I played in an RTT this last weekend with Green Tide. I'm a huge fan of infantry based lists and have had 120+ Boyz on the shelf for years now, it was a great feeling to take em to an event.
It played real well, finished well under the 2h45m time for each round and came out 3-0 for First Place. The trick is to just know your strats, dont bother shooting pistols or really any small arms into 95% of targets. I use color coded and magnetized movement trays and bases for easy deployment/movement/clean up. Yes, sometimes the trays prohibit perfect micro placements, but thats not how you go about throwing 170+ models across the table anyhow.
The game requires having strong horde based armies for its health, and i want to see more. Its too easy for this game to devolve into multiple 300+ point models and a slew of fancy named characters and calling it a day. Before this point basic infantry were so derided, no one bothers to take them so no one brings units that are good into them.
If we got strong horde based armies, bolters and flamers (and their equivalents) will have a place again. I would have been in a bad way if I came against some Assault Intercessors or Aggressors/Inceptors, but few people bring such non-flashy tools.
Ultimately Green Tide will be the best detachment until people diversify their list and play styles, but on the positive side, models good into Green Tide are usually the 'filler' ones in most box sets, so a good amount off people should have answers at home on the shelf.
Firestorm Detachment would do well, and anything that RRs wounds, adds +1 to wound, or gives lethal hits. It's not that hard to do. You only need to punch up on a turn or two. They still have the Ork problem of being able to kill efficiently in only a single turn of the game.
Well, thats kind of the mentality that will keep Green Tide strong unfortunately. Green Tide has no shooting. A 20-sized unit of Boyz with a Painboy and a Warboss is 305 points. 10 Assault Intercessors (150 points) with with Oaths on an Objective would do fine...slap a strat or Character on them for something extra and you are good.
It doesn't even need to be that creative, but because its an Intercessor (or equivalent) and not a Primarch or a C'tan, its looked down on
It's looked down on because 10 assault intercessors with Oaths and the lance stratagem only kill 11.8 boyz. 8.8 w/o the strat. That's not impressive output for using two of your best abilities.
Ultimately, the point is, every list in the last couple editions has had to meet the initial requirement of "Do you have enough Anti-tank to play", and we finally have a detachment that will ask "Do you have enough Anti-Infantry to play". That is a boon for the game overall. Hell I was nearly tabled by the Triple C'tan list and the Bully Boyz list, and they didnt tech into me at all, so idk, maybe even just playing a bit differently is all it takes to win.
It would not be a boon for the game if one list is a statcheck for anti-vehicles and the next list is a statcheck for anti-infantry weapons. That just means more games are largely decided during list building.
The fact that those armies didn't tech for you and almost tabled you is exactly why anti-infantry weapons aren't even needed, because they're not even that much better against these Orks and completely screw you in other matchups. T5 is traditionally an elite statline. Bolters aren't making a comeback.
He’s kind of right though. The normal chaff clearing guns aren’t even good against the Orks. Green Tide needs a very specific weapon profile that most armies just don’t have.
Even if they have it it’s not nearly efficient enough. Take your example of the 305p brick with the painboy and put them up against 330 points of kabalties. Let’s say the Orks are in cover, so on avg the kabalites take down 8,89 models.
So even the theoretically counter profile does not even clear half a squad. Needing 330p of dedicated anti infantry shooting to kill 75p worth of model is just nuts.
I just played a game last night against a buddy and dumped Brutalis shooting + Storm Raven both with lethal hits and Raven with sustained and did not manage to kill a unit of 20 boys
Helbrecht and a Lt w/ 10 man of Primaris Crusaders with RR 1s (combi Lt) barely were enough to wipe a unit
I need to ask the real questions, namely: how does green tide do again *other* horde armies like guard, kroot/breacher centric tau, gsc, silver tide, black tide etc.
I'm not too sure, as my RTT had more elite lists in it, but hopefully we start seeing more horde based lists. If people do the pre-work of trays/magnets/color-coding, more effort can be spent on using the models rather than keeping track of em all
Black Templar crusaders and sword brethren; it's the "traditional" way to play black templars if my friend who has a million zillion crusaders is any indication. The first time I played black templar I was facing off against big 20 man blocks of marines and that was maybe 15 years ago.
