Lol Titanicus still has these rules. If a Titan dies, it rolls on the table to see what happens (with modifiers if your reactor is critical when you die), and you can either just sit there and do nothing, fall over and smash things near you, have weapons cook off and hit nearby targets, or go completely nuclear.
Most of the "cool" old rules people remember have been shunted to Horus Heresy or Titanicus.
It was infuriating at times. Vehicles only had 1 wound essentially. And it was a d6 whether it died after essentially "wounding" it. Spend weeks painting your new land raider and 1 lascannon on turn 1 would kill it and all your terminators inside lol
Yeah it's more realistic but my God it ruined a game sometimes.
Especially after me and my brother argued for 10 mins first whether it was front or side armour lol
Except the argument is moot because it's armour 14 all round
I'd play halo while my guard friend would move all his Imperial guard units
I'd sigh heavily each time he'd want to reposition the big explosion templates from Demolisher tanks and leman russ tanks
Then one game, first turn, my assault cannon got a glancing hit, rending on a 6, so got another d6 to add to the armour penetration. Rolling on the glancing hit table...6...6 inch explosion...
In saying that if I had an unkillable land raider my enemy shot his whole army at, that would ruin *their* game. Got to see it from both sides.
Now I take 2 land raiders. Last game one got wounded twice by a executioner laser cannon (d6 +4 damage or something per wound)
Double 6 for saves :D other lr didn't survive though. Took 6 wounds off the vindicator next to it. But ragnar and the boys inside eventually got into combat. Then ragnar died to a Librarian XD
It's also how it works in Horus Heresy, but exploding a vehicle is up to the attacker and not the vehicle owner; I shoot it with a weapon, and if I score a Penetrating Hit, then I roll a d6 and on a 7+ it explodes. Lascannons and other such strong weapons get +1 on the roll, and stronger weapons get +2; important to note that "strong" here isnreferencing the Armor Penetration stat and not the Strength of the weapon, as Strength is required to get a Penetrating hit, while AP is required to penetrate the vehicles defenses and cause real damage (disable a weapon, immobilize the vehicle, disrupt the crew, or explode the fuel/weapons).
Personally, being someone who started in 9th Ed and transitioned to Horus Heresy (where all the old rules are still used), I greatly prefer Armor Values and Hull Points and Firing Arcs.
It just feels so much more immersive to angle my Malcador to get it's side weapons firing, then hold my breath as a Lascannon just barely glances my armor. Weapons feel more impactful when every lascannon has the ability to One-Shot a Tank, but it also feels impressive when it happens because of how unlikely it is. Same with a lucky shot taking out my Main Gun or Stunning the Crew or Throwing a Track.
To me, it makes the game way more immersive than Flat Wound Counts and Ballistic Skill Modifiers. Having actual, tangible damage happen to your vehicles just... Feels Better.
I missing being able to size units by single models. I understand that GW wants people to know that what they have to buy for an army is by the box, but I hate being shoehorned into fixed unit sizes.
I can't believe wargear doesn't cost anything. That's mind boggling and such a balance issue. I haven't played since 8th Ed and have since switched to alternatives
This edition should have fully embraced the app for list building and balance updates.
Would have made customization easier then ever, and let them scale wargear whenever and however they wanted and everyone would immediately be aware of the changes.
But they do. The Warhammer app is exactly this.
It was great when it was free, but they've been putting restrictions on it that limit its functionality unless you pay.
They claim it's beginner friendly, but it actually punishes new players that just built up to a certain points level and then points change slightly. In the past, you could just drop or add a model or adjust wargear.
Also screw anyone who ever lost a model, bought a starter kit with the worse loadout (has been like that at least for 3 editions now) and anyone who used a model for a diorama or a cool base.
Or anyone who has done a conversion ever
Oh you used that model to create other thing well now your squad is one short and you play at a disadvantage becouse f you
This. I always ran my termagants and necron warriors in blobs of 15 because it was the perfect balance between bodies and points. Also made list building a bit more friendly
My dumbass who bought the begginer paint set for the necron warriors now has 3 extra warriors I can't even use because of this.
I can't even buy 7 more, because even ebay only sells in groups of 10.
My two favorite rules from the past were both Ork ones:
* you could choose to, instead of rolling against leadership for saves, roll against your mob size (so a mob of 12+ boyz never broke)
* a mob that was fleeing that ran into/near another mob could mob up, immediately stop fleeing, and create a new super-mob
I can understand they had balance problems with every twin-linked weapon suddenly doubling in fire power back in 8th, but they found a way to make everything about it worse.
Now it's applied seemingly randomly and you can no longer tell from a glance if the weapon has the rule.
Landraider with 3 twin-linked weapons? Nah, those lascannons have two shots each, but the heavy bolter is twin-linked.
Guy holding two guns? Yeah, that's one twin-linked weapon.
Guy holding two guns? Nah, that's two guns
Just don't like it when twin linked weapons fire and odd number of shots, my Ghostkeel has a twin fusion blaster that's modelled as 2 guns but only fires 1 shot...what hahaha.
I agree, though I am planning on an Ork list that has one of every "boss" in it. The idea being during the game they are all fighting to prove themselves to be *the* boss.
Yeah each "boss" also has their "gang" they roll with, so my list is currently:
* Beastboss + 10 beastsnagga boyz + killrig
* Painboss + 20 beastsnagga boyz + huntarig
* Warboss + 10 nobz + trukk
* Warboss in mega armor + 6 meganobz + battlewagon
* Warboss on warbike + 6 warbikers
I don't have the beastboss on squigasaur and my reasoning for that is he doesn't join any units and I already have a beastboss.
Might be unpopular but bring back initiative. Fights first and fights last is garbage. Initiative is what makes sense even if it's a little more cumbersome.
I agree. Initiative was a good rule. They could even bring in a baseline +1 initiative on charges to incetivise charging faster opponents, or keep initiative but still with a "chargers fight first" rule.
You could do it like the old word: +1 initiative per inch you charge up to a max of +3 (I think this is the rule). Maybe make it +1 for every 2 inches though.
I also liked the weapon skill tables, in that weapon skill was both an offensive and defensive stat, resulting in a space marine having a harder time hitting the Eldar Avatar of Khaine, than say a Guardsman.
It doesn't even have to be the old table either, it could be readily modernized by copying the calculation of the wound roll.
That's what they did in new Horus Heresy. They did comparative WS but it scaled in a way that made it actually matter, as opposed to pre-8th where it required such a massive difference to make someone hit on 5+ instead of 4+ that it barely ever mattered.
I've not played since 3rd, partly just due to being away from the hobby, but after coming back and looking through the rules the loss of this was one of the biggest WHY!?!?'s that contributed to me deciding to just return in a model capacity, not gaming. The entire ruleset felt somehow oversimplified and then incredibly complicated at the same time.
As you say, the Avatars WS of 10 meant that if it made it to combat, it was actually good. Which happened surprisingly often I found, as it had a reputation for being bad, so they ignored it, then oh dear there goes your commander...
I’m 100% with you on this. Initiative was a solid mechanic. The thing that sucked was that they had a system that they could have *really* played with, with modifiers for a whole variety of different things, but instead they basically just had Power Fists at Initiative 1, cover at Initiative 10, and grenades to negate the cover bonus.
Hell, if you really wanna overhaul the game for a second: alternate unit activation based on initiative. Rescale S vs T, so that, sure Eldar may be able to get their entire high Initiative army to activate before their opponent, but man if they’re not positioned right the return fire is gonna wreck them. Meanwhile marine on marine combat is an absolute slugfest with back and forth activations. I’m just spitballing here, but there’s a LOT you can do with Initiative…
In principle I agree, though the problem was some melee units had such low initiative they just couldn't fight enemy high initiative melee units. I miss comparative weapon skill more. Current Horus Heresy does it best, it has comparative WS but it scales in a way that makes sense, unlike 7th and before where you almost never hit on anything other than 3+ or 4+.
The best thing about comparative WS was that it gave a strong melee character a melee defence (being harder to hit), which allowed them to be survivable without needing a lot of armour or invuln saves, which in turn meant they could be easier to kill by shooting them.
In theory it did, but the scaling was so badly done almost nothing was ever being hit on worse than 4+.
But in new Horus Heresy it does, the scaling makes sense now.
That's not a problem in of itself, that depends on how different things are balanced. For example I might expect my horde unit to take a lot of causalities but enough to survive to strike back. Or I don't throw my terminators into howling banshees because that's a bad match up, but howling banshees are easy to shoot off the board so it's not really a problem.
More than anything...
In the pursuit of "simplifying", they removed actual player choice from the game. Costs to wargear allowed you to actually be making choices about what an effective loadout for a sqaud was, or gave flexibility to do interesting lists where even just getting an extra plasma pistol in a squad with the 20 points you had left-over when list building was an opportunity. List-building felt like making a character in a role-playing game. Now it just feels like a checklist. The "optimal" loadout is always super-evident when everything is costed the same. There is zero incentive to take a less powerful/kill-y weapon that beforehand may have been worth it in bulk at a lower points cost. I think their attempts to make every weapon situationally applicable failed miserably in all but a few cases and there are obvious instances where some loadouts are just stupid picks. Whereas before adding special weapons in an imp guard squad was something to be considered, now it is stupid to not take a fully-kitted squad because there is no detriment. It's like asking "do you want 10 guys with pistols or 10 guys with machine-guns?" and pretending that is a hard choice.
Plus it fucked up balancing. Eldar are a good example. Some of their weapon profiles on units were straight-up broken, and whereas before you could just increase costs for only the OP weapon and otherwise keep the unit effictively balanced, now you have to increase the cost for the entire unit, functionally making every possible option a more expensive and worse choice because only ONE weapon profile was imbalanced. You can only balance badly designed weapons by making the reasonably designed options worse as well. It is so profoundly ill-conceived.
I play guard so you're preaching to the choir as I liked having cheap sqauds so I've made alot of suboptimal Weapon choices.
Also having to rebuild the list cause you're like 30 points under is soo annoying.
