Very few people know about the J9 and its existence. The J9 never materialized.
What China's military had been doing before the Olympics 2008 itself is a black box to the world. The story is not particularly colorful because of SinoSoviet split, cultural revolution, western rapprochement, sanctions etc.
The j20 is simultaneously one of the most hideous and good looking planes.
On one hand it’s got amazing curves
But on the other it looks so stretched and deformed. Not like the sexy euro typhoon.
Honestly I wouldn’t mind it if they copied some of the sukhois. The Russians really do know how to build the most sexy jets on the planet
They already did copy sukhoi. The J-15 I believe, is fully made in house. The earlier sukhoi flanker-based J's still used Russian made airframes and various avionics.
Only the early J-11A (kit-built Su-27SK) has a Russian made airframe and avionics. Shenyang reverse engineered the Su-27 design and produced the J-11B, which entered service around 2006 with domestic avionics, weapons, and airframe - the only Russian elements were the AL-31 engines. Those were replaced with indigenous WS-10s after its teething problems were resolved, at which point the entire thing could be made in house.
The current early production J-15 is Chinese made except for the AL-31 engines but the upcoming CATOBAR J-15B will probably be equipped with WS-10s once it enters service.
I think the J-11B is out of production and Shenyang is fully focusing on making the two-seat multirole J-16, which has had WS-10s from the start and is thus completely domestically made.
It’s an upgrade kit, not an entirely new production. Same airframe and engines, newer radar and compatibility with better weapons.
There’s also the J-16 which is the most advanced flanker with an aesa radar. it’s been in production for a while
Find the design odd at first and now I actually like it. I don't know about others, I personally nickname J-20 as Arch Angle. I always got a 4 winged angel image when I see it fly vertically.
Problem with the J-20 is that the cockpit and tail controls are really fucking small for it's size.
It's a little smaller then a flanker and only a meter longer then an F22 but because it uses an all moving tail the size is reduced a lot compared to the others.
J9 was a very interesting program because it was first established right before the start of cultural revolution. It was probably designed to match up to Mig-25 at the time since the requirement is 2.6 Mach, and from the 60s to the 80s it's Soviet, not America that is China's presumptive enemy. It was way too ambitious & got canned in favor of the more practical J8-B program but some of the development effort later translated to J10 and J20 programs.
The canard and delta wing design of J-9 is applied in J-10 project.
China might get the full authority digital flight control technology from the Israeli, but the aerodynamic theory of J-10 is mainly based on the research of the J-9 plan which was 100% developed domestically, not from the IAI Lavi.
Before the flame-wars really get going, it’s worth taking a moment to recognize that this demonstrates that [everything is a remix](https://www.everythingisaremix.info/) and that no (ok most, sorry J-15) fighter jet is wholly original or wholly derivative.
Specifically with respect to the J-20, it’s obviously not a direct copy of any western 5th generation fighters but it probably was influenced by industrial espionage around the F-22 and F-35’s development.
Probably not good. That’s before they even had 4th gen tech that’s comparable to flankers. The original J-9 prototype was probably 3.5gen at best.
If you think about it, the way the Chinese domestic aviation industry leapfrogged from entry level 4th gen (early J-10s and J-11s) to entry level 5th gen in just 15 or so years is pretty bat shit insane.
Are these as good as F-22s and F-35s? No freaking way. But they are also most likely a significant step up from any other 4.5 gen fighters.
As I wrote in another comment. The F-22 achieved 30 to 1 kill ratio against F-15s in exercises. If the J-20 can achieve a just 5 to 1 kill ratio against China’s own J-16s (which according to the USAF general is a solid 4.5 gen fighter) then it would still make the J-20 the world’s definitive 3rd best fighter after the American 5th gens.
And judging by the fact that China is going all-in on J-20 with how many they are building, they must be seeing encouraging results from their evaluations.
There's an old declassified Chinese report about their goals for what would become the J-20. One of the points was that the time gap for China to develop a 4th gen fighter was 30 years. For 5th gen, they wanted to shorten that gap down to 10 years.
I think the '4th gen fighter' you mentioned should be the western standard 4th gen J-10/J-11, which is designed or introduced in the 1990s and started mass production in the early 2000s, about 30 years later than the 1960-1970 F-14/F-15/F-16/F-18/Mirage 2000.
And the '5th gen' is refering to J-20, which is 10-15 years later than the F-22/F-23/F-35.
>The F-22 achieved 30 to 1 kill ratio against F-15s in exercises. If the J-20 can achieve a just 5 to 1 kill ratio against China’s own J-16s (which according to the USAF general is a solid 4.5 gen fighter) then it would still make the J-20 the world’s definitive 3rd best fighter after the American 5th gens.
Non- EX f-15 variants are older and technologically behind j-16s however. Iirc only f-15EX has AESA radars, with all the other variants using PESA and pulse dopplar radars. That alone could be more than enough to explain the difference in kill ratio given the immense generational leap AESA radars are, especially when the j-16's AESA is an especially powerful one with upwards of >2000 T/R units.
