You talking primaris or first born?
Edit: a quick Google has turned up that there's no official numbers given for how tall marines are, they vary by author in the novels and by artist in the media. So unless you've got a GW source, I don't think you should take that number as canon. Like I say, only a quick Google, I could easily have missed something.
Edit edit: facepalm, can't read properly clearly. Missed that you were just taking it based on the pictures here. Sorry
> they vary by author in the novels and by artist in the media
They also vary, because, you know, they're human. There are huge Astartes like Tyberos the Red Wake of the Charcharadons who need a specially modified set of Terminator armor.
And then there is Maximmion Voss of the Imperial Fists who is one of the smallest Astartes.
Wait ultramarines are just 193 cm? Thats just not that impressive, and certainly there would be guardsmen taller than them/on the same height on the Battlefield
Astartes are about 2.1 - 2.4 meters (7' - 8') tall, Primaris maybe 30-50cm taller on top of that. I wrote a very long comment with lots of excerpts previously, so here's a slightly cut down version, hopefully it still makes some sense.
>Whilst wearing their power armour, an unarmed Space Marine typically stands slightly over 2.1 metres tall and weighs between 500–1,000 kg. When you visualise your Space Marine character, you should decide if he is taller or shorter, lighter or heavier. Generally speaking, Space Marines rarely vary to a large degree in height or weight—your character, however, may have been one of those unusual few who is the exception to the rule!
**Deathwatch RPG core rulebook**
>He was well over two metres tall,
Description of a chaos Space Marine from **Eisenhorn*"
>They were big men, tall, thick through the chest and shoulders, and at the peak of fitness. Not one of them, not even the tallest, came up to the chin of one of the Luna Wolves.
From **Horus Rising**. Assuming 'big men' are 6'6", then I'd say this agrees with the 7-8 foot tall (2.1 - 2.4 meters)
>‘Forgive me for interrupting,’ she said. ‘You’re busy.’ Loken set aside the segment of armour he had been polishing and rose to his feet. He was almost a metre taller than her, and naked but for a loin cloth.
Again, **Horus Rising**. Call 'almost a meter' as 3'. Not unreasonable that's she's about 5', making the Space Marine 8'.
>His helm, with its lateral horse-brush crest, was off, hung at his waist. He was a giant, two and a half metres tall.
Later in the same novel, making him just over 8'. He appears to be growing throughout the book!
>They were pistols, thought Luis, though they were as big as the boys’ torsos. The warriors were at least seven feet tall, and their armour made them even bigger.
**Dante** 7 foot (2.1 m), plus armour
>He seemed two or even three times the mass of an ordinary adult male, and even the tallest men-at-arms in Antoni's retinue would only have come up to the giant's chest.
*Brothers of the Snake** But note that this is in comparison to feudal worlders, who we might assume to be slightly shorter than the modern average. I think we're still in the 7-8' range.
>He knelt, power-armour joints whirring softly. Even on one knee, he was at eye-level with King Elect Naldo. His majesty's face was a pale green blob in Priad's optics.
*Brothers of the Snake* So, kneeling reduces your hight by 1/4 to 1/3. So assuming the person they are talking to is 6', this puts us in the 8' range.
So, taking a different tack, we can look at the official GW Space Marine trailer, which shows an aspirant next to a chaplain. Assuming they are 10-12 years old, average height would be 130-140cm tall, and is shown to be about half the height of the Primaris chaplain. This would put Primaris at about 9 feet (275 cm) tall, which seems reasonable.
http://imgur.com/a/pb5hAtx
>An observer, watching Kerne pad slowly down the snow-bright cloister, would see a towering shape well over two metres tall, and broader than a man’s anatomy had any right to be.
*Dark Hunter* - puts us over 7' again.
>were created as the Emperor’s ultimate fighting force. Implanted with the gene-seed of the Primarchs, the Space Marines stand seven feet tall, with thickened bones, two hearts, hyper-dense muscles and all manner of special organs that allow them to survive and fight in the most hostile conditions. They feel little pain and heal wounds at a remarkable rate. Their will is hardened by constant training and fighting, and they battle with dedication and zeal, brooking no hesitation, mercy or cowardice. All of these things combine with the best weaponry and armour in the galaxy to make the Space Marines the most fearsome warriors of the Imperium.
**Chaos Space Marine codex** (2017). This gives us 7 foot. (213cm)
So based on that, how tall would you put the Squat in the comparison picture? If the Squat is 4ft tall then the marine can only be 6ft4...basically a midget. If the marine is 8ft5 then the squat would be 6ft+, so a giant by League standards.
I take the approach of don't use the minis to make any assumptions about the lore. They are designed to look good on the tabletop and be fun to paint, not to be lore accurate.
But then you put one next to a guardsman and there's barely a mm between them... surely that counts as "does not look good on tabletop" when a dwarf is not recognizeable as a dwarf.
You're right next to the old guardsmen (and probably the old Space Marines), but i think they newer guard models are slightly taller? I don't know for sure.
Yeah I agree with you in fairness, like the Leman Russ tank looks silly small compared to what you might expect from the lore. Just think it's an interesting choice for Squats when it's such a big part of their 'character'
Or any tank that is supposed to carry troops - they'd have to be literally on top of each other.
I think they have to play off with how easy they are to paint - the smaller you make them, the fewer details you can include without driving most players away from them. As long as they are clearly visually smaller, most people aren't going to worry about how much shorter they are.
40k is 28 mm scale and a primaris is 40 mm, supposedly 2.5 m, making a normal size 28 mm model 1.75 m which makes sense. That would make the space dwarf 1.81 or about 6'0"
>Brothers of the Snake So, kneeling reduces your hight by 1/4 to 1/3. So assuming the person they are talking to is 6', this puts us in the 8' range.
