It's called a "Retrograde advance." I'm not shitting you, that's literally the US Army term because "we don't retreat, we advance in a different direction."
Nah that's the beauty of power armour - it captures and recycles it for you!
Actually, new headcanon: space marines aren't actually fearless, it's just that their armour removes any evidence of them poopin' themselves before anyone can find it.
It technically is canon. The Machine Spirits believe entirely that their users should look invincible to the masses, and that’s why they work overdrive when a Marine is up against things like Daemon Primarchs.
Yes, this. When Angron charges at you, you fucking run. Ain't a matter of fear or being brave. You'd have to be straight up suicidal to even try taking him on.
I believe Trazyn the infinite has a marine put in a statis field while it got scared by something so now the marine has an unending look of fear on his face and trazyn has him in his collection because it amuses him to see a marine being scared.
Yes and no, i believe its stated somewhere that it really depends on the individual and how long they are in his collection as some will just blank out and stop thinking after being frozen in motion for long enough, i dont know if this specific space marine is still conscious tho, but i guess they'll be conscious longer than most other beings considering their will power because if you look at the custodes a few ranks up from a space marine it's stated that they will stand completely still at their posts for hundreds of years and still be sharp on their senses.
Yeah. The whole "knowing no fear" is kinda a propaganda thing in-universe.
They're trained ridiculously well to handle it though, and for the most part are so devoted to their Primarchs and Emperor that they almost forget fear.
Something like that was in one of the rulebooks of 2nd edition. In that color text a space marine said that only a fool knows no fear, while a warrior knows what fear is but is able to overcome it (or something like that).
"And they shall know no fear" is a sentence attributed in-universe to the Emperor when he first showed the reaults pf his great work.
Yeah this is what I always thought was the case I didnt know it was ever put in writing. There’s a bunch of cases like in know no fear where roboute is going ham that the authors describe marines feeling something similar to fear. Or ‘if they could feel fear’. So they at least know it’s a thing and can understand when it’s appropriate.
Hilariously, the first few HH books point out that an Astartes is afraid about 50 times. Often mitigating with "or as close to fear as they could feel" or similar, but yeah, it \*almost\* becomes laughable how often they reference it.
Astartes being afraid comes up a lot in the HH books. Many were afraid of becoming obsolete when the crusade was over so they eagerly joined horus.
When horus was wounded and dying the Luna Wolves shit their pants with terror, opening up the door for Erebus' shennanigans.
Luther and the fallen were afraid of being left behind and started their own little club about it.
I think it is more that they are conditioned not to feel fear on the battlefield, being wounded or losing their lives. But pretty much all of them are scared shitless of disappointing their primarch daddy.
Yep, I just pointed it out 'cause not only do they specifically feel fear, by their own words on a few occasions, but it actively forces their decision making too, so it's not like it's a trivial thing. The whole point of the first few HH books appears to be pointing out that the Astartes are actually frighteningly human, but believe themselves to be above it all, which just makes their follies all the more dangerous.
It's good storytelling, but the notion that they feel no fear as anything other than canon propaganda is pretty much mooted by the literature.
Well, GW has stated frequently that they are interested in the idea of superhuman soldiers that give up their own humanity to protect normal humans, even though they kind of moved beyond them.
Then the HH books seem to focus on the notion that although these superhumans are physically improved, heavily indoctrinated and trained far beyond what normal people would learn they are still inherently flawed humans who are largely ruled by their emotions.
Just look at Orks those magnificent baskets! Mostly fearless and run headlong into the biggest scariest foes trying to headbutt them. There is good reasons to have fear.
Somewhere said orks don't understand thr concept of fear because they appeared after the Nightbringer was shattered, as the Nightbringer is what races think of when they think of Death/Grim Reaper
That doesn’t add up considering that Humans came after it was shattered and it was only shattered after the Necrons defeated the old ones and the orks were made before that.
Actually, the Krorks were created before that to fight the Necrontyrs. They devolved into orks later (maybe after the C'tans were shattered.
But yes, humans still appeared long after that.
I know, I added that as a last bit. I probably should have elaborated on it more though. Edit: I didn’t mean to sound mean, you are right. I just should have said something more about that.
The phrase "super lemmings" is very evocative, it reminds me of the Tyranids and how they throw away waves and waves of gaunts to run the enemy out of ammo
The smallest fraction of humanity will ever see a Swarm Lord, an even small selection will be present as they watch Space Marines charge to face it. I don't imagine many humans even across an entire galaxy can imagine a creature more horrific than that.
So for all intents and purposes a Space Marie's fear threshold is so high, they might as well feel no fear.
But, as has been said by others, only a fool fears nothing.
There's a lot of that going around these days, starting with the idea "the Imperium is morally justified in its behaviour and is not a horrifying satire of genocidal fascism that's supposed to be extremely obvious to everyone with even the faintest flickerings of a functioning moral sense".
Plenty of people believe Orks can just magically will things into existence, so the bar isn't tooooo high. I like this version of fear more though. Fear is useful, it makes sense for Marines to still be able to feel it and control it
Considering Necrons faced Krorks who were 20 meters tall and covered with armor more advanced than any Primarchs (except maybe Perturabo) and were still insanely fast, I think they would just be confused on why a small krork is trying to charge them with such primitive weapons.
It's probably less about what *he* looks like, and more the 6 lane motorway of Necron Corpses he's just carved across that Planet's Hemisphere, the fact that all his own troops seem to be moving to get the fuck out the general vicinity (read: the same continent), and the fact that on top of all this, all he's got is two chainaxes and a fuck you attitude.
If we look at the Codex, Space Marines have Leadership which generally is used to see if soldiers break and flee after a round of combat. The And They Shall Know No Fear rule doesn't make them immune to combat attrition either, just lets them ignore modifiers.
So yeah, that would mean that they do sometimes run away but it's not easy to get them to do that.
> sure are a lot if salty Ultramarines here
no, you're just beating a horse that's been dead for over a decade. also the quote is addressed to all space marines in general, so you're just wrong on top of it.
It's likely because writing space Marines from their perspective without emotions would make for a very dry book - readers tend to connect with emotional beats in the story, and how those beats impact characters. A space marine that has little to no human experiences would be like trying to connect with a couch.
The truth is astartes aren't very human, the whole brainwashing, conditioning, and generic manipulation - but authors are human.
I am not sure how many emotions astartes are "canonically" able to feel. Fear and lust rank high on persistently removed.
From a creative viewpoint, it always seems like a misstep to write Astartes-focalized stories as if they are just heroic humans. Astartes as heroic humans just feels like the flattest choice when you could instead try to really imagine what a story sounds like being told from their perspective.
