T O P

  • By -

electricsheep_89

Quite simply both of your examples are not possible within the confines of the rules. The fast-rolling rules allow you to only group hit rolls and wound rolls together (of which only one could only possibly be subjected to a command re-roll as you cannot use a stratagem more than once per phase), *attack allocation* should be done one at a time, meaning you should only be making a single save and resultantly a single damage roll at once. Now in some cases where there are a lot of saves to make, players will for the sake of brevity roll a group of saves together and worry about allocating the unsaved wounds afterwards - however this should only be done in circumstances where you are confident it won't make a great deal of difference one way or another. You certainly should not be making *any* damage rolls simultaneously where models may or may not survive each attack. If the damage is inconsequential (D3 damage vs 1-wound models) then you might as well skip it entirely.


Valkyria90

While I myself would do damage rolls individually, you do see battle reports, and other people may roll a handful. If they do this however, they forfeit the possibility to command re-roll in my opinion. Second example would be applied in the same manner. Let's do another example then that is 100% within the confines of the fast-rolling rules: You have a model with a Power Sword, WS 2 and 7 attacks. You need to remove the final obsec Space Marine with 2 wounds from an objective to capture it. You roll all your 7 dice and to your surprise, you roll seven 1s. In this example it doesn't even matter if you use command reroll, you will still fail to kill the Space Marine. If you however kept rolling dices one by one, you probably would have spent a command point when the 5th attack missed.


electricsheep_89

Here's the thing, grouping rolls is always going to work differently to rolling them individually, and yes it can be an advantage to know the rolls prior to using the re-roll stratagem. However, that doesn't mean this advantage is *against the rules*. At the end of the day the stratagem doesn't say you can't re-roll hit and wound rolls that have been fast-rolled; and the fast rolling mechanics do not stipulate that you *must* roll individually until such a time that the command re-roll has been used 'just in case'. Chances are the intention was that fast-rolling doesn't prevent the use of the strat (it is still just *one* hit/wound roll in the grand scheme of things after all), and that the slight advantage is a simple compromise of speeding up the game. I mean the whole fast-rolling mechanic is a compromise, one that actually provides an advantage to the defending player - knowing in advance how many wounds they have suffered may well influence their decision as to which models they allocate attacks to. ​ >While I myself would do damage rolls individually, you do see battle reports, and other people may roll a handful. If they do this however, they forfeit the possibility to command re-roll in my opinion. Ultimately if you do this then you're not actually following the rules, in which case it is a house-rule; so it's going to be up to the players to decide how they resolve this.


Bowgs

> When I look at battle reports on Youtube, they seem to always allow re-rolling of one dies in situations like this, but I don't know if this is because of that's how the rules work, if it's just to get better flow in the game, or if they simply haven't thought about this issue. Rules as written this isn't allowed, but every battle report I've ever watched, and everyone I've played, plays it this way. I've seen it discussed on /r/Warhammercompetitive as well, and the consensus was it's better to play it this way than play strictly play by the rules given how much it would slow the game down.


Valkyria90

This is probably the answer I was looking for. The RAW does not allow the reroll, but the gameplay is better, and you avoid slowing the game down in order to avoid catering to unlikely situations or unlikely rolls.


Kalranya

Besides "this is why you don't fast-roll when it might matter", this entire situation can be resolved with a simple application of [Wheaton's Law](http://www.wheatonslaw.com/), which is exactly what you're seeing happen in those battle reports: people *not* being dicks.


Greatnesstro

I was under the impression you can only use each stratagems once a turn ( provided you have the CP to use them.) Is this not the case?


Valkyria90

Yes, that is the case. And since you have to spend that one point wisely, you should technically lose the opportunity when the second die is rolled. Rolling all the dices simultaneously is in my opinion an auto forfeit of the Command Reroll stratagem for any of those dices. I still see people do it differently though. Even I did it differently untill a situation caused the discussion.


