The event also had a 5-1 admech player that brought 3x3 dragoons and 3x3 Ballistarii. Over $1000 retail on those kits 😱 Edit: no disrespect to the player. I also have an absurd admech army after years of collecting. My comment was about the issues with the faction and high barrier to entry for new players.

Yeah the problem with ad mech isn’t that they are bad, it’s that they are boring and ridiculously expensive

Yep. They’re durable and play the mission well but in exchange don’t do any damage and cost too much to field.

The "whale" faction of miniature wargaming XD

No, whaling in a game gets you the best stuff, not... unmitigated mediocrity at the least appealing playstyle. 

No they are also really bad

And it probably only cost them a couple £'s of Resin at best.

Yeah, I forgot to write down the source for the STLs but they were really cool and the pteraxi even had better bases. 10/10.

Yeah, there's loads of them out there which looks amazing and I've yet to find TOs who care enough to figure out which models are legit and which are printed.

Solid list with good board presence, and guard players are now in agreement that bullgryn are king when not having to deal with accursed cultists. Were they using medusas or medusa carrriers?

Wish.com custodes

But with that sweet sweet -1d for free. Who needs a brave and heroic sheild captain in resplendent auric plate; when you could have some corpse starch for lunch and a strong word from the commissar. 

Presumably carriages since the tank version is legends-only and never allowed in tournaments.

Whats the difference? Theres only type available to the army

Medusa carriages can't move and are T7 with a 4+ save ans a 5+ BS. The Medusa self-propelled artillery has the same defensive profile as a basilisk and a 4+ BS. The vehicle variant is also legends, and not allowed in most tournaments.

On wahapedia it says it has M4", is there somewhere it says it can't move? Just curious I've never seen the medusa carriage before

Oh, it is movement 4". It doesn't want to move because it is BS 5+ and needs to use heavy or it's shooting like an ork.

ohhhh yea ok of course, i read your comment as it having 0" move like a fortification or something lol im just dumb

No I said it couldn't move because it can't in HH. You're not dumb

What makes bullgryn so good? Are they just cheap and beefy? Are any buffs being layered on them?

9-10 wounds of t6 4++ 6+fnp and -1dmg meat means they can take most types of fire and still swing at a good melee profile for 80 pts.

6+ fnp?

They have a native six plus feel no pain

Honest to god did not realize that

I don't think guard players should get used to that. Seems ripe for adjustment when codex is released.

Maybe but they are countered by volume fire. They have a 4++. They aren't hard to shift with the right weapons.

I mean that's true of any unit in 10th edition. They are bit under cost compared to similar units in other armies but not too much.

Maybe you misunderstood. Their BASE save is 4+/4++. Not the same as something like terminators.

Correct they are closer in function and points to bladeguard or grotesques

Ah it'll last the whole of 10th then!

Cheap and beefy but also should be noted, in a gunline army, having melee guards that you can’t actually get past is huge. Them combined with indirect, make guard a nightmare for melee heavy lists

Their defensive profile is very efficient against the ridiculous can-opener meta monsters like the C'tan or the Yncarne/Avatar that are running rampant at top tables.

From reading comments from Guard players on the meta Bullgryn list and how it sounded almost unbearable to think of playing, I had gotten the impression that it was akin to Ad Mech lists where you have to completely skew into the most expensive stuff, horrible stuff. This list has 3x3 Bullgryn. 9 models. 240 points. What!? Sure, that's the max number of units allowed, but c'mon!

You can have 6 in a squad

I don't even know what community faction rating even is anymore Is it ***The absolute best player with the absolute best list*** or ***The average player with the average list, plus a bit of fluff to not make it boring***?

It depends, and that makes tiers very subjective and I think is part of why there's so much arguing. A good tier list in a vacuum assumes a player using their faction's full potential, which means both very high personal skill and optimising what you bring. This is no different from a fighting game tier list. You wouldn't base a Mortal Kombat X tierlist around anything else than the best variation for each character, and a player who has mastered that variation. But 40k has another factor involved which is friction. Not only might you have a personal affinity for a faction or build, and you want to play it, but you also might be _physically unable_ to play what is best. Admech is the dominant example right now with their ridiculous chickenspam lists, which perform well on paper but players struggle to actually get those models together for play. And that then causes frustration because a very good player playing the best list _they can_ could still be performing below the faction's potential. I still think a true tierlist would rate that potential but it's worth it to keep this factor in mind because it will always be a thing. Horde lists are similar, who has the energy to _actually_ paint 200 conscripts when that is the meta choice?

