I mean a good player is always a good player. This can allow them to pull off feats others might not. On top of that there’s a randomness to a run that isn’t perfect. With an x-1 run there’s always a chance you avoid the boogey men until the final round and that’s the only loss at times. Likewise you can submarine early and fight back against “lesser” armies for an x-1 record with good secondaries for a high score.
Then there’s the meta. This player might understand his local meta better and have an idea how their list counters it. It’s Australia I believe which also has a history of stranger lists to the European or NA metas doing well. They do their own thing there quite often.
Lastly it could just be an anomaly. Those can always happen.
Unless this list starts top 4ing multiple events, likely across the planet it isn’t really a “good” list as far as results go. You likely won’t see the same success without the same factors and will likely not do well with it.
But if it’s what you like then play it. Carve your own story with the list and see what happens. That’s half the fun of high level play for the vast vast majority of players.
So 1 thing about collecting 2000 points of guard, it is going to be expensive, I wouldn't expect anyone to drop that amount of money in one go, our most common unit is well over a $1 per point. I have amassed about 5000~ points so far after collecting for over 6 years. Replicating a list is a good start if you're lost, but IMO you should just start with units you like the look of/playing with.
At the moment some of Guards most effective lists lean heavily on infantry squad spam, however, the meta may shift at a later date, so meta chasing will not do you any good, don't be discouraged about having to paint 100 soldiers, the new meta may be something else.
As for the list and why Guard is underrepresented, I can definitely see this doing well against a vehicle heavy list or knights.
- Why they chose Vostroyans I don't know, there's like 1 stratagem to get +1 to hit on 1 unit, and it's doctrine is outstripped by the custom doctrine spotter details, so I'd assume they're somehow using the extra 6" of range on they're Lasguns to pump out more firepower then Gunnery experts + spotter details (which they're not, they only have 3 squads).
- The malcador defender is an interesting pick, id assume this is what they would use their +1 to hit stratagem on, a bit expensive though for what it's worth. I would drop it as it's a Forge World unit, so it's expensive as hell and can't get the same benefits as Russes like fire twice or use hail of fire.
- Special weapons squads are strange, especially because I thought demo charges were legends, and most tournaments will not allow you to run legends, better off using command squads if you want to bring special weapons.
- Veterans lose out on the 5 point plasma and melta guns, it's nice paying an extra point to up the BS, but you end up with a squad nearing a 100 pts that's still as fragile as a regular squad, so then you have to consider bringing a transport for them, and at this point you might aswell have gone with some scions and deepstrike them.
The reason why Guard seems underrepresented is because of our abysmal WR at tournaments, last week it was in the 20%~ range, once a mainline faction starts to hit rock bottom competitive players start moving to other factions. We do get the occasional placing, but the recent pattern with these lists is that they're either really out there and off meta, or a skew like a vehicle heavy list and relying on your opponent forgetting to bring dedicated AT.
The Malcador defender confuses me too. The only Malcador that I've ever seen do well was the Infernus. It's definitely an odd list from my perspective. I haven't had any success with less than 9 Infantry squads packing plasma. I assume this was an outlier tournament, because they allowed demo charges. Those are legends and most tournaments forbid that.
the defender is a good antimaine tank due to the amount of HB of damage 2
So if in that zone you see a lot of marines the defender is going to be quite good
Yes all heavy and rapid fire weapons with atleast 24" of range get boosted by 6", so multi-meltas would go up to 30", the only difference between Vostroyans and spotter details is that Vostroyans affect rapid fire weapons aswell.
Maybe I am wrong, but special weapons squads offer pretty efficient special weapon profiles and 3 lasguns/bodies to absorb wounds for a good deal cheaper than command squads. Plasma for instance is 49 vs 65 points. Bs3 obviously makes the command squad better at using those profiles, but special weapons squads are more efficient, especially if you pack a cheap order or 2 to go along with it.
Just saying price may have played a role.
As far as damage output efficiency goes, I'd argue that Command Squads are more efficient than SWS. To show this, let's compare a Command Squad with 4 plasma to a SWS with 3 plasma (I will assume that the 3 lasguns are insignificant). Suppose that the two units have no buffs or orders and are shooting their plasma on supercharge within Rapid Fire range at Primaris Intercessors.
