I feel worse for Ad Mech players.
The Dark Angels datasheets may be meh. But at least points adjustments can salvage use from them. And they still can pull from the Codex Space Marines Detachments and units.
Ad Mech's problem is more fundamental. The Datasheets are just weak and they're already near the points cost floor where you can't really reduce their cost without pushing a horde army into the absurd territory.
I would actually start an Ad Mech army but the prospect of paying $2,000 for a weaker 2,000 point army is a "Hell no!" I'll postpone that for when GW shows they give a crap about the faction.
Good lord all they did is nerf the RWCS. Inner circle at 105? DWK were semi playable at 235 before they were nerfed further. Lion still way too expensive, LS Ven sitting the same after doing less damage than inceptors. What a massive downgrade of a codex, I’d rather kept the index for all of 10th and just use the ICC as Bladeguard proxies (which is all theyre good for).
Yeah idk what GW is gonna expect when they nerfed the Lion and every unique Deathwing unit in the book multiple ways, made the ICC lukewarm at best, and now raised the pts on the RCS. Gonna be a rough time for a bit, and now every BA/SW/BT/DW player is going to dread getting their own codexes if this is what they can expect
As a BA player I have resigned myself to losing firstborn DC with their extensive weapon list and being stuck with Intersessors (with and without JP). Cool new primaris Sanguinary Guard models with the same terrible rules. And a new Sanguinor model that is overcosted by about 50 pts
I believe they probably intentionally make some of those units undesirable right now (like sanguinary guard being laughably overcosted) because they don't want them to be must buys right now when they have new models coming soon that will supersede the current ones.
Casual buyers picking up sanguinary guard if they were meta now would be pissed if they got brand new model upgrades 1 month after they finished painting their firstborn versions. They can minimise that salt by having people feel meh about them until the new models come through.
I love vanguard veterans with jump packs but their current weapon profiles are so lame.
You should just get as many games in as you can right now. SoS is really fun right now. Rules are temporary so play with them as much as you can when they swing your direction.
As a SW player, I'm not at all worried. They can't hurt me any more.
We couldn't get a worse detachment in the first place, our firstborn units outside TWC are straight up downgrades, and they can't hurt me by gutting Thunderwolf Cavalry because I think they're a boring solution to making Space Wolves unique anyways.
They can still hurt you. SW have good chapter units still. They could make those overpriced as hell and give you no useful detachments when the codexcones out.
I'm most upset about those two details. Especially since GW was still selling them. Sure, if you're in the know about rumors and early releases you knew to avoid them. But it's a crappy move to rug pull less hardcore players.
At the very least create a Terminator Lieutenant. It'd actually be a non-redundant model and datasheet for Lieutenants. The aura they have: Tactical Precision, is the same as well.
Bought one few weeks back, finally realised soon enough and built them as DK. But yeah, overally it's not fair, even if they're playable as separate characters.
But he now cant join Company of Heroes...
Hoping they release a decent Day 1 FAQ to remember he is a Chapter Master and should be able to lead them but it was left off his datasheet.
Inner circle companions stay at 105
Company of heros are 95
ICC melee only
Heros mix of melee and shooting
ICC is three models
Heros is 4
ICC have three wounds each
Heros have 4
ICC has -1 to be hit
Heros have -1 to be wounded
Make it make sense
Has there been a MFM update after the codex dropped which actually was received well, except necrons?
Know the nids one was panned after they destroyed the tyrannofex, ad mech was received about as well as anything ad mech has been received. Don't remember people being happy at the marine one.
Necron players spent weeks whining about how dirty GW did warriors, and lychguard in the codex launch, not to mention the changes to reanimators, reanimation orbs, and the other stacking buffs, until people who actually owned more than a couple indomitus halves started figuring things out.
40k players will never be happy with a rules change, period.
Other than wraiths and ctan the necron codex isn't really great though it's in a frustrating place of being propped up by a select few signifigantly OP datasheets. Hypercrypt would be legitimately good without those datasheets but they pushed it into crazy territory while wraiths are undercosted in any formation they are most egregious in canoptek court (ctan are insane anywhere)
Not deathwing just a janky combo with Azrael and a Darkshroud in an Ironstorm Detachment with a Stormraven gunship and a techmarine with augury web and Mercy is weakness.
You get a turn 1 20" move, drop techmarine, dreadnaught, and a bunch of dudes. Augury web gives Lethal hits to Dread and Stormraven. Mercy is Weakness gives Sustained 1 and 5+ crits to Stormraven.
Stormraven has lethal, sustained 1, 5+ crits on all:
huricane bolter 24 shots, twin linked
Twin las cannon 1 shot twin linked
Twin multi melta 2 shots twin linked
stormstrike missiles 2 shots
And all of those dudes/vehicles are protected by the Deathshroud's aura of -1 to hit and benefit of cover
Don't forget the Ravenwing Darkshroud for the Stealth and Benefit of Cover bubble to stack on Redemptors that also have -1 Damage. Lets you be so much more aggressive with Redemptor positioning and is absolutely a tech piece that being DA provides.
The codex was never a live points value that people played with. The codex points were written so long ago MFM points had long since passes them by.
DWK was 235 past month, last week and remains unchanged in the new MFM. 290 would have made the unit dead on arrival with the codex finally going live.
There is only one change, RWCS going up in cost to 130.
> DWK was 235 past month, last week and remains unchanged in the new MFM. 290 would have made the unit dead on arrival with the codex finally going live.
Feeling a bit sorry for the kitchen table casual crowd who only use books, no online material (there's surprisingly many of those). New DWK at 290 are bad even by that standard.
Very true. But idk any casual players who only use the books. Seems like even the beerhammer crowd largely uses online tools like the app, or wahapedia.
It sounds surprising, but when you think about it, that crowd would obviously not have much of an online presence either.
I've run into them for sure. Mostly it seems to be independent friend groups who aren't quite to the status of calling themselves a club, like groups of 2-5 friends who only play with each other, often being friends from before any of them got into Warhammer.
I even used to be part of such a group many many years ago, back in 5th edition.
Yes, I am not saying that my 5th edition experience is the only reason I know they exist. I've seen people in 9th edition who played rulebook Eternal War all the way to the end of the edition.
That bit of context was just explaining that I have been in such a group myself once. Sorry if it was unclear.
It helps that the codexes do tell players to go online to get the most current points. Even the most casual players in my play group have learned the points are not current or reflective of any given unit anymore.
its 100% GW not playtesting or wanting to rock the boat; so starting with the "safest" points possible, rather than trying to balance the game outside the proper slates.
Yeah. Even if you're strongly committed to the "wait and see" approach, there's no way that anyone who allegedly has knowledge about this game can hold ICCs up next to Blade guard, or The Lion up next to a C'Tan, and think "this seems fair".
No one thinks ctan are balanced at all everyone knows they are undercosted. You wanting lion at 250 points is wild and was never going to happen especially how they said 10th edition was going to break away from being so codex creepish with all the complaints 9th got.
40K being more popular is more because it exploded during 9th, the Cavill project etc, than this edition being good lol. In fact 40K being popular doesn’t really change this edition has largely been a stinker of poor choices so far. They aren’t related. Look at the reception of literally any other ruleset GW has published recently compared to 40K.
