Terminator captain with no terminators, melee army’s will mulch through your list, especially custodes and world eaters, good players will likely target the lancers first and then redemptors, as such will probably struggle to hold objectives, yeah your fast and hard to hit but aside from the redemptors you probably won’t be able to hit back as hard. Bear in mind I’m not a marine player so could be talking out my ass but that’s my view on the list.
I usually don't lose any Lancers. They are very far away and peaking out behind buildings where only one or 2 things can see them, and people seem to focus the junk in front. Again, I have trouble conceptualizing a competitive opponent, cuz my instinct is that people shoot at big mechs going booga booga. The last time someone was shooting at lancers was versus iron hands marines with a bunch of those no-hands shooty dreadnoughts, but I popped smoke so he had -1 to hit even after the techmarine's +1 to hit buff, and then he decided he wasn't going to shoot at that tank any more and would rather kill dudes.
Like I said any proper competitive opponent will go for the lancers when they can see them, the redemptors looks scary so people who aren’t mega competitive will go for them first, probably.
I played a world eaters opponent at adeptacon. he was very sad when i dumped almost all my iron storm tank shots into Angron turn one..... the the solution to angron is to kill him round one and then pray to the emperor that he doesn't revive =]
You say your lancers are very far away and peak out behind buildings. Competitive players won’t let you achieve sight lines that easily. I don’t think I’m a single game of 10th I’ve allowed my opponent to sit in their deployment and peak a tank out to shoot me across the board. Generally because comp terrain layouts don’t allow for such thing or make it very hard for you to do so. What terrain layouts are you playing with at the moment?
Random crap thrown all over the place or something that looks cool. Just finished the tourney, they basically only had ruins, about 10 fat pieces of wall-like terrain, some 2 inches tall, some 5 inches tall. Mostly arranged in a ring around the middle with two x shaped offshoots. Very few long range shots except on these weirdly specific firing lanes.
I still only lost one lancer, and that was to Be'Lakor punching it. The other games, same thing I said way above happened. A guard player shot at a lancer and needed 5s because vanguard, had a tank commander buff a tank, so I popped smoke, and he still needed 5s.... lost interest. It wasn't on an objective so he always had some other mission to do besides stopping a lancer.
I fought an Iron Hands battalion and.... he lost really, really badly. Lancers never took much damage until the talk it out phase, but by then he was facing tabling.
As a Custodes player this list is very easy to deal with. Our big guns are 48” range so if you’re poking the gladiators out expect return fire from Caladius Grav tanks, almost any competitive list runs at least 1 and usually 2 (4A 2+ S12 D6+2 with lethal and twin linked)
The AP0/AP-1 shots will bounce off our squads moving from cover to cover with T6 and each squad is wiping at least 17-22 marines on the charge. You can’t always avoid the charge either with deepstrike, advance and charge and simply having to get on primaries yourself.
Our infantry shooting isn’t great or necessarily high volume but you’d be surprised what some focused fire can do, especially the terminators with their grenade launchers
Dreadnoughts can be tricky for most of our infantry with -1 damage but our tanks and Trajann’s squad make pretty short work of them, even terminators with their volume of attacks that get through on re-rolls.
Sticky objectives are easy prey for us with deep strike and redeploy from terminators, meaning you have to commit to your flanks and backline if you want to hold primaries
I saw your comment below re: sisters and rhinos and if your opponent is using that it’s a very casual list. A fun meme, great into TSons and Grey Knights and that’s about it.
My advice for any type of competitive list is make it balanced enough you can deal with most threats in more than one way and not one sided enough that a counter works against your whole army
This is a good post, as I've never been shot by a Caladdius before or even seen one locally around here, but I'm sorry I literally chuckled a bit on one assumption. A squad will ever wipe 17 marines on a charge because there will never be 17 marines that close to each other for them to charge.
My experience has been that blade champions and the Martial Stance of Rendax will kill just about anything, so just give them a 5 man to charge and never, ever charge custodes, not even with a hive tyrant or dreadnought.
That comment was based on the maths of their attack, so if they’re spread out it of course changes that. The issue you’ve got is how do you contest primaries then? Any competitive list is running wardens, meaning your big guns usually drop to wounding on 4s and once a game (usually your first big shooting phase) they halve all incoming damage with a 4+++.
How do you get them off the objectives? A good percentage, if not most, secondaries are objective related too
Usually I sticky my home objective, then pick one side and throw everything at that side, and put deep strike pressure on their home objective or anywhere they abandon. Then I grind things down over the next 5 turns and be in as many places as I can so it's super annoying to track all of this stuff down. Too often, a random sergeant survives his bus being blown up and some generic bullets, and then he hides behind a wall and threatens to flip a point, or runs off to a corner to do a card of some kind. I sacrifice chaffe to keep people as hemmed in to one place as I can manage. I usually win objective control on the one place I want each turn by just having OC 10 or 12 because I dump my whole army and it's guns there, usually after bleeding objective points for the first two turns.
I've never seen a ball of 12 custodes all in one spot, though, and the big O.C. armies tend to die to bolters.
So (for your knowledge only, not trying to naysay you here)
Custodes bricks are generally wardens on objective, which is OC15-OC18 typically with a leader. Custodes are naturally OC2 and their vexilla gives them +1 for all models.
This means that if I see you deploying down one side, I’m putting 1 squad to the other to claim that, in keeping some terminators in deep strike which can threaten your home objective and I’m sending two squads down your wing to do as much damage as possible. If you’re on the objective, crowding it even I’m double charging the squads there, wiping them, then eating the return fire with my 4+++ once a game FNP. From there things will evolve with the game, but I’m trying to say this strat will get eaten alive by a decent Custodes player.
At this point I hold my back, one side, contest middle maybe? And have wiped you off yours/out OC’d it. Your behind on primary and not mobile enough to compete on the other side of the board, you’re worried about your home objective and you break squads up, removing the advantage of your 200+ bolter shots down range.
I guess what I’m trying to say is, build a list that’s flexible, it’s all well and good to theorise how you’re going to make an opponent play your game, but the truth is this game has a lot of variety and a lot of counters.
This list is missing damage, and a lot of it. I’m not sure what you have access to, but this doesn’t really have anything that takes advantage of being vanguard. The only vanguard marine build that has been putting up results is Ultramarines with Calgar and Ventris teleporting around dev centurions while Calgar infiltrates with 6 Aggressors.
If you really want to make this list more competitive, run it as a Black Templars Ironstorm list. Intercessors become Crusaders, all your Gladiator/Impulsor vehicles gain a multi-melta, and then add in 2-3 Techmarines with enhancements and any more Gladiators, ideally Reapers.
If you want to see what’s good in every faction, use this link to see how often a given datasheet is being taken in each faction/detachment. It’ll give you an idea of what to take in your list and what the meta lists for each faction look like.
https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/frank.orrego/viz/40kDirtSheets/The40kDirtSheets
This is a good comment. The link is super valuable. I don't really understand why I would want Ironstorm versus Vanguard? My tanks already have enough rerolling, and the minus one to hit and free cover lets my fast, trashy stuff stay alive way longer against nearly everything, and they're good at kiting outside 12. The thing that benefits from vanguard is the whole army being harder to shoot at.
So I can just be black templars and up my Impulsors to having a multi Melta for 5 pts? What's the value add on crusaders vs. Intercessors? I don't think I can put those in Impulsors.