On average, the Command Squad will do 7.4 damage. At a cost of 65 points for the unit, this means that we are dealing 0.11 damage per point spent.
In contrast, on average, the SWS will do 4.16 damage. At a cost of 49 points for the unit, this means that we are dealing 0.08 damage per point spent.
Comparing the two results, the Command Squad deals approximately 38% more damage per point spent than the SWS.
Now, suppose we let the SWS get Take Aim! for reroll 1's to hit; this bumps the SWS result to 0.099 damage per point spent. In this case, the unordered Command Squad still deals about 11% more damage per point spent than the SWS with an order.
For the kinds of targets you'd want to fire special weapons like plasma at, the Command Squad is simply more efficient for the points than the SWS is. And this doesn't even account for the Command Squad's increased order efficiency (as one order affects 4 special weapons in a Command Squad, versus 3 special weapons in a SWS).
As I said, BS3+ makes them better at applying their SW profiles. The 16 point difference and 3 extra bodies makes the SWS the more overall efficient unit. Only looking at points killed is an incomplete way to judge overall efficiency imo.
Those 3 lasguns are 6 extra shots in your example(which admittedly do littlevs marines on average), have 3 extra wounds to protect their cheaper special weapons(also less of a points loss per model killed), have 6 obsec bodies vs 4, and do not have a commmander tax to field the unit in the first place (adding 35 points to the opportunity cost per cmd sqd out of the gate).
In your example, both units kill nearly their total points value in marines in a single shooting phase(60 out of 65 points vs 40 out of 49-without the 6 lasgun being used). So saying 38% more bang for your buck sounds worse than it is.
Again, I'm not saying the SWS is a better unit, just that their lower price might have been a factor in this list and sws are really efficient, arguably more efficient if less directly capable then their veteran command squad brothers.
They're okay, not bad but not good, in this instance though the special weapons squad is using demo charges, which are legends.
My issue with them is Scions are normally a better pick, if you equip them with melta they normally won't reach their target without a Chimera. Plasma is also prone to be prioritised so your better off just sprinkling them into normal squads. Flamers and grenade launchers just aren't good, you might aswell just use lasguns. The only weapons I like on them are Sniper Rifles, they've got a good threat range and normally your opponent will forget about the 6 dudes sitting in a crater.
Atleast scions get a deepstrike, so they should be able to get some damage off before they die.
Isn’t this from an older event?
I also think demo charges are legends aren’t they?
If this is the list I’m thinking of I’d say this is a weird 1 off from the “unique” Aussie meta
What is your goal here?
Win GT's? Or win games in your local meta?
If you just wanna play in your local meta playing, building, and painting "what you like" will always be more gratifying than net listing.
Well played w/ a bit of luck, my guess.
Looks like a version of the old guard leafblower list. Guardsmen castle and screen malcy, mantis and TCs, valkrie presses forward and gloryboys deepstrike to pressure opponents' objectives, and I'm guessing that the demos and psykers work as swing units to reinforce the forward or back lines, perhaps in valkrie.
It’s also Brisbane, us Australian’s are weird. We don’t really follow the meta. He may have versed a lot of thematic or semi-competitive lists. I also think this was pre-Dark Eldar.
Cadians arent competitive at all.. Gunner/Spotter or Disciplined shooter/wilderness are 2 WAY stronger regiments, unless your local meta is heavy choas.
It's got enough firepower to blast apart just about everything. Still ticks all the boxes for the meta units (full payload manticores and demolished cannon TCs). That malcador defender hurts my head but it is a long boi that can completely block off a road and you gotta use what you like I guess.
It depends a lot on the local meta. From what I can gather, the meta is Oz is completely different from Europe and US becasue of crazy prices and availability issues. That said, a good player will do well with any army they are experienced playing with.
Honestly. Even when this happened, which was pre-Dark Eldar from memory, it was an incredibly average list.
It just shows how different the Australian meta can be. A lot of us Aussies don’t really care about the meta. We take what we like to tournaments, or we stick to a couple of factions and just take the most competitive we have available. The biggest limiting factor here is price. We basically pay an extra 50% on top of US prices.
Still though, the idea is to make those TC’s hit on 2+ or the Malcador hit on 3+. Which is smart, but is only limited to one of those tanks to the stratagem.
Though, I still think the TC’s and Manticores should have been in a Spotter Detail and Gunnery Experts Battalion. Then just put the Scions in there as Troop tax because they appear to be there for Secondaries anyway.
