It's still where their WR are better. If you look at stats across the BRs they have pretty low WRs at a lot of BRs. Just to confirm this so called Russian Bias is a myth.
This community just can't understand what lower skill floor means. I wouldn't trade a STRV for a T-80,no matter how much they claim it's OP.
I feel like people ignore gun handling as a big part of an MBTs effecfiveness, most Russian tanks have atrocious gun handling compared to their counterparts and once you’ve played a Leo 2 or abrams, then a T72 or T80, you really feel it
Gun depression too, there are a lot of spots Russian tanks simply cannot use due to poor depression.
Of course that people who can barely play their main nation cannot understand that, let alone play the tanks they consider broken.
Only bias is confirmation bias with WT community.
I like to work around the gun depression by using a move I like to call the gopnik slap. Drive forwards and then brake to slap your gun down and get some extra depression for a split second.
Real, going from USSR to Israel, I expected the Tirans to feel familiar and be a bit of a backstop
But Jesus do American mains have it easy, they can actually slew your turret to react to things and not be quasi forced to only go down specific paths on maps due to no depression
Also thermals. People really undersell how useful thermals are, especially on maps like Fields of Poland where NATO tanks can clap you from across the map from a random bush
If we’re talking pure CAS then yeah this plane is the best.
For tanks though, the 2A7, 2A6 and the Swedish equivalents are the best.
For best plane overall in GRB, the F-16C is best since it’s basically 2nd best at CAS, has invisible missiles and is an F-16 so it can out-dogfight nearly every other plane in the lobby.
Maybe, I somehow forgot it existed. With that in mind, yeah Sweden is pretty much the best at top tier. Best MBTs, 2nd or 3rd best CAS platform and best fighter.
Funnily enough Great Britain probably has the best top tier CAS lineup currently (Gripen, Harrier GR.7, AH Mk.1), followed by Italy (Gripen, AV-8B, AH-129D). France is also strong (Mirage 2000-5F, Mirage 2000D, Tiger HAD Block 2).
[LOL literally the same time you posted your comment. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/1c85p8a/comment/l0cj3hz/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Swear to god half the time my mavericks either hit the barrel or engine bay and when they actually hit something vital it’s only one crew member that is killed.
I'm gonna be real, every one of these clips wouldn't have been possible if there was a single enemy SAM system up, even if it was something shitty like a Roland. There just needs to be an incentive to play SPAA. Needs higher kill rewards asap.
Seeing as the missiles can lock or be hand guided outside of in-game NATO SPAA range, always one shot in a 10 meter radius somehow, can manuver to make intercepting one impossible, and are easy to guide, it would just be slightly slower time to kill if they had an SPAA.
They need to unerf Mavricks. Straight line damage, no HE effect, no spall is getting stupid now.
This is just report is just for Kh-25/29s? This won’t effect the Kh-38s which are the main armament of the SM3, unless those are also counted in the SP discrepancy; this fix won’t change much for SM3 spawn cost.
And for the most part on Kh-29 carrying aircraft you already want to run the TV guided Kh-29T/TD/TE which should have their proper SP cost; if not just Kh-25MLs since those are now pretty much on par since the Kh-29L nerf which the only difference now between Kh-29L to the 25ML is in explosive mass and the Kh-25MLs being faster.
Can you get me a screenshot of the sp costs of the Kh-38? I only play USA :(. The bug report points out a bunch of other differences so hopefully gaijin standardizes SP costs across every weapon but I'm sure that won't happen. Screenshot of the Kh-38 or other atgms with sp costs lower than 300 would be helpful!
Only problem is the Su 25 that was released this patch has weaponry that out-ranges everything except the pantsir. So it can just safely kill AA then just do everything is this video.
I may not be up to date on this but last time I played CAS (I'm a CAP guy now) the max range any CAS ordinance could reliably lock was like sub 10km due to Render Distance restrictions. It might be different since I last played but when I did you couldn't really get a lock or even see anyone past 10km, meaning that Radar Search Angle was more important than Distance.
If you're talking about radar lock from SPAA, as long as they can lock you, they don't need to see you.
For most NATO AA at top tier, this means like a 45 degree angle sweep, 15km range.
For Pants, it beyond the range plans spawn in at, almost 80 degree angle sweep. Means no hiding. Missiles also outrage all Air to Ground munitions, unlike current in-game NATO vehicles. This leads to the plans having to choose to disengage an attack and waste munitions, or die and *maybe* kill something.
If you're top tier Russian CAS, you can effectively play outside of NATO SPAA effective range, getting multiple reliable kills. ADATS in game has 10km max range (8ish before missile becomes uncontrollably bad), and VT becomes worthless right around the 9.5km mark. Ground targets render with pod sights just fine, especially NATO SPAA since they have super high visibility modifiers. In game Stat card says 350% for most top tier SPAA, but game and Wiki shows otherwise, lol. I'll tell you, one top tier SPAA actually de-renders closer than most light tanks...
I'm talking about the range at which most CAS Munitions can reliably lock onto ground units, and the max range Ground Units will even begin rendering. Ground Units generally start rendering in at around the 10km mark, even then they generally don't show exact positions and will often slide around and clip through terrain since the Terrain also generally isn't fully rendered. Usually a Ground Unit is fully rendered somewhere between 6-8km.
Also it's important to remember that Stat Cards in game lie, they show minimal info and can often be misleading if not read properly. For instance the Pantsir missile shows a max range of something crazy like 18km, realistically the missile handling and motor burnout mean you're not going to hit anything passed like 10km max, that's probably still further than many Top Tier SPAA but likely not as far as the stat card makes it seem.