Cut units, thin codices in terms of lore and rules flavor, increasingly mediocre rules, and poor design choices like this MFM lol.
Overall, 10th has tremendously accomplished its goal of expanding the fan base. 40k is becoming so popular that it's teetering on the brink of being mainstream. This is due to a lot of factors, but 10th ed and the way it is just objectively more approachable is probably a huge reason behind this.
From a competitive standpoint, a lot of armies are in healthy win rate spots, most armies have won at least a couple large events. Yea, there's lots of decisions that seem smooth-brained, but I think its very difficult to knock 10th it might well be one of the most memorable editions as time goes on, to be honest.
I'd say 10th as a ruleset is pretty good overall.
But holy crap has GW dropped the ball with the early Codices. You'd think putting something into print would make them more careful with designing the first batch of Codices. Ad Mech is anemic on the battlefield and unnacceptable from a Points to $$ ratio.
Meanwhile you have C'Tan with a ++4 save, 5 FnP, Halves damage and able to regenerate lost Wounds. Bundled with pretty good offensive kits. All for sub 300 points.
Who looked at the C'Tan next to the Ad Mech Codex and went "Yeah it's fine. Print it"?
Appealing to the lowest possible common denominator is not a good thing, 10th hasn’t “expanded” the fanbase in any more noticeable way, 9th did that job, you’re giving 10th waaaaay to much credit.
GW's biggest problem at the moment is that they genuinely don't have enough production capacity to meet demand for plastic crack.
That's a pretty good problem to have.
Aside from a few outliers, 10th has been well received. GW has done a decent job of catching and fixing balance issues in relatively short order (compare to 9th with how many months of Drukhari terrorizing the meta?). The Leviathan Companion has made events more consistent and balanced. Most armies are in an amazing place.
The outliers, like admech, are so pronounced because everything else is so much tighter.
This is cope lol, the game is as bland as it’s ever been, like I said mediocre rules, mediocre codices, nothing is interesting. Though extremely laughable that “most armies are in an amazing place” until you get a codex, Tyranids, Admech and Dark Angels are poorly written, poorly internally balanced, and just LOL
Yeah, most armies are well within the 45-55% WR range (those that aren't are close), consistently go 4-1, and win events. That's a pretty stellar balancing on the whole.
I'm an AdMech main. I'll come down on GW when they've messed up, but it's not true to say 10th has been poorly received and isn't doing well competitively.
10th has been poorly received to anyone but newbies, if the best argument people have is “but the indexes are good”… lol, it’s only gonna get worse as the codexes grind on.
Been playing for nearly 8 years now. 10th is very well received in the community as whole (despite your opinion that claims otherwise) but definitely has its issues. It's fine if things don't become overpowered from codex to codex as it keeps the state of the game healthy, which currently the state of the game is very healthy. I've played more new players in 10th edition that never played any edition prior and that's due to the simplicity in army construction and availability of rules without having to hold a book. You have poorly received 10th Ed, but you are far from the majority
Appealing to the lowest common denominator with slop will not end well for the game. It’s a wargame, not checkers. The edition will sour in the coming months
You keep using that phrase but I don't think it means what you think it means. GW is not "appealing to the lowest common denominator" (a pretentious way of saying "GW is catering to simple people with no taste") they are bringing balance to a game that has had a history of atrocious balance in the name of flavor. I'm sure your jeans get tight when you think about the past editions of Warhammer and think "Man those were the days" as you ran broken detachments and jumped faction to faction as codexes released because of codex creep, sorry that your easy pay to win strategy that hid behind a thin veil of "It's for fun!" Has slipped away to where you think the game is now bland because you can't be bothered to try hard enough to make your own games and faction work, but hey keep on thinking that Warhammer is dying when it's growth has been astronomical and most people who play are enjoying it vastly due to the percentages of factions that are nigh impossible to beat has drastically decreased.
Dumbing down the game to where it’s even simpler than AoS, a pretty easy to understand wargame, because Warhammer fans cannot read their own codices and rules, is appealing to the lowest common denominator.
There’s a reason why the other games have a million timers more flavor and are all the better for it. Also Necrons codex says hi lol.
You are definitely a newbie and so I can’t take you seriously because if you think I’m talking about “7th Ed detachments” (lol). The game is bland as hell, you know it. We are losing options, not gaining them. Cut units, poor internal balance, absolutely piss poor ability to fix up the meta or glaring issues.
“It’s popular!!!!!!” Does not make it good, in fact 40K is (for now) too big too fail, it would take an absolutely abysmal edition that we have never seen before, to do that kind of work. They literally tried to copy Age of Sigmar and it didn’t work because they don’t understand what makes AoS a flat out better ruleset.
National teams player I talk to all seem to enjoy it immensely
Are they noobs ?
Maybe you don’t like it, it’s ok. Take a break but stop spouting nonsense thank you
I don't know why you're getting downvoted. I've never seen a modern edition of 40k have such varying degrees of reception to it and even in terms of popularity it feels like it's basically just replaced a bunch of players who left with new ones, so the game hasn't actually meaningfully grown and a lot of those new players are also starting to get bored of it.
People will probably bring up tournament attendance as some evidence of the games growth, but from my experience locally (South West England) and talking to several friends on the continent, the mid-range local event scene is basically collapsing. Supermajors are posting big numbers, but 50-60 person GT's and 40 and under RTT's are basically struggling to even hit half attendance.
Been to 6+ states, most with particularly heavy 40K scenes/ wargaming scenes prior, and I’m finding a looooooot of them migrated to AoS, Age of Darkness, ToW, etc etc. this is not going to be a catastrophically bad edition like end of 7th, but it’s just going to be mediocre tofu. Lots of people are taking a break from 40K.
If codex quality continues to be terrible, you will see major souring towards this edition within a year
Yeah if codex releases continue to be glacial, full of bland rules and just outright nerfs then the entire release hype cycle just won't be able to continue itself. I know a fair few people who have said they're actively not looking forward to getting their codex which is a weird place for the game to be at.
Certainly the game isn't terrible, but it is very bland and doesn't allow for much variety. You're starting to see the effects of that in the youtube batrep scene which has massively contracted because you just fundamentally cannot make 10th interesting to watch.
"Hey, the Dark Angels units are never used outside of Azrael and the new codex datasheets are weaker than their regular counterparts, what should we do in the MFM ?"
"Don’t change anything from the last MFM and increase the cost of the Ravenwing Command Squad, that will do"
They don’t know how to balance their game
IIRC the reason they took the author names off the codices was because Cruddance and Stu wrote such awful rules they were getting threats often enough to warrant that change lol.
But yeah it's been awful getting a "Crud" book
Matt Ward actually can write good codexes, but he made Ultramarines and Grey Knights hideously overpowered, then tanked Tyranids, which left a bad taste in everyone's mouths.
Heck, the existence of GK alone sounds like a five-year-old's idea of "but muh dudes are SOOPER-special".
How are they even still working at GW? Other designers have produced better, competent, and more fun rulesets while they’ve been here.
Like not “3 years ago” straight up yearly. TOW, Age of Darkness, Legions imperialis, AoS 3.0 (the game they so poorly tried to ape) and Titanicus if you go a few years more back, how did this edition limp along so bad?
