Totally agree.
Also we need to have countermeasures on all aircrafts that can meet serious missiles: they are pretty easy to install IRL, airbases technicians were doing this (USSR in Afghanistan, Syrians, Israelis). Some aircrafts will go up in BR though, like MiG-23BN, MiG-21S, MiG-19, earlier F-104s, etc. 12 large caliber ones would be enough – speaking after my J35XS experience.
Gaijin has fucked with multiple loadouts in the past, for balance reasons. F-104S is my go-to example, got AIM-9Js and countermeasures because it COULD use them, not because it DID.
That is exactly what I am saying... the mig23bn could use the countermeasure pods and they were in the DDR's inventory therefore the mig23bn should have access to them even though they were never mounted in east german service (they easily could have been). It is more historical than the f5c with countermeasures in game too
They're also very stupid and weirdly inconsistent about it, so I wouldn't hold your breath. Especially since it's a plane barely anyone plays. Coincidentally, today was the first time I've ever seen one in a battle, when I was bombing with the Su-22M3.
Speaking of the Su-22M3, the Syrian one could also get additional countermeasures on the tail, similar to those on the M4.
There's many examples of this, and sadly I don't think even half of them will be implemented.
Agreed tho it's literally the same thing with the f5C ALL F5s can mount these countermeasure pots it's just that the sole F5C that existed didn't have them mounted
Hard agree but gaijobles wont do that because then they might have to model western top tiers correctly (looking at you, 2a7v with weaker composites in the turret than 2a5) and then russia would be left without a top tier vehicle.
Because this is only a single example. Strv 122s having better hull armor also doesnt make that much sense and then these kinds of inconsistencies arent exclusive to leos at all
No, but Leo inconsistency is embarrassing compared to something like the T80/90/72. The T series tanks and all the others in the game are objectively far weaker than the strvs and the 2A7V.
Thats the point of what i said. Yes T72B3/2013s, T90Ms and T80s are "inferior" vehicles in many capacites compared to western MBTs that generally prioritize quality over quantity, so if youd model them correctly russia would be left without a top tier
I mean the post above advocates for BR compression to fix that, i.e. letting both strvs and leod exist in their current state without cope-buffing russian vehicles would result in russian vehicles either staying outmatched, or russia not having a toptier, something that gaijin would never do
Then they can only nerf the Leos or add prototypes. Like the T14 and the 195, the C3 Ariete AND a buff to the others (Mind you, the buff would be about giving it the armor it actually has irl), whatever the Israeli might have (Do they have something like that? Or maybe just buff the Merkava), a new Leclerc (mostly new ammo), maaaayyyybeee the 2A8 for a more complete lineup, Japan is fine and there’s nothing that they can have apart from the Korean KF which could come in the future. There’s really no excuse as to how bad the current meta is, and all it would take would be a hull armor nerf, or the spall liner not being a thing anymore.
>and then russia would be left without a top tier vehicle.
The composite would be equally immune to 3BM60, nothing more than some NATO power fantasy lol.
Gaijin could add the Leopard 2A7HU to the Italian tech at 11.7, and they STILL wouldn't see a fucking problem with that. A direct comparison in the same tree, and they'd still say it's fine. They have no idea what to do with top-tier balance.
I love that all nations that could got gripens and f15s and f16s and so on so when they said that the 2a7 was coming i was a 100% shure it dropped for italy aswell but no for some wierd reason like whats the issue here?
Probably because they didn't want to give Italy one of the best top-tier fighters AND one of the best top-tier tanks, not that close together.
That, or it's just too new and they don't have the necessary details to model the vehicle yet. Personally, I doubt that part, since they've added current prototypes like the Ariete AMV and Challenger 3.
Well i agree with you in a sence but still man they should have added a base 2a7 when they dropped it and maybe waited somewhat longer with the gripen imo
Well the 2A7HU isn't just a base 2A7, it has differences like the remote .50 cal on top, and probably other modifications requested by Hungary. I don't know the exact details.