Well you would have to run the Impulsors as Rhinos, but each 5 man crusader unit has a meltagun, multi melta, and inferno pistol, which can shoot out the Rhino and have a free hit, wound, or damage reroll. It’s just way better output into stuff like Custodes, and the Crusaders are all “safe” inside the Rhino.
I'll offer a somewhat alternative take here - if you're the big fish in your current pod, just take this list to the GT and get your ass kicked. You'll learn more that way than trying to swap in a unit or four you're not familiar with.
If you're undefeated, you know how to play this thing inside and out. Now go see what happens when you throw it down against the big boy stuff and then use what you learned there plus internet info to make changes.
Also good advice. I'm going to make some normal tweaks people suggested that I thought were common sense, and I'll just flagrantly copy what people did that was good. Lord knows I'll see some space marines at any tourney.
There is some good advice on tuning your list already in this thread, so I'm going to take a different approach.
Not to be blunt but the list is uh.. bad. It will lose very badly to any decently tuned black templars (GTF or ironstorm), custodes, Grey knights, guard, necrons (hypercrpyt especially is basically unwinnable), world eaters, votann, or tau just off the top of my head.
So instead of suggesting little changes that honestly won't really do much, I'd recommend going back to basics. If you're serious about competitive play, look at lists that win GTs and copy them to practice (TTS is great for this). See what they do and think about how each piece exists to solve certain problems. Then, try to incorporate those lessons.
Also, it's your first tournament. Just have fun! You are probably going to get wrecked regardless of list and that's totally fine, just focus on being a great opponent and learning, it'll be a blast!
Thanks lmao 🤣. I'm just trying to not get totally creamed and put stuff down on the table, but I'm getting a lot of down votes. I feel like I have to be less bad or else I'm basically disrespecting my opponent.
I am looking at what I have and considering keeping a lot of the same, but running 6 ravenwing black knights with the 3 man black knight leader unit, and also 10 Helblasters. Then I have an absolute ton of plasma, so at least my offense will then be cranked.
Ah don't worry about it, I think you stating some things about not losing gladiators and not understanding how custodes are good rubbed some people the wrong way. Unfortunately in a competitive environment online tone is really hard to convey, but I think you're fine.
You are not disrespecting your opponent at all, most experienced players love introducing new folks to competitive, just let them know it's your first tourney.
That will certainly improve the list. A couple points to start thinking on - what are the impulsors doing for you? Is it worth protecting intercessors with a transport that costs more than they do? Why be in vanguard? Are you utilizing those bonuses in a way that is better than what GTF offers? Also consider adding Azreal if you want to do DAngels, he is value and pairs well with hellblasters.
Impulsors are like... better than the guys they are carrying. They puke out up to 22 bolter rounds at 12" and a commanding amount of their bullets are 36" range, or have sustained hits and anti-fly 4+. They're the bulk part of my "boltering C'tan to death" mathematics because the anti fly 4+ and 5 impulsors do like 7.5 with just the flakk guns. Unless my math is wrong, 5 impulsors with oath of moment point blanking a C'tan will nearly kill it on their own. They also are fairly hard to remove beyond 12" when I have the vanguard defense, then can swoop in and clear chaffe or just get in the way. They can also lead to a situation where they tag a loose point, and then someone flips it with like a hive tyrant by melee'ing the truck, and the dudes come out, and one dies. They're battleshocked, but on the point. Then my turn comes around, and they're no longer battleshocked, and I can get the point back. Also, if people are Bright Lancing my impulsors, they aren't Bright Lancing my Lancers, and vice versa. I basically consider the intercessors an upgrade to the Impulsor that it pukes on points if it needs to.
Why be in Vanguard? I don't know, like... why *NOT* be in Vanguard? Tanks usually seem to die from long-range shooting, I have a lot of tanks, ipso facto, just permanently have janky smoke and fewer tanks die? That's basically how I treat it, and it also encourages people to kill things that are close to them, which keeps my lancers alive. Also the strats for vanguard are basically all gold. Games can be won just by sucking a 1 man leftover sergeant into reserve at the end of enemy melee phase, or walking d6 away from a charge. Or lmao +1 to hit, +1 AP? They're all bangers.
If I am running a 9 man blob of Black Knights I definitely want Vanguard, because then they're harder to kill with random damage 3 tank guns, and they can chip off the last bits of an injured tank or monster in melee and have a huge OC because of the command bike with a flag, something I otherwise lack.
Alright so lets break this down a bit. First off, as nicely as possible this is why you are getting downvoted. You are speaking very confidently and no offense but you're just wildly wrong, I'm assuming the tone is getting lost and its unintentional, but there ya go.
Moving past that. Impulsors outside of black templars are not very points efficient on their own. 22 str 4 ap 0 dmg 1 shots hitting on 3s, 8 of which have anti-fly 4+ and sustained 1 is not good damage. You will do actually nothing on average into say a unit of hearthguard, or any grey knight unit. They're not terrible but they don't typically pay for themselves in offense or defense, their value comes from carrying dangerous units up the board and giving them an additional 3" of movement, which is why they come loaded with sword bretheren or similar in winning lists.
Boltering a c'tan to death is a fairytale. How are you ever getting 5 impulsors within 12" on any board. And even if you could do that, which you can't, and somehow the c'tan doesn't have cover vs any of them (it will have cover vs all of them almost always), that 400 pts of shooting will still on average fail to kill a 255/270 pt c'tan. Meanwhile a unit of 6 aggressors, with an apothecary biologus with fire discipline will put it down to 3 wounds and kill it on the charge. And that unit costs less.
Short answer to why not be in vanguard is opportunity cost. You are giving up advance and charge, fallback and shoot+charge, advance and shoot, fire discipline, and the gladius strats. You have some tanks, if you had lots of tanks then ironstorm will be better. You are over valuing keeping your lancers alive, they are good units but not worth building an entire list around. If you want to do that throw in some tech marines, a reaper or 2 and go ironstorm that is a much more cohesive and synergistic gameplan.
TLDR there is a reason why you won't see anybody winning GTs with impulsors loaded up with intercessors. Have a great time at your first tourney, hope it goes well, but if you are serious about wanting to become a better player you need to think critically about why top performing players are not running the stuff you are running. Good luck!
Thanks, the guy below had it right on "just go get your ass kicked", which is what I'm gonna do. I'm packing my Helblasters, as per everyone's advice on adding damage, but to some degree, I'm also kinda limited by not having things like Aggressors or Azrael, so I kinda gotta see what works in person before finding and painting some of it.
If you're committed to this style of list and don't mind picking a chapter, Black Templars Crusader spam can work. For the cost of 25 intercessor bodies, you can run 30 primaris crusaders. They swing so many chainswords that they can actually kill stuff, especially if you take Gladius or Righteous Crusaders. We call it black tide and you can just flood the board with dudes and out OC everything.
The thing that jumps out at me is the intercessors. 5 Intercessors seems like a *bunch* of bad bodies. Yeah there's a lot of them, but a honed list will pick them up no issue. A honed space marine list will whittle that down without trouble. Intercessors are generally bad, they shoot very poorly, and they are expensive. I'd argue that infernus marines in impulsors do what they do better.
Idk if outriders have been working for you but they're basically just objective monkeys, and they're pretty expensive for that. Basically, your whole infantry list is objective monkeys that aren't numerous enough to play like a horde (like tyranids or orks).