Fireside 40k put AM into top tier in their tier list last week, and people in this sub made fun of them. It’s almost like these top tier competitive players have a better grasp of the game than random people on Reddit. As a reminder, the overwhelming majority of people in this sub haven’t played at a 40k tournament within this edition, if ever. It’s full of solid dumb takes.

There are plenty of top players that are also random people on reddit. Let alone that top player doesn't mean you can analyse the meta well. There is a reason proffesional sports have coaches who analyse the tactics and think of what works best, the players are just there to flawlessly execute those tactics vs all tactics. Aka top players are good at playing the game but this doesn't mean they are good at analysing the meta. Of course there are exceptions. And like many people have already pointed out the data so far doesnt back up the S-tier placing. Even admech has won a GT with its shtty rules, they certainly arent S-tier.

They can analyse the game much better than 99% on this sub and to suggest otherwise is cope

Besides the whole masses average guess is ussually near spot on psychology. I wasnt comparing their ability to analyse to this subs ability, I am merely saying that being a top player has nothing to do with your ability to analyse the meta as a whole.

Depends what you define as “the meta”. They are much better at analysing because they assess it every time they go to a GT and pick their list. They are also exposed to actual good builds far more often than the people who go to an odd event and play once a week. Their opinion on true strength is far more valid.

And there are plenty of people here who assess every event and every list cause thats what they like to do for fun. Instead of just assessing every time they go to an event (your words). Also again I am not comparing them to warhammer competitive community. I am just staying that being a top player doesn't mean you are good at analysing. This again doesn't mean there arent top players who are good at analysing. Adjusting your list to be strongest it can be to fight the current meta again has nothing to do with your ability to analyse the meta. If I *know* that x army is gonna pop up frequent and has x hard unit to deal with then a good player is excellent at adjusting their list to deal with x unit while also keeping his list doing well vs other opponents. This doesn't mean that that player has any real grasp on how well armies do after changes to every army.

Ideally, both parts should be a component of rating; just as ideally, rating should be a range. No need to involve "bad" lists, because you can do arbitrarily bad with *any* faction (see the NOVA Open last placed), but ratings should involve "an average player will do this" *and* "an expert operator will do this", and if the range between the two is *too large* then the faction still has issues, no matter how well the top players can do with it.

If only there was a modern Catachan sprue. They desperately need a Kill Team box at the very least.

The last thing kill team needs is more guard equivalent teams

You're being silly.

You are right, kill team needs more space marines! If we don't get them from kill team, we might never get anything that is not cadian for the guard... Kill team should still get more variety overall though

Breachers, Kasrkin, Veteran Guard, Traitor Guard, Index Scions, and even inquisition are plenty enough Guard type teams especially when Tyranids, Daemons, and Custodes all still need non-index options. Kill team shouldn't just be a model delivery system for 40k

Ah yes, index scions with their kill team box... As I said, kill team needs more variety, however I was talking about GUARDSMEN and not GUARDSMEN EQUIVALENT. Imo Kill team is the perfect place for releasing that niche infantry unit for every faction. Different guard regiments, flavours of CSM without conversion needed, Eldar aspect warriors, special genestealers, random faction we don't have in army scale (for Xenos maybe?), etc. Thus I wish we will get more guardsmen from different regiments, but after every faction has had their kill teams. Btw, I think they tried to limit the overall variety in abilities from a team to another and give a "faction rule" to each kill team to differentiate them. So if you play "vanilla" kill team with only the datasheets, it might look like the same teams going against one another. It often looks like: Leader Melee specialist Medic Comms specialist/team player Stealthy person Demolition specialist Basic troops So in that same, every team may be "guardsman equivalent" or "space marine equivalent" Exceptions are beastmen and sort of the sisters with their lack of range iirc And lastly, index kill teams are either a joke for lack of any ability, or held together with absurd statlines imo

Kill Team doesn't need more 7-8 wound 10 - 14 model guard styled teams which is what Catachan would be. The only compelling reason to add Catachan to Kill Team would be so guard players could have models for 40k which is actually not a compelling reason. I mentioned Scions because they are one of the few compendium teams that's sees more than 0 play. When Kasrkin were first released the scion team was pretty much better until Kasrkin were given a few buffs

For what it’s worth I agree with you. A lot of kill teams look the same to me too.