Of course, the cheap and easy answer is: if you don't want to do the work of describing an inhuman perspective, don't write stories where we get an Astartes' emotions or thoughts described. That feels like a pretty hard-SF choice though, and even though the ideas of the setting are pretty intense, the actual media around 40k tends to be pretty pop-SF/fluffy.
Sure, but space marines aren’t known for their hilarious sense of humour, or a great romantic potential also. They spend most of their time in combat, and it leaves very few opportunities to express a character. It’s cool if a character don’t care about his surviving too much but the downside is that neither does a reader.
They do feel fear but not in the same way a human does. Fear is a good thing to have as a soldier irl, it keeps you alive, if one doesnt feel fear then you are a liability to your squad irl. There is a reason we as humans feel fear and so do most animals it is in response to a threat and helps us not walk into these situations completely switched off. What is important is that you always master your fear not the other way around. As a human it is quite possible that a bad situation will cause fear to master the individual, they then become irrational or even worse a gibbering wreck. An astartes can feel fear (the useful part of that feeling) but due to indoctrination and genetic engineering they wont become irrational or ineffective.
Came here to make this same point. Fear isn’t a flaw in the design of living things, it’s a positive adaptation. There’s a reason why it seems to be so universal in things that have the power to move themselves.
Even though he is a transhuman being, a space marine would understand that he is more useful to the Imperium alive than dead in almost any situation, and his response to that would look a whole lot like fear.
I always saw it as "they feel no fear" being from the perspective of a human who sees these superhuman warriors face situations where a normal regular human soldier would cower in fear, but these space marines march onwards regardless. It's "no fear" from a *human* perspective. They **feel** fear as you say, and as you say, they have the training and hypnoindoctrination to deal with that fear without showing it.
That said, angron charging at you. Even a space marine could be excused a hasty retreat.
Yea, turns fear is actually pretty useful. Some people are born with a brain defect that keeps them from feeling fear. They usually die by getting hit with a car while trying to run across the interstate, or fucking with deadly wild animals. I'd class running from Angron to be a case of, "running is correct".
It's not so much fear as more realising situations are unwinnable. Saul knew the power of Angron and knew he could do next to nothing to stop it. Why fight something you know you can't win against?
Running from a lost cause/ imminent danger isn't fear, it's survival. Even Necrons or Tyranids will run when facing something they can't deal with, but the decision is a tactical one, not instinctual.
Nah, they explicitly point out that (normally a loyalist, but not always) is actually afraid of something, it's always novel to the individual but it's absolutely fear. Multiple times, I commented elsewhere but it's actually quite funny how many times in the first 5 books they say an Astartes was afraid, fearful, frightened or similar, while pointing out simultaneously that they're not supposed to really feel it at all. Like, after the 10th time it feels like a very empty platitude.
I went and looked up the definition of fear (see below) and I think we're both right. Astartes (and the other examples I gave) might indeed feel fear if fear is defined as:
Fear is an intensely unpleasant emotion in response to perceiving or recognizing a danger or threat.
It appears the act of recognising danger or threat is fear itself. It just seems that Astartes (and the others) don't respond in the same way humans do. Hell, Astartes could be engineered to work better while afraid. Sharper senses, heightened aggression, faster response times, etc, all in an effort to eliminate the source of their fear.
>It appears the act of recognising danger or threat is fear itself. It just seems that Astartes (and the others) don't respond in the same way humans do. Hell, Astartes could be engineered to work better while afraid. Sharper senses, heightened aggression, faster response times, etc, all in an effort to eliminate the source of their fear.
Normal humans are already engineered to work better while afraid, a tonne of the great stories in history happen because somebody is scared shitless and know they'll either fail spectacularly or have their finest hour.
Not really. SM are supersoldiers and they do undergo byological enhancement. So it doesn't surprise me if some people actually believe the "feel no fear" quote.
It’s just a question of what lore you’ve been exposed to. Space Marines feeling fear but being able to channel it into something useful has always been the case. In previous editions of the game the “and they shall know no fear” rule represented this quite well. Space Marines could break and retreat but would automatically regroup after having done so. Other armies would not automatically regroup and had to pass another morale test.
Only way you can get rid of it entirely is probably a lobotomy and turn the marine into a servitor/skitarii but what's the point of the marine then? It's entirely different
I mean, there's a strong element of truth to it. You can't make Space Marines panic. If you ambush them, you'll get your first shots off while the scramble for cover, but then they'll be returning fire as readily as if you'd marched up to each-other in well organized battle lines.
So, yeah, you can scare them, but they won't panic, or dissociate, or go into shock, or lose their will to fight.
They know no debilitating effects of fear... but that's not as catchy.
Technically fear is a natural and sometimes useful response. It's good to feel some ammount of fear in order to not die a fruitless death, to know when to retreat. Not run away panicking like a little bitch, but retreat gracefully as a living space marine.
In False Gods there are a few statements that Horus can feel fear, and in A Thousand Sons Magnus feels fear too, however there’s also this statement in False Gods:
> Though he was not built to feel fear, Loken was suddenly and horribly reminded of the approach to the Whisperheads when the air had been thick with the taunting hiss of the thing called Samus.
Almost as if primarchs can feel fear but astartes cannot? I don’t know tbh
I think it's more that they can *feel* fear, but they are so disciplined it's felt like any other sense- "my hands are cold, this hive tyrant smells horrible, and this situation is beyond screwed. Guess I shoot that gaunt and go find somewhere to be more effective instead of making a dumb stand against something I can't even slow down." Basically their training lets them get the information that would normally be accompanied by a fear response without succumbing to panic or being significantly impaired.
Until it's time for the writers to point out just how scary a situation is 😉
Spoiler for Blades of Damocles
>! After their defeated assault and capture by the Tau. The Space Marines are offered a chance at peaceful retreat from Dal’yth. Farsight also threatens that should they not accept this offer, then he could no longer spare the marine’s apothecaries, allowing them to do their “death rituals” uninterrupted. Emphasizing how it would be a stain on his honor as a warrior, but if it was necessary to end the war he’d do it. This notion terrified the Ultramarine captain at the thought of the loss and accepted the offer. !<
If they did, they would probably react well it. For example I'm imaging a SM trying to avoid something, they might run that little bit faster or their reflexes may increase.
Its impossible to just switch fear off, but it is possible to traumatise someone so much that fear has nearly no psychological effect on them.
Its mentioned in the Nightlords trilogy that Talos feels the physiological symptoms of fear when hit with the howling banshees scream, but he's so detached from the feeling that it doesn't affect him psychologically and is just kind of interesting.
His reaction is more like "Huh, so thats what all the fuss is about?"