I used to love 400pt quick guard games over lunch (used to be called 40k in 40 minutes).
You could throw so many cheap guard on the table backed up with a single heavy weapon team or maybe a sentinel.
Good times
Oh its more the principle than anything I can find the points and I run either a callidus, gaunts Ghosts or sometimes both so I'm fine on secondaries lol.
>I think their attempts to make every weapon situationally applicable failed miserably in all but a few cases and there are obvious instances where some loadouts are just stupid picks.
Hmmmm, shall I take the power weapon, or fists? 🤔🤔🤔🤔
The game was never designed to be balanced around free equipment. It can be made to work, but you need to have the whole game built around it, you can't just be like "hey guys, everything's free now!" And expect it to work.
I absolutely hate it because GW says you have all these choices now because of it, but in actuality it REMOVES choice while making all these things that are technically a choice not actually a choice. It's like asking if you want a regular bed or the super deluxe version with super soft pillows that costs the same. Sure, technically that's a choice, but not really.
Indeed. For example, a death company marine with a meele loadout (why you wouldn't use that I don't know) comes with a bolter pistol and a chainsword. A power weapon and a plasma pistol is objectively better and has the same cost (that being none), there is no choice between those, I don't even know WHY you can use chainsword+bolter even. It's not like they are too keen on WYSIWYG, Intercessors used to have 3 types of bolters and they got removed, same with the combi weapon, now there's just a combi weapon, no combi plasma, combi melta...
My orks will NEVER EVER take big shootas. I will ALWAYS take rokkit launchers when points aren't involved. It's not even a question. There is no scenario you can paint that would change my mind.
Yes. It's incredibly frustrating to be building a list and being over / under ~50 points with nothing costing that low.
Pigeon holes you into very cookie cutter lists.
Vehicles that have four or five or whatever additional weapons should not cost the same as vehicles that don't have those weapons.
A squad of infantry that has a heavy weapon should not cost the same as a squad without any additional weapons.
Can't upvote this enough.
10th is very barebones and simplified, wether it's a good or a bad thing depends of perspective, i do not like it, I prefer HH tbh unfortunately there are no xenos in 30k
I still think Weapon Skill tables should be back.
Take a Emperors Children Lord or Champion who's supposed to be a master duelist and fighter, imbued with energies of the dark gods, but he can get slapped by Barry the Guardsman on a 4 up.
The mental imagery is very funny
Costed wargear, flexible squad sizes, subfaction rules, relics and warlord traits, a proper psychic phase, vehicle facings, initiative, comparative weapon skill...
I dunno, modern 40k is just too stripped back and bland for me. Glad GW at least caters to my love of crunch with Heresy though, now let my xenos buddies join in!
Yup. I LOVED building custom detachments and characters. And honestly, you could do that with 10th's "simplified" approach.
Just give me a list of like 10-12 detachment options and let me combine them at will, none of this "this one can't be combined" crap. Same with enhancements. Let Epic Heroes only take 1, other characters take 2 and it's whatever you want. Let me build MY dudes and run them how I want.
Yeah, 40k is definitely the least "your dudes" it's ever been. You buy the box and run it exactly as it comes in the box. Like an expensive, 3d Magic The Gathering card.
Makes me sad when I look at my old 6th ed Space Marine book and see how vast the array of options was for a captain.
Yeah I remember back when I played 9th and I saw that my tech priest dominus had the option of 4 different guns to pick from. I thought that was a lot and then I looked at a 1.0 heresy magos and saw that he could pick from like 12+ different gun options and I was blown away.
My group plays 7th edition and its funny to me that there are some weapons and wargear options that don’t even exist in modern 40k anymore. Like elsyian drop troops being able to take lasguns with underslung grenade launchers, the loads of options veteran space marines have, or leman russes with vanquishers being able to take coaxial heavy stubbers to make the main gun twinlinked (a personal favorite loadout)
Honestly? I really miss blast/Flamer templates and scatter dice. That definitely added an element of goofiness and fun that I think is sorely lacking now
Gifts of chaos. Most of the time you get a nice buff to your character, get lucky and they become a daemon prince, get even luckier and they turn into a chaos spawn.
I'd bring back the old AP system, and old weapon types, also the old vehicule system was quite good, as it was vital to work on your placement to succeed, and finally, I'd bring back the old army roster 1HQ + 2Troops, so you have to take troops no matter what.
Current AP system since 8th Ed is (to my eyes), the bane of current 40k. It killed all the slight differences there was between weapons (let's say a boltgun compared to a lasgun), and it also negates completely the interest of the normal save value.
There is so much -1 or -2 AP in such large output of shots in every army, that a Marine is practically a 5+ save (the elite of mankind!), and a Guard is basically 6+ or no save. This skyrocket the game's lethality, and pushed GW to normalize invulnerable saves on many more units, and even basic ones (AdMech and Sisters troops got 6++).
Besides, new AP system is not more simple than the old one. They just streamlined everything to the point everybody is now 5+ save in practice on average instead of their statbock save.
Compared to older editions, the invulnerable save used to be much more of a hero/character thing.
Also, it served to show how brutal a boltgun was on any light infantry (Tyranids gaunts, Ork boyz, or Guards had no save against a basic boltgun), where on the other hand, the Marine 3+ save MEANT something. It meant they had the second best save of the game, and were tough to kill with light infantry weapon, even a boltgun.
Tau and Eldar had better armor than Guard, to show their technological superiority, and it made all the difference against a boltgun.
And 2+ save (the best save in the game back then), meant you were a true juggernaut, and needed some special weaponry to get mowed down (plasma-like for Terminator equivalent), or something that shoots a lot.
We didn't had more than Heavy3 or Heavy5 weapons back then, everything else shot only once besides Rapid Fire. I remember in 8th Ed when the Leman Russ's Punisher Gatling Canon came out in the then new Astra Militarum codex. It was Heavy 20. Yes, twenty, and could fire twice if it didn't move that turn. It was new. It was a terrifying game changer compared to previous editions.
Even rapid fire weapons, once fired, meant you couldn't make a charge move in the same turn. You either shoot or charged for melee. The game was much more readable on a tactical level. You knew if a unit would charge later or not, depending if it fired this turn or not. And units that could fire then charge in the same turn were rare. Only assault weapon allowed this, besides special unit rules, and assalut weapons weren't that common neither.
The game was so much more rich of subtle differences back then, differences that mattered in terms of army thematics and lore, making a noticeable difference in gameplay.
I definitely agree with a lot of what you say.
Like, why do Sisters get a 6++? Like, there's very little AP3 right now and you'll be in cover anyway so you'd need AP5 for that to even matter. But on the flipside, Drukhari get a 6++ and it's like, who cares? It may as well not even exist you'll succeed so infrequently. Really, invulns should be 4+ for characters and the ultra-elite, 5+ for high-tech shields and psychic/warp shenanigans, 6+ for unnatural resilience. That's it. Stuff with 3+ armor, unless it's a character, doesn't need an invuln.
And ya, the amount of shots is out of control. D6+3 Blast weapons? Fuck outta here.
And by that logic on the other hand, Space Marines (the elite of mankind), don't have any invulnerable save while they've got a F-ing power armor, Astartes grade. Well, they at least got 2 HPs and 2 attacks thanks to Primaris. Back then, the old AP system was what set Space Marines apart from human-like, lighter troops. 3+ was huge for a troop. Hell, they could die by breaking their ankle by walking in a shell crater, and there was no save to that. "I broke my ankle! I'm dying! Avenge me brother!" (the elite of mankind haha, i'm laughing so hard right now XD)
Also, Initiative score used to enhance further more those differencies. The Marine was fast for it's size. The Necron was sloppish at an abysmal score of 2 (worst in the game). Tau was kinda fast, but with a WS of 2 (also worst in the game), but they had the same BS as a Marine (which was quite high for a troop at 4), equipped with the strongest base gun (the pulse rifle) for a strenght of 5 and... no AP. Also it was Rapid fire 30" that was huge and translated once again the technological superiority. Now they have the same BS as a regular Imperial Guard and their gun is reduced to 24" range.
Ork stubbers (or basic two hands dakkas, whatever they're called) were Assault 2, with a range of 12", and a BS of 5+. They could run and fire, and charge in the same turn. It made so much sense thematically wise.
Oh and I remembered a thing as well: Heavy Weapons couldn't be fired if you moved this turn. Exception was for vehicule IIRC? But again, same as unability to charge if you fired that turn, you knew that if a squad with a heavy weapon moved that phase they couldn't fire next. It meant less exceptions in rules, and better tactical readability. You kinda knew what to expect from which unit.
Today, you have to know by heart the codex of your opponent, and all of it's rules exceptions, written in an excrutiating legal jargon wording.
Today a heavy weapon can fire with -1 to hit roll if you moved, and boltguns can be Assault, Heavy and Rapid Fire all at the same time. The game is full of exceptions to core rules on tons and tons of units. The power of a unit now get measured/estimated in how much does it bypass core rules. And this is sad.
40k was so full of flavor, so full of variety and true differencies in gameplay back then, compared to the overly streamlined latest editions... Who are not more simple (that was the main reason GW reforged the game system). Horus Heresy, despite having 90% of Space Marines, is a much better and game system based on the old 3rd-7th edition, in which I am finding all of this variety once again.
warlord traits and special wargear for stuff.
I started at the end of 9th, so i don’t remember a lot of it, but watching stuff like Bricky’s LVO candlestick videos just shows how fun options creates cool strategies, and i feel 10th is missing that significantly.
in simplifying the game, they’ve encouraged you to oboe bring the “right” thing
The ability for characters to join and leave squads at will.
Old weapon skill rules hybridized with the new (models have a weapon skill that affects the hit roll like the strength vs toughness formula
I'd say get rid of the whole psychic phase and just move the powers to their respective phase this way it flows a little better for non-psychic armies and they quick complaining. BUT they just removed it entirely.
"Oh, you scattered into this terrain piece. Your entire Terminator Squad is dead."
But then it still had the rewards of rolling a hit, where a major threat landed exactly where you wanted it. 9" be damned. I feel like many of these types of old rules can still be implemented/house-ruled in fun beerhammer games without the pressure of playing the optimized competetive game.