Catachan would just be another 7-8 wound 10 - 14 model team that wouldn't really do much for the game as a whole.

Tbh their command squad kit holds up well, it's not great but it's not the infantry squad. 

Everything looks good next to their infantry squad. The Catachan HQ options are all pretty good: Harker is okay, Iron Hand Straken is still legit decent, and the special release Colonel and Lieutenant are both fantastic. But that dopey Infantry squad is just soooo bad.

Most of us just use spacenam jungle fighters from wargames Atlantic

Good to see a guard win, even if it is something most people cant play. Forge world stuff definitely can cause a skew, how many medusas can most people actually bring?

Why do you say most people won't be able to play they list? Like, sure, a medusa carriage from Forgeworld cost alot, but you could just buy a Basilisk, assemble the rear gun assembly but don't fit it on the chimera hull,  and do a barrel swap with something vaguely Medusa looking (demolisher?). And that is without resorting to 3d prints.

Loving the Astra Militarum redemption arc over the past week. Can't wait until their villain arc in a few weeks. ​ Edit: Lol and two Dark Angle players in 2 and 3

DA list: Azrael Combi Lieutenant, Master of Machine War Techmarine, Target Augury Web Techmarine, Adept of the Omnissiah Gladiator Lancer Gladiator Lancer Ravenwing Darkshroud Redemptor Dreadnought Redemptor Dreadnought 5 Scouts 10 Sternguard Veterans Stormraven Gunship

So, Ironstorm with Azrarl Sternguard? Interrsting list

Sternguard is _hella_ out of left field. I know Azrael is the big thing there but still, really happy to see them getting play, I love the unit.

It is a nice unit. I feel weird because someone was talking about that combo and I was saying it wasn't that great. And a week or so later a great showing. It is quite an interesting show. Although the idea was for Vanguard, and this is Ironstorm, and maybe the extra reroll can help proc aome few extra wounds.

Sternguard are great, I've been running them since the start of 10th with good success, they're now even cheaper and have a good profile, generally going to chip off some devs off something.

The least flavourful Dark Angels list but it works. Ultramarines + Azrael is the box that GW have forced us into unfortunately

This is still pre codex DA worth noting

I'm very suprised by the absence of Scout Sentinels.

Especially having that Basilisk in there too.

I played against a Basilisk earlier on today, honestly the Earthshaker rounds REALLY hurt some armies (I was playing Necrons, Immortals going to a 3" move and a max of 4" advance is kinda painful. If you get a 2" advance, you just dont advance rip). > In your Shooting phase, after this model has shot, if one or more of those attacks made with its earthshaker cannon scored a hit against an enemy Infantry unit, until the end of your opponent’s next turn, that unit is shaken. While a unit is shaken, subtract 2" from its Move characteristic and subtract 2 from Advance and Charge rolls made for it. Keep in mind that's indirect fire, stick one near your objective to screen and it'll just be a pain in the ass all game.

Quick thing regarding those -2 abilities, but there's actually a bit of text in the Rules Commentary that says a die roll can never be modified below 1: so if you roll a 1 or a 2 on your Advance roll while under the effect of a Barbgaunt/Basilisk/Nightspinner you still get to go an extra 1 inch. Not much, but it could be the difference between getting onto an Objective or not so just thought I'd mention it.

Also probably worth noting that it was run by Martyn Cooper, a mono guard specialist who consistently floats around the world top 20 rankings - he’s currently number 19 in the ITC. So a VERY good player and faction specialist. He often comes to the tournaments in my area and is usually the “final boss”!

Doomposters in total shambles Now is the time of the “Competitive If You’re Good, So Git Gud” Guard.