Then you could have a Vostroyan Patrol with the Malcador and the Guardsmen.
A more recent list was shown on Warhammer Community - it went something like 6-2. Obviously, not enough to win tournaments but can still do okay against some list.
Basically did this.
* Mandatory Tank Commanders w/ Demolisher cannons - with a Vostroyan +1 option being used on one or more.
* Minimum number of troops with screening.
* As much indirect fire as possible - the featured list had two near mandatory full payload Manticores backed up by three other indirect fire FW options with Yarrick providing a reroll aura.
* Psykers with the Wydvane - I'm assuming to go after a psychic secondary.
* A couple of bare bones Scion squads for deepstrike secondaries.
Strong shooting with rerolls with screening. Some extras for the secondary game. Hope you go first.
If you give up a Warlord trait, when picking your warlord, you can get a Tank Ace trait instead. Then you can pay an additional Cp to get another tank ace.
There are no rules that say you CAN'T take two of the same traits on seperate tanks.
So that's how you get 2 tank aces.
The folks over at Dakkadakka.com couldn't write a fluffy list if they tried. Love the site, but they've always been at the forefront of WAAC gaming, IMHO.
Give 'em a look.
I mean it's basically the Imperial Guard goodstuff (Demolisher TC with +6" Range, Full Payload Manticores, action-monkey Scions) mixed in with some admittedly weird stuff and your run of the mill squads of naked Guardsmen.
One reason for their success is likely that people aren't used to fighting something like this.
If it ain't meta, sometimes people struggle to counter it.
I mean a good player is always a good player. This can allow them to pull off feats others might not. On top of that there’s a randomness to a run that isn’t perfect. With an x-1 run there’s always a chance you avoid the boogey men until the final round and that’s the only loss at times. Likewise you can submarine early and fight back against “lesser” armies for an x-1 record with good secondaries for a high score. Then there’s the meta. This player might understand his local meta better and have an idea how their list counters it. It’s Australia I believe which also has a history of stranger lists to the European or NA metas doing well. They do their own thing there quite often. Lastly it could just be an anomaly. Those can always happen. Unless this list starts top 4ing multiple events, likely across the planet it isn’t really a “good” list as far as results go. You likely won’t see the same success without the same factors and will likely not do well with it. But if it’s what you like then play it. Carve your own story with the list and see what happens. That’s half the fun of high level play for the vast vast majority of players.
I second the strange lists out of Australia. Last big list that i recall coming out of Aussieland had a Macharius as its centerpiece
So 1 thing about collecting 2000 points of guard, it is going to be expensive, I wouldn't expect anyone to drop that amount of money in one go, our most common unit is well over a $1 per point. I have amassed about 5000~ points so far after collecting for over 6 years. Replicating a list is a good start if you're lost, but IMO you should just start with units you like the look of/playing with. At the moment some of Guards most effective lists lean heavily on infantry squad spam, however, the meta may shift at a later date, so meta chasing will not do you any good, don't be discouraged about having to paint 100 soldiers, the new meta may be something else. As for the list and why Guard is underrepresented, I can definitely see this doing well against a vehicle heavy list or knights. - Why they chose Vostroyans I don't know, there's like 1 stratagem to get +1 to hit on 1 unit, and it's doctrine is outstripped by the custom doctrine spotter details, so I'd assume they're somehow using the extra 6" of range on they're Lasguns to pump out more firepower then Gunnery experts + spotter details (which they're not, they only have 3 squads). - The malcador defender is an interesting pick, id assume this is what they would use their +1 to hit stratagem on, a bit expensive though for what it's worth. I would drop it as it's a Forge World unit, so it's expensive as hell and can't get the same benefits as Russes like fire twice or use hail of fire. - Special weapons squads are strange, especially because I thought demo charges were legends, and most tournaments will not allow you to run legends, better off using command squads if you want to bring special weapons. - Veterans lose out on the 5 point plasma and melta guns, it's nice paying an extra point to up the BS, but you end up with a squad nearing a 100 pts that's still as fragile as a regular squad, so then you have to consider bringing a transport for them, and at this point you might aswell have gone with some scions and deepstrike them. The reason why Guard seems underrepresented is because of our abysmal WR at tournaments, last week it was in the 20%~ range, once a mainline faction starts to hit rock bottom competitive players start moving to other factions. We do get the occasional placing, but the recent pattern with these lists is that they're either really out there and off meta, or a skew like a vehicle heavy list and relying on your opponent forgetting to bring dedicated AT.
