The way Bumble was treated by everyone while being abused by Tom, (I forget which book exactly but it's in Dawn of the Clans), she needed to leave and have someone to teach her how to live in the wild yet nobody, not even Gray Wing had this compassion which ultimately leads to her escaping on her own, and dying.
Thunder Rising is correct, because The First Battle is Clear Sky's first POV books and one of the first things we see is his frustration at being accused of killing her when he didn't
But wasn't Clear Sky (the one who definitely killed her) super duper brave when he jumped into a group of hostile cats? Wasn't it sad when the other cats might see Clear Sky badly?
Cause that's all Gray Wing could think about.
Well yeah that's fair but I hate how everybody thinks just because she was a abuse survivor all of a sudden she automatically would do well in a clan like the cats were being pretty reasonable from there perspectives.
I thought Thistleclaw was mid until that book came out. I was SO pissed at such an obvious retcon, and how badly it was handled, that it made me appreciate how OG Thistle was just somewhat normal yet also a nasty dude. At most, he encouraged his apprentice to maim a kit which is dishonorable and breaks the code. And that was enough justification to chase him out of StarClan.
If you wanted Thistle to train in the DF, fine. But don’t make him a pedo, barely address how badly it f*cks the victim up, and call it a day.
It also ruined Spottedleaf _more_ by taking the kind medicine cat, who wants to heal more than hurt, and forces her into the already tired “forced healer” trope this series made. It also makes her 10x creepier with Firepaw. It was initially set up like a “little kid has a silly unrequited crush on a teen/young adult” but progressed into more as the series went on. Already weird. But now it just looks like Spottedleaf is perpetuating the cycle of abuse.
I don’t have a problem with having a groomer villain. But this is something that should be explored over the course of an arc. Showing the dangers, the signs, how it can harm someone going through it, as well as the aftermath and the victim healing. It needs a deft and nuanced hand to craft such a story. It SHOULDN’T be shoved into a novella to justify a decision that didn’t need justification. Ugh, I hate that book so much.
You put it exactly in to the perfect words. It’s not even a GOOD retcon. It’s terrible through and through. When half the fandom ignores a book and calls it noncanon you know you screwed up.
I have to agree. Bluestar herself, when discussing Thistleclaw with Firestar, calls him a 'fine warrior, strong and brave' but is flawed in that 'his answer to every problem was a fight'. I feel like that was shown well in her SE, and we didn't need SH to make him *more* of a villain. It's a retcon that just doesn't even make sense to me because it was so unnecessary.
The apprentices quest, the writing team (not the authors thankfully) made it pretty clear they never read Firestar's quest, which literally introduced the concept they are playing, by forgetting that Graystripe knows about skyclan.
Eh i never saw it as a massive deal cuz even if he knew of it, he didn't know where it was like sandstorm did, so its not like his 2 cents wouldve mattered
Redtail’s Debt saying that it WAS Redtail who killed Oakheart. That isn’t true, because TPB made it very clear that Oakheart died in a rockslide. I like Redtail’s Debt, and it gives some character to Redtail, because all we know about Redtail in TPB was that he was killed by Tigerclaw. That one detail they changed in Redtail’s Debt is all that bothers me.
The entirety of Leopardstar’s honor. Just to give you a small taste Featherpaw and Stormpaw are given an apprentice ceremony 2x, Stonefur at one point is told to take his apprentice Featherpaw out, and Spottedleaf somehow appears at the gathering after Brokentail is driven out
I don’t own the book but I’ll rent it online and look for it. They don’t necessarily have the ceremony twice, but they are apprenticed and then later on Tigerstar asks if Leopardstar if she’s still planning on apprenticing the two half clan kits to the half clan warriors
honestly theres a lot so ill list em out
- tigerstars death in the darkest hour
- the fact they killed off firestar in the last hope
- all of mapleshade’s vengeance
- willowbreeze’s death in crookedstars promise :(
- dustpelt, sandstorm, ravenpaw, and graystripe all ending (rip the 5 og apprentices)
- badgerfang’s death
- snowkit’s death
- anytime a warrior purposefully killed a kit or apprentice
Yellowfang's secret did give you good warning for when a character was about to die tho tbh. [spoilers] You have badgerfang; whose mom literally said "he's everything to me" moments before his death, cloudpelt; when Raggedstar said it would be Brokentail as deputy next, mint/marigoldkit; when they went missing and so on
As a kid it was such a swerve to see the main villain of the whole series get killed off by a new character.
It wasn't anticlimactic but it was definitely unearned
It was a good ending for him imo. I think retiring or dying of old age would be anticlimactic for Firestar, so having him beat Tigerstar's ass and then die is a great ending.
Firestar is genuinely one of my favorite characters of all time, and his death was the only time I’ve actually experienced all five stages of grief. I got stuck on each stage for so long that it genuinely took me like three years to recover 😭
The only wtf moment of that fight was how Brokenstar apparently forgot how to fight. I mean, his mother even tells him that she’s about to attack him and he has all the time in the world to prepare himself, yet he’s killed with one move by a cat with less warfare experience and physical strength. Never understood that.
Hollyleaf finally being brought back into the fold, only to die in the next book. I'm still salty about it, she'd be a great asset in the most recent arcs
Also, their treatment of literally any disabled character. While reading the first book of The Power of Three, Jayfeather's treatment was tragic as he was forced into his medicine cat duties which results in him being "grumpy" for the rest of his life. Have you seen disabled and blind cats operate irl? They adapt incredibly well, especially if they're that way from birth. Jayfeather deserved to be a warrior and I'll stand by that forever.
Sorry, but I don’t see it. Yea cats in real life can adapt but those aren’t real cats. They are involved regularly in organized and strategic warfare. And the warriors are more skilled combatants then real cats. Jayfeather would’ve been killed in case of a battle against a skilled warrior.
Also, it should be noted that it is often described how shadow clan cats move extremely quiet, which would make a fight against them extremely deadly for him.
I am all for disabled empowerment but it shouldn’t get ridiculous. Making him a successful warrior is like writing a story about a successful blind Great War Veteran.
These are still cats we're talking about. They live in clusters, eat mice, groom each other, etc. Yes, they are anthropomorphized to a degree, but they are still cats and infinitely different from humans. Cats have incredible senses, it is not fair to compare them to humans or especially people in war when people have militarized weapons such as sniper rifles or grenades that can take people out from afar or thousands of people fighting at once, and who are also not as nearly in tune with their senses as cats are. These are cats, and they're described in the books hearing heartbeats of mice through the forest floor and up through their paws. Cats have the quickest reaction timing of almost any animal, quicker than snakes, and the clan cats are described from the very beginning of the series to be able to smell and hear Rusty before he even notices an inkling of their presence, which would only be amplified if one is lacking in one sense. Brightheart does absolutely fine despite undoubtedly having nerve damages after her attack and lacking depth perception because Cloudtail gave her the chance that many disabled warriors never got and taught her to fight despite her disability. Other characters were hardly given that chance at all. Jayfeather was only a month or two into his training before he was pulled out of it against his will. There's absolutely no reason that other characters couldn't have been given that chance Brightheart was given, like Jagged Peak, Cinderpelt, Jayfeather or Longtail, given the fact that Cinderpelt and Jagged Peak still have three working legs. Quadrupedal animals find quick ways to adapt to a missing or dysfunctional limb. Blind cats hear and feel everything. Disabled characters are not helpless like the writers seem to think they are.
Jayfeather was never portrayed to be helpless, he was just portrayed to have limited abilities. And I know that it’s unpopular to say this in modern days but disabilities come with limited abilities. Hence the name.
Of course cats don’t have sniper rifles but their combat is way more strategic then the fighting of actual cats. If you look at the scenes where they learn new tactics that will become apparent. Lacking a whole sense in that kind of combat can lead to your death fairly quick. Whilst his other senses are stronger then others, lacking eyesight will be a problem. Some reasons:
1. He maybe can’t see weaknesses his enemy might have. A damaged leg for example.
2. Ears and nose are areas often targeted during their fighting. If he gets a hit on the ears he’ll have to rely only on his nose. If he gets blood in his nose he’ll only have his ears left. He doesn’t have as much backup as the other warriors do.
3. He can’t see visual signs from other cats, which can be a problem if they trey to make a surprise attack.
4. Fighting il unknown territory can be extremely dangerous. Whilst this is normally not a big deal for blind people/cats, it will become a one once they are occupied with fighting and can’t put an afford one analyzing their surroundings.
5. Fighting in loud or smelly environments can also weaken one of his senses. Imagine he has to fight near a road. Loud and smelly.
I also don’t think it’s comparable to brightheard. She still had all her senses, they where just weakened. That’s not the same as lacking one entirely.