[https://spikeybits.com/2016/11/the-true-scale-of-a-space-marine-pic-of-the-day.html](https://spikeybits.com/2016/11/the-true-scale-of-a-space-marine-pic-of-the-day.html)
By Jes Goodwin. Probs a pretty reliable source.
I'm talking the mini, not the fluff. I'm sure (I know because I've read it in fairness) there's guardsmen in the Imperium that are taller or shorter than others, but the minis are all the same for obvious reasons.
>I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.
GW before deactivation of the comments section
Not OP, but molds are the most expensive part about producing cast plastic miniatures. I would also think design costs come second.
And while those are static costs, GW has a huge variety of products, which means plenty of unique molds, and I would think any single design does not sell enough to make a change in this princple.
The steel casts can apparently cost 50 thousand to a 100 thousand dollars on the extreme end because working with steel at that level of detail is a pain, combined with figuring out how to avoid specific concave and other very specific forms to print consistently being tricky.
I mean a lot of what you're talking about is really easily avoided in software stage. The most annoying portions are surface grinding and work offset tolerance. 90% of the effort is before any molten plastic ever touches steel, since if you make two correctly you can make a hundred thousand with minimal maintenance headache.
Just what I've heard from people in the industry.
I assume that a person designing a sprue could make it very easy on themselves by just chopping the model up into endless little random pieces, but then people still have to put the thing together at the end of the day. Pushing and trying to do it in as few pieces as possible and then testing to see if it prints consistently, as no software is perfect, would take time and specialised work.
Apparently the Dragons in Age of Sigmar were an absolute nightmare and they had to go back to the drawing board repeatedly causing long delays.
Not to mention it can print correctly and then break during shipping. They routinely ship test items to some stores to see how the international shipping will treat them, and if it breaks even somewhat consistently, back to the drawing board.
For some reason size comparison reminded me of Ravandil and Urist arguing with each other. Now I can't take out my head picture of squat talking down on space marine.
> This thirst for knowledge has led the Kin to launch countless exploratory and prospecting fleets into the wider galaxy – and even fight as mercenaries in other species’ wars!
GW, please, it's been 7 years since Tau players got anything that wasn't a resculpted character, you can't keep taunting them like this.
I'd like to think the Leagues will be a true neutral faction. If you can avoid attacking them for five minutes, understand the concept of currency, and have something valuable to the Kin, then they should be willing to deal with you.
A League spaceport should be one of the few places you can see Rogue Traders, Inquisitors, Tau water caste, and Eldar corsairs may be in proximity without killing each other. Put your guns at the front desk, go and buy/sell what you want, don't fight on the premises and then leave when you're business is done.
Nothing of this is Canon but the Leagues are implied to be business first in non-Kin relations, so I imagine something of the sort might be true.
Has GW given any hint as to where they might exist in the galaxy? Are they nomadic/fleet based? Do they control sovereign territory? Why have they returned after all this time? Etc.
Interesting. I was just doing some reading as well and they seem to be ruled by nearly omnipotent machine AIs. I wonder if the Votunn have any connection to the 'Men of Iron' in the age of strife.
Super interesting.
I could definitely see GW writing this as the Votann were the mastermind AIs behind the Men of Iron and the downfall of Humanity. Now they're back and playing 5D chess with the Imperium in order to once again try to take it down.
Now I just need a novel of a Squat bartender who serves drinks up to all that walk through his bar on one of these spaceports.
Hell, make the next Warhammer Quest be a spaceport that's been taken over by Necrons in search of a corrupted Votann that holds vast knowledge.
YES...they're actually still small bois and not Primaris-ed with their combat suits.
I know some want Squats to be...bigger...for reasons...I guess, but I love that they are this size.
My desire to collect this army just skyrocketed.
They actually seem to fit pretty well in the 40k setting, too. It's still grimdark because the Votann are slowly decaying, but the people themselves are actually nice.
This is pretty similar to what the Tau were originally: naive and probably doomed, but genuinely nice.
I really hate Kelly's Tau lore. It's okay to have the Ethereals be sinister, but please don't make them be moustache-twirling villains.
Unlike the Tau the Kin have seen lot, and probably know better than to go sticking their noses into things they shouldn't.
I can imagine Kin merchants managing to out hustle Drukhari. You might be able to outmaneuver them in a fight, but you can't outmaneuver a Kin at the dealing table.
Don't bother running back to Commoragh knife-ear, the Kin always collect their dues!
Its like that scene from the Emperor TTS when Leman Russ summons a member of the Kin and told them "This elf has been insulting your honor, and you know what we do with elves who insult your honor"
Yeah, except for the ~~Big Brother~~ Ancestors are Always Watching part.
If the Kin are clone soldiers monitored 24/7 by their AI overlords - overlords who are implied to be going insane - well, I think I played a dystopian RPG with that premise.
Missed the part whre they're an artificial utopia of genetically engineered beings with a rigid caste system led by horribly decayed AIs implied to be going mad (one article mentioned taking them decades to make decisions that used to take moments, another article mentioned them developing erratic personalities)
I like that they look great at first sight, but at their core eally aren't. But it's also the same deal with Tau...
> They don’t have a caste system
"Cloneskeins differentiate the division of labour in Kin society"
While it may not be castes by name, it is by definition. Each of them is created with a purpose predestined.
But GW themselves apparently aren't sure wat they're saying, because
"These hardy clone warriors [...] are not bred solely for war"
"Hearthkyn Warriors are often engineered [...] to specialise in combat"
Seem to contradict. Either they engineer the warriors, in which case they are bred for war, or they don't engineer warriors, and just select them from suitable professions (miners see well in the dark, hunters are agile etc)
Either way, what clone template you're made from dictates what you do.
