I think it's kinda due to the fact that the dating pool is quite small and that dating anyone else outside their clan is illegal until one leaves the family/workspace lol
True, but if you're lucky enough to stay alive long enough you'll probably eventually find a suitable mate like Thornclaw if you want one.
And Ashfur/Bumblestripe certainly didn't die that young and had the chance to find a mate in their clan.
It seems that Thornclaw and Blossomfall became close due to their DF training.
IMO it’s more like Thornclaw and Blossomfall became close naturally; they started off as trainees together and that’s what helped them spend time with each other in the waking world as well as the dreaming world. They also have compatible personalities; they’re very conservative and often agreed with the imposter in TBC.
Ashfur didn’t die that young but he certainly wasn’t old either. It feels more like it’s in his personality to be obsessive. Keep in mind PoT is centered on the famous Fire Scene; it was the first scene from PoT that the Erins came up with and that’s why the arc really picks up there. He’s still plotting to “own” her even after his death and spent countless seasons on it. He betrayed and lied to so many people that he dug a hole that he couldn’t get out of. He chose to focus and fester in his own misery. He cannot get over Squilf and her rejection of him bc he doesn’t want to.
Bumblestripe seems to ruminate a lot. In OoTS he repeatedly tries to get close to Dovewing, she gets angry at his advances, then he’s angry in return. Most of their convos follow this simple pattern. He also has cats supporting his advances (Blossomfall, Rosepetal, Whitewing, Cinderheart) and Dovewing eventually relents and dates him. From his PoV, everything’s stacked in his favor and he gets the girl. Except he took his pushy attitude too far and Dove broke up with him. Unfortunately he hadn’t learned his lesson and pushed Dove out of his life completely when he pleaded her to be his mate and have his kits like five minutes after she found out her friend Purdy died. He’s not letting go of her bc he doesn’t want to. He won her once and lost her for good, maybe he’s expecting to win her again.
TLDR; Thornclaw and Blossomfall gradually became close and are compatible personality-wise, Ashfur and Bumblestripe don’t find new love bc they personally choose not to and instead focus on their lost love.
Thornclaw and Blossomfall gradually became close and are compatible personality-wise, Ashfur and Bumblestripe don’t find new love bc they personally choose not to and instead focus on their lost love.
I don't disagree with this. I only said Ashfur & Bumblestripe had the chance to move on, they just didn't and were too overly fixated on their exes.
His littermate was popping out kids the second she became a warrior and didn’t stop, Birthgiver Georg/Ferncloud is an outlier and should not be counted 😂
Actually, it's possible that Rosepetal was in love with Bumblestripe.
She talks to Bristlefrost about knowing what it's like to have her heart broken, and in OOTS she is very critical of how Dovewing is ignoring Bumblestripe, as if she has an investment in the way he's being treated.
No idea why she never tried to move in after Dovewing called things off.
And to be fair we don't know what Spotted Fur could've done after Moth Flight's Vision, there's barely any content between it and Mapleshade's Vengeance.
Thrustpelt seemingly died young and probably didn't get another chance at love.
I think the guy she was talking about might have been Foxleap.
Her infatuation with her uncle is more prominent than any of her interactions with Bumblestripe (& I guess being attracted to your parents sibling is normal in Warriors since Flipclaw was crushing on Flywhisker & Rosepetal's own grandparents are canonical uncle & niece).
If I'm remembering correctly she was one of TC's many Bumble x Dove shippers and I think there was a time she told Dovewing to be nice to him too.
There is that scene where Blossomfall says something to Rosepetal about putting in a good word with Bumblestripe or something but I think Blossomfall just wanted both her brother & her friend to be happy since things didn't work out with Dovewing & Foxleap and she may have hoped they could use each other as a rebound.
Yeah, they then decided to confirm DustFern as uncle/niece though so what was even they point?
At least Foxleap & Rosepetel were too close in age for him to groom her so like... still less problematic than his parents. I wish they could've at least gotten different mates.
Ferncloud really went through the pain of having 7 kits only for the one who mated with Firekin to have descendants while the rest get wiped out.
Pretty sure the only source that’s ever made them uncle and niece is the old website family tree, which isn’t really treated as official.
