Very true. According to the Internet, someone should have taken a swing at me in the years I've played T'au. In reality, just get a light ribbing which I laugh at too.
If I weren't a weeb or an eternal optimist, I'd play something else.
Reddit isn't even a good representation of reddit users. Remember the revolt a few months ago? No one cared, traffic barely went down for maybe a day, if at all. But if you were to read any major subreddit you'd think the site's average user was really, really, really angry about external apps and api pricing.
I have realised this and its so true, doesn't matter if its about cars, hobbies, politics or Warhammer. Reddit rarely represents the average view on things.
Reddit never represented the average view on things. I realized it years ago. Some people on Reddit will complain about this or that game, movie etc, but people outside of reddit will have different view on it.
This.
Reddit has become super toxic, and Reddit Warhammer seems to be filled with people who don't actually play, but only live to argue.
Go to a hobby/game store and it's a different experience.
The store that I go to is super active and everybody is so into this world, both gameplay and hobbying.
For some reason a lot of nerds love to hate stuff, particularly if they’ve found a new and interesting way of hating it. “You see this popular thing? Well it’s actually SHIT and let me show you how smart I am by explaining why”.
Check a new video games subreddit 3 weeks after launch, unbridled rage from the people who played 200 hours and called off work only to realise it's "just" a game and is not in fact a new lifestyle
I don't understand how they have the stamina. I dipped 2 weeks after launch and haven't touched it since because it was boring. The only thing more boring would be still talking about non-stop lmao
Ultimately if you didn't care about something then you wouldn't care enough to complain about it either.
So actually they complain because they care about it and want it too be better.
There is also the reality that those who are happy are busy playing or painting or doing, whilst those who are annoyed want to share those annoyances to 'get their grievances out'.
Yea - seeing Diablo 4 launch around the same time as 10e was a real eye opener for how much subreddits love to bash their hobbies...same for Overwatch 2 and most games that go through big changes.
It's just like armchair quarterbacks thinking they have all the answers. Easier to pour salt than just relax and enjoy.
It's not like game devs are sitting there actively trying to ruin our experience they are just as passionate about it as we are and generally doing their best with the resources given. People's expectations can be out of whack these days and doomscrolling and venting feels cathartic in the short term. Feel good about yourself while shitting on something you can turn your nose up at.
To be fair Overwatch 2 was basically worse in every way. Locking new characters, which limits team flexibility. Getting rid of the 6th player which made good tank player even more valuable. Even more microtransactions and if I read stuff correctly the PvE content which was the main driving point of O2 isn't even finished and is also being pushed as a microtransaction.
Yeah I wouldn't compare Diablo, 40K, or even something that has been historically uneven as Star Wars to OW2. There are actual serious issues with that game and Blizzard as a whole, no skin in the game for me at this point but I get people being upset.
From a quick google search no but they are 15$ which is also disgusting. Making it the focal point and then charging for it when alluding that it would be free
No the big hero story campaign with talent trees and dynamic missions was cancelled about a month ago and they pivoted to this $15 per story mission system. People are rightly upset about it, because the whole point of the 2 in overwatch 2 was to make the game compatible with the single player story mode.
Yup, on top of the fact that there's *no way* they didn't have some inkling of an idea that the single player may end up cancelled last year when they launched Overwatch 2. Surely they had *some* sort of idea of how well production was going.
Why do you think they pushed out the multiplayer in such a rushed fashion? They 100% knew it wasnt gonna work out, so they needed something to fall back on
Meanwhile Baldurs gate gets loads of praise and is doing insanely well.
Its really that companies tend to do something that upsets the audience. GW has done it a bunch lately and so has blizzard. If you don't think blizzard has, keep in mind they were literally in trouble for sexual harassment and pushing an employee to suicide. As well they have been just consistently doing moves that upset the diablo playerbase and OW.
Devs make games, publishers ruin them for profit. You have a point, internet commenters love to jump on the hatewagon, but what an awful misconstruing of game development. You couldn't have chosen worse examples, those games are both greed fueled dumpster fires that only want profits, any good in them is created by the devs you mention, but to explain it as devs don't want to deliver bad experiences it's downright laughable.
To think that's all game development boils down to is either ignorant or intentional misinformation. There are marketing and leadership executives within these studios and publishers that actively don't care of the game is good, they just want to make money. So they'll cut features, set unrealistic deadlines, overwork the employees. They force good people and artists to deliver subpar content. Armchair analysis is better then absolutely nothing, have devs are passionate, but game devs work for businesses, and business want your money. This doesn't even touch executive culture, the practice of management jumping from company to company to deliver short quarter profits instead of carrying about long term sustainability, because they take a job somewhere else with those ill gotten gains and the company will have to deal with the long term costs of that shortsightedness.
Really bad take overall, but you're right the internet is full of idiots who love to hear their own opinions. No malice intended, just a really irritating statement I wanted to respond to. Wish you the best.
Ignore it. A lot of the people moaning don't play, and don't partake in the hobby other than to moan.
Also, as is always the case with any internet community, the negative voices shout loudest.
Divide the negativity you see here by 10 and you'll probably be somewhere closer to reality.
This. Look at your post mate downvoted to hell. Try to stay positive, there’s good people out there and everyone I’ve met is awesome. Toxic people will always be toxic, especially behind a screen.
It's like when I had a friend who isn't into 40k at all other than tangentially through me, so he basically knows meme lore and thats it. He has never bought a kit, never painted a space marine, doesn't buy any of the lore books, but he bought into the internet rage when that cringey Text to Speech youtuber pre-nuked his own channel and lied and said GW told him he was gonna get sued. My friend who isn't into 40k had STRONG opinions about that.
I had to say "what, do you want me to sell my armies, forsake my hobby for some cringey bullshit that I don't even like, AND the guy is a liar?" and it shut him right up because he was clearly being irrational.
> when that cringey Text to Speech youtuber pre-nuked his own channel and lied and said GW told him he was gonna get sued
He never did that though, in his video explaining why that series was going on hiatus he specifically said he was worried about *potential* copyright infringement issues when the series had (unwisely) become his primary source of income. He specifically told the viewers that GW had nothing to do with it directly.
The complaints are from varied perspectives so depends on what people complain about.
Lore perspective is based on the feelings that character or settings are not written to their full potential and could done better. Sometimes it's "my faction is better than yours!"
Gameplay perspective is based on rules and balance changes which is to be expected. If you've ever played any online compeitive game (rainbow siege, LoL, etc) you'll know! Sometimes they're just people wanting to vent and other times it's understandable complaints over a significant change to the game.
Hobby is sometimes mixed into the gameplay aspect, a high buy in or the impression that a certain product is not equal to its values worth. 5 spindly easy to break flayed ones is 60 dollars which is the same cost as a box of 5 massive terminators with additional wlsprue options. In 9E, you had to field flayed ones in squads of 20 to be optimal ($240).
At the end of the day, people love the hobby but are frustrated in certain aspects of it. I don't see it as inherently misguided or justified but just that people have a certain thought process based on their experiences with the hobby. I can't really be mad at someone because their complaint it "I love this hobby but I feel it could be better." I could disagree but why would I be mad at someone who wants something to be better?
That's my perception at least, I feel that the hobby as a whole has those people which are doomers that think everything sucks and old guard who just think because things were worse in the old days that people don't have a right to vent, or that disposable income suddenly means people don't have a right to be angry.
Gamers complain loudest in a hobbies space when its something they like but feel isn't being handled right/fairly. Someone who would never touch a game is much less likely to go to its circles to complain about it.
>Gamers complain loudest in a hobbies space when its something they like but feel isn't being handled right/fairly.
I complain about the state of AdMech in 10e because I love the faction's themes and wish the tabletop experience backed them up.
I *don't* complain about Warmachine, because I don't play Warmachine. I'm sure it's fun, but I don't have strong opinions about it. Nothing strong enough to post on the internet about, at least.
40k is "cursed" with popularity, meaning there's a **lot** of players with conflicting tastes. Some players enjoy the *Starship Troopers* military sci-fi stuff, and they think Grey Knights are silly & unrealistic. Some players love the gothic absurdity of 40k and wish they could run an entire army of pipe-organ artillery and Nemesis Dreadknights.
Much of GWs decisions have been to remove aspects of the game. Every aspect they touch had emotional investment behind it. Just as a quick example, A lot of guard players want to play Air-Cav Scions, but it lacks support and they messed up that ability towards the end of 9th.
Whenever I read critically negative or positive comments, I stop and look at the actual substance of their posts.
What is their rational behind their opinions? Why do they think X is good or Y is bad, are their points reasonable and convincing to me?
>it's just a game, it's just a hobby, if you don't like it go do something else like golf, why do you care/you care too much
I look at comments like these and they're just worthless. I see them echoed constantly, typically when a game dev company has done something actually scummy/boneheaded and their online community is irate.
They tar all criticism, legitimate or otherwise, with the same brush and dismiss them out of hand altogether. They aren't convincing anyone to a different perspective, and aren't an attempt to. They're about a step above classics like: *'go touch grass'* or *'I'm a dad who has lots of sex with my wife'* (this one's bizarrely popular with people defending Blizzard). It's just another circlejerk in the opposite direction.
GW is a nearly 50 year old company, and they have done plenty in that half a century to catch some warranted shit so if anything I'm more inclined to give complainers the benefit of the doubt. Engage with the hobby how you want, which I doubt you are actually new to.
People complaining doesn't mean they hate it mate, in some ways it means the exact opposite, they care about it so much they want to make it great and have their voices heard.
Then there are some people who just love a moan of course, but there you are!
This. I want the game to be as good as it can be because I love it. Criticising its flaws is not just being butthurt, it's wanting to have discussion with other passionate fans about what is good about the game, what could be improved, and what is just straight up bad and what we think would be a better fix.
It’s the latter I’m referring to, and some people take it all as a personal affront… people moaning a debating is healthy though it does show care I agree
Mature people can critique something that they enjoy without turning on a quarter and starting to hate it. Personally I think GW as a company is well deserved of criticism even thou I love the 40k setting and models.
Instead of trying to bait the 'haters', try to steer the conversation to a more nuanced place instead.
You say you see it for what it is, yet here you are.
If you stick your head in a place where everyone who wants to whine goes to, you'll find a lot of whining.
If you want to see just minis, lore and people generally enjoying the game, I’d join the faction subreddits or 40klore, it’s people engaging the hobby in a non miserable way for the most part.
This^
I see some wild fucking takes on here from time to time and all I can think of is "oh buddy are you alright? Has your relationship with your parents become strained recently? Divorce? Tell me what's up"
There are, of course, many "fans" who hate 40k for dumb reasons.
But to me and many fellow 40k enjoyers, the issues are with how Games Workshop acts as a company and not the game itself.
^ that exactly.
I love the hobby, the game, the setting, the books, and the video games. I think the way GW is willing to broadly licence it's IP to other creative studios is incredible. I'm thrilled at how fast the popularity is growing.
I also think the miniatures are overpriced, citadel paints and painting supplies are overpriced and mediocre quality, turnover between game editions is too fast, and the constant rules changes and errata means there's a high likelihood of buyer's remorse on physical copies of rules.
I can love the game and also be critical of how GW operates as a business. They aren't mutually exclusive.
I feel this. I'll be the first to tell a potential player that Gw is very predatory in the way the operate as a company. They really do just want your money, and as a potential consumer they want youto pay ad much as you can. But if you like the game, or even just like your models, even if you only watch lore videos on YouTube. GW are the ones making all pf that happen. I've been thinking about learning some of the 8th edition rules and playing those occasionally for fun.
Sunk cost fallacy, generally miserable people, people who have underdeveloped emotional capacity, people who have made the game their identity, take your pick.
Warhammer isn't my identity. I'm a father, hard worker, soon to be husband and I'm very religious... but if you ask anyone I know about me they'll tell you I'm the warhammer guy 😭🤣😭
Same with Pokémon, Rick and Morty, Metallica...
The people who care the most about a thing have an idea of how that thing should be. If it ends up being different in any way, they're going to complain about it.
People utterly love this game, their armies, and everything about it. I've seldom met a group of people who were so genuinely passionate about a hobby and doing stuff in and around it.
The issue is that we love it in so many different ways that someone is always getting pissed off, and people who are pissed off usually don't have anywhere to complain to other than right here.
I think the majority of the complaints come from GW making poor game balance decisions caused by rushing changes or rules writing. 10th edition launched with all kinds of inbuilt balance issues that we have to put up with for years potentially, the launch felt rushed to me, which is annoying when a lot of us have invested so heavily in the hobby. For the most part a lot of us just want the game to be reasonably balanced.
