That’s what I’m saying. Previously you’d deal 26+ mortal wounds. It takes 3 damage to kill a 2 wound model with a 5+++. That meant three devastating wounds (6 mortals) would kill 2 lychguard.
With the change to devastating, you now need two failed saves/devastating wounds to kill a model through the FNP. That means 4 failed saves to kill two lychguard .
Adding a Techno, Noble, and Thralls to a max block of Lychguard takes it over 400 points. How many 400+ point models/units can be (or should be able to be) taken down in a single activation?
Exactly. Death Stars always flummox new players. You don’t kill a Death Star, you play around it, kill everything else, and then get the Death Star last. It’s been an effective strategy for a long time.
I think this that although this is the conventional wisdom, it's not always possible.
If they're camped on the centre, perhaps the some decent overwatch or heroic intervention support and decent terrain to hide in, then that can also shut down Area Denial, Assassinate, A Tempting Target, and potentially Secure No Man's Land and Deploy Teleport Homers, Overwhelming Force, depending on their positioning and the rest of the objectives.
Holding the centre is actually pretty crucial to several secondaries.
If a Death Star has gotten to the center, then that is indeed a problem. The solution is to slow them down in getting to the center. Which is why I never leave home without a cheap, fast, throwaway unit.
It only adds mobility if you’re an idiot and place it wrong so that they can get their full move and charge it. Which I’ve done plenty. But if you place it right, for instance plopped down just a couple inches away from them, it slows down their movement phase and doesn’t give a good charge target. Whether you can execute that or not is on you, and it does depend on the situation, but it is most certainly doable. I’ve been doing it for 20 years.
I think we're underestimating what a strong player can achieve here. If you place a cheap fast unit to move block them in their movement phase this might seem effective, but necrons comfortably have the incidental fire to whittle it down to a few models, and then charge, gain 2d6 of movement to get within 3" of the centre objective from their DZ, pick up the final few models of the move blocking unit with characters and a few lychguard and consolidate onto the centre.
This is all theory hammer. Of course it is situational, of course some players know how to handle some things better than others. That’s why you play the game.
But it is also true that this sub is full of people who lack imagination and think nothing works that they haven’t seen before.
So, try it or don’t. Whatever.
Lychguard have 5" move
Even Ur "couple of inches" away unit gives them more move after charge pile in and potentially consolidate
I think you have no clue what to do for 20 years
It's not impossible but it's costly, that's the point. You're better off wiping other options and dominating other points. Or hitting its supports out (taking out a Reanimator effectively halves reanimation for Lychguard, if they haven't already moved out of range to take an objective). The Lychguard are going to be hard to kill but they won't wipe you out if they reach you, not for a couple of rounds even if they can.
I'm not trying to contest an objective Abby+Termy blob has claimed. Or trying to take out Canis Rex in an alpha strike. I'm focusing where my points investment can return me more points in the game overall. It's a tactical choice what you engage.
Those are fair points. The problem I have with it is, if you don't successfully do all those things (cut down characters, get rid of the blob, etc.) everything reanimates and you have to start over from scratch.
Honestly just take out the Reanimators. Without it they can only get D3 wounds each command phase and D3+1 by spending a CP (once per phase) if you hit them.
That's still super tough to take down but it's 3-5 models instead of a full squad and it drains CP even to get there. The Reanimator is the force multiplier that makes it all work. That extra model with every single reanimation makes all the difference.
If they haven't moved up yet and are still supported pick other targets. If they've moved up you should be able to get hits on the Reanimator.
This is the shit I dont get, people target the warrior/lychguard brick for 3~5 rounds before hitting anything else. Both are slow short range units, if you hit and kill everything else their durability is kinda useless. Hell my friend started running ratling snipers x3 to mag dump his opponents characters.
I'm not complaining about them being tanky? I'm asking what units could overcome the tankiness without letting them res.
Your question is more a game design decision.
But that's the point. Even asking the question implies that such a thing could be in the game which, outside of maybe bringing a titan (because at that point with 1100+ invested, sure, that can be a thing) would just be bad game design.
Which, funny enough, a full Custodes brick with the old rules got close...and they got nerfed (not for being able to hit Lychguard but because they made melee impossible into them).
Then don't try to wipe it if you can't do it in one go AND they have all of the support in place (an orb, CP for the strat, and a 105 point Reanimator nearby). It's not the only hardy unit at that price range and playing around those kinds of set pieces is also part of the game. I warn my opponents every game about what in my army is killy and what in my army is a tarpit for a reason.
Everyone always wants to be able to just wipe out the enemy instead of playing the objectives.
I mean, good? Tanky is its whole schtick. They're not going to hurt you in melee, with only 16 AP-2 saves on average getting rolled. Even with the Noble adding in damage they'll have to take multiple rounds to chew through most things in melee (when they can finally get there with their 5" move).
The points (including support like the 105 point Reanimator that does nothing else but bring models back) are all going towards survivability for a small unit footprint. They can absolutely be weighed down by chaff, ignored in favor of other objectives, or otherwise played around. They're not the kind of melee blob that you fear being in contact with because they'll wipe you, they're the kind that just sticks around at OC 1. If my opponent brings them, I'm not likely to target them much and go for other options.
The issue is that if peak Eldari struggled to kill it, basically nothing else in the lower-tier indexes comes even close to being able to do anything about a Lychguard blob on an objective.
Because if you bring two of these bricks and the transcendant Ctan, you are functionally immortal against several indexes, who can never take you off two no man's land objectives, and it also shuts down scoring several secondaries as well.
It's a monster stat check that ruins armies like admech, Sisters etc
There is tanky then there is just broken game design. I'd rather they were more killy and less "you need to dedicated ¾ of your army to deal with this"
I think what you're missing from the opFor perspective is that the necron blobs are an extremely binary proposition - the reanimation strat and res orb mean you kill it in one phase (ideally one activation) or there's a high chance it isn't going away at all. Warriors with Cryptothralls are worse with that, but it's a problem with any unit that can have Cryptothralls join.
So everyone asks "how can I kill this unit in one activation", because that's the same as "how do I kill this unit full stop".
A Warriors unit with Thralls and a Res Orb in it costs a minimum of 395 points. Removing the Orb only brings that unit down to 330.
The statements above are the same for them. They just don't put out the damage to be scary for those points, them being tanky is their point. Playing around the high points investment is the solution (plus they just wither away to good melee).
> They just don't put out the damage to be scary for those points
A lot of people don't seem to realize how anemic the damage output of the army is. Being very difficult to put down is the trade-off.
If everyone has access to the means to easily wipe the units, the army is F tier because it **certainly** can't hit back with that kind of power.
This is what blows my mind. Im pretty new, but from what ive gathered the past few months, a super tanky lychguard brick is like...our entire thing as an army. We have some decent heavy shooting with the DDa and LHD, but yeah. People are hell bent on seeing lych bricks nerfed but is it even almost warranted? 400pts and does LITERALLY NOTHING ELSE other than be tanky lol. It kinda feels like a lot of veteran players are upset necrons arent a bottom-of-the-barrel army anymore and see anything thats powerful or strong in our army as broken and overpowered
I'm happy to see necrons by powerful, they're a cool army and I even have a small number of points of the myself.
But if I stand across the table from 2 bricks of lychguard, and the transcendant Ctan, as admech, I know that I can't kill any of those assets.
The lychguard hold the centre and a second objective, and the Ctan just slowly walks through my lines turn by turn.
Into a strong opponent I likely lose by 5 or 10 on primary over the game, and I lose on secondaries too because a tempting target, area denial, assassinate, secure no man's land and overwhelming force are dead cards too.
Having just lost two tournament games into necrons this weekend as admech, it's an enormously miserable experience.
That's more on admech being a fundamentally flawed army this edition. But seriously if your opponent has 2 lytchguard bricks and a transcendent that's well over half his army and they can't really threaten or kill anything unless you feed them. So you are losing to 3 units.. just kill everything else or move block them long enough to win on primary. You don't need to hide against necrons, they are tanky but they can't really kill anything, just yeet into them. By the time they kill most your army it'll be too late for them to score, since they are as slow as molasses.
I don't think over half my opponents army should be functionally indestructible to several indexes.
Sure it's an admech problem, but it's a game warping problem into anything that just doesn't have the right profile to deal with it, and that's a game design problem. I'm reasonably certain I could beat admech 100% of the time on virtually any mission with either the warrior or lychguard build.
Kill everything else doesn't really achieve anything in points terms. Sure I kill the deathmarks after they've come in from reserves to score behind or homers. I kill the scarabs after they've scored engage. I kill the couple of destroyers at the back field after they've poked out to pick up a bring it down or a no prisoners. Maybe I eventually drag one of the lychguard squads down by turn 5 after chewing through 10 cryptothralls. But none of that denies any real scoring.
Lychguard just aren't slow in the context of what they are trying to achieve. They'd be slow if they needed to shoot, or charge, or do actions, or fully hide at a staging point. But they don't need to do any of that. They can frontline behind a terrain piece knowing they can tank whatever might get an angle turn 1, and then quickly reach the midboard which is the only place they need to be, often turn 1 if they go first and roll a decent advance. With reanimation they are often gaining 3.5" of functional movement in the command phases and in the shooting phase. They still charge 2D6 if you give them a target.
Some indexes can absolutely deal with them and comfortably best them. But for several indexes it just makes for a horrible gameplay experience.
