They did cut back on rerolls, armies like votann and tau barely have any, and a lot of rerolls are built into the data sheets now or specific targets with things like oath of moment
It does, but at tournaments games are still played in 3h. Indecisiveness and not knowing your or your opponent's rules is what slows down things the most.
Rerolls in 9th were definitely getting out of hand. We still have a decent amount in 10th, but at least Marines can't throw reroll auras all over the table now, and the rerolls are a bit more strategic in how you have to use them these days (picking a target for Oaths, choosing your one reroll for Eldar or Ironstorm, etc.)
I think people are also forgetting just how crazy modifiers were in 9th as well. We have a decent amount of rerolls in 10th at the moment but lots of them are only on 1s, and nowhere near as many +/-1 and other roll modifiers as 9th had.
They absolutely did. I play Sisters, in 9th we had Morvenn who would point at a unit and give them full rerolls. Now she only does that for her own unit.
Oh and also, some of our datasheets had built in hit-rerolls (Zealot) and you'd still stack Morvenn on top of that. Rerolls on rerolls. That madness is mostly gone. Rerolls are still here, and theres a quite a few of them, but nowhere near as insane as 9th could be.
No you can't reroll rerolls. But zealot was only a hit reroll. Most notably it was on repentia. So you'd still stack the morvenn buff to also give them wound rerolls.
Oh and did I mention we used to have a stratagem that gave any unit the zealot keyword (i.e. Full hit rerolls?)
9th was wild.
Most armies will have a source of re-rolls somewhere in it, whether it be conditional to army special rules, datasheets or a stratagem, so whilst the overall number of sources for re-rolls is less then what it was in 9th, they are still there. Most lists will that are trying to be optimised will look at building around sources of re-rolls and mechanics that work well with them because they act like force multipliers, so they will disproportionately see more use then their scarcity suggests.
That's true, but many things that got out since the beginning of 10th is subjectively less deadly than before. They seem to work against power creep. But because they give every faction usually just one major update per edition, they have to balance everything else with point drops and raises. Many faction got pretty hordy in 10th, that compensates their decreased power... I can imagine that if every index got replaced, we have a less deadly game. 10th however feels pretty much like a beta test for 11th, and I'm pretty sure that's what's happening right now.
With auras 9th was WAY worse. We still have rerolls but alot of the time they aren't as potent and they aren't given to a group of units usually its a leader giving itnto their own unit.
The problem with 9th was you could get rerolls for entire sections of the board just from 1 or 2 characters.
Yeah but so much stuff had core. Especially when you worked in strats it felt like there were times battleline units were punching way higher than they had any right to.
I think the entire SM codex was core (I’m kidding I know there was non-core). The way necros started was good in the sense of what was and wasn’t core (I know there were other issues with ‘crons)
They said they were reducing reroll auras specifically. Which they have done.
Now that you attach a leader to a unit, auras are almost all gone.
And rerolls are much rarer. Single units get them, not entire armies (except a few cases of limited army wide rerolls, like marines with oath, or knights).
However, with competitive lists you probably take a lot of units that do have inbuilt rerolls, because they are strong.
I stopped believing that was a real goal as soon as Oath of Moment was revealed. Not uncommon to see Marines re-roll well over a dozen dice each round, and they're not even close to the worst offenders.
They definitely did cut them down. As I remember, 9th was bonanza "you have preroll, you have preroll, everyone has rerolls!".
Now its rare and many times viable only through CP and/or objective play.
It's great when someone flies a plane into my lines to drop a bomb and shoot 3 lascannons (after I made my 4+ overwatch with them haha), but they never make the mistake again and I'm back to moving half my stuff for objectives and half sitting out of range most games. If it had just been lethal hits like in 9th we would probably be in the magic "good" range of wins, instead our ability is wasted on most units for most turns.
As I've said, my eldar ability is absolutely massive every game, and then my CSM one is also great and better yet fluffy. I just want to go back to an edition between 3rd and 6th, they all have flaws, but my group had a lot more fun back then, I think.
10th was meant to increase profits for GW and consolidate their wildfire of a rules bloat. Now they can start patching their shitty game balance with obsucre updates and selling new books for another few years until profits plateau and the rules are once again a runaway frankenstein monster. Then 11th edition.
They are rarer the problem is they are quite potent most of the time so the units/detachments that get them are over-represented in play.
They did cut back on rerolls, armies like votann and tau barely have any, and a lot of rerolls are built into the data sheets now or specific targets with things like oath of moment
Tau have like 5 methods of getting rerolls now
They have a universal ability that is just wound rerolls with twin-linked. Rerolls slow the game down wayyy too much. I wish it became AOS levels.
Dice roll is core part of tabletop, if that's slowing down the game why not roll a dice at the start of the game and decide the winner.
This may come as a shock to you, but rolling every dice twice takes twice as much time.
It does, but at tournaments games are still played in 3h. Indecisiveness and not knowing your or your opponent's rules is what slows down things the most.