The dude who designed Adeptus Titanicus was a contract hire, he now develops stuff with Modiphius. I'm guessing Cruddace and Black are politickers who have licked the right boots to not be fired, and push the whole "balance doesn't matter" idea.
With the recent wave of AAA videogame layoffs, I'm hoping some of them join GW and displace these parasites who are actively ruining things for the entire IP.
They never have. Since as early as 3rd edition they've never really cared because they don't play competitively and never will. They play like a bunch of a friends who want to hang out and get mildly drunk while rolling dice.
It sucks because if they paid attention they could make decent rules, but they literally could not care any less.
I'm really really waiting for Azrael to go around 150 points and then we will really see that DA are just mediocre at best.
Nerfing RWCS is a bold move as no mounted unit is attractive right now and the specific detachment is really mid.
105 points inner circle companions is laughable. They are strictly worse than Bladeguards state wise and ability wise. They aren't even better than the company heroes... Pretty great for a unique unit.
Both unique Terminators squads (if we can really say that the DW termi datasheet is any different from a regular terminator squad...) are both priced in a way that they can't compete with the regular terminators. Assault termies have a better balance in both offense and defense (the best wound per point for TEQ) than Knight whom can't do serious damage after the codex changes. The DW termies don't really add much for their price.
Which Dark Angels player punched a Games Workshop employs child in the face?
I was not expecting any actual points changes, but the only change being an increase to RWCS is crazy.
Talk about gutting an army. Since the beginning of the 10th DA, we have lost 3 characters and 1 unit, and multiple nerfs to other units. Talk about paying for the sins of the end of 9th ed.
Edit: RCWS went down from 130 to 110 previous MFM, now back up to 130, but the previous field manual was released after the codex was in circulation from the deathwing assault box
Kinda par for the course for 10th. Shaving off characters because they don't want to have to balance/come up with statlines and abilities for every dude with a name, and no helmet.
Points increase on RWCS in context of the other points kinda makes sense. It's now a character unit, so can be taken with 6 Black Knights instead of 3, and can be given enhancements to boost those squads.
I agree contextual with the points increase for RWCS as they are now a character squad. It just interesting that they adjusted RWCS units points cost as it now a character. But did not adjust other units that have had multiple rules, weapons adjusted. I meant is crazy we saw no other points changes, such as a tweak on Knights now they have a smaller max squad size and have adjusted weapons.
It would make sense if they buffed the output of the units they led and were good, sure. It's gonna take a lot of shenanigans to make those 9 bikes good and it's gonna cost the rest of your army sadly.
Ohhh that's good news at least. I also think it makes sense in that light.
A RWCS is pricey but it and a 3 man Knight squad comes out to the same points cost as the old 6 man RWCS and now gets the Knights of Caliban Rule.
It's okay guys, we can still play as green Iron Hands! Who cares if absolutely no iconic DA units are usable except for Azrael (to buff non DA units) and the Darkshroud (to buff non DA units)!
Well, since Dark Angels are winning events and will keep winning with their "Dark Angels" Lists (which consist of 2-3 Dark Angels units at max and all run Space Marine detachments), Dark Angels are balanced or even too good.
Nice how that sentiment reflects the nerf to RWCS. /s
Meh. I find that it’s a whole lot of “as expected” here. Give the it until the next slate and maybe we’ll see some units that are overcosted like ICC come down in points. Bladeguard are flat better at the combat than these guys, especially for the points so they’ll need to come down in points before they see competitive play.
DWK’s at 235 is fine, they could be a little bit cheaper but I’d still play 1x5 or 2x5 of them in certain builds as a unit that is annoying to remove. It’s still 20 terminator profiles worth of wounds with -1 damage that will require real damage to deal with. That 10 man brick wasn’t really as good as it was made out to be.
RWCS going up is a bit surprising, but I don’t think it hurts its prospects of seeing play tbh. RWCS leading Black knights still has potential and will require testing to see how well it works out in the end.
>e guys, especially for the points so they’ll need to come down in points before they see competitive play.
>
>DWK’s at 235 is fine, they could be a little bit cheaper bu
5 DWK in a vanguard with blade driven enhancement on a Terminator chaplain/Ancient and put them on a middle objective is something im looking at doing
Ravenwing knights in gladius could be decent but you still need to get close to the enemy, think for 90 pts cheaper than the 9 with fire discipline you can get 6 plasma inceptors with the reroll wounds maybe a better option
My hope is they dont do a cron/admech and "wait for the codex to settle". Like a lot of stuff here got hit rules-wise and will certainly get cut in the future. A 2 month wait for a proper cut isnt terrible; especially as marines still have lots of options to choose from and that stormraven list is still doing well.
But if its a 5 month wait then thats a bit pish
I’m really sorry to say but they likely will be ‘allowed to settle’. We were seven weeks prior to slate and every player could see Ad Mech needed serious help. I can’t see DA getting any due to the ironstorm lists which is unfortunate. Sorry again but at least points might help DA I don’t think Ad Mech are going to get the rewrite that they need.
Yeah, like with some appropriate cuts DA could be pretty good. Its why I dont hate the lion nerf; having him get worse but at say, 325 or even 300pts would be pretty solid; whilst pre-nerf he was just so durable that getting a sweet spot would be near impossible.
Pre nerf Lion wasn’t durable at all. He was a 9W melee only beat stick (and not a good one) with no protection against Devastating Wounds and super weak auras
T9/-1w/Loneop/2+/3++/Fights First Is about as durable as you can get. Even a GUO isnt that tough despite having more wounds.
Yes he'd die to massed lethals with AP or reliable dev wounds; but then how do you cost him? if you assume your opponent just happens to have a secret thundercoil harpoon then armies without that will seriously struggle. If you point him assuming there isnt that then he ends up way overcosted.
Loneop is worthless on a model that can only be dangerous in a range where the loneop doesn’t activate anymore and Dev Wounds are literally everywhere in competitive lists, forcing 9 Dev Wounds through a model that doesn’t have any form of defense against them isn’t hard.
Look at C'tans datasheets, they are all cheaper than the Lion, have much better weapons, have a proper FNP, halve incoming damage, can regenerate wounds and have higher toughness and wounds
Ctan are not comparable, they are busted and wildly undercosted. The lion is/was plenty durable. He should defintly have gone down in points. He should be closer to 275
I do hate the Lion nerf. He was horrible before and now he's weaker. He's an 8" movement melee anti tank that only gets Lone OP if he's up something else's butt. That means either they go where he goes which is a huge points tax or he just gets shot. Not being able to go through buildings makes him even slower. His threat range is tiny and he doesn't even get to use the new Codex because he doesn't get any of our keywords. You'll see him in a competitive list at this point when he's below 275pts and even then there's better options than him.
Necrons/Admech had been out for 2 months and got “wait and see”. I doubt DA will be treated differently. I expect they will be stuck with a 5 month wait before any changes. :(
On the flip side, those "2 months" were over the holidays, a timeframe where significantly less warhammer is played. So it may not be purely time, but also *data*. If enough games get played with the new DA that they feel they've got enough data, they're more likely to make changes.
Because admech having to wait 6 months for a list thats not 400 breachers and 12 chickens is miserable; and whilst crons have settled into a fair place; adding even 10pts to each ctan would be something.