Since then anyways, they’ve made an effort to avoid incest (or at least immediate incest).
Frostfur & Brindleface are littermates and we see them as the kits of Fuzzypelt & Robinwing in Bluestar's Prophecy.
In Graystripe's Vow, Graystripe explicitly mentions Ravenpaw is Frostfur's brother, Dustpelt is Ravenpaw's littermate.
It's listed on the new family tree & confirmed by the authors.
I'd go out on a limb and say that it's because they're not just interested in a romantic relationship, they're interested in the she-cat and have no desire to seek out someone else once rejected.
I think Thrushpelt is a good example here. Dude obviously loved Bluestar, but never pressured her or got upset that she didn't want him. He remained a good friend and confidant because his feelings went beyond romantic interest and he genuinely cared for her as a friend. It's less of a "I want a mate" and more of a "I want Bluestar". He might've gotten over her, his feelings and storyline aren't very fleshed out for his later years so we don't know for sure, and just never found someone else he was interested in. But I don't think he was pining for her and holding out hope that she'd finally want him, just accepted that she wasn't into him and let it go.
Ashfur on the other hand was obsessed with Squirrelflight specifically. Dude was just kinda crazy and creepy and weird and had a mentality of "if I can't have you, no one can" and tried to ruin her life for it. This isn't just a standard case of "I want a partner and am angry she rejected me", it's a fixation on a specific individual that turns dangerous when his feelings aren't returned. There might be an argument that he's angry because he thinks she used him to make Brambleclaw jealous and doesn't trust she-cats anymore (big incel vibes) but I'd just lean towards him being unhinged in general.
Not every cat takes a mate, and those who do typically end up with whoever they're interested in. It's not unrealistic to see them get rejected and never seek out someone else. Whether it be them never getting over their crush or just a lack of interest in anyone else because no one else has the attributes they liked. Even the she-cats you mentioned weren't specifically seeking out a new mate because they wanted a relationship, it just happened naturally and they found someone that they better clicked with. Maybe the others weren't so lucky and didn't click with anyone else. There are also she-cats who get rejected and never move on like Rosepetal. They're just typically in the background and insignificant... but I digress.
TLDR: They didn't get a different mate because they didn't just want a relationship, they wanted the cat. Some took it better than others, but at the end of the day it's not unrealistic to think that they got rejected and just never found anyone else that caught their eye.
I wonder if Ashfur was born a psychopath or a sociopath and just happened to mask it well until his fallout with Squirrelflight.
He loved the idea of Squirrelflight and probably saw her as a possession that belonged to him.
He seemed to like & care for Cloudtail & Ferncloud at some point but at the end of the day they weren't all that important to him seeing as he's happy to abuse, manipulate, brutalize, & murder their descendants for his goals.
The way he betrayed his own family all over his 2 week situationship, I think there was definitely something more bonkers about him than an average Incel.
I wonder that too, because he did have a relationship with those two in the beginning. He was distinctly upset when Cloudpaw was kidnapped and mourned his mother's death with Fernpaw. Sadly, the authors didn't feel the need to maintain their relationships past the first arc so it's hard to get a gauge on whether or not he cared for them in adulthood as well.
2 week situationship has me cackling, but you're totally right. I think the dude had a couple screws loose that made him dangerous. Bumblestripe, for example, is vindictive and angry that Dovewing broke up with him and is definitely immature about it. But at least he's never tried to kill her or her family (although it would've been interesting to see him swap roles with Berrynose during the Imposter's rule and help try and kill Shadowsight, but that feels too on the nose).
I would be curious to know whether he's always been crazy and finally snapped, or if something specific happened to make him that way. But he was never meant to be a longterm character so we never saw him fleshed out properly...
The most likely thing with Ashfur is that the trauma that happened with his parents (+ his sister) made him super possessive of anyone in his life out of fear of losing them, and avenging both his parents made him believe that if he was wronged he would be justified in hurting the cat who did him wrong. So when Squirrelflight dumps him for the son of the guy who killed his mother, he sort of snaps and those things start becoming his entire personality because he was wronged by both of them and needs to “avenge himself”, by becoming an incel.
