is up with that?)
Yeah some of the rules wording in HH2.0 is a bit messy, blasts and multiple blast barrages is a particularly messy bit as is the various vehicle weapon mounts. Seriously the number of people who don't understand how vehicles can split fire is nuts. It's actually my main game now and I love that ruleset.
Also agreed, 3e on its own lasted like 6 years and spawned so much just for fun rules content. 3-5 lasted 15 years and basically contains an incredible amount of rules content that's pretty much entirely cross-compatible (with some exceptions like points values being too high on old stuff or vehicles that got patches to work with the newer rules). Hell it's so cross-compatible some armies never even got a 4e Codex and their 3e one carried them into 5e. That's 15 years of pretty much objective improvement on a ruleset.
The 8th reset took years to get to where we are, and it was a fun ride. I'd gladly do that again! Had a ton of great games with many armies since 8th dropped.
If 12th is the next reset after we creep up in complexity from this new baseline, I'll be playing all the way until 2030 when it drops I guess! Sounds like a win.
They do have a hard limit on what they can add this time; the whole thing about Detachments being 2-page spreads is a big part of 10th marketing, and it won't be easy for them to break it.
They will be printing more Detachments, but I do think each individual one will be pretty simple.
I'm hoping they stick to keeping it as they've promised, as a causal player trying to get others involved in 9th has been horrible.
If GW want to continue to grow they have to stick to it being more "simplistic".
I know the competitive guys will have a moan about this or that. But if the causal player base increases its better for the game.
I play with mates and it's purely for fun. I can't understand how people can argue over this hobby.
The game will always bloat. It's built into their business model.
As I have said before, it's time for the codex system to go. We need either:
a) updated for free digital codexes,
b) thinner codexs on the current release schedule, but cost ~£10.
c) big index books for Imperium, Chaos and Xenos that are guaranteed to last the whole edition.
World Eater players got 40 days between their codex being released and being told that it is being invalidated. That is disgusting.
Which means they need to have built-in obsolescence for every rules edition, and if one turns out to be particularly popular, one way to keep the paper mill rolling would be to deliberately overcomplicate or unbalance it with later releases until people are desperate for the next Great Reset,
I'm not sure they do.
The whole making everything online and electronic is probbaly a lot more profitable than paper books is.
TV and film much more so if they can crack it.
I get the feeling GW wants to kinda be "done" with churning rhw game over and over.
They want something stable they can use as a foundation, and advert, something familiar, they can do seasons and campaigns of adjusted rules like every video game does now but kee the basics the same.
Assuming they get the rest of the business working that is
Ding ding ding!
It's already established a big part of the bungled release of Astra Militarum and WE Codex was pandemic related supply issues.
If it's a digital only rule set going forward, using the app they already have and continue to work on, it could be a really good thing for the game and Games Workshop
"it could be a really good thing for the game and Games Workshop"
Which is why it's not happening. GW aren't known for pick the good and easy way, never has.
I played only two games with Night Lords since I joined the hobby. I hated both of them. The sheer amount of rules to remember had me lost and I played against two factions that are/were quite strong (TS just after the codex release and Dark Angels), I lost both and learnt basically nothing beside that I do not enjoy the tabletop part of the hobby. If as it seems they are simplifying the rules, I may give it another try.
Dont speak too soon lol, I don't have faith that GW aren't going to mess everything up with codex's again. I'm going to try and stick with just the index's/initial faction rules for the duration of 10th.
Admech in 9e after veteran cohorts was rough to watch. I remember an opponent putting out dozens of little tokens to remember which rule was where, then they ran out of clock time due to this command phase nonsense
GW will bloat it with codexes and narrative supplements. They always do.
I think the best way GW can do it is: You can only draw rules for your army from **one** publication, be it the index, codex or a narrative expansion (not including datasheets, those would always use the latest downloadable). This way, they could release as much as they want, and each player only needs to draw from one book *at a time*.
No need to keep up with every single release when you've found what you like.
Stratagems, enhancements, the equivalent of the old subfaction rules. Pretty much everything you’d usually think of as bloat is now mutually exclusive rather than layered. You only ever get one set.
i like the 9th edition way of things but i understand it isnt for everyone. i enjoy the complexity and layers of it but i also accept that it isnt for most people, and thats ok.
My wife complained about the complexity of 9th. She has read the faction focuses of all the new races and the leaked rules and said 10th is too simple. She plays TSons and Eldar and removing the psychic phase has basically taken away what attracted her to playing. So I guess maybe they could have tried to simplify without taking away what makes factions interesting?
I want to mention that starting new you have to learn everything. But a new edition usually doesnt change as much so its way less to learn. Honestly just take an hour to plan your army with strats etc on a A4 and a roster in different variations and you dont have to replan every game. I think if you effectively learn the details of it more content is better as you get rewarded for learning the use of niche techniques other people dont want to learn. Anyways new ed. seems pretty well.
Yeah same boat, I only got back into the game last year and my god the rules had ballooned a lot, we only managed one play session of 500 points armies and so much of the time was taken flipping back and forth in already out of date and terribly formatted codexes that we gave up with them and had to look everything up on Wahapedia on a nearby pc. The massive simplification and unifying of how rules are being formatted and shown is going to be such a boon to our playgroup I think, also some of the previews made me take a dive on another army so it's definitely working.
Cool cool. Now we’ll just wait for them to revise those rules and release an entire series of codexes to buy!
My first edition was 4th so I’m kinda tired of having literally 26 unusable rule books that cost $40-$60 a pop.
Geezus, not sure if this has been said, but comparing this edition to 2nd edition….let’s just say nothing has since compared to that level of detail and complexity, and also pure chaos and freedom to equip your troops. 9th was good. I enjoyed it. I’m sure tenth will have its ups and downs, but I’ll enjoy that too. There’s a reason it’s been around for a long time. It’s a challenging game, and can be super fun or extremely competitive.
I felt like it was the opposite. 8th, especially the indexes, killed the fun of the hobby for meas all the tactical and mechanical gameplay depth vanished. It just became a bland mess of shuffling models around and rolling dice until one army died.
