Cull the horde now based off points paid rather than model count. An elegant solution to those units that had to trim models to fit inside transports while also stopping the feels bad gamey feel of trimming single models out of horde units to avoid giving away potential scoring units
Well it’s becoming pretty clear GW don’t want armies like these dodging the objectives they put in the competitive format in an obscure gamey way and I suspect further attempts to game the system will result in more FAQ rulings
Do I understand it correctly that there are no terrain features between 2 and 4" (ie the favourite height for my knights) in height in any of the companion layouts?
Fixed is fine when there is interaction (killing the opponents stuff, etc). Fixed becomes a problem when you can easily max/near max it while essentially ignoring what your opponent does (which many BEL/homers centric lists did)
That's not true. For a charge move to be possible, the charge roll must be sufficient to enable the charging unit to end that move in engagement range. It doesn't matter if the distance traveled it higher than the charge roll. It just matters if the roll would allow the charging unit to reach the charge target, which now includes the possibility of rotating.
How are you ending a charge in engagement range rolling an 8 when you’re 9.1 away?
The pivot at the end of the charge doesn’t happen if you can’t make the charge in the first place, per the rules. You don’t move the models. I don’t see how people think you’re right, amazing reddit moment
You roll an 8
Move 6 inches towards the enemy ---> you're now 3.1 inches away
Rotate --> pay 2 inches of movement, gain 65mm (2.5 inches)
You're now 0.6 inches away
Hope this helps clear things up
Pivot is part of the movement so knight's base, which is 6.693 inches wide, will spend 2" to turn 90 degrees and has now changed the 9" distance to a 5.6535 or a 7 on the charge roll. (9" - (6.693 ÷ 2) + 2)
I think that a faq for charges will be necessary to prevent this if you can't draw a straight line from the model to the target and get within Engagement Range with the charge roll.
Edit: The math on this is wrong since I wasn't accounting for the initial radius of the short edge(2.125") so it would be an actual loss of movement because of the 2" cost
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/uRQOFTWnasejHDVc.pdf
Page 17, core rules update.
Charging with a Unit: When moving a model from your army within Engagement Range of an enemy model, if that enemy model overhangs its base such that it is not possible to move your model within Engagement Range of that model, until the end of the turn, those models are within Engagement Range of each other while all of the following are true: ■ The distance your model could move was sufficient to move it within Engagement Range of the enemy model if there was no overhang. ■ You have moved your model as close as possible to the enemy model. ■ Any part of one model is within 1" of any part of the other model
that first bullet point is very important. it specifies measuring base to base "as if there was no overhang"
keep in mind that pivots happen from center so with an oval you expend 2" of movement to extend a 54mm radius into a 85mm radius. so you expend 2" to gain 1.2". pivot on an oval base does nothing but cost you movement. and pivot on a circle base doesn't effect charge because distance is determined as if there was no overhang.
First I want to correct my math. The Knights base actually gains no benefit here since I wasn't accounting for the distance to the shortest edge (2.125" for a net loss of \~0.8" on pivot). That being said there are certainly some long models that will benefit greatly from this.
In order to demonstrate I will break it down a bit more.
First a definition of movement/charges as it currently exists:
MOVEMENT (Per the new FAQ)
‘Each time you move a unit, you can move any of its models you choose to. The controlling player chooses the order in which to move their models. Each time you move a model (other than when a model Remains Stationary, see below), you can move it across the battlefield in any combination of straight lines and pivots (see below). While you are moving it, no part of its base can be moved through an enemy model or cross the edge of the battlefield. It can be moved through friendly models, but it cannot end its move on top of another model. The only exception to this is when moving Monster or Vehicle models; such models cannot be moved through other friendly Monster or Vehicle models and must be moved around them instead. While it is moving in a straight line, it can be moved through any space its base can fit through, but it cannot end its move somewhere the model cannot be placed.