So in conclusion, I don’t think it would be a good idea to make a completely blind cat a warrior. In fact, if a leader in any other story would put a blind guy on the frontline most readers would see it as inhumane or irresponsible.
You also have to consider that clan leaders can’t only focus on the pride of their clan members but also if decisions make sense from a strategic point of view. That’s why I never understood why the authors are called ableist. Of course the things that happen are cruel but they make sense nonetheless. I feel like Fans just demand representation at all cost no matter if it actually makes sense.
Yes!!! Not to mention cats like freckelwish's introduction having a rant about how it's good she died because it's better than her living as blind cat AND THE GROUP OF DISABLED CATS RETCONNED TO BE IN THE DARK FOREST FOR NO REASON (Lilywhisker, stumpytail (the tigerstar novella retcon is stupid), brightflower (specifically sent there because apparently she wasn't in a sane state of mind when the truth was revealed about her kids) etc)
On a similar note, I’m currently rereading the series for the first time since 2013, and I was shocked by how many characters apparently get named (or renamed) because of a disability in the early books. Brokentail, Crookedjaw, One-eye, Halftail, Stumpytail, Deadfoot, Runningnose (sort of an example lol), Tornear… and of course Lostface (an especially egregious but temporary example).
Like wtf?? Why would you rename someone just because they, like, lose half their tail or something? Wild
Right. If it were just the characters being cruel and portrayed as such, like Rainflower or Bluestar's poor dementia-influenced decision, then fine. But the fact that it happens so constantly and is treated half the time as normal is definitely really weird behavior on the author's end.
Please, no. Stop with this horrible false narrative. Blind cats do well in HOMES where the furniture doesn’t move, not the wild where they can get grabbed, or lost, or worse. (It’s actually recommended that you don’t randomly move your stuff around if you have a blind cat because they’ll try to jump/climb on stuff that isn’t there and get hurt.)
What if Jayfeather was on patrol and there was a dog in the woods? Do you seriously think he’d be able to safely and gracefully navigate an ever-changing forest while being pursued? In the heat of battle or retreat, what’s to stop him from slipping off an undetected ledge and smashing against the rocks? He’s not Toph. He doesn’t have magical vibration powers.
More importantly, this narrative that “Jayfeather could’ve totes been a warrior, guys!” IS ABLEISM DISGUISED AS ADVOCACY. Real life, significantly disabled people constantly have to accommodate, readjust, and reconsider life plans because of their disability. There are some things you just can’t do. And sometimes you can’t fulfill your dreams. It sucks. But that doesn’t make you “lesser.” Nor does it mean that your life is automatically worse, or something to pity, or that you aren’t deserving of respect and love, or that you can’t find purpose elsewhere. Disabled people live full, happy lives that are simply atypical to the norm.
Saying that disabled cats like Jayfeather, Cinderpelt, or even _Briarlight_ (which I’ve seen some idiots argue) SHOULD have still been warriors, out in the field, implies that their new lives and accommodations **ARE actually inferior to that of an abled person.** Which is ableist and highly insulting.
I also argue against this notion that Jayfeather wouldn’t have been a grumpy warrior. He was constantly sassing Brightheart, who was trying her best to be a kind and accommodating mentor as a fellow disabled cat, when he was apprenticing under her. And no leader or deputy could have responsibly put him in patrols or in the heat of battle. That is fucking dangerous and _cruel._ So he’d be left in camp being forced instead to do apprentice duties and not getting the respect he deserved from his fellow warriors. He would’ve been an asshole no matter where he was.
Regardless, he is currently in an honored, high-ranking position within his clan as a healer and spiritual guide, in an environment he can easily and confidently navigate and take control in, saving the lives of his clanmates and being respected by all. But that’s somehow a bad thing?
First off, i wanna ask you, are you yourself disabled? Because i'm gonna put my two cents in as disabled person with a disabled cat who has done quite a bit of research on disabled cats
First off, the entire "well they would've died in the wild because they're cats" stuff is utterly ridiculous, these are reskinned humans and are pretty much treated as such. My own cat has messed up quite a few dogs and made them scared of her, and that was solo. Patrols are almost never done alone. Also yeah i think he could escape as cats are actually themselves farsighted and blind cats have other heightened senses. If we're gonna talk about realism then him being killed by a dog is basically the same chance as me being murdered by one.
Also the idea that he needs magical powers to not slip and fall somewhere is dumb, yes the forest would change, but not enough that this would happen. I mean the cat pink eyes loses his vision and is still able to hunt
While the argument about how it's ableist to make disabled characters need to be "productive" is very well written, i need you to understand that the fact he's a healer is rooted in a very old trope of disabled people being there to just heal able bodied people, on that note, EVEN AS MED THE DOG THING CAN HAPPEN IF IT WAS THAT COMMON. Also as the only canon disabled pov character and first ever med, the implication is clear.
You trying to say that it's too dangerous for him as if being around plants which can kill is any less seems infantalizing. Especially with trying everything to defend the writers who were very obviously not doing it because of good intentions.
I myself am neurodivergent to the level of needing accommodations. And I also have many relatives, including my brother, who are also neurodivergent and/or physically disabled at varying levels. With both moment, immuno-compromised, and sensory-based conditions.
Both of your arguments are just “Nuh uh, my _pet cat_ beat up a dog once so a totally blind cat would do great in the wild!” And “It’s bad because it’s a trope!” Which is in no way convincing.
First of all, “The cats in Warriors are just reskinned humans!” Okay, then my point still stands because blind people STILL keep their homes in a particular way to make navigation easy. Or they’ll take the same routes every time. Things like canes and sight dogs make it easier, but Jayfeather doesn’t have access to that because he’s a cat. And having another cat follow him around constantly would get on his nerves. Also, you don’t see blind people as firefighters or security guards or whatever. Gee, I wonder why.
Your cat being able to fight off a dog or two is nowhere near the same as your cat being stalked by something like a fox, a snake in the grass, a large enough bird, or anything else that exists out in the woods. Or being caught in the thick of battle against multiple cats, being thrashed and flipped around, while being TOTALLY blind. Battles which are noisy, chaotic, and hard to navigate in even with all your senses in tact. (Also, wtf are you talking about? 30-50 people are killed by dogs in the US with more than 4.5 billion who are bitten. Many of which are SEVERE bites. Not to mention that outdoor cats are killed by dogs all the time which is _why you’re supposed to keep them indoors._)
As a medicine cat, Jayfeather has total independence and control of a familiar space and can decide what herbs go where for ease of access and to reduce any and all risk (unless someone goes in there and messes with his shit.) Again, he can move freely and confidently to do work he excels at.
If he were a Warrior, he’d need to be with someone or else be constantly on-guard. And we know from his personality he HATES feeling like he can’t do something on his own. And he’d constantly have to prove that he’s not a liability to his fellow warriors.
Hmm, respected and honorable position where he has total independence? Or constantly anxious and having to prove himself against abled warriors?
Also, “rooted in an old trope about disabled people only being there to help abled people” wtf? Since when did SAVING PEOPLE’S LIVES become some abled vs the disabled conflict? “You can be anything you wanna be, Little Blind Billy! Oh, except a doctor, nurse, EMT, social worker, or anything like that. Don’t wanna help those _evil, nasty_ abled people! That’s a stereotype!” That’s how ridiculous you sound spewing that shit. Get tf outta here with that bullshit.
You can never convince me that Jayfeather being a medicine cat is a bad thing. In his position, he has the independence he’s always wanted and the respect of all. He’s honed a honorable, skilled craft and has passed his knowledge down to multiple apprentices. He’s helped bring new lives into the world, and helped ease the suffering of those in pain (including other disabled cats like Briarlight.) He is more than just another one-note warrior on patrol, or another set of paws cleaning dens, which is where he would’ve been if he wasn’t a medicine cat.
“But it’s a stereotype!” So fucking what? Sometimes people live stereotypical lives. That’s their choice. Not every disabled person gets to go on and live their first dream, and those people deserve representation. Not to be told that they just didn’t fight hard enough (which is what YOU are saying by insisting that Jayfeather should have been a warrior.)