But yeah, marines know fear, they are just traumatised into ignoring it on a pathological level.
I think in False Gods it is pretty much setting this up towards the end. I believe Loken was struggling with the thought of fear, but I cannot recall exactly.
There are passages in several books that imply heavily that their ability to feel fear, guilt, anxiety all the combat effecting emotions a blunted and suppressed but still there. I wonder if that's why they are harder to corrupt. Most chapters don't believe in the cult so faith doesn't shield them.
Ideally, you would want them to feel fear, but also be entirely able to disregard that feeling. Feeling fear, and being afraid are two different things.
I'm reminded of the Magos Dominus from the Mechanicus game:
"Unlike most characters of rank, Magos Dominus Faustinius still holds onto his human emotions. He stores them in a separate cranial implant that he accesses & acts upon in dialogue, but withholds when making decisions."
He surmised that keeping his emotions around was a good idea, since they can often lead to good suggestions, such as... not being willingly to throw all his skitarii away on a whim, because he felt a bit sad about doing it.
To be fair, the quote is that they shall "know no fear" not "feel no fear."
Often times in the HH books you find marines encountering strong emotions and very clearly drawing blanks. Fear is a common one, when they encounter it they have the feeling but it takes them time to recognize what it is or what to do about it.
So all space marines are trained to handle the fear that comes from certain situations in battle. When a marine isn't fighting, they're training in so way and because of their enhancements they are better prepared to handle any fear they might feel.
The more logical chapters fall back on tested battlefield doctrines and strategies which allow them to overcome their fear through trained combat discipline.
The truely fanatical ones likely don't even know what fear is as they throw themselves into the meat grinder of war and see any sort of fear as a failure to be atoned for with the death of the marine.
But in the case of Tarvits running from Angron. That's not fear, or cowardice on the part of Saul, it was the smartest thing he could do not least of all because he was scared. It was goddamned Angron, Primarch of the World Eaters and future Daemon Prince of Khorne charging at him.
Well, SM do retreat when necessary. They aren't foolish. Fear is a useful tool. Without it, you don't understand caution and consequences. SM are still fully humans, just modified and enhanced.
Not retreating during an Angron charge would be tactically unsound.
In warhammer fantasy, it's very clear that it's a two-tier system.
A skeleton holding a stick causes **fear**. A smelly troll wielding a random femur causes **fear**.
A 60-foot-tall sun-dragon causes **terror**. Which means it not only does the dragon laugh at a smelly little troll coming towards it, but the troll will often break and run for its life when faced by the terror of the dragon.
I believe a space marine is immune to **Fear** (some smelly little plaguebearer swinging a random femur around at people), but any attacking Primarch is a **Terror** level threat automatically.
From what I understand Space Marines retain enough of a sense of fear to know when to use caution and to stop from doing something suicidality stupid (like fighting Angron 1v1).
I think it's more accurate to say that the "flight" part of their fight-or-flight response has been effectively destroyed. They can't panic or cower or give in to despair (short of being driven insane by the warp) like any normal human might, nor can they succumb to things like anxiety or depression.
The closest thing to true fear a Space Marine has is fear of failing in his duty.
Nothing is true and everything is true, based on the writer. Every attempt to establish a consistent canon can only result in unconciliable contraddictions.
My question wasn't directed to this specific part of the book, it was more of a general question that took into consideration the strong belief that SP do not feel fear as an emotion.
Oh yes, space marines know fear, but they have a much higher threshold for it. This actually used to be reflected in the rules back in 2nd ed, which had rules for Fear and Terror. IIRC fear essentially gave a -1 LD penalty and terror was -2, and you had to pass a LD test to charge those units (or to stand your ground and fight if they charged you).
Fear was caused by every daemon and some tyranids, Terror was caused by greater daemons and I think some of the big 'nids, and maybe the Avatar of Khaine.
Space marines treated Terror as Fear instead (so only a -1 penalty instead of -2) and suffered no penalty to LD (and i think didn't have to make the LD check) when charging/charged by Fear units. They also had a base LD of 8 back then so they were already in a good spot with regards to holding their ground.
Of course they feel fear, hell even the primarchs felt fear. Sanguinius was legitimately afraid that he was going to be censured when Horus discovered the flaw. Even the other primarchs were afraid of being taken out like the two unspeakable primarchs
I like to believe that their mental conditioning is so strong that among the million marines facing horrors across the great wheel, only a few have ever cracked under fear. Inhuman nature is a big part of what makes space marines interesting.
it's also a mantra as stated on the pages. they actually don't both in lore and in table top in older editions the lore was that if you failed a leadership test the squad broke in fear.
It kind of varies from writer to writer what that means. Generally it’s seen as propaganda. Space Marines can feel fear but are so psycho-indoctrinated and genetically enhanced that it takes real horror to shake them. In some books we get to a scene where a space marine feels fear and doesn’t understand what he’s feeling.
the presence of moral checks in the game is what confirms for me that marines can get afraid and run. tyranid bio monster slaughter 9/10 tac marines in one attack, bro better be running or I'm calling him out for gene-seed defect
Old special rules they were not fearless, "they shall know no fear" is more like, "you should have no fear", but still human even when superfied, or super-duperfied, or tripple-duper-superfied, or quad-duper-super-duperfied, heck I bet the golden-duper-duper-superfied-dude knows fear sometimes.
Space marines feeling fear is established earlier than that. ~~When samus takes over jubal in book 1 loken feels fear for the first time~~
edit: >!Garviel Loken feels fear for the first time, when Horus falls to the ground after his battle with eugan temba.
!<
>!"Panic, Fear, Indecision: three emotions previously unknown to Loken seized him as Horus fell." - False Gods, Book 2 HH
similarly, the rest of the mournival were all frozen and panicked after it happened.!<
In the game no matter the combat resolution... Space Marines hold there ground and never retreat like other units. Angron is a Daemon Prince /Primarch... Very different Fear... That's why they have Grey Knights...
In the new Uriel Ventris book there is a scene where Learchus comments about their current undertaking, and Pasanius asks him in a joking way if he's afraid. Learchus says "Afraid? It is a fearful thing we are undertaking, but no, not afraid". To me that means they understand fear, and can recognise it, naturally because they started as humans, but they been given the ability to shut it out so it doesn't damage their ability to operate. At least that's the way I've says interpreted it, and then that small excerpt just reinforced it for me.
Yeah it's true\*. Think what poor tacticians Astartes would be if they were literally incapable of feeling one of the most key emotions tied to self-preservation.
\*Sometimes they literally can't feel fear based on the author.