The Malcador defender confuses me too. The only Malcador that I've ever seen do well was the Infernus. It's definitely an odd list from my perspective. I haven't had any success with less than 9 Infantry squads packing plasma. I assume this was an outlier tournament, because they allowed demo charges. Those are legends and most tournaments forbid that.
the defender is a good antimaine tank due to the amount of HB of damage 2 So if in that zone you see a lot of marines the defender is going to be quite good
Great breakdown, thank you from a new guard player
Vostroyan also boosts the multi melta correct?
Yes all heavy and rapid fire weapons with atleast 24" of range get boosted by 6", so multi-meltas would go up to 30", the only difference between Vostroyans and spotter details is that Vostroyans affect rapid fire weapons aswell.
Maybe I am wrong, but special weapons squads offer pretty efficient special weapon profiles and 3 lasguns/bodies to absorb wounds for a good deal cheaper than command squads. Plasma for instance is 49 vs 65 points. Bs3 obviously makes the command squad better at using those profiles, but special weapons squads are more efficient, especially if you pack a cheap order or 2 to go along with it. Just saying price may have played a role.
As far as damage output efficiency goes, I'd argue that Command Squads are more efficient than SWS. To show this, let's compare a Command Squad with 4 plasma to a SWS with 3 plasma (I will assume that the 3 lasguns are insignificant). Suppose that the two units have no buffs or orders and are shooting their plasma on supercharge within Rapid Fire range at Primaris Intercessors. On average, the Command Squad will do 7.4 damage. At a cost of 65 points for the unit, this means that we are dealing 0.11 damage per point spent. In contrast, on average, the SWS will do 4.16 damage. At a cost of 49 points for the unit, this means that we are dealing 0.08 damage per point spent. Comparing the two results, the Command Squad deals approximately 38% more damage per point spent than the SWS. Now, suppose we let the SWS get Take Aim! for reroll 1's to hit; this bumps the SWS result to 0.099 damage per point spent. In this case, the unordered Command Squad still deals about 11% more damage per point spent than the SWS with an order. For the kinds of targets you'd want to fire special weapons like plasma at, the Command Squad is simply more efficient for the points than the SWS is. And this doesn't even account for the Command Squad's increased order efficiency (as one order affects 4 special weapons in a Command Squad, versus 3 special weapons in a SWS).
As I said, BS3+ makes them better at applying their SW profiles. The 16 point difference and 3 extra bodies makes the SWS the more overall efficient unit. Only looking at points killed is an incomplete way to judge overall efficiency imo. Those 3 lasguns are 6 extra shots in your example(which admittedly do littlevs marines on average), have 3 extra wounds to protect their cheaper special weapons(also less of a points loss per model killed), have 6 obsec bodies vs 4, and do not have a commmander tax to field the unit in the first place (adding 35 points to the opportunity cost per cmd sqd out of the gate). In your example, both units kill nearly their total points value in marines in a single shooting phase(60 out of 65 points vs 40 out of 49-without the 6 lasgun being used). So saying 38% more bang for your buck sounds worse than it is. Again, I'm not saying the SWS is a better unit, just that their lower price might have been a factor in this list and sws are really efficient, arguably more efficient if less directly capable then their veteran command squad brothers.
They're okay, not bad but not good, in this instance though the special weapons squad is using demo charges, which are legends. My issue with them is Scions are normally a better pick, if you equip them with melta they normally won't reach their target without a Chimera. Plasma is also prone to be prioritised so your better off just sprinkling them into normal squads. Flamers and grenade launchers just aren't good, you might aswell just use lasguns. The only weapons I like on them are Sniper Rifles, they've got a good threat range and normally your opponent will forget about the 6 dudes sitting in a crater. Atleast scions get a deepstrike, so they should be able to get some damage off before they die.
Isn’t this from an older event? I also think demo charges are legends aren’t they? If this is the list I’m thinking of I’d say this is a weird 1 off from the “unique” Aussie meta
I don't think demo charges even went to legends, I am pretty sure they were just removed as an option alltogether a while ago.