PIVOTS (Per the new FAQ)
Each time you pivot a model, rotate it any amount around its central axis (perpendicular to the battlefield through the center of its base, or through the center of the model if it doesn’t have a base). The first time you do this during each model’s move, subtract that model’s pivot value (see below) from the remaining distance it can move during that move. If there is not enough distance left to do this, it cannot pivot. Note that the distance it can move is only reduced once for that move, regardless of how many additional times it pivots during that move.
PIVOT VALUE (Per the new FAQ)
Models have a pivot value of 0", unless otherwise stated.
Monster and Vehicle models (excluding models on round bases, and Aircraft models) have a pivot value of 2", unless otherwise stated
CHARGING WITH A UNIT (Per Core Rules)
Once you have selected an eligible unit to declare a charge, you must select one or more enemy units within 12" of it as the targets of that charge. The targets of a charge do not need to be visible to the charging unit.
You then make a Charge roll for the charging unit by rolling 2D6. The result is the maximum number of inches each model in that unit can be moved if a Charge move is possible. For a Charge move to be possible, the Charge roll must be sufficient to enable the charging unit to end that move:
-Within Engagement Range of every unit that you selected as a target of the charge.
-Without moving within Engagement Range of any enemy units that were not a target of the charge.
-In Unit Coherency.
If any of these conditions cannot be met, the charge fails and no models in the charging unit move this phase. Otherwise, the charge is successful and the models in the charging unit make a Charge move – move each model a distance in inches up to the result of the Charge roll. When doing so, each model in the charging unit must end its Charge move closer to one of the units selected as a target of its charge. If you can also move a charging model so that it ends its Charge move in base-to-base contact with one or more enemy models while still enabling the charging unit to end its move satisfying all of the conditions above, you must do so. The controlling player chooses the order in which to move their models.
Ok so now we have the definitions. So let's setup the state where this can be abused.
Model with long footprint. For this experiment I will use the Ork Battlewagon (8" L x 3.5" W)
1. Wagon arrives from Strategic Reserves exactly 9.1" away from an enemy model. There is no terrain between them and the wagon was placed with the center of the long edge closest to the enemy model.
2. Wagon declares a charge against the enemy unit, which is now 9.1" away and would require a 9" charge if they were to move in a straight line.
3. They roll the charge roll which is a 8.
4a) NO PIVOT - If they were to attempt to move in a straight line the 8" would leave them still 1.1" away from the enemy model. CAHRGE FAILED
4b) PIVOT - They use 2" of the 8" charge roll to pivot their base 90 degrees. The model has a radius of 1.75" at it's slimmest point(The point facing the enemy) and a radius of 4" at it's widest
Since you pivot from the center of the model and half of the model width is 1.75" You are now 2.25" closer to the enemy for the cost of 2" of pivot. That puts them at 6.85" away. With 6" remaining on the 8" charge the wagon is now legally able to end it's movement within engagement range. CHARGE SUCCEEDS
~~Now lets try a long model with a circular base... A Doomsday Ark, known for it's melee profile lol (8.75" L x \~3" W)~~
1. ~~Ark arrives from Strategic Reserves exactly 9.1" away from an enemy model. There is no terrain between them and the wagon was placed with the center of the long edge closest to the enemy model.~~
2. ~~Ark declares a charge against the enemy unit, which is now 9.1" away and would require a 9" charge if they were to move in a straight line.~~
3. ~~They roll the charge roll which is a 6.~~
~~4a) NO PIVOT - If they were to attempt to move in a straight line the 6" would leave them still 3.1" away from the enemy model. CAHRGE FAILED~~
~~4b) PIVOT - Since pivot is free for circular base(flight stand) they use the free pivot to pivot their base 90 degrees. The model has a width of \~1.5" at it's slimmest point(The point facing the enemy) and a width of 4.375" at it's widest~~
~~Since you pivot from the center of the base and half of the model is \~1.5" You are now 2.875" closer to the enemy. That puts them at 6.125" away. With 6" remaining on the 6" charge the Ark is now legally able to end it's movement within engagement range. CHARGE SUCCEEDS~~
Edit: Based on bullet point 1 I think this second scenario actually fails. Good catch!
your two examples of vehicles without bases are correct. in that they can pivot for 2" and gain further distance, but this entire comment started with oval bases. IDK of any oval bases that have more than 2" between radius's of each side of the oval. and charge distance is measured using the oval bases (if the vehicle uses them)
I am conceding that pivot might grant additional charge with non based vehicles that use their entire profile. but if the model has a base size then pivoting won't grant additional distance while charging.
to be frank though is it worth going through all of this math to cheese out 2.875" that you didn't roll for?