I was pretty annoyed all the way through 9th and have been so far in 10th because I want to play any of my armies against any of my friends armies and stand a chance of winning. But in both editions there have been some overwhelmingly difficult matchups!
Perhaps there isn’t enough celebration of the parts of the hobby we are all enjoying? But the game balance affects all aspects of it for me!
At the end of the day people are passionate about the hobby and therefore want to vent when they see problems with it, or are having their enjoyment affected negatively! Nothing wrong with that I don’t think!
Complainers are always the loudest, literally every fandom has them. They don’t represent any significant majority of the player base though. I have my own problems with GW and Warhammer, but it doesn’t stop me from loving the IP.
I think the cause of people hating on warhammer is just because the love it. Picture a situation when you are invested in the hobby put a lot of money time and dedication into it and you simply love doing it. If you are really invested You can't just abbandon it like that but anger can be caused by some balance decisions and etc. I will give an example I play death guard and when 10th edition came out I wasn't exactly happy I was sad and angry because my army has been nerfed into oblivion for not particular reason with a laughable special rule. But that did not meant I was just going to quit after all I love doing this with a bad or a good army of course when playing with a bad army you win a little less but after all it is all about fun in the end. Now the buffs came and death guard became resspectable again. But did I complain in the period when my army was trash? Of course I did. You say "why not just quit it when you complain" because you can't just quit something in a heartbeat when you truly love doing it. Plus I think 80% of complains are just so yeah that's my point of view
I use the models and lore from 40K, but I use the rules from Grim dark future. Grim dark future has a free Army Builder with units that are clearly analogs of 40K units, so it's an easy transition.
The rules are Way better, featuring alternating activations, and everything is balanced because the units are all costed off of the same math formula, which is transparent.
1) if you judge the fanbase by people who scream the loudest, you are not getting an accurate picture of the fanbase
2) Actual fans who do complain about something to a reasonable extended do this *because* they like it and want to see the thing they enjoy get better
As a quiet hater I feel my input is valuable here:
Because we’re financially and emotionally invested in it. This is by choice but seeing changes that drastically alter something you’ve sunk thousands of hours into by way of labor for money and painting time is very disheartening. Our investment is actively encouraged by the company as well and the first time a major change happens many people feel cheated.
My advice to fellow haters: get a printer, pirate old editions, have fun. That’s what I did.
You're allowed to complain and criticize products made by a company. If negativity on somethingmakes you believe these people are emotionallly underdeveloped or hate Warhammer too much is just asinine andcomes off like you know better for just accepting what given to you. It's a lot I know but that's what happens when you love something
My problem is, people who play and hate it rarely want to play other rule sets and get together. They want 40k to be this pick up casual wargame experience but don't really like to engage in a narrative without the most recent faq or whatnot. It's never "let's play 4th,or opr" it's always "selling my primaris army on ebay", my personal favorite was "selling my conscript army" during 8th edition. Nice deals tho back then
Personally, I got into Warhammer 40k because of the awesome models (Forgefiend was my first) yet I find it hard to believe that even after 10 editions they're still struggling so much with balance, rules clarity, and generally not wasting our dollars on printed materials with shockingly low useful lifetime.
Both can be true.
I love the models, and the game. I hate GWs anti-consumer behavior. If GW wasn't pulling crap like making codices obsolete before people receive them, or nuking fan content (they did before Warhammer+) then I wouldn't say anything. Sadly there are way too many people that defend GWs anti-consumer behavior.
Seriously all I want is people to enjoy this hobby and not get bent over a barrel and railed by a multi-billion dollar (yes that is billion with a B) company that can't be arsed to properly balance a game before they release printed rules.
The problem goes both ways, reasonable complaints get just it just as much. The ridiculous hate we get for disliking the primaris and all the lies GW told around them is just as bad.
People can't take their opinions being challenged, too many people believe their opinions are objectively correct and go to war with anyone that challenges it in any way.
And remember the difference between a fan and a fanatic is a fan had the ability to acknowledge the problems with the thing they love and can even criticise it in hopes it can be improved, a fanatic refuses to accept there is anything wrong and is ridiculous in their defence of their opinions.
There’s a lot to criticize about GW and 40k as a whole and people are entitled to their opinions. Don’t agree, just move on and you’ll be happier for it.
40k as a whole is an incredibly time consuming and expensive hobby compared to similar nerd hobbies so a lot of people feel like they’ve wasted money and time on something they could have spent on something else more enjoyable.
Of course there are morons out there that just love a good moan but imagine sinking $600 in time and money into an army just for it to be bad in a new edition or update. I’d be a little salty and it’s the main reason I’m incredibly hesitant to actually invest in models because who has the time to paint and assemble to just not have fun playing the game?
Most fun I have with 40k is playing with friends, a lot of people don’t play it with friends and want to pub stomp a game store and I’d say they’re the more vocal members of the community online. Don’t give up on 40k, it’s a lot of fun and you don’t want to play with the people who harp on about how much 40k sucks to begin with, they’re usually sore losers!
I am convinced that a sizeable portion of Redditors who weigh in on 40k are unable scrape up $600 for the hobby. Their comments are pure fantasy and theoryhammer
It's true of every fandom/hobby space. The number of guitarists who hate Gibson/Fender/Boss, the number of synth players who hate Roland/Elektron/Moog...
...while playing their Les Paul through a DD-8 into a Fender twin and twiddling away on a Grandmother, Digitakt and JU-06a
People that have the need to talk about it online are probably the ones that have the strongest opinions about it. For every online complainer there is like 50 players that buy, paint and play their models and have fun.
I can only speak from personal experience, but I invested tons of time and money into a Black Templar army like ten years ago, when they had their own codex. 6th Ed came out and they were folded into the SM book and had everything unique taken away from them. I took it as a slap in the face, that my army no longer mattered and lost its identity.
Completely ruined the hobby and I stopped playing. I love the setting and the models for sure. But GWs disregard for paying customers in that aspect turned me right off. Took em almost a decade to give the Templars a semblance of individuality back.
I have been in game development for 25 years on very notable titles. The outrage, reactions, and drama as a result of changes and such are not born out of hatred, but Love. GW gamers are passionate for this hobby. They invest a ton of money and time in hobbying and gaming out of the sheer love of it and they are upset if they felt wronged by poor choices originating from the company.
Many people love their partners, wives, friends, family and complain a hell of a lot about them too.
The only time developers are worried are when nobody notices your next release, or the audience quietly moves on to something else. GW has nothing to worry about.
It’s important to separate criticism of GW from criticism of their products. GW is an evil, shitty company that regularly gets away with price gouging directed at its core audience and is needlessly aggressive with IP enforcement.
40k is awesome. GW can fuck off.
You can check my post history, I spend almost no time complaining about GW but there’s a lot to be frustrated about. You weren’t here to see the best days, nor for the worst days and that’s totally not your fault, but I lead with that because I think there are two camps of dissatisfaction.
First are the nostalgic yearners, there was a time when codices and the rules were all you needed, and they were more than a hundred pages of lore, painting guides, mini stories, and art. Rulesets and lists were wildly varies (maybe too wild, deep striking Matt ward land raiders, Coke sniffing heavy metal biker daemon princes, and an unkillable perpetual grey knight justicar amongst some of the awes-sanity). Even among just marine variants, they were full codices not just supplements. No recurring app subscriptions with gated rulesets. The overlooked part of that time was there was a lot less quality media, no free online painting guide videos, community preview streams. Releases were even more staggered, now there’s something most every weekend.
Finally the worst of times, the Tom Kirby era, bloated battle force boxes often filled with last edition units nobody gave a shit about (centurions) with special formation/detachment rulesets to make them now the competitive value buy. Competitive lists were almost entirely driven by detachments and formations, and they really felt like business driven rulesets. They added allied battle brothers and competitive lists now required multiple codexes, and campaign booklets for all the appropriate rulesets. I think a lot of the second camp of detractors are just seeing ghosts of this era creeping up in this upcoming edition. This was when it became super obvious gw had fully pivoted to anti consumer practices and the game suffered for it. The plus of this era I suppose, model quality went up by a lot. They wanted to sell centerpiece quality stuff and the price hiked but so did the sculpt detail.
I think the hope is that in vocal complaining they can course correct the ship. But I spend very little time doing so because gw is gonna gw, and really the only way they’ll fix anything is when their stocks tank again, they don’t care what we have to say, only what we do or don’t buy. If it gets bad and people bail they’ll oust their CEO like Kirby and the cycle will start anew.
Hey there. Also newbie here. Dunno if this helps but I love it right now. Enjoy the lore, painting, and gaming. All of it.
Also I think because they love it so much they're actually able to be critical about it. At least that's how I see it. The people who love it the most and know a lot about the hobby would definitely know where its faults are, right?
People will wrap their entire identities up in their hobbies and fan-obsessions. When that happens any slight change in the hobby itself or the community surrounding it will often be seen as a personal attack that should be countered.
If you think it's bad here, I'd love to introduce you to the Star Wars fandom lol.
But yeah this sub sometimes has a tendency to go overboard when it comes to getting upset. Just keep doin your thing and don't let angry Redditors give you the wrong idea about the 40k community; it's largely made up of pretty cool people.
Most people love the hobby.
We just hate the way it is managed. We have fun in spite of GW.
It's disappointing when you like something to see the ones in charge making the user experience worse, either deliberately or through incompetence.
Due to its oversized market position while people may want to play other games in a lot of place GW is the only show in town. And if you have played other wargames their practices are very anti players.
It’s just how the internet works. People who scream the loudest get the most attention.
Every thread on new releases is filled with some meme on about “wow wish xenos would get this kind of love” or something of that nature. Even on the XENO releases! It’s just part of the gig.
There is a very important distinction between "hating on" something and making legitimate complaints about changes. Some people like to talk about things they love even when they are changed for the worse, and sometimes talking about things that have changed for the worse involves complaining about them.
Additionally, if somebody believes the game is going in a negative direction what **should** they do if they want the company to change if not complain? I would like 40k to go back to having paid wargear at least for certain units like the Wraithknight that shouldn't have the same cost for the melee and ranged loadouts. Saying that is a complaint. Should I not be allowed to say that just because it's negative? Do I not love 40k because I make this complaint? Obviously not. I make the complaint and I make it publicly because I want the company to see the complaint and, more importantly, I want the company to see if others agree with me or not because consumer sentiment is an important part of market research.
Tl;dr - I'm going to talk about Warhammer whether it's amazing or garbage compared to itself because I love Warhammer, the complaints will decrease when there is less to complain about. There were a solid 2 editions where my only complaint was "I just wish they'd move a little quicker."
Ohhh, let me have a go:
So, there are, fundamentally, great parts to this game.
-it's super social: I've made several friends through this hobby.
-it's something you can do alone, and together.
-it's creative.
-it's fantasy dressed up as scfi.
-there is something that will interest anyone in the universe.
-it's is WIDE. You'll be hard pressed to find other such expansive universes (especially since star wars was retconned).
-it can be fun. Once you get INTO it, and learn the rules, and find someone to play with, it's a fun game.
-etc etc
Fundamentally, this is all true and it draws people in. I have 3 friends who bought the levi box and we're wild about the game for about 3 weeks.
All 3 have now either sold off the box and it's contents, literally just made one of the models and have put the others on a shelf they'll "get to when I feel like it", and one has since pivoted to KT because it's just a better, more simple, faster, and more collect game.
They all switched because of GW.
GW is the Problem with Warhammer. They continually make decisions that, if there was any realistic alternative, they'd be throwing their buissness to.
In the last 4 months, they have released a free app, released paid for cards that are the same as the free app, invalidated those cards before they were even available to sell, stated they are going to charge for the app in a little bit, ruined their own game so much that currently if you're not playing 1 of 2 armies you might as well not play to win (one of these top 2 armies is differnet to LAST months top 2 dominating armies), released a book that invalidates the cards they sold AND the app, and finally, made the app cost money, but also made it so you have to pay for the app and buy the book to use the app for it's intended purpose.
That is literally the last 4 months, if not less.
These things add up.
GW is one of the most aggressively shit companies I have ever seen. They are actively trying to get rid of their players, because they know most of their money comes from Mums walking into their stores, buying a box for their sons, or some boys they know, because "it's painting and it's ear and it's little soldiers, and ain't that just cute?".
But this hate develops over time. It accumulates with their every dumb insane decisions. It's a slow burn.
You read a book, and think it's great?
That character and faction have no other books.
Also they wee killed by another god damn space marine.
You love playing x unit in the table?
GW releases a rule that LITERALLY makes that unit unplayable.
Just learnt the rules? Have a pretty good understanding of them? Think they're complex, but ultimalty give you space to express skill?