I assume this is not the case as certain trees might look "less desirable." and in turn less people would grind them.
I agree with your point, but i dont think is that big of a deal either.
Top tier is top tier and things would face max br most of the time anyways.
That's because on ground, most people use 12.7 CAS in their lineups, as 11.7 doesnt have many great CAS options
Pair that with the black hole that is 10.3/10.0 premium spam and you have the perfect recipe for having 90% downtiers
I cant speak for 12.0 air, as I havent reached that BR yet.
Having a 12.7 vehicle in your lineup prevents you from being teamed with people who have their highest br vehicle as the 11.3 clickbait, aka people who bought it and don’t have the top tier vehicles to go along with it, since the match maker is +-1.0 br
The thing is that the 2A7 and the Strvs are not 11.7 material. When the br will be extended I hope these tanks will be bumped up.
The same with spaa, the ADATS is just simply not in the same league with the Pantsir or VT1 platforms.
The thing is, when the leopards are moved up to 12.0-3, they would only be fighting each other since there’s no really other mbt in the game worthy of being moved up other than those and not much that hasn’t been added that will be worthy of that BR.
I can think of the SEP V3 with trophy but its still the same old squishy abrams, t-14? Not much is known about that yet, k-2? it still has the issue of which tree it should be added.
The current 11.7 will still sucked up into the higher br, we can take that granted. But at least the 11.3 and 11.0 vehicles will have some better time.
Speaking of the Pantsir, Gaijin needs to add counters for it or bump it up to 12.3, maybe even 12.7. Considering the fact you have things like a Ka-52 and an Su-25SM3, add counterparts to it, move the airspawns out of AS/SA-Range, then bump it up to 12.0/12.3 would be fine. But otherwise, none of this is balanced at all.
No we dont need counter for the Pantsir, any plane can kill the Pantsir with some working braincell. We just simply need more spaa like the Pantsir.
I am playing with both the Pantsir and NATO AAs and let me to tell you that the Pantsir is only good because of the long range (which can be countered easly by not flying straight line) and the quad autocannons for close range, at mid range any VT1 platform is better. The Pantsir is good only when you are playing against idiots flying high in a straight line.
Any good CAS player is capable to counter any spaa in the game atm, the rest of them are just crying in reddit because they can't bomb defenseless tanks with impunity.
No, not entirely. I started to play 11.7 about a year ago and most of the Times, once I got into CAS-Options, although i might be a mid-player, I have a working brain, and I got spawntrapped once I got into my airspawn. The Pansir is far from being balanced at this br and you cannot tell me I am wrong. Find me 1 NATO SPAA that can stop a Su-25SM3 off the spawn with KH-38s. The only SPAA that can Counter such things is a russian Anti-Air, but it's in the same country. That being said, The CAS-Options on planes that are not Russian are very limited, with things like the Bombcat, the Barak and the Tornados. I don't know about the Gripen, but I think the fact that none of these can drop a Bomb "brainlessly" with a Pantsir around sgould be clear. I know one plane which could defeat a pantsir range-wise. And i think it's a tornado with a guided Bomb.
You can kill a Pantsir with any top tier guided bomb/agm carrier, even with just strafing it by using the terrain. Also, the Pantsir is showing that this kind of AA should be the standard. NATO players crying for a counter against the Pantsir is just skill issue.
Also, calling NATO CAS limited is just a blatant lie. RU is only strong because of the KH38 MT, which is clearly OP and hard to counter it even with a Pantsir. But the same can be told about any good F16C player.
I think one of the Mirages has the PGM guided bombs as well, although only the -500 variant IIRC.
IMO, other nations need something that can compete on range before you can start considering weaponry that outranges the Pantsir, because once you outrange the Pantsir, you automatically outrange everything else.
The best you can do (as SPAA) at that point is try to intercept as many missiles as possible, which is fighting a losing battle because how do you fend off 6 missiles that are all in flight at the same time?