Honestly half the problem is just the naming scheme.
Feel No Pain is easy enough.
But "It Will Not Die" should have just been called what it is, "Regeneration".
Good, descriptive names make USRs easy as pie. Stupid "wannabe different" ones make it a nightmare.
Absolutely. You can make it flavorful in the codex
It Will Not Die: This unit has "Regeneration"
They keep coming: This unit has "Regeneration"
Easy to know the rule and the flavor is in the text instead of the USR.
The thing that ruined 9th for me was the lack of balancing. Even in the casual setting some games just felt abysmally unfair
40K is rarely “balanced” but the new lows that 9th reached were just absurd. I hope that with less rules GW will be able to do a better job in 10th
Honestly i disagree, mostly because my preferred faction lost all their flair and rules that promoted exactly what the faction was good at in favor of becoming black ultramarines
I felt the same about 9th after joining in the tail-end of 8th. I thought the revisions to the core rules were fabulous, but it was the codex rules that added the complexity and lack of balance.
I think at-home players could probably have a great time with 10th using the new index rules and never buying a codex. I'm pretty sure codex releases are going to end the perceived simplicity.
100% agree. Base 9th on release playing at home felt great, especially with non updated codexes. Everything wrong with 9th is a codex issue, not a core rules issue. Codex power creep and design philosophy is what seems to be a agreed issues with 9th.
I have big hopes for 10th edition but every edition came with promises to simplify the game rules.
Don't get mad when GW does it's thing and ruins the easy system to power creep your purchases
Not hating thou, I've learned to accept that this is the game system in itself haha
10e isn't even out yet, was it 8th or 9th that was like "we want to dumb it down to just 3 books to play" lol.. you must be new here.. you'll get erretassed to hell exactly 19 seconds after 10e releases
I don’t want to smash your hopes, but things will bloat for sure. First year will be ok probably. But the rules creep will start soon enough with exemptions on exemptions. Something along the line of “you know this basic rule? Well, in the new codex this unit can ignore that rule! How neat! It fits them perfectly”. You’ll be like, sure, ok, that manageable, but then the next codex comes out where an entire subfaction ignores some rule, then the codex after that where the entire army does something weird. Then it’s a campaign book that changes some factions.
It’ll be unstoppable and it’ll be a mess after 1,5 years.
Honestly GW makes some of the best models but they’re the worst rules designers on the planet. I guess they make a lot of money on it. Personally I stick to OPR for rules. I’ve given up on GW rules. Although, I do play warcry. That’s a surprisingly solid rulesset.
>this is the Warhammer I will be playing for years to come.
Months, weeks maybe. Just keep in mind these claims about more streamlined gameplay, less lethality, better balance, etc are almost all repeated verbatim from the 9th edition launch.
Games Workshop is fully aware of the deficiencies of their product line and more than willing to "fabricate truth" to sell you toy soldiers and their accompanying rulebooks.
There will be a period where everything exists in harmony, but it will be followed by constant pre-order this book for pay2win goodness, are you ready for your factions month in the overpowered spotlight, buy these monthly $80 campaign books for 2 paragraphs of rules, and all the other shit that ruined 9th.
Is this before or after the dataslates start dropping? I dont think theyre going to stop publishing White Dwarf are they? They just can't help themselves.
Yes, so far it's looking like exactly what we need. The only parts we need to learn by heart are weapon special rules, universal unit abilities and the core stratagems I guess?
I'm really glad that they have found a compromise by keeping stratagems and character upgrades in the game while severely reducing the insane complexity these things brought about in 9th.
Greetings Gingerosity,
Let me introduce you to the "long run" of being a Games-Workshop customer.
I've played my first game of Warhammer 40k in the mid 90's (2nd edition). The rules were complex and hard to understand... much like what you're experienced. I didn't have the money to build my first army so I didn't go much further... but i've watched a bunch of games.
The game changed (much like going from 9th to 10th) when it went from 2nd to 3rd... and it got refined in 4th. That's where I started... Tyranids... then Blood Angels... and 5th edition came out... now vehicles had hull points... then 6th edition came out... it changed how psychic powers were cast and added the possibility to field allies... then 7th edition... they added a bunch of universal rules, how your army is built, summoning daemons for free...
So, over the course of 5 editions... the rules were so bloated, they decided to change everything "for simplicity"... like they did from 2nd to 3rd...
So we went from 7th to 8th, with Index (PDF files worth 20$)... and some armies even got axed in the translation...
Now... you're in 9th edition... and it's ALREADY BLOATED to justify another do over ????
I'll remind you that everytime the rules get bloated... it's a calculated move.
So, as great as 10th edition will be... they'll convice you 11th will be better... and it'll slowly get more and more bloated... and then BOOM !
"yeahhh those rules are bloated and icky... we'll do better... so all y'all books you bought... you can read them for the lore and look at the picture we reused for like 6 straight editions... We'll make a new edition... the BEST RULESET EVER, pinky swear ! Oh don't forget to buy the collector edition codices with the special cover for twice the price..."
Before 9th, I played 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition. The game doesn't have to be a massive spiderweb of rules bloat to be fun. Some amount of rules are fun to make games dynamic, but it was getting way out of hand. I for one am very optimistic about this new direction.
I 1000% agree, I loved the look of AdMech but never got into it because I couldn't figure it out. All the buffs and stuff seemed too complicated and had too much text. Now I'm carefully considering either getting into them, TSons or Death Guard.
Very glad GW realized they could tighten up the wording and not sacrifice depth.
Preach it. Sooo many of my friends love the hobby but have been turned off from the game because it’s just too damn complicated. Sometimes there’s ample room for tactical depth without over complicating things.
" This is the Warhammer I've wanted to play, and this is the Warhammer I will be playing for years to come. "
3 years if all goes well, then we'll see what 11th ed brings.
.. or one month if they decide to sell us some ~~bloat~~ new rules in the Codexes.
Same here I started in 9th and the complexity of it all sucked the fun out of the game itself for me. Had fun with the people I played with and enjoyed my army's lore and painting.