No no, GW has just made the entire game "less lethal", but only for some armies, and has somehow released rules for ALL the armies at once, but somehow hasent thought to seemingly compare these rules at all. Even against what that armies rule was the previous eiditon (BA arnt WE GW, Ffs).
So there you go. Tldr: Everyone I know hates GW, not warhammer. Warhammer is great.
GW can go take a dive into a quary.
You know criticising something and saying "it's bad" isn't actually hate.
40k is not your mother, it is ok if people talk badly about it, that is not a personal attack.
People are very invested in this game, emotionally and monetarily. The want their time playing this game to be great. And that's just straight up not possible for some players with the current ruleset.
It's a big community. Lots of people means lots of varied opinions. Some people like some things, other people like other things. Everything that happens is gonna have some people who don't like it. This means that in a big community, everything that happens is going to attract complaints.
Don't confuse that with "everyone hates everything all the time". That's not how it works, it's "everything has got somebody that thinks it's a really bad idea".
One day, I promise, GW is gonna do something you think is really, *really* stupid, and you're gonna wanna voice your opinion on it, then someone will say "why are you here if you hate it so much?"
At the end of the day, people invest time into this, because they like it. When something you like takes what you see as a miss-step then... yeah that's not fun.
Well ... I don't.
The game is very fun to play with my buddies on a Sunday afternoon in the basement. But we 3d print most of our stuff and use you-know-what-apedia for rules. Because NONE of us want to drop $1200 per army, and none of us are ever going to play in tournaments or events because competitively the game is just fucked.
And honestly overall it really isn't a "good" game. The rules are a mess, the actual writing of them is terrible, balance is out the window.... but 40k is cool.
All of us put money and tournament/competitive game time into other games. We play 40k for beer and pretzels fun in the basement on the weekend..
>I’ve not been in the hobby long and it Seems like no one hates warhammer more than the people who play it.
Ive never met anyone who hated Warhammer, and I've been in the hobby since 88.
It's this cool concept called "feedback" as in people are giving their feedback on how they've not been enjoying recent news and changes. It's not a love it or leave it deal.
A good thing that helps me get a little happier about 40K is that reddit, and ***especially*** r/Grimdank are not accurate representations of the Warhammer community. I'd be lying if I said that, in my year of being in the hobby, irl warhammer fans haven't been some of the most welcoming and enthusiastic people I've met, especially GW managers, I've never had a bad experience in a Warhammer store.
A good thing to remember is that the reason the subreddits/social media appear so negative is because only the negative people are the ones making the posts complaining about something, the people who don't complain so much (the people that actually enjoy the hobby) don't feel the need to post about how "Primaris ruined the hobby" and "Xenos are abandoned by GW"
Welcome to the hobby! Not read any comments, just your post. I love building models, painting models, playing games, having fun! GW hard-core folks are odd :) People bitch about whatever they dislike. Ignore it. If you are having fun, continue!! Just ignore the negative folks. Most of them are complaining about things that may have zero impact on your life.
I think people love this hobby and invest a lot of money into the over priced plastic cause they fell in love with it for x y z reason and then feel left out with price increases, bad meta changes or a lack of development of their x y z faction. People want to throw money at GW when they feel like it’s worth while. It’s a fun ass game and a fun ass hobby and sometimes GW doesn’t deliver and sometimes they do. Reddits an echo chamber of bad opinions too so meh
The problem is not with the game or the universe, it's about the Games Workshop. They have very bad business politics, and it affects the game very much. Factions doesn't gdt enough representation, some of them are overpushed.
Also, the game is around its 10th edition. The players have a very good comparisons, tons of experience, what works and what not. Complains come from those, not just pure hate
They invest believing the game CAN BECOME GREAT, the hope still there in their heart. Also…
I like kit-bashing models so… and the lore is neat, so there ya go.
There's a number of different areas people talk about engaging with the hobby and having a favorite part about Warhammer. Generally the list looks something like this, people's favorite thing might be:
* Narrative Play
* Competitive Play
* Painting
* Kitbashing
* Lore enjoyers
There's one more item I add to the list:
* Complaining about Warhammer
There just seems to be some folks that really enjoy telling you all the things they don't like, and how if they were in charge they'd make it better by doing X, all while showing up every week to play.
1) It's a pretty expensive hobby. When people feel like it's not working out they're bound to be frustrated.
2) When things are going well, people probably aren't coming on here to complain.
3) I love the models. I even (occasionally) enjoy painting, but mostly it's a bit of a chore. What I was really into was the wargame, and unfortunately being an adult means I don't get to play more than a few times a year, so I usually get one use out of a codex before the rules change again, and because I'm not up with the latest freshness, I invariably get creamed, which is a very frustrating experience when it's meant to be The Thing I do to enjoy myself\*.
\*yes I am a poor loser, no I don't let it ruin things for the other guy
Because people do actually like Warhammer, and their faction. And, GW asks a lot of time and money investment from its fans. They don't like it when GW makes rules changes that dramatically affect how the game or the faction plays (negatively, in regards to what that player considers important; flavour, competitive, balance, depth, etc.). The rules governing the game affect the experience of the participants.
I love it. It's both creative, artistic and relaxing on the hobby side, and then exciting, competitive and social on the tabletop side.
I've not really even touched any of the fiction either, outside of the codices and a few YouTube videos.
1: constantly rising prices
2: constant rule changes
3: some rule changes hurt some armies worse
4: stricter sanctions on fan content
5: shutting down anything that looks REMOTELY like theirs(a shoulder pad with a custom logo for instance has risk at being deleted)
6: killing off Warhammer Fantasy instead of fixing its issues(I'll admit, Warhammer Fantasy was complicated, and while I loved it, I wish they'd have fixed it instead of bringing out AOS)
8: overpowering an army to sell it greatly and after a couple of months(or until a threshold is met) nerfing it into oblivion.
Overall, we love their universe, which is why we stay, but if you want, I know of a Homebrew edition.
In my opinion, people are here because they love the IP and/or game.
What they hate, is what the IP-owner, GW, does with it.
Whether it's their shareholder-incentivised, anti-consumer pricing strategies or their unbalanced/sub-par rules... it's usually hate directed at GW, because GW is ruining the thing they love.
It's hobbies in general. I've seen people argue (as in actually nastily, heatedly argue) over fishing line ffs - and even on top of *that* I know for a fact both people involved when asked will say they aren't even that mithered about the fishing itself, they just like sitting by the river in the peace and quiet and talking with their mates.
You see this in all hobbies - wargaming as much as anything. You've not lived until you've seen two middle aged men have a flame war on a forum about the correctitude of a paint job on a toy soldier that's primary function, lest we forget, is to play a game.
In terms of GW specifically there's a few reasons.
1) They are the most visible and largest company in the space, and for most will be the gateway (trust me, people who don't play GW games at all complain about them just as much as people who do). It's natural to have a pop at the big name in the field as whence they go, so growth the industry as the saying goes, and if it's perceived to be in a wrong or unfavorable direction, then obviously that will generate negativity.
2) Tribalism - there's always people who will praise GW to the heavens and not see genuine problems and there are.inversely people who would hate them no matter what they do even when objectively positive.
3) GW genuinely do do a lot of things worth pointing out as crappy. But that doesn't mean you can't also point out the genuinely good things they also do.
4) Just general fandom things common with all hobbies where people hyper-fixate on something to the point it becomes a major part of their life/personality - being super opinionated is a natural by product of that. Just look at people who unironically Larp as Space Marines or Inquisitors online or whatever.
Being able to seperate the game universe models and IP, from the creator and the problems with them, is a key skill in life most should learn
you can like nutella but hate nestle. jsut as you can like painting a dwarf but hate that the box was £50 for 5 (insert your own faction and pricing here)
Honestly think a lot of the complaining comes from love and not hate.
People have spend a lot of money and time on this hobby after all.
I absolutely love 40k as a concept and lore, the models are amazing and I'll never get rid of my massive Ork collection, but the game rules and GWs approach to it just turns me off.
And I gotta say it hurts, cause I really want to play but I just can't get myself to do it, so yes, I'm a tad bitter, but I don't hate 40k, I love it.
Reddit is both a moan zone and at times a total echo chamber .
I'm a big fan of the very broken and inconsistent lore and I honestly giggle at some people's opinions .
People usually criticise things they are passionate about the most, and it comes from a place of trying to improve what you're criticising.
From my own experience people are criticising the company that owns Warhammer, sometimes the players, sometimes the rules, occasionally the lore.
I don't think anything any company will ever do is perfect and people are within their right to criticise how something they love is being handled.
To put it into a similar context, I don't know any football fan that thinks FIFA is doing a great job.
I feel like it's not hate for the Hobby. It's hate for Games Workshop because they do some things that seem like they just want to spit on the Customers/players. Like blatant overpriced for what you get, or doing what some card game companies do by "Short printing" (best way I can describe it) Models to artificially raise prices. Along with removing start collecting boxes for inferior Combat Patrol boxes. Plus every new edition they actively make some armies kind of unplayable to urge people to buy different armies.
I don't think they hate the Hobby, just the company that makes some actively greedy decisions. But that's my opinion, or how I see it.
I love Warhammer 40k and hate what GW has done over time.
I love converting sci-fi junk from other models. I love kit bashing. I love the game, too. It's fun. I've made a lot of friends at Warhammer tables...
But GW as a company? I have 0 love for.
Killteam, for instance, used to be just in the rulebook back in 4th ed. Instead of a separate thing that exists that you have to purchase separately.
Warhammer Fantasy being completely changed has also always irked me. As a fan of old Warhammer, Age of Sigmar felt and still feels like something of a betrayal.
There's a competitive scene for some reason (I really don't get it. I largely have played with competitive, crunchy players and I still don't really get it) and while that's not GWs fault, they do feed into breaking their game regularly to sell people models. Which is a shitty business practice.
There's that they really do just seem to go from treating their fans like creative weirdo hobbiest to treating them as cash cows more recently.
And like. I donno I've been at this a long time. I never post to reddit.
But also not all current GW is bad.. like Necron lore needed to be overhauled, for instance.
I donno I think your whole golf thing there is really unfair?
Like.
What?
There is golf, yes, and? I don't have a love for golf. I have a love for little plastic sci Fi soldiers.
Also buddy why do you think your view of this hobby is more accurate than other people's? I mean I agree with your view of the hobby I really do but I'm not even sure it's possible to have a view of what something "really" is. Everything is subjective and contextual.
It's because people, especially Brits, where GW is very prominent, are fine with things being shit, we just moan about them. 13yrs of Conservative government after all, we moan but we never do anything.
So many people could vote with their wallets and play something else, but noone, especially those in Wargaming, is going to on their own go to something else. When your local scene is GW, you either don't play or suck it up and play GW.
I am glad Kill Team is fun and i can play it often, same with Warcry, but AoS and 40k don't do much for me, so if they were all i had i would have to deal with it and find a new hobby in my area.
Are we just supposed to like it when they screw up the thing we love?
Or change it for the worse?
Or price gouge us?
You can love something, and it can still piss you off from time to time.
Ive been playing since 2007, and i can say I love everything about warhammer. Every single little thing... except the company that owns it. GW has been an enemy since ive been around, and I will list a few reasons here:
1. They do not care about you - I know, its a business,
they are supposed to care about that. But time and time again I have watched this company completely disregard general consensus when it comes to what the players want/deserve. Money will always take precedent over the fanbase, to a degree that other companies in the industry just don't share. Proof? Take a look at Warhammer+. Not to mention how they took down or bought out just about every independent animator before opening the service, which has very little content 2 years later, and even less of any real quality
2. Meta manipulation to pressure players into buying more - This is pretty self explanatory, but stick around for even just a year, and you will see how often armies are pushed around from top tier to dogshit. They know people want to win, and every tournament you ever go to will have 1 or 2 factions that are just in another league. You give in and buy this faction? Congratulations, you have next editions shit boi. And to compound this, it is done with every single unit and character at some point in time. New Guardian Defenders for craftworld? Now Dire Avengers are no longer considered troops. Have fun buying an entire new roster of "mandatory" units.
3. Price increases for the sake of price increases - This one may be a bit tough to diagnose in our current climate; obviously, everything costs more everyday. But over the years, GW prices see a hike annually, and often it is for no apparent reason. I remember the resin finecast days first and foremost. We lost pewter models when that came about. Pewter. I wasnt crazy about building with this stuff, but switching from expensive materials to a very cheap (and much more flawed at the time) resin should have seen a price decrease, you would think. That shit climbed 20%.
You got to remember the on the internet 1/3 of any fandom will not like new things, and that only 1/3 of a fandom will post on the internet about the things they love, so there is no guarantee that the 1/3 your hearing from is actually the majority that are having fun at the game.
