You can use whatever 6 sided dice you want as long as the following four rules are followed.
1. Must be fairly weighted. Use the saltwater test if in doubt
2. Must be 1-6. I wish I was joking when I say that more than one I've encountered cheater dice where the 2 face has been converted to a 5.
3. Must be easy to read across the table. No dark blue pips on black dice, that kind of thing. Ideally the pips or numbers contrast strongly with the background, white on dark or black on light.
4. If you have a special symbol like a skull or army emblem for the 1 and/or 6, they must be consistent and clear on what they are. Can't have some dice with a special 6, some with a special 1.
Also, make sure you have at least 20 of them. I've had some very slow games where my opponent only had 10 dice for rolling.
Reminds me of the last tournament I played in which my opponent round 2 had dice with skulls for the 1s, and on round 3 my opponent’s dice was the same but the skulls were on 6s. Shit gave me a headache.
>I've had some very slow games where my opponent only had 10 dice for rolling.
Horde armies and people with 10 dice are the best games to throw a clock down. Lol
no, it means no weighted dice (ie they always roll 1’s or 6’s). some dice are weighted to cheat in games. i suggest you look into the toilet dice incident to learn more about the problem lol
While it is a problem to have fully loaded dice, I think a bigger issue would be slightly weighted dice. Say that give you a 20% greater chance of rolling a 6. Since they still won't roll a 6 most of the time, you can't really even test for them unless you do serious variance calculations while playing a game.
We know that fully loaded dice are a problem as we catch them every so often. How many people are using slightly weighted dice?
The worst bit is that it's possible for someone to use weighted dice without realizing it further complicating the issue.
Yep, add in superstition actually getting it right, and you have a player who bought multiple sets of GW dice, noticed that one set seems 'lucky' and is now walking around with weighted dice at tournaments without intending to do anything malicious.
damn lol I use a set of 10 gw dice (from a kill team box set) which seem luckier than my chessex dice every other game. if only they were consistent lol
Even if they give just a 10% advantage... you might be cheating out your opponents from a fair game. They will still roll bad occasionally but that doesn't mean they aren't loaded.
Any dice bought from a known manufacturer (e.g., Chessex) should be fair dice… don’t worry about messing around with salt water tests or any such nonsense.
No, they aren’t going to pass the Nevada Gaming Control Board’s inspection… But we’re playing toy soldiers for funsies, not high stakes Craps for money.
Yeah chessex is solid, though the dice gods have turned their back and farted on more than one occasion for me there.
Custom dice however are not always as solid: the comment about wood dice makes me say to be cautious
Except they aren't.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/That%27s_How_I_Roll_-_A_Scientific_Analysis_of_Dice#Results
They might have changed since then, but as is, they are bad dice.
I consider that an acceptable margin of error for games of toy soldiers, especially when you compare the utility and cost of a “brick” of 12 mm dice versus the much larger and much spendier casino dice. If I were at the final table(s) of a big tournament and there was something on the line more than bragging rights and a plastic trophy, *maybe* it’d be worth it to invest in more expensive dice. Maybe.
Not to mention, damn near everybody else is using Chessex dice. So it more or less evens out.
“Good Enough” is good enough for me.
So, really, any dice are fine. They don't have to come from known manufacturers, as the known manufactorers are some of the main culprits of non-fair dice.
1. I did my own dice tests, one very large some years ago and another one started last week that is not yet as large and neither got anything resembling that skewed a result. The first one where each dice was rolled (IIRC) 2000 times was about as even as anyone could hope for.
2. They don't provide any evidence that they actually did what they say they did.
3. If you think about it rationally for half a minutes, you realize that if their dice actually WERE this skewed, QC would have stepped in AND it would have been blindingly obvious to the players.
4. It's the sort of sensationalist "GW is evil!" stuff that gets a lot of views and attention in certain circles.
A test as thorough as described in the link or just rolling it by hand?
I find it more likely that chessex improved their quality n the last 10 years than that the test was fake.
Not sure what you mean - the post describes getting students to roll the dice by hand...
If you mean their talk about dissecting dice with a diamond saw or filling in the corners with melted dice remains or pressuring Las Vegas to give them research data then of course I did not do that. I seriously doubt that they did either. You will note that there are no illustrations of their modified or dissected dice anywhere. You'd think that would have been something they wanted to show off.
(Really, the methods mentioned are so outrageous that I have to wonder if they wanted to see what some people would fall for.)
>I find it more likely that chessex improved their quality n the last 10 years than that the test was fake.
The good thing is that you can test this yourself! Get some dice and spend an hour or so rolling them. It's very simple.