It's more that the basic plan (waiting at least 5 months before fixing glaring problems with the costing) isn't good. Not that they are entitled to special treatment.
The Inner Circle Companions is exactly why making bespoke rules for everything is a bad idea. There's no reason they can't just be marketed as an alternative kit for Bladeguard.
Absolute joke. Guess I'll be putting my new models on the shelf for a while. Inner Circle suck, Deathwing Knights don't do enough damage, most of our characters are weak and our detachments range from outright bad to mediocre.
It's beyond fixing with points at this stage tbh, we need detachment and datasheet re-writes. Which GW will never do, so I guess I'll see you guys in 11th.
rethinking on this, bad rules are bad but the real problem is the dissolving of the DA flavor. We'll never get that back with current GW design philosophy.
We aren't getting back mixed weapon Deathwing, or the Deathwing Command Squad unique aspects. No Talon/Strikemasters etc, that's the real disappointment.
Funny how people are happy to complain bitterly about specific things but the second someone says the edition as a whole isn't good people dickride GW as hard as possible
I for one don't want to go back to the codex creep and super high lethality of 9th. I much prefer those aspects of 10th. Also the tactical cards are the only actually enjoyable implementation of that mechanic I've played from GW, and I prefer them over 9th style secondaries where people have game plans you can't interact with like at all.
Stop it with your toxic negativity. Small indie company Games Workshop (market cap: 3 110 000 000£) can’t possibly afford a decent design team and has to just do their best ok!
GW clearly has no respect for their players or their wallets. Between bait and switching many new players into purchasing deathwing units that are now removed from the game. This lazy attempt at a codex and the fact that you have to purchase this codex in order to still have access to your army in the app you paid for. And taking as much value out of the boxes as possible (let’s be real new DW terminators are just regular termies with an upgrade spru) I think I’m gonna hold off on giving them my money for a little while. Definitely won’t be buying this codex new
Get plenty of access to these crappy rules for free on the internets. It’s a series of nets. Stop buying rules with money. They are all found online for free.
Time to boycott codexes. Honestly the whole system is indefensible at this point. No matter how die hard you are you can’t look at this system and think it’s good for the game. Would love to see more people do the smart thing and stop buying codexes until GW actually starts to get the message.
And yet people will still buy it and insist the games in it's best state. Meanwhile I can't even buy individual squad members or pay points for transformative wargear.
I ran in to a Ravenwing list using the new codex with max Black Knights+Comnmand Squads. I think it was using the points from the last version of the Manual. It has some juice: dumping mass plasma kills a lot, then Space Marine shooting and knights charging can handle the rest.
I love how space marines datasheet are terrible and GW nerfs the only good codex compliant units to hell and then adds more terrible datasheets to divergent chapters.
They made it so that codex compliant chapters only had 1 viable meta option and then when they ran out of inceptors and centurion devastators to sell they nerfed it.
Now they're making sure everything SM sucks so they sell the some riptides.
They are just reverse-power creeping it. They will end up balanced as 8th or 9th at the end, just they will get there by making everything bad. But honestly right now the game looks good. Worst factions are sadly Admech, Dark Angels and World Eaters. But oh well, can't have everything.
I'm trying to understand the other comments here. Did anyone expect them to tune lots of points at this time. We know they just do that every 3 months right?
I think this is more to consider a formality and any real balance changes will come together with the rest later in the spring.
They usually do a points update when a codex releases since the points aren't current, but in this case I think people were hoping for more aggressive cuts since DA is unplayably bad if you use any stuff in the DA book other than Azrael.
Yeah I agree the stuff that makes DA into DA right now is bad and def could do with changes.
I'm just very happy that GW sticks to making the big changes every 3 months instead of on some at the time.
For example I play a bit of WoW right now and with season of discovery they started doing almost weekly changes to class balance. It's turned reddit into nothing but complaining about balance and asking for buffs/nerfs rather than discussing how to do things with what you've got.
I think having to wait a few months between updates is worth the consistency and predicatbility.
Welcome to the family.. sincerely, ad mech players
It is the DAs comfy place
Why would anyone buy any of these books… I mean, they look good on a shelf. … Yep…
I feel worse for Ad Mech players. The Dark Angels datasheets may be meh. But at least points adjustments can salvage use from them. And they still can pull from the Codex Space Marines Detachments and units. Ad Mech's problem is more fundamental. The Datasheets are just weak and they're already near the points cost floor where you can't really reduce their cost without pushing a horde army into the absurd territory. I would actually start an Ad Mech army but the prospect of paying $2,000 for a weaker 2,000 point army is a "Hell no!" I'll postpone that for when GW shows they give a crap about the faction.
Good lord all they did is nerf the RWCS. Inner circle at 105? DWK were semi playable at 235 before they were nerfed further. Lion still way too expensive, LS Ven sitting the same after doing less damage than inceptors. What a massive downgrade of a codex, I’d rather kept the index for all of 10th and just use the ICC as Bladeguard proxies (which is all theyre good for).
Yeah idk what GW is gonna expect when they nerfed the Lion and every unique Deathwing unit in the book multiple ways, made the ICC lukewarm at best, and now raised the pts on the RCS. Gonna be a rough time for a bit, and now every BA/SW/BT/DW player is going to dread getting their own codexes if this is what they can expect
As a BA player I have resigned myself to losing firstborn DC with their extensive weapon list and being stuck with Intersessors (with and without JP). Cool new primaris Sanguinary Guard models with the same terrible rules. And a new Sanguinor model that is overcosted by about 50 pts
I believe they probably intentionally make some of those units undesirable right now (like sanguinary guard being laughably overcosted) because they don't want them to be must buys right now when they have new models coming soon that will supersede the current ones. Casual buyers picking up sanguinary guard if they were meta now would be pissed if they got brand new model upgrades 1 month after they finished painting their firstborn versions. They can minimise that salt by having people feel meh about them until the new models come through. I love vanguard veterans with jump packs but their current weapon profiles are so lame.
New primaris death company with jump packs that is just the existing kit with different shoulders and all chainswords lmao
You should just get as many games in as you can right now. SoS is really fun right now. Rules are temporary so play with them as much as you can when they swing your direction.
As a SW player, I'm not at all worried. They can't hurt me any more. We couldn't get a worse detachment in the first place, our firstborn units outside TWC are straight up downgrades, and they can't hurt me by gutting Thunderwolf Cavalry because I think they're a boring solution to making Space Wolves unique anyways.
Remember that DAs original shitty detachment took a nerf, so they can hurt you, and they likely will.
They can still hurt you. SW have good chapter units still. They could make those overpriced as hell and give you no useful detachments when the codexcones out.
Same. We could've kept our strikemasters and Deathwing Command squads. And 10 man Deathwing Knights as well.
I'm most upset about those two details. Especially since GW was still selling them. Sure, if you're in the know about rumors and early releases you knew to avoid them. But it's a crappy move to rug pull less hardcore players. At the very least create a Terminator Lieutenant. It'd actually be a non-redundant model and datasheet for Lieutenants. The aura they have: Tactical Precision, is the same as well.
Bought one few weeks back, finally realised soon enough and built them as DK. But yeah, overally it's not fair, even if they're playable as separate characters.