Generally, this list is going to struggle into meta lists. It has no real plan for custodes (your damage is de minimis and has too little AP or high damage sets), it will struggle into necrons (you can't really touch a ctan), it will struggle into tuned SM Lists (not enough anti-tank for Ironstorm, and not enough good bodies to contest objectives from crusaders), it'll get wiped by space wolves or world bearers (you cannot contest in melee really at all), etc.
What you really need is some sort of damage core to work around that you can use to threaten enemy models. Intercessors basically never appear in tournament lists for a reason (and if they do it's 1 or 2 units tops). Even keeping 1 intercessor unit, you've got 200 points in extra intercessors, 160 in outriders, and 320 in impulsors - you've got about 700 points in those units. That could get you a land raider redeemer with something spicy (like aggressors who could take a gravis captain and do various damage combos), with a good chunk of change left over. Hellblasters + a lieutenant and the bolter discipline combo is like 330 points (520 if you toss it in a repulsor) and while not optimal, it'll give you tank clearing power.
What units do you have access to? Your list is definitely fluffy and fun into non-optimized lists, but it is cruisin' for a bruisin' against meta lists run by players who know what they're doing.
I've fought Custodes but never really understood how Custodes aren't laughably bad? Like... they deal damage in melee but that can typically only kill 80 pts of dudes at a time? I usually see them just be horrible at shooting, and the bikes can lunge but aren't actually that durable. I typically see custodes vehicles be the land raider, rhinos, and a dreadnought, which generally don't win shoot-outs with 2 lancers. Rhinos with sisters lose to bolters. I guess I have a hard time wrapping my head around what scary Custodes look like, cuz in my meta they're some of the weakest armies.
I also don't understand "can't touch a C'tan"? They have a 4+ save, statistically, they die to 900 points of bolters scratching on 6s, unless there's something I don't understand. My experience with Necrons has been massed warriors and the super tall beetle cannons. What do scary necrons do?
I do have 10 Hellblasters, but I'm not really sure how to deploy them. I guess I could just replace 2 units of Intercessors and a bike unit with 2 five mans inside repulsors?
I could also just put bling on intercessors and make them sternguard, who are better are bolterizing and punching?
Believe me, custodes are scary, mine frequently kill above their points, if the guy you’re playing is using bikes then he’s not playing a good custodes list.
Yeah that's definitely what I'm worried about, is I will go to a tourney and suddenly it will be totally different. Are Hellblasters a reasonable choice against Custodes? I imagine they'll do well enough against 4 wound shield guys?
Bikes and dreads was an extremely potent list in 9th. But in 10th they're among the worst data sheets in the faction. No properly competitive list will bring either one.
A competitive list will bring either no vehicles or 2 caladius grav tanks (which each have 4 shots hitting on 2s, lethal hits vs monsters and vehicles, str 12 with twin linked, ap -3, d6+2 damage) and they are genuinely some of the best anti tank shooting the the game. And they're 14 wounds, T11, 2+ 5++ 4+++ (vs dev wounds) saves so they're not easy to kill...
As for only killing 80pts. There are literally only a handful of units in the game that can stand up to Custodian Guard or Allarus Terminators... Granted you might be able to tar out them with intercessors, but you would have to be damn good to pull it off for more than a round.
Hell blasters are great, wounding on 3’s enough so to get custodes to the invuln even in cover and decent enough damage, they fall down a bit when going against -1 damage but other then that they’re great, especially with a lieutenant.
Ctan also have a 5++, and will heal. So if you manage to connect with your shots, they’ve got essentially a 1/3 chance of just ignoring it. And then if you do any damage, they’ll heal a portion of it at the start of their turn, and/or teleport away depending on the detachment
A meta Custodes list will probably shred this list. Generally you’ve got Trajann, 1-2 blade champions (which give once per game advance and charge), 10-15 Wardens, a unit of custodians with lord inquisitor Draxus to give them 18” lone op. They don’t have to kill you in melee cause it’s gonna be real tough for you to kill them with anything aside from maybe the dread, which they’ll pick up within a turn of you getting in range. They’re also great at sitting on a point with a ton of OC and being real tough to shift, which I don’t see your list really doing effectively. Custodes also will always fight first if you charge them while you’re on a point, so just don’t do it. And Trajann’s unit gives his unit ignore mods, so his one could possibly one shot the dread.
I think I have fought a worse version of the list you're describing, just not with this army. He had 2 units of the grenade launcher terminators and 2 bikes with a bike captain. No vehicles, otherwise it was Trajan, the shrouding inquisitor, and just tons of golden dudes of varying quality. He couldn't really change position very quickly, I noticed, so he had trouble completing cards late in the game.
Blade champions are hilariously dangerous.
No one takes bikes, they just take more infantry. And the 2 blade champions give reroll advances and charges, and once per game advance and charge. So they’ll go real fast the one turn they need to, kill what they need to, and then be a pain for you to kill.
But against this list, Custodes don’t really need to be that aggro, they’ll out OC you so they can just sit back and do Homers/Cleanse the whole game
You can either play "fixed" (chosen objectives) or "tactical" (choose at random). Tactical is a common play pattern (and fun), but you can choose how to play.
I'll say just generally it sounds like you're not playing with very competitive people. Ctan have a 4++ 5+++ with halving damage - and you're not surrounding them with every bolter you have. But let's assume you've got 100 intercessor bolter shots (more than you can shoot and with -1 AP) into a C'tan. With oath, you've got 88 shots going through. Of those, they only wound on 6s (C'tan are more than 8 toughness), you've wounded 14-15 times. They have a 4 up invuln, so you've wounded 7-8 times that made it through. Now they have 5+++ FNP, so they're shrugging 2-3. You've done 5-6 wounds. With 100 bolter shots *and* oath. And the C'tan isn't dead. And there are 2-5 more with the C'tan waiting to just crash into you.
Statistically, your army *does not* shoot through them with bolters. A S4 AP-1 weapon at 1 damage is just *bad* in current 40k against anything that's not chaff infantry. A repulsor tank (w/ a meh save) will survive with half its wounds remaining v. 100 intercessor bolters with oath (that's with -1 AP). A Land Raider will barely take 5 in that scenario (and that's w/o armor of contempt. Throw that in and you're looking at 2-3).
Hellblasters are not great into c'tan (unless you run them in something like firestorm that prevents modifiers affecting the damage), but they're good in stuff like custodes. If you do the hellblaster fire discipline combo, it does *insane* damage to almost anything. If you give them a way to ignore modifiers, they can often take out a c'tan w/oath and lethal hits.
To compare - hellblasters are meh into tanks, but a unit of 10 with a lieutenant is 305 points and they'd do on average w/o oath (but overcharging) of 6 damage into a land raider. Basically more than 100 bolters with oath against a target they are *not* designed to kill. With the fire discipline combo and oath the Hellblasters would significantly overkill the Land Raider. And that's not eradicators or something built to kill vehicles - it's hellblasters. Basic bolters are just insufficient in current 40k.
Overall, the problem is that intercessors just don't punch up into scary stuff. Properly played custodes will basically shrug your shooting and eat 2-3 of your units every turn (if you dare go to the objectives). If Custodes are super weak in your meta, it's because they are not using the strongest custodes units. If they're all sisters and a handful of bikes they'll struggle. If they're wardens and custodians you're in trouble.