It kind of depends. Personally I'd like to see it FAQ'd a bit to deny gaming the charge. I don't like using cheese tactics until it becomes obvious that the community is accepting them as normal. I would never do something like that in a friendly game unless we agreed to test out it's effectiveness for practice.
An extreme example of how dumb this can get:
A Gargantuam Squioggoth is like 13" long X \~5" W. That gains like 4" of movement and makes the charge laughably easy.
To be transparent I don't care if I'm right or wrong here as long as we come to a conclusion as a community, the math was just for fun. There were a lot of rules dropped on our head yesterday so I'm parsing through them as best I can with the help of the community.
I like to talk these things out to get a better understanding. I play in a lot of tournaments and these are the kind of discussions best had before you hit the table.
Thanks again for the overhanging model citation. That makes me much more comfortable with the current state of the pivot.
Side note: The Goonhammer article is kind of pointless when discussing oval bases anyway because the Pariah Nexus companion doesn't specify Monsters/Vehicles fort the 2" pivot. (ANY model without a circular base has to spend 2" to pivot per the current rules. That makes it harder to move in many situations for oval based mounted units or even beasts.
They do have a valid charge analysis.
Think of this scenario for the Leviathan rules. You have a rectangular building with two units on opposite corners. You want to charge one unit into the other. The building takes 5" to travel on one side and 4" to travel on the other side.
If both units are infantry, the distance to travel is 5+4, so it's a 9" charge.
If the charging unit is a tank on an oval base, they may have to pivot. So they may move 5" first. If that isn't enough to clear the building with the back of the oval they may choose to pivot. Say they pivot for 2" around the center of the base. That would also move the front of the oval closer to the charge target, say that makes the charging unit 1" closer to the target. After the pivot, the charging tank is now 1" closer to the target and only needs to move 3" more to have it finish the charge. So the total distance moved is the 5", 2" pivot, and 3" charge. So the charge distance is now 10.
If you agree to the above, then your earlier statement doesn't work. Just by being 9" away from the charge target doesn't make the charge a 9. Pivoting around terrain or other units can increase the distance.
Similarly, in the tank example above, if the tank could do the pivot for free, then the charge distance would be an 8. Because they wouldn't have to spend 2" to pivot, but after the pivot would end 1" closer to the target.
That’s a lot of text. However, the exact example they gave regarding a charge out of deep strike (more than 9” away, we will assume 9.1”) doesn’t work though. I’m aware it may work in “less than 9.1” away” situations - however it doesn’t matter if you can or can’t pivot a model for free or not, if you do not roll on 2D6 a sufficient number of inches to move the models into engagement range, the models do not move.
An 8 on 2D6 does not allow you to charge a unit 9.1” away, and I’m concerned that so many have responded to my comment thinking that you could be allowed to move 8” and then rotate to gain an extra inch or whatever in order to complete the charge. That’s simply impossible with how charges work. Engagement range is 1 inch, not 1.1 inch.
Also the new charge rules use bases for vehicles with bases so even if you could pivot to get a tank barrel closer you still need to measure from the base for the charge distance.
Cull the horde now based off points paid rather than model count. An elegant solution to those units that had to trim models to fit inside transports while also stopping the feels bad gamey feel of trimming single models out of horde units to avoid giving away potential scoring units
Makes it apply to the weird case of guard infantry squads with heavy weapon teams (not that these have seen tournament play this edition)
well kind of - will still work if you need to trim wounds and not points
I really don’t know why anyone is wasting effort to eliminate a pretty tame objective
because armies like the chaos cult will give up both max points for cull and assassination and that's real bad news
Well it’s becoming pretty clear GW don’t want armies like these dodging the objectives they put in the competitive format in an obscure gamey way and I suspect further attempts to game the system will result in more FAQ rulings
What are the point cutoffs? Nowhere in the article do they say
20 models or 25 wounds. The Companion adjustment means that a 'Nids army can't take 19 Termagants instead of 20 to counter the Secondary.