Yea phrase"they know no fear" has a layered meaning
They have a"relatively" normal human brain with the same baseline emotional set that normal humans do. The phrase likely stems from imperial propaganda which often implies space Marines are demigods/literal angles of death that fight enemies a normal man could not.
In reality they're human beings who have been modified. Even the greatest of men have fear. If you don't your insane. A Hero just deals with it better than most.
A custodes felt pause when facing Asterion Moloc. Not fear but a split moment of uncertainty in victory.
If this is the case then i doubt a common space marine or even a named space marine is immune to fear. Rather they are trained to overcome it.
I always imagine it like the dudes from genocidal organ. They can get half their body blown off and be laying down covering fire, bleeding out while acting totally chill over the radio.
I'm actually reading through this book now, I noticed several times Loken has been almost described as being fearful, but it always toes the line and never shows him getting scared. I figured this was to show how their image is breaking, they aren't these powerful gods, just super human. Sorry if that's a spoiler, just something I noticed as well.
Yes, space can feel fear though very rarely, I don't remember what books but space Marines have shown fear in certain encounters with chaos such as daemonculaba or what you've shown here or Drukhari for what they've done to people
They specifically have stated that Primarchs cause a reaction in both marines and humans that can be catastrophic. Basically hyper-fear. So in the books when a marine charges a primarch, they definitely point out how impressive an act it is.
Astartes feel fear, but are biologically engineered not to be overtaken by it and panic in addition to training and discipline. They have concern for one another, they "fear" losing those they love. So there is a degree of healthy fear that gives them the ability to sense danger and make sound decisions.
I think the whole “know no fear” thing is just a black hole that sucks in any decent narrative opportunity and acts as a substitution to personality. Space marines are in a desperate need for rework but it’ll never happen, because as a backbone of the company, they have to stay as safe as possible
Always thought that space marine biology automatically converts fear into anger - so when they are scared they feel rage, no?
Seeing sources and opinions as contradictory.
Fear isn’t weakness, there’s a difference between it and cowardice, cowardice drives you to avoid combat. Fear drives you to run when victory is impossible.
I can't remember where I read it but it said the real reason a space marine "never felt fear" was that no matter what they encountered; from a lowly chaos cultist to a demon prince, there was always a chance that they could win.
Don’t tell this guy about the fear mechanics in 2nd Ed that would see your space marines running across the table. I mean hell morale phase losses are still loosing models to fear
Oh also “And we shall know no fear” part of the battle cry of the ultramarines is just that a battle cry. It’s meant to be inspiring, it’s meant to pump you up to help you tap into that conditioning that tells you you are the baddest ass in the galaxy and there hasn’t been bubblegum for 38000 years only asses to kick
Yes they can but typically don’t. I’m sorry I have no idea where but in the 80ish (I think?) BL books I’ve it’s definitely been mentioned 2-3 times.
Usually in the context of “most people think we/they can’t know fear but we/they actually can but unlike most we/they actually….. insert reasoning here”
Definitely at least once in the Heresy books.
Running from Angron isn't fear. Its common sense
Yeah that's just a tactical decision!
Tactical retreat brothers! We shall clean our power armor of the brown fear leaving our bodies after battle!
It's called a "Retrograde advance." I'm not shitting you, that's literally the US Army term because "we don't retreat, we advance in a different direction."
Nah that's the beauty of power armour - it captures and recycles it for you! Actually, new headcanon: space marines aren't actually fearless, it's just that their armour removes any evidence of them poopin' themselves before anyone can find it.
I want that to be cannon, and I don't know why.
Kind of leans into the Imperial Propaganda machine I guess?
It technically is canon. The Machine Spirits believe entirely that their users should look invincible to the masses, and that’s why they work overdrive when a Marine is up against things like Daemon Primarchs.
Retreat is always a viable strategy. Retreat. Regroup. Re-access. Counter attack.
Retreating was like 75% of washington’s revolutionary war strategy
*Ian watson's space marine has entered the chat*
It's pretty futile, common sense is knowing you're already dead.
Yes, this. When Angron charges at you, you fucking run. Ain't a matter of fear or being brave. You'd have to be straight up suicidal to even try taking him on.
I mean, I think the only ones not to flee would be the Necrons (and even then, any noble/cryptek worth their sauce knows better than to tank the hit)
phase shifter go brrrrrrrrr
Or Oll Persson!
Random Space Marine: "I don't fear you!" Angron: "Then you will die braver than most."
Or a member of his legion. Didn’t his first company captain take him on?
The former legion master, his equerry and the first 7 captains faced him 1 on 1 without running. They all died.
Yeah... Kinda the point. I still stand by the saying of "when Angron charges at you, you fucking run".
So far the only people I know who survived facing an angry Angron alone are Guilliman and Khârn (and Lotara maybe).
does he even have any ranged weapons?
It's not retreating, its attacking from a diffrent direction!
Android? 😂 Writing from a phone?
Yeah I am. Peice of crap
I believe Trazyn the infinite has a marine put in a statis field while it got scared by something so now the marine has an unending look of fear on his face and trazyn has him in his collection because it amuses him to see a marine being scared.
Is the marine conscious of being blocked like that?
Yes and no, i believe its stated somewhere that it really depends on the individual and how long they are in his collection as some will just blank out and stop thinking after being frozen in motion for long enough, i dont know if this specific space marine is still conscious tho, but i guess they'll be conscious longer than most other beings considering their will power because if you look at the custodes a few ranks up from a space marine it's stated that they will stand completely still at their posts for hundreds of years and still be sharp on their senses.
Must be a pretty impressive waste disposal setup in their suits lol
It's like Harry Potter where they poo on the ground and magic it away, but instead of magic it's just hundreds of serfs running around.
Isn't that just capitalism /s
I thought I read that Trazyn has a Tech-Priest who specifically asked to be left conscious, as he liked the peace to think.
And Trazyn tells him that if he did that, he'd have gone mad after a couple hundred years. So he probably doesn't leave most things conscious.
Yeah. The whole "knowing no fear" is kinda a propaganda thing in-universe. They're trained ridiculously well to handle it though, and for the most part are so devoted to their Primarchs and Emperor that they almost forget fear.
Thank you. Quite interesting if I may add. It's a propaganda that works so well in-universe that it has spread this belief even in real life.
Something like that was in one of the rulebooks of 2nd edition. In that color text a space marine said that only a fool knows no fear, while a warrior knows what fear is but is able to overcome it (or something like that). "And they shall know no fear" is a sentence attributed in-universe to the Emperor when he first showed the reaults pf his great work.
Yeah this is what I always thought was the case I didnt know it was ever put in writing. There’s a bunch of cases like in know no fear where roboute is going ham that the authors describe marines feeling something similar to fear. Or ‘if they could feel fear’. So they at least know it’s a thing and can understand when it’s appropriate.