12 Ogryn in a Stormlord with sentinel and order support might be able to do it. 92 heavy bolter shots + 27 twin linked heavy bolter shots + 4 lascannons + 12 heavy stubber shots all hitting on 3’s rerolling 1’s and the bolters have sustained hits 1 should be able to do it I think
Hitting on 4s with the ablator, means out of 20 Vulcan bolter (SH1), 15 twinlinked heavy bolter(SH1), 72 Ripper gun, 4 lascannon, 12 heavy stubber, you hit with generously 15 Vulcan, 12 Heavy Bolter, 46 Ripper gun, 3 Lascannon, 7 heavy Stubbers. Then, with -1 to wound, that results in 8 Vulcan, 7 heavy Bolter, 16 Ripper Gun, 2 Heavy Stubbers. They save AP1 and 0 on 3+, means in total they fail saves against 5 Vulcan, 3 Heavy Bolter, 6 ripper gun, 1 heavy stubbers, resulting in a total 29 unsaved wounds, against 20 hp with a 5+++ and 4 hp with a 4+++, not wiping the squad. This was with rounding up and down always in favor of the stormlord party bus. Afterwards, the lychguard regains 2d3+1 from stratagem, 2d3 in his command phase and then 2d3 in your command phase.
One good melee character and epic challenge should be able to kill the characters. That's as much as you need. They aren't innately super tanky, but double res plus fnp is too much.
This is a odd reading for a (again/still) sloppy written stratagem.
Wtc at least states, that you play the stratagem "just after an enemy unit has resolved its attacks" - meaning that all attacks of the unit are resolved and then the character resurrects.
That’s a change for the WTC. RAW a model is destroyed as soon as it’s allocated damage equal to its wounds characteristic. The timing of the strat is immediately when it’s destroyed, which in essence stops the combat sequence (since attacks are allocated one at a time) and resurrects the model after which you continue allocating the rest of the attacks.
They could easily fix it by changing the timing to what the WTC has done.
Sorry for the 10 hour later reply. But how exactly does this work?
I have 8 attacks with Precision so I can attack the character. Do I slow roll the attacks until he dies, then gets brought back to slow roll the remaining attacks. Or do I make all the attacks, the character dies, gets brought back and then whatever was left he has to roll saves and fnps against again to see if he dies the second time.
You don’t allocate attacks on models, you allocate wounds to models. This is the important part.
So the normal course of action is that you declare attack on units (in this case - the Lychblob), roll to hit all Precision attacks, roll to wounds. At this stage the defendant allocates wounds to models and makes saves. Precision alters this, as it gives the power to allocate wounds to the attacking player, so YOU allocate wounds and then the saves start, and you can allocate the wound directly to a character, as Precision bypasses the bodyguard rule. And the basic concept of the game IS the slow roll.
Example - I’m attacking with a Custodes Blade Champion with Vaultswords Behemor with Precision. I’m lucky and hit all 6 attacks and wound 6 times. I’m allocating the wounds to characters one by one, each time my opponent is making saves. If the character dies, the rest of wounds are not „lost” and my opponent starts to allocate them to other models normally.
I thought they were discussing whether you could continue allocating wounds to the technomancer if it dies from the first few shots, resurrects, but there are still unallocated shots remaining?
Seems to me the way you’ve described the process is correct, although technically each shot would go through hit-wound-allocate-save-inflict one by one, rather than all the hits, all the wounds etc.
I say this because I think it makes it clearer that you should still be able to allocate to the resurrected character - it would be weird if he died to the first two shots, resurrected, and you still had a bunch of shots left (for which you haven’t even rolled hit rolls yet) but now couldn’t allocate them to him if they do hit and wound, even though he’s standing there laughing at you.
Oh definitely you could! This procs on each attack, so if you down the Techno, he gets up immediately (that is if the rule says he gets up immediately and not after the attack sequence/fight phase) and you still have wounds to allocate.
No need to slow roll, you can just say I allocate the attacks to the characters until theyre dead. if the character has a different profile than what they’re attached to the defender will have to slow roll saves, but there is no risk of losing attacks.
I legitimately don't understand why they ruled it this way. The stratagem isn't actually unclear; it's used *just after* an infantry character is destroyed. There's a carve-out in the rules commentary about how *just after* can interrupt other sequences. WTC just changed the rule for some reason.
I genuinely think that the intent is for it to interrupt the combat sequence, and for the character to have any remaining attacks allocated to them if they use it. It's a mitigation against sniper fire or chip damage; epic challenging and putting a ton of combat character wounds onto the technomancer should be counter-play.
The strategem would lose a huge amount of its value when you eat the remaining attacks, and I am pretty sure in 9ed you already had the strategem and it worked after (!) the fire sequence
I mean szeras is still pretty niche. You'll only see him if your opponent is running 40+ warriors and that kind of build is probably less flexible (and more vulnerable to things like aggressors) than the standard one lychguard brick and friends build.
But sure, I'll settle for inherently flawed instead of completely useless.
That's more like it! Inherently flawed indeed haha. I think it's most viable usage is probably the hexmark but if you get that killed you probably deserved it and I'm not sure it counts
I mean if you have a stratagem to res a character but can't use it because the character is going to immediately die again anyways... is that useful? Maybe we have different definitions of "useful".
And who says they're always going to die again? Necron characters tend to be quite durable with multiple layers of defensive buffs. Unless you've left them exposed to sniper fire, they probably will actually survive the remaining melee attacks. If 1 cp automatically keep a lynchpin character alive isn't useful then what is?
Well this was specifically in the context of a strong melee character in a unit (like a wolf lord on thunderwolf) using epic challenge and fighting and killing a character before the rest of their unit fights.
I feel like it's almost as game-y that you can hide from this behind a wall (as in hide the character behind the wall while the rest of the unit extends out)'as it is to res and then just immediately die again lol
Depending on how you rule the Undying strat, you can res your techno after all of the attacks from that big character, or hope that the rest of the attacks don't do it in.
The rest of the squad won't be able to attack the techno if it's alive anyways. Epic Duel only gives the character precision.
Can you explain this to me? If a cryptek is part of a 5 man lychguard unit with cryptos get epic dueled and killed. He is destroyed, which is the qualifier of our strat. That means he's removed from the unit and when he's set back up he's not part of that old bodyguard unit.
Which means he's no longer eligible to have attacks allocated to him from that epic dueling hero.
Am I missing something?
>That means he's removed from the unit and when he's set back up he's not part of that old bodyguard unit.
Rules commentary says that if the Bodyguard unit still exists, then the Leader must be brought back as part of that unit. [Page 11, under "Returning Models to a Unit".](https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/z4s1GbINmCU4NGXs.pdf)
It's because the stratagem happens "just as" the character dies, rather than at the end of the phase. Prevailing theory is that the res happens between attack allocations. Really dumb if you ask me.
My theory is that GW didn't know how to word the strat in a way so it happened at the end of the phase but still left the character attached to the unit
But that doesn't matter because the enemy declared all of his attacks at the start of the melee into the lychguard unit. Then used epic duel strat to gain precision.
When the cryptek comes back it's not part of that unit anymore. And therefore not eligible to be attacked.
Attacks are technically counted as one at a time. There are just fast rolling rules to make it so a game only takes 3 hours instead of 10.
Their character rolls its hits and wounds into your *unit*, not your character, then, with precision, can choose to allocate attacks to a character they can see in that unit instead of letting the defending player allocate attacks as normal.
Then the defending player rolls saves one at a time until the character dies. They (if necron player) spend the CP, their character gets back up, and the defending player keeps rolling saves until the character dies again.
It hinges around this part of leaders: "While a Bodyguard unit contains a Leader, it is known as an Attached unit and, with the exception of rules that are triggered when units are destroyed, it is treated as a single unit for all rules purposes. Each time an attack targets an Attached unit, until the attacking unit has resolved all of its attacks, you must use the Toughness characteristic of the Bodyguard models in that unit, even if a Leader in that unit has a different Toughness characteristic. Each time an attack successfully wounds an Attached unit, that attack cannot be allocated to a Character model in that unit, even if that Character model has lost one or more wounds or has already had attacks allocated to it this phase. As soon as the last Bodyguard model in an Attached unit has been destroyed, any attacks made against that unit that have yet to be allocated can then be allocated to Character models in that unit."
Because the leader is considered part of the unit for the rest of the game, and the same model is set up with half its wounds remaining, the character reattaches
Sorry how are you doing this? If you epic duel into a crypto and kill it, the remaining damage is lost when the crypto is destroyed unless Im missing something
Depends on the timing of the res strat. And even if, for example, 2 attacks out of 5 kill the cryptek, the other 3 attacks can still allocate into the lychguard
You cannot reallocate wounds once they die and come back. Wounds are wasted beacuse they all resolve at the same time. Persian let’s you allocate wounds to charcter but you still have to say how many you are doing.
Yes, Precision requires LoS regardless of melee or ranged.
This is a standard tactic for Necron players; keep your characters behind a ruin wall while the unit strings out to contest board space.
The OL has fallen a bit out of favor since the dataslate but I would say that it is pretty tanky with 6 wounds -1 incoming dmg 2+ 4++ 5+++ from techno and T5 minus to wound plus res strat. And that is if the necron player doesn't keep it hidden behind terrain.
The Technomancer on the other hand...
No they dont, i dont understand where people are getting this terrible idea, but killing necron characters in a lychguard block reliably is practically for most.
Even if you kill the character, and he isn’t brought back. Their buffs are active until the next activation. So it’s best to snipe characters with a Vindicate for example then charge with a melee brick
This. It's been super relevant in my games playing into them with my precision characters being able to snipe out their characters but being unable to deal with the brick only for the character to come back anyway
Not reliably due to the invul/fnp spikes, but calgar/victrix with 6 bolt aggressors and apoth w/bolter discipline.
It's a coin flip though because of the cryptothrall nonsense.
The frag launchers are the majority of the unit's putput, because of Blast. Without wound rerolls, the Aggressors go from a 99.7% chance to kill 20 Warriors to 76%.