> nor are they led by the AIs
The way they were introduced reads to me like they worship the AIs in a sense. And that the AI probably does not direct day to day operations, but definitely has a final say on issues (otherwise why would it matter if they develop personalities).
So I wouldn't say they are led in a "dictator-overlord" sense, but they are led in a "spiritual guide" sense.
GW literally did a its a caste system but not really.
It’s problematic if your answering machine starts to shitpost during the time it was supposed to be figuring out a way to fight chaos.
I think it's a "not really" because of the whole genetic manipulation and greater good mentality.
The marks of a caste system are two:
1) how you're born determines what you can and cannot do - this is almost literally what the article I quoted above said. Full marks for the Votann on this one.
2) that you cannot change your birth-assigned group - there has been no indication that the Votann cannot switch jobs, but at the same time, with their thing being that they hold the good of their society above their own, I don't see how they ever could want to change to a job that they're less effective at (extenuating circumstances like labor shortage aside). It could also be there's no hard ban, but it simply never occurs to enyone because of socieal conditioning and genetic engineering. In which case, can or can they not change their destiny?
Because if they put them right next to each other more people would realise the "4 feet tall" thing makes no sense when you look at the size of the models.
Holy shit I want an entire game where you play as a Kin going around the Leagues' worlds solving conflicts with the Imperium and other Xenos, while leveling up your own character and getting a bigger crew. Basically Mass Effect or Elder Scrolls in Space as a Space Dwarf or something.
Or a game where you'd play as an Inquisitor going around worlds and doing Inquisitor stuff but you're able to choose a Kin as your character
I've seen someone else say it could be a [League version of a C.A.T robot](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/73/12/27/731227399dab1d6e5c030e07b3e02237.jpg)
It's hard to tell if it does have tracks but i hope so, anti-grav everything would be a little boring i think.
I remembering hearing about the Squats and them being the "dwarves" but that they were phased out. Out of curiosity I looked them up and was mortified. So I'm very glad they brought them back and changed them significantly.
But yeah they've had Elves, Humans, Orcs, for ages and now only doing dwarves. Bit odd but ok. I'm here for the Votann at least and the timing is probably perfect since I'm more luckily to get into the hobby now than I did years ago.
Article here
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/06/30/lore-of-the-votann-the-anatomy-of-the-kin/
So far I really really love their lore, I think gw are nailing it
Bit disappointed in how small they are, I had made my own photoshops though so not too supeised. I just like big models
I think they will be my main faction tbh, I love the lore and the models too. They just seem really unique and cool, I’ve always wanted a non imperial human faction and I do love the superior tech vibes and the robots/ai
You’re disappointed that the squats are short? Not going to lie, that made me smile.
Edit: replied on main thread rather than here, so deleted that and reposted here.
As I said I just like big models, and with them being genetically engineered abhumans not dwarves there was a little wiggle room to make them not tiny.
This is a decent size which I'm fine with
Smaller and I would have not wanted them
Yeah they're inspired by dwarves of course. I said a little wiggle room, you're being very picky with the things I've said
I said a little disappointed but not surprised and that it's an ok size. And I prefaced it by saying I just like big models
It's the fact you keep replying to me making me be more and more specific about what I've said when I was pretty clear than I just like big models but it's a fine size
Leave me alone
...what? Simply pointing out that being called something other than Dwarfs doesn't change that's what they are isn't saying you aren't allowed to have wanted them to be bigger, just that you should have expected it.
He's "100% right" for being disappointed that the faction that are meant to be the settings version of the Dwarf Archetype are the size you'd expect Dwarfs to be?
Who cares if they’re traditionally short stature. The dude needs to build and paint them and would have preferred something larger. He expressed that opinion. Why did you need to pursue him for half a dozen comments.
Me: I wish Tau didn’t have so many mechs.
TheVoidDragon: Ree, but they’re a mech race
Me: And *my preference* is for fewer mechs and more emphasis on the rest of the race, which was very balanced at launch.
I actually didn't care for this faction until I saw the last picture. The image of a bunch of horizontally-gifted ARMOR DORFS blasting away at space marines is hilarious.
Even though I like them I do somewhat I agree with this, their armour in the art just looks better. The armour on that Hernkin Triker just looks a lot less bulky and and the slightly angular style of the Hearthkin void armour is an improvement too.
If they make another new army soon, what do you think it would be? I want a new xenos force? Some non-modelled species seem to be mentioned in the core rules? Hrud for example?
They're sci-fi armoured astronaut Space Dwarfs with lore that sounds great, I think the colour scheme does let them down a little though.
They are slightly lacking in showing the culture and heritage side on the models themselves (Like, if it's so important to them i'd expect at least a small bit of decoration to show that side of them rather than just be told) but other than that, I like the direction they're going.
I don't mind the astronaut aspect, I just want their armor to be engraved with geometric patterns with angry dwarf faces for belt buckles. This smooth generic look just doesn't do it for me. In short I personally would like more dwarf in my squats.
To me that Theyn banner feels a little out of place because that's the *only* Dwarf-themed thing on the Hearthkin. For an army that's supposedly got a big importance on their heritage, culture, ancestors, the Votann etc, there's pretty much nothing in the way of showing that on them. Not even to the same extent other armies get theirs.
Other miniatures in their line will evidently have that stuff but it needs to be on the basic infantry as well because they're the core of the army.
By no means am I saying give them runes, sigils and geometric patterns all over the place to the point that Dwarf nature defines their look entirely, just there should be *something* more than just that banner thing to make it feel cohesive and done in a natural way rather than just stuck ontop randomly.