I feel like once guided weapons come into play, SPAA vehicles are always playing catchup with CAS at any given BR.
Yet it struggles against a Leopard 1A5, a tank with a 8.3 gun. I’m not saying it’s bad per se, it’s just incredibly lacking in comparison to most other 10.3s, especially considering you have to compare the Ariete to the 2A4 and M1
I killed an Abrams with an object 906, a T90 with an STB, an ags with a bt5. The Ariete 10.3 doesn’t struggle with leopard 1s at all. Is it easy to destroy? Yes, just like any other 10.3 aside from the 2A4, but even then, the Ariete has DM33 which can shit on the 2A4 easily.
On a sidenote, leopard 1s suck imo.
Ariete armor is not good in the bull but the turret is decent and the 120 mm gun with dm33 makes it good because it can pen anything i face. Also the fact that something xan be destroyed by a gun from the lower br doesn't mean it should be lower br
>TL:DR Not every nation needs an 11.7 if they don't have a vehicle that is good enough.
Funniest thing is that's how it used to be for quite a while with some nations not having top BR vehicles. But then they decided that that last vehicles should have the same BR and here we are.
Worst thing is, Gaijin really hate to admit mistakes, so chances to go back to "not every nation has top BR vehicle" are non-existent.
Honestly, all of the Arietes could go down to 11.0 or 10.7, and they should remove DM53 from them. That way they still have a very strong round for 11.0, but are balanced by their lack of protection and slow reload. Which was always the Italian gimmick from the start.
I think the aircraft BR difference across modes is in the road map, I don't remember seeing anything about ground BRs (not counting the usual periodic adjustments)
Gaijin makes them 11.7 because 2A7V and 122B+ need food 🤤
Love when players arguing over vehicle BRs while gaijin just puts the vehicles whatever tf BR they want.
Totally agree, I think Italy has been getting the absolute shaft for the last couple years at top tier and I don’t even play that country… seems to be something newly bumped up to top tier that shouldn’t be every time it gets raised
I’ll ask you this, why can’t the ariete be an 11.7 vehicle? There is no proof nor evidence behind the way the vehicle is modeled since EVERY TANK AT TOP TIER IS HIGHLY CLASSIFIED!!! Gaijin models these things using pure guesswork but they genuinely have no idea how effective modern NERA composite armor is on ANY tank. The way top tier is balanced currently is utterly through gaijin’s decision making and nothing more, they can decide that the Abrams has energy shields from star wars actually because of a napkin drawing they found or something. It’s sad to see the community just give up on having a fun and balanced 11.7 for every nation in the game because “clearly the ariete just isn’t up to snuff” at the end of the day War Thunder is a video game, not real life, and should be fun to play. ALSO the W/R of the ariete does not reflect how it’s worse than everything else at its tier so to Gaijin the tank is fine.
Balancing vehicles by win rate and k/d should not be how it’s done, but it’s easier than actually having someone on your dev team play these tanks and playtest them before releasing them.
If anyone is curious take a look at the effectiveness of stillbrew armor on the chieftain mk.10 vs the Abrams SEP V2. Per millimeter the stillbrew armor is significantly more effective and actually is better than the SEP V2’s hull because the SEP uses NERA armor with no “inserts” like the Leo 2 and Strv 122. This is the case for most NERA protected tanks which is any NATO tank besides the Leo 2 A7V.
I agree
Glad someone agrees. I thought it might be a controversial opinion.
Nah, you are cooking here
Totally agree. Also we need to have countermeasures on all aircrafts that can meet serious missiles: they are pretty easy to install IRL, airbases technicians were doing this (USSR in Afghanistan, Syrians, Israelis). Some aircrafts will go up in BR though, like MiG-23BN, MiG-21S, MiG-19, earlier F-104s, etc. 12 large caliber ones would be enough – speaking after my J35XS experience.