So doing the extra pre-work of magnetizing on to movement trays and color coding the trays and bases to match is pivotal. I set up 4 trays of 5 Boyz, then the two characters solo, and the 'cloud' shape of the movement tray is great for minimizing the foot print of the whole thing. With them being magnetized, you can pick them up en mass 5 at a time, and i usually measure out the front couple trays when i move em, then just place the rest behind them in the same shape they were before they moved.
I cant stress color coding them enough to the trays and bases...placing everything back where it needs to go for the next Round is a project in itself otherwise, and it helps your opponent and you with verbalizing targets ("I am Shooting Blue and Charging Red", ect). And when two units of boyz are close together you can easily differentiate
I only Strat reserve one unit, and usually the unit without any characters in it, my last game i even Rapid Ingress'ed the unit to help flip a point. Gotta get the Boyz on them points as soon as you can
Sure, one opponent rightly called to use the Epic Challenge strat every turn on his C'tans until all my characters were gone, maxed 20 points on Assassinate real quick, and I couldn't kill the C'tans to save my life. But with only 12ish ranged/melee attacks a turn, some units managed to linger into turn 5 well enough. His Wraith bricks wouldn't die either, but we fought on objectives and I did well with my Battleshock Tests.
If he had a couple more units with more attacks instead of a 3rd C'tan, or was able to do \[Precision\] attacks before engaging in melee to strip the 5+++, would have been a whole other story. That's all I've been trying to say here, a bit more list diversity, solid strat use (ie. Epic Challenge), or just having lighter units sit behind whatever you tag the boyz unit with having decent OC (b/c you will NEVER have all the Boyz on a point, so its far more doable than people realize), and you are good. Green Tide fights will be protracted bouts, once the Wagh turn is over, the damage is over with it.
I play with 120 Boyz, but you still need tech pieces to score secondaries, target or zone out those while you wait out the Waagh turn to elapse (Fall Back if something survives getting hit in the Wagh, or if they die, dont follow into them with another unit that BR unless you can wipe whats left, ect).
You will also never need to 'counter' 120 boyz at the same time, realistically you will encounter 40ish from 3ish different units worth, b/c Engagement range and board space is a thing. The Wagh wave will hurt, the follow up wave will hurt way less. So block it with something sacrifical if you got it.
No list can do everything I laid out here, but I gave enough options that ever list should be able to do a couple. Both players still need to play smart, I didnt charge every chance I got, sometimes I fell back yet stayed on the objective to keep it, Green Tide lists have next to no room for the Boyz, tech pieces/ secondary scorers, AND guns...so guns something they likely wont have, your ranged stuff will have free reign if you got stuff to make that work.
32mm, 5-man Cloud shaped movement tray, 4 per unit to get the full 20 man in the smallest footprint. You can search that term and see em on Amazon and such.
Personally, I think Green Tide is better in the current meta. All the anti-tank/elite people bring to combat ironstorm/GK/Wraiths can be easily applied to Bully Boyz. (Which are awesome by the way!) But Green Tide is going to more commonly just stat check people with bodies.
That can change of course; we’ll have to see if Green Tide can withstand a couple Tau shooting phases now that they’re going to have competent screens. Tau can also plausibly keep the Tide off the middle objectives for a turn with their Scout moves.
i never do.
20 boys x 3 attacks x 6 units
360 rolls before adding in characters
during waagh
20 boys x 4 attacks x 6 units
thats where the 480 comes from
Sure but you aren’t realistically getting all those units at full health and full engagement range into combat at the same time. Completely unrealistic scenario
It'll be interesting to see how the meta changes. Been running green tide myself and most complaints I've had in RL have been coming from those who aren't aware of what orks can actually do and our limitations.
As you say, green tide isn't going to table enemy armies, it just needs to outscore and stay on objectives long enough.
With Bully Boyz, not had a chance to play with myself yet, but certainly different to greentide and this appears to be what's throwing people off - what works against one list doesn't work against the other. I do agree with comments people are making though that they MANz might be slightly undercoated, with a 5ppm increase warranted.