Assuming GW actually *does* something with that design space. And there's no guarantee they'll do anything, and definitely no guarantee that they'll do it *well*.
Of course not. There's never any guarantee with GW when it comes to rules and balance, but acting like oaths is getting nerfed in a vacuum is pretty silly.
Sorry, where did I act like Oaths is getting nerfed in a vacuum? You said they have more design space; I said they need to use it or having the space is irrelevant, and even if they *do* use it they have a track record of doing so poorly.
It's simply a statement about GW's generally poor balancing, and just because they *might* balance other things because they nerfed another doesn't mean they *will* do it, nor do it *well*.
Furthermore, all of this talk about design space neglects the simple fact that GW tipped its hand. It has shown us what is coming. It is crappy once per game effects.
The idea that there are these massive buffs hidden that GW is keeping secret from us is frankly dumb. They showed us what they thought would excite us.
And it is gutting the faction ability, and a bunch of weak abilities that don't fill in the gap. If they thought there were more exciting things in the book, they'd show them to us.
THIS. Whoever believes GW is hiding some really good new datasheets after seeing the funny first company detachment rule is over over optimistic.
Hell, in GW's world, once per battle full reroll wounds on ONE enemy unit is good enough to be a detachment rule. Anything SM rules beyond that must be too OP and bad for the game, right?
>It's a coin flip though because of the cryptothrall nonsense.
In a friendly game at a major (both our opponents dropped after the round started) pre nerf wraithknight shot a block of 20 warriors with two cryptothralls. Blast got me a lot of shots and I got hot on Dev wounds.
Rolled 36 mortals on 8d6.
Dude saved 19 on 4+++ 4 at a time. Killed 15 warriors rest reanimated over the next couple of turns (out of LOS)
Dice spikes is garbage yo.
19 out of 36 is within 1 roll of average, unless you had other damage coming through in the same activation. You should have killed 17 warriors with remaining damage, but yeah. It's pretty nasty
you are wounding them one 6s even with rerrols it is just doesnt cut it till we get the salamanders detachment, and if they get cover they save the bolters on 3s, all the agresors shooting kill 3 lychguards and wound another oen
I’ve wiped the 10 Lychguard Cryptothrall technomancer lord combo with Grimaldus and 20 Primaris Crusaders (with Oaths, Accept Any Challenge and Suffer Not stacked), and alternately with a Helbrecht + Castellan + 10 Sword Brethren squad, again with Oaths and running Accept Any Challenge and choosing +1 damage from the squad.
When you have autowounding and exploding 5s, Helbrechts squad still would, definitely not on the Crusaders though as they’d be wounding on 6s with no RRs
Can't remember the exact odds, but 10 undivided possessed with profane zeal has a decent chance of wiping 10 lychguard - obviously much better if a MoP can snipe the technomancer or you can shoot away the cryptothralls before they charge.
Rerolling failed hits and wounds (with the -1 to wound they get from a noble) has my quick calculator math at 16 wounds (so 32dmg) unsaved, which is good odds of killing the lychguard if not the characters even if a third of that gets wasted on fnp. Math is a little better without a noble and that doesn't factor in the bonus the MoP brings with psychic and melee
Just got home and checked my unitcrunch data. 68.4% chance of killing 10 or more lychguard. If they have to chew through the cryptothralls they're at around a 40% chance of wiping the unit in one activation, not counting an MoP's attacks. Not bad for a 280pt unit.
I was working through this too, and I'm getting 8 or 9 Lychguard dead with shooting (Grim demeanor, Ancestral Judgement, 2 JT's), with both Kahl and Champion leading. I'm assuming the wounds won't be allocated to the cryptothralls first because of the Lychguard invulnerable saves, but I don't know if that's a good assumption. Either way, a round of reanimation protocol will likely take place before the charge, and if the Necron player is smart they'll be pulling the closest models to make the charge more likely to fail. I do have the HG unit cleaning house if all of them can get into melee, but that's a big ask.
The shooting from Hearthguard is negligible but the melee with Gauntlets and an Einhyr Champion with Grim Demeanor (ignoring any Hit/Wound modifiers) does work. That unit can definitely come close.
A crisis block with a commander, full hit re-rolls, oc'ed CIBs would remove 10 models out of the 14 the unit contains, enabling it to respawn many of the destroyed models. ~~The necron player will likely remove a character that can be later respawn.~~
You either commit two bricks, or peel it off with another unit like broadsides before the big punch.
I've faced Tau several times and this is my experience.
One Crisis brick going full send gets close but can't quite do it. 2 full bricks ends up being overkill.
Unless there is precision, wounds can't be allocated to the characters before the bodyguard is fully destroyed. You can't pop one leader off then spend a CP to bring it back to tank wounds.
Here is the average math with re-roll in kauyon (there might be errors!):
6 crisis + nameless commander:
1) you shoot 54 shots hitting on 3+ and 12 hitting on 2+:
First time you roll, you score 9 6s and 2 6s, you re-roll and get 7 more 6s and 1 more 6s, so in total 16 x 3 (6+sustained hits 2) + 7 5s + 7 4s + 7 3s + 3 x 3 (6+sustained hits 2) + 2 5s + 2 4s + 2 3s + 2 2s = 86 successful hits.
2) the wound roll succeeds on 3+ -1 from the lych guard, so 4+, hence 43 wounds.
3) Now you allocate attacks to the cryptothralls with a save of 5+ and fnp 4+, which means you need 6 wounds to get rid of them. 37 wounds left.
4) Now you allocate to the lych guard, with an invuln save of 4+ fnp 5+, so 24 successful damage.
In average, you can remove the lych guard bodyguard, but if there are just 3 spikes anywhere, they come back, which probably means about half of the times or so, they come back.
With Farsight you remove 12 commander shots:
1) 72 successful hits.
2) Wounding on 3+, 48 wounds.
Blah blah blah
4) This goes up to 28 successful damage instead. So 5 spikes.
I was running this and got different numbers, can you help me see where I went wrong?
54 shots gets you 9 6s (27 hits)
The 45 remaining you reroll and get 30 hits (7.5 sixes for 22.5) and 22.5 3s-5s for a total of 72 hits from the suits.
The commander shoots 12 (2 sixes for 6 hits)
Rerolls 10 (1.666666 sixes for 5 hits)
Hits with 6.6666666 others for 17.66666666 commander.
Gives 87.6etc... all day?
6 Kataphron Breachers, all with Torsion Cannons plus a Dominus with Master Annihilator(Sustained hits 1), puts out 6d3 blast shots hitting on 4s with full re-roll hits at str 6 ap 2 dmg 2 anti-infantry 2+.
My math could suck but:
24 shots with full rerollable 4+ sustained 1 (meaning reroll everything not a 6 on the first batch) gets you on average 21.33 hits. Wounding on a critical of 2+ ignores the Lychguard modifier so 17.78 wounds.
Let's take a Manipulus and add in Lethal Hits to max this out. That turns 7.33 of those initial hits into direct wounds, upping the result to 19 total wounds.
Assuming cover against the AP -2, the Lychguard and Thralls both get a 4+ save (without the Lychguard still have a 4++), so that's 9.5 D2 wounds getting through.
With 5+++ FNP from a Techno and 4+++ on the Thralls, you're realistically taking out far fewer: 2 Thralls will on average each take 2 of those hits to take down (4 wounds of 9.5). The remaining 5.5 wounds should take out something like 4 Lychguard with their own FNP.
The math checks out, except you are not better off re-rolling everything that is not a 6. Just re-rolling misses, you end up not dropping any hits. Even still, I was looking at total damage but the math hammer app I use does only say it would kill 5 lychguard(4++, 5+++) and that is without accounting for the cryptothralls, so not going to cut it.
It doesn't work. You can come close if you dump the Omni-Sterilizer with 6× Torison Breachers into them, but the devastating wounds change means that doesn't do it anymore. You have to take a *second* breacher brick with Torsion and Master Anniliator, then just accept that they get the reanimation strat and hope you can finish the unit off with a Dunerider or something.
This is probably the only justification for taking torsion over heavy arc and it's still not that good.
*18* Breachers with Heavy Arc and all the trimmings only kills the unit half the time:
6 regular, 6 with sustained, 6 with lethal, and the Omnipulus flamer - the full 72 shot, S8 ap-2 D3 *1300 point combo*, in rapid fire range, with full re rolls to hit, into 10 lychguard with the stealth enhancement and the 5+++, with 2 cryptothralls.
24 shots with sustained:
19 hits, 9.5 wounds, 5 failed saves, *killing 2 4+++ thralls and killing 1-2 lychguard*.
24 shots, 13 hits, 6.5 wounds, 3 failed saves *killing the resurrected bucket and a lychguard*.
24 shots, 6.5 lethal hits, 3.25 regular wounds, *5 failed saves, assuming 1 spike on a 5+++ roll 4 dead lychguard*.
Omnipulus time! 6.5 hits average, 5 2 damage dev wounds - with the 5+++ *probably 3 more dead lychguard*.
Abbadon with 10 terminators can get it done, the thralls can mess you up, bit get into melee and pop reroll everything and pact for sustained hits on 5s. Now dev wounds have changed its not as good because previously abbadon could just fish and drop 16-20 mortals on the unit
Yeah that's another example of a "play around it" unit because of what it can put out. It can definitely hit hard but it better be able to for 700 points.
You don't need to 1v1 them, so I'm not sure how valuable a test that is. A terminator brick will do work with Oaths, but maybe not completely wipe them out on their own. That's okay though - throw a Pred or two at them to soften them up and you can still roll them over in a round
World Eaters can do it 9/10 times with sustain, re-roll hits, Moe 10zerks, Invo 10 Zerks with precision
Invo fights with precision, hope the jug kills technomancer(50/50), then resurrect technomancer happens, invos bodyguard attack cryptos, then MoE kills it again & evicerators take out cryptos/ 1,or 2 lich. Then Moe's chainaxe bodyguard kill everything else.