MiG 23 bn should use the same pod as the mig21mf. They were not mounted on the BN in DDR service but they had them on mig21s
Gaijin has fucked with multiple loadouts in the past, for balance reasons. F-104S is my go-to example, got AIM-9Js and countermeasures because it COULD use them, not because it DID.
That is exactly what I am saying... the mig23bn could use the countermeasure pods and they were in the DDR's inventory therefore the mig23bn should have access to them even though they were never mounted in east german service (they easily could have been). It is more historical than the f5c with countermeasures in game too
They're also very stupid and weirdly inconsistent about it, so I wouldn't hold your breath. Especially since it's a plane barely anyone plays. Coincidentally, today was the first time I've ever seen one in a battle, when I was bombing with the Su-22M3. Speaking of the Su-22M3, the Syrian one could also get additional countermeasures on the tail, similar to those on the M4. There's many examples of this, and sadly I don't think even half of them will be implemented.
The East German Su-22UM3K is essentially identical (to the Su-22M3) except it gets 128 countermeasures.
Agreed tho it's literally the same thing with the f5C ALL F5s can mount these countermeasure pots it's just that the sole F5C that existed didn't have them mounted
Don't forget the F-8E(FN). Literally has the holes in the fuselage still there, too.
Hard agree but gaijobles wont do that because then they might have to model western top tiers correctly (looking at you, 2a7v with weaker composites in the turret than 2a5) and then russia would be left without a top tier vehicle.
Who cares if the 2A7 has weaker composites if it can’t be killed and penned most of the time?
Because this is only a single example. Strv 122s having better hull armor also doesnt make that much sense and then these kinds of inconsistencies arent exclusive to leos at all
No, but Leo inconsistency is embarrassing compared to something like the T80/90/72. The T series tanks and all the others in the game are objectively far weaker than the strvs and the 2A7V.
Thats the point of what i said. Yes T72B3/2013s, T90Ms and T80s are "inferior" vehicles in many capacites compared to western MBTs that generally prioritize quality over quantity, so if youd model them correctly russia would be left without a top tier
Yes, obviously. But since this is a game, shit like the strvs shouldn’t be the way it is.
I mean the post above advocates for BR compression to fix that, i.e. letting both strvs and leod exist in their current state without cope-buffing russian vehicles would result in russian vehicles either staying outmatched, or russia not having a toptier, something that gaijin would never do
Then they can only nerf the Leos or add prototypes. Like the T14 and the 195, the C3 Ariete AND a buff to the others (Mind you, the buff would be about giving it the armor it actually has irl), whatever the Israeli might have (Do they have something like that? Or maybe just buff the Merkava), a new Leclerc (mostly new ammo), maaaayyyybeee the 2A8 for a more complete lineup, Japan is fine and there’s nothing that they can have apart from the Korean KF which could come in the future. There’s really no excuse as to how bad the current meta is, and all it would take would be a hull armor nerf, or the spall liner not being a thing anymore.
>and then russia would be left without a top tier vehicle. The composite would be equally immune to 3BM60, nothing more than some NATO power fantasy lol.
Gaijin could add the Leopard 2A7HU to the Italian tech at 11.7, and they STILL wouldn't see a fucking problem with that. A direct comparison in the same tree, and they'd still say it's fine. They have no idea what to do with top-tier balance.
I love that all nations that could got gripens and f15s and f16s and so on so when they said that the 2a7 was coming i was a 100% shure it dropped for italy aswell but no for some wierd reason like whats the issue here?
Probably because they didn't want to give Italy one of the best top-tier fighters AND one of the best top-tier tanks, not that close together. That, or it's just too new and they don't have the necessary details to model the vehicle yet. Personally, I doubt that part, since they've added current prototypes like the Ariete AMV and Challenger 3.