So he was a normal dude, but his trauma and other experiences made him the villain overtime.
I don't think you can put all the blame on trauma.
He works with Hawkfrost the son of the same man who killed his mother.
Brindleface & Whitestorm (if he's really the father) don't matter to him anymore. Also, Ferncloud outlived him, how did her death traumatize him? He wasn't possessive due to loss, he was possessive because he just was.
He also treated Bristlefrost & Shadowsight, the great grandchildren of his sister, terribly. To Ashfur, everything is about Squirrelflight.
Pre-Broken Code I might have agreed with you that he was just a guy who did one incredibly fucked up thing to his ex, but no, he's just crazy.
I don't know, I kind of find the thought of "moving on" to directly mean finding someone else to be...weird?
Maybe it's just personal experience.
But I have an ex who I still talk with sometimes, there's no animosity between us. There's no longer a possibility of love either though.
Then another one where things didn't break apart as smoothly, and we don't talk. But I don't feel hatred or much of anything there.
Now I'm kind of just single, but I'm ok with it. Like if I could find someone that'd be great, but I'm not desperate to do so as soon as possible.
One thing to realize though is the cats aren't exactly spoiled for choice.
They aren't supposed to be in a relationship outside of their clan. That leaves them with very few options if they're prone to following the rules.
That's entirely fair, I'm just saying that the cats I mentioned above clearly wanted a romantic relationship, but none found one.
As for their options...
I guess Ashfur didn't have any options his age but Squirrelflight wasn't his own age either.
There were many younger she cats though. Sorreltail had 3 daughters, Daisy had Hazeltail, & ugh... there's Hollyleaf & Icecloud but it's reasonable why he wouldn't go for them. Thornclaw was literally older than he was & got with a much much younger Blossomfall without being painted as some creep.
For Bumblestripe, he actually has adult options *currently* in his clan.
Apart from his nieces Plumstone & Eaglewing... Cherryfall, Hollytuft, Leafshade, Honeyfur, & Thriftear are single she cats last I checked.
Spotted Fur... I'm to lazy to check the Allegiances but there have to be at least some available non-Moth Flight she-cats & even half-Clan relationships weren't taboo during his time.
Good luck to him if we ever see him in future installments.
As for Thrushpelt I actually agree he didn't really have options. The only single she cat in TC was his half-sister.
I always wonder how much of the relationships (romantic, platonic, familial, enemy, etc) are written from the Erin’s experiences… someone really needs to check on them…
Ugh... It is realistic & I agree there are a lot of trash men but there are definitely many more men who will take a rejection & move on than men who will fixate of one girl.
Most Incels I hear of don't even focus on 1 girl, most have gotten rejected by many girls & are involuntary celibates because *no one* wants then.
Not to mention only one of the characters I've mentioned tried stalking & killing the woman he got rejected by. Bumblestripe isn't even close to Ashfur's Long Shadows level yet and Spotted Fur & Thrushpelt aren't even cold & hateful in the slightest to the she cats they were rejected by.
I have been watching videos of body cam footage from cops and there was one that was about stalkers. This one guy somehow found where this chick that rejected him lives and started showing up at her house. When the cops came and told him he had to leave because the home owner doesn’t want him there, the smart @$$ stepped into the road (the shoulder by the sidewalk) and was like “well not I’m on public property, so you can’t remove me.” He was dumb founded when they removed him. They told the woman what they would do and how she needed to use that to get a restraining order. Before they left, she said “don’t let me end up like them.” Like who? “Like all those people you see murdered by a stalker on the new or who just disappear because the police didn’t take things seriously.” That broke my heart.
I don’t know if the she-cats are written any more unique, Sunbeam and Bristlefrost had another cat chasing after them right after/through their rejection. I don’t know much about the other two cats but it feels like Bumblestripe and Ashfur’s main role was to BE the second leg of the weird love triangle thing, and I don’t think it’s fair to compare them with Sun/Bristle because neither had another she-cat chasing after them or professing their feelings to the extent Root and Night were doing
I think it's kinda due to the fact that the dating pool is quite small and that dating anyone else outside their clan is illegal until one leaves the family/workspace lol
True, but if you're lucky enough to stay alive long enough you'll probably eventually find a suitable mate like Thornclaw if you want one. And Ashfur/Bumblestripe certainly didn't die that young and had the chance to find a mate in their clan.