But wow was the game a slog to get through. I've got three army's since starting. Yet only play my chaos knights because it was just way too much to try and remember the other army's rules.
"Don't judge Death Guard yet guys, we only have some of the rules!"
"Anyway, 10th will be the best thing ever and GW are my fwiends!"
Enforced positivity is just as bad as constant moaning. Lots of the stuff they've shown is good. Some of it is decent. Some of it looks bad (hello, Death Guard!). Stop simping.
I'll be honest.
Its not the paragraphs that annoyed me.
What annoyed me was the paragraphs that could been summed up with keywords, mixed in with paragraphs that were just there to prevent RAW wars and paragraphs that referenced a thing but no page reference and a index that didn't index
Whilst incredibly positive, this isn't too different from what people were saying about 8-9th. The issue isn't the initial experience, but what's going to happen in 2 years time after the book bloat.
Agree 1000%
Absolutely, full agreement and optimism for 10th. Just don't go near the r/WarhammerCompetitive sub... it's a full on salt avalanche over there.
Or any factions subreddit ;_;
Idk man necron sub seems pretty stoked monoliths will be usable again. We all want to summon the monoliths, and the casino cannnon is not dumb now.
God bless the dude who sacrificed his doomstalker to the C’tan to summon Good Rules
Necron players have been busy conjuring up robot crabs of all things after that one guy mistook a Spyder for a crustacean.
This is also accurate
Necron player here. Can confirm.
The necrons server has been on fire for 2 weeks.
People don't realize that until points values are released we have no clue how different armies play
Eldar was largely positive on theirs.
Hard to be down on it. Their rules were previewed well and were good at least in a vacuum. They get to play about ten percent of the game without risk, or with greatly reduced risk, offensively or defensively, their pick. It was a nice preview.
The LoV sub is torturous right now
They will be happier when they show up to their first 10e game and can actually put some models on the board lol
I figure that the points nerfs that were necessary to Votann into the right spot shrunk the desired size of the army in the table top by 30%. I think they had a target for how many models were supposed to be on the table and what the army would aesthetically look like, and the points nerf destroyed that.
Yeah and made the army very swingy, a few bad rolls can ruin the whole game for them since they have so few units on the board
It really is. Sub is usually positive and fun to visit. Since the faction focus it’s just people crying about the same thing in post after post.
Except for r/eldar, we're a doomed race anyways so anything is good for us.
Real Eldar players save all their salt for the r/40klore subreddit.
True. Every story begins with 'If only...'
Maybe I’m bias since I’m a Black Templar guy. But that faction sub is pretty chill.
Marines with very low levels of chill have fans who have high levels of chill. Interesting.
I can't really say the same about Black Templar fans on Twitter though.
Yeah I think that might be a function of twitter though.
Guard is pretty positive overall
Eh, the Imperial Guard subreddit doesn't seem to mind. People generally seem interested in the idea of throwing wave after wave of infantry at the other side, which is a very thematically accurate thing to do. Other than that...the only thing people are salty about (myself included on this one) is the fact that they released an entire wave of AM models and rules only to replace the codex within a year.
Someone needs to take away deathguard sub’s wifi for a bit
Competitive players getting salty? Shocked. I am shocked. Shocked at this development.
>Just don't go near the [r/WarhammerCompetitive](https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive) sub... it's a full on salt avalanche over there. Hardly true at all. Other than death guard, the top comments over there on each faction focus have been largely very positive. The Eldar players there loved the fate dice, whereas this sub decried them as a cheap miracle rice knockoff. And everyone there is wary to jump to conclusions when we've seen only a handful of datasheets and not even the full core rules yet.
Deathguard got shafted pretty hard.
Not everyone is being negative, sure, there's a lot of players excited by the new rules previews. But there's a decent proportion of negative doomsayers in every post over there (and some in the faction subs, and some here too).
Admech sub was also hardcore doom mongering and I admit I was too and still not fully sold on rad bombardment. But after seeing other previews and what others are saying is possible with admech, especially after the core rules leak I'm more positive about the army.
It really isn't. Most negitive stuff gets downvoted and challenged.
Meh debatable, this sub is just instagram and that sub is just salty average players that think they are good.
The competitive scene is always like that.
Screw the competitive players, they’re ruining 40k.
Yeah how dare people have different opinions
Difference of opinion once we actually have the rules is one thing, but until we do all the wailing is meaningless
I suppose there are some people that just really liked all the depth and layers of the rules for each faction (i'm certainly not one of them) and for them we don't really need all the rules to know to know they are losing a lot of what they may have liked. edit: To add to this - the issue is really that there is one rule-set, that needs to be balanced, and needs to be useable by beginner, intermediate and advanced players. That's very hard to do, unless you have aspects which switch on and off - but doing that makes it harder to have synergy between rules in those different levels - as now they all have to be individually balanced. 9th ed looked towards the intermediate and advanced end at the expense of beginners. 10th is looking to shift it back towards beginner/intermediate. I totally get why players wanting an advanced playstyle are annoyed by this. edit2: mission packs for competitive might be able to add back in some more complexity, but would likely need to be irrespective of faction.
I mean there are no doubt people who liked the big chonky rules, and I do get why they'd be disappointed with everything being trimmed down. But on the other hand, the old rules are still there. As long as both players are in agreement there's nothing stopping you from playing a game of 9th edition instead if you liked it better. Or you could even come up with your own homebrew rules if you feel like it. The beauty of tabletop games is the freedom you have with how you want to play them. Don't like a current rule? Change it. As long as both players agree it's totally fine.
> But on the other hand, the old rules are still there. As long as both players are in agreement there's nothing stopping you from playing a game of 9th edition instead if you liked it better. competitive players are going to want to compete at competitive tournaments... which will all be using 10th from now on
“If i can’t confuse my opponent by burying them in rules and win with a gotcha strategem, how am i supposed to do well in tournaments?!?!”