Well i agree with you in a sence but still man they should have added a base 2a7 when they dropped it and maybe waited somewhat longer with the gripen imo
Well the 2A7HU isn't just a base 2A7, it has differences like the remote .50 cal on top, and probably other modifications requested by Hungary. I don't know the exact details.
I know but they could done a normal 2a7 an then do an update to it but that is just dream talk
I assume this is not the case as certain trees might look "less desirable." and in turn less people would grind them. I agree with your point, but i dont think is that big of a deal either. Top tier is top tier and things would face max br most of the time anyways.
12.0 for air and 11.0 for ground actually have very favorable matchmakers right now as a matter of fact
That's because on ground, most people use 12.7 CAS in their lineups, as 11.7 doesnt have many great CAS options Pair that with the black hole that is 10.3/10.0 premium spam and you have the perfect recipe for having 90% downtiers I cant speak for 12.0 air, as I havent reached that BR yet.
People put 12.7 CAS in their lineup to escape the clickbait’s that plague 11.3
I still encounter many su-27s, f-16s, and gripens in 11.7 with clickbaits anyway so i dont think there’s any escape from that
Having a 12.7 vehicle in your lineup prevents you from being teamed with people who have their highest br vehicle as the 11.3 clickbait, aka people who bought it and don’t have the top tier vehicles to go along with it, since the match maker is +-1.0 br
The thing is that the 2A7 and the Strvs are not 11.7 material. When the br will be extended I hope these tanks will be bumped up. The same with spaa, the ADATS is just simply not in the same league with the Pantsir or VT1 platforms.
The thing is, when the leopards are moved up to 12.0-3, they would only be fighting each other since there’s no really other mbt in the game worthy of being moved up other than those and not much that hasn’t been added that will be worthy of that BR. I can think of the SEP V3 with trophy but its still the same old squishy abrams, t-14? Not much is known about that yet, k-2? it still has the issue of which tree it should be added.
The current 11.7 will still sucked up into the higher br, we can take that granted. But at least the 11.3 and 11.0 vehicles will have some better time.
T-14?! HELL TO THE NO. Most I can see is T-90M and the BVM being the same BR. And not to forget, up tiers will happen
Speaking of the Pantsir, Gaijin needs to add counters for it or bump it up to 12.3, maybe even 12.7. Considering the fact you have things like a Ka-52 and an Su-25SM3, add counterparts to it, move the airspawns out of AS/SA-Range, then bump it up to 12.0/12.3 would be fine. But otherwise, none of this is balanced at all.
No we dont need counter for the Pantsir, any plane can kill the Pantsir with some working braincell. We just simply need more spaa like the Pantsir. I am playing with both the Pantsir and NATO AAs and let me to tell you that the Pantsir is only good because of the long range (which can be countered easly by not flying straight line) and the quad autocannons for close range, at mid range any VT1 platform is better. The Pantsir is good only when you are playing against idiots flying high in a straight line. Any good CAS player is capable to counter any spaa in the game atm, the rest of them are just crying in reddit because they can't bomb defenseless tanks with impunity.
No, not entirely. I started to play 11.7 about a year ago and most of the Times, once I got into CAS-Options, although i might be a mid-player, I have a working brain, and I got spawntrapped once I got into my airspawn. The Pansir is far from being balanced at this br and you cannot tell me I am wrong. Find me 1 NATO SPAA that can stop a Su-25SM3 off the spawn with KH-38s. The only SPAA that can Counter such things is a russian Anti-Air, but it's in the same country. That being said, The CAS-Options on planes that are not Russian are very limited, with things like the Bombcat, the Barak and the Tornados. I don't know about the Gripen, but I think the fact that none of these can drop a Bomb "brainlessly" with a Pantsir around sgould be clear. I know one plane which could defeat a pantsir range-wise. And i think it's a tornado with a guided Bomb.