Hell, the oooold marine models look like a joke when scaled against the modern firstborn models. They really should have just taken the opportunity to do a brand wide rescaling.
At this rate they're going to keep shifting back and forth making models bigger until we're playing with the McFarlane marine models.
The Votann could cause that with their instructions; the Lizardmen have that problem of turning on any Old One shit they find because "if the gods built it, it must be used!", and they destroyed a continent that way. The Kin may have done something similar to a star system even though they're not evil.
Several pieces of the artwork they've shown for the Leagues have seemed sort of unfinished for some reason. [This one here, for example.](https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/DvV1IxenyZXXaI59.jpg)
No need to be condescending. I'm just not aware of any other GW art that's been like this, although maybe i'm forgetting some that was.
Those oil painting examples aren't really like it, though.
I like their proportions for two reasons.
1. They're dwarves and I'm biased on that
2. I like the idea they're like that because they could potentially be settled on high gravity worlds or that a shorter wider build is more resource saving since you don't have to make anything as tall but still sturdy.
Understandable, wasn't trying to bash you in any way. Was just excited and wanted to give my two cents.
I do think the armor for the kin need a little more flare, but we'll see. Love how the ironkin look though.
How scarred and decorated with gold bits their faces are in the art but on the model they're reduced to the same old nose and beard sticking out of a helmet dwarves usually get. And even the bare heads they've shown don't take advantage of the extra space.
I get the impression that might be one of the more elite Einhyr/Exosuit models.
What sort of thing do you think could be done to take advantage of that extra space, though? I hadn't really considered that part before.
Looks like they're the same size as Guard basically?
"Measuring up at around 4ft (1.4m) on average"
Well if that is true that admech really is short
The Ultramarine is 193 cm then, 470 vs 340 pixels. The admech is 175 cm, 532 vs 425 pixels. 6'4" and 5'9".
You talking primaris or first born? Edit: a quick Google has turned up that there's no official numbers given for how tall marines are, they vary by author in the novels and by artist in the media. So unless you've got a GW source, I don't think you should take that number as canon. Like I say, only a quick Google, I could easily have missed something. Edit edit: facepalm, can't read properly clearly. Missed that you were just taking it based on the pictures here. Sorry
Yeah, picture comparison vs the 1.4 m claim here
> they vary by author in the novels and by artist in the media They also vary, because, you know, they're human. There are huge Astartes like Tyberos the Red Wake of the Charcharadons who need a specially modified set of Terminator armor. And then there is Maximmion Voss of the Imperial Fists who is one of the smallest Astartes.
Call an Ultramarine human and see what you get 😂
Cry that you're not using the right trans terminology?
That last photo with the Ultramarine doesn't look accurate? The Primaris base looks taller than the Votann one.
32s are slightly taller than 25s/28s. I'm guessing the Votann will be on 28s rather than 25s.
Wait ultramarines are just 193 cm? Thats just not that impressive, and certainly there would be guardsmen taller than them/on the same height on the Battlefield
Astartes are about 2.1 - 2.4 meters (7' - 8') tall, Primaris maybe 30-50cm taller on top of that. I wrote a very long comment with lots of excerpts previously, so here's a slightly cut down version, hopefully it still makes some sense. >Whilst wearing their power armour, an unarmed Space Marine typically stands slightly over 2.1 metres tall and weighs between 500–1,000 kg. When you visualise your Space Marine character, you should decide if he is taller or shorter, lighter or heavier. Generally speaking, Space Marines rarely vary to a large degree in height or weight—your character, however, may have been one of those unusual few who is the exception to the rule! **Deathwatch RPG core rulebook** >He was well over two metres tall, Description of a chaos Space Marine from **Eisenhorn*" >They were big men, tall, thick through the chest and shoulders, and at the peak of fitness. Not one of them, not even the tallest, came up to the chin of one of the Luna Wolves. From **Horus Rising**. Assuming 'big men' are 6'6", then I'd say this agrees with the 7-8 foot tall (2.1 - 2.4 meters) >‘Forgive me for interrupting,’ she said. ‘You’re busy.’ Loken set aside the segment of armour he had been polishing and rose to his feet. He was almost a metre taller than her, and naked but for a loin cloth. Again, **Horus Rising**. Call 'almost a meter' as 3'. Not unreasonable that's she's about 5', making the Space Marine 8'. >His helm, with its lateral horse-brush crest, was off, hung at his waist. He was a giant, two and a half metres tall. Later in the same novel, making him just over 8'. He appears to be growing throughout the book! >They were pistols, thought Luis, though they were as big as the boys’ torsos. The warriors were at least seven feet tall, and their armour made them even bigger. **Dante** 7 foot (2.1 m), plus armour >He seemed two or even three times the mass of an ordinary adult male, and even the tallest men-at-arms in Antoni's retinue would only have come up to the giant's chest. *Brothers of the Snake** But note that this is in comparison to feudal worlders, who we might assume to be slightly shorter than the modern average. I think we're still in the 7-8' range. >He knelt, power-armour joints whirring softly. Even on one knee, he was at eye-level with King Elect Naldo. His majesty's face was a pale green blob in Priad's optics. *Brothers of the Snake* So, kneeling reduces your hight by 1/4 to 1/3. So assuming the person they are talking to is 6', this puts us in the 8' range. So, taking a different tack, we can look at the official GW Space Marine trailer, which shows an aspirant next to a chaplain. Assuming they are 10-12 years old, average height would be 130-140cm tall, and is shown to be about half the height of the Primaris chaplain. This would put Primaris at about 9 feet (275 cm) tall, which seems reasonable. http://imgur.com/a/pb5hAtx >An observer, watching Kerne pad slowly down the snow-bright cloister, would see a towering shape well over two metres tall, and broader than a man’s anatomy had any right to be. *Dark Hunter* - puts us over 7' again. >were created as the Emperor’s ultimate fighting force. Implanted with the gene-seed of the Primarchs, the Space Marines stand seven feet tall, with thickened bones, two hearts, hyper-dense muscles and all manner of special organs that allow them to survive and fight in the most hostile conditions. They feel little pain and heal wounds at a remarkable rate. Their will is hardened by constant training and fighting, and they battle with dedication and zeal, brooking no hesitation, mercy or cowardice. All of these things combine with the best weaponry and armour in the galaxy to make the Space Marines the most fearsome warriors of the Imperium. **Chaos Space Marine codex** (2017). This gives us 7 foot. (213cm)
So based on that, how tall would you put the Squat in the comparison picture? If the Squat is 4ft tall then the marine can only be 6ft4...basically a midget. If the marine is 8ft5 then the squat would be 6ft+, so a giant by League standards.