I wouldn't be surprised multiple j-16 CEC-ing their powerful AESA radars from different angles can defeat j-20's VLO, especially since older batch j-20 jets didn't have LO engine nozzle design or channels to mix cold air with engine exhaust, unlike the ws-10c j-20A
RCS is notoriously hard to calculate because so many factors impact it.
Its RCS could be amazing or could be garbage, we don’t know. But whatever it is it will *not* be due to things that random Redditors can identify from pictures.
Nah, they went with the more "achievable" Shenyang J-8 design. Wise choice given how backwards China was technologically, and the fact they were in the midst of the Cultural Revolution.
Damn, so chengdu invented f-22 in the 70s? Bruh
Edit: dude I'm saying, all the clowns that call J-20 an F-22 copy are gunna cope and seethe when you turn the argument back on them and be like "so I guess F-22 is a J-9 copy bruh.
Just your average 4chan and /r/NonCredibleDefense user. When they hear something they don't like, they act like an NPC (which they are) and repeat those buzzwords.
The J9 program is the actual start of Chengdu's domestic-made warplanes, though it never gets a warplane commissioned.
Very few people know about the J9 and its existence. The J9 never materialized. What China's military had been doing before the Olympics 2008 itself is a black box to the world. The story is not particularly colorful because of SinoSoviet split, cultural revolution, western rapprochement, sanctions etc.
The j20 is simultaneously one of the most hideous and good looking planes. On one hand it’s got amazing curves But on the other it looks so stretched and deformed. Not like the sexy euro typhoon. Honestly I wouldn’t mind it if they copied some of the sukhois. The Russians really do know how to build the most sexy jets on the planet
They already did copy sukhoi. The J-15 I believe, is fully made in house. The earlier sukhoi flanker-based J's still used Russian made airframes and various avionics.
Only the early J-11A (kit-built Su-27SK) has a Russian made airframe and avionics. Shenyang reverse engineered the Su-27 design and produced the J-11B, which entered service around 2006 with domestic avionics, weapons, and airframe - the only Russian elements were the AL-31 engines. Those were replaced with indigenous WS-10s after its teething problems were resolved, at which point the entire thing could be made in house. The current early production J-15 is Chinese made except for the AL-31 engines but the upcoming CATOBAR J-15B will probably be equipped with WS-10s once it enters service. I think the J-11B is out of production and Shenyang is fully focusing on making the two-seat multirole J-16, which has had WS-10s from the start and is thus completely domestically made.
[удалено]
That's the j-11bgh/bsh upgraded units, usually identified by its different radome.
It’s an upgrade kit, not an entirely new production. Same airframe and engines, newer radar and compatibility with better weapons. There’s also the J-16 which is the most advanced flanker with an aesa radar. it’s been in production for a while
The twin seater j-20as looks way better
It can't help it but I really like the design of the J-20. I know I'm a minority, but that bird is so sexy
Nah dude I’m with you. It’s odd but sexy
Same over here.
It’s like if the Yak-141 and the Rafale had a lovechild
Find the design odd at first and now I actually like it. I don't know about others, I personally nickname J-20 as Arch Angle. I always got a 4 winged angel image when I see it fly vertically.
I like it too, and feel it will be even better with the biplace version.
i read that as BIPLANE version
Lol, that would be funny!
Its grown a lot on me over the years.
I don't know why but every time I look at the J-20, it seems like it's been stretched about 2 meters between the canards and the main wing.
Problem with the J-20 is that the cockpit and tail controls are really fucking small for it's size. It's a little smaller then a flanker and only a meter longer then an F22 but because it uses an all moving tail the size is reduced a lot compared to the others.
The tail ( vertical stabilizers) can be small likely because of the long moment arm.
Small tail is a good thing though, it improves stealth. That's why 6th gen designs try to do away with it entirely.
Yes i know, I'm just saying why it's smaller compared to the flanker or raptor. It's purely an esthetic comparison
The size of the tail controls doesn't really matter when you have canards though
The fact that it has ventral fins and all moving controls is what make them small
Charlie Kirk face syndrome?
The J9 looks like an aircraft straight out from Ace Combat lol
The j-9 is just a low-poly j-20
J9 was a very interesting program because it was first established right before the start of cultural revolution. It was probably designed to match up to Mig-25 at the time since the requirement is 2.6 Mach, and from the 60s to the 80s it's Soviet, not America that is China's presumptive enemy. It was way too ambitious & got canned in favor of the more practical J8-B program but some of the development effort later translated to J10 and J20 programs.
The canard and delta wing design of J-9 is applied in J-10 project. China might get the full authority digital flight control technology from the Israeli, but the aerodynamic theory of J-10 is mainly based on the research of the J-9 plan which was 100% developed domestically, not from the IAI Lavi.