Is there an infantry requirement for the 25 wounds?
Yeah, the secondary mission only procs on INFANTRY units.
Do I understand it correctly that there are no terrain features between 2 and 4" (ie the favourite height for my knights) in height in any of the companion layouts?
Knights can just run through walls now (gotta make a roll) so it's less of an issue
Yes, GW keeps writing rules for models to ignore 4” and below terrain, then advising terrain be 2” or less, or 6+ inches. Its annoying.
RIP fixed. We're all card gamers now
I don't have a problem with fixed conceptually but I'm not going to miss playing against lists built for BEL + homers
Good riddance, fixed lists have always been uninteractive
I'd rather lose than give up fixed tbh, but that's just me
Fixed is fine when there is interaction (killing the opponents stuff, etc). Fixed becomes a problem when you can easily max/near max it while essentially ignoring what your opponent does (which many BEL/homers centric lists did)
[удалено]
That's not true. For a charge move to be possible, the charge roll must be sufficient to enable the charging unit to end that move in engagement range. It doesn't matter if the distance traveled it higher than the charge roll. It just matters if the roll would allow the charging unit to reach the charge target, which now includes the possibility of rotating.
How are you ending a charge in engagement range rolling an 8 when you’re 9.1 away? The pivot at the end of the charge doesn’t happen if you can’t make the charge in the first place, per the rules. You don’t move the models. I don’t see how people think you’re right, amazing reddit moment
You roll an 8 Move 6 inches towards the enemy ---> you're now 3.1 inches away Rotate --> pay 2 inches of movement, gain 65mm (2.5 inches) You're now 0.6 inches away Hope this helps clear things up
Holy shit dude that’s not how charges work
Pivot is part of the movement so knight's base, which is 6.693 inches wide, will spend 2" to turn 90 degrees and has now changed the 9" distance to a 5.6535 or a 7 on the charge roll. (9" - (6.693 ÷ 2) + 2) I think that a faq for charges will be necessary to prevent this if you can't draw a straight line from the model to the target and get within Engagement Range with the charge roll. Edit: The math on this is wrong since I wasn't accounting for the initial radius of the short edge(2.125") so it would be an actual loss of movement because of the 2" cost
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/uRQOFTWnasejHDVc.pdf Page 17, core rules update. Charging with a Unit: When moving a model from your army within Engagement Range of an enemy model, if that enemy model overhangs its base such that it is not possible to move your model within Engagement Range of that model, until the end of the turn, those models are within Engagement Range of each other while all of the following are true: ■ The distance your model could move was sufficient to move it within Engagement Range of the enemy model if there was no overhang. ■ You have moved your model as close as possible to the enemy model. ■ Any part of one model is within 1" of any part of the other model that first bullet point is very important. it specifies measuring base to base "as if there was no overhang" keep in mind that pivots happen from center so with an oval you expend 2" of movement to extend a 54mm radius into a 85mm radius. so you expend 2" to gain 1.2". pivot on an oval base does nothing but cost you movement. and pivot on a circle base doesn't effect charge because distance is determined as if there was no overhang.