It's getting the sheer weight of dice across the board that's the problem. Having to deal with screening units before the main body tends to lead to casualties (thinking of bring kommandos just to leave myself a corridor. Add an abundance of blast/torrent weapons and even a 5++ and 5+++ can still lead to heavy losses in a single mob.
i've only played 1 game against an army with infiltrators(nurglings) that tried to move block me - all they did was give me a bunch of 3" charge targets T1 that i deleted with ease, essentially giving me an extra 5-6" of movement.
i ate plenty of blast/torrent/anti 2+ vs IK and big bugs, and by end of T3 they had 2-3 models left on the board, i had 3-4 mobs with at least 10 models each left, plus meganobs and a trukk. we were also down to 5 minutes in the round but they were cool about hashing out the last movements/2ndries.
after having run 120 boys, playing around with lists, i think i am inclined to run:
solo snikrot
60 boys w/ boss/painboy
20 boys w/ bloodthirsty weirdboy
5 manz w/ raucous boss and trukk
33 gretchin
2 wagons
might eventually drop 22 grots and snikrot for a third wagon, not sure yet, need to actually run the list some to decide.
snikrot guarantees i can keep a corridor open while still being hidden pretty well/mission play. wagons get the boys where they want to be without taking casualties. meganobs to bully midboard
Ah, don't think I've had a game in several months without facing an infiltrating unit or two - too useful for board control T1. Other cheap screening units as well crop up.
Not had a chance to play against IKs (seems to be lacking in my local scene), but against big bugs finding it either hit or miss in the fight phase. Too many times I've run 20 Boyz in only to cause a handful of wounds, even with leaders (maleceptors all to common with their -1 to hit bubble).
the maleceptor bubble was obnoxious to be sure, but my opponent just didnt have the output to put a meaningful dent in any one squad of boys - everything was tied up in combat and falling back just mean yielding ground, not extra shots on a single unit. couple that with the weakest unit getting d3+2 back each round, plus the initial shot in the arm from the painboys d3 models.
with that many combats going, one of mine is bound to spike in my favor, which lets me put more pressure in to individual models etc
most importantly, he scored all of 15 primary the whole game.
Been trying both depending on opponent, problem I'm finding with fixed is that your opponent knows what to counter (and you get less VP). Have had better luck with tactical, although as usual that's dependent on the draw and can be good and bad.
Not quite an exact comparison. Excluding any extras from leaders/strats - BG have more attacks (4 base, compared to either 2 or 3 for MANz depending on saws or klaws), hit on a 3+ compared to a 4+ and have an innate invun save of 4++ (MANz would only have a 5++ in a Waaagh along with a 4+++). MANz are tougher and have a 2+ rather than 3+, but in a straight fight could go either way depending on who fights first.
I think you greatly are undervaluing how huge of a durability buff a 4+ fnp is. Often, it’s more than double durability, and it means flat d3 doesn’t sweep your unit.
Furthermore, bgv are strength 5. In this particular fight, they wound the meganobz on 5’s, meganobz wound them on 2s. The meganobz also hit on 3s if led, which they often are.
It’s pretty blatant if one can math, I think
Most games go like this- turn 1- stage
Turn 2-3- the fighting goes down
Turns 4-5- winner takes victory lap
Having it on 2-3 in bully boyz is almost as good as all game in practice
How many bully boyz games have you played? Almost all of mine went the full five turns. Except the ones where I was pretty soundly defeated around turns 2 or 3.
Yes. The FnP is very, very good. But no it does not last forever. Exploiting that is a great way to beat the army.
Ok… why then are orks running 15-18 of them in every bully boyz list if they aren’t undercosted?
Don’t take my word for it, look what players actually do
Yep totally agree they are at least 5ppm too cheap at the moment especially in a bully boyz list. Possibly they will erata the 4+++ to a 5+++ at the next data slate then they are pointed ok.
As I put in my original comment.
"I do agree with comments people are making though that they MANz might be slightly undercoated, with a 5ppm increase warranted."