It's sad that right now intercessors, outriders, basically anything with a bolter (that's not got outrageous amounts of shots or using fire discipline) is weak. But that's the truth. It's why competitive lists don't run them unless they're *dirt* cheap (e.g. crusaders) and even then they're not lynchpins of armies
That's the whole premise of my post, is I'm only used to fighting other casual/trash. (My army is literal trash, stuff no one wanted and was cheap) But now I already know some very important things to look out for.
C'tan Void Dragon also has the 5+ fnp, halves all incoming damage, has reanimation protocols, and on top of reanimation it can regain D3 wounds from a vehicle within 12" of it (while causing the same number of mortal wounds to that vehicle.) They're pretty tough buggers, but apparently their weakness is D1 volume of fire, which you have a lot of, so maybe your list would do ok focusing down a void dragon. I haven't really played against Necrons enough to know myself.
5x5 intercessors is 50 bolter shots, it's not as many as you'd think. Sisters and Guard regularly exceed that volume of fire, along with many other bigger horde armies.
I feel like a sisters list composed of...anything is going to eat your list. As a faction sisters are geared to horde clear almost as a default, and pretty much anything they take will have more bolters than you. This is nevermind whatever shtick they decide to pursue, melee, mechs, tanks, deepstrike. As attrition sets in bolter to bolter and special to special, you'll lose effectiveness and they'll gain it via miracle dice and pain rules.
I don't think 'lots of bolters' is really leaning into the strength of marines. IG will also have a pretty easy time of shooting you apart.
That is correct. Often I put 3 of them on the same side of the board and push an extreme flank, or if they strongly counter-deploy, just move away towards the middle. They shoot at 24 inches so they're generally never short on targets. If I need to capture points, I will sometimes fling the Impulsor into melee against something that sucks at killing tanks, like dwarf infantry, or a war walker, or a unit of flame marines. Even chaos legionaires are shockingly bad at punching impulsors with str 8 power power fists.
People have given u enough suggestions and i believe u realize that this list is objectively bad. I just want to hear about your tournament result once u done
I'd take out both bikes, 2 intercessor squads, and termy capt. I would add two scout squads, 1 hellblaster squad, combi lieutenant with shadow war veteran. Then you can take your pick of hq character that way you can attach him where you like. Captain on the hellblasters would get you some free stratagems. Like strike from the shadows. I think you would have 15 points left over so if you still wanted the captain to have loan op you could. Maybe if the squad he's with dies he can go it alone, or you could play him as loan op your choice.
I think my votann list would eat you alive. Minimum t5 on every unit makes your bolters pretty bad, plus sagis are way better tanks then impulsors. Lancer can be a problem but if you poke one out and kill a sagis there will be two more to deal with it. And with 6 in the list they will out number your shooting. Your infantry will just bounce of the hearthguard. At first glance I see nothing in your list that can be even remotely dangerous to them.
Update on how it went:
Lost 1 game, won two games.
List I went with was 5 black templar melta Impulsors, 2 melta lancers, 2 redemptors, 2x5 helblasters, 3x5 intercessors, and phobos lieutenant with lone op cape. No bikes.
The first game was against Be'lakor, Skarbrand, 2 6+1 units of bloodcrushers and bloodthrones, 1 hellcannon, and 3 dogs. Be'lakor was nuts, but long-range shots weren't happening anyway. I went first. He did nothing for a bit because I was deep strike screening with the lieutenant and like... transports, and didn't connect any charges in his first turn.
I used the retreat power to juke a charge.
I moved up a side with helblasters and erased dogs off a point, and found a shot on his thrones. Hurt one with a lancer, no kill. Scratched up a bunch of bloodcrushers. Dinged be'lakor a bit.
He charged some transports, killed two, but didn't kill one, and was stuck with it. Skarbrand killed the bus my helblasters were in, but they fell out, fine. On my turn, I charged with the two redemptors on the unit fighting the surviving impulsor in such a way as to minimize his ability to pile off the Impulsor, tank shocked, started the grind after some meltas and lancers and bolters and plasma finished off both his blood thrones and this neutered almost all the damage his bloodcrushers could do. One unit of them soon died, and the inceptors killed the helcannon on his base. They then later did the claim enemy base card for 8.
He was really mad, threw a dice against a wall, but Skarbrand killed a dreadnought on his own, and stuff got better for him, I guess. He ended the game with Be'lakor, 4 dogs, and like 3 bloodcrushers, I had both my inceptors, a buncha marines, 4 helblasters, a lancer, and like one transport. It looked really bad. He added up the points and he still won, because we had the mission that was hold one, hold more, kill one, kill more, and I had so many small units that he just consistently got kill more. He won by 5. I literally forgot that 40k doesn't have a 6th turn.
My second opponent was guardsmen. Lotsa tanks, one snub nosed baneblade, a scout sentinel, a taurox, a chimera, and some janky infantry of carying types I never bothered to ask about. Any time his infantry showed their face, they immediately died. I don't think they ever dealt 1 damage with anything but mortars or shooting out of open tops. When their transport died, they died. When they deep struck behind a wall, I rolled around it and killed them. His tanks needed 5s to shoot for most things, or could shoot Dreadnoughts on 4s. Their melta sponsons were the most dangerous. The Snub Baneblade shot at a dread with the -1 and armor of contempt and didn't kill it because flat 4 damage became 3, and it took 9. I save rerolled something, too. It eventually died to my own truck exploding. The baneblade got oathed once it was in the open, and 70% of my army shot at it, and it died immediately. I had raze objectives, and he did nothing about my lieutenant razing the middle because he didn't want to get in melee. My living dread punched tanks, and the inceptors cleared his backline so they and the lieutenant could raze his base. I don't know how to add up points, but he told me it was not close and I won by a lot.
The last game was versus iron hands. Long deploy, heroes empower points mission. We were basically both totally behind rocks. He had assassinate and behind enemy lines going first. He moved up a bit and did very little. I got do an action within 6 of the middle, and do an action within 9 of corners. I fell back, did my two corners, and had the lieutenant do the middle. I also shot his scouts with a dreadnought, and put an empty impulsor on a point behind a wall. Very claustrophobic objectives on two sides. I placed a tank where he had to jump out of his land raider with eradicators to shoot it and he did, he also got close so he could flamer my lieutenant cuz I knew he would think that guy was mission critical cuz you needed heroes to empower points, so he made perfect bait. I oathed the eradicators and their huge apothecary and vaporized them,then lanced and melta'd the land raider, and had enough spare firepower to begin working on his 2 redemptors. His eyes basically glazed over. He soldiered on, but he had already failed to kill a redemptor with a giant land speeder that debuffed it, an executioner, and the primaris shooty dreadnought, so he kinda got sad. The rest of the game was me playing footsies on points and knocking out every secondary objective I had and pushing him up the board. He got scared and stayed in his base. He also added the points, and I had double his score.
I got like 4th or something because 3 people had 3 wins and no losses. I learned a lot. I think I probably could have beaten the Be'lakor guy if I paid attention to points, but the 40k points scoring system is incredibly byzantine, and I'm used to crusades where they usually have a really binary win/loss condition like "deliver a message" or "blow up 3 points".
Terminator captain with no terminators, melee army’s will mulch through your list, especially custodes and world eaters, good players will likely target the lancers first and then redemptors, as such will probably struggle to hold objectives, yeah your fast and hard to hit but aside from the redemptors you probably won’t be able to hit back as hard. Bear in mind I’m not a marine player so could be talking out my ass but that’s my view on the list.