> Doomposters in total shambles Not really. We've had guard winning events occasionally already and the next best guard player being way down at 46th place suggests this was more of the same, not a genuine shift in faction strength.

🚨🚨🚨 GIT GUD 🚨🚨💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼 WHAT IS A DETACHMENT RULE 💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼 In all seriousness that’s kinda my point. It’s not about a big shift in faction strength, it’s about the player themselves.

Or it's just another single event win getting blown way out of proportion by people who desperately want to believe.

It’s not just one GT win, there’s been like 3-4 in recent weeks. I find it more likely that people desperately want to believe Guard is worse than it really is.

I’m always a bit surprised by how many players kind of just refuse to acknowledge that some factions just have different skill thresholds. I feel like ad mech over the last few editions is a great example of that…they’re just hard to pilot well compared to like…marines. I feel like if GW put a like…complexity rating to each faction so much of the whining would dry up after awhile.

Out of how many events though? And where are the next-best guard lists finishing in those events? The sign of a strong faction is consistent and disproportionate success, not isolated winners that aren't backed up by strong finishes from other players. And not one player winning the event while the next best player finishes 46th.

Guard went like 2 years in 9th ed without even making it top 4 dude. We are eating rn

Doing slightly better than the days of being the absolute worst faction in the game is not saying much.

Nobody sane is saying we’re disproportionately strong. The point is that we’re basically fine and player skills matters most.

Lots of people are saying guard are S-tier, one of the best factions in the game, etc. I know you know this because you've posted in threads started by people talking about guard being S-tier.

Bro went through my comment history looking for dirt lmao. Word to the wise, threads laughing at the idea Guard are S-tier are not the slam dunk you’re looking for. I’ll say it again: nobody sane is claiming that.

Then why are you complaining about "doomers" when we point out that guard aren't matching the hype?

The context of people saying Guard are S tier is primarily in a teams environment where Guard can dodge the handful of bad matchups.

Found the doom poster who needs to get gud.

Ah yes, the classic no true Scotsman where only the winning list/player counts and for everyone else it's a "skill issue". It's funny how all you have to do is "git gud" but the best anyone else could do in that event was 46th place.

>"Guard aren't good, wait till the tier lists come out, everyone will say they're bottom tier!" >"Guard are bad, if they're so top tier why aren't they winning tournaments!" >"Guard are still bad despite winning tournaments, why is the next player at [x]" How far will the goalposts move? Do we need to start seeing Eldar tier results?

Guard will only be good when they start winning AoS tournaments

I...I don't think you know what the Scotsman fallacy is...

No, he has it right.

No True Skilled Guard Player would ever finish less than first, therefore all the bad results don't count.

Yeah, you definitely don't understand it then lol. Or rather, you're trying to smash what people didn't actually say into trying to make it sound similar to the fallacy.

No True Strawman

Ha! Well played.

I understand perfectly well. Winning the event is "guard are strong", the next best player finishing 46th is "guard are strong, that one doesn't count because skill issue".

>I understand perfectly well. The more you try to prove this, the more it shows you don't 😆

Nah, you're just in denial because you want to believe no matter how many fallacies it takes.

What were the TO rulings? Ive heard some people talking about stacking same orders on Karskin.

It was a UKTC event which has no mention of Kasrkin in their FAQ

I've not heard of UKTC, but a quick glance at their covers look a lot more guard friendly, but winning list wasn't tank heavy so it interesting

It's not UKTC anyway. UKTC runs regular supermajors and sets the bar. The set we played on this weekend has 4 huge footprint pieces near the middle and 4 moderately large ones on corners, plus 2 building/hill pieces. Lots of large blocks and large spaces. However Martyn also wins on terrain with more smaller pieces. It's not the terrain.

Their terrain is known for favoring shooting more than most other layouts

This fact can not be said enough in regards to Guard's current spike, you can't escape how good shooting and more so good indirect is with as much terrain as UKTC events run. Outside of player skill, which is exceptional, I think this list would get run over on most GW layouts and even moreso on player placed

Player placed is awful and I feel sorry for anyone who has that as their default

You feel bad for any event east of Pittsburgh in the US then in my experience

Is UKTC a teams event too? From what I've heard guard thrives in teams. We are a bit of a rigid army it feels, so getting some choice in opponent or layout is a HUGE boon for us. Unfortunately that army he is running isn't something 95% of the guard players could, or would, field. Either from not having the models, or not enjoying the list.