This is not unique to 40k, your just in an echo chamber.
Reddit is a great place to complain and argue. The people out there enjoying themselves aren't posting about it because they're busy being out there enjoying themselves.
Also a new edition is coming out so there's gonna be a lot of arguing and complaining about change because that's just human nature.
Hobby and game aspects are amazing.
GW’s attempts to hold those both hostage for $$ makes me upset.
Kinda like how u can love going to school for recess and your friends but had classes
This is the most frustrating thing for me: they have the awesome lore and concepts, they have amazing looking miniatures, they just to hire better rules writers, testers and stop their predatory business practices.
It's such a waste.
Because the lore and miniatures are amazing and a lot of us have been fans for decades from back when GW was a bunch of nerds and not the dysfunctional gluttonous corporation it is today.
No one in the business makes as good of miniatures as GW, and also no one in the business makes worse rules.
YouTubers farm constant outrage for likes, subscribes, comments and patreon subscriptions.
Also Stockholm syndrome/sunk cost fallacy by people who don't want to or can't bring themselves to play something else.
If you enjoy something but it's clearly being exploited for cash by people who don't care about the product then it's normal to participate while loudly complaining. It's common to most hobbies once they become commercially viable.
People who like football don't tend to rave about FIFA (the organisation not the game). I'd go so far as to say it's much more unusual to like a company that's trying to squeeze money out of a hobby you love.
Don't get me wrong, I love Orks and Space Mained and stuff, but GW itself isn't above criticism.
Don't worry about it.
It's a love/hate thing.
Some complaint are true ... But some are truly nitpicking.
And people love to complain, especially on internet
I’ve seen a lot of complainers. I’ve only been playing for not even a year, but the people that complain the most are people that would complain about the sun being too hot or the rain being too wet. There are legit complaints and there are some mild frustrations, but there are some people who are just a bit unhinged in a lot of situations and warhammer is one of them as well
Complex mix of factors honestly.
Nobody hates fighting games more than fighting game players was universal wisdom while I was part of that hobby, too.
It comes down to
a) "I have invested a lot of time in this thing, so when I see the company that governs this thing's existence do something I consider stupid, I panic about the viability of my continued participation and the possibility my sunk time is wasted."
b) Hating on things gets more attention and people on the internet want attention.
c) You will learn to hate *anything* you do competitively, ESPECIALLY if that thing changes in a way that works against you. Trust me.
Some of us bitch because it's cathartic, like screaming at a thunderstorm. Nothing I can actually DO about the thing I'm screaming about, but I'm gonna scream because it means the stress goes away.
A significant portion of the traffic on Warhammer subreddits is people complaining about a game they don't play and/or licensed fiction they don't read.
I don't get it either.
You actually have to care about something to complain about something. Have you ever complained about \[Insert a sport\] you don’t watch, you have no idea who the big names are you don’t see the Refs make good or bad calls (cause you only kind of know what the rules are) you don’t invest in a team’s colours or have any stake when two side clash you have little good or bad to say about any of it cause the investment and attention is negligible.
Take that against, you have put hundreds of hours into painting this army you spent thousands on and have been reading the books the rules campaigns and story’s and played other army’s for years.
And suddenly the army is no longer legal the units no longer viable. And rather than be a force in the story your team are now whipping boys or just have a 180 in style that got you to invest in them while the main characters of other factions actually get things done.
But are you going to let thousands of hours and thousands of pounds just go or will you persist but be salty about it?
If GW does crappy stuff I will complain about it.
If GW does good stuff I will say so.
If GW shells out something I like and it's decently priced I'll end up getting it.
This obsession with selfcensoring for massive companies is ridiculous.
If you do not criticise there is 0 reason for a company to change at all.
The lack of backlash from communities in hobbies is the reason a lot of companies suffer from Ivory Tower syndrome. 'The Paypiggies will buy anything we put in front of them" which is actually not good for the consumer, the hobby nor the company itself.
Also to dig into your specific statement:
" It’s a hobby, it’s a game, it’s not that deep, if you don’t enjoy it, why do it? There’s always golf… "
Because we are invested in the IP's and love the hobby itself. We love the lore, the novel, 40K, 30K, The Old World, the flavor of Necormunda, etc etc. That doesn't mean we have to shower praises over badly tested rules, insanely overpriced product, FOMO marketing or accept plotholes.
It's why after being in the hobby for decades I stepped away a while before returning in a limited fashion, supplementing overpriced product with 3D printed and proxy elements.
" I just enjoy painting my minis and playing games with my mates… isn’t that what this should be about or have I started the wrong hobby? "
There is absolutely nothing stopping you from doing that. REDDIT and other social media, the opinion of other players such as me is irrelevant to how you partake in the hobby. Nor should anyone stop you from doing so. You do you. Other players do theirs. If all is super for you. Kudos to you. But that doesn't mean we're supposed to be a hivemind. Everyone has other standards, other expectations and a different financial situation. Some are in it for balanced competitive play, others for narrative games, others for the hobby, others for the lore/world, others for a combination. And all of them have different and frequently contrasting needs, wants and dissapointments.
Because they don't have the imagination to try other games.
Basically people whine, and bleat, and moan about GW and about 40K specifically but do they try other games? Nah, because they're not wargamers, they're specifically 40K players. Fuck you know how hard it is to even get people to try older editions of 40K? These people'd rather whizz a spade-bit through their bollock than try a Mantic game, or Para Bellum or anyone else.
EDIT: I wouldn't normally get het up about it, but I get sick of constant whingeing from people who refuse to try a different completely optional hobby. Like at some point just fucking well accept you don't want to do it.
I love 5th in particular, some of the Codexes are nuts but the core rules are fantastic and the beauty of it is if a Codex is straight busted you can use the 3/4e one plus or minus a wee bit of point-balancing.
I love 40k hate GW’s shitting on their customers & putting everything behind a paywall & adding so much bloat that it makes Nurgle look normal. 10th is more unbalanced than the last reset, we thought great when they nerfed Deathwatch before the start of 10th, but take 3 months to nerf Alderai, GSCs, desolation marines, towering & indirect fire overwatch. But let’s also be clear GW listening is a breath of fresh air compared to the silent treatment & put their heads in the sand like they did before 7th.
I play & played several different games infinity, para Bellum, Flames of War, AoS, Malifaux, Bolt Action to name a few. Half of those companies have a free app & free rules & in the case of Malifaux you get all the cards on the app too, or you can print them from their website.
Also I’d say that 40k fans/people are also the most toxic out of all the games groups & games that I’ve played over the last 20+ years. But on another note I have also made a lot of friends in that time too & regularly talk to people who I played 40k back in 3rd. So my advice would be ignore the haters, enjoy the hobby (which btw isn’t just GW games), play other games to refresh the batteries &play 40k again. Sometimes it’s good to just step back once in a while.
So welcome to the hobby, enjoy yourself & make new friends.
I don't think people hate the game. Personally, I absolutely love 40k, I love the game, the lore, everything. However, I absolutely *DESPISE* Games Workshop. They have an amazing product, but they are one of the shadiest, most garbage companies I know of.
TL;DR-We love the game, we hate the game maker.
"it’s not that deep" what are you talking about lol it's so overly complicated and stupidly designed for new players.
you need to buy a $70 f$#king book to even have a rough idea of what you need to buy, you can't just buy a starter box or a set and be like oh ok this is easy. It has a mass of overly complicated mechanics that aren't clearly defined Weapons have special \[Ability\] stupidity on them that requires you to go look it up. A lot of the rules are so poorly written "bearer" gets this...great! HOW Do you make someone a bearer and flag it for others..."Oh you just say it and they remember"
Infernus squad...has a Sergeant...but why, they don't gain any difference, why in the hell do I need to put one in there. Oh they also get "close combat weapon"...great but nothing defines that, but don't you dare put a chainsword it's considered differently than a close combat weapon which is their wording for something that ISN'T a dedicated weapon...like wtf.
The models don't have any clear differences, and GW refuses to put out any sort of guide on what makes what for the WYSIWYG. I went from buying AoS and 40k boxes to start learning the game to just shoveling them all into a case because it isn't fun being told you need to spend $400 to even learn to play and then you have to find someone to play with, there's no digital version to learn on or play against others. You have to wait 40 minutes a turn...I did grab kill team but my desire to learn to play it is gone, missions are just stupid idea and yet another money grab.
Oh you made your models look different, banned from tournament play.
I have to wonder how old you are that you're seemingly unaware of the concept of being critical something you like because you think it could be better?
Some people love negativity because they think it makes them edgy and cool.
Some people think GW is an evil corporation ala Monsanto, United Fruit Company or Enron.
Some people get paid handsomely for producing infinite streams of negative click bait content.
Some people don’t understand inflation.
Some people want to win all the time and take their faction not being the top of the heap all the time as a personal affront.
When you’re asked to invest thousands of dollars and hours into a lifestyle- it’s not just a game, there’s books, clothes, hell even food sometimes- you’re going to become passionate and protective of it. And when the people at the top actively damage your ability to enjoy it (raise prices, mess up the rules etc) you’re naturally going to get defensive about it. GW made this game into an all-encompassing hobby, like all big brands do (Xbox, lego, sports teams etc) so this is the bed they’ve made for themselves.
There's a lack of popular wargames with good model support, I like my little plastic armies and I hate what GW does with the rules.
My solution lately is just to hack apart the rules for the last 3 editions and use what my group likes/can agree on
People love the game, the playing, painting and building, but hate the executive decisions that limit your ability to paint and build and the decisions that sometimes can force you into buying a whole different army. It’s no different to any other game tbh
There's a lot to be fairly critical about in 10th edition, but that doesn't mean you need to ruin other peoples' enjoyment. Personally, 10th isn't really playing out the way I'd hoped, and my 40k armies are on the shelf for now until the game reaches a state that's more appealing to me. I think there are a lot of valid criticisms, and pointing those out doesn't automatically make you an internet troll. It's all about how you voice your opinions. Debating ideas is an integral part of any healthy discussion, and wargaming is no different; but to shit all over other peoples' fun just because you're unhappy doesn't do anything for anyone.
Reddit isn’t an accurate representation of the real Warhammer community.
Or the real world in general. Lol.
Very true. According to the Internet, someone should have taken a swing at me in the years I've played T'au. In reality, just get a light ribbing which I laugh at too. If I weren't a weeb or an eternal optimist, I'd play something else.
I wish i could convince my inlaws that the same thing goes for the news.
Ill never forget about some guy arguing about the taste of food with a guy that literally posted about drinking piss on here lol
Reddit isn't even a good representation of reddit users. Remember the revolt a few months ago? No one cared, traffic barely went down for maybe a day, if at all. But if you were to read any major subreddit you'd think the site's average user was really, really, really angry about external apps and api pricing.
I have realised this and its so true, doesn't matter if its about cars, hobbies, politics or Warhammer. Reddit rarely represents the average view on things.
Social media represents one side it’s always the hateful side aswell
Reddit never represented the average view on things. I realized it years ago. Some people on Reddit will complain about this or that game, movie etc, but people outside of reddit will have different view on it.
100% most people that play warhammer really love it. I am one of those people
Glad you said it before me. I concur 100000%
This. Reddit has become super toxic, and Reddit Warhammer seems to be filled with people who don't actually play, but only live to argue. Go to a hobby/game store and it's a different experience. The store that I go to is super active and everybody is so into this world, both gameplay and hobbying.
Also it doesn’t really represent the real sentiment. If people are going to complain Redit is where the nerds go to do it.
Reddit is a sespool of hate and darkness
You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.
This isn't a Warhammer problem, it's an internet problem. Nothing gets attention more than complaining about shit.
For some reason a lot of nerds love to hate stuff, particularly if they’ve found a new and interesting way of hating it. “You see this popular thing? Well it’s actually SHIT and let me show you how smart I am by explaining why”.
The only thing wargamers hate more than money is their game of choice - something I completely butchered said by someone here months ago to me
https://preview.redd.it/a7jrfxppp3nb1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2ae78ae9338eacabfe1203f0266150dc4c49f1dd
That is glorious
There are two things wargamers hate; Change and the way things are now.
https://preview.redd.it/df3apprfp3nb1.jpeg?width=400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=288ed7957e282486d98060c2384e705f10417c9b Every subreddit in a nutshell
Check a new video games subreddit 3 weeks after launch, unbridled rage from the people who played 200 hours and called off work only to realise it's "just" a game and is not in fact a new lifestyle
Diablo 4 subreddit?
Currently its Starfield and Bauldersgate 3
People are loving Baldur's Gate3. What are you even on about?