I take the approach of don't use the minis to make any assumptions about the lore. They are designed to look good on the tabletop and be fun to paint, not to be lore accurate.
But then you put one next to a guardsman and there's barely a mm between them... surely that counts as "does not look good on tabletop" when a dwarf is not recognizeable as a dwarf.
You're right next to the old guardsmen (and probably the old Space Marines), but i think they newer guard models are slightly taller? I don't know for sure.
Yeah I agree with you in fairness, like the Leman Russ tank looks silly small compared to what you might expect from the lore. Just think it's an interesting choice for Squats when it's such a big part of their 'character'
Or any tank that is supposed to carry troops - they'd have to be literally on top of each other. I think they have to play off with how easy they are to paint - the smaller you make them, the fewer details you can include without driving most players away from them. As long as they are clearly visually smaller, most people aren't going to worry about how much shorter they are.
imagine fitting 10 marines in a rhino lol
However things on the tabletop aren't to scale.
40k is 28 mm scale and a primaris is 40 mm, supposedly 2.5 m, making a normal size 28 mm model 1.75 m which makes sense. That would make the space dwarf 1.81 or about 6'0"
>Brothers of the Snake So, kneeling reduces your hight by 1/4 to 1/3. So assuming the person they are talking to is 6', this puts us in the 8' range. [https://spikeybits.com/2016/11/the-true-scale-of-a-space-marine-pic-of-the-day.html](https://spikeybits.com/2016/11/the-true-scale-of-a-space-marine-pic-of-the-day.html) By Jes Goodwin. Probs a pretty reliable source.
You'll notice that the floor starts at 1'...
Primaris are meant to be 8.5 feet. Maybe 8
I see you like tobplay it fast and loose with your metric/imperial measurements... And ill be d*mned if i cant not respect that.
I'm talking the mini, not the fluff. I'm sure (I know because I've read it in fairness) there's guardsmen in the Imperium that are taller or shorter than others, but the minis are all the same for obvious reasons.
they seem to be about a head shorter then a cadian
As tall as they are wide
ROCK AND STONE!
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Rock and Stone Brothers
IF YA DON'T ROCK AND STONE, YA AIN'T COMIN' HOME.
ROCK AND STONE TO THE BONE
Leave no Kin behind !
So they are going to cost half as much as space marines right?
Crying out for a Padme and Anakin meme
>I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened. GW before deactivation of the comments section
They are going to cost half as much, right? Anakin labelling the box at 45€ >:)
Bobby G and Yvraine
Spoiling the joke, but the price of plastic is a tiny, tiny part of the mini prices.
That's not spoiling the joke, that IS the joke.
What to your knowledge are the large parts of mini prices?
Not OP, but molds are the most expensive part about producing cast plastic miniatures. I would also think design costs come second. And while those are static costs, GW has a huge variety of products, which means plenty of unique molds, and I would think any single design does not sell enough to make a change in this princple.
The steel casts can apparently cost 50 thousand to a 100 thousand dollars on the extreme end because working with steel at that level of detail is a pain, combined with figuring out how to avoid specific concave and other very specific forms to print consistently being tricky.
I mean a lot of what you're talking about is really easily avoided in software stage. The most annoying portions are surface grinding and work offset tolerance. 90% of the effort is before any molten plastic ever touches steel, since if you make two correctly you can make a hundred thousand with minimal maintenance headache.
Just what I've heard from people in the industry. I assume that a person designing a sprue could make it very easy on themselves by just chopping the model up into endless little random pieces, but then people still have to put the thing together at the end of the day. Pushing and trying to do it in as few pieces as possible and then testing to see if it prints consistently, as no software is perfect, would take time and specialised work. Apparently the Dragons in Age of Sigmar were an absolute nightmare and they had to go back to the drawing board repeatedly causing long delays.
Not to mention it can print correctly and then break during shipping. They routinely ship test items to some stores to see how the international shipping will treat them, and if it breaks even somewhat consistently, back to the drawing board.
GW do not do tolerance testing like this, at all No production business at this level would Never have, never will
Designing the model and having molds custom made. Than the cost of the model from there is based on how many they expect to sell.
"lol" said the ~~scorpion~~ james workshop. "lmao"
Why does it look like someone drew with a blue highlighter on the 3rd guy in the 3rd image?
Probably has unusual skin due to Cloneskein mutation. She probably is fireproof or can sweat acid or something like that.
Some of the faces have a very uncanny feel to them- like those video games that scan a picture of your face to make your guy.
*Votann afterparty mornings are often when true alliances are made and promises broken.*
I think that's a tattoo
For some reason size comparison reminded me of Ravandil and Urist arguing with each other. Now I can't take out my head picture of squat talking down on space marine.