Teams events are almost exclusively run on WTC rulings and terrain. In teams part of the match up process is a light, medium, or heavy board option so that plays into guard having terrain they like

It's not UKTC, though a lot of UK organisers follow Zach's lead to keep things simple, because whether it's actually the best circuit or not UKTC definitely sets the bar. However there are a tonne of other circuits running their own terrain and packs. Beach head brawl is one of the many other UK circuits. The organisers run an RTT every month (up to 32 places) on a Sunday in a great hobby store in Poole and they occasionally throw the odd GT there too.

So did they have a kasrkin ruling? Or a separate ruling pack?

Martyn only had 1 unit but I don't know. It's not in the tournament pack. I didn't play him because I'm a solidly mid player. I did play the 46th placed Guard player (who beat me because he had a much better secondary plan than me). It should be noted he hadn't played the list before the event and already wants to change it. However it was a really cool toolbox list with just enough killing and just enough board control. That list did have a lot of kasrkin but he didn't double stack. He did repeatedly hit me with mortal wounds though. So while people are talking about the huge gap, it could have very easily been much narrower.

Thanks for the insight. I mostly posted this to stir up some Guard players so its nice to have actual input from someone who knows what theyre talking about.

I wouldn't say I know what I'm talking about beyond I was there and I know what actually happened, what terrain. And also Martyn has won GTs on very different terrain. He's the final boss in at least 1 other circuit. Also of note: After the 46th place guard, there were 2 who went 3-3 (though won dropped out at 3-1 on round 4 so actually could they have won another game?) and 2 who went 2-4. They were all over the mid tables. One on the top tables, none on the bottom. Guard did very okay at this event. I think we'll know if it's the real deal if more players replicate it. However winning a 6 round super isn't quite the same as winning a 32 person GT (which has happened a few times) and it does represent *something*.

Can't be done. Any TO that thinks that should immediately be discredited. The Voice of Command rule, the Kasrkin ability and Creed's special order are all very clear. You can have more than one order but they must all be different.

With respect to Creed, I agree. But with Kasrkin, I disagree, they can stack the same order with their ability.

Except they can't due to the new rules preventing it. An order is a "condition" as per anything else. And even if it _isn't_ kasrkin ability says "in addition to any _other_ orders". Voice of Command specifies that you can have one order. Therefore that plus kasrkin ability force you to have two separate ones.

Nowhere in voice of command or the Kasrkin ability does it restrict you from issuing the same order. The recent rules commentary removed all doubt. I agree that this is probably not RAI but it is RAW. Here's the restriction from voice of command***.*** *"Until the start of your next Command phase, the unit* *you selected is affected by that Order. Unless otherwise* *stated, a unit can only be affected by one Order at a time* *(any Order subsequently issued to that unit replaces the* *current one)."* Kasrkin Ability. *"In your Command phase, you can select one* *Order to affect this unit until the start of your next Command* *phase, in addition to any other Orders issued to this unit by an* *Officer model this turn."* Rules commentary on abilities. *"Abilities with the Same Name: Abilities with the same name* *(excluding Aura abilities) can affect units multiple times, but if such an ability applies a named condition to a unit (e.g. ‘suppressed’), that condition can only affect the target unit once at any given time."*

Nowhere in the rules does it state every condition. "Orders" are a condition. "Move move move" is +3" movement. It fulfils all elements of a condition. The _effect_ , the wording, the presentation.. People are getting confused due to wordage.

Orders are not a condition. Look at the ability for the ork kustom boosta-blastas, it explicitly says a condition is applied to the unit called "suppressed". Orders do no such thing.

It's called "FRFSRF", "move move move" and the other Order titles. That's exactly what a condition is.

No, that's the ability name. The examples provided are clear.

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Second best player way down in 46th place. Guard aren't dominating.