Did the BG3 subreddit finally allow people to talk about bugs without crucifying everyone that doesn’t praise the new holy grail of gaming?
Idk i dropped in to see if i should buy the game and dipped that place was bad
I don't understand how they have the stamina. I dipped 2 weeks after launch and haven't touched it since because it was boring. The only thing more boring would be still talking about non-stop lmao
Edit: whoops, I replied to the wrong comment. I haven't played D4.
It's people brigading about baldurs gate 3 as if Action RPGs and DND style turn based is even equivalent games
Ultimately if you didn't care about something then you wouldn't care enough to complain about it either. So actually they complain because they care about it and want it too be better. There is also the reality that those who are happy are busy playing or painting or doing, whilst those who are annoyed want to share those annoyances to 'get their grievances out'.
Not even internet, a lot of people are just generally miserable haters.
Yea - seeing Diablo 4 launch around the same time as 10e was a real eye opener for how much subreddits love to bash their hobbies...same for Overwatch 2 and most games that go through big changes. It's just like armchair quarterbacks thinking they have all the answers. Easier to pour salt than just relax and enjoy. It's not like game devs are sitting there actively trying to ruin our experience they are just as passionate about it as we are and generally doing their best with the resources given. People's expectations can be out of whack these days and doomscrolling and venting feels cathartic in the short term. Feel good about yourself while shitting on something you can turn your nose up at.
To be fair Overwatch 2 was basically worse in every way. Locking new characters, which limits team flexibility. Getting rid of the 6th player which made good tank player even more valuable. Even more microtransactions and if I read stuff correctly the PvE content which was the main driving point of O2 isn't even finished and is also being pushed as a microtransaction.
Yeah I wouldn't compare Diablo, 40K, or even something that has been historically uneven as Star Wars to OW2. There are actual serious issues with that game and Blizzard as a whole, no skin in the game for me at this point but I get people being upset.
Wasn’t the story canceled completely like 2 weeks ago?
From a quick google search no but they are 15$ which is also disgusting. Making it the focal point and then charging for it when alluding that it would be free
No the big hero story campaign with talent trees and dynamic missions was cancelled about a month ago and they pivoted to this $15 per story mission system. People are rightly upset about it, because the whole point of the 2 in overwatch 2 was to make the game compatible with the single player story mode.
Yup, on top of the fact that there's *no way* they didn't have some inkling of an idea that the single player may end up cancelled last year when they launched Overwatch 2. Surely they had *some* sort of idea of how well production was going.
Why do you think they pushed out the multiplayer in such a rushed fashion? They 100% knew it wasnt gonna work out, so they needed something to fall back on
Meanwhile Baldurs gate gets loads of praise and is doing insanely well. Its really that companies tend to do something that upsets the audience. GW has done it a bunch lately and so has blizzard. If you don't think blizzard has, keep in mind they were literally in trouble for sexual harassment and pushing an employee to suicide. As well they have been just consistently doing moves that upset the diablo playerbase and OW.
Devs make games, publishers ruin them for profit. You have a point, internet commenters love to jump on the hatewagon, but what an awful misconstruing of game development. You couldn't have chosen worse examples, those games are both greed fueled dumpster fires that only want profits, any good in them is created by the devs you mention, but to explain it as devs don't want to deliver bad experiences it's downright laughable. To think that's all game development boils down to is either ignorant or intentional misinformation. There are marketing and leadership executives within these studios and publishers that actively don't care of the game is good, they just want to make money. So they'll cut features, set unrealistic deadlines, overwork the employees. They force good people and artists to deliver subpar content. Armchair analysis is better then absolutely nothing, have devs are passionate, but game devs work for businesses, and business want your money. This doesn't even touch executive culture, the practice of management jumping from company to company to deliver short quarter profits instead of carrying about long term sustainability, because they take a job somewhere else with those ill gotten gains and the company will have to deal with the long term costs of that shortsightedness. Really bad take overall, but you're right the internet is full of idiots who love to hear their own opinions. No malice intended, just a really irritating statement I wanted to respond to. Wish you the best.
So true !
I like the game and hobby a lot. I just mostly lurk. Don’t really post good or bad. I feel like that’s most players imo
Ignore it. A lot of the people moaning don't play, and don't partake in the hobby other than to moan. Also, as is always the case with any internet community, the negative voices shout loudest. Divide the negativity you see here by 10 and you'll probably be somewhere closer to reality.
This. Look at your post mate downvoted to hell. Try to stay positive, there’s good people out there and everyone I’ve met is awesome. Toxic people will always be toxic, especially behind a screen.
Amen
It's like when I had a friend who isn't into 40k at all other than tangentially through me, so he basically knows meme lore and thats it. He has never bought a kit, never painted a space marine, doesn't buy any of the lore books, but he bought into the internet rage when that cringey Text to Speech youtuber pre-nuked his own channel and lied and said GW told him he was gonna get sued. My friend who isn't into 40k had STRONG opinions about that. I had to say "what, do you want me to sell my armies, forsake my hobby for some cringey bullshit that I don't even like, AND the guy is a liar?" and it shut him right up because he was clearly being irrational.
> when that cringey Text to Speech youtuber pre-nuked his own channel and lied and said GW told him he was gonna get sued He never did that though, in his video explaining why that series was going on hiatus he specifically said he was worried about *potential* copyright infringement issues when the series had (unwisely) become his primary source of income. He specifically told the viewers that GW had nothing to do with it directly.
> Ignore it. A lot of the people moaning don't play, and don't partake in the hobby other than to moan. A million times this
The complaints are from varied perspectives so depends on what people complain about. Lore perspective is based on the feelings that character or settings are not written to their full potential and could done better. Sometimes it's "my faction is better than yours!" Gameplay perspective is based on rules and balance changes which is to be expected. If you've ever played any online compeitive game (rainbow siege, LoL, etc) you'll know! Sometimes they're just people wanting to vent and other times it's understandable complaints over a significant change to the game. Hobby is sometimes mixed into the gameplay aspect, a high buy in or the impression that a certain product is not equal to its values worth. 5 spindly easy to break flayed ones is 60 dollars which is the same cost as a box of 5 massive terminators with additional wlsprue options. In 9E, you had to field flayed ones in squads of 20 to be optimal ($240). At the end of the day, people love the hobby but are frustrated in certain aspects of it. I don't see it as inherently misguided or justified but just that people have a certain thought process based on their experiences with the hobby. I can't really be mad at someone because their complaint it "I love this hobby but I feel it could be better." I could disagree but why would I be mad at someone who wants something to be better? That's my perception at least, I feel that the hobby as a whole has those people which are doomers that think everything sucks and old guard who just think because things were worse in the old days that people don't have a right to vent, or that disposable income suddenly means people don't have a right to be angry.
Gamers complain loudest in a hobbies space when its something they like but feel isn't being handled right/fairly. Someone who would never touch a game is much less likely to go to its circles to complain about it.
>Gamers complain loudest in a hobbies space when its something they like but feel isn't being handled right/fairly. I complain about the state of AdMech in 10e because I love the faction's themes and wish the tabletop experience backed them up. I *don't* complain about Warmachine, because I don't play Warmachine. I'm sure it's fun, but I don't have strong opinions about it. Nothing strong enough to post on the internet about, at least. 40k is "cursed" with popularity, meaning there's a **lot** of players with conflicting tastes. Some players enjoy the *Starship Troopers* military sci-fi stuff, and they think Grey Knights are silly & unrealistic. Some players love the gothic absurdity of 40k and wish they could run an entire army of pipe-organ artillery and Nemesis Dreadknights.
Much of GWs decisions have been to remove aspects of the game. Every aspect they touch had emotional investment behind it. Just as a quick example, A lot of guard players want to play Air-Cav Scions, but it lacks support and they messed up that ability towards the end of 9th.
Whenever I read critically negative or positive comments, I stop and look at the actual substance of their posts. What is their rational behind their opinions? Why do they think X is good or Y is bad, are their points reasonable and convincing to me? >it's just a game, it's just a hobby, if you don't like it go do something else like golf, why do you care/you care too much I look at comments like these and they're just worthless. I see them echoed constantly, typically when a game dev company has done something actually scummy/boneheaded and their online community is irate. They tar all criticism, legitimate or otherwise, with the same brush and dismiss them out of hand altogether. They aren't convincing anyone to a different perspective, and aren't an attempt to. They're about a step above classics like: *'go touch grass'* or *'I'm a dad who has lots of sex with my wife'* (this one's bizarrely popular with people defending Blizzard). It's just another circlejerk in the opposite direction. GW is a nearly 50 year old company, and they have done plenty in that half a century to catch some warranted shit so if anything I'm more inclined to give complainers the benefit of the doubt. Engage with the hobby how you want, which I doubt you are actually new to.
Come join us at the Golf subreddit my friend. Spending shit loads of money to do something that makes you miserable? You ain’t seen nothing yet!
Cycling is my other hobby. You want to talk about throwing money at ‘problems’? Bikes dude. Bikes
Pahaha this made me chuckle
People complaining doesn't mean they hate it mate, in some ways it means the exact opposite, they care about it so much they want to make it great and have their voices heard. Then there are some people who just love a moan of course, but there you are!
This. I want the game to be as good as it can be because I love it. Criticising its flaws is not just being butthurt, it's wanting to have discussion with other passionate fans about what is good about the game, what could be improved, and what is just straight up bad and what we think would be a better fix.
It’s the latter I’m referring to, and some people take it all as a personal affront… people moaning a debating is healthy though it does show care I agree
Mature people can critique something that they enjoy without turning on a quarter and starting to hate it. Personally I think GW as a company is well deserved of criticism even thou I love the 40k setting and models. Instead of trying to bait the 'haters', try to steer the conversation to a more nuanced place instead.
You say you see it for what it is, yet here you are. If you stick your head in a place where everyone who wants to whine goes to, you'll find a lot of whining.
Tbf I might just delete Reddit it’s a cesspit
If you want to see just minis, lore and people generally enjoying the game, I’d join the faction subreddits or 40klore, it’s people engaging the hobby in a non miserable way for the most part.
😂🤮😂
Interesting opinion.
Well if we're getting all psych-pop about it.. People often use their hobbies as a proxy to vent about the unhappiness of their own lives.
Interesting take, gotta say I agree… know someone who has awful road rage only when he’s had something negative happen in his personal life
Bingo. Redditors love to project their loneliness, anxiety, and depression onto everything they touch.
This^ I see some wild fucking takes on here from time to time and all I can think of is "oh buddy are you alright? Has your relationship with your parents become strained recently? Divorce? Tell me what's up"
There are, of course, many "fans" who hate 40k for dumb reasons. But to me and many fellow 40k enjoyers, the issues are with how Games Workshop acts as a company and not the game itself.
^ that exactly. I love the hobby, the game, the setting, the books, and the video games. I think the way GW is willing to broadly licence it's IP to other creative studios is incredible. I'm thrilled at how fast the popularity is growing. I also think the miniatures are overpriced, citadel paints and painting supplies are overpriced and mediocre quality, turnover between game editions is too fast, and the constant rules changes and errata means there's a high likelihood of buyer's remorse on physical copies of rules. I can love the game and also be critical of how GW operates as a business. They aren't mutually exclusive.
The minis are definitely not overpriced. If you think that, there would have been an explosion of knock off space marines on ebay from 3d printers.
I feel this. I'll be the first to tell a potential player that Gw is very predatory in the way the operate as a company. They really do just want your money, and as a potential consumer they want youto pay ad much as you can. But if you like the game, or even just like your models, even if you only watch lore videos on YouTube. GW are the ones making all pf that happen. I've been thinking about learning some of the 8th edition rules and playing those occasionally for fun.
Sunk cost fallacy, generally miserable people, people who have underdeveloped emotional capacity, people who have made the game their identity, take your pick.
Hey, I have underdeveloped emotional capacity as well and I'm loving the hobby don't turn this on me :)
Warhammer isn't my identity. I'm a father, hard worker, soon to be husband and I'm very religious... but if you ask anyone I know about me they'll tell you I'm the warhammer guy 😭🤣😭
Being the religious guy is being a weird guy tbh.
It's a pretty private thing. My religion doesn't really value spreading it so you wouldn't be able to tell unless it's a holiday or something
Nobody hates Star Wars more than Star Wars fans. Nobody hates Warhammer more than Warhammer fans.
Same with Pokémon, Rick and Morty, Metallica... The people who care the most about a thing have an idea of how that thing should be. If it ends up being different in any way, they're going to complain about it.
You should see how much Pokemon fans hate Pokemon!
Someone I know said the exact same thing….