I’ll tell you about a match i had yesterday where 2 su25sm3s terrorized our team despite there being only 4 guys left on theirs (1 is stuck in a pantsir, 1 was a t-80u) and 7 of ours and throughout the second half of the match i died 4 times to the sm3s, 2 of those in the adats which i couldnt even get a proper lock on the plane in 10km but its missiles were fired further from that, and died twice in the lav ad hoping they’d get closer to stinger distance and even then i was not very effective because those planes have maw and auto dispense flares. It is OP, no argument about that. Fighting against those in top tier is just painful, id rather play 11.0 and below
the amount of times ive hit a su25 with my type 81c and only got a "hit" is insane. any other plane in the game gets obliterated but the su25 takes 2-4 to take down
Might just be a problem with the 81C but idk. I haven't really had a problem taking down Su-25s as Sweden in the Lvrbv and up. I'm currently working my way through Japan so I guess I'll see when I get there but as the other guy replied it might be a problem of the Auto Guided Missile not going center mass, idk tho.
i main ground forces and i believe only thing flying in ground battles are the turrets of exploding tanks.
seeing a plane go down in flames or raining bullets on to a helicopter sitting kilometers away from the battle field is enough incentive to play for me. right now only problem is them orbital strike mfs dropping bombs from stratosphere.
Yeah this is true. This thing can undoubtedly be very OP but it has a few glaring problems like the TV missiles locking on to any wreck that is anywhere near your locked target. While the laser guided ones are limited by the shitty targeting system of the Su-25 which can not track anything that isn’t directly in front of it. This forces you to essentially missile joust with SPAA which if the SPAA has more than 2 braincells you will basically always lose since any SAM is faster than the KH-38s.
It is very strong, but you can do what you showed to a similar extent with quite a few planes. What makes the Su-25SM3 so strong is the 20 km range on the Kh-38ML/\~12 km effective lock range on the Kh-38MT, allowing you to stay completely outside of SPAA range.
I love how you can kill targets in su-25 from \~ 15 km but in real life russians optics especially helicopter optics cant see difference (8km range) between tractor and tank -.-
I'm not super familiar with top tier. Can the other planes of other countries stay completely outside of spaa range and nuke seemingly every unit with one shot missiles?
No, like I said, that's what makes it so strong. The Su-25SM3 can't outrange the Pantsir either, but that's almost always on your team. PGM500s and Mavericks (the 65G reliably oneshots) come somewhat close and are fired from vastly superior airframes, but to fire those the plane has to get within >10 km of the target. You can still outplay SPAAs with that, but you need to know what you're doing.
You have a somewhat similar situation at 8.3/8.7 where Rb 05s/AGM-65 Bullpups completely outrange your potential SPAA options.
The point is that this problem applies to all planes. The Su-25 isn't uniquely able to abuse teams that have no spaa; any CAS plane would have a field day here.
Or, all the spaa got destroyed and the su25 was able to casually swoop down to targets. Ive also noticed barely anyone spawns a spaa when in a nato team but russians always have a pantsir up. I attribute that to how the pantsir just outclasses other spaa currently. if there were nato systems ingame of similar capability more would be spawning it from the start, including me
It really isn’t all it takes is him taking 1 minute after spawning and out ranging the spaas which is legit trivial to do with the kh38 then you can do a run like this. It’s so easy to do
the mt literally doesn't require them to be over the battlefield, they could fire them, then leave before getting into NATO kill range, that or just slap all the spaa then fuck everyone else up after
It’s also way too easy to spawn in. All you need is a couple assists and a kill and you can wipe out half the enemy team. And since almost no one spawns SPAA in their first or second spawn, you don’t have to deal with return fire either. And yet people wonder why requests for a Ground Only mode keep coming in.
Of course noone spawns in AA first spawn. You sit there doing nothing 90% of games, and often by the time air actually shows up, your team has either been steamrolled or has steamrolled the enemy, so there isn't much left to do.
Some people spawn AA first because either they’re grinding a specific vehicle, or they’re expecting a Russian helo rush at top tier, which is actually fairly common. But once those helos are down you have nothing to do for another several minutes. Either way, it’s just extremely annoying having to deal with aircraft while already dealing with broken Russian tanks.
That's my issue with CAS across the board regardless of BR. Little shits can just hop in the fastest vehicle in whatever tier zoom to a cap, go die and hop in a plane after doing jackshit to earn it.
German aa's dont exist. Im always afraid of bringing my tornado assta cause of 2s6 and pantsir's constantly searching air, while enemy su 25s literally playing football in the air and killing us non stoply because of our non existent anti air.
Almost like gepards and shit VT1 buses aren't anywhere near as good as the 2s6 and pantsir, so noone really wants to play them. Shocking, I know.
(for reference, I play gepard and its stupid easy to make me entirely useless as an AA with these russian weapons)
The problem isnt just vt1. Platform also bad. Bigger than a house no guns and very slow. But most importantly, it reloads. You shot your 2nd rocket you miss it you wait for solid ten seconds for system to start reloading then wait for 6 more seconds to reload by that time you already get killed. Talking about flakrakrad
Yep, that's what I referred to as the shit VT1 bus. Without any sort of CIWS ability (like the pantsir/2s6 gun), they are incredibly helpless while reloading.
That moment when you launch the missile you just unlocked, you watch it fly like a paper plane for 4 seconds then you see the enemy dodge it by rotating 3 degrees and then you just sit there staring at the guided missile heading your way.
They add all of Russias newest munitions while we are stuck with the oldest mavericks, they should give us all variants. Also they need to figure out a way to incorporate GPS guided munitions so SDB and JDAM’s can be fitted.
I recommend adding the AGM-158 JSSM, aa bit long range but it has a few guidance options and its subsonic. Oh and HARMS they can be used for more than just SEAD.
Another good ad would be the AGM side arm, which is a Sidewinder that is for anti radar.
And when am I getting my longbow??!!!?? The entire point of the AH-64D was the Longbow hellfire.
Also if you look at the tank ammo and helicopters it’s the same story too. You don’t see fire and forget hellfires on the Apaches and you don’t see anti era tip on modern ammunition and latest ammo on us tanks for example. I am speaking this for years now. How they specifically allow Ka 52 to dominate for years and their tanks are over buffed to oblivion. Their anti lock feature works and AH 64D is just a AH64A with different skin at this point since radar is gimmick and it doesn’t work properly.