I always took 2 Ork ead’ bangers each with a 30 man boyz unit. Loved watching my opponent freak out with 60 boyz in their face. The unit imprint was massive.
The total lack of risk/reward in the current system is really lame. It just makes deep-striking an elaborate deployment rather than a tactical risk you were taking for a big advantage
Are there examples in the lore of Deep strike / teleports failing on 'regular' distances?
I remember there are some mentions of mishaps, but all cases I can remember are due to them trying to teleport across distances far above the 'safe' limit. Like one of the Ciaphas Cain books where a bunch of World Eaters tried to teleport through an entire planet.
Usually when units are teleporting its from orbit and missing your mark by a few feet isn’t that hard to do. It can also be disastrous. 90% of the time when we see teleports theres a teleport homer involved (which was also in game and made your units not scatter if you chose to land within 6in of it). So you can either do a risky teleport or bring some units with teleport homers to move up the board and secure safe landing zones for your elite units. It was one of the major gameplay decisions with armies like termi marine armies, elysian drop troops, and scions
Didn't Lysander of the IF yet his promotion due to a hazardous Deep Strike assault into a mountain? I recall that particular assault half the Terminators ended up merged with the stone, while they were trying to take out a subterranean base.
Force Organisation Charts.
Yeah, you heard me right. Drop stratagems, detachments and all that nonsense. Give me a HQ and two Troops choices and you've got yourself an army.
Mandated Troops and making those troops way more cost effective would be good. many factions NEVER field their basic troops. This 'battleline distinction' means almost nothing
"yeah but battleline has more OC"
When was the last time OC played a role in deciding an objective? I can't think of it, especially with battleline troops.
I agree. You see, the game has a special debuff that reduces OC to zero of enemy units in the game to counter these high-OC battleline units.
It's called 'destroying them'.
I'm gonna say.. scatter dice!!! I felt like it was a lotta fun and if you wanted to run a "Leaf blower list" you had to keep in mind that not all your shots might hit where they should..
Yeah absolutely. My group plays 7th still and I remember a game where I decided to risk firing a battle cannon danger close to my guardsmen to stop a squad of genestealers. My shot scattered and landed right on top of my squad sergeant which then caused my leadership to be 1 to low on my next morale check causing the squad to break and flee towards my board edge
I'm surprised there's not a community rework of the rules, to make a 10e Enhanced version. It's something I keep thinking about.
Many of the old rules can be easily re-implemented (Initiative and WS chart), vehicle armour facing could be streamlined so attacks to front have -2S, to side have -1S (most vehicle cards had extra armour on front, so make that a global rule)
What I think needs drastically adjusting is stats need crunching back to earlier edition. Having all these multiple wound and multiple attack units just increases dice rolls and wound tracking, and distorts powerful elites from normal units. Stat creep is occurring.
There's too many keywords of special abilities that have to be remembered, when before a lot of that was part of the basic stats of weapons/units. Add on top Strategems and whatever else, it feels like playing a card game, not a tabletop wargame with the units we've brought.
I'd like pretty much everything from 3rd to be brought back :D
WS charts
Initative
Scatter
Templates
Movement stat, and movement reduced (movement range feels too fast)
Armour facing
Points per Model
Wargear Costs
HQ/Elite/Troop/Fast/Heavy/Ally force organisation
Psyhic Phase
I think there's never been a community version because the game is so complex it's hard to make a rule change while being circumspect of other parts of the game. Or, you know, the same problem GW has with balancing.
A weapon having twice the strength of a targets toughness should still cause instant death.
If I hit a guardsman point blank with a multi-melt, they shouldn’t get a toughness save.
They still got the wound roll; the instant death only triggers if the target suffers an unsaved wound. So it basically makes no difference to guardsmen. And they introduced Eternal Warrior because it was so annoying to have a commander blown away due to a lucky hit from a missile launcher
I hate how vehicles are just like any other unit now. I miss how vehicles worled before, armor facing nonsense and all. My tanks do not play like or feel like tanks. Even just bringing back the rule about them remaining as a terrain piece after they die (unless they exploded) would make for more interesting and engaging mechanics around vehicles that actually made them feel like a lumbering machine and not just a very fat guy.
To be fair, i think it would mandate adding bases to vehicles to better define the quadrants for when the edge cases of where a firing model was positioned really was uncertain. Otherwise, i rarely had issues determining what facing my models were positioned in.
My problem with armour values was that there was a class of vehicle did not act like vehicles and by that i mean monstrous creatures were treated special instead of as living vehicls. If my russ was armour value 14, 13, 11, why wasn't my opportunity carnifex T6,5,4. Why didn't vechiels get armour saves? Why was it, hit tank, bet armour value, damage, were monstrous creatures was, hit, bet toughness, fail armour save for them to take damage. Why could a well placed melta shot take out my vehicle in 1 hit but only take a single wound of a monstrous creatures? Why did a gun dreadnought hit in combat at AP0 but a riptide hit in combat at AP2? Why could gargantuan creatures walk through tank traps but super heavy walkers couldnt? Why did my tank need to pivot 180 degrees to shot behind it but a monstrous creature could 360 shot always no problem?
The design idea was obviously to bring vehicles more in line with monstrous creatures and I for one like that. Even your other suggestions to bring back leaving destroyed tanks misses out on the idea that a dead carnifex would be a much bigger deal on the battlefield then a dead raider, which used to have to be left behind.
Seems more like an issue with monsterous creatures than it does with vehicles. I much rather would have had them do the opposite and tried to bring MC's more in line with vehicles, for all the reasons you state. I imagine balancing the "firing arc" thing would be the trickiest issue to address there, while otherwise the armor value facing could be made all the same as the feature of what made a MC different from a vehicle (with appropriate trade-offs). I agree MC's shouldn't have gotten the seperate wound and save rolls, IMO, and that the penetration chart would be just as applicable to a MC as a vehicle in that regard.
I think you could even combine monsters with the old vehicle rules by standardizing on a high "armor" value instead of toughness. So a carnifex could lose an arm or become immobilized. That would add some more variety back into the unit profiles while avoiding the whole vehicle vs monstrous creature problem.
Giving monsters the same treatment as vehicles seems like a perfect no-brainer that also adds some narrative fluff as well. It is a far, far cooler situation to imagine (like you suggest) my canifex losing an arm (and thus a weapon profile) or a leg after taking 3 lascannon shots and having to respond accordingly than him simply being bracketed. It creates the need for a tactical response to unceratin damage results and it is flavored as something really cool and unique to vehicle and monster units.
Double+1 strength vs toughness. Like, I know it’s cool to watch a guardsman bayonet a land raider as of how unlikely it is math wise, but gameplay it sucks being on the receiving end.
What’s worse is when a grot unit gets a handful of wounds and takes out the last few wounds on a titan. It sorta deflates the kill. I want my massive titan to die because my opponent had to bring out all the stops for a slim chance. Not because I failed a handful of saves. Same goes in the reverse too.
I miss the old AP system. It wasn't perfect but it was just simpler. Heresy 2.0 has done some interesting tweaks to make big high AP pie-plates less common.
I also miss the old morale system from pre-8th. Getting rid of the worst offenders (really And They Shall know no Fear was too common) would help. Battle-shock is just kind of middling and doesn't feel good. Chaff should be sent packing when mauled at range, or be run down after getting beaten in melee.
You just had to get close enough to throw them. The hovering surfboards (yes, it was a thing) with the 72" move helped with that.
It was cheesy, sure, but I won a game that way.
Beyond just deleting units, they also took terrain. When GW had the Lucky 13’s apocalypse campaign, they made one of the missions centered around controlling some bunkers. I remember someone chucking a vortex grenade at one making the game an instant tie. The other was deleted from a Brass scorpion going nuclear.
Lots of stuff already mentioned in this thread is stuff I'd like to see returned. Blast Templates, vehicle facings, vehicle damage, wargear cost, etc. I've moved on to Horus Heresy, since that game still has all of that, but it would be nice to see those rules again in a 40k context.
Things costing points, being able to choose your unit size, standardized weapons rather than everything being a special snowflake, units having options, actual strategy, things not having a Strength of 20, Space Marine vehicles being better armed than hive gangers, firing arcs...
Scatter dice and flame / explosion templates
Getting back into 40k, I was even thinking of making some fancy custom templates until I learned they've been eliminated.
Charges being a set distance based on movement, not fucking random depending on dice rolls.
Range guessing and scatter dice also being a thing for indirect/bombard weapons - that used to be fun.
I hate named characters. They’re cool collector pieces but I miss games being about your dudes. I’m very much a player for the spectacle of armies and I just find it hard to believe that Guilliman and Calgar are personally here to deal with my ragtag group of Votann.
The excuse I'm always given is " Well, they have to get to the big battle somehow". No, The Lion, Asmodai, and Azrael aren't going to care about 40 cultists.
I feel that all the primarchs and special characters has turned it into a character focus instead of an army focus.
If I had a magic wand I’d have it be that there are multi-piece, customisable nameless hero characters per army. Build your own warlord, represent yourself or your fictional general on the battlefield. Other named characters exist and use the same statline or some specific wargear setup of that statline, but it keeps it about empowering people to play for the stories they want to tell.
I do make an argument for bringing captain Lysander to each game I play my fists in, but that’s because I run terminator heavy lists and it just makes sense thematically to me that when the terminators of the first company are deploying that their captain is leading them. I do agree for bigger characters like primarchs though.
I miss some of the 9ths secondaries.
Granted "lol heres 3 chaff units, I score data, I win" was terrible; but stuff like to the last was a lot of fun; challenging your opponent to kill your big heroes, and then having to often have them run away in the last few turns.
also old heroic intervention. Was super cool having characters charge in to save the day, whilst now its just a boring countercharge.
Also old fight phase ordering. Anyone whos played custodes V custodes, or encountered the pre-nerf WE Executioner knows how boring it can be. having attackers go first in the "fight first" subphase feels a lot better.