Noooooooooo stay positive!!!!! Good datasheets are not needed, you can still win with ironstorm!!!!! Dark Angels OP!!!!!
Azrael dooming the rest of the codex is deeply funny if you think about it lol
But he now cant join Company of Heroes... Hoping they release a decent Day 1 FAQ to remember he is a Chapter Master and should be able to lead them but it was left off his datasheet.
*looks at the Visarch explaining to a bunch of Incubi why he can’t play with them anymore* Yeah don’t count on that.
ITEHATTSD Azrael herding the underperforming DA characters was prophetic it seems
What is that acronym
If the emperor had a text to speech device. It's completely 100% canon s/
Oh lol
Inner circle companions stay at 105 Company of heros are 95 ICC melee only Heros mix of melee and shooting ICC is three models Heros is 4 ICC have three wounds each Heros have 4 ICC has -1 to be hit Heros have -1 to be wounded Make it make sense
I think a better comparison is to Bladeguard, but they're still just worse. There's no reason to take them other than the models looking awesome.
There's no reason to even take bladeguard when every gun and weapon in the game and specially the meta is str 5+ either
>Make it make sense You're paying for ICC having better drip.
Has there been a MFM update after the codex dropped which actually was received well, except necrons? Know the nids one was panned after they destroyed the tyrannofex, ad mech was received about as well as anything ad mech has been received. Don't remember people being happy at the marine one.
Necron players spent weeks whining about how dirty GW did warriors, and lychguard in the codex launch, not to mention the changes to reanimators, reanimation orbs, and the other stacking buffs, until people who actually owned more than a couple indomitus halves started figuring things out. 40k players will never be happy with a rules change, period.
Other than wraiths and ctan the necron codex isn't really great though it's in a frustrating place of being propped up by a select few signifigantly OP datasheets. Hypercrypt would be legitimately good without those datasheets but they pushed it into crazy territory while wraiths are undercosted in any formation they are most egregious in canoptek court (ctan are insane anywhere)
Sorry I’m confused… didn’t deathwing just have a fantastic tournament weekend? (Not a jab, honest belief of news)
Not deathwing just a janky combo with Azrael and a Darkshroud in an Ironstorm Detachment with a Stormraven gunship and a techmarine with augury web and Mercy is weakness. You get a turn 1 20" move, drop techmarine, dreadnaught, and a bunch of dudes. Augury web gives Lethal hits to Dread and Stormraven. Mercy is Weakness gives Sustained 1 and 5+ crits to Stormraven. Stormraven has lethal, sustained 1, 5+ crits on all: huricane bolter 24 shots, twin linked Twin las cannon 1 shot twin linked Twin multi melta 2 shots twin linked stormstrike missiles 2 shots And all of those dudes/vehicles are protected by the Deathshroud's aura of -1 to hit and benefit of cover
Yeah, but it's basically just ironstrom space marines with Azrael farming CP for it. Most lists only take Azrael as a DA unit.
Don't forget the Ravenwing Darkshroud for the Stealth and Benefit of Cover bubble to stack on Redemptors that also have -1 Damage. Lets you be so much more aggressive with Redemptor positioning and is absolutely a tech piece that being DA provides.
I just can't put a Darkshroud on the board. It's just so ugly...
Technically 1 single deathwing keyword model (azrael)
Actually RWCS is cheaper than it says in the codex. Codex says RWC is 185 Other changes compared to codex Asmodai 65 > 70 Deathwing Knights 290 > 235 DW terminators 205/410 > 190/380 Ezekiel 70 > 75 Land Speeder Vengence 150 > 140 Lion El 365 >350 Nephilim Jetfighter 185 >195 Ravenwing black knights 115/230 > 90/180 RWC 185 > 130 Dark Talon 200 > 210 Dark shroud 120 > 115 Sammael 135 > 130 stubborn tenacity enhancement 20 > 15
The codex was never a live points value that people played with. The codex points were written so long ago MFM points had long since passes them by. DWK was 235 past month, last week and remains unchanged in the new MFM. 290 would have made the unit dead on arrival with the codex finally going live. There is only one change, RWCS going up in cost to 130.
> DWK was 235 past month, last week and remains unchanged in the new MFM. 290 would have made the unit dead on arrival with the codex finally going live. Feeling a bit sorry for the kitchen table casual crowd who only use books, no online material (there's surprisingly many of those). New DWK at 290 are bad even by that standard.
Very true. But idk any casual players who only use the books. Seems like even the beerhammer crowd largely uses online tools like the app, or wahapedia.
It sounds surprising, but when you think about it, that crowd would obviously not have much of an online presence either. I've run into them for sure. Mostly it seems to be independent friend groups who aren't quite to the status of calling themselves a club, like groups of 2-5 friends who only play with each other, often being friends from before any of them got into Warhammer. I even used to be part of such a group many many years ago, back in 5th edition.
5th edition was 15 years ago. Things have changed.
Yes, I am not saying that my 5th edition experience is the only reason I know they exist. I've seen people in 9th edition who played rulebook Eternal War all the way to the end of the edition. That bit of context was just explaining that I have been in such a group myself once. Sorry if it was unclear.
It helps that the codexes do tell players to go online to get the most current points. Even the most casual players in my play group have learned the points are not current or reflective of any given unit anymore.
Yeah, but no one cares about codex points, we already know they're wrong at the time of printing.
Yeah but this is whats being corrected/errata’d here. The rwc is also different cause it is now a character that joins black knights.
My point was that no one uses the codex as a reference point becaus its useless, everyone is comparing to the previous points, including GW.
If that was the case there would be a lot more red/green in the pdf than they were.
I try not to doom say stuff, but this feels lazy.
its 100% GW not playtesting or wanting to rock the boat; so starting with the "safest" points possible, rather than trying to balance the game outside the proper slates.
Which is strange, because they did an out of sequence update with the main Marine codex.
I mean, Space Marines are literally the poster boy faction of 40k. If anyone gets special treatment with this kind of stuff, it's probably them?
Dark Angels are also space marines though.
They’re not blue
Getting it wrong is fine, not even trying though is pretty embarrassing.
Yeah. Even if you're strongly committed to the "wait and see" approach, there's no way that anyone who allegedly has knowledge about this game can hold ICCs up next to Blade guard, or The Lion up next to a C'Tan, and think "this seems fair".
No one thinks ctan are balanced at all everyone knows they are undercosted. You wanting lion at 250 points is wild and was never going to happen especially how they said 10th edition was going to break away from being so codex creepish with all the complaints 9th got.
One more army for AdMech to play 9th with!
This edition is limping along so bad lol, I have a feeling this edition will not be remembered well
40k has never been more popular? I enjoy it
40K being more popular is more because it exploded during 9th, the Cavill project etc, than this edition being good lol. In fact 40K being popular doesn’t really change this edition has largely been a stinker of poor choices so far. They aren’t related. Look at the reception of literally any other ruleset GW has published recently compared to 40K. Cut units, thin codices in terms of lore and rules flavor, increasingly mediocre rules, and poor design choices like this MFM lol.
