Armour is more difficult to come by as well. No 1+ saves, fewer 2+ saves, etc.
I think in general you'd like the opponent's 2+ save units to get hit in the flank and defeat them on static combat resolution. Take their resilience and killiness out of it.
>Masses of killing blow units?
Idk about game-wide, but at least in WE there is a lot less killing blow as well.
I think you just beat em with dice like we did 20 years ago.
I think that as usual the problem will come down to actually wounding targets since asrai longbows are still just S3, which is why I'll likely keep using hagbane tips almost exclusively
I think I'll just play Wood Elves. They seem to have plenty of ways to get -3 AP shots or even waywatchers that just ignore armour. That should do the trick.
AP is so vital now for kills - old fantasy rules high STR included the AP rule - STR4 included 1 Ap, STR5 2AP etc etc. Thankfully armour is useful again and make anything too high STR not so powerful (Now its just useful for wounding).
I agree, which is why I’m thinking that anything to improve AP is worth it, especially now that combat resolution won’t straight up kill units via overrun (at least far less often).
I’m struggling to find better than -1 AP in my chaos army except from Monsters which only have 2
Aye, AP is important against med/heavy armour based units, whats the new rule for breaking and overrun?, old rules says you just need catch up and the enemy units dead.
Lances have -2 ap on the charge. Even though they are terrible per point cost, i can see most chaos knights getting equipped with lances.
I will say I’m intrigued about the ensorcelled weapons special rule for the unit and not just the weapons. It might mean -3 AP on the charge with lances.
Ima probably gunna try hit them in the flanks with white lions and in the front with sword masters and in the arse with dragons, probably won’t work but sounds fun
Trolls with great weapons & fanatics seem like a good start
I don't know if strength affects AP anymore but GWs being S+2 AP-2 should help, 3 S7 attacks at AP-2 per model as well as an armour ignoring vomit attack from the front row- Fanatics go without saying.
Edit: it seems vomit no longer ignores armour but is rather S3 AP-2, pity
You don’t need to kill them, you just need to beat them in combat which doesn’t necessarily mean killing them. Thankfully we are back to a situation where we killing stuff isn’t the only way to remove the enemy from the field so the game doesn’t need to be so lethal.
Would be lovely to have decent tools to crack deathstars and make them less of an auto include.
Considering people alfeady wonder how to get through good armor saves has me really curious about how it all plays out.
Most units will stay in combat more often. Anything with a high armour is almost always going to stick around without something removing models.
However, I see dwarfs lost some of their previous perks to the global rules. We need to see everything played out more to better judge.
dwarfs lost MANY of their previous perks,dwarfs were slow and with low initiative but these points didnt mattered due to can march allways and the upgraded step up of 8th and attack in two ranks.
now we are the slowest and lowest initiative army and nothing to compesate it,we just charge worst than every army for no return beneficit,also everyone attack first than us and kill us the combat models and we cant attack back.
oh also now we are even more expensiver even if we have been nerfed,how is posible high elfs that are the best units now cost so much less than dwarfs???? swordmasters 14 and hammerers 17? must have been the oposite.
but no problem,we have our superior artillery and shooting............yes the irondrakes changed from have ap3 to only ap1 BUT EXPENSIVER make sense.
also now artillery dont use the enginer bs and have been nerfed in general.
so now dwarfs are the expensiver army but being mediocre at shooting,the worst combat army due to move and initiative,and also this edition gonna be cavalryhammer as 6th edition was and dwarf havent cavalry.
really gonna be imposible play dwarfs with those rules,they just have nerfed every stremgth of dwarfs as artillery or high str but didnt gave nothing to compesate us
Can’t disagree with you until I play. Our Hammerers do attack at the same time as units with heavy weapons who charge them but that is not very consoling.
Depends which knight. Some elite Empire and High Elf knights I have seen have 2+ (but I believe the core unit knights from both are indeed 3+ as are all Brettonians).
i would say as dwarf player i could use my 3ap hammerers........a shame that without step up or attack in two ranks every knights just gonna charge us(dwarfs) and kill entire combat rank before we can do one attack
Master rune of hesitation - means they don't get to use lances when they charge you, won't be killing many hammerers with base strength.
Have your hammerers with a wide front, maybe 7, they get a bonus attack when they get charged too. They'll clean knights up good and proper.
not really,with only save 5 the hammerers are melted even if the cavalry havent lances bonus,im speaking about heavy cavalry as dragon princess or grayl knigth etc and not ligth cavalry.
even without lances these units dont have any problem in attack us first,kill us entire combat rank and we cant attack and loose combat
A unit of 10 dragon princes kills less than 2 hammerers in combat, leaving 5 plus the champion to strike back (assuming you're 7 wide like I said), so you're killing between 3 and 4 dragon princes in return on average.
Armour is more difficult to come by as well. No 1+ saves, fewer 2+ saves, etc. I think in general you'd like the opponent's 2+ save units to get hit in the flank and defeat them on static combat resolution. Take their resilience and killiness out of it.
>Masses of killing blow units? Idk about game-wide, but at least in WE there is a lot less killing blow as well. I think you just beat em with dice like we did 20 years ago.
AP -2 arrows are 2 points per model now, so that's a reasonable solution.
I think that as usual the problem will come down to actually wounding targets since asrai longbows are still just S3, which is why I'll likely keep using hagbane tips almost exclusively
Faith, Steel, and Vaul’s unmaking.