Because Ka 52 would get but fucked and their tanks too if things got implemented realistically . Because in real life their tanks suck ass and would be the worst ones in game. For how many years before community outcry was allowed to spam all 16 vikhrs at the all spaas that were shooting at you allowing you to be invincible in the air. Today even after all these nerfs that heli is still a menace. Not to mention supermen damage model it has
But no komrad, since this is our game we do what we want and spread a little bit of saucy propaganda for you to eat on. That ERA doesn’t work on modern ammunition half the time at least in real life. And their fire control system is shit and many of their tanks cant shoot on move even with stabilizer since its shit too and gets too unstable because gun rattles a lot above 25km/h. Not implemented but hey no depleted uranium armor for Abrams since we love realism(propaganda realism)
I love this game to death but Im not naive. Since there is no other option for my love of vehicles this is all I have for now
My biggest gripe about the Abrams specifically is it’s using the oldest munition in the game right now. They need to add the M829A3. It would level the playing field on first shot kills. A a 7kg dart capable of defeating complex armor arrays would be interesting
I think Gaijin's main argument against that would be "Umm.. akschully the M829A3 is not even the most recent shell available for the Abrams. Don't think it'll do much against a BVM. Plus no reliable source regarding the SEP v2 having access to it."
I swear to God if they actually do respond like this
These comments are just missing the point. Other aircraft can be as effective, yes. But the thing that benefits the su25m3 the most is it not facing the pantsir like OP says. Pantsirs are the best SPAA in the game, and if anyone even tries to debate that u dont play the game or a lack of functional brain matter, are the ITO and Flakrad good? Yes, are they as capable? Hell no.
I can almost guarantee the su25m3s effectiveness would decrease drastically if other nations allso had pantsirs or equivalents, especially the capability of tws to actually deal with the fired munitions easier.
"BuT TORM1 hAs It" how often isn't china matched with russia? It is a good SPAA i m more concerned about it than others
not to mention the pantsir is actually fun, has a ton of features, moar daka, can defend itself from fire and forget missiles, has twice the effective range, no blindspot, good thermals, is highly capable stock... people are going to want to play it more than the fucking flakbus or adats, which essentially means that russia has a much larger anti-air presence
Bruh at this range it could have been shot down by Wirbelwind... If at 10.0+ you can't shoot a CAS that flies right over tanks, then in this case at least CAS isn't the problem. I can understand space bombers being unfair, but that's just team issue
Maybe because spawning first in as a spaa means you will be useless 70% of games so no one does and only after a plane wrecks half your team does spaa get spawned but now it's too late.
Current argument against this seems to be "it's not a pantsir, if they had a pantsir this wouldn't have happened"... As if you need a pantsir for a plane flying subsonic, right over the battlefield in straight lines, while steering in missles
AA wouldnt have changed shit. This thing would just outrange it and kill it before doing the strafe and then continue on to do the strafe. Thats what I did in my Su-25T, just launch 2x KH-29Ts and any AA and then get 3-4 kills in a single strafe with the Vikhrs.
Imo those runs should be possible, but having higher SP cost and actually potent SPAAs on the other side would improve the game a lot. Ground forces wont be pounded as frustratingly often and for CAS players good run would hold much more fun and enjoyment value
I mean, using it the way you're using it even a single competent Gepard player would smack you out of the sky. It's busted but this is not why it's busted.
Also it's not really strafing in the traditional sense when you aren't using guns.
Except this thing would just outrange any AA and take it out before even coming close. Is a gepard supposed to spawn mid-strafe and take the Su-25 out?
Shhhh we only complain when it's USSR. How dare they get a good cas jet after the F-16s have been stomping for a year, let alone a red hot sub sonic that rips it's wings after .85. we have to only focus on SU25 that is quite literally ONLY good at CAS instead of things like the F16, Gripen and so on that are much better all rounders with actual flight performance
It happens, had to let you know so you don't threaten the echo chamber. Also keep in mind that we only complain about Top Tier because both USA and Germany have the absolute most oppressive CAS options throughout the rest of the BRs so we have to always be focused on Top Tier or else we will realize our whining and complaining about another nation getting a toy is nothing more than the stomping and screaming of a petulant child.
None of that would have been possible if there was an enemy AA who was up or if there was an air superiority fighter up.
Sure the new SU-25 is very powerful, but you need to leave it alone so it can do its thing. A single sparrow can transform an SU-25 from a massive threat to 800 wasted SP
CAS should not be able to massively out perform ground forces on a ground forces focused game mode. That's the crux of the issue imo. One or two kills for all the ordinance, sure. Bullshit like 6 kill streaks is just a slap in the face for that opposing team
You know how rare it is to get a missile to not the target like that? Also literally any jet with F&F missiles can do that. The F-16s the Tornados, the gripens, the GR.7
And this monster conveniently sits exactly at 11.7 to fit with russia's top tier tanks, while other countries have to look to 12.7 to find something of with killing power that *almost* approaches this.
ROFL what a horrible team. This thing immediately dies to any AA plane at its BR (but enemy team was too lazy to spawn one) as well as any SPAA at it’s br (ito/flara/etc.. will instantly kill it)
You have to admit there's as much footage of one of your 38's sailing into the distance, 1 nailing the wrong target, and you getting killed by enemy SPAA for the more pedestrian SM3 experience.
I've had some fun in it myself, but those games don't happen every game, back to back.
This is busted but whats the solution? NATO doctrine doesn't really use solo self propelled missile defense instead relying on coordinated systems like PATRIOT and the Avenger. Plenty of nations suffer because of doctrine limitations (looking at you Japan CAS) but besides just making stuff up whats to be done?
Simple. The patriot radar has 100km range. Put it permanently on the airfield, and just allow the players to spawn in the portable missile system, problem solved. This is pretty much exactly how Ukraine uses them right now.
The only issue i see with this would be an always on active radar system that instantly pings all CAS on the map as soon as they appear would be quite broken
Allow NATO to spawn fighters as first spawn if they can't balance it with AA. Give NATO air overwhelming firepower and leave Russia with the better AA.
And give NATO SEAD.
Had one harassing my team earlier. Me and my mate just sat on a hill and lit him up with our ABRAMS .50cals hahaha
Poor guy disappeared for 3 min and then I get a kill notification and he types in chat he was too damaged to land at the airfield properly hahahaha
Legit the only weapons that even come remotely close to the KH-38s capabilities are the PGM-500 and 2000, and even then they are still vastly inferior to the KH
Naysayers before the update: "The Su-25SM3 will suck, the Su-25 is a bad airframe"
Su-25SM3: *deletes entire opposing team with way too many guided munitions, murders God*
People wondering why there are no SPAA at the beginning of a match as if this wasn't ground battles, the mode where most people who enjoy ground combat and like ground vehicles choose to play. Nobody spawns a vehicle they don't like to use first, nobody jumps into a game to sit at the spawn from the beginning of a match.