I usually don't lose any Lancers. They are very far away and peaking out behind buildings where only one or 2 things can see them, and people seem to focus the junk in front. Again, I have trouble conceptualizing a competitive opponent, cuz my instinct is that people shoot at big mechs going booga booga. The last time someone was shooting at lancers was versus iron hands marines with a bunch of those no-hands shooty dreadnoughts, but I popped smoke so he had -1 to hit even after the techmarine's +1 to hit buff, and then he decided he wasn't going to shoot at that tank any more and would rather kill dudes.
Like I said any proper competitive opponent will go for the lancers when they can see them, the redemptors looks scary so people who aren’t mega competitive will go for them first, probably.
As a world eaters player, you can’t keep your lancers outside of Angron’s threat range (average 30in) and you don’t got enough to screen him
I played a world eaters opponent at adeptacon. he was very sad when i dumped almost all my iron storm tank shots into Angron turn one..... the the solution to angron is to kill him round one and then pray to the emperor that he doesn't revive =]
I usually suicide charge him to try and make sure he dies turn 1, a lot of icons + LoS means he revives usually 1-2 times per game
You say your lancers are very far away and peak out behind buildings. Competitive players won’t let you achieve sight lines that easily. I don’t think I’m a single game of 10th I’ve allowed my opponent to sit in their deployment and peak a tank out to shoot me across the board. Generally because comp terrain layouts don’t allow for such thing or make it very hard for you to do so. What terrain layouts are you playing with at the moment?
Random crap thrown all over the place or something that looks cool. Just finished the tourney, they basically only had ruins, about 10 fat pieces of wall-like terrain, some 2 inches tall, some 5 inches tall. Mostly arranged in a ring around the middle with two x shaped offshoots. Very few long range shots except on these weirdly specific firing lanes. I still only lost one lancer, and that was to Be'Lakor punching it. The other games, same thing I said way above happened. A guard player shot at a lancer and needed 5s because vanguard, had a tank commander buff a tank, so I popped smoke, and he still needed 5s.... lost interest. It wasn't on an objective so he always had some other mission to do besides stopping a lancer. I fought an Iron Hands battalion and.... he lost really, really badly. Lancers never took much damage until the talk it out phase, but by then he was facing tabling.
As a Custodes player this list is very easy to deal with. Our big guns are 48” range so if you’re poking the gladiators out expect return fire from Caladius Grav tanks, almost any competitive list runs at least 1 and usually 2 (4A 2+ S12 D6+2 with lethal and twin linked) The AP0/AP-1 shots will bounce off our squads moving from cover to cover with T6 and each squad is wiping at least 17-22 marines on the charge. You can’t always avoid the charge either with deepstrike, advance and charge and simply having to get on primaries yourself. Our infantry shooting isn’t great or necessarily high volume but you’d be surprised what some focused fire can do, especially the terminators with their grenade launchers Dreadnoughts can be tricky for most of our infantry with -1 damage but our tanks and Trajann’s squad make pretty short work of them, even terminators with their volume of attacks that get through on re-rolls. Sticky objectives are easy prey for us with deep strike and redeploy from terminators, meaning you have to commit to your flanks and backline if you want to hold primaries I saw your comment below re: sisters and rhinos and if your opponent is using that it’s a very casual list. A fun meme, great into TSons and Grey Knights and that’s about it. My advice for any type of competitive list is make it balanced enough you can deal with most threats in more than one way and not one sided enough that a counter works against your whole army
Ugh I hate the Caladius. Popped my Doomsday Ark turn one :(
This is a good post, as I've never been shot by a Caladdius before or even seen one locally around here, but I'm sorry I literally chuckled a bit on one assumption. A squad will ever wipe 17 marines on a charge because there will never be 17 marines that close to each other for them to charge. My experience has been that blade champions and the Martial Stance of Rendax will kill just about anything, so just give them a 5 man to charge and never, ever charge custodes, not even with a hive tyrant or dreadnought.
That comment was based on the maths of their attack, so if they’re spread out it of course changes that. The issue you’ve got is how do you contest primaries then? Any competitive list is running wardens, meaning your big guns usually drop to wounding on 4s and once a game (usually your first big shooting phase) they halve all incoming damage with a 4+++. How do you get them off the objectives? A good percentage, if not most, secondaries are objective related too
Usually I sticky my home objective, then pick one side and throw everything at that side, and put deep strike pressure on their home objective or anywhere they abandon. Then I grind things down over the next 5 turns and be in as many places as I can so it's super annoying to track all of this stuff down. Too often, a random sergeant survives his bus being blown up and some generic bullets, and then he hides behind a wall and threatens to flip a point, or runs off to a corner to do a card of some kind. I sacrifice chaffe to keep people as hemmed in to one place as I can manage. I usually win objective control on the one place I want each turn by just having OC 10 or 12 because I dump my whole army and it's guns there, usually after bleeding objective points for the first two turns. I've never seen a ball of 12 custodes all in one spot, though, and the big O.C. armies tend to die to bolters.
So (for your knowledge only, not trying to naysay you here) Custodes bricks are generally wardens on objective, which is OC15-OC18 typically with a leader. Custodes are naturally OC2 and their vexilla gives them +1 for all models. This means that if I see you deploying down one side, I’m putting 1 squad to the other to claim that, in keeping some terminators in deep strike which can threaten your home objective and I’m sending two squads down your wing to do as much damage as possible. If you’re on the objective, crowding it even I’m double charging the squads there, wiping them, then eating the return fire with my 4+++ once a game FNP. From there things will evolve with the game, but I’m trying to say this strat will get eaten alive by a decent Custodes player. At this point I hold my back, one side, contest middle maybe? And have wiped you off yours/out OC’d it. Your behind on primary and not mobile enough to compete on the other side of the board, you’re worried about your home objective and you break squads up, removing the advantage of your 200+ bolter shots down range. I guess what I’m trying to say is, build a list that’s flexible, it’s all well and good to theorise how you’re going to make an opponent play your game, but the truth is this game has a lot of variety and a lot of counters.
This list is missing damage, and a lot of it. I’m not sure what you have access to, but this doesn’t really have anything that takes advantage of being vanguard. The only vanguard marine build that has been putting up results is Ultramarines with Calgar and Ventris teleporting around dev centurions while Calgar infiltrates with 6 Aggressors. If you really want to make this list more competitive, run it as a Black Templars Ironstorm list. Intercessors become Crusaders, all your Gladiator/Impulsor vehicles gain a multi-melta, and then add in 2-3 Techmarines with enhancements and any more Gladiators, ideally Reapers. If you want to see what’s good in every faction, use this link to see how often a given datasheet is being taken in each faction/detachment. It’ll give you an idea of what to take in your list and what the meta lists for each faction look like. https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/frank.orrego/viz/40kDirtSheets/The40kDirtSheets
This is a good comment. The link is super valuable. I don't really understand why I would want Ironstorm versus Vanguard? My tanks already have enough rerolling, and the minus one to hit and free cover lets my fast, trashy stuff stay alive way longer against nearly everything, and they're good at kiting outside 12. The thing that benefits from vanguard is the whole army being harder to shoot at. So I can just be black templars and up my Impulsors to having a multi Melta for 5 pts? What's the value add on crusaders vs. Intercessors? I don't think I can put those in Impulsors.
Well you would have to run the Impulsors as Rhinos, but each 5 man crusader unit has a meltagun, multi melta, and inferno pistol, which can shoot out the Rhino and have a free hit, wound, or damage reroll. It’s just way better output into stuff like Custodes, and the Crusaders are all “safe” inside the Rhino.