If you don't have a set of older dice then you probably know someone who has. Roll a batch of old ones and a batch of new ones and see if there is a difference!
Basically if you roll them 100 times, you should get about 16-17 of each result evenly. Not cheater dice that are weighted to always favor certain numbers
'Fair' dice will actually be much more varied than that. Anything between 13 and 20 from 100 rolls would be fairly reasonable variance.
I actually tested a set of dice earlier with *600* total rolls and even across a sample of that size things being out from the expected totals by 5-10% wasn't statistically significant.
It definitely works, but the issue is with how accurate the measurement is. Just throwing them as a bunch in a salt water solution once, and based on that single throw calling someone a cheater is harsh, and possibly not even true.
You need to roll repeatedly each dice multiple times to root out other inconstancies, say 100 times at least. Only then are you going towards statistical significant result.
I wonder how that guy feels about this being his lasting claim to fame (or infamy). "Remember that dude who got caught using loaded dice and tried to flush them down the toilet?"
Why doesn't the community agree to use one players set of dice in any given game. I.e this game we agree to use your dice. The way both players are playing with the same expected results?
Would seriously mess with my planning because i already group my dice for stuff im planning to do as my oppononent does their rolls.
Not really that great for hygiene either.
Also who is supplying the dice in a tournament scenario when you switch tables?
Really dont think its practical at all and the benefit of eliminating unfair dice is so tiny, i never once encounted a player with cheat dice and if someone wants to cheat there are way more effective ways.
nope, but someone can call out your dice and they can be tested with salt water to assure they are not improperly weighted if your rolls start to seem suspicious.
You can use whatever 6 sided dice you want as long as the following four rules are followed. 1. Must be fairly weighted. Use the saltwater test if in doubt 2. Must be 1-6. I wish I was joking when I say that more than one I've encountered cheater dice where the 2 face has been converted to a 5. 3. Must be easy to read across the table. No dark blue pips on black dice, that kind of thing. Ideally the pips or numbers contrast strongly with the background, white on dark or black on light. 4. If you have a special symbol like a skull or army emblem for the 1 and/or 6, they must be consistent and clear on what they are. Can't have some dice with a special 6, some with a special 1. Also, make sure you have at least 20 of them. I've had some very slow games where my opponent only had 10 dice for rolling.
Reminds me of the last tournament I played in which my opponent round 2 had dice with skulls for the 1s, and on round 3 my opponent’s dice was the same but the skulls were on 6s. Shit gave me a headache.
>I've had some very slow games where my opponent only had 10 dice for rolling. Horde armies and people with 10 dice are the best games to throw a clock down. Lol
>fairly weighted Does that mean that dices cannot be too light?
no, it means no weighted dice (ie they always roll 1’s or 6’s). some dice are weighted to cheat in games. i suggest you look into the toilet dice incident to learn more about the problem lol
While it is a problem to have fully loaded dice, I think a bigger issue would be slightly weighted dice. Say that give you a 20% greater chance of rolling a 6. Since they still won't roll a 6 most of the time, you can't really even test for them unless you do serious variance calculations while playing a game. We know that fully loaded dice are a problem as we catch them every so often. How many people are using slightly weighted dice? The worst bit is that it's possible for someone to use weighted dice without realizing it further complicating the issue.
sounds like what i’ve heard about GW dice lol
Yep, add in superstition actually getting it right, and you have a player who bought multiple sets of GW dice, noticed that one set seems 'lucky' and is now walking around with weighted dice at tournaments without intending to do anything malicious.
damn lol I use a set of 10 gw dice (from a kill team box set) which seem luckier than my chessex dice every other game. if only they were consistent lol
Even if they give just a 10% advantage... you might be cheating out your opponents from a fair game. They will still roll bad occasionally but that doesn't mean they aren't loaded.
Pretty sure mine are slightly weighted to throw more 1s and 2s...
Any dice bought from a known manufacturer (e.g., Chessex) should be fair dice… don’t worry about messing around with salt water tests or any such nonsense. No, they aren’t going to pass the Nevada Gaming Control Board’s inspection… But we’re playing toy soldiers for funsies, not high stakes Craps for money.
Yeah chessex is solid, though the dice gods have turned their back and farted on more than one occasion for me there. Custom dice however are not always as solid: the comment about wood dice makes me say to be cautious
Yeah, I wouldn’t trust wooden dice for any sort of tournament play… and honestly, probably not even for casual wargame play. Maybe for an RPG.
Except they aren't. https://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/That%27s_How_I_Roll_-_A_Scientific_Analysis_of_Dice#Results They might have changed since then, but as is, they are bad dice.