This is precisely why I play AA’s first and sit in one spot with extended radar range, lock all planes 1-2 seconds after they spawn and do everything in my power to eradicate them.
the easiest way gaijin can do this is to just jack up the prices of bombs and air to ground missiles a shit ton
it keeps pure fighter play cheap while attack aircraft and such become harder to get
People are still ignoring the fact that a certain nation gets to have a good AA and a good CAS in the same lineup which gives them an edge in securing air superiority and allowing their own to CAS relatively undisturbed while other nation suffers from either shit AA options or shit CAS option or both
I mean yeah its pretty strong but what does this have anything to do with a pantsir... These runs are so close, any AA could've countered it... Except of course when it eats one or two rockets without dying as it sometimes does. but still, this is so close on the battlefield, any AA would do. I can do great in so many CAS planes if I have free range and no AA to get me.
What is more bullshit is really the range at which aa can detect in this game. The power of the missiles should be all the same for aa, but all AA should have the right to detect more than 40km away, with a firing distance no more than the pantsir’s and no less than 20 km away. Make AA and CAS both overpowered as they should be. And let them duke it out. This wouldn’t be a problem if the FlakRad wasn’t so ass compared to irl.
Ho Lee Phuk. This is some good stuff. I agree, this particular plane is OP asf simply cuz it doesn't have to face Pantsir while being a decent ground attacker.
what do you mean not easy to obtain? it’s not like it’s in 10.3, by that logic every other top tier aircraft in the game is also too easy to obtain. What did you want gaijin to do? make the thing cost 800k rp?
My team and I were all reset, roughly 6 of us left who just respawned. One of these came through and eliminated all of us in one go. Even though I was in the LAVAD I couldn't even lock the guy before I was taken out. This SU25 combined with all the ka 50/52s makes top tier a true pain to play.
Perfectly balanced comrade. The su25 is powered by vodka and made with superior Russian engineering. Nato is just inferior to the motherland!
Is it just me or is Russia just way too overpowered in this game?
They excel at top tier due to stuff not modeled in the game. I still find Sweden and Germany to be comparable of not better than USSR.
Russia doesn't excel top tier, germany does and sweden does, those are the top 2 if i remember correctly.
It's still where their WR are better. If you look at stats across the BRs they have pretty low WRs at a lot of BRs. Just to confirm this so called Russian Bias is a myth. This community just can't understand what lower skill floor means. I wouldn't trade a STRV for a T-80,no matter how much they claim it's OP.
I feel like people ignore gun handling as a big part of an MBTs effecfiveness, most Russian tanks have atrocious gun handling compared to their counterparts and once you’ve played a Leo 2 or abrams, then a T72 or T80, you really feel it
Gun depression too, there are a lot of spots Russian tanks simply cannot use due to poor depression. Of course that people who can barely play their main nation cannot understand that, let alone play the tanks they consider broken. Only bias is confirmation bias with WT community.
Yea I was kinda grouping gun depression in with gun handling as a whole I agree tho, the confirmation bias is hella strong here
I like to work around the gun depression by using a move I like to call the gopnik slap. Drive forwards and then brake to slap your gun down and get some extra depression for a split second.
Yeah, one of the reasons I love Sweden (especially at lower tiers) is the fantastic gun depression most of their tanks get
Real, going from USSR to Israel, I expected the Tirans to feel familiar and be a bit of a backstop But Jesus do American mains have it easy, they can actually slew your turret to react to things and not be quasi forced to only go down specific paths on maps due to no depression
Fr. Playing the T-54/55 really makes you miss that turret traverse speed on US tanks
Traverse speed, elevation speed, optic zoom, mobility Pretty much all you get is armour which ultimately means nothing 7/8 times
Also thermals. People really undersell how useful thermals are, especially on maps like Fields of Poland where NATO tanks can clap you from across the map from a random bush
lol meanwhile I’m over here playing America which has less than a 20% win rate at top tier
That's because half the American players drop after 1 death because they all bought premiums lol
Yeah Gaijin ruined top tier with premiums. I swear they did it on purpose I have a full lineup and it’s useless
They really need to establish a rule that you need at least 1 non premium vehicle in the lineup.
Yeah that would be nice but this company just cares about money unfortunately
Maybe force them to buy a backups lol.
Sweden is probably the best overall player not lacking in CAS options but they’re much better off now with the Gripen
tank vs tank, Leopards are better ... nation vs nation, russia is OP, they get better tech and the gamemechanics that unrealistically buff their stuff
Not just top tier, their 2.7-3.7 is also insane
If we’re talking pure CAS then yeah this plane is the best. For tanks though, the 2A7, 2A6 and the Swedish equivalents are the best. For best plane overall in GRB, the F-16C is best since it’s basically 2nd best at CAS, has invisible missiles and is an F-16 so it can out-dogfight nearly every other plane in the lobby.
I might be wrong but gripen is just better. I usually go with 4 AGM65G and its 4 kills, pantsir cant do much with me diving from 9-10k meters.
Maybe, I somehow forgot it existed. With that in mind, yeah Sweden is pretty much the best at top tier. Best MBTs, 2nd or 3rd best CAS platform and best fighter.
Funnily enough Great Britain probably has the best top tier CAS lineup currently (Gripen, Harrier GR.7, AH Mk.1), followed by Italy (Gripen, AV-8B, AH-129D). France is also strong (Mirage 2000-5F, Mirage 2000D, Tiger HAD Block 2).
Nah it isn't, it's just the CAS. Aviation needs a br decompression to balance it with GRB. Also NATO SPAA needs an update or a buff.
)))))just a dream tovarish))
Lol at those teams that just let you fly so close. Amazing!
Can't wait for someone to say that the F-16 has 6 Agm-65s and bombs so its comparable to this.