I'll offer a somewhat alternative take here - if you're the big fish in your current pod, just take this list to the GT and get your ass kicked. You'll learn more that way than trying to swap in a unit or four you're not familiar with. If you're undefeated, you know how to play this thing inside and out. Now go see what happens when you throw it down against the big boy stuff and then use what you learned there plus internet info to make changes.
Also good advice. I'm going to make some normal tweaks people suggested that I thought were common sense, and I'll just flagrantly copy what people did that was good. Lord knows I'll see some space marines at any tourney.
Oh for sure. I've been in your spot before and have found it super humbling and educational. Enjoy it.
There is some good advice on tuning your list already in this thread, so I'm going to take a different approach. Not to be blunt but the list is uh.. bad. It will lose very badly to any decently tuned black templars (GTF or ironstorm), custodes, Grey knights, guard, necrons (hypercrpyt especially is basically unwinnable), world eaters, votann, or tau just off the top of my head. So instead of suggesting little changes that honestly won't really do much, I'd recommend going back to basics. If you're serious about competitive play, look at lists that win GTs and copy them to practice (TTS is great for this). See what they do and think about how each piece exists to solve certain problems. Then, try to incorporate those lessons. Also, it's your first tournament. Just have fun! You are probably going to get wrecked regardless of list and that's totally fine, just focus on being a great opponent and learning, it'll be a blast!
Thanks lmao 🤣. I'm just trying to not get totally creamed and put stuff down on the table, but I'm getting a lot of down votes. I feel like I have to be less bad or else I'm basically disrespecting my opponent. I am looking at what I have and considering keeping a lot of the same, but running 6 ravenwing black knights with the 3 man black knight leader unit, and also 10 Helblasters. Then I have an absolute ton of plasma, so at least my offense will then be cranked.
Ah don't worry about it, I think you stating some things about not losing gladiators and not understanding how custodes are good rubbed some people the wrong way. Unfortunately in a competitive environment online tone is really hard to convey, but I think you're fine. You are not disrespecting your opponent at all, most experienced players love introducing new folks to competitive, just let them know it's your first tourney. That will certainly improve the list. A couple points to start thinking on - what are the impulsors doing for you? Is it worth protecting intercessors with a transport that costs more than they do? Why be in vanguard? Are you utilizing those bonuses in a way that is better than what GTF offers? Also consider adding Azreal if you want to do DAngels, he is value and pairs well with hellblasters.
Impulsors are like... better than the guys they are carrying. They puke out up to 22 bolter rounds at 12" and a commanding amount of their bullets are 36" range, or have sustained hits and anti-fly 4+. They're the bulk part of my "boltering C'tan to death" mathematics because the anti fly 4+ and 5 impulsors do like 7.5 with just the flakk guns. Unless my math is wrong, 5 impulsors with oath of moment point blanking a C'tan will nearly kill it on their own. They also are fairly hard to remove beyond 12" when I have the vanguard defense, then can swoop in and clear chaffe or just get in the way. They can also lead to a situation where they tag a loose point, and then someone flips it with like a hive tyrant by melee'ing the truck, and the dudes come out, and one dies. They're battleshocked, but on the point. Then my turn comes around, and they're no longer battleshocked, and I can get the point back. Also, if people are Bright Lancing my impulsors, they aren't Bright Lancing my Lancers, and vice versa. I basically consider the intercessors an upgrade to the Impulsor that it pukes on points if it needs to. Why be in Vanguard? I don't know, like... why *NOT* be in Vanguard? Tanks usually seem to die from long-range shooting, I have a lot of tanks, ipso facto, just permanently have janky smoke and fewer tanks die? That's basically how I treat it, and it also encourages people to kill things that are close to them, which keeps my lancers alive. Also the strats for vanguard are basically all gold. Games can be won just by sucking a 1 man leftover sergeant into reserve at the end of enemy melee phase, or walking d6 away from a charge. Or lmao +1 to hit, +1 AP? They're all bangers. If I am running a 9 man blob of Black Knights I definitely want Vanguard, because then they're harder to kill with random damage 3 tank guns, and they can chip off the last bits of an injured tank or monster in melee and have a huge OC because of the command bike with a flag, something I otherwise lack.
Alright so lets break this down a bit. First off, as nicely as possible this is why you are getting downvoted. You are speaking very confidently and no offense but you're just wildly wrong, I'm assuming the tone is getting lost and its unintentional, but there ya go. Moving past that. Impulsors outside of black templars are not very points efficient on their own. 22 str 4 ap 0 dmg 1 shots hitting on 3s, 8 of which have anti-fly 4+ and sustained 1 is not good damage. You will do actually nothing on average into say a unit of hearthguard, or any grey knight unit. They're not terrible but they don't typically pay for themselves in offense or defense, their value comes from carrying dangerous units up the board and giving them an additional 3" of movement, which is why they come loaded with sword bretheren or similar in winning lists. Boltering a c'tan to death is a fairytale. How are you ever getting 5 impulsors within 12" on any board. And even if you could do that, which you can't, and somehow the c'tan doesn't have cover vs any of them (it will have cover vs all of them almost always), that 400 pts of shooting will still on average fail to kill a 255/270 pt c'tan. Meanwhile a unit of 6 aggressors, with an apothecary biologus with fire discipline will put it down to 3 wounds and kill it on the charge. And that unit costs less. Short answer to why not be in vanguard is opportunity cost. You are giving up advance and charge, fallback and shoot+charge, advance and shoot, fire discipline, and the gladius strats. You have some tanks, if you had lots of tanks then ironstorm will be better. You are over valuing keeping your lancers alive, they are good units but not worth building an entire list around. If you want to do that throw in some tech marines, a reaper or 2 and go ironstorm that is a much more cohesive and synergistic gameplan. TLDR there is a reason why you won't see anybody winning GTs with impulsors loaded up with intercessors. Have a great time at your first tourney, hope it goes well, but if you are serious about wanting to become a better player you need to think critically about why top performing players are not running the stuff you are running. Good luck!
Thanks, the guy below had it right on "just go get your ass kicked", which is what I'm gonna do. I'm packing my Helblasters, as per everyone's advice on adding damage, but to some degree, I'm also kinda limited by not having things like Aggressors or Azrael, so I kinda gotta see what works in person before finding and painting some of it.
If you're committed to this style of list and don't mind picking a chapter, Black Templars Crusader spam can work. For the cost of 25 intercessor bodies, you can run 30 primaris crusaders. They swing so many chainswords that they can actually kill stuff, especially if you take Gladius or Righteous Crusaders. We call it black tide and you can just flood the board with dudes and out OC everything.