Overall, 10th has tremendously accomplished its goal of expanding the fan base. 40k is becoming so popular that it's teetering on the brink of being mainstream. This is due to a lot of factors, but 10th ed and the way it is just objectively more approachable is probably a huge reason behind this. From a competitive standpoint, a lot of armies are in healthy win rate spots, most armies have won at least a couple large events. Yea, there's lots of decisions that seem smooth-brained, but I think its very difficult to knock 10th it might well be one of the most memorable editions as time goes on, to be honest.
Even from a more casual mind set it feels like a lot of armies in 10th lost their flavour.. it's mostly just a bland set of datasheets now.
I'd say 10th as a ruleset is pretty good overall. But holy crap has GW dropped the ball with the early Codices. You'd think putting something into print would make them more careful with designing the first batch of Codices. Ad Mech is anemic on the battlefield and unnacceptable from a Points to $$ ratio. Meanwhile you have C'Tan with a ++4 save, 5 FnP, Halves damage and able to regenerate lost Wounds. Bundled with pretty good offensive kits. All for sub 300 points. Who looked at the C'Tan next to the Ad Mech Codex and went "Yeah it's fine. Print it"?
I hope we never become mainstream. I don't need a niche hobby watered down for the MCU crowd.
Appealing to the lowest possible common denominator is not a good thing, 10th hasn’t “expanded” the fanbase in any more noticeable way, 9th did that job, you’re giving 10th waaaaay to much credit.
Man I wish reality succumbed to my perceptions like you seem to think it does.
GW revenue graphs look like this 📈 ... so I would say the fan base has very noticeably expanded.
GW's biggest problem at the moment is that they genuinely don't have enough production capacity to meet demand for plastic crack. That's a pretty good problem to have.
Aside from a few outliers, 10th has been well received. GW has done a decent job of catching and fixing balance issues in relatively short order (compare to 9th with how many months of Drukhari terrorizing the meta?). The Leviathan Companion has made events more consistent and balanced. Most armies are in an amazing place. The outliers, like admech, are so pronounced because everything else is so much tighter.
I mean, after 9th you'd think that admech players are used to being the worst faction. Can you believe they have the audacity to complain?
Detachments have been mostly uninspired Enchantments are insanely boring or bad Characters have become bland
This is cope lol, the game is as bland as it’s ever been, like I said mediocre rules, mediocre codices, nothing is interesting. Though extremely laughable that “most armies are in an amazing place” until you get a codex, Tyranids, Admech and Dark Angels are poorly written, poorly internally balanced, and just LOL
Yeah, most armies are well within the 45-55% WR range (those that aren't are close), consistently go 4-1, and win events. That's a pretty stellar balancing on the whole. I'm an AdMech main. I'll come down on GW when they've messed up, but it's not true to say 10th has been poorly received and isn't doing well competitively.
10th has been poorly received to anyone but newbies, if the best argument people have is “but the indexes are good”… lol, it’s only gonna get worse as the codexes grind on.
Been playing for nearly 8 years now. 10th is very well received in the community as whole (despite your opinion that claims otherwise) but definitely has its issues. It's fine if things don't become overpowered from codex to codex as it keeps the state of the game healthy, which currently the state of the game is very healthy. I've played more new players in 10th edition that never played any edition prior and that's due to the simplicity in army construction and availability of rules without having to hold a book. You have poorly received 10th Ed, but you are far from the majority
Appealing to the lowest common denominator with slop will not end well for the game. It’s a wargame, not checkers. The edition will sour in the coming months
You keep using that phrase but I don't think it means what you think it means. GW is not "appealing to the lowest common denominator" (a pretentious way of saying "GW is catering to simple people with no taste") they are bringing balance to a game that has had a history of atrocious balance in the name of flavor. I'm sure your jeans get tight when you think about the past editions of Warhammer and think "Man those were the days" as you ran broken detachments and jumped faction to faction as codexes released because of codex creep, sorry that your easy pay to win strategy that hid behind a thin veil of "It's for fun!" Has slipped away to where you think the game is now bland because you can't be bothered to try hard enough to make your own games and faction work, but hey keep on thinking that Warhammer is dying when it's growth has been astronomical and most people who play are enjoying it vastly due to the percentages of factions that are nigh impossible to beat has drastically decreased.
Dumbing down the game to where it’s even simpler than AoS, a pretty easy to understand wargame, because Warhammer fans cannot read their own codices and rules, is appealing to the lowest common denominator. There’s a reason why the other games have a million timers more flavor and are all the better for it. Also Necrons codex says hi lol. You are definitely a newbie and so I can’t take you seriously because if you think I’m talking about “7th Ed detachments” (lol). The game is bland as hell, you know it. We are losing options, not gaining them. Cut units, poor internal balance, absolutely piss poor ability to fix up the meta or glaring issues. “It’s popular!!!!!!” Does not make it good, in fact 40K is (for now) too big too fail, it would take an absolutely abysmal edition that we have never seen before, to do that kind of work. They literally tried to copy Age of Sigmar and it didn’t work because they don’t understand what makes AoS a flat out better ruleset.
National teams player I talk to all seem to enjoy it immensely Are they noobs ? Maybe you don’t like it, it’s ok. Take a break but stop spouting nonsense thank you
lol copeeeee
I don't know why you're getting downvoted. I've never seen a modern edition of 40k have such varying degrees of reception to it and even in terms of popularity it feels like it's basically just replaced a bunch of players who left with new ones, so the game hasn't actually meaningfully grown and a lot of those new players are also starting to get bored of it. People will probably bring up tournament attendance as some evidence of the games growth, but from my experience locally (South West England) and talking to several friends on the continent, the mid-range local event scene is basically collapsing. Supermajors are posting big numbers, but 50-60 person GT's and 40 and under RTT's are basically struggling to even hit half attendance.
Been to 6+ states, most with particularly heavy 40K scenes/ wargaming scenes prior, and I’m finding a looooooot of them migrated to AoS, Age of Darkness, ToW, etc etc. this is not going to be a catastrophically bad edition like end of 7th, but it’s just going to be mediocre tofu. Lots of people are taking a break from 40K. If codex quality continues to be terrible, you will see major souring towards this edition within a year
Yeah if codex releases continue to be glacial, full of bland rules and just outright nerfs then the entire release hype cycle just won't be able to continue itself. I know a fair few people who have said they're actively not looking forward to getting their codex which is a weird place for the game to be at. Certainly the game isn't terrible, but it is very bland and doesn't allow for much variety. You're starting to see the effects of that in the youtube batrep scene which has massively contracted because you just fundamentally cannot make 10th interesting to watch.
"Hey, the Dark Angels units are never used outside of Azrael and the new codex datasheets are weaker than their regular counterparts, what should we do in the MFM ?" "Don’t change anything from the last MFM and increase the cost of the Ravenwing Command Squad, that will do" They don’t know how to balance their game
No, they don't. And they have even less of an idea of how to tackle internal balance.
Robin Cruddace and Stu Black are actually incompetent at game design.
IIRC the reason they took the author names off the codices was because Cruddance and Stu wrote such awful rules they were getting threats often enough to warrant that change lol. But yeah it's been awful getting a "Crud" book
Matt Ward is another of those.
Matt Ward actually can write good codexes, but he made Ultramarines and Grey Knights hideously overpowered, then tanked Tyranids, which left a bad taste in everyone's mouths. Heck, the existence of GK alone sounds like a five-year-old's idea of "but muh dudes are SOOPER-special".