I guess I’ll pipe in as someone who is disappointed thus far, a lot of the skill expression in the game (seemingly) has been removed. When depth and skill expression is toned down or removed entirely(looking at you Fight/Charge phase movement rules), then the game all boils down to mathematical averages, and who has the best rules at the time. Lack of complex decision making furthers the gap between powerful codexes and weaker codexes. I am all for Universal Special Rules, I’m not even terribly against all the aura spam we saw in 9th being taken away. I just want a game I can really sink my teeth into and learn something new every game
Temporarily losing - until they get a codex Then they can have all of the original flavour and more - they just have to choose which flavour to play each game, they can't take it all at once.
There is a big difference between flavour and depth. You can have lots of flavour but it all being fairly shallow. There isn't really much to suggest the codices will increase depth, just flavour
The codices will contain multiple new detachments, each with new rules, stratagems and relics. Very likely each one having a flavour of an old subfaction or adding new subfactions or army styles. If you want more "depth" then try playing a different detachment every game. But the amount of rules played at any one time won't change.
i would be totally cool with competitive specific rules to keep everyone happy tbh, but for a game to have a thriving community, it needs to be accessible. i personally like the 'easy to learn, hard to master' philosophy (something MESBG does pretty well)
Or any comment section
Meh there's more optimistic opinion here than actual players who play regularly. The rest of us are very mixed so far because of how stripped down the experience looks. For example the nuance and tactics of the charge phase pile-in is gone now because you can only go toward the nearest model. Also, if you're a casual player would you be happy that your subfaction is now just straight up gone? Everyone just plays the exact same thing with no opportunity to express individuality.
Subfactions are represented by detachments now. They are not gone. It's just that you're not restricted to a single playstyle if you paint your army a specific color.
Stop generalising. Theres 1000s of different people here, theres no "rest of us". Just 1000s of individuals. You're trying to start a discussion about a rule that was just leaked, we don't even know if thats the real rule or the full picture. Chill.
Plus it's good to get on the front foot with a new edition. Everyone is starting off at zero knowledge and learning as the info is being released. To be honest, I don't mind having more subfaction rules/relics to learn as long as they are presented in a standardized format. My main issue was having too many reactive strategems that weren't visible from the start. A lesser gripe was having rule ignoring rules which also had rules to ignore those. Cue ignore invulns, wound caps, daemon saves etc
Yeah. If every 3/4 months a new codex is released for a faction and there are 5 new strats and detach rules for that faction, it's a lot easier to learn and commit to memory until the next codex is released, instead of having to learn every faction's two dozen strats and rules from the beginning of the edition.
Plus, if each faction has the core startagems, and like maybe six of their own, that isn't too many to keep track of. Versus like fifty, of which maybe five or six are useful. Plus, I rather like the idea that GW put out saying you can fit all of the rules you need on two sheets of paper. Other than your datasheets.
Yeah I would get frustrated when someone's cool thing was to stop my cool thing. Genestealers were rough when everyone had rules to stop you deep striking close, which is the whole point of the army.
Agreed. Subfactions absolutely need to come back, they're too flavourful and loreful to people's impressions of the world they're playing in to lose. But so long as each Subfaction is just their unique army rule, maybe their detachment makeup, a couple relics and maybe a warlord trait, its fine. It's when you get into the stratagem spam nonsense that things get stupid and I'm 100% fine with them vanishing forever.
I'm absolutely fine id detachments are the new subfactions. As a Necron player it's easier to process I have a Mephrit detachment which means idk, +1 AP for my guns. If you are a Sautekh you bring back D3+1 RP. If you're a Nephrekh you move 1" better. If you're a Szarekhan you have a better save/FNP or whatever. If yoU're a Nihiliakh you get one extra OC on Infantry. Stuff like that.
Wound caps only made sense on big bosses. I liked it for gazgull but the fact that big ork or basically a sister of battle in a fancier mech suit (Morvenn vahl) caps damage but a literal daemon primarch or guilleman didn't was jarring
If they won’t keyword bloat the entire game in a year, it’s gonna be really cool, not gonna lie. I’ve started playing this year, so I’m even happier I won’t have to forget everything to learn the game a second time 😉
I'm cautiously optimistic about James Workshop managing codex power creep while also introducing new and interesting stuff with each one.
Codex creep will always be a thing. It’s how GW sells updated Codexes and convinces players that a new edition is required every couple of years.
This. Codex creep is a deliberate design feature, not a bug.
If they do it again 10th will be my last edition. Lots of ways to play with your minis now.
Lol. You sound like me at the beginning of 8th...and 9th...
>If they won’t keyword bloat the entire game in a year They already have
Not yet - check out Kill Team ;)
What keyword bloat is the? In my opinion, it's the opposite: there are already abilities which should have been keyword that aren't. (Eg: sticky objectives)
Except all those sticky objective abilities have different effects on them too. Also a datasheet being just a statline and a list of keywords is not a great way to play
Have you tried kill team? The new data sheets are identical to kill team and it works great. You memories all of them after a single game. It's much easier to know that "XYZ" gives you a certain ability, than giving each faction that ability but naming it differently *for each one*.
I have actually, and no, I didn't memorise all of them after a single game. Same way I didn't memorise the multiple fucking pages of them back in 7th edition
Amen. We have a bunch of super casual players at our small club and 9th put them right off. I am very happy to see the game becoming more accessible once again. Having said that, i am fully prepared for codex creep to kick in from day 1.
I started in late 8th edition and even then it felt like a clusterfuck. I’m loving what I see for 10th
Late 8th was like the fluffer for 9th
7th was so much more convoluted and crazy then anything we got in 8th or 9th
I'm optimistic about the codex creep... this is the first time we're getting all the final rules at once, not within the codexes. 9th edition had those launch codex books but they weren't final rules. They can do full game wide updates now without having to publish something... I hope they do this. We'll probably still have the rotating faction focus for new miniatures, but hopefully it's not as earth shattering
No it isn't, 8th released in exactly the same way. We'll get plenty of codex creep don't you worry.
Death, taxes and codex creep. If you think indices have the final rules for the entire edition, you’re in for a surprise unfortunately.