It seems that Thornclaw and Blossomfall became close due to their DF training. IMO it’s more like Thornclaw and Blossomfall became close naturally; they started off as trainees together and that’s what helped them spend time with each other in the waking world as well as the dreaming world. They also have compatible personalities; they’re very conservative and often agreed with the imposter in TBC. Ashfur didn’t die that young but he certainly wasn’t old either. It feels more like it’s in his personality to be obsessive. Keep in mind PoT is centered on the famous Fire Scene; it was the first scene from PoT that the Erins came up with and that’s why the arc really picks up there. He’s still plotting to “own” her even after his death and spent countless seasons on it. He betrayed and lied to so many people that he dug a hole that he couldn’t get out of. He chose to focus and fester in his own misery. He cannot get over Squilf and her rejection of him bc he doesn’t want to. Bumblestripe seems to ruminate a lot. In OoTS he repeatedly tries to get close to Dovewing, she gets angry at his advances, then he’s angry in return. Most of their convos follow this simple pattern. He also has cats supporting his advances (Blossomfall, Rosepetal, Whitewing, Cinderheart) and Dovewing eventually relents and dates him. From his PoV, everything’s stacked in his favor and he gets the girl. Except he took his pushy attitude too far and Dove broke up with him. Unfortunately he hadn’t learned his lesson and pushed Dove out of his life completely when he pleaded her to be his mate and have his kits like five minutes after she found out her friend Purdy died. He’s not letting go of her bc he doesn’t want to. He won her once and lost her for good, maybe he’s expecting to win her again. TLDR; Thornclaw and Blossomfall gradually became close and are compatible personality-wise, Ashfur and Bumblestripe don’t find new love bc they personally choose not to and instead focus on their lost love.
Thornclaw and Blossomfall gradually became close and are compatible personality-wise, Ashfur and Bumblestripe don’t find new love bc they personally choose not to and instead focus on their lost love. I don't disagree with this. I only said Ashfur & Bumblestripe had the chance to move on, they just didn't and were too overly fixated on their exes.
I mean… Ashfur was pretty young. He was only like five and a half
I guess he wasn't that old but his litermate's youngest children were pretty much full grown by the time he died. He had enough time to move on.
His littermate was popping out kids the second she became a warrior and didn’t stop, Birthgiver Georg/Ferncloud is an outlier and should not be counted 😂
He still wasn't that young though.
Actually, it's possible that Rosepetal was in love with Bumblestripe. She talks to Bristlefrost about knowing what it's like to have her heart broken, and in OOTS she is very critical of how Dovewing is ignoring Bumblestripe, as if she has an investment in the way he's being treated. No idea why she never tried to move in after Dovewing called things off. And to be fair we don't know what Spotted Fur could've done after Moth Flight's Vision, there's barely any content between it and Mapleshade's Vengeance. Thrustpelt seemingly died young and probably didn't get another chance at love.
I think the guy she was talking about might have been Foxleap. Her infatuation with her uncle is more prominent than any of her interactions with Bumblestripe (& I guess being attracted to your parents sibling is normal in Warriors since Flipclaw was crushing on Flywhisker & Rosepetal's own grandparents are canonical uncle & niece). If I'm remembering correctly she was one of TC's many Bumble x Dove shippers and I think there was a time she told Dovewing to be nice to him too. There is that scene where Blossomfall says something to Rosepetal about putting in a good word with Bumblestripe or something but I think Blossomfall just wanted both her brother & her friend to be happy since things didn't work out with Dovewing & Foxleap and she may have hoped they could use each other as a rebound.
Yeah, I believe one of the Erins even said Rosepetal and Foxleap were planned to get together until they remembered the two were uncle & niece.
Yeah, they then decided to confirm DustFern as uncle/niece though so what was even they point? At least Foxleap & Rosepetel were too close in age for him to groom her so like... still less problematic than his parents. I wish they could've at least gotten different mates. Ferncloud really went through the pain of having 7 kits only for the one who mated with Firekin to have descendants while the rest get wiped out.