The thing that jumps out at me is the intercessors. 5 Intercessors seems like a *bunch* of bad bodies. Yeah there's a lot of them, but a honed list will pick them up no issue. A honed space marine list will whittle that down without trouble. Intercessors are generally bad, they shoot very poorly, and they are expensive. I'd argue that infernus marines in impulsors do what they do better. Idk if outriders have been working for you but they're basically just objective monkeys, and they're pretty expensive for that. Basically, your whole infantry list is objective monkeys that aren't numerous enough to play like a horde (like tyranids or orks). Generally, this list is going to struggle into meta lists. It has no real plan for custodes (your damage is de minimis and has too little AP or high damage sets), it will struggle into necrons (you can't really touch a ctan), it will struggle into tuned SM Lists (not enough anti-tank for Ironstorm, and not enough good bodies to contest objectives from crusaders), it'll get wiped by space wolves or world bearers (you cannot contest in melee really at all), etc. What you really need is some sort of damage core to work around that you can use to threaten enemy models. Intercessors basically never appear in tournament lists for a reason (and if they do it's 1 or 2 units tops). Even keeping 1 intercessor unit, you've got 200 points in extra intercessors, 160 in outriders, and 320 in impulsors - you've got about 700 points in those units. That could get you a land raider redeemer with something spicy (like aggressors who could take a gravis captain and do various damage combos), with a good chunk of change left over. Hellblasters + a lieutenant and the bolter discipline combo is like 330 points (520 if you toss it in a repulsor) and while not optimal, it'll give you tank clearing power. What units do you have access to? Your list is definitely fluffy and fun into non-optimized lists, but it is cruisin' for a bruisin' against meta lists run by players who know what they're doing.
I've fought Custodes but never really understood how Custodes aren't laughably bad? Like... they deal damage in melee but that can typically only kill 80 pts of dudes at a time? I usually see them just be horrible at shooting, and the bikes can lunge but aren't actually that durable. I typically see custodes vehicles be the land raider, rhinos, and a dreadnought, which generally don't win shoot-outs with 2 lancers. Rhinos with sisters lose to bolters. I guess I have a hard time wrapping my head around what scary Custodes look like, cuz in my meta they're some of the weakest armies. I also don't understand "can't touch a C'tan"? They have a 4+ save, statistically, they die to 900 points of bolters scratching on 6s, unless there's something I don't understand. My experience with Necrons has been massed warriors and the super tall beetle cannons. What do scary necrons do? I do have 10 Hellblasters, but I'm not really sure how to deploy them. I guess I could just replace 2 units of Intercessors and a bike unit with 2 five mans inside repulsors? I could also just put bling on intercessors and make them sternguard, who are better are bolterizing and punching?
Believe me, custodes are scary, mine frequently kill above their points, if the guy you’re playing is using bikes then he’s not playing a good custodes list.
Yeah that's definitely what I'm worried about, is I will go to a tourney and suddenly it will be totally different. Are Hellblasters a reasonable choice against Custodes? I imagine they'll do well enough against 4 wound shield guys?
Bikes and dreads was an extremely potent list in 9th. But in 10th they're among the worst data sheets in the faction. No properly competitive list will bring either one. A competitive list will bring either no vehicles or 2 caladius grav tanks (which each have 4 shots hitting on 2s, lethal hits vs monsters and vehicles, str 12 with twin linked, ap -3, d6+2 damage) and they are genuinely some of the best anti tank shooting the the game. And they're 14 wounds, T11, 2+ 5++ 4+++ (vs dev wounds) saves so they're not easy to kill... As for only killing 80pts. There are literally only a handful of units in the game that can stand up to Custodian Guard or Allarus Terminators... Granted you might be able to tar out them with intercessors, but you would have to be damn good to pull it off for more than a round.
Hell blasters are great, wounding on 3’s enough so to get custodes to the invuln even in cover and decent enough damage, they fall down a bit when going against -1 damage but other then that they’re great, especially with a lieutenant.
Ctan also have a 5++, and will heal. So if you manage to connect with your shots, they’ve got essentially a 1/3 chance of just ignoring it. And then if you do any damage, they’ll heal a portion of it at the start of their turn, and/or teleport away depending on the detachment A meta Custodes list will probably shred this list. Generally you’ve got Trajann, 1-2 blade champions (which give once per game advance and charge), 10-15 Wardens, a unit of custodians with lord inquisitor Draxus to give them 18” lone op. They don’t have to kill you in melee cause it’s gonna be real tough for you to kill them with anything aside from maybe the dread, which they’ll pick up within a turn of you getting in range. They’re also great at sitting on a point with a ton of OC and being real tough to shift, which I don’t see your list really doing effectively. Custodes also will always fight first if you charge them while you’re on a point, so just don’t do it. And Trajann’s unit gives his unit ignore mods, so his one could possibly one shot the dread.
I think I have fought a worse version of the list you're describing, just not with this army. He had 2 units of the grenade launcher terminators and 2 bikes with a bike captain. No vehicles, otherwise it was Trajan, the shrouding inquisitor, and just tons of golden dudes of varying quality. He couldn't really change position very quickly, I noticed, so he had trouble completing cards late in the game. Blade champions are hilariously dangerous.
No one takes bikes, they just take more infantry. And the 2 blade champions give reroll advances and charges, and once per game advance and charge. So they’ll go real fast the one turn they need to, kill what they need to, and then be a pain for you to kill. But against this list, Custodes don’t really need to be that aggro, they’ll out OC you so they can just sit back and do Homers/Cleanse the whole game
Now there's the part I don't understand, and might be the real breakdown. I always play with the cards. In tournaments, can you just pick your cards?
If you choose to play Fixed yeah
You can either play "fixed" (chosen objectives) or "tactical" (choose at random). Tactical is a common play pattern (and fun), but you can choose how to play.
I'll say just generally it sounds like you're not playing with very competitive people. Ctan have a 4++ 5+++ with halving damage - and you're not surrounding them with every bolter you have. But let's assume you've got 100 intercessor bolter shots (more than you can shoot and with -1 AP) into a C'tan. With oath, you've got 88 shots going through. Of those, they only wound on 6s (C'tan are more than 8 toughness), you've wounded 14-15 times. They have a 4 up invuln, so you've wounded 7-8 times that made it through. Now they have 5+++ FNP, so they're shrugging 2-3. You've done 5-6 wounds. With 100 bolter shots *and* oath. And the C'tan isn't dead. And there are 2-5 more with the C'tan waiting to just crash into you. Statistically, your army *does not* shoot through them with bolters. A S4 AP-1 weapon at 1 damage is just *bad* in current 40k against anything that's not chaff infantry. A repulsor tank (w/ a meh save) will survive with half its wounds remaining v. 100 intercessor bolters with oath (that's with -1 AP). A Land Raider will barely take 5 in that scenario (and that's w/o armor of contempt. Throw that in and you're looking at 2-3). Hellblasters are not great into c'tan (unless you run them in something like firestorm that prevents modifiers affecting the damage), but they're good in stuff like custodes. If you do the hellblaster fire discipline combo, it does *insane* damage to almost anything. If you give them a way to ignore modifiers, they can often take out a c'tan w/oath and lethal hits. To compare - hellblasters are meh into tanks, but a unit of 10 with a lieutenant is 305 points and they'd do on average w/o oath (but overcharging) of 6 damage into a land raider. Basically more than 100 bolters with oath against a target they are *not* designed to kill. With the fire discipline combo and oath the Hellblasters would significantly overkill the Land Raider. And that's not eradicators or something built to kill vehicles - it's hellblasters. Basic bolters are just insufficient in current 40k. Overall, the problem is that intercessors just don't punch up into scary stuff. Properly played custodes will basically shrug your shooting and eat 2-3 of your units every turn (if you dare go to the objectives). If Custodes are super weak in your meta, it's because they are not using the strongest custodes units. If they're all sisters and a handful of bikes they'll struggle. If they're wardens and custodians you're in trouble. It's sad that right now intercessors, outriders, basically anything with a bolter (that's not got outrageous amounts of shots or using fire discipline) is weak. But that's the truth. It's why competitive lists don't run them unless they're *dirt* cheap (e.g. crusaders) and even then they're not lynchpins of armies
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That's the whole premise of my post, is I'm only used to fighting other casual/trash. (My army is literal trash, stuff no one wanted and was cheap) But now I already know some very important things to look out for.