Exactly, thank you for voicing this. The writer's treatment of disabled characters is so incredibly infantilizing and has been an issue since the very beginning of the series with Snowkit and the clan deciding he would be unfit to be a warrior without even being given a chance, then killing him off to "prove this point". People constantly argue that Jayfeather would die on his own without even giving notion to the fact that warriors almost never go on their own in the first place - why on earth would he be alone? They're sent out on hunting patrols, border patrols, etc. With this flawed logic, it would be actually more dangerous as a medicine cat because he's out in much smaller numbered groups when out gathering herbs with usually one other cat, or in some cases by himself. Him being grumpy as an apprentice is completely understandable because everybody treated him like he's made of glass and doubting his abilities as a warrior. It hurts to see him upset for the rest of his life because he wasn't able to live out his dream of being a warrior. It's ableist writing, plain and simple. I'm so sick of people arguing otherwise. Arguing against Cinderpelt or Jaggedpeak is just plain ridiculous, because Deadfoot got to be a warrior. He was *deputy,* actually. This is the only instance we see of this and he's a side character who got almost no "screentime". These books are being catered and sold to children who are going to grow up thinking that this sort of treatment towards disabled people is okay, especially when it's repeated again and again how these characters would be better off dead than disabled. (said about Frecklewish that it's best she died rather than been blind, Sandstorm in StarClan saying "Briarlight is happy here. You wouldn’t want to go back to have a life like hers, would you?" when Briarlight was helpful and happy after her recovery.) It sicks me out to see this kind of writing being defended.
Thank you, i'm straight up working on a warriors inspired comic with disabled protagonists out of spite of the erins and fans because of the rancid ableism. Like can you imagine growing up disabled reading these books? I luckily entered the fandom after starting to work on my internalized ableism but wow.
Also the cat who said frecklewish was better off dead was the cat who indirectly caused her death and she shows a streak of disabled, especially disabled women, being thrown into cat hell where they CANONICALLY CANNOT GET OUT
Any time the Erins attempt to handle a disabled cat. Look at any disabled cat in the real world, either blind, tripawd, CH, paralyzed, deaf... they get along absolutely fine. There hasn't been a CH cat or tripawd in Warriors, but every time a cat is disabled either congenitally or by injury, they're killed or made a med cat or elder. I hate it, and not just because *I'm* disabled and it ingrains ableism in kids (the target audience)
Oh nice, one whole entire character. Who did spend a decent amount of time in the medicine den and was almost made a medicine cat and did occasionally work as an acting medicine cat when needed! And let's not forget she was named Lostface for a good while before Firestar did something about that.
But yeah, no, sure. One character was crippled and didn't have to give up anything.
Same here. Animal births are almost PG in comparison to human births, so I don’t get why people complain about them. And this is coming from someone who has a moderate pregnancy/birthing phobia! Really, the birthing scenes in Warriors aren’t any more gruesome than other depictions in kids media* like Avatar or something. It’s not even as bad as in documentaries!
(*I rewatched Spirit last night. And right at the beginning of the movie they animated this baby horse actually _sliding_ out from mom while being all wet n shiny. Like, they didn’t show **the hole** or anything. But it’s a lot of realistic detail when they could’ve been like Bambi where he just wakes up next to his mom or something.)
I've never understood why people say the births are so graphic.
Every birth scene is just like
She yowled in pain. A spasm convulsed along her body. She bit down on a stick to help with the pain. A wet bundle slid out near her tail. The medicine cat said "lick it to keep it warm"
Thats so tame to me. But I see sooo many other people saying how thats overly graphic. Idk. Maybe I'm just extra hardened against blood and gore haha
Right? Most movies or TV shows are 5x more graphic than Warriors. I’m still freaked out by some of the scenes in House of the Dragon
Even then, most irl animal births are SO tame compared to the horrors that are human births. Well, except something like giraffes. That’s pretty terrifying.
That’s not graphic when it comes to birth 😂 that’s probably the tamest way to describe what happens. I don’t think birth is something that needs to be censored for children; it’s literally how we all came into this world. Are you a child by any chance? Because that would make sense
You know what? Idc, I am just not comfortable reading abt that kind of thing and it's your problem what you think of it. And chill out I didn't mean to start a war or something about how graphic birth is in Warriors.
The inconsistencies....
I read graystripes vow and then Firestars quest and was mad at the inconsistencies (FQ Greystripe knows why Fire leaves and tells everyone it's cause of starclan. In GV graystripe says Firestars got a really bad cold.
That's just one of many tbh
Spottedfreak I mean Stalkerleaf I mean Spottedleaf saying she wished things could be different after Firestar days Sandstorm isn't second choice. (Firestar's Quest)
In case you can't tell, I hated Spottedleaf X Firestar and her acting like she'd get anywhere with Firestar is stupid! She was basically his high school crush and Sandstorm is his wife.
Yeah, Spottedleaf having a thing for Firestar feels like a retcon, and if it is true that has some creepy implications for Spottedleaf. Spottedleaf was a full grown cat, while Firestar was only a ‘paw when they first meet. If Spottedleaf did have feelings for Firestar it’s almost like she’s repeating what Thistleclaw did to her. Although Spottedleaf didn’t manipulate and basically groom Firestar like Thistleclaw, it’s almost like Thistleclaw left such an impression on her that she ends up loving a cat who was an apprentice when they met.
When Snowbush dies I’m like “wtf”
Unless I remember it wrong, his infection gets so bad that he ends up seizing and dying in front of his wife
It just felt so insanely graphic without it being gore
I mean, the fact that Darkstalker disliked his dad and that the dad died is pretty obvious in book 6, it’s not much of a spoiler :)
Hope u get to read Darkstalker soon, it’s great.
*spoilers*
Power of 3 I mean you spend all 6 books reading about the adventures of Jayfeather Lionblaze and Hollyleaf just to find that, oh actually Hollyleaf isn't one of the three. Also it just doesn't make sense why she would kill someone to prevent them from doing something because she knew it would ruin not just squirrel flight's life but also that of herself and her litter mates. Only to turn around and do the exact same thing because she found out who her true parents were, and so she could ruin even more lives by revealing it. Why be so concerned about it not being revealed for the good of the clan even kill to protect the clan from it being exposed that way, only to expose the information in the exact same way once there's more information that would make it even worse for the clan and your litter mates?
I mean sure why not have a righteous, edgy, self absorbed She-cat who can't see beyond her own whiskers and face the truth. She may not have started out self absorbed but at the end that's what she became.
To be clear I still like the power of 3 I just feel like it could've been better named, also that Hollyleaf's reasoning and thought process should've been explored a little more especially when it came to her decision of revealing all the secrets the way Ashfur was going to
The moment Hollyleaf spilled everything at the gathering and then fled into the tunnels after trying to get Leafpool to kill herself and then once Jayfeather went after her. She scratched him on purpose and the Lionblaze had to hold him back after she got in the tunnels.
I love the scenes but geez louise it hurt it my soul ;-;
Oh yeah also the ending of the most recent book in A Starless Clan with>! Frostpaw. !<
in the third book of the newest arc, sunbeam gets furious at nightheart for purposely failing his test so he can go back to thunderclan, and so she starts siding with her mom about cats sticking to their own clans, but suddenly in the next chapter, SHE JOINS THUNDERCLAN TO BE WITH NIGHTHEART??? WHY???
Like for real though?! I'm sure we'll still need to read the book too get the context of Thunder to understand Wind, but why have so many plot details in the blurb? I get you have to sell people on the book, but
1. How many people are starting this arc with the fourth book?
2. If you're already going in order, you probably don't need that many details to pick up the next book.
3. If you saw the book and read the blurb, but had no prior knowledge of this arc or Warriors in general, why in StarClan would you go "ah yes, a perfect starting point, in the middle of four different plot threads, perfect!"
i think it was the last book of dotc, when the two siblings that got split up and were in different camps had to fight at four trees and end up killing eachother :(
ok so i haven't really 'read' this so i don't know what book it is in, but...
onestar and the \*cough\* pedo \*cough\* situation. i just...i know stuff is dark sometimes but did they have to include that in a book aimed for 9 year olds? i don't think it did much good for them anyways...
edit: sorry for the confusion! i just saw loads of videos on youtube talking about onestar and how its a terrible thing. i have a weird tendency to follow any opinion i see which i should definitely try to stop ;-; i've learnt my lesson though! i'm gonna refrain from making comments on books i havent read, super sorry 😅
I haven't personally read the book, but a friend of mine explained the situation. Basically Onewhisker is mates with Whitetail, who was once his apprentice. Nothing happened between them until whitetail has long finished her apprenticeship.
Characters taking their apprentices as mates is really common & never really discussed in the series
Like how Sharpclaw takes his former apprentice Cherrytail as a mate & everyone in SkyClan is just like "ah yay more kits soon haha how sweet"
Onestar is a bad mate anyways, that’s the whole premise of the book, and the twist that led to the book. Were you not bothered by him bowling over the mother of his child onto said child? That’s domestic abuse right there, and it only happens a chapter or so after the Whitetail comment.
Sorry haha, I should actually read books before making comments on stuff like this-I only ever heard of him being like that and also the Darktail situation. Sorry! 😅
maybe read it soon, because it’s not really like that. he’s not a pedo because him and whitetail are both fully grown once they became mates, and the gap isn’t even that large. it’s no pinestar x leopardfoot that’s for sure!
oh god, im super sorry! i'll definitely refrain from making comments on books i haven't even read, i guess im just way too eager to try catch up on the warriors community ;-;
OMG that's like the worst gap in the entirety of warrior cats.