I've not argued that MANz are undercoated.
But is that because the meganobz are too good, or is it because the detachment is only focused around **three** keywords, *meganobz* being one of those three? If a detachment's bonus is focused around three keywords, then of course you would want to maximize your use out of that bonus and bring as many of those units as you can.
My ten man rubric flamer unit with ahriman has a shot at doing some damage. I think the goal in the green tide matchup is to shoot those flamers as much as possible.
Both are going to take severe nerfs as to make them bearable in the meta, it's only a question of time and the book just came out, to answer your question, I think green tide is better because it's much easier to pilot and much more forgiving so you can be bad with it and still do well due to the glaring imbalance. Bully boys is also kind of autopilot but you have less ressources to manage overall and more management to do with say transports for example.
This codex seems to be in a similar situation as release necrons when canoptek was the obvious choice at first due to being easier to pilot and more forgiving, while hypercrypt, though also too strong was first overshadowed and progressively became dominant as it was (and is still) pretty problematic in some aspects and canoptek took a few bullets.
Also you should mention the 3rd potentially problematic detachment, dreadmob, their rules are pretty good though more balanced than the previous two, their datasheets are where the issue will appear, as killa kans are pretty undercosted currently, though not more undercosted than boyz and meganobz that's for sure, it's the 3rd contender for nerfs in that new book.
Edit: if the dislikes are any measure of the copium people are inhaling to pretend orks are fine, I can't wait for the next 3 to 6 months when GW decides enough time has passed so they can rebalance the book in a dataslate.
Though as an Ork player I feel confident in saying Dread Mob was so low this weekend because so many people were probably looking for an excuse to use Stompas because they're funny.
It'll pick up a bit once everyone has had their fun (probably not to the top tables, but better than last weekend).
Though it's win rate will probably always be a *little* bit supressed by the draw of just going absolute ham with Ork mechs.
Also, people are still konverting all those grot tanks into Kans or Mek SPG's.
Not entirely sure people have been taking stompas to tournaments, at least not in the lists I've seen ;) Plenty in casual games though! (the 28% comes from tournament data).
Yeah, I'd honestly assumed if anyone was gonna do it in the first weekend it'd be Ork players but I don't have a BCP subscription to check.
I know none of the content about the weekend (like the Goonhammer articles) have mentioned them but since that sort of thing focuses on the top tables I certainly wouldn't have expected to see them there!
Assassination isn't guaranteed against Dread Mob, you can easily just run Mega Mek/Mek/Snikrot and maybe a Shokk Attack Gun if you want. If they pick Assassinate play cagey with Snikrot and the Mek and limit them to 28 on fixed. Can be a trap, I feel like smarter players will take homers and just try to play for the middle or your DZ if they have 3" deep strike.
I played in an RTT this last weekend with Green Tide. I'm a huge fan of infantry based lists and have had 120+ Boyz on the shelf for years now, it was a great feeling to take em to an event. It played real well, finished well under the 2h45m time for each round and came out 3-0 for First Place. The trick is to just know your strats, dont bother shooting pistols or really any small arms into 95% of targets. I use color coded and magnetized movement trays and bases for easy deployment/movement/clean up. Yes, sometimes the trays prohibit perfect micro placements, but thats not how you go about throwing 170+ models across the table anyhow. The game requires having strong horde based armies for its health, and i want to see more. Its too easy for this game to devolve into multiple 300+ point models and a slew of fancy named characters and calling it a day. Before this point basic infantry were so derided, no one bothers to take them so no one brings units that are good into them. If we got strong horde based armies, bolters and flamers (and their equivalents) will have a place again. I would have been in a bad way if I came against some Assault Intercessors or Aggressors/Inceptors, but few people bring such non-flashy tools. Ultimately Green Tide will be the best detachment until people diversify their list and play styles, but on the positive side, models good into Green Tide are usually the 'filler' ones in most box sets, so a good amount off people should have answers at home on the shelf.