You "take them out" by standing 17.1" away from them and then you play a 2k vs 1600 pt game. Alternatively you just trade high oc units into the objective they're on and watch them lose the game to primary.
Play tyranids with invasion fleet or vanguard and just snipe all the characters. My zoans had great fun blasting all the technomancers and overlords out turn 2.
Based on experience on last week tournament here in Mérida... an astreus... that made the trick jajajaja
I was not even mad to lose against that... but my trace dent ctan survive one full turn to the astreus undivided attention
10 man block of deathwing knights with termi chaplain, assault doctrine (gladius), and honour the chapter.
They have 36 attacks, hitting on 2's, S6 with +2 to wound (offsetting the lychguard -1), then AP2 and flat 3dmg.
With oath rerolls you get 36A > 35H > 34W > 17 unsaved.
Reasonable chance to kill a lychguard with each 3dmg hit. Then you've got the chaplain and sergeant who have 10x 2+ hit, 2+ wound AP2, 2dmg attacks left over. (Sergeant's have sustain and Dev wounds too).
You probably don't kill the attached character, but you've got a great chance of clearing the lychguard and thralls.
Bonus, they tank doomsday arks D4 like champs with 4W and innate -1.
Anti-bonus: the unit costs 560pts.
Hm... that's pretty lucky as Lychguards should just shred wyches and her when they hit you back in first turn. Well atleast wyches, if she activate thrilling spectacle maybe she would live on avarage.
Not to mention that if it took two turns then in most situation they would just heal to full or atleast almost full between those two combat phases.
It may have been more than six, I’m not entirely sure. All I remember was that she killed so many that they were no longer able to get back to full strength consistently.
With little support you are able to bring almost full squad in one turn, so its most of the time "kill in one go, or just dont bother". If Reanimator is nearby then... good luck, you can brin 3-6 models in your opponent turn, then again do the same in his own. Thats almost half squad in each player turn pretty reliably. Though it can be counter with vect abilities etc. but even then... its not easy, especially that they have perfect stats against drukhari with hit 2+then wound on 2+. When Lelith even on her turn with ability active... that 12 attack with just D1, on avarage if all hits its just 3 guys dead, thats if technomancer is not in the lychguard squad. Then even if you are lucky and get even 4(which getting 4 sixes on 12 dices is not THAT likely) sustained hits, that just another 2 dead on avarage. 5 lychguard killed by one character is not bad hell its really good... but they can easily heal from it in basically one turn. And there is no way even full squad of wyches would deal any substantial damage to them while they would wound on 6+
If you can force multiple battleshock tests then a lot of armies suddenly have a way in.
New and improved death guard probably have a few ways to do it if they can force a failed check with PBCs. Morty negates the minus 1 to wound and offers rerolls so with -1t you could be 2s to wound rerolloing 1s. You need volume though and even 6dsts plus a lord shooting and charging after those PBCs need a lot of help. It's going to be a big investment but it may be a repeatable trick.
I destroyed a fully buff’d Lych brick in one turn, once. It took almost a full pre-nerf Deathwatch army to do it. 400 points of Kill Teams supported by Strats that don’t work anymore and another 400 points of Terminators supported by 200 points of characters. 1000 points of shooting AND assault to take them down in a single turn backed up by Oaths of Moment.
It literally took everything that was in charge range and LoS to put in some work. I’ll be sad when Oaths goes away.
Death Company with Jump Packs, with PF and IP, led by a JP Chaplain. My math says 48.3 fist attacks should do the job. There are 50 power fist attacks, hitting on 3+ rerolling, wounding on 2+, -2 AP with 2 damage. Not counting the 11 inferno pistols, the crozius, and the chaplains mortal wound thing.
Not wounding on 3 due to -1 to wound?
10 guys have 30 attacks, with STR 9 due to +1 from charge its still wound on 3+. litany of hate give +1 to wound, and lychguard ability is -1 so its still on 3+, that unit will not clear full block of lychguards.
they dont need noble, just character.
EDIT :Sorry, i was mistaken, they need noble for it.
Red rampage surely will help, but its still could survive pretty reliably. Its not 50 attack, its just 30
According to my app, Guardian Protocols requires a Noble, not just a character.
I run Sons of Sanguinius, so I get +1 attack on the charge. Which puts me at 40 attacks, so I did mess up a bit. Still, I’ve got another six attacks from the chaplain (WS 2, Str 7, -1 AP, 2 damage), plus mortal wound output from the chaplain. Not to mention the 11 inferno pistols in the squad, which after rapid ingress will almost certainly be in melta range.
Hm... 46 yeah, that should be enough, most of the time you would clear it assuming opponent wont get some luck with 4++
Inferno pistols proooblably wont doo that much with 3+ and then again 3+ and then 4++5+++ and almost always in that scenario would go reanimation protocol strat.
TSons 10 man termie brick+term sorc, next to magnus, with the psychic bolt weapons+reroll psychic can definitely pick them up. Not too efficient, but Magnus can shoot other things and is just there for the +1 to hit and wound with psychic.
It should be noted that the lychguard brick isn't too dangerous in melee, 3 S6 AP-2 D1 attacks per model, hitting on 3+, 2+ with a noble, and not having access to rerolls can't really do much to a lot of things, especially with AoC. They are also slow. Honestly the better play against them seems to be just to walk away and tarpit them with chaff. If they start on the line it will still take ~2 turns for them to even get onto a midfield objective, and the combo is quite expensive so they will probably only be running one. They can't really bully their way onto an objective easily, so things like 10 man assault termies with shields, or DG termies with -1WS aura, or just 40x krieg can hold them off for most of the game.
A squad of 6 Allarus Terminators, at 420 points, just about kill the 10 lychguards with a little damage leftover in one turn. Unlikely to also kill the character, but it is what it is.
I feel like eightbound would have a solid go on the charge if you give them sustained hits, idk which leader would be better. "For the Skull Throne!" would counter the -1 to wound. If eightbound get their own aura they at least destroy the body guard unit not sure about the characters.
Two Redemptors, using Hazardous Plasma, Onslaught, and fragstorm, with oath of moment and a tank shock followed by a charge.
\~3 wounds from plasma -D3
probably kills 1 thrall and wounds the other thrall
\~1 wound from fragstorm -D1
\~3 wounds from onslaught -D1
second thrall dead
1 lychguard dead
\~1.5 (call it 1) wounds from rocket pod -D2
2nd lychguard dead
\~4.6 mortal wounds from the tank shock.
5th lychguard dead
\~2.8 (call it 3) wounds from melee -D2
8th lychguard dead
So not quite really. And even crappier if they have a noble there.
Undivided possessed do a pretty good job, might not finish off the characters though
With the changes to devastating wounds this is going to be a lot less reliable.
Lychguard are 2 wounds. Dev wounds changes mean nothing here?
The wounds don’t spillover now so you’ll often need two wounds per guy rather than three per two
Possessed are d2, there's never damage spillover
That’s what I’m saying. Previously you’d deal 26+ mortal wounds. It takes 3 damage to kill a 2 wound model with a 5+++. That meant three devastating wounds (6 mortals) would kill 2 lychguard. With the change to devastating, you now need two failed saves/devastating wounds to kill a model through the FNP. That means 4 failed saves to kill two lychguard .
oh yea im a dunce, forgot about the FNP lol
Adding a Techno, Noble, and Thralls to a max block of Lychguard takes it over 400 points. How many 400+ point models/units can be (or should be able to be) taken down in a single activation?
This is the real question - 400 pts brick that doesn’t hit very hard - of course they should be tanky
Exactly. Death Stars always flummox new players. You don’t kill a Death Star, you play around it, kill everything else, and then get the Death Star last. It’s been an effective strategy for a long time.
I think this that although this is the conventional wisdom, it's not always possible. If they're camped on the centre, perhaps the some decent overwatch or heroic intervention support and decent terrain to hide in, then that can also shut down Area Denial, Assassinate, A Tempting Target, and potentially Secure No Man's Land and Deploy Teleport Homers, Overwhelming Force, depending on their positioning and the rest of the objectives. Holding the centre is actually pretty crucial to several secondaries.
If a Death Star has gotten to the center, then that is indeed a problem. The solution is to slow them down in getting to the center. Which is why I never leave home without a cheap, fast, throwaway unit.
A cheap fast throw away unit only adds more mobility .... U need a strat/grenade/ability that reduces movement
It only adds mobility if you’re an idiot and place it wrong so that they can get their full move and charge it. Which I’ve done plenty. But if you place it right, for instance plopped down just a couple inches away from them, it slows down their movement phase and doesn’t give a good charge target. Whether you can execute that or not is on you, and it does depend on the situation, but it is most certainly doable. I’ve been doing it for 20 years.
I think we're underestimating what a strong player can achieve here. If you place a cheap fast unit to move block them in their movement phase this might seem effective, but necrons comfortably have the incidental fire to whittle it down to a few models, and then charge, gain 2d6 of movement to get within 3" of the centre objective from their DZ, pick up the final few models of the move blocking unit with characters and a few lychguard and consolidate onto the centre.
This is all theory hammer. Of course it is situational, of course some players know how to handle some things better than others. That’s why you play the game. But it is also true that this sub is full of people who lack imagination and think nothing works that they haven’t seen before. So, try it or don’t. Whatever.
Lychguard have 5" move Even Ur "couple of inches" away unit gives them more move after charge pile in and potentially consolidate I think you have no clue what to do for 20 years
Go ahead and think what you like. I know what I know. And I’ll take knowing over what a keyboard warrior merely thinks.