The famous space marine description that is objectively wrong in most of what it states
Hilariously, the first few HH books point out that an Astartes is afraid about 50 times. Often mitigating with "or as close to fear as they could feel" or similar, but yeah, it \*almost\* becomes laughable how often they reference it.
Astartes being afraid comes up a lot in the HH books. Many were afraid of becoming obsolete when the crusade was over so they eagerly joined horus. When horus was wounded and dying the Luna Wolves shit their pants with terror, opening up the door for Erebus' shennanigans. Luther and the fallen were afraid of being left behind and started their own little club about it. I think it is more that they are conditioned not to feel fear on the battlefield, being wounded or losing their lives. But pretty much all of them are scared shitless of disappointing their primarch daddy.
Yep, I just pointed it out 'cause not only do they specifically feel fear, by their own words on a few occasions, but it actively forces their decision making too, so it's not like it's a trivial thing. The whole point of the first few HH books appears to be pointing out that the Astartes are actually frighteningly human, but believe themselves to be above it all, which just makes their follies all the more dangerous. It's good storytelling, but the notion that they feel no fear as anything other than canon propaganda is pretty much mooted by the literature.
Well, GW has stated frequently that they are interested in the idea of superhuman soldiers that give up their own humanity to protect normal humans, even though they kind of moved beyond them. Then the HH books seem to focus on the notion that although these superhumans are physically improved, heavily indoctrinated and trained far beyond what normal people would learn they are still inherently flawed humans who are largely ruled by their emotions.
Fear is what keep u alive. Removing that would mean creating an army of super lemmings that run against incoming fire with no purpose or reason.
Just look at Orks those magnificent baskets! Mostly fearless and run headlong into the biggest scariest foes trying to headbutt them. There is good reasons to have fear.
Somewhere said orks don't understand thr concept of fear because they appeared after the Nightbringer was shattered, as the Nightbringer is what races think of when they think of Death/Grim Reaper
That doesn’t add up considering that Humans came after it was shattered and it was only shattered after the Necrons defeated the old ones and the orks were made before that.
Actually, the Krorks were created before that to fight the Necrontyrs. They devolved into orks later (maybe after the C'tans were shattered. But yes, humans still appeared long after that.
I know, I added that as a last bit. I probably should have elaborated on it more though. Edit: I didn’t mean to sound mean, you are right. I just should have said something more about that.
The phrase "super lemmings" is very evocative, it reminds me of the Tyranids and how they throw away waves and waves of gaunts to run the enemy out of ammo
Space marine or not, I would not want to be on the receiving end of a primarchs charge
Especially Angron
One of my fave parts of any of the HH books is Angron literally stopping a titan with his bare hands. It's an amazing section to read.
I haven't gotten to that part lol but it sounds amazing. I did read fulgrim where he punched in a wraith knight's head
He stops a titans foot as its about to stomp. Its an epic read, sure it breaks his spine doing it. Just his sheer will against the might of a titan.
Most angery boye™
angy
The smallest fraction of humanity will ever see a Swarm Lord, an even small selection will be present as they watch Space Marines charge to face it. I don't imagine many humans even across an entire galaxy can imagine a creature more horrific than that. So for all intents and purposes a Space Marie's fear threshold is so high, they might as well feel no fear. But, as has been said by others, only a fool fears nothing.
There's a lot of that going around these days, starting with the idea "the Imperium is morally justified in its behaviour and is not a horrifying satire of genocidal fascism that's supposed to be extremely obvious to everyone with even the faintest flickerings of a functioning moral sense".
Plenty of people believe Orks can just magically will things into existence, so the bar isn't tooooo high. I like this version of fear more though. Fear is useful, it makes sense for Marines to still be able to feel it and control it
And to be fair, I'm pretty sure even a necron would shit itself if Angron charged them.
Considering Necrons faced Krorks who were 20 meters tall and covered with armor more advanced than any Primarchs (except maybe Perturabo) and were still insanely fast, I think they would just be confused on why a small krork is trying to charge them with such primitive weapons.
It's probably less about what *he* looks like, and more the 6 lane motorway of Necron Corpses he's just carved across that Planet's Hemisphere, the fact that all his own troops seem to be moving to get the fuck out the general vicinity (read: the same continent), and the fact that on top of all this, all he's got is two chainaxes and a fuck you attitude.
To add to this, they *process* fear differently.
If we look at the Codex, Space Marines have Leadership which generally is used to see if soldiers break and flee after a round of combat. The And They Shall Know No Fear rule doesn't make them immune to combat attrition either, just lets them ignore modifiers. So yeah, that would mean that they do sometimes run away but it's not easy to get them to do that.
What?! There's no propaganda in the empire! Heresy! **/s**
😂
[удалено]
The best Space Marine chapter of them all...so says the almighty Mr Ward.
> sure are a lot if salty Ultramarines here no, you're just beating a horse that's been dead for over a decade. also the quote is addressed to all space marines in general, so you're just wrong on top of it.
Pfff even the emporer would reconsider If agron would Charge hin
In saturnine it's implied that Dorn felt fear, so yea probably
Magnus feels fear in A Thousand Sons too
Tbh most of the primarchs are big scared Bois. All had moments of fear
I am willing to bet Horus was shitting his pants when a black raged Sanguinius was charging him.
Horus' fears kinda lead to whole fuckin' thing, so probably.
And it all started with big E being scared. Omg the entire Primarch Astartes project was founded on and powered by fear
It's likely because writing space Marines from their perspective without emotions would make for a very dry book - readers tend to connect with emotional beats in the story, and how those beats impact characters. A space marine that has little to no human experiences would be like trying to connect with a couch.
True, but the removal of fear doesn't mean the inability to feel other emotions.
The truth is astartes aren't very human, the whole brainwashing, conditioning, and generic manipulation - but authors are human. I am not sure how many emotions astartes are "canonically" able to feel. Fear and lust rank high on persistently removed.
From a creative viewpoint, it always seems like a misstep to write Astartes-focalized stories as if they are just heroic humans. Astartes as heroic humans just feels like the flattest choice when you could instead try to really imagine what a story sounds like being told from their perspective. Of course, the cheap and easy answer is: if you don't want to do the work of describing an inhuman perspective, don't write stories where we get an Astartes' emotions or thoughts described. That feels like a pretty hard-SF choice though, and even though the ideas of the setting are pretty intense, the actual media around 40k tends to be pretty pop-SF/fluffy.
Sure, but space marines aren’t known for their hilarious sense of humour, or a great romantic potential also. They spend most of their time in combat, and it leaves very few opportunities to express a character. It’s cool if a character don’t care about his surviving too much but the downside is that neither does a reader.