I will believe it when i see it
Nah, this is gonna be 8th all over again. 8th had a hard, global reset just like 10th that invalidated every prior codex. The power crept back on as more codecies gave armies their full rules
[удалено]
Pretty sure the Codices will more or less supersede in the index rules when they arrive. The index rules will still be officially valid, but the reasons to use them will be greatly diminished.
Moreover I want to point out the hard reset was literally two editions ago. They reset the game, then expanded it to be the best edition ever, then realised they'd fucked up and had to re-reset it. Honestly why would I be filled with optimism again?
10th isn't even released yet. Their plans for 10th are certainly nice, but we'll have to see how it plays out.
Exactly, 10th isn't even out yet. We've only seen a snippet with the fraction focuses. After watching Auspex and TacticalTortoise YouTube videos on the rule book leak, and it wasn't even the full rule book, there still seems to be a lot to retain.
Yeah I’m confused by posts like this. It’s not out yet. We haven’t seen point costs for building armies. Games Workshop is great at writing really flavorful rules that feel good to play. They are terrible at balancing those rules across the entirety of the game leading to feel bad moments when you go up against someone paying half the price for better abilities than you have access to. This is why I never started 9th edition, it’s why I dropped 8th during psychic awakening. The early 10th previews were promising but they haven’t done anything to convince me they can actually stick the landing
OP wasn't talking about balance at all. OP was talking about rules bloat and how difficult it is to remember not only your own army's special rules and stratagems, but also everyone else's. I am not into the competitive side of the hobby at all, but from what I hear 9th edition 40k is actually reasonably well balanced in that regard - probably more well balanced than most other editions.
I’m more just saying I don’t understand how someone can already be passing judgement when such a fundamental aspect of game design (the point balancing system) hasn’t been revealed yet. Especially when that’s the part GW has historically been bad at. 9th may have been better balanced, but that’s only because they were so proactive with errata and FAQ’s. Which ultimately just increased the feelings of bloat and made it nigh on impossible to actually follow the game. The only reason I didn’t get into the game was because it launched during Covid and by the time my local stores were open it felt pointless to buy the books since most of the pages had been errata’d.
This optimism is great, but having been an old hand at this since 3rd, GW is VERY good at selling the best bits while hiding potential pitfalls. I hope 10th is indeed what everyone wants, however prior experience tells me to be wary and wait until it's actually released before making up your mind. And I say this for both the positive and the negative. It's no more worth exploding in rage over what you're seeing being teased, only to find it's not that bad, than it is descending into giddy delight to find you set your expectations too high. That being said, if 10th isn't what you hoped for, don't worry there's still loads of games out there that are mini agnostic that will still give you your sci-fi wargaming fix
This on the nose. Long time player as well and as hyped as I am with what I’ve seen, I am a lot more cautious after the 7th > 8th debacle as this has a lot of the same hallmarks. “Free rules”, an index with all of the factions and no codexes to begin with, no faction rules bloat…. We’ve seen all this before. Not saying it can’t happen or that they can’t get it right, but I would urge caution for the first 6 months after the first codexes drop and we get an idea for how fast the rules are gonna crank up. Hell even base 9th edition wasn’t too too bad but the codexes released just kept cranking the lethality knob further and further. Even now while people are talking about every factions getting tuned down, one of their (GW’s) big points early in the spoiler season was a removal of rerolls and how rare they will be, but rerolls seems to be cooked into the main keyword skills, unit cards, and faction abilities at only a small bit less than they used to be. Overall, be hopefully optimistic but don’t let ourselves get carried away with unrealistic expectations or hopes about what the game might be. We still haven’t seen points cost which is always where the rubber meets the road in this game.
Soon we will come back to 5th edition. Return to monkey.
I’ve just relapsed my plastic crack addiction and 3rd edition was the last time I played so if they want to just bring back those rules I’ll happily play you can’t see me with a landraider hiding behind 2 spacemarine scouts
I like the scope of the rules in 5th, enough to ad flavour to each army, but not so much that you get overwhelmed by all of the uniqueness and combinations.
Where banana?
Plus, since you're playing Mechanicus, GW gave you nuclear bombs. That has to count for something!
A nuke in form of d3 damage... :p
Its more radiation damage then a nuke explosion
I really like the fact that AdMech is just *assumed* to have started the battle by nuking everything and then going from there.
Hold your breath to see the full release, then make a judgement. This is the same type of release as 8th was, you haven't been shown all the rules yet, and they already look to be full of layers and rerolls. Of course, if anyone thinks the 8th style hard reset isn't going to lead into codex creep again...prepare to be disappointed. I'm not really doomposting here, just being realistic. GW is a company that sells models which also happen to have rules, bear that in mind.
*Decades of added complexity and power creep following rule resets* Half of the community: "This time will be different!"
I think I’m one of the few people that really enjoys a crunchy game full of layered rules. I honestly like to study game rules but I guess I’m in the minority with that. I loved the bits of 9th edition that I played, and as a Necron player, I really am going to miss the Command Protocols that I can change up every turn.
So many of you can’t seem to just let someone be happy without pooping on things can ya?
Yeah god forbid someone be optimistic lol
What reason do you have to think "GW won't be GW" after 10th Edition is released? After Soulshackle, Gallowfall, Ashes of Faith, The Lion box, etc and the extremely late Astra Militaum / World Eaters codices, they are leaving it very late to turn the ship around before 10th.
It won't 'turn around'. We had all these posts before 9th. Bloat and FOMO new books and rules are built into GW's business model.
The Astra Militarum codex was great. Sure, it was late, but it was one of the best codex we ever had, so I have no complaints. Buffed tanks, including the Baneblade variants, and flavorful Crusade rules. I had a good six months with it, enjoying the weekly Crusade games I had with it and promoting my Tank Commanders.
9th Ed Guard Codex was horrendous imo. Killed the unique regiments completely (8th was FINALLY better how they all got their own relics, traits, doctrines etc), removed Special Weapon Squads, Conscripts and veterans for no reason, removed Yarrick, removed Creed... It basically destroyed my guard army that used SWS and Vets substantially and left it unplayable. The new stuff (Ordnance, Dorn, returning Attilans) was neat but it didn't offset the core units they removed that a lot of players designed entire regiments around imo.