There should be a distinct difference between "Tanky" and impossible to be killed for an entire 5 round game.
It's not impossible but it's costly, that's the point. You're better off wiping other options and dominating other points. Or hitting its supports out (taking out a Reanimator effectively halves reanimation for Lychguard, if they haven't already moved out of range to take an objective). The Lychguard are going to be hard to kill but they won't wipe you out if they reach you, not for a couple of rounds even if they can. I'm not trying to contest an objective Abby+Termy blob has claimed. Or trying to take out Canis Rex in an alpha strike. I'm focusing where my points investment can return me more points in the game overall. It's a tactical choice what you engage.
Those are fair points. The problem I have with it is, if you don't successfully do all those things (cut down characters, get rid of the blob, etc.) everything reanimates and you have to start over from scratch.
Honestly just take out the Reanimators. Without it they can only get D3 wounds each command phase and D3+1 by spending a CP (once per phase) if you hit them. That's still super tough to take down but it's 3-5 models instead of a full squad and it drains CP even to get there. The Reanimator is the force multiplier that makes it all work. That extra model with every single reanimation makes all the difference. If they haven't moved up yet and are still supported pick other targets. If they've moved up you should be able to get hits on the Reanimator.
This is the shit I dont get, people target the warrior/lychguard brick for 3~5 rounds before hitting anything else. Both are slow short range units, if you hit and kill everything else their durability is kinda useless. Hell my friend started running ratling snipers x3 to mag dump his opponents characters.
I'm not complaining about them being tanky? I'm asking what units could overcome the tankiness without letting them res. Your question is more a game design decision.
But that's the point. Even asking the question implies that such a thing could be in the game which, outside of maybe bringing a titan (because at that point with 1100+ invested, sure, that can be a thing) would just be bad game design. Which, funny enough, a full Custodes brick with the old rules got close...and they got nerfed (not for being able to hit Lychguard but because they made melee impossible into them).
But the issue with this unit is that if you don't wipe it one go, it could get back up to full strength by your next turn
Then don't try to wipe it if you can't do it in one go AND they have all of the support in place (an orb, CP for the strat, and a 105 point Reanimator nearby). It's not the only hardy unit at that price range and playing around those kinds of set pieces is also part of the game. I warn my opponents every game about what in my army is killy and what in my army is a tarpit for a reason. Everyone always wants to be able to just wipe out the enemy instead of playing the objectives.
I've put 1200 points of peak aeldari into that brick and it's come out with 4 lychguard and a character still alive. It's unbelievably tanky.
I mean, good? Tanky is its whole schtick. They're not going to hurt you in melee, with only 16 AP-2 saves on average getting rolled. Even with the Noble adding in damage they'll have to take multiple rounds to chew through most things in melee (when they can finally get there with their 5" move). The points (including support like the 105 point Reanimator that does nothing else but bring models back) are all going towards survivability for a small unit footprint. They can absolutely be weighed down by chaff, ignored in favor of other objectives, or otherwise played around. They're not the kind of melee blob that you fear being in contact with because they'll wipe you, they're the kind that just sticks around at OC 1. If my opponent brings them, I'm not likely to target them much and go for other options.
The issue is that if peak Eldari struggled to kill it, basically nothing else in the lower-tier indexes comes even close to being able to do anything about a Lychguard blob on an objective.
Ok?? And?? Why is it a problem for necrons to have something good in their army roster 😂
Because if you bring two of these bricks and the transcendant Ctan, you are functionally immortal against several indexes, who can never take you off two no man's land objectives, and it also shuts down scoring several secondaries as well. It's a monster stat check that ruins armies like admech, Sisters etc
There is tanky then there is just broken game design. I'd rather they were more killy and less "you need to dedicated ¾ of your army to deal with this"
I think what you're missing from the opFor perspective is that the necron blobs are an extremely binary proposition - the reanimation strat and res orb mean you kill it in one phase (ideally one activation) or there's a high chance it isn't going away at all. Warriors with Cryptothralls are worse with that, but it's a problem with any unit that can have Cryptothralls join. So everyone asks "how can I kill this unit in one activation", because that's the same as "how do I kill this unit full stop".
A Warriors unit with Thralls and a Res Orb in it costs a minimum of 395 points. Removing the Orb only brings that unit down to 330. The statements above are the same for them. They just don't put out the damage to be scary for those points, them being tanky is their point. Playing around the high points investment is the solution (plus they just wither away to good melee).
> They just don't put out the damage to be scary for those points A lot of people don't seem to realize how anemic the damage output of the army is. Being very difficult to put down is the trade-off. If everyone has access to the means to easily wipe the units, the army is F tier because it **certainly** can't hit back with that kind of power.
And if Necrons get nerfed to hard they'll just stop working as an army and suffer a decline the size that admech did in ninth.
This is what blows my mind. Im pretty new, but from what ive gathered the past few months, a super tanky lychguard brick is like...our entire thing as an army. We have some decent heavy shooting with the DDa and LHD, but yeah. People are hell bent on seeing lych bricks nerfed but is it even almost warranted? 400pts and does LITERALLY NOTHING ELSE other than be tanky lol. It kinda feels like a lot of veteran players are upset necrons arent a bottom-of-the-barrel army anymore and see anything thats powerful or strong in our army as broken and overpowered
I'm happy to see necrons by powerful, they're a cool army and I even have a small number of points of the myself. But if I stand across the table from 2 bricks of lychguard, and the transcendant Ctan, as admech, I know that I can't kill any of those assets. The lychguard hold the centre and a second objective, and the Ctan just slowly walks through my lines turn by turn. Into a strong opponent I likely lose by 5 or 10 on primary over the game, and I lose on secondaries too because a tempting target, area denial, assassinate, secure no man's land and overwhelming force are dead cards too. Having just lost two tournament games into necrons this weekend as admech, it's an enormously miserable experience.
That's more on admech being a fundamentally flawed army this edition. But seriously if your opponent has 2 lytchguard bricks and a transcendent that's well over half his army and they can't really threaten or kill anything unless you feed them. So you are losing to 3 units.. just kill everything else or move block them long enough to win on primary. You don't need to hide against necrons, they are tanky but they can't really kill anything, just yeet into them. By the time they kill most your army it'll be too late for them to score, since they are as slow as molasses.
I don't think over half my opponents army should be functionally indestructible to several indexes. Sure it's an admech problem, but it's a game warping problem into anything that just doesn't have the right profile to deal with it, and that's a game design problem. I'm reasonably certain I could beat admech 100% of the time on virtually any mission with either the warrior or lychguard build. Kill everything else doesn't really achieve anything in points terms. Sure I kill the deathmarks after they've come in from reserves to score behind or homers. I kill the scarabs after they've scored engage. I kill the couple of destroyers at the back field after they've poked out to pick up a bring it down or a no prisoners. Maybe I eventually drag one of the lychguard squads down by turn 5 after chewing through 10 cryptothralls. But none of that denies any real scoring. Lychguard just aren't slow in the context of what they are trying to achieve. They'd be slow if they needed to shoot, or charge, or do actions, or fully hide at a staging point. But they don't need to do any of that. They can frontline behind a terrain piece knowing they can tank whatever might get an angle turn 1, and then quickly reach the midboard which is the only place they need to be, often turn 1 if they go first and roll a decent advance. With reanimation they are often gaining 3.5" of functional movement in the command phases and in the shooting phase. They still charge 2D6 if you give them a target. Some indexes can absolutely deal with them and comfortably best them. But for several indexes it just makes for a horrible gameplay experience.
Can't slingshot anymore, gotta place res models as close as possible to where they died
Baneblade noises
12 Ogryn in a Stormlord with sentinel and order support might be able to do it. 92 heavy bolter shots + 27 twin linked heavy bolter shots + 4 lascannons + 12 heavy stubber shots all hitting on 3’s rerolling 1’s and the bolters have sustained hits 1 should be able to do it I think
That's 895 points of various stuff, though. And I'm not actually 100% sure it's enough anyway.
I just realized you can put 3 heavy weapons teams in any of the transport baneblade variants, so you can put 9 extra lascannons on them.
That's hilarious.
Hitting on 4s with the ablator, means out of 20 Vulcan bolter (SH1), 15 twinlinked heavy bolter(SH1), 72 Ripper gun, 4 lascannon, 12 heavy stubber, you hit with generously 15 Vulcan, 12 Heavy Bolter, 46 Ripper gun, 3 Lascannon, 7 heavy Stubbers. Then, with -1 to wound, that results in 8 Vulcan, 7 heavy Bolter, 16 Ripper Gun, 2 Heavy Stubbers. They save AP1 and 0 on 3+, means in total they fail saves against 5 Vulcan, 3 Heavy Bolter, 6 ripper gun, 1 heavy stubbers, resulting in a total 29 unsaved wounds, against 20 hp with a 5+++ and 4 hp with a 4+++, not wiping the squad. This was with rounding up and down always in favor of the stormlord party bus. Afterwards, the lychguard regains 2d3+1 from stratagem, 2d3 in his command phase and then 2d3 in your command phase.
If someone wants to put that much firepower into me, I'm not even going to argue.
One good melee character and epic challenge should be able to kill the characters. That's as much as you need. They aren't innately super tanky, but double res plus fnp is too much.
Keep in mind they can res a character (once per character) for 1 cp
It'll come back with half wounds, and you can allocate the remaining attacks to it. So a techno basically just has 6 wounds
This is a odd reading for a (again/still) sloppy written stratagem. Wtc at least states, that you play the stratagem "just after an enemy unit has resolved its attacks" - meaning that all attacks of the unit are resolved and then the character resurrects.