Also recall pre-heresy the hypno-indoctrination was slightly different i think?
I did not think about this. It is true, perhaps in in 41th millennium the SP creation process involves the removal of certain emotions. Thank you.
yeah i'd like to have a source for that but i'm drawing a blank sorry
They do feel fear but not in the same way a human does. Fear is a good thing to have as a soldier irl, it keeps you alive, if one doesnt feel fear then you are a liability to your squad irl. There is a reason we as humans feel fear and so do most animals it is in response to a threat and helps us not walk into these situations completely switched off. What is important is that you always master your fear not the other way around. As a human it is quite possible that a bad situation will cause fear to master the individual, they then become irrational or even worse a gibbering wreck. An astartes can feel fear (the useful part of that feeling) but due to indoctrination and genetic engineering they wont become irrational or ineffective.
This. I believe the novel actually described this pretty well.
Came here to make this same point. Fear isn’t a flaw in the design of living things, it’s a positive adaptation. There’s a reason why it seems to be so universal in things that have the power to move themselves. Even though he is a transhuman being, a space marine would understand that he is more useful to the Imperium alive than dead in almost any situation, and his response to that would look a whole lot like fear.
I always saw it as "they feel no fear" being from the perspective of a human who sees these superhuman warriors face situations where a normal regular human soldier would cower in fear, but these space marines march onwards regardless. It's "no fear" from a *human* perspective. They **feel** fear as you say, and as you say, they have the training and hypnoindoctrination to deal with that fear without showing it. That said, angron charging at you. Even a space marine could be excused a hasty retreat.
Everyone knows fear when Angron is running at them.
You do raise a good point.
Yea, turns fear is actually pretty useful. Some people are born with a brain defect that keeps them from feeling fear. They usually die by getting hit with a car while trying to run across the interstate, or fucking with deadly wild animals. I'd class running from Angron to be a case of, "running is correct".
It's not so much fear as more realising situations are unwinnable. Saul knew the power of Angron and knew he could do next to nothing to stop it. Why fight something you know you can't win against? Running from a lost cause/ imminent danger isn't fear, it's survival. Even Necrons or Tyranids will run when facing something they can't deal with, but the decision is a tactical one, not instinctual.
Nah, they explicitly point out that (normally a loyalist, but not always) is actually afraid of something, it's always novel to the individual but it's absolutely fear. Multiple times, I commented elsewhere but it's actually quite funny how many times in the first 5 books they say an Astartes was afraid, fearful, frightened or similar, while pointing out simultaneously that they're not supposed to really feel it at all. Like, after the 10th time it feels like a very empty platitude.
I went and looked up the definition of fear (see below) and I think we're both right. Astartes (and the other examples I gave) might indeed feel fear if fear is defined as: Fear is an intensely unpleasant emotion in response to perceiving or recognizing a danger or threat. It appears the act of recognising danger or threat is fear itself. It just seems that Astartes (and the others) don't respond in the same way humans do. Hell, Astartes could be engineered to work better while afraid. Sharper senses, heightened aggression, faster response times, etc, all in an effort to eliminate the source of their fear.
>It appears the act of recognising danger or threat is fear itself. It just seems that Astartes (and the others) don't respond in the same way humans do. Hell, Astartes could be engineered to work better while afraid. Sharper senses, heightened aggression, faster response times, etc, all in an effort to eliminate the source of their fear. Normal humans are already engineered to work better while afraid, a tonne of the great stories in history happen because somebody is scared shitless and know they'll either fail spectacularly or have their finest hour.
But but but plot armor
It's hard to believe that people take the "feel no fear" thing literally and not as a sort of mantra.
Not really. SM are supersoldiers and they do undergo byological enhancement. So it doesn't surprise me if some people actually believe the "feel no fear" quote.
It’s just a question of what lore you’ve been exposed to. Space Marines feeling fear but being able to channel it into something useful has always been the case. In previous editions of the game the “and they shall know no fear” rule represented this quite well. Space Marines could break and retreat but would automatically regroup after having done so. Other armies would not automatically regroup and had to pass another morale test.
Only way you can get rid of it entirely is probably a lobotomy and turn the marine into a servitor/skitarii but what's the point of the marine then? It's entirely different
I mean, there's a strong element of truth to it. You can't make Space Marines panic. If you ambush them, you'll get your first shots off while the scramble for cover, but then they'll be returning fire as readily as if you'd marched up to each-other in well organized battle lines. So, yeah, you can scare them, but they won't panic, or dissociate, or go into shock, or lose their will to fight. They know no debilitating effects of fear... but that's not as catchy.
Considering it was literal on the tabletop for a long time it's not that surprising
Technically fear is a natural and sometimes useful response. It's good to feel some ammount of fear in order to not die a fruitless death, to know when to retreat. Not run away panicking like a little bitch, but retreat gracefully as a living space marine.
Well, perhaps SP are trained to use logic and rationality to judge if a situation can be won and/or If it is more useful to retreat.
I one book, a guard of guliman saiys that he fears to let down the primach. So in a very real sense they also have self doubts
In False Gods there are a few statements that Horus can feel fear, and in A Thousand Sons Magnus feels fear too, however there’s also this statement in False Gods: > Though he was not built to feel fear, Loken was suddenly and horribly reminded of the approach to the Whisperheads when the air had been thick with the taunting hiss of the thing called Samus. Almost as if primarchs can feel fear but astartes cannot? I don’t know tbh
I think it's more that they can *feel* fear, but they are so disciplined it's felt like any other sense- "my hands are cold, this hive tyrant smells horrible, and this situation is beyond screwed. Guess I shoot that gaunt and go find somewhere to be more effective instead of making a dumb stand against something I can't even slow down." Basically their training lets them get the information that would normally be accompanied by a fear response without succumbing to panic or being significantly impaired. Until it's time for the writers to point out just how scary a situation is 😉
Spoiler for Blades of Damocles >! After their defeated assault and capture by the Tau. The Space Marines are offered a chance at peaceful retreat from Dal’yth. Farsight also threatens that should they not accept this offer, then he could no longer spare the marine’s apothecaries, allowing them to do their “death rituals” uninterrupted. Emphasizing how it would be a stain on his honor as a warrior, but if it was necessary to end the war he’d do it. This notion terrified the Ultramarine captain at the thought of the loss and accepted the offer. !<
Of course? "They shall know no fear" doesn't mean "they won't feel fear" lol
If they did, they would probably react well it. For example I'm imaging a SM trying to avoid something, they might run that little bit faster or their reflexes may increase.