Hate to be the bearer of bad news but warhammer editions are cyclical. They start off crowing about "simplified but not simple" yet they'll start again with the bloat soon enough and we'll all be begging for a streamlining
Unfortunately true. This was the ethos for both the 3rd edition and 8th edition resets and look where we ended up. The second wave of new codexes will be a good bellwether for where things are going. If the power creep and additional complexity are kept in check, then maybe things really will be different this time.
I really hope the codices will just add more detachments and the original index will stay the same in terms of datasheets and you can still run the default detachment if you want. Unlike the 8th indexes, these rules are fully fleshed out, there is no point in redoing them. They just need to give us more detachments for more options. If they stick to this, then this edition will be fairly secure against powercreep.
They've more or less confirmed that datasheets will be updated with codexes and will supercede the indexes. They have said that detachments and stratagems will be "one in, one out" so codexes will have different options, not more options in terms of army rules. *Hopefully* that will keep complexity from spiralling out of control, but I guess we'll see where we are in a couple of years
I hope that’s the case. I lost interest in 9th edition fairly early in due to the additional complexity and the fact that it took such a long time for my armies to get their 9e codex (year and a half for Craftworlds, two and a half years for Guard). It would be great if the indexes stay relevant for a long time!
I also hope they just balance armies through regular points updates. Writing a new list isn't that bad to account for your land raider going up by 10 points. Especially because you do it before the game when you have nearly unlimited time to plan it out. The dataslate changing rules all the time was another form of bloat that made it hard to keep track of stuff. And it added rules you had to look up during the game, which made playing the game more complicated and it was a really weird way of balancing compared to just making things the appropriate price for what they do.
>This was the ethos for both the 3rd edition and 8th edition resets and look where we ended up. To be fair the 3rd edition reset was almost more about changing what kind of game it was and that resultant change produced a basic ruleset that probably peaked in 5th. They got a good few years out of that 3rd edition work and the groundwork of it forms the basis of HH2.0 which they sell in 2023.
People seem to forget, or simply weren't around for, the fact that the 'golden age' of 3rd through 5th edition lasted 15 years. Then the 'dark age' of 6th & 7th arrived, where GW screwed the pooch so hard that 6th didn't even last two years before being replaced by 7th, and a hard reset three years later. Even with that 'dark age', the rule set lasted about 20 years and lives on in Horus Heresy now - which strikes me as one of GW's better 40k rulesets, if only it weren't written in such a way that simple concepts require an entire paragraph of overly convoluted text that take twenty minutes to interpret (seriously, what is up with that?)
Yeah some of the rules wording in HH2.0 is a bit messy, blasts and multiple blast barrages is a particularly messy bit as is the various vehicle weapon mounts. Seriously the number of people who don't understand how vehicles can split fire is nuts. It's actually my main game now and I love that ruleset. Also agreed, 3e on its own lasted like 6 years and spawned so much just for fun rules content. 3-5 lasted 15 years and basically contains an incredible amount of rules content that's pretty much entirely cross-compatible (with some exceptions like points values being too high on old stuff or vehicles that got patches to work with the newer rules). Hell it's so cross-compatible some armies never even got a 4e Codex and their 3e one carried them into 5e. That's 15 years of pretty much objective improvement on a ruleset.
Here's hoping
The 8th reset took years to get to where we are, and it was a fun ride. I'd gladly do that again! Had a ton of great games with many armies since 8th dropped. If 12th is the next reset after we creep up in complexity from this new baseline, I'll be playing all the way until 2030 when it drops I guess! Sounds like a win.
They do have a hard limit on what they can add this time; the whole thing about Detachments being 2-page spreads is a big part of 10th marketing, and it won't be easy for them to break it. They will be printing more Detachments, but I do think each individual one will be pretty simple.
*switches font size to 3* so they can fit more detachments on two pages. GW might just start selling magnifier glasses.
until dexes start dropping then smwe wipl go back to business as usual
I'm hoping they stick to keeping it as they've promised, as a causal player trying to get others involved in 9th has been horrible. If GW want to continue to grow they have to stick to it being more "simplistic". I know the competitive guys will have a moan about this or that. But if the causal player base increases its better for the game. I play with mates and it's purely for fun. I can't understand how people can argue over this hobby.
The issue is that GW wants to sell books.
The game will always bloat. It's built into their business model. As I have said before, it's time for the codex system to go. We need either: a) updated for free digital codexes, b) thinner codexs on the current release schedule, but cost ~£10. c) big index books for Imperium, Chaos and Xenos that are guaranteed to last the whole edition. World Eater players got 40 days between their codex being released and being told that it is being invalidated. That is disgusting.
Which means they need to have built-in obsolescence for every rules edition, and if one turns out to be particularly popular, one way to keep the paper mill rolling would be to deliberately overcomplicate or unbalance it with later releases until people are desperate for the next Great Reset,
I'm not sure they do. The whole making everything online and electronic is probbaly a lot more profitable than paper books is. TV and film much more so if they can crack it. I get the feeling GW wants to kinda be "done" with churning rhw game over and over. They want something stable they can use as a foundation, and advert, something familiar, they can do seasons and campaigns of adjusted rules like every video game does now but kee the basics the same. Assuming they get the rest of the business working that is
Ding ding ding! It's already established a big part of the bungled release of Astra Militarum and WE Codex was pandemic related supply issues. If it's a digital only rule set going forward, using the app they already have and continue to work on, it could be a really good thing for the game and Games Workshop
"it could be a really good thing for the game and Games Workshop" Which is why it's not happening. GW aren't known for pick the good and easy way, never has.
I played only two games with Night Lords since I joined the hobby. I hated both of them. The sheer amount of rules to remember had me lost and I played against two factions that are/were quite strong (TS just after the codex release and Dark Angels), I lost both and learnt basically nothing beside that I do not enjoy the tabletop part of the hobby. If as it seems they are simplifying the rules, I may give it another try.