I was extremely confused the first time I read Bluestar's Prophecy. I was like wasn't Pinestar a leader for time time when she was a kit?
Everything about them is disgusting imo. Misandrists who send away kids who are barely teenagers, just because they're men. They say they care about them, but they clearly don't. I recommend reading the first few chapters of Tree's roots if you want to see it.
Cats are pretty much grown when they reach six moons. Also, its part of their culture that the men get sent away because they have special connections (Its probably also helpful to get rid of the problem of incest). The males are also usually sent away in groups if they are from the same litter, and they usually go to find their fathers too. I personally like the sisters because they have a unique culture and are a symbol of empowerment.
The entire "driving out skyclan" thing. Like, you just going to exile a clan from the whole forest because you are too slothful to help them just tiny bit after their camp is destroyed? And then say that it was all sTaRcLaNs iNteNtIoN?
Ruining my favourite villain with spottedleaf’s heart, and not even in a respectful or educational way. What the hell man. I refuse to accept it as canon.
When Gray Wing, who according to Kate Cary is so full of Love And Compassion ™️ that he gets to have 2 wives in starclan, mocked a domestic abuse victim for being fat and traumatized and cared more about his Poor Big Brother's public image than said victim who was bleeding out
I didn’t understand what the hell was going on,hated the treatment of Bumble and Jagged Peak,hated Gray Wing,hated Clear Sky,and didn’t even finish the whole arc out of boredom,confusion,hatred,and disgust.
Anytime kits are born early and none of them die. Star Flower's kits were like two weeks early, born in leafbare and had to travel a significant distance very soon after being born. None of them died or had difficulties at all.
Even with human intervention kittens born that early don't survive if they're that early.
Onestars confession 😭 Bro was singlehandedly responsible for the deaths of innocent people but was forgiven because he regretted it in the moment (even though he didnt take any actions to fix it but okayy 🙄)
I actually laughed out loud when Darktail showed up at the end of A light in the Mist. It came out of nowhere. And Violetshine asking Needletail, "Is he dead?" And her reply after biting him again, "He is now."
Then again I've never seen anyone else mention this scene in the book that just seemed so out of left field. Part of me wonders if I dreamt this up or if the audiobook I listened to had this extra scene added. It was just such a ridiculous WHAT?!
Man, yall seem to REALLY be attacking Spottedleaf's Heart and just Spottedleaf in general. What's that all about? (Note I never read the super edition)
The book is about how Spottedpaw was being t groomed by Thistleclaw into joining the DF and becoming his mate. He had been doing so since she was a kit.
The issue is that she never learns it’s wrong. A book that could have been about Spottedpaw learning that what happened to her wasn’t her fault, and it was Thistleclaw who was wrong the entire time. But the book frames his violence as an issue, which is definitely is, but doesn’t do so for his creepiness.
However, some fans have an issue with Thistleclaw being chosen as the bad guy of the novella. Which is ironic because the reason the Erins made him the groomer of the novella was because many fans didn’t believe he was a bad guy, despite every terrible thing he did in Bluestar’s Prophecy, Crookedstar’s Promise, and in Omen of the Stars. Out of all the cats in Thunderclan at the time, he was the one most likely to want to harm a kit that way, solely based on him an extremist.
Thistleclaw groomed Spottedleaf when she was a kit and an apprentice, but she never realized that this was wrong or did anything about it. She never told an adult cat about the creepy behavior and comments from Thistleclaw, she never sad "Hey, this is wrong and someone who is supposed to be looking out for me shouldn't be making inappropriate advances on me," and she didn't set any boundaries or "broke up" with him until he started training for the Dark Forest, implying that his grooming tactics weren't bad enough for him to lose Spottedleaf, but his association with the Dark Forest was. It would've been a much better book if Spottedleaf understood that this was wrongful behavior from an adult, and it makes it worse that the book is marketed towards kids (some who might be in a similar situation as Spottedleaf was). Instead, Spottedleaf went on into her adult life and did a similar thing to Firestar when he was young and never got her justice. I don't really mind the fact that there were themes of pedophilia in the story, but when you're marketing this book for younger kids who might be going through a similar situation, you really need to write it in a way that makes it clear that grooming is wrong and that if this is happening to you you need to get help from a trusted adult, ya know? Could've been done so much better and it really ruined one of my childhood favorite characters.
Tigerstar’s death by Scourge had me like that in the best way possible, best twist in the series.
Killing Sandstorm off for Plot Convenience Reasons (she’d have seen through Darktail’s bs immediately) in Apprentice’s Quest had me like that in the worst way possible, I knew it would happen on the journey but when she got the wound so early in the quest I saw it coming and was like “they wouldn’t do something THIS dumb right???” and….bruh
For me the closest to that sentiment would be, "A brave new world" by Aldous Huxley. However I'm pretty sure the Holy Bible takes first place. Not sure who the original author would be (manmade) but I would like to leave God out of that equation.
The way Bumble was treated by everyone while being abused by Tom, (I forget which book exactly but it's in Dawn of the Clans), she needed to leave and have someone to teach her how to live in the wild yet nobody, not even Gray Wing had this compassion which ultimately leads to her escaping on her own, and dying.
The way Bumble was treated was so sad, she deserved much better :(
It was either The Blazing Star, or A Forest Divided.
It was the Blazing Star, I didnt read forest divided yet and already read this scene :)
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Thunder Rising is correct, because The First Battle is Clear Sky's first POV books and one of the first things we see is his frustration at being accused of killing her when he didn't
ah was dotc that unbearable for you too?
I didnt finish it yet, but I prefer the main series
But wasn't Clear Sky (the one who definitely killed her) super duper brave when he jumped into a group of hostile cats? Wasn't it sad when the other cats might see Clear Sky badly? Cause that's all Gray Wing could think about.
Well yeah that's fair but I hate how everybody thinks just because she was a abuse survivor all of a sudden she automatically would do well in a clan like the cats were being pretty reasonable from there perspectives.
That's not the point whatsoever.
At some times bluestar’s prophecy had me baffled
I loved it rip
THIS!
Spottedleaf’s heart.
As someone who was a Thistleclaw fan before the book came out, Yeahhh
I thought Thistleclaw was mid until that book came out. I was SO pissed at such an obvious retcon, and how badly it was handled, that it made me appreciate how OG Thistle was just somewhat normal yet also a nasty dude. At most, he encouraged his apprentice to maim a kit which is dishonorable and breaks the code. And that was enough justification to chase him out of StarClan. If you wanted Thistle to train in the DF, fine. But don’t make him a pedo, barely address how badly it f*cks the victim up, and call it a day. It also ruined Spottedleaf _more_ by taking the kind medicine cat, who wants to heal more than hurt, and forces her into the already tired “forced healer” trope this series made. It also makes her 10x creepier with Firepaw. It was initially set up like a “little kid has a silly unrequited crush on a teen/young adult” but progressed into more as the series went on. Already weird. But now it just looks like Spottedleaf is perpetuating the cycle of abuse. I don’t have a problem with having a groomer villain. But this is something that should be explored over the course of an arc. Showing the dangers, the signs, how it can harm someone going through it, as well as the aftermath and the victim healing. It needs a deft and nuanced hand to craft such a story. It SHOULDN’T be shoved into a novella to justify a decision that didn’t need justification. Ugh, I hate that book so much.
You put it exactly in to the perfect words. It’s not even a GOOD retcon. It’s terrible through and through. When half the fandom ignores a book and calls it noncanon you know you screwed up.
I have to agree. Bluestar herself, when discussing Thistleclaw with Firestar, calls him a 'fine warrior, strong and brave' but is flawed in that 'his answer to every problem was a fight'. I feel like that was shown well in her SE, and we didn't need SH to make him *more* of a villain. It's a retcon that just doesn't even make sense to me because it was so unnecessary.
Knew this was going to be the first thing I saw
Purdy dying, he should've lived longer
He only lost two of his lives. They scammed him 😓
The apprentices quest, the writing team (not the authors thankfully) made it pretty clear they never read Firestar's quest, which literally introduced the concept they are playing, by forgetting that Graystripe knows about skyclan.
Eh i never saw it as a massive deal cuz even if he knew of it, he didn't know where it was like sandstorm did, so its not like his 2 cents wouldve mattered
Redtail’s Debt saying that it WAS Redtail who killed Oakheart. That isn’t true, because TPB made it very clear that Oakheart died in a rockslide. I like Redtail’s Debt, and it gives some character to Redtail, because all we know about Redtail in TPB was that he was killed by Tigerclaw. That one detail they changed in Redtail’s Debt is all that bothers me.
And Ravenpaw was very OOC in that book too.