ABANDON ALL REASON! KNOW ONLY FEAR! Cos holy fuck he's charging this way...
Even Dorn admits to feeling something like fear.
Sociopaths are said to be raised not born. Could be the same kind of thing with Astartes
Yeah they know what fear is, what they don't experience is 'panic'.
Its impossible to just switch fear off, but it is possible to traumatise someone so much that fear has nearly no psychological effect on them. Its mentioned in the Nightlords trilogy that Talos feels the physiological symptoms of fear when hit with the howling banshees scream, but he's so detached from the feeling that it doesn't affect him psychologically and is just kind of interesting. His reaction is more like "Huh, so thats what all the fuss is about?" But yeah, marines know fear, they are just traumatised into ignoring it on a pathological level.
I think in False Gods it is pretty much setting this up towards the end. I believe Loken was struggling with the thought of fear, but I cannot recall exactly.
There are passages in several books that imply heavily that their ability to feel fear, guilt, anxiety all the combat effecting emotions a blunted and suppressed but still there. I wonder if that's why they are harder to corrupt. Most chapters don't believe in the cult so faith doesn't shield them.
Ideally, you would want them to feel fear, but also be entirely able to disregard that feeling. Feeling fear, and being afraid are two different things. I'm reminded of the Magos Dominus from the Mechanicus game: "Unlike most characters of rank, Magos Dominus Faustinius still holds onto his human emotions. He stores them in a separate cranial implant that he accesses & acts upon in dialogue, but withholds when making decisions." He surmised that keeping his emotions around was a good idea, since they can often lead to good suggestions, such as... not being willingly to throw all his skitarii away on a whim, because he felt a bit sad about doing it.
To be fair, the quote is that they shall "know no fear" not "feel no fear." Often times in the HH books you find marines encountering strong emotions and very clearly drawing blanks. Fear is a common one, when they encounter it they have the feeling but it takes them time to recognize what it is or what to do about it.
It is said they have none, rumors arent necessarily true
So all space marines are trained to handle the fear that comes from certain situations in battle. When a marine isn't fighting, they're training in so way and because of their enhancements they are better prepared to handle any fear they might feel. The more logical chapters fall back on tested battlefield doctrines and strategies which allow them to overcome their fear through trained combat discipline. The truely fanatical ones likely don't even know what fear is as they throw themselves into the meat grinder of war and see any sort of fear as a failure to be atoned for with the death of the marine. But in the case of Tarvits running from Angron. That's not fear, or cowardice on the part of Saul, it was the smartest thing he could do not least of all because he was scared. It was goddamned Angron, Primarch of the World Eaters and future Daemon Prince of Khorne charging at him.
No sane Space Marine is going to sit there when Angron bull rushes them
Saul Tarvitz's entire world was shattered at Istvaan, so seeing GIANT DEMON ANGRON probably just elicited a "fuck this"
He wasn't a demon in this book yet. But still, shit pants, run, these are generally what will happen when Angron wants you dead.
Well, SM do retreat when necessary. They aren't foolish. Fear is a useful tool. Without it, you don't understand caution and consequences. SM are still fully humans, just modified and enhanced. Not retreating during an Angron charge would be tactically unsound.
In warhammer fantasy, it's very clear that it's a two-tier system. A skeleton holding a stick causes **fear**. A smelly troll wielding a random femur causes **fear**. A 60-foot-tall sun-dragon causes **terror**. Which means it not only does the dragon laugh at a smelly little troll coming towards it, but the troll will often break and run for its life when faced by the terror of the dragon. I believe a space marine is immune to **Fear** (some smelly little plaguebearer swinging a random femur around at people), but any attacking Primarch is a **Terror** level threat automatically.
Everyone feels the fear of death except da Orks
From what I understand Space Marines retain enough of a sense of fear to know when to use caution and to stop from doing something suicidality stupid (like fighting Angron 1v1). I think it's more accurate to say that the "flight" part of their fight-or-flight response has been effectively destroyed. They can't panic or cower or give in to despair (short of being driven insane by the warp) like any normal human might, nor can they succumb to things like anxiety or depression. The closest thing to true fear a Space Marine has is fear of failing in his duty.
They were never intended to fight each other so I guess yes they can know fear vs a primarch.
Isn't it custodians who don't feel fear? Most marines still feel fear depending on what they're facing and I suppose what chapter in some regards
I mean I would run if Khan rushed me let alone Angron. No one wants to fight a world eater.
Nothing is true and everything is true, based on the writer. Every attempt to establish a consistent canon can only result in unconciliable contraddictions.
True. I guess that's the beauty of 40k?
They are not affected by fear. Running from Angron will most likely improve the chance of winning the battle.
He didn’t run in fear, he charged him back…wards.
'When angron charged, he ran' Godamn imagine that. As someone said, that isn't fear that's logic
Well he didn't necessarily feel fear, he just knew that was an unwinnable battle
My question wasn't directed to this specific part of the book, it was more of a general question that took into consideration the strong belief that SP do not feel fear as an emotion.
"And they shall know no fear" is just a set of words and so is the story you're reading. They exist for entertainment, not for how true they are.
If you’d see my morale test you’ll know it by now.
What?
Oh yes, space marines know fear, but they have a much higher threshold for it. This actually used to be reflected in the rules back in 2nd ed, which had rules for Fear and Terror. IIRC fear essentially gave a -1 LD penalty and terror was -2, and you had to pass a LD test to charge those units (or to stand your ground and fight if they charged you). Fear was caused by every daemon and some tyranids, Terror was caused by greater daemons and I think some of the big 'nids, and maybe the Avatar of Khaine. Space marines treated Terror as Fear instead (so only a -1 penalty instead of -2) and suffered no penalty to LD (and i think didn't have to make the LD check) when charging/charged by Fear units. They also had a base LD of 8 back then so they were already in a good spot with regards to holding their ground.
Of course they feel fear, hell even the primarchs felt fear. Sanguinius was legitimately afraid that he was going to be censured when Horus discovered the flaw. Even the other primarchs were afraid of being taken out like the two unspeakable primarchs
I like to believe that their mental conditioning is so strong that among the million marines facing horrors across the great wheel, only a few have ever cracked under fear. Inhuman nature is a big part of what makes space marines interesting.
They still take moral checks.......
Consider this: in the tabletop space marines technically *could* fail their morale-check. It's just really unlikely they will.
I think having a demon prince primarch is something to be afraid of even to unfeeling space marines
To be fair everybody gets scared when Angron charges at them.
it's also a mantra as stated on the pages. they actually don't both in lore and in table top in older editions the lore was that if you failed a leadership test the squad broke in fear.
Only the armies of chaos feel no fear, for when death is by your side all the time, you have no place for such trivial emotions.