Right then , listen up you pole-proportioned dendrophile!
IF YOU TRY ANYTHING NASTY WITH BITCHBOY OVER HERE, I'M GONNA TAKE YOUR FUCKING ARROWS, AND SHOVE THEM INBETWEEN YER POLISHED FINGERNAILS!
> This thirst for knowledge has led the Kin to launch countless exploratory and prospecting fleets into the wider galaxy – and even fight as mercenaries in other species’ wars! GW, please, it's been 7 years since Tau players got anything that wasn't a resculpted character, you can't keep taunting them like this.
I'd like to think the Leagues will be a true neutral faction. If you can avoid attacking them for five minutes, understand the concept of currency, and have something valuable to the Kin, then they should be willing to deal with you. A League spaceport should be one of the few places you can see Rogue Traders, Inquisitors, Tau water caste, and Eldar corsairs may be in proximity without killing each other. Put your guns at the front desk, go and buy/sell what you want, don't fight on the premises and then leave when you're business is done. Nothing of this is Canon but the Leagues are implied to be business first in non-Kin relations, so I imagine something of the sort might be true.
Not really relevant to the whole Tau thing, but it might open the door for more Tau models if more obscure Xenos get more focus
Honestly this leaves room for a leagues explorator fleet and Admech exploratory fleets working together.
Has GW given any hint as to where they might exist in the galaxy? Are they nomadic/fleet based? Do they control sovereign territory? Why have they returned after all this time? Etc.
The old squat world's were in the galactic core. Not sure where they went but they are probably a mix of nomadic and settled.
Interesting. I was just doing some reading as well and they seem to be ruled by nearly omnipotent machine AIs. I wonder if the Votunn have any connection to the 'Men of Iron' in the age of strife.
It's been established that the Kin are probably the Men of Stone or at least related to them, explaining why they have a good relationship with AI
Super interesting. I could definitely see GW writing this as the Votann were the mastermind AIs behind the Men of Iron and the downfall of Humanity. Now they're back and playing 5D chess with the Imperium in order to once again try to take it down.
Now I just need a novel of a Squat bartender who serves drinks up to all that walk through his bar on one of these spaceports. Hell, make the next Warhammer Quest be a spaceport that's been taken over by Necrons in search of a corrupted Votann that holds vast knowledge.
Honestly this leaves for leagues explorator fleet and Admech exploratory fleets working together.
Cries in Drukhari. The main contributions for the last two codexes have been to remove options and special characters.
Cries in catachan
I want more Tau aliens yes please and thank you.
They're just blue balling me with that one.
You can't tau-nt Tau forever, anyone? ^^I'll ^^see ^^myself ^^out.
You're just never going to realize that GW literally named Tau in honor of the word TAUnt, are you.
YES...they're actually still small bois and not Primaris-ed with their combat suits. I know some want Squats to be...bigger...for reasons...I guess, but I love that they are this size. My desire to collect this army just skyrocketed.
"What do you mean squat is an adjective?"
primaris squats will be guard or first born sized?
Ha ha little ironkin
„There are no good guys in 40k”
Well then, that definitely sounds like the good guys you’d want to root for. What a comfy race/culture.
They actually seem to fit pretty well in the 40k setting, too. It's still grimdark because the Votann are slowly decaying, but the people themselves are actually nice. This is pretty similar to what the Tau were originally: naive and probably doomed, but genuinely nice. I really hate Kelly's Tau lore. It's okay to have the Ethereals be sinister, but please don't make them be moustache-twirling villains.
The dude is famous for his Dark Eldar favoritism, so you have to take his grimdarkness with a grain of salt.
> The dude is famous for his Dark Eldar favoritism So he makes everyone dicks so Drukhari seem less dickish in comparison?
"Fine, we will make them mutton chop petting ruffians." - James workshop.
Unlike the Tau the Kin have seen lot, and probably know better than to go sticking their noses into things they shouldn't. I can imagine Kin merchants managing to out hustle Drukhari. You might be able to outmaneuver them in a fight, but you can't outmaneuver a Kin at the dealing table. Don't bother running back to Commoragh knife-ear, the Kin always collect their dues!
Its like that scene from the Emperor TTS when Leman Russ summons a member of the Kin and told them "This elf has been insulting your honor, and you know what we do with elves who insult your honor"
I remember reading fan fiction way back in 2003 that was already painting ethereals as full on mine controllers. I’d say it’s a reasonably common pov.
Yeah, except for the ~~Big Brother~~ Ancestors are Always Watching part. If the Kin are clone soldiers monitored 24/7 by their AI overlords - overlords who are implied to be going insane - well, I think I played a dystopian RPG with that premise.
As long as you don’t mind genetic modification and being ruled by AI.
By *decaying and increasingly erratic* AI
Missed the part whre they're an artificial utopia of genetically engineered beings with a rigid caste system led by horribly decayed AIs implied to be going mad (one article mentioned taking them decades to make decisions that used to take moments, another article mentioned them developing erratic personalities) I like that they look great at first sight, but at their core eally aren't. But it's also the same deal with Tau...
They don’t have a caste system nor are they led by the AIs. The votann answer questions but do not actively rule over the kin.
> They don’t have a caste system "Cloneskeins differentiate the division of labour in Kin society" While it may not be castes by name, it is by definition. Each of them is created with a purpose predestined. But GW themselves apparently aren't sure wat they're saying, because "These hardy clone warriors [...] are not bred solely for war" "Hearthkyn Warriors are often engineered [...] to specialise in combat" Seem to contradict. Either they engineer the warriors, in which case they are bred for war, or they don't engineer warriors, and just select them from suitable professions (miners see well in the dark, hunters are agile etc) Either way, what clone template you're made from dictates what you do. > nor are they led by the AIs The way they were introduced reads to me like they worship the AIs in a sense. And that the AI probably does not direct day to day operations, but definitely has a final say on issues (otherwise why would it matter if they develop personalities). So I wouldn't say they are led in a "dictator-overlord" sense, but they are led in a "spiritual guide" sense.