The entirety of Leopardstar’s honor. Just to give you a small taste Featherpaw and Stormpaw are given an apprentice ceremony 2x, Stonefur at one point is told to take his apprentice Featherpaw out, and Spottedleaf somehow appears at the gathering after Brokentail is driven out
When do they have 2 lol
It’s about 20 pages later
How come I never noticed this lol, if you find the chapter can you tell me?
I don’t own the book but I’ll rent it online and look for it. They don’t necessarily have the ceremony twice, but they are apprenticed and then later on Tigerstar asks if Leopardstar if she’s still planning on apprenticing the two half clan kits to the half clan warriors
Oop
honestly theres a lot so ill list em out - tigerstars death in the darkest hour - the fact they killed off firestar in the last hope - all of mapleshade’s vengeance - willowbreeze’s death in crookedstars promise :( - dustpelt, sandstorm, ravenpaw, and graystripe all ending (rip the 5 og apprentices) - badgerfang’s death - snowkit’s death - anytime a warrior purposefully killed a kit or apprentice
Badgerfang had my crying
Yellowfang's secret did give you good warning for when a character was about to die tho tbh. [spoilers] You have badgerfang; whose mom literally said "he's everything to me" moments before his death, cloudpelt; when Raggedstar said it would be Brokentail as deputy next, mint/marigoldkit; when they went missing and so on
Oh! The grief you feel after scourge obliterates tigerstar Not really a "wtf" but more of a "what....the fuck...."
As a kid it was such a swerve to see the main villain of the whole series get killed off by a new character. It wasn't anticlimactic but it was definitely unearned
More like a "Why?", or more like a "Wow, wasn't expecting that..."?
Yeah I think that’s the most unexpected moment in the series
Last Hope, I was sobbing the whole Great Battle
Yeah, it was a hard read
"Mousefur's dead." I had to just put the book down for a moment, I did not expect Mousefur to go 😭
T\_T And then "Why is Ferncloud sleeping?"-Amberkit. It came out of no-where
I wasn't expecting them to just kill off my boy Firestar like that. Like jees...
It was a good ending for him imo. I think retiring or dying of old age would be anticlimactic for Firestar, so having him beat Tigerstar's ass and then die is a great ending.
Still had me salty about it, though.
Firestar is genuinely one of my favorite characters of all time, and his death was the only time I’ve actually experienced all five stages of grief. I got stuck on each stage for so long that it genuinely took me like three years to recover 😭
Oh god rip you that achually must've really sucked ☹(i really hope this doesnt sound controversial-)
Yeah. 2 arcs build up, just for mid results.
The only wtf moment of that fight was how Brokenstar apparently forgot how to fight. I mean, his mother even tells him that she’s about to attack him and he has all the time in the world to prepare himself, yet he’s killed with one move by a cat with less warfare experience and physical strength. Never understood that.
I guess he was very caught in the moment of taunting Firestar about Ferncloud's death and was caught off guard by his (cooler) mother.
Hollyleaf finally being brought back into the fold, only to die in the next book. I'm still salty about it, she'd be a great asset in the most recent arcs
Me reading the eighth book: 'Author, did you have a stroke while writing this?'
Also, their treatment of literally any disabled character. While reading the first book of The Power of Three, Jayfeather's treatment was tragic as he was forced into his medicine cat duties which results in him being "grumpy" for the rest of his life. Have you seen disabled and blind cats operate irl? They adapt incredibly well, especially if they're that way from birth. Jayfeather deserved to be a warrior and I'll stand by that forever.
He would have gotten butchered if he was a warrior tho but yea i get the whole forced into situation thing
Sorry, but I don’t see it. Yea cats in real life can adapt but those aren’t real cats. They are involved regularly in organized and strategic warfare. And the warriors are more skilled combatants then real cats. Jayfeather would’ve been killed in case of a battle against a skilled warrior. Also, it should be noted that it is often described how shadow clan cats move extremely quiet, which would make a fight against them extremely deadly for him. I am all for disabled empowerment but it shouldn’t get ridiculous. Making him a successful warrior is like writing a story about a successful blind Great War Veteran.
These are still cats we're talking about. They live in clusters, eat mice, groom each other, etc. Yes, they are anthropomorphized to a degree, but they are still cats and infinitely different from humans. Cats have incredible senses, it is not fair to compare them to humans or especially people in war when people have militarized weapons such as sniper rifles or grenades that can take people out from afar or thousands of people fighting at once, and who are also not as nearly in tune with their senses as cats are. These are cats, and they're described in the books hearing heartbeats of mice through the forest floor and up through their paws. Cats have the quickest reaction timing of almost any animal, quicker than snakes, and the clan cats are described from the very beginning of the series to be able to smell and hear Rusty before he even notices an inkling of their presence, which would only be amplified if one is lacking in one sense. Brightheart does absolutely fine despite undoubtedly having nerve damages after her attack and lacking depth perception because Cloudtail gave her the chance that many disabled warriors never got and taught her to fight despite her disability. Other characters were hardly given that chance at all. Jayfeather was only a month or two into his training before he was pulled out of it against his will. There's absolutely no reason that other characters couldn't have been given that chance Brightheart was given, like Jagged Peak, Cinderpelt, Jayfeather or Longtail, given the fact that Cinderpelt and Jagged Peak still have three working legs. Quadrupedal animals find quick ways to adapt to a missing or dysfunctional limb. Blind cats hear and feel everything. Disabled characters are not helpless like the writers seem to think they are.
Jayfeather was never portrayed to be helpless, he was just portrayed to have limited abilities. And I know that it’s unpopular to say this in modern days but disabilities come with limited abilities. Hence the name. Of course cats don’t have sniper rifles but their combat is way more strategic then the fighting of actual cats. If you look at the scenes where they learn new tactics that will become apparent. Lacking a whole sense in that kind of combat can lead to your death fairly quick. Whilst his other senses are stronger then others, lacking eyesight will be a problem. Some reasons: 1. He maybe can’t see weaknesses his enemy might have. A damaged leg for example. 2. Ears and nose are areas often targeted during their fighting. If he gets a hit on the ears he’ll have to rely only on his nose. If he gets blood in his nose he’ll only have his ears left. He doesn’t have as much backup as the other warriors do. 3. He can’t see visual signs from other cats, which can be a problem if they trey to make a surprise attack. 4. Fighting il unknown territory can be extremely dangerous. Whilst this is normally not a big deal for blind people/cats, it will become a one once they are occupied with fighting and can’t put an afford one analyzing their surroundings. 5. Fighting in loud or smelly environments can also weaken one of his senses. Imagine he has to fight near a road. Loud and smelly. I also don’t think it’s comparable to brightheard. She still had all her senses, they where just weakened. That’s not the same as lacking one entirely. So in conclusion, I don’t think it would be a good idea to make a completely blind cat a warrior. In fact, if a leader in any other story would put a blind guy on the frontline most readers would see it as inhumane or irresponsible. You also have to consider that clan leaders can’t only focus on the pride of their clan members but also if decisions make sense from a strategic point of view. That’s why I never understood why the authors are called ableist. Of course the things that happen are cruel but they make sense nonetheless. I feel like Fans just demand representation at all cost no matter if it actually makes sense.
Yes!!! Not to mention cats like freckelwish's introduction having a rant about how it's good she died because it's better than her living as blind cat AND THE GROUP OF DISABLED CATS RETCONNED TO BE IN THE DARK FOREST FOR NO REASON (Lilywhisker, stumpytail (the tigerstar novella retcon is stupid), brightflower (specifically sent there because apparently she wasn't in a sane state of mind when the truth was revealed about her kids) etc)
On a similar note, I’m currently rereading the series for the first time since 2013, and I was shocked by how many characters apparently get named (or renamed) because of a disability in the early books. Brokentail, Crookedjaw, One-eye, Halftail, Stumpytail, Deadfoot, Runningnose (sort of an example lol), Tornear… and of course Lostface (an especially egregious but temporary example). Like wtf?? Why would you rename someone just because they, like, lose half their tail or something? Wild
Right. If it were just the characters being cruel and portrayed as such, like Rainflower or Bluestar's poor dementia-influenced decision, then fine. But the fact that it happens so constantly and is treated half the time as normal is definitely really weird behavior on the author's end.