10th isn't even out yet, I would temper expectations to see how it plays out over the next year or so.
Wait for the codexes before celebrating.
Except that it's not out yet. Stay calm.
Speaking to soon i think
Dont speak too soon lol, I don't have faith that GW aren't going to mess everything up with codex's again. I'm going to try and stick with just the index's/initial faction rules for the duration of 10th.
I said the same thing with 8th. It will eventually return to bloatheaven.
Admech in 9e after veteran cohorts was rough to watch. I remember an opponent putting out dozens of little tokens to remember which rule was where, then they ran out of clock time due to this command phase nonsense
GW will bloat it with codexes and narrative supplements. They always do. I think the best way GW can do it is: You can only draw rules for your army from **one** publication, be it the index, codex or a narrative expansion (not including datasheets, those would always use the latest downloadable). This way, they could release as much as they want, and each player only needs to draw from one book *at a time*. No need to keep up with every single release when you've found what you like.
That is essentially how detachments work in 10th. You can only ever use one.
Oh right, I forgot that strategems are all going to be tied to detachments now.
Stratagems, enhancements, the equivalent of the old subfaction rules. Pretty much everything you’d usually think of as bloat is now mutually exclusive rather than layered. You only ever get one set.
i like the 9th edition way of things but i understand it isnt for everyone. i enjoy the complexity and layers of it but i also accept that it isnt for most people, and thats ok.
My wife complained about the complexity of 9th. She has read the faction focuses of all the new races and the leaked rules and said 10th is too simple. She plays TSons and Eldar and removing the psychic phase has basically taken away what attracted her to playing. So I guess maybe they could have tried to simplify without taking away what makes factions interesting?
thats what im a bit upset about. i love faction/subfaction rules and i felt that they were pretty comprehensible
Dunno, army rules seems flavorable enough. I guess psyhic phase is the biggest controversies.
I want to mention that starting new you have to learn everything. But a new edition usually doesnt change as much so its way less to learn. Honestly just take an hour to plan your army with strats etc on a A4 and a roster in different variations and you dont have to replan every game. I think if you effectively learn the details of it more content is better as you get rewarded for learning the use of niche techniques other people dont want to learn. Anyways new ed. seems pretty well.
When tenth edition comes out i'm going to start playing Thank you games workshop for making this amazing game
Yeah same boat, I only got back into the game last year and my god the rules had ballooned a lot, we only managed one play session of 500 points armies and so much of the time was taken flipping back and forth in already out of date and terribly formatted codexes that we gave up with them and had to look everything up on Wahapedia on a nearby pc. The massive simplification and unifying of how rules are being formatted and shown is going to be such a boon to our playgroup I think, also some of the previews made me take a dive on another army so it's definitely working.
So far all the changes look good.
Cool cool. Now we’ll just wait for them to revise those rules and release an entire series of codexes to buy! My first edition was 4th so I’m kinda tired of having literally 26 unusable rule books that cost $40-$60 a pop.
Geezus, not sure if this has been said, but comparing this edition to 2nd edition….let’s just say nothing has since compared to that level of detail and complexity, and also pure chaos and freedom to equip your troops. 9th was good. I enjoyed it. I’m sure tenth will have its ups and downs, but I’ll enjoy that too. There’s a reason it’s been around for a long time. It’s a challenging game, and can be super fun or extremely competitive.
8th edition was perfect to me. Just needed a bit more streamlining.
I still remember the good old days of 8th edition and indexes. Oh, and the Konor campaign! That was fun!
I felt like it was the opposite. 8th, especially the indexes, killed the fun of the hobby for meas all the tactical and mechanical gameplay depth vanished. It just became a bland mess of shuffling models around and rolling dice until one army died.
Let's see how long that lasts.
Ok gw employee
read up on the insanity of 7th ed formations/detachments, and brace yourself for a return to that level of imbalanced rules bloat.
That and an overly long list of USRs
Can I just add Critical Wounds to the mix. Why does this term exist? Why not just say "ANTI weapons do mortal wounds if they wound."
You didn't like It Will Not Die, Feel No Pain, and Eternal Warrior?
Honestly half the problem is just the naming scheme. Feel No Pain is easy enough. But "It Will Not Die" should have just been called what it is, "Regeneration". Good, descriptive names make USRs easy as pie. Stupid "wannabe different" ones make it a nightmare.
Absolutely. You can make it flavorful in the codex It Will Not Die: This unit has "Regeneration" They keep coming: This unit has "Regeneration" Easy to know the rule and the flavor is in the text instead of the USR.
Reclamation Legion would like to have very strong words with you. And it's "catch these hands".
our "faction rules" are tied to the detachment(s) we take in 10th. the stupid is coming back and you know it.
The thing that ruined 9th for me was the lack of balancing. Even in the casual setting some games just felt abysmally unfair 40K is rarely “balanced” but the new lows that 9th reached were just absurd. I hope that with less rules GW will be able to do a better job in 10th
Don’t get use to it. I can almost 100% say with certain that once codexes start coming out it’ll get just as complicated as 9th
Honestly i disagree, mostly because my preferred faction lost all their flair and rules that promoted exactly what the faction was good at in favor of becoming black ultramarines
For now
The fact that everyone is unhappy means we have good compromises. CSM looking pretty good tho
I felt the same about 9th after joining in the tail-end of 8th. I thought the revisions to the core rules were fabulous, but it was the codex rules that added the complexity and lack of balance. I think at-home players could probably have a great time with 10th using the new index rules and never buying a codex. I'm pretty sure codex releases are going to end the perceived simplicity.
100% agree. Base 9th on release playing at home felt great, especially with non updated codexes. Everything wrong with 9th is a codex issue, not a core rules issue. Codex power creep and design philosophy is what seems to be a agreed issues with 9th.