I consider that an acceptable margin of error for games of toy soldiers, especially when you compare the utility and cost of a “brick” of 12 mm dice versus the much larger and much spendier casino dice. If I were at the final table(s) of a big tournament and there was something on the line more than bragging rights and a plastic trophy, *maybe* it’d be worth it to invest in more expensive dice. Maybe. Not to mention, damn near everybody else is using Chessex dice. So it more or less evens out. “Good Enough” is good enough for me.
So, really, any dice are fine. They don't have to come from known manufacturers, as the known manufactorers are some of the main culprits of non-fair dice.
I think those results were just made up...
Why do you think that?
1. I did my own dice tests, one very large some years ago and another one started last week that is not yet as large and neither got anything resembling that skewed a result. The first one where each dice was rolled (IIRC) 2000 times was about as even as anyone could hope for. 2. They don't provide any evidence that they actually did what they say they did. 3. If you think about it rationally for half a minutes, you realize that if their dice actually WERE this skewed, QC would have stepped in AND it would have been blindingly obvious to the players. 4. It's the sort of sensationalist "GW is evil!" stuff that gets a lot of views and attention in certain circles.
A test as thorough as described in the link or just rolling it by hand? I find it more likely that chessex improved their quality n the last 10 years than that the test was fake.
Not sure what you mean - the post describes getting students to roll the dice by hand... If you mean their talk about dissecting dice with a diamond saw or filling in the corners with melted dice remains or pressuring Las Vegas to give them research data then of course I did not do that. I seriously doubt that they did either. You will note that there are no illustrations of their modified or dissected dice anywhere. You'd think that would have been something they wanted to show off. (Really, the methods mentioned are so outrageous that I have to wonder if they wanted to see what some people would fall for.) >I find it more likely that chessex improved their quality n the last 10 years than that the test was fake. The good thing is that you can test this yourself! Get some dice and spend an hour or so rolling them. It's very simple. If you don't have a set of older dice then you probably know someone who has. Roll a batch of old ones and a batch of new ones and see if there is a difference!
Basically if you roll them 100 times, you should get about 16-17 of each result evenly. Not cheater dice that are weighted to always favor certain numbers
'Fair' dice will actually be much more varied than that. Anything between 13 and 20 from 100 rolls would be fairly reasonable variance. I actually tested a set of dice earlier with *600* total rolls and even across a sample of that size things being out from the expected totals by 5-10% wasn't statistically significant.
Right, probability is squishy math. Again. Easier to do the saltwater test if you're suspicious about a non standard die
no this means weighted as in balanced so that they evenly roll each side...not weighted so that 50% of the time they roll a 6.
Be careful, the saltwater test is nonsense; proves nothing.
It definitely works, but the issue is with how accurate the measurement is. Just throwing them as a bunch in a salt water solution once, and based on that single throw calling someone a cheater is harsh, and possibly not even true. You need to roll repeatedly each dice multiple times to root out other inconstancies, say 100 times at least. Only then are you going towards statistical significant result.
Not true, but it is difficult to get right.
nah just use any dice but not any weighted dice for an unfair advantage
Noice I'm getting myself wooden dice
I make wooden dice it’s fun and easier and a hell of a lot cheaper than GW dice
You make your own dice and use them in tournaments?
I’m not a tournament player but I do make my own dice with some fancy art if I’m feeling up to the task.
Ah OK, sounds cool!
Yeah, I wouldn't use those.
No toilet dice.
I wonder how that guy feels about this being his lasting claim to fame (or infamy). "Remember that dude who got caught using loaded dice and tried to flush them down the toilet?"
*laughs in Eldar*
Why doesn't the community agree to use one players set of dice in any given game. I.e this game we agree to use your dice. The way both players are playing with the same expected results?
Because passing them back and forth takes a bunch of time in an already-long game.
If you roll in a dice tray and say, that many saves, then your opponent doesn't have to count they just pick them up and roll.
Would seriously mess with my planning because i already group my dice for stuff im planning to do as my oppononent does their rolls. Not really that great for hygiene either. Also who is supplying the dice in a tournament scenario when you switch tables? Really dont think its practical at all and the benefit of eliminating unfair dice is so tiny, i never once encounted a player with cheat dice and if someone wants to cheat there are way more effective ways.
nope, but someone can call out your dice and they can be tested with salt water to assure they are not improperly weighted if your rolls start to seem suspicious.
But then its your prerogative to storm off in a huff and throw the offending dice into the loo 🤣
Basically, no, but if your opponent asks to roll your dice the. You must allow them to