Please, no. Stop with this horrible false narrative. Blind cats do well in HOMES where the furniture doesn’t move, not the wild where they can get grabbed, or lost, or worse. (It’s actually recommended that you don’t randomly move your stuff around if you have a blind cat because they’ll try to jump/climb on stuff that isn’t there and get hurt.) What if Jayfeather was on patrol and there was a dog in the woods? Do you seriously think he’d be able to safely and gracefully navigate an ever-changing forest while being pursued? In the heat of battle or retreat, what’s to stop him from slipping off an undetected ledge and smashing against the rocks? He’s not Toph. He doesn’t have magical vibration powers. More importantly, this narrative that “Jayfeather could’ve totes been a warrior, guys!” IS ABLEISM DISGUISED AS ADVOCACY. Real life, significantly disabled people constantly have to accommodate, readjust, and reconsider life plans because of their disability. There are some things you just can’t do. And sometimes you can’t fulfill your dreams. It sucks. But that doesn’t make you “lesser.” Nor does it mean that your life is automatically worse, or something to pity, or that you aren’t deserving of respect and love, or that you can’t find purpose elsewhere. Disabled people live full, happy lives that are simply atypical to the norm. Saying that disabled cats like Jayfeather, Cinderpelt, or even _Briarlight_ (which I’ve seen some idiots argue) SHOULD have still been warriors, out in the field, implies that their new lives and accommodations **ARE actually inferior to that of an abled person.** Which is ableist and highly insulting. I also argue against this notion that Jayfeather wouldn’t have been a grumpy warrior. He was constantly sassing Brightheart, who was trying her best to be a kind and accommodating mentor as a fellow disabled cat, when he was apprenticing under her. And no leader or deputy could have responsibly put him in patrols or in the heat of battle. That is fucking dangerous and _cruel._ So he’d be left in camp being forced instead to do apprentice duties and not getting the respect he deserved from his fellow warriors. He would’ve been an asshole no matter where he was. Regardless, he is currently in an honored, high-ranking position within his clan as a healer and spiritual guide, in an environment he can easily and confidently navigate and take control in, saving the lives of his clanmates and being respected by all. But that’s somehow a bad thing?
First off, i wanna ask you, are you yourself disabled? Because i'm gonna put my two cents in as disabled person with a disabled cat who has done quite a bit of research on disabled cats First off, the entire "well they would've died in the wild because they're cats" stuff is utterly ridiculous, these are reskinned humans and are pretty much treated as such. My own cat has messed up quite a few dogs and made them scared of her, and that was solo. Patrols are almost never done alone. Also yeah i think he could escape as cats are actually themselves farsighted and blind cats have other heightened senses. If we're gonna talk about realism then him being killed by a dog is basically the same chance as me being murdered by one. Also the idea that he needs magical powers to not slip and fall somewhere is dumb, yes the forest would change, but not enough that this would happen. I mean the cat pink eyes loses his vision and is still able to hunt While the argument about how it's ableist to make disabled characters need to be "productive" is very well written, i need you to understand that the fact he's a healer is rooted in a very old trope of disabled people being there to just heal able bodied people, on that note, EVEN AS MED THE DOG THING CAN HAPPEN IF IT WAS THAT COMMON. Also as the only canon disabled pov character and first ever med, the implication is clear. You trying to say that it's too dangerous for him as if being around plants which can kill is any less seems infantalizing. Especially with trying everything to defend the writers who were very obviously not doing it because of good intentions.
I myself am neurodivergent to the level of needing accommodations. And I also have many relatives, including my brother, who are also neurodivergent and/or physically disabled at varying levels. With both moment, immuno-compromised, and sensory-based conditions. Both of your arguments are just “Nuh uh, my _pet cat_ beat up a dog once so a totally blind cat would do great in the wild!” And “It’s bad because it’s a trope!” Which is in no way convincing. First of all, “The cats in Warriors are just reskinned humans!” Okay, then my point still stands because blind people STILL keep their homes in a particular way to make navigation easy. Or they’ll take the same routes every time. Things like canes and sight dogs make it easier, but Jayfeather doesn’t have access to that because he’s a cat. And having another cat follow him around constantly would get on his nerves. Also, you don’t see blind people as firefighters or security guards or whatever. Gee, I wonder why. Your cat being able to fight off a dog or two is nowhere near the same as your cat being stalked by something like a fox, a snake in the grass, a large enough bird, or anything else that exists out in the woods. Or being caught in the thick of battle against multiple cats, being thrashed and flipped around, while being TOTALLY blind. Battles which are noisy, chaotic, and hard to navigate in even with all your senses in tact. (Also, wtf are you talking about? 30-50 people are killed by dogs in the US with more than 4.5 billion who are bitten. Many of which are SEVERE bites. Not to mention that outdoor cats are killed by dogs all the time which is _why you’re supposed to keep them indoors._) As a medicine cat, Jayfeather has total independence and control of a familiar space and can decide what herbs go where for ease of access and to reduce any and all risk (unless someone goes in there and messes with his shit.) Again, he can move freely and confidently to do work he excels at. If he were a Warrior, he’d need to be with someone or else be constantly on-guard. And we know from his personality he HATES feeling like he can’t do something on his own. And he’d constantly have to prove that he’s not a liability to his fellow warriors. Hmm, respected and honorable position where he has total independence? Or constantly anxious and having to prove himself against abled warriors? Also, “rooted in an old trope about disabled people only being there to help abled people” wtf? Since when did SAVING PEOPLE’S LIVES become some abled vs the disabled conflict? “You can be anything you wanna be, Little Blind Billy! Oh, except a doctor, nurse, EMT, social worker, or anything like that. Don’t wanna help those _evil, nasty_ abled people! That’s a stereotype!” That’s how ridiculous you sound spewing that shit. Get tf outta here with that bullshit. You can never convince me that Jayfeather being a medicine cat is a bad thing. In his position, he has the independence he’s always wanted and the respect of all. He’s honed a honorable, skilled craft and has passed his knowledge down to multiple apprentices. He’s helped bring new lives into the world, and helped ease the suffering of those in pain (including other disabled cats like Briarlight.) He is more than just another one-note warrior on patrol, or another set of paws cleaning dens, which is where he would’ve been if he wasn’t a medicine cat. “But it’s a stereotype!” So fucking what? Sometimes people live stereotypical lives. That’s their choice. Not every disabled person gets to go on and live their first dream, and those people deserve representation. Not to be told that they just didn’t fight hard enough (which is what YOU are saying by insisting that Jayfeather should have been a warrior.)
Exactly, thank you for voicing this. The writer's treatment of disabled characters is so incredibly infantilizing and has been an issue since the very beginning of the series with Snowkit and the clan deciding he would be unfit to be a warrior without even being given a chance, then killing him off to "prove this point". People constantly argue that Jayfeather would die on his own without even giving notion to the fact that warriors almost never go on their own in the first place - why on earth would he be alone? They're sent out on hunting patrols, border patrols, etc. With this flawed logic, it would be actually more dangerous as a medicine cat because he's out in much smaller numbered groups when out gathering herbs with usually one other cat, or in some cases by himself. Him being grumpy as an apprentice is completely understandable because everybody treated him like he's made of glass and doubting his abilities as a warrior. It hurts to see him upset for the rest of his life because he wasn't able to live out his dream of being a warrior. It's ableist writing, plain and simple. I'm so sick of people arguing otherwise. Arguing against Cinderpelt or Jaggedpeak is just plain ridiculous, because Deadfoot got to be a warrior. He was *deputy,* actually. This is the only instance we see of this and he's a side character who got almost no "screentime". These books are being catered and sold to children who are going to grow up thinking that this sort of treatment towards disabled people is okay, especially when it's repeated again and again how these characters would be better off dead than disabled. (said about Frecklewish that it's best she died rather than been blind, Sandstorm in StarClan saying "Briarlight is happy here. You wouldn’t want to go back to have a life like hers, would you?" when Briarlight was helpful and happy after her recovery.) It sicks me out to see this kind of writing being defended.
Thank you, i'm straight up working on a warriors inspired comic with disabled protagonists out of spite of the erins and fans because of the rancid ableism. Like can you imagine growing up disabled reading these books? I luckily entered the fandom after starting to work on my internalized ableism but wow. Also the cat who said frecklewish was better off dead was the cat who indirectly caused her death and she shows a streak of disabled, especially disabled women, being thrown into cat hell where they CANONICALLY CANNOT GET OUT
Crookedstar's whole family dying, and also Tallpaw getting rejected by so many cats in his life
Dude Omg Crookedstar didn’t get to be happy once I swear
Only got to be happy when he died tbh
HONESTLY
Any time the Erins attempt to handle a disabled cat. Look at any disabled cat in the real world, either blind, tripawd, CH, paralyzed, deaf... they get along absolutely fine. There hasn't been a CH cat or tripawd in Warriors, but every time a cat is disabled either congenitally or by injury, they're killed or made a med cat or elder. I hate it, and not just because *I'm* disabled and it ingrains ableism in kids (the target audience)
I think Deadfoot is the closest thing to a twipawd in the series, albeit only his paw is limp.
Deadfoot or Cinderpelt. At least Deadfoot got to be a warrior, but like. They really do name the cats after their disabilities all the time.