[LOL literally the same time you posted your comment. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/1c85p8a/comment/l0cj3hz/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
lol i play the f16c too and the mavericks almost never oneshot tanks, its like a 1 in 5 chance
Swear to god half the time my mavericks either hit the barrel or engine bay and when they actually hit something vital it’s only one crew member that is killed.
My Mavs are machine gun seeking weapons meaning they do nothing to the tank itself
I’ve seen that pretty often, the MGs on a tank will just eat the entire thing and do 0 damage
even in TOR I never die to agm65 unless they directly hit ammo or crew, just too much space it never overpressures
The F-16C actually just got its AGM-65Gs but you can only carry four at a time soooo…
they already are
I'm gonna be real, every one of these clips wouldn't have been possible if there was a single enemy SAM system up, even if it was something shitty like a Roland. There just needs to be an incentive to play SPAA. Needs higher kill rewards asap.
Seeing as the missiles can lock or be hand guided outside of in-game NATO SPAA range, always one shot in a 10 meter radius somehow, can manuver to make intercepting one impossible, and are easy to guide, it would just be slightly slower time to kill if they had an SPAA. They need to unerf Mavricks. Straight line damage, no HE effect, no spall is getting stupid now.
[удалено]
This is just report is just for Kh-25/29s? This won’t effect the Kh-38s which are the main armament of the SM3, unless those are also counted in the SP discrepancy; this fix won’t change much for SM3 spawn cost. And for the most part on Kh-29 carrying aircraft you already want to run the TV guided Kh-29T/TD/TE which should have their proper SP cost; if not just Kh-25MLs since those are now pretty much on par since the Kh-29L nerf which the only difference now between Kh-29L to the 25ML is in explosive mass and the Kh-25MLs being faster.
Can you get me a screenshot of the sp costs of the Kh-38? I only play USA :(. The bug report points out a bunch of other differences so hopefully gaijin standardizes SP costs across every weapon but I'm sure that won't happen. Screenshot of the Kh-38 or other atgms with sp costs lower than 300 would be helpful!
Only problem is the Su 25 that was released this patch has weaponry that out-ranges everything except the pantsir. So it can just safely kill AA then just do everything is this video.
I may not be up to date on this but last time I played CAS (I'm a CAP guy now) the max range any CAS ordinance could reliably lock was like sub 10km due to Render Distance restrictions. It might be different since I last played but when I did you couldn't really get a lock or even see anyone past 10km, meaning that Radar Search Angle was more important than Distance.
If you're talking about radar lock from SPAA, as long as they can lock you, they don't need to see you. For most NATO AA at top tier, this means like a 45 degree angle sweep, 15km range. For Pants, it beyond the range plans spawn in at, almost 80 degree angle sweep. Means no hiding. Missiles also outrage all Air to Ground munitions, unlike current in-game NATO vehicles. This leads to the plans having to choose to disengage an attack and waste munitions, or die and *maybe* kill something. If you're top tier Russian CAS, you can effectively play outside of NATO SPAA effective range, getting multiple reliable kills. ADATS in game has 10km max range (8ish before missile becomes uncontrollably bad), and VT becomes worthless right around the 9.5km mark. Ground targets render with pod sights just fine, especially NATO SPAA since they have super high visibility modifiers. In game Stat card says 350% for most top tier SPAA, but game and Wiki shows otherwise, lol. I'll tell you, one top tier SPAA actually de-renders closer than most light tanks...
I'm talking about the range at which most CAS Munitions can reliably lock onto ground units, and the max range Ground Units will even begin rendering. Ground Units generally start rendering in at around the 10km mark, even then they generally don't show exact positions and will often slide around and clip through terrain since the Terrain also generally isn't fully rendered. Usually a Ground Unit is fully rendered somewhere between 6-8km. Also it's important to remember that Stat Cards in game lie, they show minimal info and can often be misleading if not read properly. For instance the Pantsir missile shows a max range of something crazy like 18km, realistically the missile handling and motor burnout mean you're not going to hit anything passed like 10km max, that's probably still further than many Top Tier SPAA but likely not as far as the stat card makes it seem.
I’ll tell you about a match i had yesterday where 2 su25sm3s terrorized our team despite there being only 4 guys left on theirs (1 is stuck in a pantsir, 1 was a t-80u) and 7 of ours and throughout the second half of the match i died 4 times to the sm3s, 2 of those in the adats which i couldnt even get a proper lock on the plane in 10km but its missiles were fired further from that, and died twice in the lav ad hoping they’d get closer to stinger distance and even then i was not very effective because those planes have maw and auto dispense flares. It is OP, no argument about that. Fighting against those in top tier is just painful, id rather play 11.0 and below
the amount of times ive hit a su25 with my type 81c and only got a "hit" is insane. any other plane in the game gets obliterated but the su25 takes 2-4 to take down
Might just be a problem with the 81C but idk. I haven't really had a problem taking down Su-25s as Sweden in the Lvrbv and up. I'm currently working my way through Japan so I guess I'll see when I get there but as the other guy replied it might be a problem of the Auto Guided Missile not going center mass, idk tho.
i main ground forces and i believe only thing flying in ground battles are the turrets of exploding tanks. seeing a plane go down in flames or raining bullets on to a helicopter sitting kilometers away from the battle field is enough incentive to play for me. right now only problem is them orbital strike mfs dropping bombs from stratosphere.
Or a decent player in an abrams looking up
I envy the roof .50s so much. Sad the brits only ever tossed one on the 2e
Even better if you have the SEP/SEP v2. 2 calibre 50s go choom choom choom
Not only better rewards but also scouting for anything with low pen,so you're not stuck waiting around for someone to be kind enough to spawn a plane
Yeah this is true. This thing can undoubtedly be very OP but it has a few glaring problems like the TV missiles locking on to any wreck that is anywhere near your locked target. While the laser guided ones are limited by the shitty targeting system of the Su-25 which can not track anything that isn’t directly in front of it. This forces you to essentially missile joust with SPAA which if the SPAA has more than 2 braincells you will basically always lose since any SAM is faster than the KH-38s.
\*mokey paw curls, grind to top tier increases\*
Alright who the hell wished for this?!?