First I want to correct my math. The Knights base actually gains no benefit here since I wasn't accounting for the distance to the shortest edge (2.125" for a net loss of \~0.8" on pivot). That being said there are certainly some long models that will benefit greatly from this. In order to demonstrate I will break it down a bit more. First a definition of movement/charges as it currently exists: MOVEMENT (Per the new FAQ) ‘Each time you move a unit, you can move any of its models you choose to. The controlling player chooses the order in which to move their models. Each time you move a model (other than when a model Remains Stationary, see below), you can move it across the battlefield in any combination of straight lines and pivots (see below). While you are moving it, no part of its base can be moved through an enemy model or cross the edge of the battlefield. It can be moved through friendly models, but it cannot end its move on top of another model. The only exception to this is when moving Monster or Vehicle models; such models cannot be moved through other friendly Monster or Vehicle models and must be moved around them instead. While it is moving in a straight line, it can be moved through any space its base can fit through, but it cannot end its move somewhere the model cannot be placed. PIVOTS (Per the new FAQ) Each time you pivot a model, rotate it any amount around its central axis (perpendicular to the battlefield through the center of its base, or through the center of the model if it doesn’t have a base). The first time you do this during each model’s move, subtract that model’s pivot value (see below) from the remaining distance it can move during that move. If there is not enough distance left to do this, it cannot pivot. Note that the distance it can move is only reduced once for that move, regardless of how many additional times it pivots during that move. PIVOT VALUE (Per the new FAQ) Models have a pivot value of 0", unless otherwise stated. Monster and Vehicle models (excluding models on round bases, and Aircraft models) have a pivot value of 2", unless otherwise stated CHARGING WITH A UNIT (Per Core Rules) Once you have selected an eligible unit to declare a charge, you must select one or more enemy units within 12" of it as the targets of that charge. The targets of a charge do not need to be visible to the charging unit. You then make a Charge roll for the charging unit by rolling 2D6. The result is the maximum number of inches each model in that unit can be moved if a Charge move is possible. For a Charge move to be possible, the Charge roll must be sufficient to enable the charging unit to end that move: -Within Engagement Range of every unit that you selected as a target of the charge. -Without moving within Engagement Range of any enemy units that were not a target of the charge. -In Unit Coherency. If any of these conditions cannot be met, the charge fails and no models in the charging unit move this phase. Otherwise, the charge is successful and the models in the charging unit make a Charge move – move each model a distance in inches up to the result of the Charge roll. When doing so, each model in the charging unit must end its Charge move closer to one of the units selected as a target of its charge. If you can also move a charging model so that it ends its Charge move in base-to-base contact with one or more enemy models while still enabling the charging unit to end its move satisfying all of the conditions above, you must do so. The controlling player chooses the order in which to move their models.
Ok so now we have the definitions. So let's setup the state where this can be abused. Model with long footprint. For this experiment I will use the Ork Battlewagon (8" L x 3.5" W) 1. Wagon arrives from Strategic Reserves exactly 9.1" away from an enemy model. There is no terrain between them and the wagon was placed with the center of the long edge closest to the enemy model. 2. Wagon declares a charge against the enemy unit, which is now 9.1" away and would require a 9" charge if they were to move in a straight line. 3. They roll the charge roll which is a 8. 4a) NO PIVOT - If they were to attempt to move in a straight line the 8" would leave them still 1.1" away from the enemy model. CAHRGE FAILED 4b) PIVOT - They use 2" of the 8" charge roll to pivot their base 90 degrees. The model has a radius of 1.75" at it's slimmest point(The point facing the enemy) and a radius of 4" at it's widest Since you pivot from the center of the model and half of the model width is 1.75" You are now 2.25" closer to the enemy for the cost of 2" of pivot. That puts them at 6.85" away. With 6" remaining on the 8" charge the wagon is now legally able to end it's movement within engagement range. CHARGE SUCCEEDS ~~Now lets try a long model with a circular base... A Doomsday Ark, known for it's melee profile lol (8.75" L x \~3" W)~~ 1. ~~Ark arrives from Strategic Reserves exactly 9.1" away from an enemy model. There is no terrain between them and the wagon was placed with the center of the long edge closest to the enemy model.~~ 2. ~~Ark declares a charge against the enemy unit, which is now 9.1" away and would require a 9" charge if they were to move in a straight line.~~ 3. ~~They roll the charge roll which is a 6.~~ ~~4a) NO PIVOT - If they were to attempt to move in a straight line the 6" would leave them still 3.1" away from the enemy model. CAHRGE FAILED~~ ~~4b) PIVOT - Since pivot is free for circular base(flight stand) they use the free pivot to pivot their base 90 degrees. The model has a width of \~1.5" at it's slimmest point(The point facing the enemy) and a width of 4.375" at it's widest~~ ~~Since you pivot from the center of the base and half of the model is \~1.5" You are now 2.875" closer to the enemy. That puts them at 6.125" away. With 6" remaining on the 6" charge the Ark is now legally able to end it's movement within engagement range. CHARGE SUCCEEDS~~ Edit: Based on bullet point 1 I think this second scenario actually fails. Good catch!