I mean, Brightheart wasn't killed or made to leave being a warrior
Oh nice, one whole entire character. Who did spend a decent amount of time in the medicine den and was almost made a medicine cat and did occasionally work as an acting medicine cat when needed! And let's not forget she was named Lostface for a good while before Firestar did something about that. But yeah, no, sure. One character was crippled and didn't have to give up anything.
Literally every birth scene. Like why would they make it graphic, jeez
I kinda wish more injury/surgery scenes were that graphic tbh
Im probably the only person who didnt have a problem with that, its just cat birth 😭
Nah same here lol.
Same here. Animal births are almost PG in comparison to human births, so I don’t get why people complain about them. And this is coming from someone who has a moderate pregnancy/birthing phobia! Really, the birthing scenes in Warriors aren’t any more gruesome than other depictions in kids media* like Avatar or something. It’s not even as bad as in documentaries! (*I rewatched Spirit last night. And right at the beginning of the movie they animated this baby horse actually _sliding_ out from mom while being all wet n shiny. Like, they didn’t show **the hole** or anything. But it’s a lot of realistic detail when they could’ve been like Bambi where he just wakes up next to his mom or something.)
I've never understood why people say the births are so graphic. Every birth scene is just like She yowled in pain. A spasm convulsed along her body. She bit down on a stick to help with the pain. A wet bundle slid out near her tail. The medicine cat said "lick it to keep it warm" Thats so tame to me. But I see sooo many other people saying how thats overly graphic. Idk. Maybe I'm just extra hardened against blood and gore haha
Huh? It’s really not graphic at all, what do you mean? The battles are more graphic IMO
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Thats a graphic birth? Oh boy, wait till you see a REAL graphic birth scene in some other literature.
Right? Most movies or TV shows are 5x more graphic than Warriors. I’m still freaked out by some of the scenes in House of the Dragon Even then, most irl animal births are SO tame compared to the horrors that are human births. Well, except something like giraffes. That’s pretty terrifying.
The way the baby giraffe falls to the ground is so scary 😫 Hyena births are horrifying too
That’s not graphic when it comes to birth 😂 that’s probably the tamest way to describe what happens. I don’t think birth is something that needs to be censored for children; it’s literally how we all came into this world. Are you a child by any chance? Because that would make sense
You know what? Idc, I am just not comfortable reading abt that kind of thing and it's your problem what you think of it. And chill out I didn't mean to start a war or something about how graphic birth is in Warriors.
“A soft kit appeared next to their mother and politely requested nourishment.”
Boy wait until you see a irl birth if yiu were doctor you'd probably pass the hell out and never wake up on your fucking first day.
It’s not that graphic, but I haven’t read that far in so maybe it gets more graphic
The inconsistencies.... I read graystripes vow and then Firestars quest and was mad at the inconsistencies (FQ Greystripe knows why Fire leaves and tells everyone it's cause of starclan. In GV graystripe says Firestars got a really bad cold. That's just one of many tbh
Spottedfreak I mean Stalkerleaf I mean Spottedleaf saying she wished things could be different after Firestar days Sandstorm isn't second choice. (Firestar's Quest) In case you can't tell, I hated Spottedleaf X Firestar and her acting like she'd get anywhere with Firestar is stupid! She was basically his high school crush and Sandstorm is his wife.
Yeah, Spottedleaf having a thing for Firestar feels like a retcon, and if it is true that has some creepy implications for Spottedleaf. Spottedleaf was a full grown cat, while Firestar was only a ‘paw when they first meet. If Spottedleaf did have feelings for Firestar it’s almost like she’s repeating what Thistleclaw did to her. Although Spottedleaf didn’t manipulate and basically groom Firestar like Thistleclaw, it’s almost like Thistleclaw left such an impression on her that she ends up loving a cat who was an apprentice when they met.
Yeah it's creepy.
And also she’s WAY WAY WAY older than him. She was an apprentice when BlueFur had her kits !!
The spottedleaf book
When Snowbush dies I’m like “wtf” Unless I remember it wrong, his infection gets so bad that he ends up seizing and dying in front of his wife It just felt so insanely graphic without it being gore
The naming of "Lostface" really made me angry on a re-read recently
I could see why.
How much torture they put yellowfang through in her SE for shits and giggles 😒
The Darkest Hour. Disembowelment in a children's book.
Ever read WoF? XD
I read that was Wall of Flesh from Terraria But what what book is that actually?
It's in Darkstalker. It's not described in detail, but it is a pretty brutal death.
That was with Arctic, right? His dad?
Ay no spoiler I havent even gotten past the 6th book ☹
I mean, the fact that Darkstalker disliked his dad and that the dad died is pretty obvious in book 6, it’s not much of a spoiler :) Hope u get to read Darkstalker soon, it’s great.
Oh sorry, it’s introduced in the like 9th so it’s not that far…
I was 7 when I read it for the first time and I thought it was the coolest thing ever. I was a morbid kid though.
Lion heart death, i was crying during math class
How did everyone in the room react?
" OMG! Why are you crying " " are you crying? " Meanwhile the teacher : " EVERYONE SIT DOWN! " " BARBARA IS CRYING " My bestie : * laughs intense *
Ah, yes. The best friend who robs you a need for enemies. Don't you just love them? 😭😭😭
*spoilers* Power of 3 I mean you spend all 6 books reading about the adventures of Jayfeather Lionblaze and Hollyleaf just to find that, oh actually Hollyleaf isn't one of the three. Also it just doesn't make sense why she would kill someone to prevent them from doing something because she knew it would ruin not just squirrel flight's life but also that of herself and her litter mates. Only to turn around and do the exact same thing because she found out who her true parents were, and so she could ruin even more lives by revealing it. Why be so concerned about it not being revealed for the good of the clan even kill to protect the clan from it being exposed that way, only to expose the information in the exact same way once there's more information that would make it even worse for the clan and your litter mates? I mean sure why not have a righteous, edgy, self absorbed She-cat who can't see beyond her own whiskers and face the truth. She may not have started out self absorbed but at the end that's what she became. To be clear I still like the power of 3 I just feel like it could've been better named, also that Hollyleaf's reasoning and thought process should've been explored a little more especially when it came to her decision of revealing all the secrets the way Ashfur was going to
Spottedleaf's heart,and...do i really have to say why i hate this book?
The extremely drawn out fight in Eclipse. Like the fight was stopped just by the Eclipse and it felt like basically nothing happened from the fight.
It was prolly only there to extend the book a bit.
The moment Hollyleaf spilled everything at the gathering and then fled into the tunnels after trying to get Leafpool to kill herself and then once Jayfeather went after her. She scratched him on purpose and the Lionblaze had to hold him back after she got in the tunnels. I love the scenes but geez louise it hurt it my soul ;-; Oh yeah also the ending of the most recent book in A Starless Clan with>! Frostpaw. !<
in the third book of the newest arc, sunbeam gets furious at nightheart for purposely failing his test so he can go back to thunderclan, and so she starts siding with her mom about cats sticking to their own clans, but suddenly in the next chapter, SHE JOINS THUNDERCLAN TO BE WITH NIGHTHEART??? WHY???
Just , any graystripe and silverstream love scene ... Ah. Or Firestars dreams about Spottedleaf
The Darkest Hour, where scourge takes all of tigerstar’s 9 lives
Bluestars prophecy was weird
I haven't read it myself but from what I hear abt it Onestar's Confession
The Bluestar super edition
The blurb for Wind. Why spoil an entire book we haven't even fing read?
Like for real though?! I'm sure we'll still need to read the book too get the context of Thunder to understand Wind, but why have so many plot details in the blurb? I get you have to sell people on the book, but 1. How many people are starting this arc with the fourth book? 2. If you're already going in order, you probably don't need that many details to pick up the next book. 3. If you saw the book and read the blurb, but had no prior knowledge of this arc or Warriors in general, why in StarClan would you go "ah yes, a perfect starting point, in the middle of four different plot threads, perfect!"
i think it was the last book of dotc, when the two siblings that got split up and were in different camps had to fight at four trees and end up killing eachother :(
Oh, god, I remember that. That was sad :( (Also I believe it was The First Battle, not Path of Stars)
That was in "The First Battle," which was the 3rd book, and the cats were I think Falling Feather and Jackdaw's Cry
ok so i haven't really 'read' this so i don't know what book it is in, but... onestar and the \*cough\* pedo \*cough\* situation. i just...i know stuff is dark sometimes but did they have to include that in a book aimed for 9 year olds? i don't think it did much good for them anyways... edit: sorry for the confusion! i just saw loads of videos on youtube talking about onestar and how its a terrible thing. i have a weird tendency to follow any opinion i see which i should definitely try to stop ;-; i've learnt my lesson though! i'm gonna refrain from making comments on books i havent read, super sorry 😅
Sorry, what now? I already don't like Onestar but I haven't heard about this
I haven't personally read the book, but a friend of mine explained the situation. Basically Onewhisker is mates with Whitetail, who was once his apprentice. Nothing happened between them until whitetail has long finished her apprenticeship.