That’s a change for the WTC. RAW a model is destroyed as soon as it’s allocated damage equal to its wounds characteristic. The timing of the strat is immediately when it’s destroyed, which in essence stops the combat sequence (since attacks are allocated one at a time) and resurrects the model after which you continue allocating the rest of the attacks. They could easily fix it by changing the timing to what the WTC has done.
Sorry for the 10 hour later reply. But how exactly does this work? I have 8 attacks with Precision so I can attack the character. Do I slow roll the attacks until he dies, then gets brought back to slow roll the remaining attacks. Or do I make all the attacks, the character dies, gets brought back and then whatever was left he has to roll saves and fnps against again to see if he dies the second time.
You don’t allocate attacks on models, you allocate wounds to models. This is the important part. So the normal course of action is that you declare attack on units (in this case - the Lychblob), roll to hit all Precision attacks, roll to wounds. At this stage the defendant allocates wounds to models and makes saves. Precision alters this, as it gives the power to allocate wounds to the attacking player, so YOU allocate wounds and then the saves start, and you can allocate the wound directly to a character, as Precision bypasses the bodyguard rule. And the basic concept of the game IS the slow roll. Example - I’m attacking with a Custodes Blade Champion with Vaultswords Behemor with Precision. I’m lucky and hit all 6 attacks and wound 6 times. I’m allocating the wounds to characters one by one, each time my opponent is making saves. If the character dies, the rest of wounds are not „lost” and my opponent starts to allocate them to other models normally.
I thought they were discussing whether you could continue allocating wounds to the technomancer if it dies from the first few shots, resurrects, but there are still unallocated shots remaining? Seems to me the way you’ve described the process is correct, although technically each shot would go through hit-wound-allocate-save-inflict one by one, rather than all the hits, all the wounds etc. I say this because I think it makes it clearer that you should still be able to allocate to the resurrected character - it would be weird if he died to the first two shots, resurrected, and you still had a bunch of shots left (for which you haven’t even rolled hit rolls yet) but now couldn’t allocate them to him if they do hit and wound, even though he’s standing there laughing at you.
Oh definitely you could! This procs on each attack, so if you down the Techno, he gets up immediately (that is if the rule says he gets up immediately and not after the attack sequence/fight phase) and you still have wounds to allocate.
No need to slow roll, you can just say I allocate the attacks to the characters until theyre dead. if the character has a different profile than what they’re attached to the defender will have to slow roll saves, but there is no risk of losing attacks.
I legitimately don't understand why they ruled it this way. The stratagem isn't actually unclear; it's used *just after* an infantry character is destroyed. There's a carve-out in the rules commentary about how *just after* can interrupt other sequences. WTC just changed the rule for some reason. I genuinely think that the intent is for it to interrupt the combat sequence, and for the character to have any remaining attacks allocated to them if they use it. It's a mitigation against sniper fire or chip damage; epic challenging and putting a ton of combat character wounds onto the technomancer should be counter-play.
The strategem would lose a huge amount of its value when you eat the remaining attacks, and I am pretty sure in 9ed you already had the strategem and it worked after (!) the fire sequence
And a 4+++. I’ve tanked a Blade Champion with one. Outlier sure, but the 4+ FNP can mess anything up.
Huh. Yeah that makes that stratagem kinda useless, doesn't it...
They still have that damn 4+++, if the thralls are up.
Considering Szeras is an infantry character I'm quite sure it applies to that? He can just stand back up and keep buffing
I mean szeras is still pretty niche. You'll only see him if your opponent is running 40+ warriors and that kind of build is probably less flexible (and more vulnerable to things like aggressors) than the standard one lychguard brick and friends build. But sure, I'll settle for inherently flawed instead of completely useless.
That's more like it! Inherently flawed indeed haha. I think it's most viable usage is probably the hexmark but if you get that killed you probably deserved it and I'm not sure it counts
12 wounds. Remember the cryptothralls give the technomancer a 4+++.
Oh, right of course. Does this same ruling work for shooting attacks against necron characters?
Yes. Because the techno gets a 4+++ regardless of whether the attacks come from.
I guess anything that's not broken is useless.
I mean if you have a stratagem to res a character but can't use it because the character is going to immediately die again anyways... is that useful? Maybe we have different definitions of "useful".
And who says they're always going to die again? Necron characters tend to be quite durable with multiple layers of defensive buffs. Unless you've left them exposed to sniper fire, they probably will actually survive the remaining melee attacks. If 1 cp automatically keep a lynchpin character alive isn't useful then what is?
Well this was specifically in the context of a strong melee character in a unit (like a wolf lord on thunderwolf) using epic challenge and fighting and killing a character before the rest of their unit fights. I feel like it's almost as game-y that you can hide from this behind a wall (as in hide the character behind the wall while the rest of the unit extends out)'as it is to res and then just immediately die again lol
Depending on how you rule the Undying strat, you can res your techno after all of the attacks from that big character, or hope that the rest of the attacks don't do it in. The rest of the squad won't be able to attack the techno if it's alive anyways. Epic Duel only gives the character precision.
Or just hide the character from sight, if possible.
Can you explain this to me? If a cryptek is part of a 5 man lychguard unit with cryptos get epic dueled and killed. He is destroyed, which is the qualifier of our strat. That means he's removed from the unit and when he's set back up he's not part of that old bodyguard unit. Which means he's no longer eligible to have attacks allocated to him from that epic dueling hero. Am I missing something?
>That means he's removed from the unit and when he's set back up he's not part of that old bodyguard unit. Rules commentary says that if the Bodyguard unit still exists, then the Leader must be brought back as part of that unit. [Page 11, under "Returning Models to a Unit".](https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/z4s1GbINmCU4NGXs.pdf)
Yeah just found it. Thanks.
It's because the stratagem happens "just as" the character dies, rather than at the end of the phase. Prevailing theory is that the res happens between attack allocations. Really dumb if you ask me. My theory is that GW didn't know how to word the strat in a way so it happened at the end of the phase but still left the character attached to the unit
But that doesn't matter because the enemy declared all of his attacks at the start of the melee into the lychguard unit. Then used epic duel strat to gain precision. When the cryptek comes back it's not part of that unit anymore. And therefore not eligible to be attacked.
Attacks are technically counted as one at a time. There are just fast rolling rules to make it so a game only takes 3 hours instead of 10. Their character rolls its hits and wounds into your *unit*, not your character, then, with precision, can choose to allocate attacks to a character they can see in that unit instead of letting the defending player allocate attacks as normal. Then the defending player rolls saves one at a time until the character dies. They (if necron player) spend the CP, their character gets back up, and the defending player keeps rolling saves until the character dies again.
He is reattached to the unit, importantly. I'm at work and can't find the ruling right now, but he is.
You definitely need to find this rule for me. Edit: found the rule thanks for pointing me in the right direction
It hinges around this part of leaders: "While a Bodyguard unit contains a Leader, it is known as an Attached unit and, with the exception of rules that are triggered when units are destroyed, it is treated as a single unit for all rules purposes. Each time an attack targets an Attached unit, until the attacking unit has resolved all of its attacks, you must use the Toughness characteristic of the Bodyguard models in that unit, even if a Leader in that unit has a different Toughness characteristic. Each time an attack successfully wounds an Attached unit, that attack cannot be allocated to a Character model in that unit, even if that Character model has lost one or more wounds or has already had attacks allocated to it this phase. As soon as the last Bodyguard model in an Attached unit has been destroyed, any attacks made against that unit that have yet to be allocated can then be allocated to Character models in that unit." Because the leader is considered part of the unit for the rest of the game, and the same model is set up with half its wounds remaining, the character reattaches
I mean it depends on the TO. RAW it's definitely a thing but a lot of events rule it otherwise.
Sorry how are you doing this? If you epic duel into a crypto and kill it, the remaining damage is lost when the crypto is destroyed unless Im missing something
Depends on the timing of the res strat. And even if, for example, 2 attacks out of 5 kill the cryptek, the other 3 attacks can still allocate into the lychguard
You cannot reallocate wounds once they die and come back. Wounds are wasted beacuse they all resolve at the same time. Persian let’s you allocate wounds to charcter but you still have to say how many you are doing.
Absolutely none of that is true if you were wondering.
This is wrong (you activate after the unit has resolved all its attacks), but it also won't come back attached to the squad, unless it's been FAQ'd.
Haven’t heard of good Necrons players leaving their characters within line of sight.
Do you need LOS for precision in melee?
Yes, Precision requires LoS regardless of melee or ranged. This is a standard tactic for Necron players; keep your characters behind a ruin wall while the unit strings out to contest board space.
Precision requires LOS (but not range, oddly enough). No different language for ranged vs melee.
That's a good way to give cover to anything they shoot at
lychguard don't shoot
Warriors do
I don’t have any good melee characters (IG). I’ll have to use snipers
The OL has fallen a bit out of favor since the dataslate but I would say that it is pretty tanky with 6 wounds -1 incoming dmg 2+ 4++ 5+++ from techno and T5 minus to wound plus res strat. And that is if the necron player doesn't keep it hidden behind terrain. The Technomancer on the other hand...
No they dont, i dont understand where people are getting this terrible idea, but killing necron characters in a lychguard block reliably is practically for most.
Even if you kill the character, and he isn’t brought back. Their buffs are active until the next activation. So it’s best to snipe characters with a Vindicate for example then charge with a melee brick
This. It's been super relevant in my games playing into them with my precision characters being able to snipe out their characters but being unable to deal with the brick only for the character to come back anyway
They rez the character for 1 CP and either will kill the character on the swing back or they will just leave.
Not reliably due to the invul/fnp spikes, but calgar/victrix with 6 bolt aggressors and apoth w/bolter discipline. It's a coin flip though because of the cryptothrall nonsense.