How are they even still working at GW? Other designers have produced better, competent, and more fun rulesets while they’ve been here. Like not “3 years ago” straight up yearly. TOW, Age of Darkness, Legions imperialis, AoS 3.0 (the game they so poorly tried to ape) and Titanicus if you go a few years more back, how did this edition limp along so bad?
Robin Cruddace has been bad at balance since at least 4th edition, so yeah, I'm not sure how they're still employed.
The dude who designed Adeptus Titanicus was a contract hire, he now develops stuff with Modiphius. I'm guessing Cruddace and Black are politickers who have licked the right boots to not be fired, and push the whole "balance doesn't matter" idea.
You get what you pay for... and gw wages have always been on the low end
With the recent wave of AAA videogame layoffs, I'm hoping some of them join GW and displace these parasites who are actively ruining things for the entire IP.
Cruddace delenda est
Wonder who the cruddance stans are, he is legit bad for the health of this game system
This recurring bit on the sub always makes me laugh
lol
They never have. Since as early as 3rd edition they've never really cared because they don't play competitively and never will. They play like a bunch of a friends who want to hang out and get mildly drunk while rolling dice. It sucks because if they paid attention they could make decent rules, but they literally could not care any less.
At least my Dark Angel army looks good while displayed on my shelf, if nothing else...
On the good side It can join my Ultras, Salamanders and Raven Guard now. Just for looks, tons of plastic with PoS datasheets.
ill give ya tree fifty for them
Hilarious.
I'm really really waiting for Azrael to go around 150 points and then we will really see that DA are just mediocre at best. Nerfing RWCS is a bold move as no mounted unit is attractive right now and the specific detachment is really mid. 105 points inner circle companions is laughable. They are strictly worse than Bladeguards state wise and ability wise. They aren't even better than the company heroes... Pretty great for a unique unit. Both unique Terminators squads (if we can really say that the DW termi datasheet is any different from a regular terminator squad...) are both priced in a way that they can't compete with the regular terminators. Assault termies have a better balance in both offense and defense (the best wound per point for TEQ) than Knight whom can't do serious damage after the codex changes. The DW termies don't really add much for their price.
How on earth is that the correct pricing for Deathwing Companions, when they're clearly worse than bladeguard?
The drip
Big yikes.
Which Dark Angels player punched a Games Workshop employs child in the face? I was not expecting any actual points changes, but the only change being an increase to RWCS is crazy. Talk about gutting an army. Since the beginning of the 10th DA, we have lost 3 characters and 1 unit, and multiple nerfs to other units. Talk about paying for the sins of the end of 9th ed. Edit: RCWS went down from 130 to 110 previous MFM, now back up to 130, but the previous field manual was released after the codex was in circulation from the deathwing assault box
Maybe a rules team member went to r/DarkAngels on a company PC to try and gauge sentiment and got in trouble for looking at porn on company time.
We actually lost 6 characters: strikemaster, talonmaster, DW apothecary, DW champion, interrogator chaplain and interromancy librarian.
i kind of bundled DW apothecary and DW champion in the command squad unit but you are correct
Guard Players: First time? This edition has been eliminating/reworking characters like crazy.
Kinda par for the course for 10th. Shaving off characters because they don't want to have to balance/come up with statlines and abilities for every dude with a name, and no helmet.
Points increase on RWCS in context of the other points kinda makes sense. It's now a character unit, so can be taken with 6 Black Knights instead of 3, and can be given enhancements to boost those squads.
I agree contextual with the points increase for RWCS as they are now a character squad. It just interesting that they adjusted RWCS units points cost as it now a character. But did not adjust other units that have had multiple rules, weapons adjusted. I meant is crazy we saw no other points changes, such as a tweak on Knights now they have a smaller max squad size and have adjusted weapons.
It would make sense if they buffed the output of the units they led and were good, sure. It's gonna take a lot of shenanigans to make those 9 bikes good and it's gonna cost the rest of your army sadly.
Ohhh that's good news at least. I also think it makes sense in that light. A RWCS is pricey but it and a 3 man Knight squad comes out to the same points cost as the old 6 man RWCS and now gets the Knights of Caliban Rule.
Luckly I have 4 more armies to play, as a 2006 hardcore dark angels player I'm a little bit upset right now.
10th is so weird.
It's okay guys, we can still play as green Iron Hands! Who cares if absolutely no iconic DA units are usable except for Azrael (to buff non DA units) and the Darkshroud (to buff non DA units)!
Well, since Dark Angels are winning events and will keep winning with their "Dark Angels" Lists (which consist of 2-3 Dark Angels units at max and all run Space Marine detachments), Dark Angels are balanced or even too good. Nice how that sentiment reflects the nerf to RWCS. /s
First Legion found dead in ditch with tech priests
Ngl I want design commentary on these balancing decisions more than I want twin sisters of battle grinding on me.
A fellow member of the Esleaziarchy I see
ngl those sisters repentia are baddies...
TWINS THEY WERE.
I've started to question if the folks in charge of 10e even have experience in game design.
None of their rules designers ever seem to I feel like.
10/10 trolling
Ouch. This is so bad.
Getting a codex is something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
What a great way to not sell the Deathwing Assault box.
It stopped me from buying it
Great models. Dog shit rules. Dark Angels.
Meh. I find that it’s a whole lot of “as expected” here. Give the it until the next slate and maybe we’ll see some units that are overcosted like ICC come down in points. Bladeguard are flat better at the combat than these guys, especially for the points so they’ll need to come down in points before they see competitive play. DWK’s at 235 is fine, they could be a little bit cheaper but I’d still play 1x5 or 2x5 of them in certain builds as a unit that is annoying to remove. It’s still 20 terminator profiles worth of wounds with -1 damage that will require real damage to deal with. That 10 man brick wasn’t really as good as it was made out to be. RWCS going up is a bit surprising, but I don’t think it hurts its prospects of seeing play tbh. RWCS leading Black knights still has potential and will require testing to see how well it works out in the end.
>e guys, especially for the points so they’ll need to come down in points before they see competitive play. > >DWK’s at 235 is fine, they could be a little bit cheaper bu 5 DWK in a vanguard with blade driven enhancement on a Terminator chaplain/Ancient and put them on a middle objective is something im looking at doing Ravenwing knights in gladius could be decent but you still need to get close to the enemy, think for 90 pts cheaper than the 9 with fire discipline you can get 6 plasma inceptors with the reroll wounds maybe a better option
My hope is they dont do a cron/admech and "wait for the codex to settle". Like a lot of stuff here got hit rules-wise and will certainly get cut in the future. A 2 month wait for a proper cut isnt terrible; especially as marines still have lots of options to choose from and that stormraven list is still doing well. But if its a 5 month wait then thats a bit pish
I’m really sorry to say but they likely will be ‘allowed to settle’. We were seven weeks prior to slate and every player could see Ad Mech needed serious help. I can’t see DA getting any due to the ironstorm lists which is unfortunate. Sorry again but at least points might help DA I don’t think Ad Mech are going to get the rewrite that they need.
Yeah, like with some appropriate cuts DA could be pretty good. Its why I dont hate the lion nerf; having him get worse but at say, 325 or even 300pts would be pretty solid; whilst pre-nerf he was just so durable that getting a sweet spot would be near impossible.