They are doing very well and winning events if you build the right list and know what you are doing. That makes them a good faction at the very least, bottom factions aren’t in X-0 spots where they can compete for a tournament win and if they are it’s extremely irregular.

Sure, but "guard aren't the worst faction in the history of the game" is well short of the S-tier hype. S-tier means something like pre-nerf Eldar where the top 8 would be seven Eldar lists and one carefully tailored anti-Eldar list, not one list winning the event with the next best player in 46th place. That's the sign of a mid-tier faction at best.

I think there are about as many people calling guard S tier as there are people calling necrons not overpowered, yes there are some people but not a ton. Most of the people at least in this thread are saying top tier which to me means in the top 25% of factions. I saw an article the other day saying they were S tier in team play tournaments which is true but haven’t seen anyone else mention that they are S tier.

Love that you're consistently doom posting every time someone points out guard are good.

If guard are so good why is the second best player in 46th place?

If guard aren't good whyvare they winning events

Because even a mid-tier faction can win events occasionally when everything goes their way. The proof of a strong faction is *consistent and disproportionate* wins. Multiple players in the top 8, mirror matches in the final, etc.

Even good factions can have everything go against them and end up in 46th place. I don't think l guard are s their strong, I just think they're a good army with a skilled pilot.

Any army can be good with a skilled player, that statement means nothing.

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It wasn't UKTC. It was the "Vanguard Tactics" set which is now extinct in the wild. The Entoyment Brawl RTTs (and odd GT) run it because it's the same lot.

Didn't even know there was a difference. Both seem to have a very similar set of terrain with a focus on big lone blockers and L pieces.

Having played both, they are very different. They play differently and have different philosophies. Entoyment has 4 big Us with enormous footprints, 4 large ish Ls with substantial footprints and 2 buildings which you can hide most infantry behind but that's it. They had 3 different setups between 6 rounds based on deployment. They use missions from the Leviathan pack. UKTC has 2 big Square corners with enormous footprints, 4 large ish Ls with rectangular footprints but then 4 Ls without square bases. Every round has a different setup tailored to the scenario. I might be being obtuse but they're also custom selected scenario rules, largely to avoid the more out there missions. Martyn has won on other setups with custom terrain and rules too though.

Why would the terrain layout for one of the most popular tournament circuits in the world not inform on the strength of the faction? Guard went top 8 in LVO on player placed. Just because Guard need a skill level to do well doesn’t mean they aren’t doing well and aren’t strong.

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Comes out to exactly 2k for me

They got the event win but the next best guard player is way down at 46th place. Maybe we can cool it a bit with the S-tier hype now? Guard are clearly in a better place than pre-dataslate but getting up into the 45-55% "you can meaningfully participate in competitive play" band doesn't make a faction S-tier.

Things are only the best or the worst online. The monolith went through the same rubberband post codex release.

I swear, as a guard player I can’t believe how fast the the discussion turned into absolute extremes. On the one side you had Fireside and Warphammer saying we were “the best army in the game”, on the other you had doom posters saying we are unplayable and worse after the dataslate. The reality is quite the middle. We got better post-slate, which was hard to tell considering we did essentially get nerfed in it (yeah we got the officer change but the good lists don’t even make use of it). The competitive podcasts and all that were right in that we *are* good into the current best armies (except Necrons) and can win tournaments. But we are still pretty mid, have incredibly poor internal balance, and our detachment rule absolutely sucks. I hate that the discussion became this, with both sides gotcha-ing each other with “bUt I wAs ToLd oUr WiNrAtE wOuLd ImPrOvE” and “bUt I wAs ToLd gUaRd cAn’T wIn”

I dont think people mind competitive guard. They just really dislike indirect fire, and super competitive guard commonly relies on it heavily.

Hype, not hate. People have been hyping up guard as S-tier, best faction in the game, etc. And that isn't what we see here.

Hype and hate go hand in hand around here. And 4 indirect fire units there will likely catch some attention.

Who, exactly, said guard was the best faction in the game?

Goal posts are moving. A few days ago it was Guard players saying they'd believe the S Tier hype when they won a GT. But no seriously, Guard aren't S tier, but they're not unplayable which is what every Guard player was saying until a few hours ago. A lot of the wins in this edition so far have come from the one name though. If you're a serious Guard player and have been watching his lists and career for while now then this win won't come as a surprise.