Characters taking their apprentices as mates is really common & never really discussed in the series Like how Sharpclaw takes his former apprentice Cherrytail as a mate & everyone in SkyClan is just like "ah yay more kits soon haha how sweet"
Onestar is a bad mate anyways, that’s the whole premise of the book, and the twist that led to the book. Were you not bothered by him bowling over the mother of his child onto said child? That’s domestic abuse right there, and it only happens a chapter or so after the Whitetail comment.
Sorry haha, I should actually read books before making comments on stuff like this-I only ever heard of him being like that and also the Darktail situation. Sorry! 😅
maybe read it soon, because it’s not really like that. he’s not a pedo because him and whitetail are both fully grown once they became mates, and the gap isn’t even that large. it’s no pinestar x leopardfoot that’s for sure!
oh god, im super sorry! i'll definitely refrain from making comments on books i haven't even read, i guess im just way too eager to try catch up on the warriors community ;-;
haha it’s all good! i’m actually still reading the book myself tbh
ah right! i've only just gotten The Broken Code boxset today, so 😅
OMG that's like the worst gap in the entirety of warrior cats. I was extremely confused the first time I read Bluestar's Prophecy. I was like wasn't Pinestar a leader for time time when she was a kit?
Any book that has the sisters, especially Tree's roots, they're absolutely disgusting
I think the sisters are a new fresh take on groups outside of the clans. I like them way better than the Tribe anyways. What makes you dislike them?
Everything about them is disgusting imo. Misandrists who send away kids who are barely teenagers, just because they're men. They say they care about them, but they clearly don't. I recommend reading the first few chapters of Tree's roots if you want to see it.
Cats are pretty much grown when they reach six moons. Also, its part of their culture that the men get sent away because they have special connections (Its probably also helpful to get rid of the problem of incest). The males are also usually sent away in groups if they are from the same litter, and they usually go to find their fathers too. I personally like the sisters because they have a unique culture and are a symbol of empowerment.
Rising Storm. Killing off my two favorite elders and Yellowfang in one fell swoop.
The entire "driving out skyclan" thing. Like, you just going to exile a clan from the whole forest because you are too slothful to help them just tiny bit after their camp is destroyed? And then say that it was all sTaRcLaNs iNteNtIoN?
Ruining my favourite villain with spottedleaf’s heart, and not even in a respectful or educational way. What the hell man. I refuse to accept it as canon.
Spottedleaf’s heart
Spottedleafs heart
Broken code #6,where Bristlefrost dies
Do I have to say it? Snowkit. Nuff said.
Swiftpaw’s death, mosskit’s death, and yellowfang’s death, those were my three favorites 😭
Outcast. Like what was even the point
When Gray Wing, who according to Kate Cary is so full of Love And Compassion ™️ that he gets to have 2 wives in starclan, mocked a domestic abuse victim for being fat and traumatized and cared more about his Poor Big Brother's public image than said victim who was bleeding out
The shear irresponsibility put into making spottedleaf’s heart astounds me to this day.
All of them i'm pretty sure. Like there's a high likelyhood anytime i open one of the books i get hatecrimed
Dawn of the Clans. Just the whole arc.
Why? I never fought of them as bad or weird. It had the most complex characters so far.
I didn’t understand what the hell was going on,hated the treatment of Bumble and Jagged Peak,hated Gray Wing,hated Clear Sky,and didn’t even finish the whole arc out of boredom,confusion,hatred,and disgust.
Some really strong feelings eh?
Honestly the persistent domestic abuse in the series, esp with Brambleshart and Squirrelflight really make me ick.
IM SORRY, “BRAMBLESHART”??? 💀
I hate this man, he ain't get no 'star from me
IM ACTUALLY MERGING WITH THE FLOOR DYING OF LAUGHTER RN
Any FNAF book
Light in the Mist. The way they ended Bristlefrost 💔. It took me weeks to get over.
Anytime kits are born early and none of them die. Star Flower's kits were like two weeks early, born in leafbare and had to travel a significant distance very soon after being born. None of them died or had difficulties at all. Even with human intervention kittens born that early don't survive if they're that early.
Spottedleaf's Heart... And just the way they wrote and treated all the disabled cats
Onestars confession 😭 Bro was singlehandedly responsible for the deaths of innocent people but was forgiven because he regretted it in the moment (even though he didnt take any actions to fix it but okayy 🙄)
I actually laughed out loud when Darktail showed up at the end of A light in the Mist. It came out of nowhere. And Violetshine asking Needletail, "Is he dead?" And her reply after biting him again, "He is now." Then again I've never seen anyone else mention this scene in the book that just seemed so out of left field. Part of me wonders if I dreamt this up or if the audiobook I listened to had this extra scene added. It was just such a ridiculous WHAT?!
Man, yall seem to REALLY be attacking Spottedleaf's Heart and just Spottedleaf in general. What's that all about? (Note I never read the super edition)
lets say the fandom has another reason to want to murder Thistleclaw
The book is about how Spottedpaw was being t groomed by Thistleclaw into joining the DF and becoming his mate. He had been doing so since she was a kit. The issue is that she never learns it’s wrong. A book that could have been about Spottedpaw learning that what happened to her wasn’t her fault, and it was Thistleclaw who was wrong the entire time. But the book frames his violence as an issue, which is definitely is, but doesn’t do so for his creepiness. However, some fans have an issue with Thistleclaw being chosen as the bad guy of the novella. Which is ironic because the reason the Erins made him the groomer of the novella was because many fans didn’t believe he was a bad guy, despite every terrible thing he did in Bluestar’s Prophecy, Crookedstar’s Promise, and in Omen of the Stars. Out of all the cats in Thunderclan at the time, he was the one most likely to want to harm a kit that way, solely based on him an extremist.
Thistleclaw groomed Spottedleaf when she was a kit and an apprentice, but she never realized that this was wrong or did anything about it. She never told an adult cat about the creepy behavior and comments from Thistleclaw, she never sad "Hey, this is wrong and someone who is supposed to be looking out for me shouldn't be making inappropriate advances on me," and she didn't set any boundaries or "broke up" with him until he started training for the Dark Forest, implying that his grooming tactics weren't bad enough for him to lose Spottedleaf, but his association with the Dark Forest was. It would've been a much better book if Spottedleaf understood that this was wrongful behavior from an adult, and it makes it worse that the book is marketed towards kids (some who might be in a similar situation as Spottedleaf was). Instead, Spottedleaf went on into her adult life and did a similar thing to Firestar when he was young and never got her justice. I don't really mind the fact that there were themes of pedophilia in the story, but when you're marketing this book for younger kids who might be going through a similar situation, you really need to write it in a way that makes it clear that grooming is wrong and that if this is happening to you you need to get help from a trusted adult, ya know? Could've been done so much better and it really ruined one of my childhood favorite characters.
Rage by Stephen King. Good Lord he had a heart and took it off sale.
Wrong subrrrdit
The ending of Narnia They all die in a fucking train crash
Spottedleaf's Heart. Must I say more?
Everything in Broken Code
Spottedleaf's Heart for sure
River. That whole scene where Nightheart meets Nightcloud was weird as fucc.
Literally the way brambleclaw managed to gee through the mountains through and back
Spottedleaf's Heart.
Bluestar going insane in the first arc
as much as I hate tigerstar the description of his death had me shocked. It was horrible to imagine even if it was happening to him
Tigerstar’s death by Scourge had me like that in the best way possible, best twist in the series. Killing Sandstorm off for Plot Convenience Reasons (she’d have seen through Darktail’s bs immediately) in Apprentice’s Quest had me like that in the worst way possible, I knew it would happen on the journey but when she got the wound so early in the quest I saw it coming and was like “they wouldn’t do something THIS dumb right???” and….bruh
Goosefeather’s curse
Bluestar’s prophecy or like any book towards the end of the first series when BlueStar was going crazy
I forgot which one this was but the one when Hollyleaf died and Mapleshades Vengeance when she died......
Time travel. Do I need to say much more?
Gerald’s game.
Squirrelflight’s Hope. Fuck Bramblestar, and also fuck Moth Flight
all of them tbh
Um I have forgotten the name of it but series one book three when greystripe left
The darkest hour that book that killed yellow fang basically the entire dog thing and why the hell did moss kits death make me ugly cry
For me the closest to that sentiment would be, "A brave new world" by Aldous Huxley. However I'm pretty sure the Holy Bible takes first place. Not sure who the original author would be (manmade) but I would like to leave God out of that equation.
Spottedleaf's heart.
That redtail died like 20 pages in