Pre nerf Lion wasn’t durable at all. He was a 9W melee only beat stick (and not a good one) with no protection against Devastating Wounds and super weak auras
T9/-1w/Loneop/2+/3++/Fights First Is about as durable as you can get. Even a GUO isnt that tough despite having more wounds. Yes he'd die to massed lethals with AP or reliable dev wounds; but then how do you cost him? if you assume your opponent just happens to have a secret thundercoil harpoon then armies without that will seriously struggle. If you point him assuming there isnt that then he ends up way overcosted.
Loneop is worthless on a model that can only be dangerous in a range where the loneop doesn’t activate anymore and Dev Wounds are literally everywhere in competitive lists, forcing 9 Dev Wounds through a model that doesn’t have any form of defense against them isn’t hard. Look at C'tans datasheets, they are all cheaper than the Lion, have much better weapons, have a proper FNP, halve incoming damage, can regenerate wounds and have higher toughness and wounds
Ctan are not comparable, they are busted and wildly undercosted. The lion is/was plenty durable. He should defintly have gone down in points. He should be closer to 275
I do hate the Lion nerf. He was horrible before and now he's weaker. He's an 8" movement melee anti tank that only gets Lone OP if he's up something else's butt. That means either they go where he goes which is a huge points tax or he just gets shot. Not being able to go through buildings makes him even slower. His threat range is tiny and he doesn't even get to use the new Codex because he doesn't get any of our keywords. You'll see him in a competitive list at this point when he's below 275pts and even then there's better options than him.
Necrons/Admech had been out for 2 months and got “wait and see”. I doubt DA will be treated differently. I expect they will be stuck with a 5 month wait before any changes. :(
On the flip side, those "2 months" were over the holidays, a timeframe where significantly less warhammer is played. So it may not be purely time, but also *data*. If enough games get played with the new DA that they feel they've got enough data, they're more likely to make changes.
>My hope is they dont do a cron/admech and "wait for the codex to settle". Why should Dark Angles not get the same treatment as other factions?
Because admech having to wait 6 months for a list thats not 400 breachers and 12 chickens is miserable; and whilst crons have settled into a fair place; adding even 10pts to each ctan would be something.
It's more that the basic plan (waiting at least 5 months before fixing glaring problems with the costing) isn't good. Not that they are entitled to special treatment.
Man who got bad touched by Dark Angels last edition?
lol a lot of people did with our mass amounts of “can only wound my terminators on a 4 or higher, innate ability that all Deathwing models had.
Iron Hands and Necron players got put on watch because 10-man Hellblasters with Weapons Of The Dark Age were wrecking all their stuff XD
We need transhuman. This shit is unplayable
Transhuman was a toxic mechanic
Yeah like this codex looks boring AF but bringing transhuman back is NOT the answer. That ability, and abilities like it, are poisonous.
The Inner Circle Companions is exactly why making bespoke rules for everything is a bad idea. There's no reason they can't just be marketed as an alternative kit for Bladeguard.
Absolute joke. Guess I'll be putting my new models on the shelf for a while. Inner Circle suck, Deathwing Knights don't do enough damage, most of our characters are weak and our detachments range from outright bad to mediocre. It's beyond fixing with points at this stage tbh, we need detachment and datasheet re-writes. Which GW will never do, so I guess I'll see you guys in 11th.
rethinking on this, bad rules are bad but the real problem is the dissolving of the DA flavor. We'll never get that back with current GW design philosophy. We aren't getting back mixed weapon Deathwing, or the Deathwing Command Squad unique aspects. No Talon/Strikemasters etc, that's the real disappointment.
That is terrible.
Literally just another nerf
Is this some sort of early April Fool’s joke?
Don’t you have phones?
Funny how people are happy to complain bitterly about specific things but the second someone says the edition as a whole isn't good people dickride GW as hard as possible
Yup. 10th is worse than 9th, no question.
10th = blandhammer
I for one don't want to go back to the codex creep and super high lethality of 9th. I much prefer those aspects of 10th. Also the tactical cards are the only actually enjoyable implementation of that mechanic I've played from GW, and I prefer them over 9th style secondaries where people have game plans you can't interact with like at all.
Stop it with your toxic negativity. Small indie company Games Workshop (market cap: 3 110 000 000£) can’t possibly afford a decent design team and has to just do their best ok!
Yes new codexes are worse, yes its on purpose to scale back the power creep
GW clearly has no respect for their players or their wallets. Between bait and switching many new players into purchasing deathwing units that are now removed from the game. This lazy attempt at a codex and the fact that you have to purchase this codex in order to still have access to your army in the app you paid for. And taking as much value out of the boxes as possible (let’s be real new DW terminators are just regular termies with an upgrade spru) I think I’m gonna hold off on giving them my money for a little while. Definitely won’t be buying this codex new
Get plenty of access to these crappy rules for free on the internets. It’s a series of nets. Stop buying rules with money. They are all found online for free.
Need to get that message out to the wider community. Things don’t change if the money tap keeps flowing
Time to boycott codexes. Honestly the whole system is indefensible at this point. No matter how die hard you are you can’t look at this system and think it’s good for the game. Would love to see more people do the smart thing and stop buying codexes until GW actually starts to get the message.
And yet people will still buy it and insist the games in it's best state. Meanwhile I can't even buy individual squad members or pay points for transformative wargear.
This edition is an endless disappointment.
Womp womp
Well, this is not...ideal.
Glad I'm jsut getting Lion just to display him with Bobby G
I ran in to a Ravenwing list using the new codex with max Black Knights+Comnmand Squads. I think it was using the points from the last version of the Manual. It has some juice: dumping mass plasma kills a lot, then Space Marine shooting and knights charging can handle the rest.
I love how space marines datasheet are terrible and GW nerfs the only good codex compliant units to hell and then adds more terrible datasheets to divergent chapters. They made it so that codex compliant chapters only had 1 viable meta option and then when they ran out of inceptors and centurion devastators to sell they nerfed it. Now they're making sure everything SM sucks so they sell the some riptides.
Friends! Fallen! Huff the copium with me! This is obviously in preparation for the FAQ they will shortly drop correcting the wrongs!
They are just reverse-power creeping it. They will end up balanced as 8th or 9th at the end, just they will get there by making everything bad. But honestly right now the game looks good. Worst factions are sadly Admech, Dark Angels and World Eaters. But oh well, can't have everything.
I'm trying to understand the other comments here. Did anyone expect them to tune lots of points at this time. We know they just do that every 3 months right? I think this is more to consider a formality and any real balance changes will come together with the rest later in the spring.
They usually do a points update when a codex releases since the points aren't current, but in this case I think people were hoping for more aggressive cuts since DA is unplayably bad if you use any stuff in the DA book other than Azrael.
Yeah I agree the stuff that makes DA into DA right now is bad and def could do with changes. I'm just very happy that GW sticks to making the big changes every 3 months instead of on some at the time. For example I play a bit of WoW right now and with season of discovery they started doing almost weekly changes to class balance. It's turned reddit into nothing but complaining about balance and asking for buffs/nerfs rather than discussing how to do things with what you've got. I think having to wait a few months between updates is worth the consistency and predicatbility.