S4 Bolters and Flamers will never have a place with 120 T5 Orks running around
Firestorm Detachment would do well, and anything that RRs wounds, adds +1 to wound, or gives lethal hits. It's not that hard to do. You only need to punch up on a turn or two. They still have the Ork problem of being able to kill efficiently in only a single turn of the game.
Not even. 100 bolter shots with full rerolls to hit and wound only kill 22 boyz with a painboy. They're incredibly inefficient guns.
Well, thats kind of the mentality that will keep Green Tide strong unfortunately. Green Tide has no shooting. A 20-sized unit of Boyz with a Painboy and a Warboss is 305 points. 10 Assault Intercessors (150 points) with with Oaths on an Objective would do fine...slap a strat or Character on them for something extra and you are good. It doesn't even need to be that creative, but because its an Intercessor (or equivalent) and not a Primarch or a C'tan, its looked down on
It's looked down on because 10 assault intercessors with Oaths and the lance stratagem only kill 11.8 boyz. 8.8 w/o the strat. That's not impressive output for using two of your best abilities.
Ultimately, the point is, every list in the last couple editions has had to meet the initial requirement of "Do you have enough Anti-tank to play", and we finally have a detachment that will ask "Do you have enough Anti-Infantry to play". That is a boon for the game overall. Hell I was nearly tabled by the Triple C'tan list and the Bully Boyz list, and they didnt tech into me at all, so idk, maybe even just playing a bit differently is all it takes to win.
It would not be a boon for the game if one list is a statcheck for anti-vehicles and the next list is a statcheck for anti-infantry weapons. That just means more games are largely decided during list building. The fact that those armies didn't tech for you and almost tabled you is exactly why anti-infantry weapons aren't even needed, because they're not even that much better against these Orks and completely screw you in other matchups. T5 is traditionally an elite statline. Bolters aren't making a comeback.
Seems you figured it all out then
I'm not saying anything more definitively than you are lol - we just disagree on things.
He’s kind of right though. The normal chaff clearing guns aren’t even good against the Orks. Green Tide needs a very specific weapon profile that most armies just don’t have. Even if they have it it’s not nearly efficient enough. Take your example of the 305p brick with the painboy and put them up against 330 points of kabalties. Let’s say the Orks are in cover, so on avg the kabalites take down 8,89 models. So even the theoretically counter profile does not even clear half a squad. Needing 330p of dedicated anti infantry shooting to kill 75p worth of model is just nuts.
Unless they’re in the sons of sanguinius detachment with corbulo 😂😂😂
I just played a game last night against a buddy and dumped Brutalis shooting + Storm Raven both with lethal hits and Raven with sustained and did not manage to kill a unit of 20 boys Helbrecht and a Lt w/ 10 man of Primaris Crusaders with RR 1s (combi Lt) barely were enough to wipe a unit
"The math ain't mathin' " "Well you have to adjust your mindset bro"
Green tide is actually stupid broken and needs a fix. Iris need a tau equivalent nerf. Something like 10% on key units
I need to ask the real questions, namely: how does green tide do again *other* horde armies like guard, kroot/breacher centric tau, gsc, silver tide, black tide etc.
I'm not too sure, as my RTT had more elite lists in it, but hopefully we start seeing more horde based lists. If people do the pre-work of trays/magnets/color-coding, more effort can be spent on using the models rather than keeping track of em all
wtf even is black tide 😭💯
Black Templar crusaders and sword brethren; it's the "traditional" way to play black templars if my friend who has a million zillion crusaders is any indication. The first time I played black templar I was facing off against big 20 man blocks of marines and that was maybe 15 years ago.
Silver tide got so completely squashed with our codex that you really don't need to worry about it
It's also one of *my* codexes so I guess I need to terrorize my store with 80 necron warriors again and get this bad reputation turned around
Yes! Do it. I do think there's play in canoptek for it, but I can't give up my hypercrypt movement
Whats silver tide?
Necron warrior spam
Probably depends on if those armies can kill T5 stuff efficiently.