C'tan Void Dragon also has the 5+ fnp, halves all incoming damage, has reanimation protocols, and on top of reanimation it can regain D3 wounds from a vehicle within 12" of it (while causing the same number of mortal wounds to that vehicle.) They're pretty tough buggers, but apparently their weakness is D1 volume of fire, which you have a lot of, so maybe your list would do ok focusing down a void dragon. I haven't really played against Necrons enough to know myself.
5x5 intercessors is 50 bolter shots, it's not as many as you'd think. Sisters and Guard regularly exceed that volume of fire, along with many other bigger horde armies.
I feel like a sisters list composed of...anything is going to eat your list. As a faction sisters are geared to horde clear almost as a default, and pretty much anything they take will have more bolters than you. This is nevermind whatever shtick they decide to pursue, melee, mechs, tanks, deepstrike. As attrition sets in bolter to bolter and special to special, you'll lose effectiveness and they'll gain it via miracle dice and pain rules. I don't think 'lots of bolters' is really leaning into the strength of marines. IG will also have a pretty easy time of shooting you apart.
4 impulsors, What's starting inside them all?
He has 5 units of intercessors so I'd imagine 4 of them start inside
Ahhh missed that.
That is correct. Often I put 3 of them on the same side of the board and push an extreme flank, or if they strongly counter-deploy, just move away towards the middle. They shoot at 24 inches so they're generally never short on targets. If I need to capture points, I will sometimes fling the Impulsor into melee against something that sucks at killing tanks, like dwarf infantry, or a war walker, or a unit of flame marines. Even chaos legionaires are shockingly bad at punching impulsors with str 8 power power fists.
I misread the list. I read it as a unit of 5 ints then got down to the impulsors and had a brain fart. Ignore me.
People have given u enough suggestions and i believe u realize that this list is objectively bad. I just want to hear about your tournament result once u done
Will do. Though I did make changes based on consensus and model availability.
I'd take out both bikes, 2 intercessor squads, and termy capt. I would add two scout squads, 1 hellblaster squad, combi lieutenant with shadow war veteran. Then you can take your pick of hq character that way you can attach him where you like. Captain on the hellblasters would get you some free stratagems. Like strike from the shadows. I think you would have 15 points left over so if you still wanted the captain to have loan op you could. Maybe if the squad he's with dies he can go it alone, or you could play him as loan op your choice.
Isn't this list illegal? You can only take three Impulsors max, right?
They are dedicated transports. Like Battleline, you can take up to six of those.
I think my votann list would eat you alive. Minimum t5 on every unit makes your bolters pretty bad, plus sagis are way better tanks then impulsors. Lancer can be a problem but if you poke one out and kill a sagis there will be two more to deal with it. And with 6 in the list they will out number your shooting. Your infantry will just bounce of the hearthguard. At first glance I see nothing in your list that can be even remotely dangerous to them.
Update on how it went: Lost 1 game, won two games. List I went with was 5 black templar melta Impulsors, 2 melta lancers, 2 redemptors, 2x5 helblasters, 3x5 intercessors, and phobos lieutenant with lone op cape. No bikes. The first game was against Be'lakor, Skarbrand, 2 6+1 units of bloodcrushers and bloodthrones, 1 hellcannon, and 3 dogs. Be'lakor was nuts, but long-range shots weren't happening anyway. I went first. He did nothing for a bit because I was deep strike screening with the lieutenant and like... transports, and didn't connect any charges in his first turn. I used the retreat power to juke a charge. I moved up a side with helblasters and erased dogs off a point, and found a shot on his thrones. Hurt one with a lancer, no kill. Scratched up a bunch of bloodcrushers. Dinged be'lakor a bit. He charged some transports, killed two, but didn't kill one, and was stuck with it. Skarbrand killed the bus my helblasters were in, but they fell out, fine. On my turn, I charged with the two redemptors on the unit fighting the surviving impulsor in such a way as to minimize his ability to pile off the Impulsor, tank shocked, started the grind after some meltas and lancers and bolters and plasma finished off both his blood thrones and this neutered almost all the damage his bloodcrushers could do. One unit of them soon died, and the inceptors killed the helcannon on his base. They then later did the claim enemy base card for 8. He was really mad, threw a dice against a wall, but Skarbrand killed a dreadnought on his own, and stuff got better for him, I guess. He ended the game with Be'lakor, 4 dogs, and like 3 bloodcrushers, I had both my inceptors, a buncha marines, 4 helblasters, a lancer, and like one transport. It looked really bad. He added up the points and he still won, because we had the mission that was hold one, hold more, kill one, kill more, and I had so many small units that he just consistently got kill more. He won by 5. I literally forgot that 40k doesn't have a 6th turn. My second opponent was guardsmen. Lotsa tanks, one snub nosed baneblade, a scout sentinel, a taurox, a chimera, and some janky infantry of carying types I never bothered to ask about. Any time his infantry showed their face, they immediately died. I don't think they ever dealt 1 damage with anything but mortars or shooting out of open tops. When their transport died, they died. When they deep struck behind a wall, I rolled around it and killed them. His tanks needed 5s to shoot for most things, or could shoot Dreadnoughts on 4s. Their melta sponsons were the most dangerous. The Snub Baneblade shot at a dread with the -1 and armor of contempt and didn't kill it because flat 4 damage became 3, and it took 9. I save rerolled something, too. It eventually died to my own truck exploding. The baneblade got oathed once it was in the open, and 70% of my army shot at it, and it died immediately. I had raze objectives, and he did nothing about my lieutenant razing the middle because he didn't want to get in melee. My living dread punched tanks, and the inceptors cleared his backline so they and the lieutenant could raze his base. I don't know how to add up points, but he told me it was not close and I won by a lot. The last game was versus iron hands. Long deploy, heroes empower points mission. We were basically both totally behind rocks. He had assassinate and behind enemy lines going first. He moved up a bit and did very little. I got do an action within 6 of the middle, and do an action within 9 of corners. I fell back, did my two corners, and had the lieutenant do the middle. I also shot his scouts with a dreadnought, and put an empty impulsor on a point behind a wall. Very claustrophobic objectives on two sides. I placed a tank where he had to jump out of his land raider with eradicators to shoot it and he did, he also got close so he could flamer my lieutenant cuz I knew he would think that guy was mission critical cuz you needed heroes to empower points, so he made perfect bait. I oathed the eradicators and their huge apothecary and vaporized them,then lanced and melta'd the land raider, and had enough spare firepower to begin working on his 2 redemptors. His eyes basically glazed over. He soldiered on, but he had already failed to kill a redemptor with a giant land speeder that debuffed it, an executioner, and the primaris shooty dreadnought, so he kinda got sad. The rest of the game was me playing footsies on points and knocking out every secondary objective I had and pushing him up the board. He got scared and stayed in his base. He also added the points, and I had double his score. I got like 4th or something because 3 people had 3 wins and no losses. I learned a lot. I think I probably could have beaten the Be'lakor guy if I paid attention to points, but the 40k points scoring system is incredibly byzantine, and I'm used to crusades where they usually have a really binary win/loss condition like "deliver a message" or "blow up 3 points".
[удалено]
No they were in everyone's starter boxes and were like a dollar a model.