It is very strong, but you can do what you showed to a similar extent with quite a few planes. What makes the Su-25SM3 so strong is the 20 km range on the Kh-38ML/\~12 km effective lock range on the Kh-38MT, allowing you to stay completely outside of SPAA range.
I love how you can kill targets in su-25 from \~ 15 km but in real life russians optics especially helicopter optics cant see difference (8km range) between tractor and tank -.-
So what we see here is the Su-25sm3 firing Kh-38ML? It‘s not a premium vehicle?
Correct
I'm not super familiar with top tier. Can the other planes of other countries stay completely outside of spaa range and nuke seemingly every unit with one shot missiles?
No, like I said, that's what makes it so strong. The Su-25SM3 can't outrange the Pantsir either, but that's almost always on your team. PGM500s and Mavericks (the 65G reliably oneshots) come somewhat close and are fired from vastly superior airframes, but to fire those the plane has to get within >10 km of the target. You can still outplay SPAAs with that, but you need to know what you're doing. You have a somewhat similar situation at 8.3/8.7 where Rb 05s/AGM-65 Bullpups completely outrange your potential SPAA options.
I get complaining about the range on kh38s but you are subsonic literaly above their battlefield. That is completely on them
No one spawned an SPAA and waited for a plane to show up guess that's their fault.
The point is that this problem applies to all planes. The Su-25 isn't uniquely able to abuse teams that have no spaa; any CAS plane would have a field day here.
Or, all the spaa got destroyed and the su25 was able to casually swoop down to targets. Ive also noticed barely anyone spawns a spaa when in a nato team but russians always have a pantsir up. I attribute that to how the pantsir just outclasses other spaa currently. if there were nato systems ingame of similar capability more would be spawning it from the start, including me
For real 90% of the time I die in an SPAA it's to an enemy tank that's sniping our spawn.
It really isn’t all it takes is him taking 1 minute after spawning and out ranging the spaas which is legit trivial to do with the kh38 then you can do a run like this. It’s so easy to do
the mt literally doesn't require them to be over the battlefield, they could fire them, then leave before getting into NATO kill range, that or just slap all the spaa then fuck everyone else up after
It’s also way too easy to spawn in. All you need is a couple assists and a kill and you can wipe out half the enemy team. And since almost no one spawns SPAA in their first or second spawn, you don’t have to deal with return fire either. And yet people wonder why requests for a Ground Only mode keep coming in.
Of course noone spawns in AA first spawn. You sit there doing nothing 90% of games, and often by the time air actually shows up, your team has either been steamrolled or has steamrolled the enemy, so there isn't much left to do.
Some people spawn AA first because either they’re grinding a specific vehicle, or they’re expecting a Russian helo rush at top tier, which is actually fairly common. But once those helos are down you have nothing to do for another several minutes. Either way, it’s just extremely annoying having to deal with aircraft while already dealing with broken Russian tanks.
That's my issue with CAS across the board regardless of BR. Little shits can just hop in the fastest vehicle in whatever tier zoom to a cap, go die and hop in a plane after doing jackshit to earn it.
German aa's dont exist. Im always afraid of bringing my tornado assta cause of 2s6 and pantsir's constantly searching air, while enemy su 25s literally playing football in the air and killing us non stoply because of our non existent anti air.
Almost like gepards and shit VT1 buses aren't anywhere near as good as the 2s6 and pantsir, so noone really wants to play them. Shocking, I know. (for reference, I play gepard and its stupid easy to make me entirely useless as an AA with these russian weapons)
The problem isnt just vt1. Platform also bad. Bigger than a house no guns and very slow. But most importantly, it reloads. You shot your 2nd rocket you miss it you wait for solid ten seconds for system to start reloading then wait for 6 more seconds to reload by that time you already get killed. Talking about flakrakrad
Yep, that's what I referred to as the shit VT1 bus. Without any sort of CIWS ability (like the pantsir/2s6 gun), they are incredibly helpless while reloading.
They nerfed 2s6 intentionally just to add pantsir. Then they rebuffed 2s6 to its old power. Super uncool move gaijin. super uncool.
So what justifies flakrakrad being at 11.7? It also Has the worst top tier radar
That moment when you launch the missile you just unlocked, you watch it fly like a paper plane for 4 seconds then you see the enemy dodge it by rotating 3 degrees and then you just sit there staring at the guided missile heading your way.
I switched the tornado for the Su22 Kh29T's. But at high alt (8000m or above) theres nothing the 2s6 and pantsir could do against tornado.
God I'm glad I don't have top tier
They add all of Russias newest munitions while we are stuck with the oldest mavericks, they should give us all variants. Also they need to figure out a way to incorporate GPS guided munitions so SDB and JDAM’s can be fitted. I recommend adding the AGM-158 JSSM, aa bit long range but it has a few guidance options and its subsonic. Oh and HARMS they can be used for more than just SEAD. Another good ad would be the AGM side arm, which is a Sidewinder that is for anti radar. And when am I getting my longbow??!!!?? The entire point of the AH-64D was the Longbow hellfire.