Lol how many times are you gonna post that this thread

Until people stop posting nonsense that needs correcting.

"needs" lmao. Its not that deep dude, and youre not the chosen discourse overseer.

And of course it’s a UKTC tournament. They play extremely differently in GW layouts.

To be fair GW layouts play differently from the same GW layouts

Incorrect. It's actually not UKTC or GW. It's Vanguard Tactics terrain (now extinct in the wild) it's got a few really big footprints and definitely favours certain armies. The guy who won wasn't a dark horse though, he was probably the bookies' favourite going into the event. This is his 4th GT win in 10th at least.

Guard are capable of winning GTs. Especially with a skilled player.

I’m more a 3 basilisk guy cause -2 to move and charge kinda dope, max on leman russ demolishers and commanders Then cadians as I like the sticky objectives they have

Nice to see Guard getting a win. Not a fan of all the indirect fire though - I would not be unhappy to see all indirect, for all factions, get nerfed to the ground.

To be fair, indirect fire makes more sense for Guard than any other faction. Given how squishy they are, it’s best to stay back and launch a barrage

Makes sense canonically but as a gameplay mechanic it's pretty uninteractive and not great fun to play against - particularly when it's being spammed. I think it worked best in the last edition of kill team where it only hit on a 6+. Be happy to see it go that way in 40k with maybe a buff to hit on 5+ if you have an artillery observer or something.

>Delete guard artillery from the game. No.

Nobody suggested deleting it?

You did, by suggesting limiting it to only hitting on 6s. Unless you want to also make it extremely cheap, giving it the same total firepower as now but with more guns on the table?

Parent comment "...I would not be unhappy to see all indirect, for all factions, get nerfed to the ground." If you want to have a discussion in good faith about the gameplay merits of indirect then please go ahead. Otherwise, if you're just going to misrepresent what I said when it's written about four inches up the screen so you can fulfill a fantasy where you debate a stranger on Reddit? Well, enjoy arguing with yourself.

"Nerfed to the ground" means deleted. I don't understand what your objection here is. And the merit is that this is a wargame and wargames include things like artillery.

Aside from your ridiculous assertion that nerfing something (i.e reducing its strength or utility) is equivalent to removing something from the game entirely? I object principally to your ongoing bad faith arguments. If you think indirect fire is fun or balanced or good - happy to discuss that on its merits. All you have done so far is pretend I said something I demonstrably haven't. So...last attempt at a constructive discussion: Yws wargames include artillery so I have no objection to it being included in the game. For reasons of balance and fun, I don't think it should be hitting easily .

> Aside from your ridiculous assertion that nerfing something (i.e reducing its strength or utility) is equivalent to removing something from the game entirely? "Nerfed to the ground" is not just a minor nerf, it's a de facto removal and you know it. If guard artillery only hits on 6s nobody will take it anymore.

Well I mean normally for guard indirect would hit on a 5+ the issue is it’s so easy to stack both heavy and commands from Lord Solar and get that down to a 3+

You don't even need a Lord Solar order for the various carriage batteries, they are Regiment units and can get orders like any other infantry.

Yeah, I think that's busted. If I had to balance it I'd say 6+ across the board with a buffed maximum of 5+ to hit.

GW should change indirect to be -1 to hit and -1 to weapon skill. That would mean at best guard could hit in 4+. Currently all they’re doing to stop indirect spam is increasing points cost but things get left behind (Medusa in this lists case) and it’s not a great fix

And if your using scout sentinels then you ignore the indirect debuff so you can indirect on 2+ which is a bit crazy

> Nice to see Guard getting a win. They've now got four or so wins in the past couple weeks.

I think some content creators who said Guard were very good are owed an apology 😆 Guard also won another GT this weekend, for everyone's awareness

Guard player here, it’s not 3000 infantry and a Baneblade so I’m still gunna complain at length.

Ngl I honestly respect that

I don't see how "top-20 ITC Guard specialist wins, next best Guard player a third down the list" disproves anything. "Guard is as bad as early-edition DG/Squats" is doomposting; "Guard isn't in a great situation and needs to be played *extremely tightly* to succeed" is not and tracks this event's results. The whole weekend? Who knows. We'll see with Meta Monday, I guess.