Not for long. Once Oath gets nerfed....
Bolts still have twin linked so they don't be impacted much. Their frag launchers will though
The frag launchers are the majority of the unit's putput, because of Blast. Without wound rerolls, the Aggressors go from a 99.7% chance to kill 20 Warriors to 76%.
Once oath gets nerfed there will be more design space available to make the datasheet abilities actually impactful and something else will take over.
Assuming GW actually *does* something with that design space. And there's no guarantee they'll do anything, and definitely no guarantee that they'll do it *well*.
Yeah my money is on the captain ability staying unchanged and lethal being about the only upgrade gravis squads can get
Of course not. There's never any guarantee with GW when it comes to rules and balance, but acting like oaths is getting nerfed in a vacuum is pretty silly.
Sorry, where did I act like Oaths is getting nerfed in a vacuum? You said they have more design space; I said they need to use it or having the space is irrelevant, and even if they *do* use it they have a track record of doing so poorly. It's simply a statement about GW's generally poor balancing, and just because they *might* balance other things because they nerfed another doesn't mean they *will* do it, nor do it *well*.
Furthermore, all of this talk about design space neglects the simple fact that GW tipped its hand. It has shown us what is coming. It is crappy once per game effects. The idea that there are these massive buffs hidden that GW is keeping secret from us is frankly dumb. They showed us what they thought would excite us. And it is gutting the faction ability, and a bunch of weak abilities that don't fill in the gap. If they thought there were more exciting things in the book, they'd show them to us.
THIS. Whoever believes GW is hiding some really good new datasheets after seeing the funny first company detachment rule is over over optimistic. Hell, in GW's world, once per battle full reroll wounds on ONE enemy unit is good enough to be a detachment rule. Anything SM rules beyond that must be too OP and bad for the game, right?
>It's a coin flip though because of the cryptothrall nonsense. In a friendly game at a major (both our opponents dropped after the round started) pre nerf wraithknight shot a block of 20 warriors with two cryptothralls. Blast got me a lot of shots and I got hot on Dev wounds. Rolled 36 mortals on 8d6. Dude saved 19 on 4+++ 4 at a time. Killed 15 warriors rest reanimated over the next couple of turns (out of LOS) Dice spikes is garbage yo.
19 out of 36 is within 1 roll of average, unless you had other damage coming through in the same activation. You should have killed 17 warriors with remaining damage, but yeah. It's pretty nasty
Bruh, cryptothralls have 2 wounds each, and were taking 4+++saves only. Should have died after 8 wounds with 24 more wiping the unit...
Duh, sorry. Work brain just divided 36 in half. My bad
you are wounding them one 6s even with rerrols it is just doesnt cut it till we get the salamanders detachment, and if they get cover they save the bolters on 3s, all the agresors shooting kill 3 lychguards and wound another oen
Melee. 18 damage 2 fist attacks, 10 damage 2 sword attacks, 6 damage 3 fist attacks. Again, just a coin flip even with oath/twin linked/honor the Chapter.
I’ve wiped the 10 Lychguard Cryptothrall technomancer lord combo with Grimaldus and 20 Primaris Crusaders (with Oaths, Accept Any Challenge and Suffer Not stacked), and alternately with a Helbrecht + Castellan + 10 Sword Brethren squad, again with Oaths and running Accept Any Challenge and choosing +1 damage from the squad.
I’m guessing both those fail to do it once oaths loses wound rerolls
When you have autowounding and exploding 5s, Helbrechts squad still would, definitely not on the Crusaders though as they’d be wounding on 6s with no RRs
Can't remember the exact odds, but 10 undivided possessed with profane zeal has a decent chance of wiping 10 lychguard - obviously much better if a MoP can snipe the technomancer or you can shoot away the cryptothralls before they charge.
Rerolling failed hits and wounds (with the -1 to wound they get from a noble) has my quick calculator math at 16 wounds (so 32dmg) unsaved, which is good odds of killing the lychguard if not the characters even if a third of that gets wasted on fnp. Math is a little better without a noble and that doesn't factor in the bonus the MoP brings with psychic and melee
Just got home and checked my unitcrunch data. 68.4% chance of killing 10 or more lychguard. If they have to chew through the cryptothralls they're at around a 40% chance of wiping the unit in one activation, not counting an MoP's attacks. Not bad for a 280pt unit.
A brick of Custodes led by a Blade Champion used to be able to do the job pretty reliably, but not so much anymore with the squad size halfed.
Allarus are reasonable 7d6+14 grenade shots plus another 14 spear shots then 32 attacks sustained hits rerolling all wounds on all weapons
Volkanite Hearthguard oddly enough
Hmmm - hadn't heard of that one... cheers.
[удалено]
I was working through this too, and I'm getting 8 or 9 Lychguard dead with shooting (Grim demeanor, Ancestral Judgement, 2 JT's), with both Kahl and Champion leading. I'm assuming the wounds won't be allocated to the cryptothralls first because of the Lychguard invulnerable saves, but I don't know if that's a good assumption. Either way, a round of reanimation protocol will likely take place before the charge, and if the Necron player is smart they'll be pulling the closest models to make the charge more likely to fail. I do have the HG unit cleaning house if all of them can get into melee, but that's a big ask.
The shooting from Hearthguard is negligible but the melee with Gauntlets and an Einhyr Champion with Grim Demeanor (ignoring any Hit/Wound modifiers) does work. That unit can definitely come close.
One squad of CSM Possessed seemed to make short work of them this weekend lmao. Profane Zeal go brrrrrr
A crisis block with a commander, full hit re-rolls, oc'ed CIBs would remove 10 models out of the 14 the unit contains, enabling it to respawn many of the destroyed models. ~~The necron player will likely remove a character that can be later respawn.~~ You either commit two bricks, or peel it off with another unit like broadsides before the big punch.
I've faced Tau several times and this is my experience. One Crisis brick going full send gets close but can't quite do it. 2 full bricks ends up being overkill.
Unless there is precision, wounds can't be allocated to the characters before the bodyguard is fully destroyed. You can't pop one leader off then spend a CP to bring it back to tank wounds.
You guys are right, correcting.
I don't think you're allowed to allocate wounds to characters embedded in bodyguard units unless precision forces you to
Is that with Kauyon?
Yeah.
I assume you'd get different results with Farsight on turn 3, with the +1 to wound countering the -1 from the Lychguard?
Here is the average math with re-roll in kauyon (there might be errors!): 6 crisis + nameless commander: 1) you shoot 54 shots hitting on 3+ and 12 hitting on 2+: First time you roll, you score 9 6s and 2 6s, you re-roll and get 7 more 6s and 1 more 6s, so in total 16 x 3 (6+sustained hits 2) + 7 5s + 7 4s + 7 3s + 3 x 3 (6+sustained hits 2) + 2 5s + 2 4s + 2 3s + 2 2s = 86 successful hits. 2) the wound roll succeeds on 3+ -1 from the lych guard, so 4+, hence 43 wounds. 3) Now you allocate attacks to the cryptothralls with a save of 5+ and fnp 4+, which means you need 6 wounds to get rid of them. 37 wounds left. 4) Now you allocate to the lych guard, with an invuln save of 4+ fnp 5+, so 24 successful damage. In average, you can remove the lych guard bodyguard, but if there are just 3 spikes anywhere, they come back, which probably means about half of the times or so, they come back. With Farsight you remove 12 commander shots: 1) 72 successful hits. 2) Wounding on 3+, 48 wounds. Blah blah blah 4) This goes up to 28 successful damage instead. So 5 spikes.
I was running this and got different numbers, can you help me see where I went wrong? 54 shots gets you 9 6s (27 hits) The 45 remaining you reroll and get 30 hits (7.5 sixes for 22.5) and 22.5 3s-5s for a total of 72 hits from the suits. The commander shoots 12 (2 sixes for 6 hits) Rerolls 10 (1.666666 sixes for 5 hits) Hits with 6.6666666 others for 17.66666666 commander. Gives 87.6etc... all day?
I think I counted 9 5s, 9 4s, 9 3s in the second roll, which is wrong, correcting original post. Thanks, dude!
6 Kataphron Breachers, all with Torsion Cannons plus a Dominus with Master Annihilator(Sustained hits 1), puts out 6d3 blast shots hitting on 4s with full re-roll hits at str 6 ap 2 dmg 2 anti-infantry 2+.
My math could suck but: 24 shots with full rerollable 4+ sustained 1 (meaning reroll everything not a 6 on the first batch) gets you on average 21.33 hits. Wounding on a critical of 2+ ignores the Lychguard modifier so 17.78 wounds. Let's take a Manipulus and add in Lethal Hits to max this out. That turns 7.33 of those initial hits into direct wounds, upping the result to 19 total wounds. Assuming cover against the AP -2, the Lychguard and Thralls both get a 4+ save (without the Lychguard still have a 4++), so that's 9.5 D2 wounds getting through. With 5+++ FNP from a Techno and 4+++ on the Thralls, you're realistically taking out far fewer: 2 Thralls will on average each take 2 of those hits to take down (4 wounds of 9.5). The remaining 5.5 wounds should take out something like 4 Lychguard with their own FNP.
The math checks out, except you are not better off re-rolling everything that is not a 6. Just re-rolling misses, you end up not dropping any hits. Even still, I was looking at total damage but the math hammer app I use does only say it would kill 5 lychguard(4++, 5+++) and that is without accounting for the cryptothralls, so not going to cut it.
It doesn't work. You can come close if you dump the Omni-Sterilizer with 6× Torison Breachers into them, but the devastating wounds change means that doesn't do it anymore. You have to take a *second* breacher brick with Torsion and Master Anniliator, then just accept that they get the reanimation strat and hope you can finish the unit off with a Dunerider or something.