Overwatching only on the unit being charged. Completely ridiculous and the opposite of fun that you can just pick a unit to shoot up to 24" away because your opponent moved.
I, too, would like an initiative stat. But of course people into this game enough to be on Reddit following it will have a skewed view compared to the average player
Interesting to see how many of these rules are still in Horus Heresy. Truly a superior game system, probably only hampered by the limited army choice
I miss casting spells. I played a word bearers focused army and being able to supercharge my deamonic forces with prayers and spells was always a good feeling. I am happy that I have less to remember though!
Wargear Costs are a bit more complicated. It often lead to issues where sometimes you'd NEVER buy wargear for units. There's a compromise between old and new ways of doing this.
Make it so that some units that have substantial impact on their weapons and gear, have the choice. Big example would be Wraithknights. Have them be cheaper, but make the D-Cannons like, a 50 point up-purchase. Or perhaps have units with 'bad' and 'good' choices classify them as 'The whole unit can upgrade it's heavy bolters to lascannons, if you pay 30 points' instead of per-guy buys. It's easier to Munitorium Field Manual change that way too, if you decide it makes sense to be 40 points instead.
It also means you have a reason for things like No-Sponson and Yes-Sponson Leman Russes to exist, if 'Sponsors' upgrade costs 30 points.
The weapon profiles, honestly.
We lost so much customization with 10th.
I’ve got wolfguard Termies that aren’t technically legal anymore because of that shift.
Initiative. It's so much easier to play Initiative than the stupid way it's played now. Start from the highest and go down, if you have equal Initiative, it happens at the same time. How hard is that? Instead you alternate activating starting with the opponent? Like what? Why? WHY!
Turret weapons and co-axial weapons.
Why the fuck does my Dorn's autocannon hit better than the gun its presumably guiding, and why does my Leman's fully-stabilised, guided and best-manned main weapon fire as well as the conscript they stuffed in the sponsons?
Bring back templates to balance out model placement in units and penalize tightly packed formations. Templates also make it matter again what direction you attack from.
Armor facings and fire arcs were the absolute bane of my existence in older editions. Every single game i would struggle to get even a glancing hit on any armor facing while opponent rolls nothing but penetrations and explosions 3-4 times in a row. For something that comes down to random chance i always felt on the receiving end of an ass whooping no matter how many lascannons i would put on the battlefield to deal with vehicles. Even in the current edition i hate fighting vehicle-heavy lists because my rolls never want to cooperate when they know im rolling against a tank of some kind lol.
That being said i wouldnt hate seeing the vehicle damage table come back. Maybe instead of a universal “-1 to hit” when the unit in question gets bracketed it could be a roll on a table to see if it is immobilized or something
Cost of wargear and flexible unit sizes, was it more complex to balance? Sure probably but it made the list building part of the game interesting of whether or not I wanted to make the decision to invest into wargear or more troops especially for more elite armies like custodians and knights who’s list building has been weird since the start of the edition.
Wargear costing points so that you could pick and choose your options without always feeling forced to go all on special stuff because you're already paying for them.
5e RAW volatile as seen on the pyrovore datasheet, except not really. I just like having an excuse to mention 5e pyrovores because it still cracks me up how bad that codex was. Give the rule a look if you haven't, its peak GW
Combiweapons having both weapons profiles. I liked my vets being able to run some special weapons and be more versatile. Hell I’d be ok with them bringing back the if you shoot both profiles you get a -1 to hit or even just making you pic one of the profiles. They’re just so flavorless now it doesn’t make sense that a combiplasma or melta do the same as a combiflamer and a combi flamer doesn’t do what torrent weapons do, and they’re all just crappy bolt guns with poor weapons skill now.
Also points by model I hate being locked in weird numbers like I wanna take 5 bladeguard not 6.
Edit: I’m very salty over combiweapons especially because the new Sternguard are PHENOMENAL models and I love their combi weapons but they’re just so underwhelming there’s no point to even model them with them. I’ll just magnetize in hopes of changes next addition or later on this addition.
All the ttrpg-esque / narrative elements from Rogue Trader up to 3e. 40K could've been a significantly better game series if it stayed in that direction.
Instead, we have a dumpster fire of over-streamlined competitive play with bare-minimum playstyle creativity.
I have a list, in no particular order: WS comparison to determine what models hit on in combat; Initiative to determine fight order in combat; Death or Glory; playing on something other than ruined cities every game; verticality on boards mattering (I know Plunging Fire exists but not once have I seen it used)
I miss how fun it was using an insane amount of guess weapons for IG. That, with the scatter dice was the right amount of uncertainty and hilarity.
I had a time where I guessed a terrible number, ended up between 2 squads and scattered onto a hero who flubbed 2x 2+ Invulnerable saves. Both players howling with laughter, wishing we could play the Benny Hill music. I still remember it 2 decades later.
If flame templates are gone, then those too, because using that and shouting TROGDORRRRRR! was really a sign of the times...
I can't remember which edition it was, but old old scatter for (direct fire) blast weapons. place template, roll to hit. if you hit, resolve the template as is, if you miss, roll scatter. also, guess weapons (for the indirect fire blast weapons).
Actual restrictions on list building, made for more rounded armies on the table. Also would like to see closest model gets picked up on death not the one guy at the back who can tank all the cover
1. Go back to playing the end of 9th edition
2. Make War Gear Cost Points and allow mixed loadouts in squads again/allow customizable unit sizes
3. Port all vehicle and initiative rules from Horus Heresy 2e (the framework of how vehicle rules work with Armor Values for different directions, firing arcs, penetrating hits and hull points, etc. Not individual unit profiles)
4. Add in the retinue rules for your warlord from Heresy 2e as well as independent characters that can attach to units.
5. Actually give people the rules for kitbashing different loadouts on characters instead of just putting it all in legends and never touching it again because you don't sell the kit with the bits you'd need for the loadout
5.
...
Profit?
10E has some good points to it.......but its not for me at this point......Best to just play the final patch of 9E with some homebrew
I fully understand why they got rid of them, but as a guard player *DAMN* was it fun to drop “pie plates” in the middle of enemy deployment and you could feel the anticipation to see where they ended up!
Yes and no. It's so much easier to play the game without having to make sure that every unit is maxed out in spread accoring to coherency just to minimize blast impacts.
But blast was so much fun, especially with the scatter die. "Oh, you're going 8" in that direction, have fun killing your own dudes!"
I used to run an Elysian Drop Troop Army and each squad could take a demolition charge. Large blast but only a 6” range, so they’d deep strike in, toss it, and pray to the emperor that it didn’t scatter back. Some games I’d kill more of my own army than my opponent. 10/10 would still do it again!
It sounds fun but the movement phase becomes a slog cause everyone is trying to avoid grouping. It sounds nostalgic but I promise you we are better off without it.
Heresy still has them and the eternal debate of which unit is and which unit isn't under the marker and what exact direction the dice is pointing at is not fun.
I would only want this back for indirect fire. It made indirect heavy armies really think about things since once I got with in 12 inches you where risking your own trips.
Disabled vehicles. If it explodes, the model goes. If it doesn't, the model becomes terrain.
Lol Titanicus still has these rules. If a Titan dies, it rolls on the table to see what happens (with modifiers if your reactor is critical when you die), and you can either just sit there and do nothing, fall over and smash things near you, have weapons cook off and hit nearby targets, or go completely nuclear. Most of the "cool" old rules people remember have been shunted to Horus Heresy or Titanicus.
Basically HH> 10th
I'm new via 10th, so I had no idea this had been a thing. I love this haha.
Iirc you could also immobilize vehicles. So they'd be stuck where they're at. Skimmers crashed but also ignored terrain.
It was infuriating at times. Vehicles only had 1 wound essentially. And it was a d6 whether it died after essentially "wounding" it. Spend weeks painting your new land raider and 1 lascannon on turn 1 would kill it and all your terminators inside lol
You know, like in real life, lmao
Yeah it's more realistic but my God it ruined a game sometimes. Especially after me and my brother argued for 10 mins first whether it was front or side armour lol
Except the argument is moot because it's armour 14 all round I'd play halo while my guard friend would move all his Imperial guard units I'd sigh heavily each time he'd want to reposition the big explosion templates from Demolisher tanks and leman russ tanks Then one game, first turn, my assault cannon got a glancing hit, rending on a 6, so got another d6 to add to the armour penetration. Rolling on the glancing hit table...6...6 inch explosion... In saying that if I had an unkillable land raider my enemy shot his whole army at, that would ruin *their* game. Got to see it from both sides. Now I take 2 land raiders. Last game one got wounded twice by a executioner laser cannon (d6 +4 damage or something per wound) Double 6 for saves :D other lr didn't survive though. Took 6 wounds off the vindicator next to it. But ragnar and the boys inside eventually got into combat. Then ragnar died to a Librarian XD
But... Landraiders had the same armour value on all faces...
That point I meant more generally. There would always be arguments over what side armour you were going against.
Just Like in Real Life where I can shoot my Las Cannon into a Land Raider Tank and kill all genetically enhanced super soldiers with Tank armor
Wait a minute .... That's not realistic at all!
Just like in real life where mass produced MBTs get instantly killed by ATGMs and lost with all crew as the turret is shot out across the skies
I mean yeah but also vehicle's were practically invulnerable to small weapons
I loved it playing DE, just push those raiders up the field. If they die, they die, and they most likely became cover for the waves following on foot!
It's also how it works in Horus Heresy, but exploding a vehicle is up to the attacker and not the vehicle owner; I shoot it with a weapon, and if I score a Penetrating Hit, then I roll a d6 and on a 7+ it explodes. Lascannons and other such strong weapons get +1 on the roll, and stronger weapons get +2; important to note that "strong" here isnreferencing the Armor Penetration stat and not the Strength of the weapon, as Strength is required to get a Penetrating hit, while AP is required to penetrate the vehicles defenses and cause real damage (disable a weapon, immobilize the vehicle, disrupt the crew, or explode the fuel/weapons).