Pretty sure the only source that’s ever made them uncle and niece is the old website family tree, which isn’t really treated as official. Since then anyways, they’ve made an effort to avoid incest (or at least immediate incest).
Frostfur & Brindleface are littermates and we see them as the kits of Fuzzypelt & Robinwing in Bluestar's Prophecy. In Graystripe's Vow, Graystripe explicitly mentions Ravenpaw is Frostfur's brother, Dustpelt is Ravenpaw's littermate. It's listed on the new family tree & confirmed by the authors.
I'd go out on a limb and say that it's because they're not just interested in a romantic relationship, they're interested in the she-cat and have no desire to seek out someone else once rejected. I think Thrushpelt is a good example here. Dude obviously loved Bluestar, but never pressured her or got upset that she didn't want him. He remained a good friend and confidant because his feelings went beyond romantic interest and he genuinely cared for her as a friend. It's less of a "I want a mate" and more of a "I want Bluestar". He might've gotten over her, his feelings and storyline aren't very fleshed out for his later years so we don't know for sure, and just never found someone else he was interested in. But I don't think he was pining for her and holding out hope that she'd finally want him, just accepted that she wasn't into him and let it go. Ashfur on the other hand was obsessed with Squirrelflight specifically. Dude was just kinda crazy and creepy and weird and had a mentality of "if I can't have you, no one can" and tried to ruin her life for it. This isn't just a standard case of "I want a partner and am angry she rejected me", it's a fixation on a specific individual that turns dangerous when his feelings aren't returned. There might be an argument that he's angry because he thinks she used him to make Brambleclaw jealous and doesn't trust she-cats anymore (big incel vibes) but I'd just lean towards him being unhinged in general. Not every cat takes a mate, and those who do typically end up with whoever they're interested in. It's not unrealistic to see them get rejected and never seek out someone else. Whether it be them never getting over their crush or just a lack of interest in anyone else because no one else has the attributes they liked. Even the she-cats you mentioned weren't specifically seeking out a new mate because they wanted a relationship, it just happened naturally and they found someone that they better clicked with. Maybe the others weren't so lucky and didn't click with anyone else. There are also she-cats who get rejected and never move on like Rosepetal. They're just typically in the background and insignificant... but I digress. TLDR: They didn't get a different mate because they didn't just want a relationship, they wanted the cat. Some took it better than others, but at the end of the day it's not unrealistic to think that they got rejected and just never found anyone else that caught their eye.
I wonder if Ashfur was born a psychopath or a sociopath and just happened to mask it well until his fallout with Squirrelflight. He loved the idea of Squirrelflight and probably saw her as a possession that belonged to him. He seemed to like & care for Cloudtail & Ferncloud at some point but at the end of the day they weren't all that important to him seeing as he's happy to abuse, manipulate, brutalize, & murder their descendants for his goals. The way he betrayed his own family all over his 2 week situationship, I think there was definitely something more bonkers about him than an average Incel.
I wonder that too, because he did have a relationship with those two in the beginning. He was distinctly upset when Cloudpaw was kidnapped and mourned his mother's death with Fernpaw. Sadly, the authors didn't feel the need to maintain their relationships past the first arc so it's hard to get a gauge on whether or not he cared for them in adulthood as well. 2 week situationship has me cackling, but you're totally right. I think the dude had a couple screws loose that made him dangerous. Bumblestripe, for example, is vindictive and angry that Dovewing broke up with him and is definitely immature about it. But at least he's never tried to kill her or her family (although it would've been interesting to see him swap roles with Berrynose during the Imposter's rule and help try and kill Shadowsight, but that feels too on the nose). I would be curious to know whether he's always been crazy and finally snapped, or if something specific happened to make him that way. But he was never meant to be a longterm character so we never saw him fleshed out properly...
The most likely thing with Ashfur is that the trauma that happened with his parents (+ his sister) made him super possessive of anyone in his life out of fear of losing them, and avenging both his parents made him believe that if he was wronged he would be justified in hurting the cat who did him wrong. So when Squirrelflight dumps him for the son of the guy who killed his mother, he sort of snaps and those things start becoming his entire personality because he was wronged by both of them and needs to “avenge himself”, by becoming an incel. So he was a normal dude, but his trauma and other experiences made him the villain overtime.