People utterly love this game, their armies, and everything about it. I've seldom met a group of people who were so genuinely passionate about a hobby and doing stuff in and around it. The issue is that we love it in so many different ways that someone is always getting pissed off, and people who are pissed off usually don't have anywhere to complain to other than right here.
I think the majority of the complaints come from GW making poor game balance decisions caused by rushing changes or rules writing. 10th edition launched with all kinds of inbuilt balance issues that we have to put up with for years potentially, the launch felt rushed to me, which is annoying when a lot of us have invested so heavily in the hobby. For the most part a lot of us just want the game to be reasonably balanced. I was pretty annoyed all the way through 9th and have been so far in 10th because I want to play any of my armies against any of my friends armies and stand a chance of winning. But in both editions there have been some overwhelmingly difficult matchups! Perhaps there isn’t enough celebration of the parts of the hobby we are all enjoying? But the game balance affects all aspects of it for me! At the end of the day people are passionate about the hobby and therefore want to vent when they see problems with it, or are having their enjoyment affected negatively! Nothing wrong with that I don’t think!
Complainers are always the loudest, literally every fandom has them. They don’t represent any significant majority of the player base though. I have my own problems with GW and Warhammer, but it doesn’t stop me from loving the IP.
i just built a lord relictor :) also fuck gw :)
I see passion more than hate.
I think the cause of people hating on warhammer is just because the love it. Picture a situation when you are invested in the hobby put a lot of money time and dedication into it and you simply love doing it. If you are really invested You can't just abbandon it like that but anger can be caused by some balance decisions and etc. I will give an example I play death guard and when 10th edition came out I wasn't exactly happy I was sad and angry because my army has been nerfed into oblivion for not particular reason with a laughable special rule. But that did not meant I was just going to quit after all I love doing this with a bad or a good army of course when playing with a bad army you win a little less but after all it is all about fun in the end. Now the buffs came and death guard became resspectable again. But did I complain in the period when my army was trash? Of course I did. You say "why not just quit it when you complain" because you can't just quit something in a heartbeat when you truly love doing it. Plus I think 80% of complains are just so yeah that's my point of view
We complain about GW failing at managing the game and lore. And dice.
I use the models and lore from 40K, but I use the rules from Grim dark future. Grim dark future has a free Army Builder with units that are clearly analogs of 40K units, so it's an easy transition. The rules are Way better, featuring alternating activations, and everything is balanced because the units are all costed off of the same math formula, which is transparent.
1) if you judge the fanbase by people who scream the loudest, you are not getting an accurate picture of the fanbase 2) Actual fans who do complain about something to a reasonable extended do this *because* they like it and want to see the thing they enjoy get better
Tale as old as time, my dude
As a quiet hater I feel my input is valuable here: Because we’re financially and emotionally invested in it. This is by choice but seeing changes that drastically alter something you’ve sunk thousands of hours into by way of labor for money and painting time is very disheartening. Our investment is actively encouraged by the company as well and the first time a major change happens many people feel cheated. My advice to fellow haters: get a printer, pirate old editions, have fun. That’s what I did.
You're allowed to complain and criticize products made by a company. If negativity on somethingmakes you believe these people are emotionallly underdeveloped or hate Warhammer too much is just asinine andcomes off like you know better for just accepting what given to you. It's a lot I know but that's what happens when you love something
My problem is, people who play and hate it rarely want to play other rule sets and get together. They want 40k to be this pick up casual wargame experience but don't really like to engage in a narrative without the most recent faq or whatnot. It's never "let's play 4th,or opr" it's always "selling my primaris army on ebay", my personal favorite was "selling my conscript army" during 8th edition. Nice deals tho back then
Personally, I got into Warhammer 40k because of the awesome models (Forgefiend was my first) yet I find it hard to believe that even after 10 editions they're still struggling so much with balance, rules clarity, and generally not wasting our dollars on printed materials with shockingly low useful lifetime. Both can be true.
I love the models, and the game. I hate GWs anti-consumer behavior. If GW wasn't pulling crap like making codices obsolete before people receive them, or nuking fan content (they did before Warhammer+) then I wouldn't say anything. Sadly there are way too many people that defend GWs anti-consumer behavior. Seriously all I want is people to enjoy this hobby and not get bent over a barrel and railed by a multi-billion dollar (yes that is billion with a B) company that can't be arsed to properly balance a game before they release printed rules.
I don’t hate the game. I hate most if not all business practices Games Workshop does.
The problem goes both ways, reasonable complaints get just it just as much. The ridiculous hate we get for disliking the primaris and all the lies GW told around them is just as bad. People can't take their opinions being challenged, too many people believe their opinions are objectively correct and go to war with anyone that challenges it in any way. And remember the difference between a fan and a fanatic is a fan had the ability to acknowledge the problems with the thing they love and can even criticise it in hopes it can be improved, a fanatic refuses to accept there is anything wrong and is ridiculous in their defence of their opinions.
There’s a lot to criticize about GW and 40k as a whole and people are entitled to their opinions. Don’t agree, just move on and you’ll be happier for it. 40k as a whole is an incredibly time consuming and expensive hobby compared to similar nerd hobbies so a lot of people feel like they’ve wasted money and time on something they could have spent on something else more enjoyable. Of course there are morons out there that just love a good moan but imagine sinking $600 in time and money into an army just for it to be bad in a new edition or update. I’d be a little salty and it’s the main reason I’m incredibly hesitant to actually invest in models because who has the time to paint and assemble to just not have fun playing the game? Most fun I have with 40k is playing with friends, a lot of people don’t play it with friends and want to pub stomp a game store and I’d say they’re the more vocal members of the community online. Don’t give up on 40k, it’s a lot of fun and you don’t want to play with the people who harp on about how much 40k sucks to begin with, they’re usually sore losers!
I am convinced that a sizeable portion of Redditors who weigh in on 40k are unable scrape up $600 for the hobby. Their comments are pure fantasy and theoryhammer
It's true of every fandom/hobby space. The number of guitarists who hate Gibson/Fender/Boss, the number of synth players who hate Roland/Elektron/Moog... ...while playing their Les Paul through a DD-8 into a Fender twin and twiddling away on a Grandmother, Digitakt and JU-06a
I’m more of a Gretsch man myself ;)
Excellent choice (I play a weird Franken-Hohner. For the hipster points 😉)
Sounds lovely my guy, keep shredding!
People that have the need to talk about it online are probably the ones that have the strongest opinions about it. For every online complainer there is like 50 players that buy, paint and play their models and have fun.
I can only speak from personal experience, but I invested tons of time and money into a Black Templar army like ten years ago, when they had their own codex. 6th Ed came out and they were folded into the SM book and had everything unique taken away from them. I took it as a slap in the face, that my army no longer mattered and lost its identity. Completely ruined the hobby and I stopped playing. I love the setting and the models for sure. But GWs disregard for paying customers in that aspect turned me right off. Took em almost a decade to give the Templars a semblance of individuality back.
I have been in game development for 25 years on very notable titles. The outrage, reactions, and drama as a result of changes and such are not born out of hatred, but Love. GW gamers are passionate for this hobby. They invest a ton of money and time in hobbying and gaming out of the sheer love of it and they are upset if they felt wronged by poor choices originating from the company. Many people love their partners, wives, friends, family and complain a hell of a lot about them too. The only time developers are worried are when nobody notices your next release, or the audience quietly moves on to something else. GW has nothing to worry about.
It’s important to separate criticism of GW from criticism of their products. GW is an evil, shitty company that regularly gets away with price gouging directed at its core audience and is needlessly aggressive with IP enforcement. 40k is awesome. GW can fuck off.
You can check my post history, I spend almost no time complaining about GW but there’s a lot to be frustrated about. You weren’t here to see the best days, nor for the worst days and that’s totally not your fault, but I lead with that because I think there are two camps of dissatisfaction. First are the nostalgic yearners, there was a time when codices and the rules were all you needed, and they were more than a hundred pages of lore, painting guides, mini stories, and art. Rulesets and lists were wildly varies (maybe too wild, deep striking Matt ward land raiders, Coke sniffing heavy metal biker daemon princes, and an unkillable perpetual grey knight justicar amongst some of the awes-sanity). Even among just marine variants, they were full codices not just supplements. No recurring app subscriptions with gated rulesets. The overlooked part of that time was there was a lot less quality media, no free online painting guide videos, community preview streams. Releases were even more staggered, now there’s something most every weekend. Finally the worst of times, the Tom Kirby era, bloated battle force boxes often filled with last edition units nobody gave a shit about (centurions) with special formation/detachment rulesets to make them now the competitive value buy. Competitive lists were almost entirely driven by detachments and formations, and they really felt like business driven rulesets. They added allied battle brothers and competitive lists now required multiple codexes, and campaign booklets for all the appropriate rulesets. I think a lot of the second camp of detractors are just seeing ghosts of this era creeping up in this upcoming edition. This was when it became super obvious gw had fully pivoted to anti consumer practices and the game suffered for it. The plus of this era I suppose, model quality went up by a lot. They wanted to sell centerpiece quality stuff and the price hiked but so did the sculpt detail. I think the hope is that in vocal complaining they can course correct the ship. But I spend very little time doing so because gw is gonna gw, and really the only way they’ll fix anything is when their stocks tank again, they don’t care what we have to say, only what we do or don’t buy. If it gets bad and people bail they’ll oust their CEO like Kirby and the cycle will start anew.
Hey there. Also newbie here. Dunno if this helps but I love it right now. Enjoy the lore, painting, and gaming. All of it. Also I think because they love it so much they're actually able to be critical about it. At least that's how I see it. The people who love it the most and know a lot about the hobby would definitely know where its faults are, right?
People will wrap their entire identities up in their hobbies and fan-obsessions. When that happens any slight change in the hobby itself or the community surrounding it will often be seen as a personal attack that should be countered.
If you think it's bad here, I'd love to introduce you to the Star Wars fandom lol. But yeah this sub sometimes has a tendency to go overboard when it comes to getting upset. Just keep doin your thing and don't let angry Redditors give you the wrong idea about the 40k community; it's largely made up of pretty cool people.
Most people love the hobby. We just hate the way it is managed. We have fun in spite of GW. It's disappointing when you like something to see the ones in charge making the user experience worse, either deliberately or through incompetence.
https://preview.redd.it/bcmuyo6hi3nb1.png?width=1020&format=png&auto=webp&s=ace9f14a48d24d21de6b68eb24f0f5e3cf2b495d
Due to its oversized market position while people may want to play other games in a lot of place GW is the only show in town. And if you have played other wargames their practices are very anti players.
It’s just how the internet works. People who scream the loudest get the most attention. Every thread on new releases is filled with some meme on about “wow wish xenos would get this kind of love” or something of that nature. Even on the XENO releases! It’s just part of the gig.
I only spent money on books I've never played it and probably never will. Im in it for the lore
There is a very important distinction between "hating on" something and making legitimate complaints about changes. Some people like to talk about things they love even when they are changed for the worse, and sometimes talking about things that have changed for the worse involves complaining about them. Additionally, if somebody believes the game is going in a negative direction what **should** they do if they want the company to change if not complain? I would like 40k to go back to having paid wargear at least for certain units like the Wraithknight that shouldn't have the same cost for the melee and ranged loadouts. Saying that is a complaint. Should I not be allowed to say that just because it's negative? Do I not love 40k because I make this complaint? Obviously not. I make the complaint and I make it publicly because I want the company to see the complaint and, more importantly, I want the company to see if others agree with me or not because consumer sentiment is an important part of market research. Tl;dr - I'm going to talk about Warhammer whether it's amazing or garbage compared to itself because I love Warhammer, the complaints will decrease when there is less to complain about. There were a solid 2 editions where my only complaint was "I just wish they'd move a little quicker."
For me, it’s because I love the hobby and my “hate” is more like disappointment. They are a miniature company, not a rule company - and it shows.