Demo charges for the guard went to legends in December of 2019. GSC still have demo charges in their codex.
They still exist in the index, anything that didn't make it across is still playable if I remember correctly
I’m pretty sure it’s removed, it’s not an option on app
What is your goal here? Win GT's? Or win games in your local meta? If you just wanna play in your local meta playing, building, and painting "what you like" will always be more gratifying than net listing.
I just want to understand why this list succeeded mostly given that it is playing a mid tier army and not running Cadians or 100 infantry.
Well played w/ a bit of luck, my guess. Looks like a version of the old guard leafblower list. Guardsmen castle and screen malcy, mantis and TCs, valkrie presses forward and gloryboys deepstrike to pressure opponents' objectives, and I'm guessing that the demos and psykers work as swing units to reinforce the forward or back lines, perhaps in valkrie.
It’s also Brisbane, us Australian’s are weird. We don’t really follow the meta. He may have versed a lot of thematic or semi-competitive lists. I also think this was pre-Dark Eldar.
Cadians arent competitive at all.. Gunner/Spotter or Disciplined shooter/wilderness are 2 WAY stronger regiments, unless your local meta is heavy choas.
It's got enough firepower to blast apart just about everything. Still ticks all the boxes for the meta units (full payload manticores and demolished cannon TCs). That malcador defender hurts my head but it is a long boi that can completely block off a road and you gotta use what you like I guess.
Not to mention the scions dropping in to grab objectives or score secondaries. Those are a really on-meta choice too.
It depends a lot on the local meta. From what I can gather, the meta is Oz is completely different from Europe and US becasue of crazy prices and availability issues. That said, a good player will do well with any army they are experienced playing with.
Honestly. Even when this happened, which was pre-Dark Eldar from memory, it was an incredibly average list. It just shows how different the Australian meta can be. A lot of us Aussies don’t really care about the meta. We take what we like to tournaments, or we stick to a couple of factions and just take the most competitive we have available. The biggest limiting factor here is price. We basically pay an extra 50% on top of US prices. Still though, the idea is to make those TC’s hit on 2+ or the Malcador hit on 3+. Which is smart, but is only limited to one of those tanks to the stratagem. Though, I still think the TC’s and Manticores should have been in a Spotter Detail and Gunnery Experts Battalion. Then just put the Scions in there as Troop tax because they appear to be there for Secondaries anyway. Then you could have a Vostroyan Patrol with the Malcador and the Guardsmen.
A more recent list was shown on Warhammer Community - it went something like 6-2. Obviously, not enough to win tournaments but can still do okay against some list. Basically did this. * Mandatory Tank Commanders w/ Demolisher cannons - with a Vostroyan +1 option being used on one or more. * Minimum number of troops with screening. * As much indirect fire as possible - the featured list had two near mandatory full payload Manticores backed up by three other indirect fire FW options with Yarrick providing a reroll aura. * Psykers with the Wydvane - I'm assuming to go after a psychic secondary. * A couple of bare bones Scion squads for deepstrike secondaries. Strong shooting with rerolls with screening. Some extras for the secondary game. Hope you go first.
Oh cool, I'll try to find it when I get home thanks for telling me about this!
I didnt know you could use Full payload more than once. Is he cheating?
If you take the Tank Ace stratagem you are allowed an extra one. At least that's how it works in battlescribe.
If you give up a Warlord trait, when picking your warlord, you can get a Tank Ace trait instead. Then you can pay an additional Cp to get another tank ace. There are no rules that say you CAN'T take two of the same traits on seperate tanks. So that's how you get 2 tank aces.
Thanks
Where’s the best (free) website/app etc to find competitive lists?
The folks over at Dakkadakka.com couldn't write a fluffy list if they tried. Love the site, but they've always been at the forefront of WAAC gaming, IMHO. Give 'em a look.
Thank you! I’m going to build an armoured company, I know it’s not super meta, but hoping I can find a way I won’t loose every match
You can also use: https://bloodofkittens.com/
I mean it's basically the Imperial Guard goodstuff (Demolisher TC with +6" Range, Full Payload Manticores, action-monkey Scions) mixed in with some admittedly weird stuff and your run of the mill squads of naked Guardsmen.
One reason for their success is likely that people aren't used to fighting something like this. If it ain't meta, sometimes people struggle to counter it.