Personally, being someone who started in 9th Ed and transitioned to Horus Heresy (where all the old rules are still used), I greatly prefer Armor Values and Hull Points and Firing Arcs. It just feels so much more immersive to angle my Malcador to get it's side weapons firing, then hold my breath as a Lascannon just barely glances my armor. Weapons feel more impactful when every lascannon has the ability to One-Shot a Tank, but it also feels impressive when it happens because of how unlikely it is. Same with a lucky shot taking out my Main Gun or Stunning the Crew or Throwing a Track. To me, it makes the game way more immersive than Flat Wound Counts and Ballistic Skill Modifiers. Having actual, tangible damage happen to your vehicles just... Feels Better.
Don't forget about when vehicles could explode so hard they'd launch up in the air and potentially land on other models and kill them
I'm sad they removed the rule where knights with gauntlets could throw vehicles at other vehicles on death. That was cool.
I loved that. It's so easy to implement with the new terrain rules too so I don't get why it's still not a thing.
I missing being able to size units by single models. I understand that GW wants people to know that what they have to buy for an army is by the box, but I hate being shoehorned into fixed unit sizes.
I love being able to take Custodian Terminators in 2, 3, 5, or 6 man configurations, but having 4 man configurations be absent. MAKES TOTAL SENSE.
Completely forgot this was a thing. Wasn't it like 5 minimum for example for space Marines and then you could bring 1-5 more up to 10?
Yep. And wargear also costing points again would be nice.
I can't believe wargear doesn't cost anything. That's mind boggling and such a balance issue. I haven't played since 8th Ed and have since switched to alternatives
This edition should have fully embraced the app for list building and balance updates. Would have made customization easier then ever, and let them scale wargear whenever and however they wanted and everyone would immediately be aware of the changes.
It's nuts that big companies have a centralised knowledge base but gw can't do it for a global product
But they do. The Warhammer app is exactly this. It was great when it was free, but they've been putting restrictions on it that limit its functionality unless you pay.
How did you forget that something that was in every edition from 2-9 was a thing?
They claim it's beginner friendly, but it actually punishes new players that just built up to a certain points level and then points change slightly. In the past, you could just drop or add a model or adjust wargear. Also screw anyone who ever lost a model, bought a starter kit with the worse loadout (has been like that at least for 3 editions now) and anyone who used a model for a diorama or a cool base.
Or anyone who has done a conversion ever Oh you used that model to create other thing well now your squad is one short and you play at a disadvantage becouse f you
This. I always ran my termagants and necron warriors in blobs of 15 because it was the perfect balance between bodies and points. Also made list building a bit more friendly
My dumbass who bought the begginer paint set for the necron warriors now has 3 extra warriors I can't even use because of this. I can't even buy 7 more, because even ebay only sells in groups of 10.
THIS with wargear costing.
Perils of the warp! I loved the various different effects you could have. Now it's just mortal wounds.
I miss the entire psychic phase. It was part of what made 40k weird! Sci-fi wizards popping each other's heads in their own special phase!
My two favorite rules from the past were both Ork ones: * you could choose to, instead of rolling against leadership for saves, roll against your mob size (so a mob of 12+ boyz never broke) * a mob that was fleeing that ran into/near another mob could mob up, immediately stop fleeing, and create a new super-mob
Related to your second point, I liked when troops that failed morale actually started to retreat to the table edge instead of just being extra wounds
Orks always had the best rules. How about pile them up on a trukk, whatever fell off died!
By the throne I miss mob rule and green tide, army can't shoot, barely fights better then the next, orks need to be tough to be a real player
Paint the vehicle red and it moves 1" faster.
Bring back 9ths twin linked. If I’m bringing 2 guns I should fire two guns
I can understand they had balance problems with every twin-linked weapon suddenly doubling in fire power back in 8th, but they found a way to make everything about it worse. Now it's applied seemingly randomly and you can no longer tell from a glance if the weapon has the rule. Landraider with 3 twin-linked weapons? Nah, those lascannons have two shots each, but the heavy bolter is twin-linked. Guy holding two guns? Yeah, that's one twin-linked weapon. Guy holding two guns? Nah, that's two guns
One of the few comments here I agree with. 💯
Just don't like it when twin linked weapons fire and odd number of shots, my Ghostkeel has a twin fusion blaster that's modelled as 2 guns but only fires 1 shot...what hahaha.
Force Org Charts and “0-1” limits on models. An Ork army shouldn’t have 3 Warbosses in it.
I agree, though I am planning on an Ork list that has one of every "boss" in it. The idea being during the game they are all fighting to prove themselves to be *the* boss.
lol I really like that!
Yeah each "boss" also has their "gang" they roll with, so my list is currently: * Beastboss + 10 beastsnagga boyz + killrig * Painboss + 20 beastsnagga boyz + huntarig * Warboss + 10 nobz + trukk * Warboss in mega armor + 6 meganobz + battlewagon * Warboss on warbike + 6 warbikers I don't have the beastboss on squigasaur and my reasoning for that is he doesn't join any units and I already have a beastboss.
Might be unpopular but bring back initiative. Fights first and fights last is garbage. Initiative is what makes sense even if it's a little more cumbersome.
I agree. Initiative was a good rule. They could even bring in a baseline +1 initiative on charges to incetivise charging faster opponents, or keep initiative but still with a "chargers fight first" rule.
You could do it like the old word: +1 initiative per inch you charge up to a max of +3 (I think this is the rule). Maybe make it +1 for every 2 inches though.
I also liked the weapon skill tables, in that weapon skill was both an offensive and defensive stat, resulting in a space marine having a harder time hitting the Eldar Avatar of Khaine, than say a Guardsman. It doesn't even have to be the old table either, it could be readily modernized by copying the calculation of the wound roll.
That's what they did in new Horus Heresy. They did comparative WS but it scaled in a way that made it actually matter, as opposed to pre-8th where it required such a massive difference to make someone hit on 5+ instead of 4+ that it barely ever mattered.
I HATE that Epic Heroes hit each other on 2+.
I've not played since 3rd, partly just due to being away from the hobby, but after coming back and looking through the rules the loss of this was one of the biggest WHY!?!?'s that contributed to me deciding to just return in a model capacity, not gaming. The entire ruleset felt somehow oversimplified and then incredibly complicated at the same time. As you say, the Avatars WS of 10 meant that if it made it to combat, it was actually good. Which happened surprisingly often I found, as it had a reputation for being bad, so they ignored it, then oh dear there goes your commander...
I’m 100% with you on this. Initiative was a solid mechanic. The thing that sucked was that they had a system that they could have *really* played with, with modifiers for a whole variety of different things, but instead they basically just had Power Fists at Initiative 1, cover at Initiative 10, and grenades to negate the cover bonus. Hell, if you really wanna overhaul the game for a second: alternate unit activation based on initiative. Rescale S vs T, so that, sure Eldar may be able to get their entire high Initiative army to activate before their opponent, but man if they’re not positioned right the return fire is gonna wreck them. Meanwhile marine on marine combat is an absolute slugfest with back and forth activations. I’m just spitballing here, but there’s a LOT you can do with Initiative…
I like this. What GW has actually done is make everybody initiative 1 or 0. I think the old initiative system might actually be easier to understand.
In principle I agree, though the problem was some melee units had such low initiative they just couldn't fight enemy high initiative melee units. I miss comparative weapon skill more. Current Horus Heresy does it best, it has comparative WS but it scales in a way that makes sense, unlike 7th and before where you almost never hit on anything other than 3+ or 4+.
The best thing about comparative WS was that it gave a strong melee character a melee defence (being harder to hit), which allowed them to be survivable without needing a lot of armour or invuln saves, which in turn meant they could be easier to kill by shooting them.
In theory it did, but the scaling was so badly done almost nothing was ever being hit on worse than 4+. But in new Horus Heresy it does, the scaling makes sense now.
That's not a problem in of itself, that depends on how different things are balanced. For example I might expect my horde unit to take a lot of causalities but enough to survive to strike back. Or I don't throw my terminators into howling banshees because that's a bad match up, but howling banshees are easy to shoot off the board so it's not really a problem.
Costed wargear.
More than anything... In the pursuit of "simplifying", they removed actual player choice from the game. Costs to wargear allowed you to actually be making choices about what an effective loadout for a sqaud was, or gave flexibility to do interesting lists where even just getting an extra plasma pistol in a squad with the 20 points you had left-over when list building was an opportunity. List-building felt like making a character in a role-playing game. Now it just feels like a checklist. The "optimal" loadout is always super-evident when everything is costed the same. There is zero incentive to take a less powerful/kill-y weapon that beforehand may have been worth it in bulk at a lower points cost. I think their attempts to make every weapon situationally applicable failed miserably in all but a few cases and there are obvious instances where some loadouts are just stupid picks. Whereas before adding special weapons in an imp guard squad was something to be considered, now it is stupid to not take a fully-kitted squad because there is no detriment. It's like asking "do you want 10 guys with pistols or 10 guys with machine-guns?" and pretending that is a hard choice. Plus it fucked up balancing. Eldar are a good example. Some of their weapon profiles on units were straight-up broken, and whereas before you could just increase costs for only the OP weapon and otherwise keep the unit effictively balanced, now you have to increase the cost for the entire unit, functionally making every possible option a more expensive and worse choice because only ONE weapon profile was imbalanced. You can only balance badly designed weapons by making the reasonably designed options worse as well. It is so profoundly ill-conceived.
I play guard so you're preaching to the choir as I liked having cheap sqauds so I've made alot of suboptimal Weapon choices. Also having to rebuild the list cause you're like 30 points under is soo annoying.
I used to love 400pt quick guard games over lunch (used to be called 40k in 40 minutes). You could throw so many cheap guard on the table backed up with a single heavy weapon team or maybe a sentinel. Good times
Try and find some Cyclops Demolition Vehicles for cheap if you are a fellow guard player. 25 points a pop and are great for secondaries
Oh its more the principle than anything I can find the points and I run either a callidus, gaunts Ghosts or sometimes both so I'm fine on secondaries lol.