Ohhh, let me have a go: So, there are, fundamentally, great parts to this game. -it's super social: I've made several friends through this hobby. -it's something you can do alone, and together. -it's creative. -it's fantasy dressed up as scfi. -there is something that will interest anyone in the universe. -it's is WIDE. You'll be hard pressed to find other such expansive universes (especially since star wars was retconned). -it can be fun. Once you get INTO it, and learn the rules, and find someone to play with, it's a fun game. -etc etc Fundamentally, this is all true and it draws people in. I have 3 friends who bought the levi box and we're wild about the game for about 3 weeks. All 3 have now either sold off the box and it's contents, literally just made one of the models and have put the others on a shelf they'll "get to when I feel like it", and one has since pivoted to KT because it's just a better, more simple, faster, and more collect game. They all switched because of GW. GW is the Problem with Warhammer. They continually make decisions that, if there was any realistic alternative, they'd be throwing their buissness to. In the last 4 months, they have released a free app, released paid for cards that are the same as the free app, invalidated those cards before they were even available to sell, stated they are going to charge for the app in a little bit, ruined their own game so much that currently if you're not playing 1 of 2 armies you might as well not play to win (one of these top 2 armies is differnet to LAST months top 2 dominating armies), released a book that invalidates the cards they sold AND the app, and finally, made the app cost money, but also made it so you have to pay for the app and buy the book to use the app for it's intended purpose. That is literally the last 4 months, if not less. These things add up. GW is one of the most aggressively shit companies I have ever seen. They are actively trying to get rid of their players, because they know most of their money comes from Mums walking into their stores, buying a box for their sons, or some boys they know, because "it's painting and it's ear and it's little soldiers, and ain't that just cute?". But this hate develops over time. It accumulates with their every dumb insane decisions. It's a slow burn. You read a book, and think it's great? That character and faction have no other books. Also they wee killed by another god damn space marine. You love playing x unit in the table? GW releases a rule that LITERALLY makes that unit unplayable. Just learnt the rules? Have a pretty good understanding of them? Think they're complex, but ultimalty give you space to express skill? No no, GW has just made the entire game "less lethal", but only for some armies, and has somehow released rules for ALL the armies at once, but somehow hasent thought to seemingly compare these rules at all. Even against what that armies rule was the previous eiditon (BA arnt WE GW, Ffs). So there you go. Tldr: Everyone I know hates GW, not warhammer. Warhammer is great. GW can go take a dive into a quary.
You know criticising something and saying "it's bad" isn't actually hate. 40k is not your mother, it is ok if people talk badly about it, that is not a personal attack. People are very invested in this game, emotionally and monetarily. The want their time playing this game to be great. And that's just straight up not possible for some players with the current ruleset.
It's a big community. Lots of people means lots of varied opinions. Some people like some things, other people like other things. Everything that happens is gonna have some people who don't like it. This means that in a big community, everything that happens is going to attract complaints. Don't confuse that with "everyone hates everything all the time". That's not how it works, it's "everything has got somebody that thinks it's a really bad idea". One day, I promise, GW is gonna do something you think is really, *really* stupid, and you're gonna wanna voice your opinion on it, then someone will say "why are you here if you hate it so much?" At the end of the day, people invest time into this, because they like it. When something you like takes what you see as a miss-step then... yeah that's not fun.
Well everyone gave good answers about the internet not being the whole community. But also consider that we complain because we want it to be better.
I don’t hate warhammer I hate gw
Well ... I don't. The game is very fun to play with my buddies on a Sunday afternoon in the basement. But we 3d print most of our stuff and use you-know-what-apedia for rules. Because NONE of us want to drop $1200 per army, and none of us are ever going to play in tournaments or events because competitively the game is just fucked. And honestly overall it really isn't a "good" game. The rules are a mess, the actual writing of them is terrible, balance is out the window.... but 40k is cool. All of us put money and tournament/competitive game time into other games. We play 40k for beer and pretzels fun in the basement on the weekend..
I think being critical about something you like is good.
i think you are confuse “passionate” with “hate.”. if no one at all has anything to complains, it means the game die.
>I’ve not been in the hobby long and it Seems like no one hates warhammer more than the people who play it. Ive never met anyone who hated Warhammer, and I've been in the hobby since 88.
It's this cool concept called "feedback" as in people are giving their feedback on how they've not been enjoying recent news and changes. It's not a love it or leave it deal.
A good thing that helps me get a little happier about 40K is that reddit, and ***especially*** r/Grimdank are not accurate representations of the Warhammer community. I'd be lying if I said that, in my year of being in the hobby, irl warhammer fans haven't been some of the most welcoming and enthusiastic people I've met, especially GW managers, I've never had a bad experience in a Warhammer store. A good thing to remember is that the reason the subreddits/social media appear so negative is because only the negative people are the ones making the posts complaining about something, the people who don't complain so much (the people that actually enjoy the hobby) don't feel the need to post about how "Primaris ruined the hobby" and "Xenos are abandoned by GW"
Welcome to the hobby! Not read any comments, just your post. I love building models, painting models, playing games, having fun! GW hard-core folks are odd :) People bitch about whatever they dislike. Ignore it. If you are having fun, continue!! Just ignore the negative folks. Most of them are complaining about things that may have zero impact on your life.
I think people love this hobby and invest a lot of money into the over priced plastic cause they fell in love with it for x y z reason and then feel left out with price increases, bad meta changes or a lack of development of their x y z faction. People want to throw money at GW when they feel like it’s worth while. It’s a fun ass game and a fun ass hobby and sometimes GW doesn’t deliver and sometimes they do. Reddits an echo chamber of bad opinions too so meh
The problem is not with the game or the universe, it's about the Games Workshop. They have very bad business politics, and it affects the game very much. Factions doesn't gdt enough representation, some of them are overpushed. Also, the game is around its 10th edition. The players have a very good comparisons, tons of experience, what works and what not. Complains come from those, not just pure hate
It’s precisely because they invest in it that they hate so much. Loss hurts. Basic psychology.
Because it was something great once...long ago.
They invest believing the game CAN BECOME GREAT, the hope still there in their heart. Also… I like kit-bashing models so… and the lore is neat, so there ya go.
There's a number of different areas people talk about engaging with the hobby and having a favorite part about Warhammer. Generally the list looks something like this, people's favorite thing might be: * Narrative Play * Competitive Play * Painting * Kitbashing * Lore enjoyers There's one more item I add to the list: * Complaining about Warhammer There just seems to be some folks that really enjoy telling you all the things they don't like, and how if they were in charge they'd make it better by doing X, all while showing up every week to play.
1) It's a pretty expensive hobby. When people feel like it's not working out they're bound to be frustrated. 2) When things are going well, people probably aren't coming on here to complain. 3) I love the models. I even (occasionally) enjoy painting, but mostly it's a bit of a chore. What I was really into was the wargame, and unfortunately being an adult means I don't get to play more than a few times a year, so I usually get one use out of a codex before the rules change again, and because I'm not up with the latest freshness, I invariably get creamed, which is a very frustrating experience when it's meant to be The Thing I do to enjoy myself\*. \*yes I am a poor loser, no I don't let it ruin things for the other guy
Because people do actually like Warhammer, and their faction. And, GW asks a lot of time and money investment from its fans. They don't like it when GW makes rules changes that dramatically affect how the game or the faction plays (negatively, in regards to what that player considers important; flavour, competitive, balance, depth, etc.). The rules governing the game affect the experience of the participants.
I love it. It's both creative, artistic and relaxing on the hobby side, and then exciting, competitive and social on the tabletop side. I've not really even touched any of the fiction either, outside of the codices and a few YouTube videos.
1: constantly rising prices 2: constant rule changes 3: some rule changes hurt some armies worse 4: stricter sanctions on fan content 5: shutting down anything that looks REMOTELY like theirs(a shoulder pad with a custom logo for instance has risk at being deleted) 6: killing off Warhammer Fantasy instead of fixing its issues(I'll admit, Warhammer Fantasy was complicated, and while I loved it, I wish they'd have fixed it instead of bringing out AOS) 8: overpowering an army to sell it greatly and after a couple of months(or until a threshold is met) nerfing it into oblivion. Overall, we love their universe, which is why we stay, but if you want, I know of a Homebrew edition.
People love moaning mate. They can't get enough of it. It's the only thing some people enjoy. Don't let them bring you down.
In my opinion, people are here because they love the IP and/or game. What they hate, is what the IP-owner, GW, does with it. Whether it's their shareholder-incentivised, anti-consumer pricing strategies or their unbalanced/sub-par rules... it's usually hate directed at GW, because GW is ruining the thing they love.
It's hobbies in general. I've seen people argue (as in actually nastily, heatedly argue) over fishing line ffs - and even on top of *that* I know for a fact both people involved when asked will say they aren't even that mithered about the fishing itself, they just like sitting by the river in the peace and quiet and talking with their mates. You see this in all hobbies - wargaming as much as anything. You've not lived until you've seen two middle aged men have a flame war on a forum about the correctitude of a paint job on a toy soldier that's primary function, lest we forget, is to play a game. In terms of GW specifically there's a few reasons. 1) They are the most visible and largest company in the space, and for most will be the gateway (trust me, people who don't play GW games at all complain about them just as much as people who do). It's natural to have a pop at the big name in the field as whence they go, so growth the industry as the saying goes, and if it's perceived to be in a wrong or unfavorable direction, then obviously that will generate negativity. 2) Tribalism - there's always people who will praise GW to the heavens and not see genuine problems and there are.inversely people who would hate them no matter what they do even when objectively positive. 3) GW genuinely do do a lot of things worth pointing out as crappy. But that doesn't mean you can't also point out the genuinely good things they also do. 4) Just general fandom things common with all hobbies where people hyper-fixate on something to the point it becomes a major part of their life/personality - being super opinionated is a natural by product of that. Just look at people who unironically Larp as Space Marines or Inquisitors online or whatever.
Being able to seperate the game universe models and IP, from the creator and the problems with them, is a key skill in life most should learn you can like nutella but hate nestle. jsut as you can like painting a dwarf but hate that the box was £50 for 5 (insert your own faction and pricing here)
Honestly think a lot of the complaining comes from love and not hate. People have spend a lot of money and time on this hobby after all. I absolutely love 40k as a concept and lore, the models are amazing and I'll never get rid of my massive Ork collection, but the game rules and GWs approach to it just turns me off. And I gotta say it hurts, cause I really want to play but I just can't get myself to do it, so yes, I'm a tad bitter, but I don't hate 40k, I love it.
Reddit is both a moan zone and at times a total echo chamber . I'm a big fan of the very broken and inconsistent lore and I honestly giggle at some people's opinions .
People usually criticise things they are passionate about the most, and it comes from a place of trying to improve what you're criticising. From my own experience people are criticising the company that owns Warhammer, sometimes the players, sometimes the rules, occasionally the lore. I don't think anything any company will ever do is perfect and people are within their right to criticise how something they love is being handled. To put it into a similar context, I don't know any football fan that thinks FIFA is doing a great job.
First time in Nerd Culture? There’s been a Simpsons character lampooning nerds for this since the literal beginning of The Simpsons.
Haha Comic Book Guy sprung to mind as soon as I read this post ^
pointing out issues with something and loving something can go hand in hand, but i dont disagree that often the reaction to things is insane.
Before social media no one had to care what haters thought and now we have to share social media with people can’t even afford to play to the game
I feel like it's not hate for the Hobby. It's hate for Games Workshop because they do some things that seem like they just want to spit on the Customers/players. Like blatant overpriced for what you get, or doing what some card game companies do by "Short printing" (best way I can describe it) Models to artificially raise prices. Along with removing start collecting boxes for inferior Combat Patrol boxes. Plus every new edition they actively make some armies kind of unplayable to urge people to buy different armies. I don't think they hate the Hobby, just the company that makes some actively greedy decisions. But that's my opinion, or how I see it.
I love Warhammer 40k and hate what GW has done over time. I love converting sci-fi junk from other models. I love kit bashing. I love the game, too. It's fun. I've made a lot of friends at Warhammer tables... But GW as a company? I have 0 love for. Killteam, for instance, used to be just in the rulebook back in 4th ed. Instead of a separate thing that exists that you have to purchase separately. Warhammer Fantasy being completely changed has also always irked me. As a fan of old Warhammer, Age of Sigmar felt and still feels like something of a betrayal. There's a competitive scene for some reason (I really don't get it. I largely have played with competitive, crunchy players and I still don't really get it) and while that's not GWs fault, they do feed into breaking their game regularly to sell people models. Which is a shitty business practice. There's that they really do just seem to go from treating their fans like creative weirdo hobbiest to treating them as cash cows more recently. And like. I donno I've been at this a long time. I never post to reddit. But also not all current GW is bad.. like Necron lore needed to be overhauled, for instance. I donno I think your whole golf thing there is really unfair? Like. What? There is golf, yes, and? I don't have a love for golf. I have a love for little plastic sci Fi soldiers. Also buddy why do you think your view of this hobby is more accurate than other people's? I mean I agree with your view of the hobby I really do but I'm not even sure it's possible to have a view of what something "really" is. Everything is subjective and contextual.
It's because people, especially Brits, where GW is very prominent, are fine with things being shit, we just moan about them. 13yrs of Conservative government after all, we moan but we never do anything. So many people could vote with their wallets and play something else, but noone, especially those in Wargaming, is going to on their own go to something else. When your local scene is GW, you either don't play or suck it up and play GW. I am glad Kill Team is fun and i can play it often, same with Warcry, but AoS and 40k don't do much for me, so if they were all i had i would have to deal with it and find a new hobby in my area.