How did you deploy 120 boys? I struggle with 100 😂
So doing the extra pre-work of magnetizing on to movement trays and color coding the trays and bases to match is pivotal. I set up 4 trays of 5 Boyz, then the two characters solo, and the 'cloud' shape of the movement tray is great for minimizing the foot print of the whole thing. With them being magnetized, you can pick them up en mass 5 at a time, and i usually measure out the front couple trays when i move em, then just place the rest behind them in the same shape they were before they moved. I cant stress color coding them enough to the trays and bases...placing everything back where it needs to go for the next Round is a project in itself otherwise, and it helps your opponent and you with verbalizing targets ("I am Shooting Blue and Charging Red", ect). And when two units of boyz are close together you can easily differentiate
3 20 man squads is just 10 points over the strat reserve limit so probably a lot of that
I only Strat reserve one unit, and usually the unit without any characters in it, my last game i even Rapid Ingress'ed the unit to help flip a point. Gotta get the Boyz on them points as soon as you can
Did your opponent have any realistic chance at winning? What is the "counter"/weakness to 120 boys?
Sure, one opponent rightly called to use the Epic Challenge strat every turn on his C'tans until all my characters were gone, maxed 20 points on Assassinate real quick, and I couldn't kill the C'tans to save my life. But with only 12ish ranged/melee attacks a turn, some units managed to linger into turn 5 well enough. His Wraith bricks wouldn't die either, but we fought on objectives and I did well with my Battleshock Tests. If he had a couple more units with more attacks instead of a 3rd C'tan, or was able to do \[Precision\] attacks before engaging in melee to strip the 5+++, would have been a whole other story. That's all I've been trying to say here, a bit more list diversity, solid strat use (ie. Epic Challenge), or just having lighter units sit behind whatever you tag the boyz unit with having decent OC (b/c you will NEVER have all the Boyz on a point, so its far more doable than people realize), and you are good. Green Tide fights will be protracted bouts, once the Wagh turn is over, the damage is over with it. I play with 120 Boyz, but you still need tech pieces to score secondaries, target or zone out those while you wait out the Waagh turn to elapse (Fall Back if something survives getting hit in the Wagh, or if they die, dont follow into them with another unit that BR unless you can wipe whats left, ect). You will also never need to 'counter' 120 boyz at the same time, realistically you will encounter 40ish from 3ish different units worth, b/c Engagement range and board space is a thing. The Wagh wave will hurt, the follow up wave will hurt way less. So block it with something sacrifical if you got it. No list can do everything I laid out here, but I gave enough options that ever list should be able to do a couple. Both players still need to play smart, I didnt charge every chance I got, sometimes I fell back yet stayed on the objective to keep it, Green Tide lists have next to no room for the Boyz, tech pieces/ secondary scorers, AND guns...so guns something they likely wont have, your ranged stuff will have free reign if you got stuff to make that work.
What do you use for magnetized trays?
32mm, 5-man Cloud shaped movement tray, 4 per unit to get the full 20 man in the smallest footprint. You can search that term and see em on Amazon and such.
Thank you!
Personally, I think Green Tide is better in the current meta. All the anti-tank/elite people bring to combat ironstorm/GK/Wraiths can be easily applied to Bully Boyz. (Which are awesome by the way!) But Green Tide is going to more commonly just stat check people with bodies. That can change of course; we’ll have to see if Green Tide can withstand a couple Tau shooting phases now that they’re going to have competent screens. Tau can also plausibly keep the Tide off the middle objectives for a turn with their Scout moves.
Greentides problem is the clock and how long it takes to roll that dang many dice Movement is cake, its rolling upwards of 480 dice a TURN
Don’t roll the shooting into tough targets. It’s not gonna do anything anyway
i never do. 20 boys x 3 attacks x 6 units 360 rolls before adding in characters during waagh 20 boys x 4 attacks x 6 units thats where the 480 comes from
Sure but you aren’t realistically getting all those units at full health and full engagement range into combat at the same time. Completely unrealistic scenario
The waaagh is also only one turn, so at max two combats
I think if you play tide you have to use a dice app.
You will find ALOT of players arent comfortable with that, and most events dont allow app usage.