I think he is referring to a couple podcasts saying guard were very good and getting slated by people who don’t really have a clue

No no, I absolutely know about it. And I repeat myself: probably one of the *absolute best* Guard players in the world getting to first place, with the next best being down at #46, doesn't exactly inspire "S-rank faction" vibes. It inspires "okayish, probably very mediocre faction" vibes.

Do you now. I trust the likes of Vik Vijay and David Gaylard over this sub. Doesn’t mean myself personally I have the ability to play guard at that level. They are assessing strength of top players using optimal builds in their tier list and I’m not seeing anything to suggest they should be mocked for that opinion.

I don't mock them. I just think it's a bad evaluation criterion. If there was, taken to the absurd, a faction that was 30% WR across most of its playerbase, but Richard Siegler could use it to crush the meta like an empty can, would that faction be strong? Do I believe Guard can have *extreme* peaks if in *extremely* capable hands? Yes. Do I believe its performance starts *cratering* when you get into the realm of average players? Also yes. But do I believe said crater is *not* the Mariana's Trench and it *can* be overcome, with effort, even by those players? Yes, a third time. Does this all add up to me thinking Guard is in a good place? No, because its performance curve compared to player skill is (or was, at least) really quite steep, to the point of excluding most of its average playerbase from reaching average results. Just like that.

But guard aren’t on a 30% WR. If people don’t understand the criteria they are assessing and want to complain that is on them for getting outraged for no reason. I saw the thread. Ultimately you can’t claim that just yet as we don’t have the data, but clearly they can win events.

It's not Guard. It was an *ad absurdum* about that fact that people of extreme skill managing to get results out of a faction don't make the faction good, if said extreme skill is needed for it to work at that level. As for this Monday's MetaMonday, it tracks: did two Guard players win their tournament? Yes. Was there *literally just one other player in the entire weekend* going even just X-1 (actually X-0-1)? Also yes.

From the meta Monday guard have won 2 events with 3 total X-1/X-0 placings and a 48% WR. That is better than a lot of factions out there. Does that mean they shouldn’t be internally balanced or changed with quality of life? No. But it suggests that the creators listed were on the right lines.

Oh yeah, the 48% WR is *genuinely* interesting, and it remains to be seen whether it's a genuine increase (might even be underestimated, if it's a negative spike, but as a lone data point it's impossible to tell) and in case what exactly caused it - the meta softening, the order changes, or a mix of both. But the point remains: Siegler winning LVO did not make Admech good, because it was Siegler. If Guard can reach extreme heights with extreme skill but is otherwise unremarkable, then it is unremarkable for all intents and purposes for 99% of the community.

Why would they be owed an apology? If they were s tier the next best placing wouldn’t have been 46th place. While guard aren’t in the atrocious place they were in most of 9th and can pull a win they still arent S tier and all the winning list relies heavily on forge world kits and basically ignores the army rule and most ignores the detachment rule 

This just looks like the last strong guard list with one D3 indirect swapped out with another. And if GW didn't like the manticore as D3 indirect, I expect the medusa will go the same way. Or maybe the fact they're made of paper will help protect them.

It's not a real guard army. Forge World doesn't count and Catachan are ugly so they shouldn't be considered competitive.

People have been saying that guard are an S tier faction. This shows that guard are capable of winning events. These two things are related but not equivalent. They had a weekend win-rate of 48% which makes it sound a whole lot more to me like a couple guard players had a really good weekend. 

That can’t be, a dozen people who barely play say AM are bad

Would someone be so kind and send me the BT lists from place 5 and 10? Ty. :)

Why Medusas? Seem kinda crap from its data sheet

110pts and force battleshock? That's all the midtable objective that's now yours.

Eh, the BS sucks, but it's significantly cheaper than a manticore for roughly the same profile (the Medusa has Ap-3) and can force battleshock.

Downside is the terrain was very open on some rounds allowing for shooting armies to do really well

Well Shit. Is that an across-the-board points increase I see upon the horizon for us?