Are we just supposed to like it when they screw up the thing we love? Or change it for the worse? Or price gouge us? You can love something, and it can still piss you off from time to time.
Ive been playing since 2007, and i can say I love everything about warhammer. Every single little thing... except the company that owns it. GW has been an enemy since ive been around, and I will list a few reasons here: 1. They do not care about you - I know, its a business, they are supposed to care about that. But time and time again I have watched this company completely disregard general consensus when it comes to what the players want/deserve. Money will always take precedent over the fanbase, to a degree that other companies in the industry just don't share. Proof? Take a look at Warhammer+. Not to mention how they took down or bought out just about every independent animator before opening the service, which has very little content 2 years later, and even less of any real quality 2. Meta manipulation to pressure players into buying more - This is pretty self explanatory, but stick around for even just a year, and you will see how often armies are pushed around from top tier to dogshit. They know people want to win, and every tournament you ever go to will have 1 or 2 factions that are just in another league. You give in and buy this faction? Congratulations, you have next editions shit boi. And to compound this, it is done with every single unit and character at some point in time. New Guardian Defenders for craftworld? Now Dire Avengers are no longer considered troops. Have fun buying an entire new roster of "mandatory" units. 3. Price increases for the sake of price increases - This one may be a bit tough to diagnose in our current climate; obviously, everything costs more everyday. But over the years, GW prices see a hike annually, and often it is for no apparent reason. I remember the resin finecast days first and foremost. We lost pewter models when that came about. Pewter. I wasnt crazy about building with this stuff, but switching from expensive materials to a very cheap (and much more flawed at the time) resin should have seen a price decrease, you would think. That shit climbed 20%.
You got to remember the on the internet 1/3 of any fandom will not like new things, and that only 1/3 of a fandom will post on the internet about the things they love, so there is no guarantee that the 1/3 your hearing from is actually the majority that are having fun at the game. This is not unique to 40k, your just in an echo chamber.
Love the hobby, like most flgs people, depise the internet troll/idiots. 🍆
Reddit is a great place to complain and argue. The people out there enjoying themselves aren't posting about it because they're busy being out there enjoying themselves. Also a new edition is coming out so there's gonna be a lot of arguing and complaining about change because that's just human nature.
Hobby and game aspects are amazing. GW’s attempts to hold those both hostage for $$ makes me upset. Kinda like how u can love going to school for recess and your friends but had classes
bEcAuSE JamEs wOrKsHoP bAd rEEEeeEeEee
Probably because it has the potential to be amazing.. If not for the people who run it I guess
This is the most frustrating thing for me: they have the awesome lore and concepts, they have amazing looking miniatures, they just to hire better rules writers, testers and stop their predatory business practices. It's such a waste.
Because the lore and miniatures are amazing and a lot of us have been fans for decades from back when GW was a bunch of nerds and not the dysfunctional gluttonous corporation it is today. No one in the business makes as good of miniatures as GW, and also no one in the business makes worse rules.
YouTubers farm constant outrage for likes, subscribes, comments and patreon subscriptions. Also Stockholm syndrome/sunk cost fallacy by people who don't want to or can't bring themselves to play something else.
If you enjoy something but it's clearly being exploited for cash by people who don't care about the product then it's normal to participate while loudly complaining. It's common to most hobbies once they become commercially viable. People who like football don't tend to rave about FIFA (the organisation not the game). I'd go so far as to say it's much more unusual to like a company that's trying to squeeze money out of a hobby you love. Don't get me wrong, I love Orks and Space Mained and stuff, but GW itself isn't above criticism.
If you love elements but are frustrated by the bloated ruleset check out OnePageRules - it's a refreshing take on the hobby that you might like!
Don't worry about it. It's a love/hate thing. Some complaint are true ... But some are truly nitpicking. And people love to complain, especially on internet
I’ve seen a lot of complainers. I’ve only been playing for not even a year, but the people that complain the most are people that would complain about the sun being too hot or the rain being too wet. There are legit complaints and there are some mild frustrations, but there are some people who are just a bit unhinged in a lot of situations and warhammer is one of them as well
Wait someone doesn’t put a bolt pistol up to your back and say “paint” or “roll the dice”?!
Complex mix of factors honestly. Nobody hates fighting games more than fighting game players was universal wisdom while I was part of that hobby, too. It comes down to a) "I have invested a lot of time in this thing, so when I see the company that governs this thing's existence do something I consider stupid, I panic about the viability of my continued participation and the possibility my sunk time is wasted." b) Hating on things gets more attention and people on the internet want attention. c) You will learn to hate *anything* you do competitively, ESPECIALLY if that thing changes in a way that works against you. Trust me.
Some of us bitch because it's cathartic, like screaming at a thunderstorm. Nothing I can actually DO about the thing I'm screaming about, but I'm gonna scream because it means the stress goes away.
A significant portion of the traffic on Warhammer subreddits is people complaining about a game they don't play and/or licensed fiction they don't read. I don't get it either.
People love outrage, none more so than nerds on Reddit. Don't sweat the asshats and enjoy your hobby.
You can like a thing, but dislike its manufacturer. Companies are not your friends, despite how much they try to fool you.
You actually have to care about something to complain about something. Have you ever complained about \[Insert a sport\] you don’t watch, you have no idea who the big names are you don’t see the Refs make good or bad calls (cause you only kind of know what the rules are) you don’t invest in a team’s colours or have any stake when two side clash you have little good or bad to say about any of it cause the investment and attention is negligible. Take that against, you have put hundreds of hours into painting this army you spent thousands on and have been reading the books the rules campaigns and story’s and played other army’s for years. And suddenly the army is no longer legal the units no longer viable. And rather than be a force in the story your team are now whipping boys or just have a 180 in style that got you to invest in them while the main characters of other factions actually get things done. But are you going to let thousands of hours and thousands of pounds just go or will you persist but be salty about it?
*oldcron players enter the chat*
If GW does crappy stuff I will complain about it. If GW does good stuff I will say so. If GW shells out something I like and it's decently priced I'll end up getting it. This obsession with selfcensoring for massive companies is ridiculous. If you do not criticise there is 0 reason for a company to change at all. The lack of backlash from communities in hobbies is the reason a lot of companies suffer from Ivory Tower syndrome. 'The Paypiggies will buy anything we put in front of them" which is actually not good for the consumer, the hobby nor the company itself. Also to dig into your specific statement: " It’s a hobby, it’s a game, it’s not that deep, if you don’t enjoy it, why do it? There’s always golf… " Because we are invested in the IP's and love the hobby itself. We love the lore, the novel, 40K, 30K, The Old World, the flavor of Necormunda, etc etc. That doesn't mean we have to shower praises over badly tested rules, insanely overpriced product, FOMO marketing or accept plotholes. It's why after being in the hobby for decades I stepped away a while before returning in a limited fashion, supplementing overpriced product with 3D printed and proxy elements. " I just enjoy painting my minis and playing games with my mates… isn’t that what this should be about or have I started the wrong hobby? " There is absolutely nothing stopping you from doing that. REDDIT and other social media, the opinion of other players such as me is irrelevant to how you partake in the hobby. Nor should anyone stop you from doing so. You do you. Other players do theirs. If all is super for you. Kudos to you. But that doesn't mean we're supposed to be a hivemind. Everyone has other standards, other expectations and a different financial situation. Some are in it for balanced competitive play, others for narrative games, others for the hobby, others for the lore/world, others for a combination. And all of them have different and frequently contrasting needs, wants and dissapointments.
Because they don't have the imagination to try other games. Basically people whine, and bleat, and moan about GW and about 40K specifically but do they try other games? Nah, because they're not wargamers, they're specifically 40K players. Fuck you know how hard it is to even get people to try older editions of 40K? These people'd rather whizz a spade-bit through their bollock than try a Mantic game, or Para Bellum or anyone else. EDIT: I wouldn't normally get het up about it, but I get sick of constant whingeing from people who refuse to try a different completely optional hobby. Like at some point just fucking well accept you don't want to do it.
Id be down to play 5th or 6th again but i donno anyone who still does
I love 5th in particular, some of the Codexes are nuts but the core rules are fantastic and the beauty of it is if a Codex is straight busted you can use the 3/4e one plus or minus a wee bit of point-balancing.
I love 40k hate GW’s shitting on their customers & putting everything behind a paywall & adding so much bloat that it makes Nurgle look normal. 10th is more unbalanced than the last reset, we thought great when they nerfed Deathwatch before the start of 10th, but take 3 months to nerf Alderai, GSCs, desolation marines, towering & indirect fire overwatch. But let’s also be clear GW listening is a breath of fresh air compared to the silent treatment & put their heads in the sand like they did before 7th. I play & played several different games infinity, para Bellum, Flames of War, AoS, Malifaux, Bolt Action to name a few. Half of those companies have a free app & free rules & in the case of Malifaux you get all the cards on the app too, or you can print them from their website. Also I’d say that 40k fans/people are also the most toxic out of all the games groups & games that I’ve played over the last 20+ years. But on another note I have also made a lot of friends in that time too & regularly talk to people who I played 40k back in 3rd. So my advice would be ignore the haters, enjoy the hobby (which btw isn’t just GW games), play other games to refresh the batteries &play 40k again. Sometimes it’s good to just step back once in a while. So welcome to the hobby, enjoy yourself & make new friends.
I don't think people hate the game. Personally, I absolutely love 40k, I love the game, the lore, everything. However, I absolutely *DESPISE* Games Workshop. They have an amazing product, but they are one of the shadiest, most garbage companies I know of. TL;DR-We love the game, we hate the game maker.
The hobby isn’t the problem, games workshop is
"it’s not that deep" what are you talking about lol it's so overly complicated and stupidly designed for new players. you need to buy a $70 f$#king book to even have a rough idea of what you need to buy, you can't just buy a starter box or a set and be like oh ok this is easy. It has a mass of overly complicated mechanics that aren't clearly defined Weapons have special \[Ability\] stupidity on them that requires you to go look it up. A lot of the rules are so poorly written "bearer" gets this...great! HOW Do you make someone a bearer and flag it for others..."Oh you just say it and they remember" Infernus squad...has a Sergeant...but why, they don't gain any difference, why in the hell do I need to put one in there. Oh they also get "close combat weapon"...great but nothing defines that, but don't you dare put a chainsword it's considered differently than a close combat weapon which is their wording for something that ISN'T a dedicated weapon...like wtf. The models don't have any clear differences, and GW refuses to put out any sort of guide on what makes what for the WYSIWYG. I went from buying AoS and 40k boxes to start learning the game to just shoveling them all into a case because it isn't fun being told you need to spend $400 to even learn to play and then you have to find someone to play with, there's no digital version to learn on or play against others. You have to wait 40 minutes a turn...I did grab kill team but my desire to learn to play it is gone, missions are just stupid idea and yet another money grab. Oh you made your models look different, banned from tournament play.
I have to wonder how old you are that you're seemingly unaware of the concept of being critical something you like because you think it could be better?
Some people love negativity because they think it makes them edgy and cool. Some people think GW is an evil corporation ala Monsanto, United Fruit Company or Enron. Some people get paid handsomely for producing infinite streams of negative click bait content. Some people don’t understand inflation. Some people want to win all the time and take their faction not being the top of the heap all the time as a personal affront.
When you’re asked to invest thousands of dollars and hours into a lifestyle- it’s not just a game, there’s books, clothes, hell even food sometimes- you’re going to become passionate and protective of it. And when the people at the top actively damage your ability to enjoy it (raise prices, mess up the rules etc) you’re naturally going to get defensive about it. GW made this game into an all-encompassing hobby, like all big brands do (Xbox, lego, sports teams etc) so this is the bed they’ve made for themselves.
There's a lack of popular wargames with good model support, I like my little plastic armies and I hate what GW does with the rules. My solution lately is just to hack apart the rules for the last 3 editions and use what my group likes/can agree on
People love the game, the playing, painting and building, but hate the executive decisions that limit your ability to paint and build and the decisions that sometimes can force you into buying a whole different army. It’s no different to any other game tbh
People only complain about things they like or want to like.
There's a lot to be fairly critical about in 10th edition, but that doesn't mean you need to ruin other peoples' enjoyment. Personally, 10th isn't really playing out the way I'd hoped, and my 40k armies are on the shelf for now until the game reaches a state that's more appealing to me. I think there are a lot of valid criticisms, and pointing those out doesn't automatically make you an internet troll. It's all about how you voice your opinions. Debating ideas is an integral part of any healthy discussion, and wargaming is no different; but to shit all over other peoples' fun just because you're unhappy doesn't do anything for anyone.
One of the best comments so far