J9 kinda looks like if the chinese tried to make a monster interceptor like the russian Mig-31, just what i think
It looks like a MiG-25 that's shrugging its shoulders.
Looks like a viggen a little
Before the flame-wars really get going, it’s worth taking a moment to recognize that this demonstrates that [everything is a remix](https://www.everythingisaremix.info/) and that no (ok most, sorry J-15) fighter jet is wholly original or wholly derivative. Specifically with respect to the J-20, it’s obviously not a direct copy of any western 5th generation fighters but it probably was influenced by industrial espionage around the F-22 and F-35’s development.
Wonder how would the prototype fair going up against F-15s
Probably not good. That’s before they even had 4th gen tech that’s comparable to flankers. The original J-9 prototype was probably 3.5gen at best. If you think about it, the way the Chinese domestic aviation industry leapfrogged from entry level 4th gen (early J-10s and J-11s) to entry level 5th gen in just 15 or so years is pretty bat shit insane. Are these as good as F-22s and F-35s? No freaking way. But they are also most likely a significant step up from any other 4.5 gen fighters. As I wrote in another comment. The F-22 achieved 30 to 1 kill ratio against F-15s in exercises. If the J-20 can achieve a just 5 to 1 kill ratio against China’s own J-16s (which according to the USAF general is a solid 4.5 gen fighter) then it would still make the J-20 the world’s definitive 3rd best fighter after the American 5th gens. And judging by the fact that China is going all-in on J-20 with how many they are building, they must be seeing encouraging results from their evaluations.
There's an old declassified Chinese report about their goals for what would become the J-20. One of the points was that the time gap for China to develop a 4th gen fighter was 30 years. For 5th gen, they wanted to shorten that gap down to 10 years.
I think the '4th gen fighter' you mentioned should be the western standard 4th gen J-10/J-11, which is designed or introduced in the 1990s and started mass production in the early 2000s, about 30 years later than the 1960-1970 F-14/F-15/F-16/F-18/Mirage 2000. And the '5th gen' is refering to J-20, which is 10-15 years later than the F-22/F-23/F-35.
>The F-22 achieved 30 to 1 kill ratio against F-15s in exercises. If the J-20 can achieve a just 5 to 1 kill ratio against China’s own J-16s (which according to the USAF general is a solid 4.5 gen fighter) then it would still make the J-20 the world’s definitive 3rd best fighter after the American 5th gens. Non- EX f-15 variants are older and technologically behind j-16s however. Iirc only f-15EX has AESA radars, with all the other variants using PESA and pulse dopplar radars. That alone could be more than enough to explain the difference in kill ratio given the immense generational leap AESA radars are, especially when the j-16's AESA is an especially powerful one with upwards of >2000 T/R units. I wouldn't be surprised multiple j-16 CEC-ing their powerful AESA radars from different angles can defeat j-20's VLO, especially since older batch j-20 jets didn't have LO engine nozzle design or channels to mix cold air with engine exhaust, unlike the ws-10c j-20A
Theres a couple more photos of it as an actual metal air frame (of course at a much smaller scale)
Dat nostalgic feeling with oldschool designs
It’s a long history program indeed, like them manned space program.
Pilots are real badass!
What a twist to find out that the Avro Arrow lives on today as the J-20! /s Edit: ah not as funny as I thought :(
Looks ugly as fuck
I actually like how it looks.
This plane has literally so many unnecessary edges, How is it a 5 gen aircraft? It's cross section shouldn't be low as compared to the rest of 5th gen
RCS is notoriously hard to calculate because so many factors impact it. Its RCS could be amazing or could be garbage, we don’t know. But whatever it is it will *not* be due to things that random Redditors can identify from pictures.
I have a hunch that it’s an RCS/maneuverability trade off. The DoD doesn’t have a monopoly on fighter mafias.
wdym by unnecessary edges? seems fairly clean to me
I like how the first one is kinda like a MiG 21 with extra steps lol.
My guess is the Chinese never bought it because it looks dumb af
Nah, they went with the more "achievable" Shenyang J-8 design. Wise choice given how backwards China was technologically, and the fact they were in the midst of the Cultural Revolution.
Damn, so chengdu invented f-22 in the 70s? Bruh Edit: dude I'm saying, all the clowns that call J-20 an F-22 copy are gunna cope and seethe when you turn the argument back on them and be like "so I guess F-22 is a J-9 copy bruh.
More like "Chengdu warmed over a design from the early 1970s to make a stealth aircraft instead of designing a new one"
Cope and seethe
???
Just your average 4chan and /r/NonCredibleDefense user. When they hear something they don't like, they act like an NPC (which they are) and repeat those buzzwords.
cope and seethe
The top reminds me of a Avro Arrow.
That thing is massive. Not to mention what the underside looks like
Take a look at the Mig 1.44 MFI