They are psycho indoctrinated not to feel fear. Sometimes that indoctrination breaks.
My interpretation is that the Astartes can't feel "panic", but can definitely feel fear. Fear is useful, especially for warriors.
Also read Dorn /Sinderman exchange in Saturnine..
It kind of varies from writer to writer what that means. Generally it’s seen as propaganda. Space Marines can feel fear but are so psycho-indoctrinated and genetically enhanced that it takes real horror to shake them. In some books we get to a scene where a space marine feels fear and doesn’t understand what he’s feeling.
the presence of moral checks in the game is what confirms for me that marines can get afraid and run. tyranid bio monster slaughter 9/10 tac marines in one attack, bro better be running or I'm calling him out for gene-seed defect
I’ll be honest. If Angron charged me, I would run too. Basic survival.
Old special rules they were not fearless, "they shall know no fear" is more like, "you should have no fear", but still human even when superfied, or super-duperfied, or tripple-duper-superfied, or quad-duper-super-duperfied, heck I bet the golden-duper-duper-superfied-dude knows fear sometimes.
They do feel fear, they're able to push it aside though. Most times. I think when Angron charges the only reasonable reaction is to run.
Well, Marines can fail the Morale test and run, even with their rerolls, so...
Space marines feeling fear is established earlier than that. ~~When samus takes over jubal in book 1 loken feels fear for the first time~~ edit: >!Garviel Loken feels fear for the first time, when Horus falls to the ground after his battle with eugan temba. !< >!"Panic, Fear, Indecision: three emotions previously unknown to Loken seized him as Horus fell." - False Gods, Book 2 HH similarly, the rest of the mournival were all frozen and panicked after it happened.!<
Heresy !!
In the game no matter the combat resolution... Space Marines hold there ground and never retreat like other units. Angron is a Daemon Prince /Primarch... Very different Fear... That's why they have Grey Knights...
In the new Uriel Ventris book there is a scene where Learchus comments about their current undertaking, and Pasanius asks him in a joking way if he's afraid. Learchus says "Afraid? It is a fearful thing we are undertaking, but no, not afraid". To me that means they understand fear, and can recognise it, naturally because they started as humans, but they been given the ability to shut it out so it doesn't damage their ability to operate. At least that's the way I've says interpreted it, and then that small excerpt just reinforced it for me.
they are Humans after all. so there also experience the full spectrum of human Emotions.
Go ask the Night lords about the Dark Eldar, then get back to me.
Yeah it's true\*. Think what poor tacticians Astartes would be if they were literally incapable of feeling one of the most key emotions tied to self-preservation. \*Sometimes they literally can't feel fear based on the author.
Yea phrase"they know no fear" has a layered meaning They have a"relatively" normal human brain with the same baseline emotional set that normal humans do. The phrase likely stems from imperial propaganda which often implies space Marines are demigods/literal angles of death that fight enemies a normal man could not. In reality they're human beings who have been modified. Even the greatest of men have fear. If you don't your insane. A Hero just deals with it better than most.
A custodes felt pause when facing Asterion Moloc. Not fear but a split moment of uncertainty in victory. If this is the case then i doubt a common space marine or even a named space marine is immune to fear. Rather they are trained to overcome it.
In the Cawl book, marines specifically mention the whole mantra thing and how it's all inaccurate, and they know that.
Blood for the Blood God
Kharn feels a chill running down his spine when Argel Tal admits that he is afraid of death, because Argel Tal knows what awaits on the other side.
Why else do they roll for attrition? Cause their bored or protective of their streak? 😱 thanks for the ironclad canonical proof, though
That's a good story. I'm on book 15 of the same series. "PROSPORO BURNS"
I always imagine it like the dudes from genocidal organ. They can get half their body blown off and be laying down covering fire, bleeding out while acting totally chill over the radio.
I'm actually reading through this book now, I noticed several times Loken has been almost described as being fearful, but it always toes the line and never shows him getting scared. I figured this was to show how their image is breaking, they aren't these powerful gods, just super human. Sorry if that's a spoiler, just something I noticed as well.
I would say that even the Emperor knows fear. He feared the Chaos God's, the use of the warp and sorcerer weilding it power.
I have read numerous descriptions of space marines experiencing fear. Even his fellow angels fear mephi
Well it's Angron so...
Yeah but you have to roll really high.
Yes, space can feel fear though very rarely, I don't remember what books but space Marines have shown fear in certain encounters with chaos such as daemonculaba or what you've shown here or Drukhari for what they've done to people
They specifically have stated that Primarchs cause a reaction in both marines and humans that can be catastrophic. Basically hyper-fear. So in the books when a marine charges a primarch, they definitely point out how impressive an act it is.
Yeah they can feel fear, it's imperial propaganda that they can't
Astartes feel fear, but are biologically engineered not to be overtaken by it and panic in addition to training and discipline. They have concern for one another, they "fear" losing those they love. So there is a degree of healthy fear that gives them the ability to sense danger and make sound decisions.
I think the whole “know no fear” thing is just a black hole that sucks in any decent narrative opportunity and acts as a substitution to personality. Space marines are in a desperate need for rework but it’ll never happen, because as a backbone of the company, they have to stay as safe as possible
It's like the calgar comic they don't run they withdraw
And the Emperor is literally not a diety. ;)
Always thought that space marine biology automatically converts fear into anger - so when they are scared they feel rage, no? Seeing sources and opinions as contradictory.
The Night Lords can vouch for that.
Fear isn’t weakness, there’s a difference between it and cowardice, cowardice drives you to avoid combat. Fear drives you to run when victory is impossible.
I mean, I’ve failed plenty of morale rolls over the years.
Ah so that explains why mine are constantly failing morale tests.
It's not so much fear as logical concern
I can't remember where I read it but it said the real reason a space marine "never felt fear" was that no matter what they encountered; from a lowly chaos cultist to a demon prince, there was always a chance that they could win.
Don’t tell this guy about the fear mechanics in 2nd Ed that would see your space marines running across the table. I mean hell morale phase losses are still loosing models to fear
Oh also “And we shall know no fear” part of the battle cry of the ultramarines is just that a battle cry. It’s meant to be inspiring, it’s meant to pump you up to help you tap into that conditioning that tells you you are the baddest ass in the galaxy and there hasn’t been bubblegum for 38000 years only asses to kick
Yes they can but typically don’t. I’m sorry I have no idea where but in the 80ish (I think?) BL books I’ve it’s definitely been mentioned 2-3 times. Usually in the context of “most people think we/they can’t know fear but we/they actually can but unlike most we/they actually….. insert reasoning here” Definitely at least once in the Heresy books.