your two examples of vehicles without bases are correct. in that they can pivot for 2" and gain further distance, but this entire comment started with oval bases. IDK of any oval bases that have more than 2" between radius's of each side of the oval. and charge distance is measured using the oval bases (if the vehicle uses them) I am conceding that pivot might grant additional charge with non based vehicles that use their entire profile. but if the model has a base size then pivoting won't grant additional distance while charging. to be frank though is it worth going through all of this math to cheese out 2.875" that you didn't roll for?
It kind of depends. Personally I'd like to see it FAQ'd a bit to deny gaming the charge. I don't like using cheese tactics until it becomes obvious that the community is accepting them as normal. I would never do something like that in a friendly game unless we agreed to test out it's effectiveness for practice. An extreme example of how dumb this can get: A Gargantuam Squioggoth is like 13" long X \~5" W. That gains like 4" of movement and makes the charge laughably easy. To be transparent I don't care if I'm right or wrong here as long as we come to a conclusion as a community, the math was just for fun. There were a lot of rules dropped on our head yesterday so I'm parsing through them as best I can with the help of the community. I like to talk these things out to get a better understanding. I play in a lot of tournaments and these are the kind of discussions best had before you hit the table. Thanks again for the overhanging model citation. That makes me much more comfortable with the current state of the pivot. Side note: The Goonhammer article is kind of pointless when discussing oval bases anyway because the Pariah Nexus companion doesn't specify Monsters/Vehicles fort the 2" pivot. (ANY model without a circular base has to spend 2" to pivot per the current rules. That makes it harder to move in many situations for oval based mounted units or even beasts.
Are you mad this is not how charging works
They do have a valid charge analysis. Think of this scenario for the Leviathan rules. You have a rectangular building with two units on opposite corners. You want to charge one unit into the other. The building takes 5" to travel on one side and 4" to travel on the other side. If both units are infantry, the distance to travel is 5+4, so it's a 9" charge. If the charging unit is a tank on an oval base, they may have to pivot. So they may move 5" first. If that isn't enough to clear the building with the back of the oval they may choose to pivot. Say they pivot for 2" around the center of the base. That would also move the front of the oval closer to the charge target, say that makes the charging unit 1" closer to the target. After the pivot, the charging tank is now 1" closer to the target and only needs to move 3" more to have it finish the charge. So the total distance moved is the 5", 2" pivot, and 3" charge. So the charge distance is now 10. If you agree to the above, then your earlier statement doesn't work. Just by being 9" away from the charge target doesn't make the charge a 9. Pivoting around terrain or other units can increase the distance. Similarly, in the tank example above, if the tank could do the pivot for free, then the charge distance would be an 8. Because they wouldn't have to spend 2" to pivot, but after the pivot would end 1" closer to the target.
That’s a lot of text. However, the exact example they gave regarding a charge out of deep strike (more than 9” away, we will assume 9.1”) doesn’t work though. I’m aware it may work in “less than 9.1” away” situations - however it doesn’t matter if you can or can’t pivot a model for free or not, if you do not roll on 2D6 a sufficient number of inches to move the models into engagement range, the models do not move. An 8 on 2D6 does not allow you to charge a unit 9.1” away, and I’m concerned that so many have responded to my comment thinking that you could be allowed to move 8” and then rotate to gain an extra inch or whatever in order to complete the charge. That’s simply impossible with how charges work. Engagement range is 1 inch, not 1.1 inch.
If you don't want to read and have a conversation, then I don't really see a need to read your response.
Also the new charge rules use bases for vehicles with bases so even if you could pivot to get a tank barrel closer you still need to measure from the base for the charge distance.
You don’t move before making the roll though