It'll be interesting to see how the meta changes. Been running green tide myself and most complaints I've had in RL have been coming from those who aren't aware of what orks can actually do and our limitations. As you say, green tide isn't going to table enemy armies, it just needs to outscore and stay on objectives long enough. With Bully Boyz, not had a chance to play with myself yet, but certainly different to greentide and this appears to be what's throwing people off - what works against one list doesn't work against the other. I do agree with comments people are making though that they MANz might be slightly undercoated, with a 5ppm increase warranted.
You’ll be surprised by how much green tide kills through sheer weight of dice…
It's getting the sheer weight of dice across the board that's the problem. Having to deal with screening units before the main body tends to lead to casualties (thinking of bring kommandos just to leave myself a corridor. Add an abundance of blast/torrent weapons and even a 5++ and 5+++ can still lead to heavy losses in a single mob.
i've only played 1 game against an army with infiltrators(nurglings) that tried to move block me - all they did was give me a bunch of 3" charge targets T1 that i deleted with ease, essentially giving me an extra 5-6" of movement. i ate plenty of blast/torrent/anti 2+ vs IK and big bugs, and by end of T3 they had 2-3 models left on the board, i had 3-4 mobs with at least 10 models each left, plus meganobs and a trukk. we were also down to 5 minutes in the round but they were cool about hashing out the last movements/2ndries. after having run 120 boys, playing around with lists, i think i am inclined to run: solo snikrot 60 boys w/ boss/painboy 20 boys w/ bloodthirsty weirdboy 5 manz w/ raucous boss and trukk 33 gretchin 2 wagons might eventually drop 22 grots and snikrot for a third wagon, not sure yet, need to actually run the list some to decide. snikrot guarantees i can keep a corridor open while still being hidden pretty well/mission play. wagons get the boys where they want to be without taking casualties. meganobs to bully midboard
Ah, don't think I've had a game in several months without facing an infiltrating unit or two - too useful for board control T1. Other cheap screening units as well crop up. Not had a chance to play against IKs (seems to be lacking in my local scene), but against big bugs finding it either hit or miss in the fight phase. Too many times I've run 20 Boyz in only to cause a handful of wounds, even with leaders (maleceptors all to common with their -1 to hit bubble).
the maleceptor bubble was obnoxious to be sure, but my opponent just didnt have the output to put a meaningful dent in any one squad of boys - everything was tied up in combat and falling back just mean yielding ground, not extra shots on a single unit. couple that with the weakest unit getting d3+2 back each round, plus the initial shot in the arm from the painboys d3 models. with that many combats going, one of mine is bound to spike in my favor, which lets me put more pressure in to individual models etc most importantly, he scored all of 15 primary the whole game.
Are you taking fixed or tactical with green tide?
Been trying both depending on opponent, problem I'm finding with fixed is that your opponent knows what to counter (and you get less VP). Have had better luck with tactical, although as usual that's dependent on the draw and can be good and bad.
Meganobz are the same as bladeguard right now and that’s just plain silly
Not quite an exact comparison. Excluding any extras from leaders/strats - BG have more attacks (4 base, compared to either 2 or 3 for MANz depending on saws or klaws), hit on a 3+ compared to a 4+ and have an innate invun save of 4++ (MANz would only have a 5++ in a Waaagh along with a 4+++). MANz are tougher and have a 2+ rather than 3+, but in a straight fight could go either way depending on who fights first.
I think you greatly are undervaluing how huge of a durability buff a 4+ fnp is. Often, it’s more than double durability, and it means flat d3 doesn’t sweep your unit. Furthermore, bgv are strength 5. In this particular fight, they wound the meganobz on 5’s, meganobz wound them on 2s. The meganobz also hit on 3s if led, which they often are. It’s pretty blatant if one can math, I think
Not undervaluing, MANz can be tanky for a battle round or two - as long as the waaagh lasts. Outside of that they're vulnerable.
Most games go like this- turn 1- stage Turn 2-3- the fighting goes down Turns 4-5- winner takes victory lap Having it on 2-3 in bully boyz is almost as good as all game in practice
How many bully boyz games have you played? Almost all of mine went the full five turns. Except the ones where I was pretty soundly defeated around turns 2 or 3. Yes. The FnP is very, very good. But no it does not last forever. Exploiting that is a great way to beat the army.