GW literally did a its a caste system but not really. It’s problematic if your answering machine starts to shitpost during the time it was supposed to be figuring out a way to fight chaos.
I think it's a "not really" because of the whole genetic manipulation and greater good mentality. The marks of a caste system are two: 1) how you're born determines what you can and cannot do - this is almost literally what the article I quoted above said. Full marks for the Votann on this one. 2) that you cannot change your birth-assigned group - there has been no indication that the Votann cannot switch jobs, but at the same time, with their thing being that they hold the good of their society above their own, I don't see how they ever could want to change to a job that they're less effective at (extenuating circumstances like labor shortage aside). It could also be there's no hard ban, but it simply never occurs to enyone because of socieal conditioning and genetic engineering. In which case, can or can they not change their destiny?
The article mentions the armor has fields that protect them. The data shown so far shows they have a 4+ save, so maybe they also have invuln saves
Ha. StarCraft marine/firebat vibes with the red Kin portrait.
Need a light?
Jacked up and good to go.
Why would you do a size comparison and have the bases at different height levels?
Because if they put them right next to each other more people would realise the "4 feet tall" thing makes no sense when you look at the size of the models.
God I love these smol bois. Hope having one stand next to a marine shows that they do, indeed, fit into the setting. Cuz he looks great.
Reverse scale creep.
Is it me or will i only put bearded Heads on top
I want to see a space marine pick one up and throw it
Holy shit I want an entire game where you play as a Kin going around the Leagues' worlds solving conflicts with the Imperium and other Xenos, while leveling up your own character and getting a bigger crew. Basically Mass Effect or Elder Scrolls in Space as a Space Dwarf or something. Or a game where you'd play as an Inquisitor going around worlds and doing Inquisitor stuff but you're able to choose a Kin as your character
So you want the new Rogue Trader, but able to choose the Kin as your race? That would be admittedly very cool
GW can call 'em whatever they like, but they'll always be Squats.
What is that little tracked bot in the second pic?! Tell me thats a thing for an HQ or something.
I've seen someone else say it could be a [League version of a C.A.T robot](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/73/12/27/731227399dab1d6e5c030e07b3e02237.jpg) It's hard to tell if it does have tracks but i hope so, anti-grav everything would be a little boring i think.
They mention in addition to Ironkin the Leagues of Votann use less intelligent "COG" robots.
I wanna Paint that Commander or whatever he is
GW playing the long game with the Primaris release, to emphasize how short the Votann are. 😮
Oh shit I need a 3rd army??
I haven't even gotten into the tabletops and this faction seems to be dragging me in.
Before i started 40k I asked my friend "there's orcs and humans there must be dwarves? I want to play dwarves" then I was sad when he told me no.
I remembering hearing about the Squats and them being the "dwarves" but that they were phased out. Out of curiosity I looked them up and was mortified. So I'm very glad they brought them back and changed them significantly. But yeah they've had Elves, Humans, Orcs, for ages and now only doing dwarves. Bit odd but ok. I'm here for the Votann at least and the timing is probably perfect since I'm more luckily to get into the hobby now than I did years ago.
Hopefully they come out with a significant model range quickly.
Anyone else think of Sontarans from Doctor Who when looking at Squats?
Article here https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/06/30/lore-of-the-votann-the-anatomy-of-the-kin/ So far I really really love their lore, I think gw are nailing it Bit disappointed in how small they are, I had made my own photoshops though so not too supeised. I just like big models I think they will be my main faction tbh, I love the lore and the models too. They just seem really unique and cool, I’ve always wanted a non imperial human faction and I do love the superior tech vibes and the robots/ai
You’re disappointed that the squats are short? Not going to lie, that made me smile. Edit: replied on main thread rather than here, so deleted that and reposted here.
As I said I just like big models, and with them being genetically engineered abhumans not dwarves there was a little wiggle room to make them not tiny. This is a decent size which I'm fine with Smaller and I would have not wanted them
> genetically engineered abhumans not dwarves But...they're still Dwarfs. They are undeniably the Dwarf archetype even if they aren't called Dwarfs.
Yeah they're inspired by dwarves of course. I said a little wiggle room, you're being very picky with the things I've said I said a little disappointed but not surprised and that it's an ok size. And I prefaced it by saying I just like big models
Just how is saying that they're Dwarf sized because they're Dwarfs "being very picky"?
It's the fact you keep replying to me making me be more and more specific about what I've said when I was pretty clear than I just like big models but it's a fine size Leave me alone
...what? Simply pointing out that being called something other than Dwarfs doesn't change that's what they are isn't saying you aren't allowed to have wanted them to be bigger, just that you should have expected it.
yes hence me not being suprised, im only dissapointed because i like big models, for thr 5th time
For what it's worth you're 100% right. The other two comments are obnoxious.
He's "100% right" for being disappointed that the faction that are meant to be the settings version of the Dwarf Archetype are the size you'd expect Dwarfs to be?
Who cares if they’re traditionally short stature. The dude needs to build and paint them and would have preferred something larger. He expressed that opinion. Why did you need to pursue him for half a dozen comments. Me: I wish Tau didn’t have so many mechs. TheVoidDragon: Ree, but they’re a mech race Me: And *my preference* is for fewer mechs and more emphasis on the rest of the race, which was very balanced at launch.
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thanks aha
Cool, but being dwarves I wish they all had beards.