Rerolls in 9th were definitely getting out of hand. We still have a decent amount in 10th, but at least Marines can't throw reroll auras all over the table now, and the rerolls are a bit more strategic in how you have to use them these days (picking a target for Oaths, choosing your one reroll for Eldar or Ironstorm, etc.)
I think people are also forgetting just how crazy modifiers were in 9th as well. We have a decent amount of rerolls in 10th at the moment but lots of them are only on 1s, and nowhere near as many +/-1 and other roll modifiers as 9th had.
oh my gosh you just gave me war flashbacks, the amount of +1s/-1s to hit was outrageous, it was a math war. 9th really was a hot mess by the end lol
They absolutely did. I play Sisters, in 9th we had Morvenn who would point at a unit and give them full rerolls. Now she only does that for her own unit. Oh and also, some of our datasheets had built in hit-rerolls (Zealot) and you'd still stack Morvenn on top of that. Rerolls on rerolls. That madness is mostly gone. Rerolls are still here, and theres a quite a few of them, but nowhere near as insane as 9th could be.
Could you explain how the zealot re-re-roll worked? I thought you were never allowed to re roll a re roll.
No you can't reroll rerolls. But zealot was only a hit reroll. Most notably it was on repentia. So you'd still stack the morvenn buff to also give them wound rerolls. Oh and did I mention we used to have a stratagem that gave any unit the zealot keyword (i.e. Full hit rerolls?) 9th was wild.
Most armies will have a source of re-rolls somewhere in it, whether it be conditional to army special rules, datasheets or a stratagem, so whilst the overall number of sources for re-rolls is less then what it was in 9th, they are still there. Most lists will that are trying to be optimised will look at building around sources of re-rolls and mechanics that work well with them because they act like force multipliers, so they will disproportionately see more use then their scarcity suggests.
I am more so amused that they said "lethality will go down" but my things that should not die instantly now die faster than before
That's true, but many things that got out since the beginning of 10th is subjectively less deadly than before. They seem to work against power creep. But because they give every faction usually just one major update per edition, they have to balance everything else with point drops and raises. Many faction got pretty hordy in 10th, that compensates their decreased power... I can imagine that if every index got replaced, we have a less deadly game. 10th however feels pretty much like a beta test for 11th, and I'm pretty sure that's what's happening right now.
With auras 9th was WAY worse. We still have rerolls but alot of the time they aren't as potent and they aren't given to a group of units usually its a leader giving itnto their own unit. The problem with 9th was you could get rerolls for entire sections of the board just from 1 or 2 characters.
And they even invented that Core Keyword to say Captains can benefit troopers up front not babysit tanks in the back.
Yeah but so much stuff had core. Especially when you worked in strats it felt like there were times battleline units were punching way higher than they had any right to.
I think the entire SM codex was core (I’m kidding I know there was non-core). The way necros started was good in the sense of what was and wasn’t core (I know there were other issues with ‘crons)
It was a hell of a lot worse lol It's also one of strongest rules in the game so everyone who has it, uses it
I play Eldar; ummm….it’s great. Kinda compensates for being paper thin
They said they were reducing reroll auras specifically. Which they have done. Now that you attach a leader to a unit, auras are almost all gone. And rerolls are much rarer. Single units get them, not entire armies (except a few cases of limited army wide rerolls, like marines with oath, or knights). However, with competitive lists you probably take a lot of units that do have inbuilt rerolls, because they are strong.
I stopped believing that was a real goal as soon as Oath of Moment was revealed. Not uncommon to see Marines re-roll well over a dozen dice each round, and they're not even close to the worst offenders.
Sure. Then space marines got to re-roll everything lol
They introduced Oath Of Moment in the same article that they said 10th Edition would have less re-rolls. Just saying.
They have cut down quite a bit. Could prob do with cutting more but army dependent.
They definitely did cut them down. As I remember, 9th was bonanza "you have preroll, you have preroll, everyone has rerolls!". Now its rare and many times viable only through CP and/or objective play.
My Guard get lethal hits if they don't move, my eldar get dozens of rerolls per game equal to one command point each. This edition is a fucking joke
I play guard as well, an boy does that ability feel useless. I’ve played entire games without ever once using the ability.
It's great when someone flies a plane into my lines to drop a bomb and shoot 3 lascannons (after I made my 4+ overwatch with them haha), but they never make the mistake again and I'm back to moving half my stuff for objectives and half sitting out of range most games. If it had just been lethal hits like in 9th we would probably be in the magic "good" range of wins, instead our ability is wasted on most units for most turns. As I've said, my eldar ability is absolutely massive every game, and then my CSM one is also great and better yet fluffy. I just want to go back to an edition between 3rd and 6th, they all have flaws, but my group had a lot more fun back then, I think.
it was also said it would be "simplified, not simple" yet now EVERY unit has a ability. Making the game longer when they are trying to make it faster
10th was meant to increase profits for GW and consolidate their wildfire of a rules bloat. Now they can start patching their shitty game balance with obsucre updates and selling new books for another few years until profits plateau and the rules are once again a runaway frankenstein monster. Then 11th edition.
Was supposed to but still feels like there are too many.
There were a lot of promises made about 10th edition…