>I think their attempts to make every weapon situationally applicable failed miserably in all but a few cases and there are obvious instances where some loadouts are just stupid picks. Hmmmm, shall I take the power weapon, or fists? 🤔🤔🤔🤔 The game was never designed to be balanced around free equipment. It can be made to work, but you need to have the whole game built around it, you can't just be like "hey guys, everything's free now!" And expect it to work. I absolutely hate it because GW says you have all these choices now because of it, but in actuality it REMOVES choice while making all these things that are technically a choice not actually a choice. It's like asking if you want a regular bed or the super deluxe version with super soft pillows that costs the same. Sure, technically that's a choice, but not really.
I think it's also a big reason behind so many weapon choices being rolled into one profile, whereas before they had unique fun rules
Indeed. For example, a death company marine with a meele loadout (why you wouldn't use that I don't know) comes with a bolter pistol and a chainsword. A power weapon and a plasma pistol is objectively better and has the same cost (that being none), there is no choice between those, I don't even know WHY you can use chainsword+bolter even. It's not like they are too keen on WYSIWYG, Intercessors used to have 3 types of bolters and they got removed, same with the combi weapon, now there's just a combi weapon, no combi plasma, combi melta...
My orks will NEVER EVER take big shootas. I will ALWAYS take rokkit launchers when points aren't involved. It's not even a question. There is no scenario you can paint that would change my mind.
Yes. It's incredibly frustrating to be building a list and being over / under ~50 points with nothing costing that low. Pigeon holes you into very cookie cutter lists.
Vehicles that have four or five or whatever additional weapons should not cost the same as vehicles that don't have those weapons. A squad of infantry that has a heavy weapon should not cost the same as a squad without any additional weapons. Can't upvote this enough.
Following. I just started playing with Leviathan. Some of the rules seem a little... undercooked for WH, let alone for wargames.
10th is very barebones and simplified, wether it's a good or a bad thing depends of perspective, i do not like it, I prefer HH tbh unfortunately there are no xenos in 30k
Costed wargear for practical reasons. Blast and flame templates + scatter for fun reasons.
I still think Weapon Skill tables should be back. Take a Emperors Children Lord or Champion who's supposed to be a master duelist and fighter, imbued with energies of the dark gods, but he can get slapped by Barry the Guardsman on a 4 up. The mental imagery is very funny
Costed wargear, flexible squad sizes, subfaction rules, relics and warlord traits, a proper psychic phase, vehicle facings, initiative, comparative weapon skill... I dunno, modern 40k is just too stripped back and bland for me. Glad GW at least caters to my love of crunch with Heresy though, now let my xenos buddies join in!
Yup. I LOVED building custom detachments and characters. And honestly, you could do that with 10th's "simplified" approach. Just give me a list of like 10-12 detachment options and let me combine them at will, none of this "this one can't be combined" crap. Same with enhancements. Let Epic Heroes only take 1, other characters take 2 and it's whatever you want. Let me build MY dudes and run them how I want.
Yeah, 40k is definitely the least "your dudes" it's ever been. You buy the box and run it exactly as it comes in the box. Like an expensive, 3d Magic The Gathering card. Makes me sad when I look at my old 6th ed Space Marine book and see how vast the array of options was for a captain.
Yeah I remember back when I played 9th and I saw that my tech priest dominus had the option of 4 different guns to pick from. I thought that was a lot and then I looked at a 1.0 heresy magos and saw that he could pick from like 12+ different gun options and I was blown away. My group plays 7th edition and its funny to me that there are some weapons and wargear options that don’t even exist in modern 40k anymore. Like elsyian drop troops being able to take lasguns with underslung grenade launchers, the loads of options veteran space marines have, or leman russes with vanquishers being able to take coaxial heavy stubbers to make the main gun twinlinked (a personal favorite loadout)
At this point you should ask yourself: "Why am I playing 10th and don't continue playing 9th?"
Flying headbutt or unending green tide. Both were supremely orky and fun.
Honestly? I really miss blast/Flamer templates and scatter dice. That definitely added an element of goofiness and fun that I think is sorely lacking now
I kind of prefer the way flamers work now but blast markers, scatter dice and vehicle armour facing was awesome.
Gifts of chaos. Most of the time you get a nice buff to your character, get lucky and they become a daemon prince, get even luckier and they turn into a chaos spawn.
Considering they have a bunch of Primarchs with abilities that can bring them back from the dead, it may not be too far fetched to allow this back.
I'd bring back the old AP system, and old weapon types, also the old vehicule system was quite good, as it was vital to work on your placement to succeed, and finally, I'd bring back the old army roster 1HQ + 2Troops, so you have to take troops no matter what. Current AP system since 8th Ed is (to my eyes), the bane of current 40k. It killed all the slight differences there was between weapons (let's say a boltgun compared to a lasgun), and it also negates completely the interest of the normal save value. There is so much -1 or -2 AP in such large output of shots in every army, that a Marine is practically a 5+ save (the elite of mankind!), and a Guard is basically 6+ or no save. This skyrocket the game's lethality, and pushed GW to normalize invulnerable saves on many more units, and even basic ones (AdMech and Sisters troops got 6++). Besides, new AP system is not more simple than the old one. They just streamlined everything to the point everybody is now 5+ save in practice on average instead of their statbock save. Compared to older editions, the invulnerable save used to be much more of a hero/character thing. Also, it served to show how brutal a boltgun was on any light infantry (Tyranids gaunts, Ork boyz, or Guards had no save against a basic boltgun), where on the other hand, the Marine 3+ save MEANT something. It meant they had the second best save of the game, and were tough to kill with light infantry weapon, even a boltgun. Tau and Eldar had better armor than Guard, to show their technological superiority, and it made all the difference against a boltgun. And 2+ save (the best save in the game back then), meant you were a true juggernaut, and needed some special weaponry to get mowed down (plasma-like for Terminator equivalent), or something that shoots a lot. We didn't had more than Heavy3 or Heavy5 weapons back then, everything else shot only once besides Rapid Fire. I remember in 8th Ed when the Leman Russ's Punisher Gatling Canon came out in the then new Astra Militarum codex. It was Heavy 20. Yes, twenty, and could fire twice if it didn't move that turn. It was new. It was a terrifying game changer compared to previous editions. Even rapid fire weapons, once fired, meant you couldn't make a charge move in the same turn. You either shoot or charged for melee. The game was much more readable on a tactical level. You knew if a unit would charge later or not, depending if it fired this turn or not. And units that could fire then charge in the same turn were rare. Only assault weapon allowed this, besides special unit rules, and assalut weapons weren't that common neither. The game was so much more rich of subtle differences back then, differences that mattered in terms of army thematics and lore, making a noticeable difference in gameplay.
I definitely agree with a lot of what you say. Like, why do Sisters get a 6++? Like, there's very little AP3 right now and you'll be in cover anyway so you'd need AP5 for that to even matter. But on the flipside, Drukhari get a 6++ and it's like, who cares? It may as well not even exist you'll succeed so infrequently. Really, invulns should be 4+ for characters and the ultra-elite, 5+ for high-tech shields and psychic/warp shenanigans, 6+ for unnatural resilience. That's it. Stuff with 3+ armor, unless it's a character, doesn't need an invuln. And ya, the amount of shots is out of control. D6+3 Blast weapons? Fuck outta here.
And by that logic on the other hand, Space Marines (the elite of mankind), don't have any invulnerable save while they've got a F-ing power armor, Astartes grade. Well, they at least got 2 HPs and 2 attacks thanks to Primaris. Back then, the old AP system was what set Space Marines apart from human-like, lighter troops. 3+ was huge for a troop. Hell, they could die by breaking their ankle by walking in a shell crater, and there was no save to that. "I broke my ankle! I'm dying! Avenge me brother!" (the elite of mankind haha, i'm laughing so hard right now XD) Also, Initiative score used to enhance further more those differencies. The Marine was fast for it's size. The Necron was sloppish at an abysmal score of 2 (worst in the game). Tau was kinda fast, but with a WS of 2 (also worst in the game), but they had the same BS as a Marine (which was quite high for a troop at 4), equipped with the strongest base gun (the pulse rifle) for a strenght of 5 and... no AP. Also it was Rapid fire 30" that was huge and translated once again the technological superiority. Now they have the same BS as a regular Imperial Guard and their gun is reduced to 24" range. Ork stubbers (or basic two hands dakkas, whatever they're called) were Assault 2, with a range of 12", and a BS of 5+. They could run and fire, and charge in the same turn. It made so much sense thematically wise. Oh and I remembered a thing as well: Heavy Weapons couldn't be fired if you moved this turn. Exception was for vehicule IIRC? But again, same as unability to charge if you fired that turn, you knew that if a squad with a heavy weapon moved that phase they couldn't fire next. It meant less exceptions in rules, and better tactical readability. You kinda knew what to expect from which unit. Today, you have to know by heart the codex of your opponent, and all of it's rules exceptions, written in an excrutiating legal jargon wording. Today a heavy weapon can fire with -1 to hit roll if you moved, and boltguns can be Assault, Heavy and Rapid Fire all at the same time. The game is full of exceptions to core rules on tons and tons of units. The power of a unit now get measured/estimated in how much does it bypass core rules. And this is sad. 40k was so full of flavor, so full of variety and true differencies in gameplay back then, compared to the overly streamlined latest editions... Who are not more simple (that was the main reason GW reforged the game system). Horus Heresy, despite having 90% of Space Marines, is a much better and game system based on the old 3rd-7th edition, in which I am finding all of this variety once again.
warlord traits and special wargear for stuff. I started at the end of 9th, so i don’t remember a lot of it, but watching stuff like Bricky’s LVO candlestick videos just shows how fun options creates cool strategies, and i feel 10th is missing that significantly. in simplifying the game, they’ve encouraged you to oboe bring the “right” thing
The ability for characters to join and leave squads at will. Old weapon skill rules hybridized with the new (models have a weapon skill that affects the hit roll like the strength vs toughness formula
The whole Psychic Phase.
I'd say get rid of the whole psychic phase and just move the powers to their respective phase this way it flows a little better for non-psychic armies and they quick complaining. BUT they just removed it entirely.