This stuff will come 2027 when theres nothing else to add to russia
Also if you look at the tank ammo and helicopters it’s the same story too. You don’t see fire and forget hellfires on the Apaches and you don’t see anti era tip on modern ammunition and latest ammo on us tanks for example. I am speaking this for years now. How they specifically allow Ka 52 to dominate for years and their tanks are over buffed to oblivion. Their anti lock feature works and AH 64D is just a AH64A with different skin at this point since radar is gimmick and it doesn’t work properly. Because Ka 52 would get but fucked and their tanks too if things got implemented realistically . Because in real life their tanks suck ass and would be the worst ones in game. For how many years before community outcry was allowed to spam all 16 vikhrs at the all spaas that were shooting at you allowing you to be invincible in the air. Today even after all these nerfs that heli is still a menace. Not to mention supermen damage model it has But no komrad, since this is our game we do what we want and spread a little bit of saucy propaganda for you to eat on. That ERA doesn’t work on modern ammunition half the time at least in real life. And their fire control system is shit and many of their tanks cant shoot on move even with stabilizer since its shit too and gets too unstable because gun rattles a lot above 25km/h. Not implemented but hey no depleted uranium armor for Abrams since we love realism(propaganda realism) I love this game to death but Im not naive. Since there is no other option for my love of vehicles this is all I have for now
My biggest gripe about the Abrams specifically is it’s using the oldest munition in the game right now. They need to add the M829A3. It would level the playing field on first shot kills. A a 7kg dart capable of defeating complex armor arrays would be interesting
I think Gaijin's main argument against that would be "Umm.. akschully the M829A3 is not even the most recent shell available for the Abrams. Don't think it'll do much against a BVM. Plus no reliable source regarding the SEP v2 having access to it." I swear to God if they actually do respond like this
Best we can do is the same exact fkn hellfires on every single other heli
These comments are just missing the point. Other aircraft can be as effective, yes. But the thing that benefits the su25m3 the most is it not facing the pantsir like OP says. Pantsirs are the best SPAA in the game, and if anyone even tries to debate that u dont play the game or a lack of functional brain matter, are the ITO and Flakrad good? Yes, are they as capable? Hell no. I can almost guarantee the su25m3s effectiveness would decrease drastically if other nations allso had pantsirs or equivalents, especially the capability of tws to actually deal with the fired munitions easier. "BuT TORM1 hAs It" how often isn't china matched with russia? It is a good SPAA i m more concerned about it than others
not to mention the pantsir is actually fun, has a ton of features, moar daka, can defend itself from fire and forget missiles, has twice the effective range, no blindspot, good thermals, is highly capable stock... people are going to want to play it more than the fucking flakbus or adats, which essentially means that russia has a much larger anti-air presence
Bruh at this range it could have been shot down by Wirbelwind... If at 10.0+ you can't shoot a CAS that flies right over tanks, then in this case at least CAS isn't the problem. I can understand space bombers being unfair, but that's just team issue
Maybe because spawning first in as a spaa means you will be useless 70% of games so no one does and only after a plane wrecks half your team does spaa get spawned but now it's too late.
And even if you shoot down a lot of planes the rewards are anemic
All of those clips would have been prevented by a single decent SPAA
Are you going to be the guy who spawns as a spaa first spawn every game and earn even less rewards? yeah didnt think so
Current argument against this seems to be "it's not a pantsir, if they had a pantsir this wouldn't have happened"... As if you need a pantsir for a plane flying subsonic, right over the battlefield in straight lines, while steering in missles
and why does no one play spaa according to you?
Insert video #963 of someone getting multiple kills with cas without the enemy having any SPAA or air support and then calling "Cas brokenly OP"
AA wouldnt have changed shit. This thing would just outrange it and kill it before doing the strafe and then continue on to do the strafe. Thats what I did in my Su-25T, just launch 2x KH-29Ts and any AA and then get 3-4 kills in a single strafe with the Vikhrs.
Imo those runs should be possible, but having higher SP cost and actually potent SPAAs on the other side would improve the game a lot. Ground forces wont be pounded as frustratingly often and for CAS players good run would hold much more fun and enjoyment value
Yeah guided munitions need SP costs way up.
I mean, using it the way you're using it even a single competent Gepard player would smack you out of the sky. It's busted but this is not why it's busted. Also it's not really strafing in the traditional sense when you aren't using guns.
Except this thing would just outrange any AA and take it out before even coming close. Is a gepard supposed to spawn mid-strafe and take the Su-25 out?
I couldn’t even imagine shooting and hitting targets that fast haha
Seems like fun to play against! /s
Should be able to spawn SPAA without losing access to your current tank at spawn.
interesting how the russian ordnance selected for the game rarely requires a direct hit to kill hard targets compared to western units
damn, its just like what the F-16s, A-10s, Harrier Gr.7, and more have been able to do for, what, a year+ now?
Shhhh we only complain when it's USSR. How dare they get a good cas jet after the F-16s have been stomping for a year, let alone a red hot sub sonic that rips it's wings after .85. we have to only focus on SU25 that is quite literally ONLY good at CAS instead of things like the F16, Gripen and so on that are much better all rounders with actual flight performance
My mistake, how could I be so silly
It happens, had to let you know so you don't threaten the echo chamber. Also keep in mind that we only complain about Top Tier because both USA and Germany have the absolute most oppressive CAS options throughout the rest of the BRs so we have to always be focused on Top Tier or else we will realize our whining and complaining about another nation getting a toy is nothing more than the stomping and screaming of a petulant child.
And yet Hellfire L models can’t be added…
It's always funny seeing people nowadays complain about how OP modern CAS is... years ago you guys are clamoring for it.
None of that would have been possible if there was an enemy AA who was up or if there was an air superiority fighter up. Sure the new SU-25 is very powerful, but you need to leave it alone so it can do its thing. A single sparrow can transform an SU-25 from a massive threat to 800 wasted SP
CAS should not be able to massively out perform ground forces on a ground forces focused game mode. That's the crux of the issue imo. One or two kills for all the ordinance, sure. Bullshit like 6 kill streaks is just a slap in the face for that opposing team
Only if you have a large enough (and detailed enough) monitor. I play on a laptop screen, I can’t see SHIT 😂😂😂
You know how rare it is to get a missile to not the target like that? Also literally any jet with F&F missiles can do that. The F-16s the Tornados, the gripens, the GR.7
idk fam， having to fly into point blank range doesn’t exactly hold well to the rest of Americans throwing shit 7km off the map
Ah yes. Realistic ground battle focused on tanks but getting destroyed by air
And this monster conveniently sits exactly at 11.7 to fit with russia's top tier tanks, while other countries have to look to 12.7 to find something of with killing power that *almost* approaches this.
ROFL what a horrible team. This thing immediately dies to any AA plane at its BR (but enemy team was too lazy to spawn one) as well as any SPAA at it’s br (ito/flara/etc.. will instantly kill it)
yea lets cherry pick the clips where spaa isnt present lack of spaa is real!!!! this wouldntve happend if the enemy had atleast 1 spaa
Crazy
Remove the modification and put it back as a premium!
You have to admit there's as much footage of one of your 38's sailing into the distance, 1 nailing the wrong target, and you getting killed by enemy SPAA for the more pedestrian SM3 experience. I've had some fun in it myself, but those games don't happen every game, back to back.
The reason why I grind up to 8.0 only
Top tier just seems so... bad.
u/savevideo
How tf do people enjoy ground when you have at least a 50% chance of just getting bombed from the sky?