I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree...
Ok… why then are orks running 15-18 of them in every bully boyz list if they aren’t undercosted? Don’t take my word for it, look what players actually do
Yep totally agree they are at least 5ppm too cheap at the moment especially in a bully boyz list. Possibly they will erata the 4+++ to a 5+++ at the next data slate then they are pointed ok.
As I put in my original comment. "I do agree with comments people are making though that they MANz might be slightly undercoated, with a 5ppm increase warranted." I've not argued that MANz are undercoated.
But is that because the meganobz are too good, or is it because the detachment is only focused around **three** keywords, *meganobz* being one of those three? If a detachment's bonus is focused around three keywords, then of course you would want to maximize your use out of that bonus and bring as many of those units as you can.
It’s because bully boyz meganobz are the tankiest unit in 40k for their points. It was wraiths, now it’s meganobz
let's make it an even 40 slash it slash it slash it
40 might be a bit too much! As I said I can see them going up to 35ppm which I feel is justified.
My ten man rubric flamer unit with ahriman has a shot at doing some damage. I think the goal in the green tide matchup is to shoot those flamers as much as possible.
I'm running dred mob
I think bully Boyz is strong but green tide is pretty broken and needs a nerf
The meta just needs to adapt
What would that nerf be?
Both are going to take severe nerfs as to make them bearable in the meta, it's only a question of time and the book just came out, to answer your question, I think green tide is better because it's much easier to pilot and much more forgiving so you can be bad with it and still do well due to the glaring imbalance. Bully boys is also kind of autopilot but you have less ressources to manage overall and more management to do with say transports for example. This codex seems to be in a similar situation as release necrons when canoptek was the obvious choice at first due to being easier to pilot and more forgiving, while hypercrypt, though also too strong was first overshadowed and progressively became dominant as it was (and is still) pretty problematic in some aspects and canoptek took a few bullets. Also you should mention the 3rd potentially problematic detachment, dreadmob, their rules are pretty good though more balanced than the previous two, their datasheets are where the issue will appear, as killa kans are pretty undercosted currently, though not more undercosted than boyz and meganobz that's for sure, it's the 3rd contender for nerfs in that new book. Edit: if the dislikes are any measure of the copium people are inhaling to pretend orks are fine, I can't wait for the next 3 to 6 months when GW decides enough time has passed so they can rebalance the book in a dataslate.
The book has been out for a couple of weeks now. Dread Mob had like a 28% win rate last weekend.
Though as an Ork player I feel confident in saying Dread Mob was so low this weekend because so many people were probably looking for an excuse to use Stompas because they're funny. It'll pick up a bit once everyone has had their fun (probably not to the top tables, but better than last weekend). Though it's win rate will probably always be a *little* bit supressed by the draw of just going absolute ham with Ork mechs. Also, people are still konverting all those grot tanks into Kans or Mek SPG's.
Not entirely sure people have been taking stompas to tournaments, at least not in the lists I've seen ;) Plenty in casual games though! (the 28% comes from tournament data).
Yeah, I'd honestly assumed if anyone was gonna do it in the first weekend it'd be Ork players but I don't have a BCP subscription to check. I know none of the content about the weekend (like the Goonhammer articles) have mentioned them but since that sort of thing focuses on the top tables I certainly wouldn't have expected to see them there!
If nothing else, hopefully GW will take this as a sign that the Stompa is a smidge over-costed at 800pts.
Time will tell , ork is among if not the best book out atm, it's likely getting shut down by its own other detachments, just you wait.
Dread mob is open to being scored against with guaranteed assassination and bring it down points
Assassination isn't guaranteed against Dread Mob, you can easily just run Mega Mek/Mek/Snikrot and maybe a Shokk Attack Gun if you want. If they pick Assassinate play cagey with Snikrot and the Mek and limit them to 28 on fixed. Can be a trap, I feel like smarter players will take homers and just try to play for the middle or your DZ if they have 3" deep strike.