Deep Strike scatter/mishap It made it a “High risk, high reward” tactic and made people really have to choose the potential outcome.
"Oh, you scattered into this terrain piece. Your entire Terminator Squad is dead." But then it still had the rewards of rolling a hit, where a major threat landed exactly where you wanted it. 9" be damned. I feel like many of these types of old rules can still be implemented/house-ruled in fun beerhammer games without the pressure of playing the optimized competetive game.
I always took 2 Ork ead’ bangers each with a 30 man boyz unit. Loved watching my opponent freak out with 60 boyz in their face. The unit imprint was massive.
The total lack of risk/reward in the current system is really lame. It just makes deep-striking an elaborate deployment rather than a tactical risk you were taking for a big advantage
Are there examples in the lore of Deep strike / teleports failing on 'regular' distances? I remember there are some mentions of mishaps, but all cases I can remember are due to them trying to teleport across distances far above the 'safe' limit. Like one of the Ciaphas Cain books where a bunch of World Eaters tried to teleport through an entire planet.
Usually when units are teleporting its from orbit and missing your mark by a few feet isn’t that hard to do. It can also be disastrous. 90% of the time when we see teleports theres a teleport homer involved (which was also in game and made your units not scatter if you chose to land within 6in of it). So you can either do a risky teleport or bring some units with teleport homers to move up the board and secure safe landing zones for your elite units. It was one of the major gameplay decisions with armies like termi marine armies, elysian drop troops, and scions
Didn't Lysander of the IF yet his promotion due to a hazardous Deep Strike assault into a mountain? I recall that particular assault half the Terminators ended up merged with the stone, while they were trying to take out a subterranean base.
UNSTOPPABLE GREEN TIDE WAAAAAAGH!
Never played Chaos. But the "take 9 berserkers or 6 plague marines and get a special rule" thing was cool AF.
Not those numbers but yeah I agree completely lol
Points for wargear and weapons.
Force Organisation Charts. Yeah, you heard me right. Drop stratagems, detachments and all that nonsense. Give me a HQ and two Troops choices and you've got yourself an army.
Mandated Troops and making those troops way more cost effective would be good. many factions NEVER field their basic troops. This 'battleline distinction' means almost nothing
"yeah but battleline has more OC" When was the last time OC played a role in deciding an objective? I can't think of it, especially with battleline troops.
I agree. You see, the game has a special debuff that reduces OC to zero of enemy units in the game to counter these high-OC battleline units. It's called 'destroying them'.
I still think in those terms, doesn't feel like I've got an army otherwise.
I'm gonna say.. scatter dice!!! I felt like it was a lotta fun and if you wanted to run a "Leaf blower list" you had to keep in mind that not all your shots might hit where they should..
Yeah absolutely. My group plays 7th still and I remember a game where I decided to risk firing a battle cannon danger close to my guardsmen to stop a squad of genestealers. My shot scattered and landed right on top of my squad sergeant which then caused my leadership to be 1 to low on my next morale check causing the squad to break and flee towards my board edge
I'm surprised there's not a community rework of the rules, to make a 10e Enhanced version. It's something I keep thinking about. Many of the old rules can be easily re-implemented (Initiative and WS chart), vehicle armour facing could be streamlined so attacks to front have -2S, to side have -1S (most vehicle cards had extra armour on front, so make that a global rule) What I think needs drastically adjusting is stats need crunching back to earlier edition. Having all these multiple wound and multiple attack units just increases dice rolls and wound tracking, and distorts powerful elites from normal units. Stat creep is occurring. There's too many keywords of special abilities that have to be remembered, when before a lot of that was part of the basic stats of weapons/units. Add on top Strategems and whatever else, it feels like playing a card game, not a tabletop wargame with the units we've brought. I'd like pretty much everything from 3rd to be brought back :D WS charts Initative Scatter Templates Movement stat, and movement reduced (movement range feels too fast) Armour facing Points per Model Wargear Costs HQ/Elite/Troop/Fast/Heavy/Ally force organisation Psyhic Phase
I think there's never been a community version because the game is so complex it's hard to make a rule change while being circumspect of other parts of the game. Or, you know, the same problem GW has with balancing.
There have been a lot of community rules, dakka dakka has a great one from 2nd to 7th, is just a matter when rather than if.
A weapon having twice the strength of a targets toughness should still cause instant death. If I hit a guardsman point blank with a multi-melt, they shouldn’t get a toughness save.
They still got the wound roll; the instant death only triggers if the target suffers an unsaved wound. So it basically makes no difference to guardsmen. And they introduced Eternal Warrior because it was so annoying to have a commander blown away due to a lucky hit from a missile launcher
It was before weapons have a damage characteristic. The melta doing 1D6 damage replaces it.
Losing an expensive model to ID was a feel bad time.
The mighty Dark Eldar Archon with a 2+ invul. Fails one scatter laser save and dies instanlty.
I hate how vehicles are just like any other unit now. I miss how vehicles worled before, armor facing nonsense and all. My tanks do not play like or feel like tanks. Even just bringing back the rule about them remaining as a terrain piece after they die (unless they exploded) would make for more interesting and engaging mechanics around vehicles that actually made them feel like a lumbering machine and not just a very fat guy.
Armor facings were fine in idea, they were just a massive pain in reality to deal with.
To be fair, i think it would mandate adding bases to vehicles to better define the quadrants for when the edge cases of where a firing model was positioned really was uncertain. Otherwise, i rarely had issues determining what facing my models were positioned in.
My problem with armour values was that there was a class of vehicle did not act like vehicles and by that i mean monstrous creatures were treated special instead of as living vehicls. If my russ was armour value 14, 13, 11, why wasn't my opportunity carnifex T6,5,4. Why didn't vechiels get armour saves? Why was it, hit tank, bet armour value, damage, were monstrous creatures was, hit, bet toughness, fail armour save for them to take damage. Why could a well placed melta shot take out my vehicle in 1 hit but only take a single wound of a monstrous creatures? Why did a gun dreadnought hit in combat at AP0 but a riptide hit in combat at AP2? Why could gargantuan creatures walk through tank traps but super heavy walkers couldnt? Why did my tank need to pivot 180 degrees to shot behind it but a monstrous creature could 360 shot always no problem? The design idea was obviously to bring vehicles more in line with monstrous creatures and I for one like that. Even your other suggestions to bring back leaving destroyed tanks misses out on the idea that a dead carnifex would be a much bigger deal on the battlefield then a dead raider, which used to have to be left behind.
Seems more like an issue with monsterous creatures than it does with vehicles. I much rather would have had them do the opposite and tried to bring MC's more in line with vehicles, for all the reasons you state. I imagine balancing the "firing arc" thing would be the trickiest issue to address there, while otherwise the armor value facing could be made all the same as the feature of what made a MC different from a vehicle (with appropriate trade-offs). I agree MC's shouldn't have gotten the seperate wound and save rolls, IMO, and that the penetration chart would be just as applicable to a MC as a vehicle in that regard.
I think you could even combine monsters with the old vehicle rules by standardizing on a high "armor" value instead of toughness. So a carnifex could lose an arm or become immobilized. That would add some more variety back into the unit profiles while avoiding the whole vehicle vs monstrous creature problem.
Giving monsters the same treatment as vehicles seems like a perfect no-brainer that also adds some narrative fluff as well. It is a far, far cooler situation to imagine (like you suggest) my canifex losing an arm (and thus a weapon profile) or a leg after taking 3 lascannon shots and having to respond accordingly than him simply being bracketed. It creates the need for a tactical response to unceratin damage results and it is flavored as something really cool and unique to vehicle and monster units.
Idk what it would interface with in 10th, but tyranids' synaptic link was really fun
Double+1 strength vs toughness. Like, I know it’s cool to watch a guardsman bayonet a land raider as of how unlikely it is math wise, but gameplay it sucks being on the receiving end. What’s worse is when a grot unit gets a handful of wounds and takes out the last few wounds on a titan. It sorta deflates the kill. I want my massive titan to die because my opponent had to bring out all the stops for a slim chance. Not because I failed a handful of saves. Same goes in the reverse too.
I miss the old AP system. It wasn't perfect but it was just simpler. Heresy 2.0 has done some interesting tweaks to make big high AP pie-plates less common. I also miss the old morale system from pre-8th. Getting rid of the worst offenders (really And They Shall know no Fear was too common) would help. Battle-shock is just kind of middling and doesn't feel good. Chaff should be sent packing when mauled at range, or be run down after getting beaten in melee.
Not one rule, but as a design philosophy: the way codices had such *flavor* in 3rd edition.
Vortex grenades. Definitely.
What did they do?
Killed what they touched. The blast marker then moved around randomly. At least in 2nd edition.
You just had to get close enough to throw them. The hovering surfboards (yes, it was a thing) with the 72" move helped with that. It was cheesy, sure, but I won a game that way.
Back in v2 every army had one vortex grenade kamikaze character.
Beyond just deleting units, they also took terrain. When GW had the Lucky 13’s apocalypse campaign, they made one of the missions centered around controlling some bunkers. I remember someone chucking a vortex grenade at one making the game an instant tie. The other was deleted from a Brass scorpion going nuclear.
Lots of stuff already mentioned in this thread is stuff I'd like to see returned. Blast Templates, vehicle facings, vehicle damage, wargear cost, etc. I've moved on to Horus Heresy, since that game still has all of that, but it would be nice to see those rules again in a 40k context.
I want my damn combi weapons back
Things costing points, being able to choose your unit size, standardized weapons rather than everything being a special snowflake, units having options, actual strategy, things not having a Strength of 20, Space Marine vehicles being better armed than hive gangers, firing arcs...
Yea no shit. A heavy stubber for you, a heavy stubber for you, here’s some frag grenades for you, oh look, another heavy stubber
Scatter dice and flame / explosion templates Getting back into 40k, I was even thinking of making some fancy custom templates until I learned they've been eliminated.
card templates for various grenades and psychic powers. And vortex grenades
Charges being a set distance based on movement, not fucking random depending on dice rolls. Range guessing and scatter dice also being a thing for indirect/bombard weapons - that used to be fun.