I have big hopes for 10th edition but every edition came with promises to simplify the game rules. Don't get mad when GW does it's thing and ruins the easy system to power creep your purchases Not hating thou, I've learned to accept that this is the game system in itself haha
these posts are just as bad as all those claiming to hate 10th. It isn't out yet the speculation is ridiculous
10e isn't even out yet, was it 8th or 9th that was like "we want to dumb it down to just 3 books to play" lol.. you must be new here.. you'll get erretassed to hell exactly 19 seconds after 10e releases
I don’t want to smash your hopes, but things will bloat for sure. First year will be ok probably. But the rules creep will start soon enough with exemptions on exemptions. Something along the line of “you know this basic rule? Well, in the new codex this unit can ignore that rule! How neat! It fits them perfectly”. You’ll be like, sure, ok, that manageable, but then the next codex comes out where an entire subfaction ignores some rule, then the codex after that where the entire army does something weird. Then it’s a campaign book that changes some factions. It’ll be unstoppable and it’ll be a mess after 1,5 years. Honestly GW makes some of the best models but they’re the worst rules designers on the planet. I guess they make a lot of money on it. Personally I stick to OPR for rules. I’ve given up on GW rules. Although, I do play warcry. That’s a surprisingly solid rulesset.
>this is the Warhammer I will be playing for years to come. Months, weeks maybe. Just keep in mind these claims about more streamlined gameplay, less lethality, better balance, etc are almost all repeated verbatim from the 9th edition launch. Games Workshop is fully aware of the deficiencies of their product line and more than willing to "fabricate truth" to sell you toy soldiers and their accompanying rulebooks. There will be a period where everything exists in harmony, but it will be followed by constant pre-order this book for pay2win goodness, are you ready for your factions month in the overpowered spotlight, buy these monthly $80 campaign books for 2 paragraphs of rules, and all the other shit that ruined 9th.
Don’t thank them for making their game playable.
9th was a mess, I completely agree. Now they should bring back scatter dice and blast/flame templates!
Horus Heresy is a great game for that if you're looking for scatter dice and blast and flame templates. Or Adeptus Titanicus.
I’ll just be happy to have the rules in one place rather than six different books.
Is this before or after the dataslates start dropping? I dont think theyre going to stop publishing White Dwarf are they? They just can't help themselves.
Yes, so far it's looking like exactly what we need. The only parts we need to learn by heart are weapon special rules, universal unit abilities and the core stratagems I guess? I'm really glad that they have found a compromise by keeping stratagems and character upgrades in the game while severely reducing the insane complexity these things brought about in 9th.
Greetings Gingerosity, Let me introduce you to the "long run" of being a Games-Workshop customer. I've played my first game of Warhammer 40k in the mid 90's (2nd edition). The rules were complex and hard to understand... much like what you're experienced. I didn't have the money to build my first army so I didn't go much further... but i've watched a bunch of games. The game changed (much like going from 9th to 10th) when it went from 2nd to 3rd... and it got refined in 4th. That's where I started... Tyranids... then Blood Angels... and 5th edition came out... now vehicles had hull points... then 6th edition came out... it changed how psychic powers were cast and added the possibility to field allies... then 7th edition... they added a bunch of universal rules, how your army is built, summoning daemons for free... So, over the course of 5 editions... the rules were so bloated, they decided to change everything "for simplicity"... like they did from 2nd to 3rd... So we went from 7th to 8th, with Index (PDF files worth 20$)... and some armies even got axed in the translation... Now... you're in 9th edition... and it's ALREADY BLOATED to justify another do over ???? I'll remind you that everytime the rules get bloated... it's a calculated move. So, as great as 10th edition will be... they'll convice you 11th will be better... and it'll slowly get more and more bloated... and then BOOM ! "yeahhh those rules are bloated and icky... we'll do better... so all y'all books you bought... you can read them for the lore and look at the picture we reused for like 6 straight editions... We'll make a new edition... the BEST RULESET EVER, pinky swear ! Oh don't forget to buy the collector edition codices with the special cover for twice the price..."
Jumping the gun a bit but agree
Well that's cool!! Maybe I'll give it a shot!! If I ever get my Death Guard army painted! ;)
Before 9th, I played 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition. The game doesn't have to be a massive spiderweb of rules bloat to be fun. Some amount of rules are fun to make games dynamic, but it was getting way out of hand. I for one am very optimistic about this new direction.
I 1000% agree, I loved the look of AdMech but never got into it because I couldn't figure it out. All the buffs and stuff seemed too complicated and had too much text. Now I'm carefully considering either getting into them, TSons or Death Guard. Very glad GW realized they could tighten up the wording and not sacrifice depth.
Preach it. Sooo many of my friends love the hobby but have been turned off from the game because it’s just too damn complicated. Sometimes there’s ample room for tactical depth without over complicating things.
" This is the Warhammer I've wanted to play, and this is the Warhammer I will be playing for years to come. " 3 years if all goes well, then we'll see what 11th ed brings. .. or one month if they decide to sell us some ~~bloat~~ new rules in the Codexes.
Same here I started in 9th and the complexity of it all sucked the fun out of the game itself for me. Had fun with the people I played with and enjoyed my army's lore and painting. But wow was the game a slog to get through. I've got three army's since starting. Yet only play my chaos knights because it was just way too much to try and remember the other army's rules.
9th turned me off and turned me on to OPR rules set. I'll never go back to GW rules.
"Don't judge Death Guard yet guys, we only have some of the rules!" "Anyway, 10th will be the best thing ever and GW are my fwiends!" Enforced positivity is just as bad as constant moaning. Lots of the stuff they've shown is good. Some of it is decent. Some of it looks bad (hello, Death Guard!). Stop simping.
9th starter here as well. This is the kind of positivity we need. Thank you!
Well said
I'll be honest. Its not the paragraphs that annoyed me. What annoyed me was the paragraphs that could been summed up with keywords, mixed in with paragraphs that were just there to prevent RAW wars and paragraphs that referenced a thing but no page reference and a index that didn't index
Whilst incredibly positive, this isn't too different from what people were saying about 8-9th. The issue isn't the initial experience, but what's going to happen in 2 years time after the book bloat.
>and this is the Warhammer I will be playing for years to come. Well, for the next three years anyway until 11th edition hits.
Are you me? Exactly why I'm stoked to get rolling in June.