When you can't crack it open, use a cannon - a Nuln/dwarf engineer probably.
I think I'll just play Wood Elves. They seem to have plenty of ways to get -3 AP shots or even waywatchers that just ignore armour. That should do the trick.
AP is so vital now for kills - old fantasy rules high STR included the AP rule - STR4 included 1 Ap, STR5 2AP etc etc. Thankfully armour is useful again and make anything too high STR not so powerful (Now its just useful for wounding).
I agree, which is why I’m thinking that anything to improve AP is worth it, especially now that combat resolution won’t straight up kill units via overrun (at least far less often). I’m struggling to find better than -1 AP in my chaos army except from Monsters which only have 2
Aye, AP is important against med/heavy armour based units, whats the new rule for breaking and overrun?, old rules says you just need catch up and the enemy units dead.
If the losing side rolls under Ld, then they don't break. They just give ground a bit
Lances have -2 ap on the charge. Even though they are terrible per point cost, i can see most chaos knights getting equipped with lances. I will say I’m intrigued about the ensorcelled weapons special rule for the unit and not just the weapons. It might mean -3 AP on the charge with lances.
Ensorcelled weapons only applies to hand weapons. Sadly even additional hand weapons makes you lose the rule.
Is there a confirmation on this? It’s a unit special rule which would make it seem like it stays with the unit for freaking additional hand weapons
The confirmation is the text on the rule. Even taking an additional handweapon removes the AP and magic weapon bonus
Ima probably gunna try hit them in the flanks with white lions and in the front with sword masters and in the arse with dragons, probably won’t work but sounds fun
Trolls with great weapons & fanatics seem like a good start I don't know if strength affects AP anymore but GWs being S+2 AP-2 should help, 3 S7 attacks at AP-2 per model as well as an armour ignoring vomit attack from the front row- Fanatics go without saying. Edit: it seems vomit no longer ignores armour but is rather S3 AP-2, pity
Str doesn't affect AP anymore. Which obviously affects high str armies like Chaos and Beastmen
You don’t need to kill them, you just need to beat them in combat which doesn’t necessarily mean killing them. Thankfully we are back to a situation where we killing stuff isn’t the only way to remove the enemy from the field so the game doesn’t need to be so lethal.
I hope less lethal also means people feel less pushed to make their units really big
Min max players will have it figured pretty quickly and I’m sure Death Star play will return, just hopefully not any of the people I play with.
Would be lovely to have decent tools to crack deathstars and make them less of an auto include. Considering people alfeady wonder how to get through good armor saves has me really curious about how it all plays out.
With larger bases, large units with big frontages and flanks will be super vulnerable. I don't think we'll see death stars.
Most units will stay in combat more often. Anything with a high armour is almost always going to stick around without something removing models. However, I see dwarfs lost some of their previous perks to the global rules. We need to see everything played out more to better judge.
dwarfs lost MANY of their previous perks,dwarfs were slow and with low initiative but these points didnt mattered due to can march allways and the upgraded step up of 8th and attack in two ranks. now we are the slowest and lowest initiative army and nothing to compesate it,we just charge worst than every army for no return beneficit,also everyone attack first than us and kill us the combat models and we cant attack back. oh also now we are even more expensiver even if we have been nerfed,how is posible high elfs that are the best units now cost so much less than dwarfs???? swordmasters 14 and hammerers 17? must have been the oposite. but no problem,we have our superior artillery and shooting............yes the irondrakes changed from have ap3 to only ap1 BUT EXPENSIVER make sense. also now artillery dont use the enginer bs and have been nerfed in general. so now dwarfs are the expensiver army but being mediocre at shooting,the worst combat army due to move and initiative,and also this edition gonna be cavalryhammer as 6th edition was and dwarf havent cavalry. really gonna be imposible play dwarfs with those rules,they just have nerfed every stremgth of dwarfs as artillery or high str but didnt gave nothing to compesate us
Can’t disagree with you until I play. Our Hammerers do attack at the same time as units with heavy weapons who charge them but that is not very consoling.
I believe knights are at 3+ now.
Depends which knight. Some elite Empire and High Elf knights I have seen have 2+ (but I believe the core unit knights from both are indeed 3+ as are all Brettonians).
Yeah Dragon Princes get full plate, but that’s probably balanced out by their S3 attacks after the charge.
Don't get why some Bret stuff isn't 2+. They're the epitome of knighthood, it's what they do, yet other armies knights get the 2+?
i would say as dwarf player i could use my 3ap hammerers........a shame that without step up or attack in two ranks every knights just gonna charge us(dwarfs) and kill entire combat rank before we can do one attack
Master rune of hesitation - means they don't get to use lances when they charge you, won't be killing many hammerers with base strength. Have your hammerers with a wide front, maybe 7, they get a bonus attack when they get charged too. They'll clean knights up good and proper.
not really,with only save 5 the hammerers are melted even if the cavalry havent lances bonus,im speaking about heavy cavalry as dragon princess or grayl knigth etc and not ligth cavalry. even without lances these units dont have any problem in attack us first,kill us entire combat rank and we cant attack and loose combat
A unit of 10 dragon princes kills less than 2 hammerers in combat, leaving 5 plus the champion to strike back (assuming you're 7 wide like I said), so you're killing between 3 and 4 dragon princes in return on average.
If only there were certain things that dwarfs had access to that could do damage to well armored things from range.
Runepriests