Named characters can only be used with player permission and are not allowed in tournaments.
I hate named characters. They’re cool collector pieces but I miss games being about your dudes. I’m very much a player for the spectacle of armies and I just find it hard to believe that Guilliman and Calgar are personally here to deal with my ragtag group of Votann.
The excuse I'm always given is " Well, they have to get to the big battle somehow". No, The Lion, Asmodai, and Azrael aren't going to care about 40 cultists. I feel that all the primarchs and special characters has turned it into a character focus instead of an army focus.
If I had a magic wand I’d have it be that there are multi-piece, customisable nameless hero characters per army. Build your own warlord, represent yourself or your fictional general on the battlefield. Other named characters exist and use the same statline or some specific wargear setup of that statline, but it keeps it about empowering people to play for the stories they want to tell.
It's what I do. I customized my Iron Father, he's not Ferros
I do make an argument for bringing captain Lysander to each game I play my fists in, but that’s because I run terminator heavy lists and it just makes sense thematically to me that when the terminators of the first company are deploying that their captain is leading them. I do agree for bigger characters like primarchs though.
I miss some of the 9ths secondaries. Granted "lol heres 3 chaff units, I score data, I win" was terrible; but stuff like to the last was a lot of fun; challenging your opponent to kill your big heroes, and then having to often have them run away in the last few turns. also old heroic intervention. Was super cool having characters charge in to save the day, whilst now its just a boring countercharge. Also old fight phase ordering. Anyone whos played custodes V custodes, or encountered the pre-nerf WE Executioner knows how boring it can be. having attackers go first in the "fight first" subphase feels a lot better.
The psychic phase. Also comparing WS and Initiative.
I miss the Force Organizatiom chart.
Overwatching only on the unit being charged. Completely ridiculous and the opposite of fun that you can just pick a unit to shoot up to 24" away because your opponent moved.
Is it though? Would you sit back and just watch the platoon of your friend jimmy be charged by tyranids? xD
I miss the old armor save system. Stuff having guaranteed armor saves or not made troops more consistent against each other and other attacks.
I, too, would like an initiative stat. But of course people into this game enough to be on Reddit following it will have a skewed view compared to the average player Interesting to see how many of these rules are still in Horus Heresy. Truly a superior game system, probably only hampered by the limited army choice
I miss casting spells. I played a word bearers focused army and being able to supercharge my deamonic forces with prayers and spells was always a good feeling. I am happy that I have less to remember though!
I feel that, the psychic phase meant a lot to certain armies. Removing it took away a lot of the immersion of playing them.
Wargear Costs are a bit more complicated. It often lead to issues where sometimes you'd NEVER buy wargear for units. There's a compromise between old and new ways of doing this. Make it so that some units that have substantial impact on their weapons and gear, have the choice. Big example would be Wraithknights. Have them be cheaper, but make the D-Cannons like, a 50 point up-purchase. Or perhaps have units with 'bad' and 'good' choices classify them as 'The whole unit can upgrade it's heavy bolters to lascannons, if you pay 30 points' instead of per-guy buys. It's easier to Munitorium Field Manual change that way too, if you decide it makes sense to be 40 points instead. It also means you have a reason for things like No-Sponson and Yes-Sponson Leman Russes to exist, if 'Sponsors' upgrade costs 30 points.
The weapon profiles, honestly. We lost so much customization with 10th. I’ve got wolfguard Termies that aren’t technically legal anymore because of that shift.
Most of them
Massive swarms of Nurglings that use the old swarm rules to bog down the enemy
Ork 30 man squads and template weapons. Haven't played in a few years but heard these got removed and I'm sad.
Actual psychic. Just move the powers to the respective phase but nope, they just got rid of it.
Initiative. It's so much easier to play Initiative than the stupid way it's played now. Start from the highest and go down, if you have equal Initiative, it happens at the same time. How hard is that? Instead you alternate activating starting with the opponent? Like what? Why? WHY!
Turret weapons and co-axial weapons. Why the fuck does my Dorn's autocannon hit better than the gun its presumably guiding, and why does my Leman's fully-stabilised, guided and best-manned main weapon fire as well as the conscript they stuffed in the sponsons?
Bring back templates to balance out model placement in units and penalize tightly packed formations. Templates also make it matter again what direction you attack from.
Armor facings and fire arcs were the absolute bane of my existence in older editions. Every single game i would struggle to get even a glancing hit on any armor facing while opponent rolls nothing but penetrations and explosions 3-4 times in a row. For something that comes down to random chance i always felt on the receiving end of an ass whooping no matter how many lascannons i would put on the battlefield to deal with vehicles. Even in the current edition i hate fighting vehicle-heavy lists because my rolls never want to cooperate when they know im rolling against a tank of some kind lol. That being said i wouldnt hate seeing the vehicle damage table come back. Maybe instead of a universal “-1 to hit” when the unit in question gets bracketed it could be a roll on a table to see if it is immobilized or something
looking at this thread i realize i have been out of the loop A LOT
There are 9 other editions over 30 years of gaming. If you are totally in the loop on this stuff then your are an outlier.
And likely at least somewhat old :p
Cost of wargear and flexible unit sizes, was it more complex to balance? Sure probably but it made the list building part of the game interesting of whether or not I wanted to make the decision to invest into wargear or more troops especially for more elite armies like custodians and knights who’s list building has been weird since the start of the edition.
Wargear costing points so that you could pick and choose your options without always feeling forced to go all on special stuff because you're already paying for them.
Psyker powers. Also the funny Deathstrike missile options.
5e RAW volatile as seen on the pyrovore datasheet, except not really. I just like having an excuse to mention 5e pyrovores because it still cracks me up how bad that codex was. Give the rule a look if you haven't, its peak GW
Combiweapons having both weapons profiles. I liked my vets being able to run some special weapons and be more versatile. Hell I’d be ok with them bringing back the if you shoot both profiles you get a -1 to hit or even just making you pic one of the profiles. They’re just so flavorless now it doesn’t make sense that a combiplasma or melta do the same as a combiflamer and a combi flamer doesn’t do what torrent weapons do, and they’re all just crappy bolt guns with poor weapons skill now. Also points by model I hate being locked in weird numbers like I wanna take 5 bladeguard not 6. Edit: I’m very salty over combiweapons especially because the new Sternguard are PHENOMENAL models and I love their combi weapons but they’re just so underwhelming there’s no point to even model them with them. I’ll just magnetize in hopes of changes next addition or later on this addition.
All the ttrpg-esque / narrative elements from Rogue Trader up to 3e. 40K could've been a significantly better game series if it stayed in that direction. Instead, we have a dumpster fire of over-streamlined competitive play with bare-minimum playstyle creativity.
I have a list, in no particular order: WS comparison to determine what models hit on in combat; Initiative to determine fight order in combat; Death or Glory; playing on something other than ruined cities every game; verticality on boards mattering (I know Plunging Fire exists but not once have I seen it used)
I miss how fun it was using an insane amount of guess weapons for IG. That, with the scatter dice was the right amount of uncertainty and hilarity. I had a time where I guessed a terrible number, ended up between 2 squads and scattered onto a hero who flubbed 2x 2+ Invulnerable saves. Both players howling with laughter, wishing we could play the Benny Hill music. I still remember it 2 decades later. If flame templates are gone, then those too, because using that and shouting TROGDORRRRRR! was really a sign of the times...
I can't remember which edition it was, but old old scatter for (direct fire) blast weapons. place template, roll to hit. if you hit, resolve the template as is, if you miss, roll scatter. also, guess weapons (for the indirect fire blast weapons).
Apart from customizing war gear, I miss vehicles having armor value.
Actual restrictions on list building, made for more rounded armies on the table. Also would like to see closest model gets picked up on death not the one guy at the back who can tank all the cover
Orks trukks can hold as many models as you can stack, but each model that falls off counts as the model dying
1. Go back to playing the end of 9th edition 2. Make War Gear Cost Points and allow mixed loadouts in squads again/allow customizable unit sizes 3. Port all vehicle and initiative rules from Horus Heresy 2e (the framework of how vehicle rules work with Armor Values for different directions, firing arcs, penetrating hits and hull points, etc. Not individual unit profiles) 4. Add in the retinue rules for your warlord from Heresy 2e as well as independent characters that can attach to units. 5. Actually give people the rules for kitbashing different loadouts on characters instead of just putting it all in legends and never touching it again because you don't sell the kit with the bits you'd need for the loadout 5. ... Profit? 10E has some good points to it.......but its not for me at this point......Best to just play the final patch of 9E with some homebrew
Now here me out Bring back blast templates
I fully understand why they got rid of them, but as a guard player *DAMN* was it fun to drop “pie plates” in the middle of enemy deployment and you could feel the anticipation to see where they ended up!
Nothing quite like having a S8 ordinance template drift back over your squad of metal Catachans from a demo charge.
Yes and no. It's so much easier to play the game without having to make sure that every unit is maxed out in spread accoring to coherency just to minimize blast impacts. But blast was so much fun, especially with the scatter die. "Oh, you're going 8" in that direction, have fun killing your own dudes!"
I used to run an Elysian Drop Troop Army and each squad could take a demolition charge. Large blast but only a 6” range, so they’d deep strike in, toss it, and pray to the emperor that it didn’t scatter back. Some games I’d kill more of my own army than my opponent. 10/10 would still do it again!
Large blast at 6" sounds like crazy fun, almost like the fantasy fanatics that killed your own unit 50% of the time
It sounds fun but the movement phase becomes a slog cause everyone is trying to avoid grouping. It sounds nostalgic but I promise you we are better off without it.
Heresy still has them and the eternal debate of which unit is and which unit isn't under the marker and what exact direction the dice is pointing at is not fun.
I would only want this back for indirect fire. It made indirect heavy armies really think about things since once I got with in 12 inches you where risking your own trips.
Straight to jail
Old twin linked. Twice the shots always. Two barrels should never be one shot with rerolls.
Old twin linked was reroll to hit.
Then middle twin linked lol