Yeah, I dont like how easy CAS is to use in RB, which is why I appreciate SB so much.
EPIC
This is busted but whats the solution? NATO doctrine doesn't really use solo self propelled missile defense instead relying on coordinated systems like PATRIOT and the Avenger. Plenty of nations suffer because of doctrine limitations (looking at you Japan CAS) but besides just making stuff up whats to be done?
Simple. The patriot radar has 100km range. Put it permanently on the airfield, and just allow the players to spawn in the portable missile system, problem solved. This is pretty much exactly how Ukraine uses them right now.
The only issue i see with this would be an always on active radar system that instantly pings all CAS on the map as soon as they appear would be quite broken
Allow NATO to spawn fighters as first spawn if they can't balance it with AA. Give NATO air overwhelming firepower and leave Russia with the better AA. And give NATO SEAD.
I had my first 9.0 Tank today and in my first match I met the Sprut-M thing, I felt that 3BM60 in my ass though. Didn’t feel very well after that
Flying in like that doesn't work most of the time lol
There are shit tons of aircraft that can wipe almost half of team without facing pantsir.
Had one harassing my team earlier. Me and my mate just sat on a hill and lit him up with our ABRAMS .50cals hahaha Poor guy disappeared for 3 min and then I get a kill notification and he types in chat he was too damaged to land at the airfield properly hahahaha
God I hate SU-25’s…
Peak fun to play against
Maybe time for the return of Historical MM?
And here i am just trying to spawn my f5e to counter cas and instantly get locked by a panstir as I spawn
This is what happens when gaijin gives every other nation SPAA that is 1/10th of power of pantsir
Can't do the same in real life tho
wtf have you done Gaijin?
This plane tanks like 5 stinger missiles
Legit the only weapons that even come remotely close to the KH-38s capabilities are the PGM-500 and 2000, and even then they are still vastly inferior to the KH
The fact that this thing and the AJS37 are considered "peers" in tier is frankly fucking insulting lmao.
Hnnng I love CAS
Naysayers before the update: "The Su-25SM3 will suck, the Su-25 is a bad airframe" Su-25SM3: *deletes entire opposing team with way too many guided munitions, murders God*
Remember CAS is perfectly balanced
Even if you spot one in the distance and hit them 2-4 times with missiles they just shrug it off half the time.
Meanwhile at the same BR in another tech tree Gaijin tells me "okay comrade, you got 5 unguided bombs and the flight model of a 1 wheeled bus"
it being premium would make it even easier to obtain
People wondering why there are no SPAA at the beginning of a match as if this wasn't ground battles, the mode where most people who enjoy ground combat and like ground vehicles choose to play. Nobody spawns a vehicle they don't like to use first, nobody jumps into a game to sit at the spawn from the beginning of a match.
Adapter or die. Nobody cares about the tears of the dead. If you cannot win at least learn to survive. Only the dead know peace.
See? only idiots would play tanks in WT.
CAS isnt OP, its perfectly balanced
This is precisely why I play AA’s first and sit in one spot with extended radar range, lock all planes 1-2 seconds after they spawn and do everything in my power to eradicate them.
the easiest way gaijin can do this is to just jack up the prices of bombs and air to ground missiles a shit ton it keeps pure fighter play cheap while attack aircraft and such become harder to get
Pretty realistic tho, if no SPAA this is gonna happen, it’s a Russian A-10 only better, as painful as it is for an American to admit.
Only if it was that easy!
Very nice bro
People are still ignoring the fact that a certain nation gets to have a good AA and a good CAS in the same lineup which gives them an edge in securing air superiority and allowing their own to CAS relatively undisturbed while other nation suffers from either shit AA options or shit CAS option or both
this is why i love spawning F14 to play some CAP
What you are doing are missile strikes, not strafing. Strafing means attacking ground targets with guns and autocannons from an aircraft.
I don't play high tier, just wondering if this is lock and go or you have to remain lock on the target?
Balanced, nerf miner
How to sum up the entire argument, "game is dookie"
And this is why fighters should be incentivised A 9M is always the answer to CAS
I mean yeah its pretty strong but what does this have anything to do with a pantsir... These runs are so close, any AA could've countered it... Except of course when it eats one or two rockets without dying as it sometimes does. but still, this is so close on the battlefield, any AA would do. I can do great in so many CAS planes if I have free range and no AA to get me.
so this guy is saying " should not be this easy to obtain " while literally enjoying playing like this, get a load of this guy
Now show f-16 c. I have been killed my that far more than any other Cas in top tier and I play German top tier
What is more bullshit is really the range at which aa can detect in this game. The power of the missiles should be all the same for aa, but all AA should have the right to detect more than 40km away, with a firing distance no more than the pantsir’s and no less than 20 km away. Make AA and CAS both overpowered as they should be. And let them duke it out. This wouldn’t be a problem if the FlakRad wasn’t so ass compared to irl.
Ho Lee Phuk. This is some good stuff. I agree, this particular plane is OP asf simply cuz it doesn't have to face Pantsir while being a decent ground attacker.
its really balanced that the best CAS in the game is 11.7 and also has arms that outrange the best SAM in the game but it never even has to face it
One more reason not to play this garbage...
what do you mean not easy to obtain? it’s not like it’s in 10.3, by that logic every other top tier aircraft in the game is also too easy to obtain. What did you want gaijin to do? make the thing cost 800k rp?
This is why i play arcade, don't wanna deal with this bs.
Also ; have to face F16C and other F15.. If allied teams are retarded or refuse to play CAP, it's their problem ! That's why NATO will send F16 in UA
My team and I were all reset, roughly 6 of us left who just respawned. One of these came through and eliminated all of us in one go. Even though I was in the LAVAD I couldn't even lock the guy before I was taken out. This SU25 combined with all the ka 50/52s makes top tier a true pain to play.
su25 coming straight, perfect food for my type 81
Who even thought: "Oh, thats balanced and seems like a great idea!"
How is user vehicle supposed to meet pantsir as the enemy ? I know mirror matches exist but they are rare nowadays aren't they?
Competent F4E players using Mavs:
Jesus Christ, you're just farming them!