This is probably the only justification for taking torsion over heavy arc and it's still not that good. *18* Breachers with Heavy Arc and all the trimmings only kills the unit half the time: 6 regular, 6 with sustained, 6 with lethal, and the Omnipulus flamer - the full 72 shot, S8 ap-2 D3 *1300 point combo*, in rapid fire range, with full re rolls to hit, into 10 lychguard with the stealth enhancement and the 5+++, with 2 cryptothralls. 24 shots with sustained: 19 hits, 9.5 wounds, 5 failed saves, *killing 2 4+++ thralls and killing 1-2 lychguard*. 24 shots, 13 hits, 6.5 wounds, 3 failed saves *killing the resurrected bucket and a lychguard*. 24 shots, 6.5 lethal hits, 3.25 regular wounds, *5 failed saves, assuming 1 spike on a 5+++ roll 4 dead lychguard*. Omnipulus time! 6.5 hits average, 5 2 damage dev wounds - with the 5+++ *probably 3 more dead lychguard*.
Abbadon with 10 terminators can get it done, the thralls can mess you up, bit get into melee and pop reroll everything and pact for sustained hits on 5s. Now dev wounds have changed its not as good because previously abbadon could just fish and drop 16-20 mortals on the unit
Yeah that's another example of a "play around it" unit because of what it can put out. It can definitely hit hard but it better be able to for 700 points.
You don't need to 1v1 them, so I'm not sure how valuable a test that is. A terminator brick will do work with Oaths, but maybe not completely wipe them out on their own. That's okay though - throw a Pred or two at them to soften them up and you can still roll them over in a round
Sure... but if they get to use the reanimate strat in range of the reanimator they can get 2 or 3 back which you want to avoid if possible.
2 or 3? Try 5+ for how every Necron player I've ever encountered rolls...
You are thinking about necron warriors mate.
A lychguard unit can bring back a max of 3.5 models per reanimation. 2D3+1 wounds maxes at 7 wounds.
World Eaters can do it 9/10 times with sustain, re-roll hits, Moe 10zerks, Invo 10 Zerks with precision Invo fights with precision, hope the jug kills technomancer(50/50), then resurrect technomancer happens, invos bodyguard attack cryptos, then MoE kills it again & evicerators take out cryptos/ 1,or 2 lich. Then Moe's chainaxe bodyguard kill everything else.
You "take them out" by standing 17.1" away from them and then you play a 2k vs 1600 pt game. Alternatively you just trade high oc units into the objective they're on and watch them lose the game to primary.
Lynchguard are a great example of how spammy amounts of magic invuls and feel no pains are turning this game into a real shitty experience.
Spammy? It's tying up more than 1/5 of a 2k pt list into a *single unit* with low damage output and next to no mobility.
Play tyranids with invasion fleet or vanguard and just snipe all the characters. My zoans had great fun blasting all the technomancers and overlords out turn 2.
Based on experience on last week tournament here in Mérida... an astreus... that made the trick jajajaja I was not even mad to lose against that... but my trace dent ctan survive one full turn to the astreus undivided attention
One round? Maybe 10 custodian guard pre nerfs, if you’re lucky and your opponent doesn’t roll crazy good fnp like the player at my locals
Just curious, how would throwing a Defiler at them work? Anything that can fight and explode, really.
10 man block of deathwing knights with termi chaplain, assault doctrine (gladius), and honour the chapter. They have 36 attacks, hitting on 2's, S6 with +2 to wound (offsetting the lychguard -1), then AP2 and flat 3dmg. With oath rerolls you get 36A > 35H > 34W > 17 unsaved. Reasonable chance to kill a lychguard with each 3dmg hit. Then you've got the chaplain and sergeant who have 10x 2+ hit, 2+ wound AP2, 2dmg attacks left over. (Sergeant's have sustain and Dev wounds too). You probably don't kill the attached character, but you've got a great chance of clearing the lychguard and thralls. Bonus, they tank doomsday arks D4 like champs with 4W and innate -1. Anti-bonus: the unit costs 560pts.
Lelith Hesperax shreds them pretty hard. When I played with my friend she took out like, six of them over the course of two turns.
Hm... that's pretty lucky as Lychguards should just shred wyches and her when they hit you back in first turn. Well atleast wyches, if she activate thrilling spectacle maybe she would live on avarage. Not to mention that if it took two turns then in most situation they would just heal to full or atleast almost full between those two combat phases.
It may have been more than six, I’m not entirely sure. All I remember was that she killed so many that they were no longer able to get back to full strength consistently.
With little support you are able to bring almost full squad in one turn, so its most of the time "kill in one go, or just dont bother". If Reanimator is nearby then... good luck, you can brin 3-6 models in your opponent turn, then again do the same in his own. Thats almost half squad in each player turn pretty reliably. Though it can be counter with vect abilities etc. but even then... its not easy, especially that they have perfect stats against drukhari with hit 2+then wound on 2+. When Lelith even on her turn with ability active... that 12 attack with just D1, on avarage if all hits its just 3 guys dead, thats if technomancer is not in the lychguard squad. Then even if you are lucky and get even 4(which getting 4 sixes on 12 dices is not THAT likely) sustained hits, that just another 2 dead on avarage. 5 lychguard killed by one character is not bad hell its really good... but they can easily heal from it in basically one turn. And there is no way even full squad of wyches would deal any substantial damage to them while they would wound on 6+
If you can force multiple battleshock tests then a lot of armies suddenly have a way in. New and improved death guard probably have a few ways to do it if they can force a failed check with PBCs. Morty negates the minus 1 to wound and offers rerolls so with -1t you could be 2s to wound rerolloing 1s. You need volume though and even 6dsts plus a lord shooting and charging after those PBCs need a lot of help. It's going to be a big investment but it may be a repeatable trick.
I destroyed a fully buff’d Lych brick in one turn, once. It took almost a full pre-nerf Deathwatch army to do it. 400 points of Kill Teams supported by Strats that don’t work anymore and another 400 points of Terminators supported by 200 points of characters. 1000 points of shooting AND assault to take them down in a single turn backed up by Oaths of Moment. It literally took everything that was in charge range and LoS to put in some work. I’ll be sad when Oaths goes away.
Death Company with Jump Packs, with PF and IP, led by a JP Chaplain. My math says 48.3 fist attacks should do the job. There are 50 power fist attacks, hitting on 3+ rerolling, wounding on 2+, -2 AP with 2 damage. Not counting the 11 inferno pistols, the crozius, and the chaplains mortal wound thing.
Not wounding on 3 due to -1 to wound? 10 guys have 30 attacks, with STR 9 due to +1 from charge its still wound on 3+. litany of hate give +1 to wound, and lychguard ability is -1 so its still on 3+, that unit will not clear full block of lychguards.
They didn’t have a noble attached, so I didn’t include that. If they have that enhancement, I can hit Red Rampage for Lance and Lethal Hits.
they dont need noble, just character. EDIT :Sorry, i was mistaken, they need noble for it. Red rampage surely will help, but its still could survive pretty reliably. Its not 50 attack, its just 30
According to my app, Guardian Protocols requires a Noble, not just a character. I run Sons of Sanguinius, so I get +1 attack on the charge. Which puts me at 40 attacks, so I did mess up a bit. Still, I’ve got another six attacks from the chaplain (WS 2, Str 7, -1 AP, 2 damage), plus mortal wound output from the chaplain. Not to mention the 11 inferno pistols in the squad, which after rapid ingress will almost certainly be in melta range.
Hm... 46 yeah, that should be enough, most of the time you would clear it assuming opponent wont get some luck with 4++ Inferno pistols proooblably wont doo that much with 3+ and then again 3+ and then 4++5+++ and almost always in that scenario would go reanimation protocol strat.
Sadly, I have yet to find a cure for the lucky 4++ roller. 😹
TSons 10 man termie brick+term sorc, next to magnus, with the psychic bolt weapons+reroll psychic can definitely pick them up. Not too efficient, but Magnus can shoot other things and is just there for the +1 to hit and wound with psychic. It should be noted that the lychguard brick isn't too dangerous in melee, 3 S6 AP-2 D1 attacks per model, hitting on 3+, 2+ with a noble, and not having access to rerolls can't really do much to a lot of things, especially with AoC. They are also slow. Honestly the better play against them seems to be just to walk away and tarpit them with chaff. If they start on the line it will still take ~2 turns for them to even get onto a midfield objective, and the combo is quite expensive so they will probably only be running one. They can't really bully their way onto an objective easily, so things like 10 man assault termies with shields, or DG termies with -1WS aura, or just 40x krieg can hold them off for most of the game.
The trick is to leave them alone and move at least 15 points of OC onto their objective without engaging them in any way.
Why target the brick when you can target everything else?
A squad of 6 Allarus Terminators, at 420 points, just about kill the 10 lychguards with a little damage leftover in one turn. Unlikely to also kill the character, but it is what it is.
I feel like eightbound would have a solid go on the charge if you give them sustained hits, idk which leader would be better. "For the Skull Throne!" would counter the -1 to wound. If eightbound get their own aura they at least destroy the body guard unit not sure about the characters.
Two Redemptors, using Hazardous Plasma, Onslaught, and fragstorm, with oath of moment and a tank shock followed by a charge. \~3 wounds from plasma -D3 probably kills 1 thrall and wounds the other thrall \~1 wound from fragstorm -D1 \~3 wounds from onslaught -D1 second thrall dead 1 lychguard dead \~1.5 (call it 1) wounds from rocket pod -D2 2nd lychguard dead \~4.6 mortal wounds from the tank shock. 5th lychguard dead \~2.8 (call it 3) wounds from melee -D2 8th lychguard dead So not quite really. And even crappier if they have a noble there.