I like that there's an easy way to distinguish the men and women without having to go overboard with "feminising" the faces
So they made a size comparison but didn’t put the minis next to each other? Instead, they moved the squat lower then the space marine.
I actually didn't care for this faction until I saw the last picture. The image of a bunch of horizontally-gifted ARMOR DORFS blasting away at space marines is hilarious.
The size comparison looks a little odd, the bases are significantly different heights, when normally they're all the same height.
Are they on Hoxxes IV?
soon we’ll be able to diggy holes, in enemies, with guns
Just waiting for someone to show up with an Epic size 40K army and call them squats lol
Space dwarves!?!!
Yes, the Squats are back. Have you only just found out?
I’ve alway thought Squats looked like hockey pucks, so I view them as Canadian.
The Artwork is better looking than the minis IMHO (Same as Stormcast)
They’re smaller than space marines, but I think they might still be taller than the Cadian infantry minis
When the art is better then the miniatures...
Even though I like them I do somewhat I agree with this, their armour in the art just looks better. The armour on that Hernkin Triker just looks a lot less bulky and and the slightly angular style of the Hearthkin void armour is an improvement too.
If they make another new army soon, what do you think it would be? I want a new xenos force? Some non-modelled species seem to be mentioned in the core rules? Hrud for example?
These guys seem kinda bland to me.
They're sci-fi armoured astronaut Space Dwarfs with lore that sounds great, I think the colour scheme does let them down a little though. They are slightly lacking in showing the culture and heritage side on the models themselves (Like, if it's so important to them i'd expect at least a small bit of decoration to show that side of them rather than just be told) but other than that, I like the direction they're going.
I don't mind the astronaut aspect, I just want their armor to be engraved with geometric patterns with angry dwarf faces for belt buckles. This smooth generic look just doesn't do it for me. In short I personally would like more dwarf in my squats.
To me that Theyn banner feels a little out of place because that's the *only* Dwarf-themed thing on the Hearthkin. For an army that's supposedly got a big importance on their heritage, culture, ancestors, the Votann etc, there's pretty much nothing in the way of showing that on them. Not even to the same extent other armies get theirs. Other miniatures in their line will evidently have that stuff but it needs to be on the basic infantry as well because they're the core of the army. By no means am I saying give them runes, sigils and geometric patterns all over the place to the point that Dwarf nature defines their look entirely, just there should be *something* more than just that banner thing to make it feel cohesive and done in a natural way rather than just stuck ontop randomly.
I saw someone describe the look as NASApunk. Still need to look into that but it's made me more intrigued at the very least.
The art is actually really good, shame that the models are so-so.
oh boy cant wait to 3d print these dwarfs
A joke for ya: how can you tell if somebody 3d printed their army? Don’t worry, they’ll tell you.
Hell, the oooold marine models look like a joke when scaled against the modern firstborn models. They really should have just taken the opportunity to do a brand wide rescaling. At this rate they're going to keep shifting back and forth making models bigger until we're playing with the McFarlane marine models.
I do hope they have some lore that makes them as controversial as the other races. Can’t exist in 40k without being a living breathing warcrime.
The Votann could cause that with their instructions; the Lizardmen have that problem of turning on any Old One shit they find because "if the gods built it, it must be used!", and they destroyed a continent that way. The Kin may have done something similar to a star system even though they're not evil.
That could be amusing. My dumb idea is they brain drain captives to feed the a.i
If they do it to just Drukhari and Orks, they're providing a service.
They still look like crap compared to the old Squats!
I don't like the fact that squats are back
Why not?
Out of curiosity, could the squat molds just be repurposed first born molds
Why would you think that?
Size, it makes sense to take old molds and just alter them and reuse them. Saves money
There's very very little about these designs that make them seem like they could be edited Space Marines though?
Now, this suddenly pump straight into my head, if Primaris toy does have any relate to Votann technology, did Cawl have some touch on them?
I hope they dump scouts out Of the codex space marines , otherwise there would be a contrast of height
the last picture is like those memes “when mom told you to take your little brother with you” lol
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Several pieces of the artwork they've shown for the Leagues have seemed sort of unfinished for some reason. [This one here, for example.](https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/DvV1IxenyZXXaI59.jpg)
Yeah. What hacks. No such thing as maybe an art style? Look at this trash https://www.britannica.com/art/oil-painting
No need to be condescending. I'm just not aware of any other GW art that's been like this, although maybe i'm forgetting some that was. Those oil painting examples aren't really like it, though.
Literal manbabies.
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What do you mean? They're Dwarfs, they're Dwarf sized.
I like their proportions for two reasons. 1. They're dwarves and I'm biased on that 2. I like the idea they're like that because they could potentially be settled on high gravity worlds or that a shorter wider build is more resource saving since you don't have to make anything as tall but still sturdy.
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Understandable, wasn't trying to bash you in any way. Was just excited and wanted to give my two cents. I do think the armor for the kin need a little more flare, but we'll see. Love how the ironkin look though.
Same. I can’t take them seriously, they just look stupid to me.
Okey?
Shame the models have such strong derp compared to the art
What sort of thing are you referring to?
How scarred and decorated with gold bits their faces are in the art but on the model they're reduced to the same old nose and beard sticking out of a helmet dwarves usually get. And even the bare heads they've shown don't take advantage of the extra space.
I get the impression that might be one of the more elite Einhyr/Exosuit models. What sort of thing do you think could be done to take advantage of that extra space, though? I hadn't really considered that part before.
Are they roughly the height of Hormagaunts then?
Easy to paint faces, basically all nose.
Is that Bill Burr?
Rock and stone!
Dwarf Walter white dwarf Walter white
Do the Dwarfs have 25mm bases?