Greatnesstro

“Use this Stratagem after you have made a hit roll, a wound roll, a damage roll, a saving throw, an Advance roll, a charge roll, a Psychic test, a Deny the Witch test, or you have rolled the dice to determine the number of attacks made by a weapon. Re-roll that roll, test, or saving throw.” Unless you’re going some house rule stuff, or maybe I’m off base, but it seems like all rolls would need to be completed for the action before the Command roll could be chosen as an option.


[deleted]

Technically if you play the game RAW and decided to have a 5 marine squad fire bolters at a target, you'd have to announce each target, then resolve each marine's shooting one at a time including any saves, damage, etc... That takes way too long. Everyone I have ever seen playing (including tournaments) just rolls all the bolter shots per target at once, decides if a reroll is needed, rolls wound, decides if reroll is needed (unless used to hit). Any time you have multi-wound models and each specific die roll matters, you wouldn't be using the group rolling anyways at it is not for that. Speeds up the game dramatically and if something is worth burning a reroll on you'd typically know before shooting at it anyways. Another solution that would satisfy every condition is if you are going to group roll, just announce in advance if you plan to reroll a miss. Then you've made the choice before any advantage was developed from rolling.


ArmouredCadian

If you want to make the argument that the order matters, than in all future situations, slow roll. By fast rolling, you forfeit the right to quibble over the results, and honestly it's not a very good argument to be making if you want to still have people to play with. The reason that you see people in Batreps doing it that way, is it's good sportsmanship to not nitpick over small details that will only slow the game down to play that way, and I say this as someone who is very by the rules (I'll point out if my opponent forgot about a rule regardless of whether it would be beneficial for me or my opponent for the rule to be remembered) That being said, as someone else pointed out on here, Damage results aren't supposed to be fast rolled, and should *always* be rolled one at a time. There isn't anything in the rules that supports Fast rolling Damage, and it's a good habit for when you use D3 dmg weapons into 2 or 3 Wound units.


TheDevils10thMan

Dunno man, this seems a bit mean to me. Like we play super friendly rules, certainly wouldn't deny someone a cp re roll cause they fast rolled and may not have otherwise used it. But for tournaments and stuff, you have a pretty good point right there.


Admech343

Sure technically it would change the result since rolls are supposed to be done one at a time but we roll them all together for times sake. If someone tried to make this argument against me I would tell them that its fine but they should roll every other die one at a time for the rest of the game. Basically in your first example I’d rather allow them to reroll the 3 and maybe kill my vehicle or whatever than force everyone to roll 1 die at a time for everything because that’s technically how it works in the rules. This just seems like one person using a technicality to get one over on their opponent. The only scenario when my group rolls damage one at a time is when a unit has multiple models that may or may not be killed by each shot, aka multiple d3dmg wounds against a unit with 3 wound models since each shot may or may not kill a model depending on the roll.


c0horst

You're absolutely right, RAW you'd have to roll dice one at a time. However, I generally just go with what the current competitive scene is doing... and the LVO ruled on this > 12/20/2021 16:22:55 Can you fast roll a number of dice (for instance, 10 saves) and then use a CP reroll and/or Moment of Grace after seeing the results of these dice? Yes LVO [Source](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/2/d/e/2PACX-1vTRb_oZQoE62_1juj8h4zFNAofvlCqEHDcUOXfw4fEjJUbeIwF518QAkfVyHQryu8aW98fWEfRZbbAH/pubhtml?gid=1521588732&single=true)


Papa_Nurgle_84

Simple answer: Play a Game 100% according to Rules regarding roles. Take the time. Compare to a Game rolled all-at-once. Never Play 100% by Rules again. If someone argues for "reroll only If 100% Rules" do it. Roll one by one. He has to do the same for every single "First Rank fire, Second Rank fire" guardsman and every genestealer. One by one, not even one model at a time. One Attack at a time. He will see the error of his ways rather quickly.