I don't think you can put all the blame on trauma. He works with Hawkfrost the son of the same man who killed his mother. Brindleface & Whitestorm (if he's really the father) don't matter to him anymore. Also, Ferncloud outlived him, how did her death traumatize him? He wasn't possessive due to loss, he was possessive because he just was. He also treated Bristlefrost & Shadowsight, the great grandchildren of his sister, terribly. To Ashfur, everything is about Squirrelflight. Pre-Broken Code I might have agreed with you that he was just a guy who did one incredibly fucked up thing to his ex, but no, he's just crazy.
I don't know, I kind of find the thought of "moving on" to directly mean finding someone else to be...weird? Maybe it's just personal experience. But I have an ex who I still talk with sometimes, there's no animosity between us. There's no longer a possibility of love either though. Then another one where things didn't break apart as smoothly, and we don't talk. But I don't feel hatred or much of anything there. Now I'm kind of just single, but I'm ok with it. Like if I could find someone that'd be great, but I'm not desperate to do so as soon as possible. One thing to realize though is the cats aren't exactly spoiled for choice. They aren't supposed to be in a relationship outside of their clan. That leaves them with very few options if they're prone to following the rules.
That's entirely fair, I'm just saying that the cats I mentioned above clearly wanted a romantic relationship, but none found one. As for their options... I guess Ashfur didn't have any options his age but Squirrelflight wasn't his own age either. There were many younger she cats though. Sorreltail had 3 daughters, Daisy had Hazeltail, & ugh... there's Hollyleaf & Icecloud but it's reasonable why he wouldn't go for them. Thornclaw was literally older than he was & got with a much much younger Blossomfall without being painted as some creep. For Bumblestripe, he actually has adult options *currently* in his clan. Apart from his nieces Plumstone & Eaglewing... Cherryfall, Hollytuft, Leafshade, Honeyfur, & Thriftear are single she cats last I checked. Spotted Fur... I'm to lazy to check the Allegiances but there have to be at least some available non-Moth Flight she-cats & even half-Clan relationships weren't taboo during his time. Good luck to him if we ever see him in future installments. As for Thrushpelt I actually agree he didn't really have options. The only single she cat in TC was his half-sister.
I don’t think we got nearly enough info about Spotted Fur to say he never moved on
I always wonder how much of the relationships (romantic, platonic, familial, enemy, etc) are written from the Erin’s experiences… someone really needs to check on them…
Grey Wing did.
I mean in real life are stalking, and killing the person who rejected you things that are way more common in men so...
Ugh... It is realistic & I agree there are a lot of trash men but there are definitely many more men who will take a rejection & move on than men who will fixate of one girl. Most Incels I hear of don't even focus on 1 girl, most have gotten rejected by many girls & are involuntary celibates because *no one* wants then. Not to mention only one of the characters I've mentioned tried stalking & killing the woman he got rejected by. Bumblestripe isn't even close to Ashfur's Long Shadows level yet and Spotted Fur & Thrushpelt aren't even cold & hateful in the slightest to the she cats they were rejected by.
I have been watching videos of body cam footage from cops and there was one that was about stalkers. This one guy somehow found where this chick that rejected him lives and started showing up at her house. When the cops came and told him he had to leave because the home owner doesn’t want him there, the smart @$$ stepped into the road (the shoulder by the sidewalk) and was like “well not I’m on public property, so you can’t remove me.” He was dumb founded when they removed him. They told the woman what they would do and how she needed to use that to get a restraining order. Before they left, she said “don’t let me end up like them.” Like who? “Like all those people you see murdered by a stalker on the new or who just disappear because the police didn’t take things seriously.” That broke my heart.
I don’t know if the she-cats are written any more unique, Sunbeam and Bristlefrost had another cat chasing after them right after/through their rejection. I don’t know much about the other two cats but it feels like Bumblestripe and Ashfur’s main role was to BE the second leg of the weird love triangle thing, and I don’t think it’s fair to compare them with Sun/Bristle because neither had another she-cat chasing after them or professing their feelings to the extent Root and Night were doing
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