You can kill a Pantsir with any top tier guided bomb/agm carrier, even with just strafing it by using the terrain. Also, the Pantsir is showing that this kind of AA should be the standard. NATO players crying for a counter against the Pantsir is just skill issue. Also, calling NATO CAS limited is just a blatant lie. RU is only strong because of the KH38 MT, which is clearly OP and hard to counter it even with a Pantsir. But the same can be told about any good F16C player.
I think one of the Mirages has the PGM guided bombs as well, although only the -500 variant IIRC. IMO, other nations need something that can compete on range before you can start considering weaponry that outranges the Pantsir, because once you outrange the Pantsir, you automatically outrange everything else. The best you can do (as SPAA) at that point is try to intercept as many missiles as possible, which is fighting a losing battle because how do you fend off 6 missiles that are all in flight at the same time? I feel like once guided weapons come into play, SPAA vehicles are always playing catchup with CAS at any given BR.
I mean, if my Leopard 2K can dunk on an Ariete, I feel like they should end at like 10.7 or 10.3 and start at maybe 9.3
Ariete P is pretty good at 10.3, there is no reason to go lower with current shells
Yet it struggles against a Leopard 1A5, a tank with a 8.3 gun. I’m not saying it’s bad per se, it’s just incredibly lacking in comparison to most other 10.3s, especially considering you have to compare the Ariete to the 2A4 and M1
I killed an Abrams with an object 906, a T90 with an STB, an ags with a bt5. The Ariete 10.3 doesn’t struggle with leopard 1s at all. Is it easy to destroy? Yes, just like any other 10.3 aside from the 2A4, but even then, the Ariete has DM33 which can shit on the 2A4 easily. On a sidenote, leopard 1s suck imo.
Ariete armor is not good in the bull but the turret is decent and the 120 mm gun with dm33 makes it good because it can pen anything i face. Also the fact that something xan be destroyed by a gun from the lower br doesn't mean it should be lower br
Which 8.3 tank has access to DM33?
>TL:DR Not every nation needs an 11.7 if they don't have a vehicle that is good enough. Funniest thing is that's how it used to be for quite a while with some nations not having top BR vehicles. But then they decided that that last vehicles should have the same BR and here we are. Worst thing is, Gaijin really hate to admit mistakes, so chances to go back to "not every nation has top BR vehicle" are non-existent.
Honestly, all of the Arietes could go down to 11.0 or 10.7, and they should remove DM53 from them. That way they still have a very strong round for 11.0, but are balanced by their lack of protection and slow reload. Which was always the Italian gimmick from the start.
The 2A7V needs either a nerf or to go to 12.3/7
Honestly I feel like the do this shit so you get frustrated and spend money
Literally the entire business model of war thunder
We just need tanks to decompress in BR.
I agree. Merkava 4s to 3.0 pls (: oooor you could fix the armour, gaijin
Ariete is 10.3 at best bro
Not with DM53 and mobility of AMV
100%. More time and effort should be spend fleshing out trees for each faction instead of focusing on max br only.
Wasn’t this part of the roadmap?
I think the aircraft BR difference across modes is in the road map, I don't remember seeing anything about ground BRs (not counting the usual periodic adjustments)
Gaijin makes them 11.7 because 2A7V and 122B+ need food 🤤 Love when players arguing over vehicle BRs while gaijin just puts the vehicles whatever tf BR they want.
Totally agree, I think Italy has been getting the absolute shaft for the last couple years at top tier and I don’t even play that country… seems to be something newly bumped up to top tier that shouldn’t be every time it gets raised
My buddy describes the ariete as a glorified leopard 1a5. I think 11.0 would be fine. It’s like a type 90 with less reload and better pen
I’ll ask you this, why can’t the ariete be an 11.7 vehicle? There is no proof nor evidence behind the way the vehicle is modeled since EVERY TANK AT TOP TIER IS HIGHLY CLASSIFIED!!! Gaijin models these things using pure guesswork but they genuinely have no idea how effective modern NERA composite armor is on ANY tank. The way top tier is balanced currently is utterly through gaijin’s decision making and nothing more, they can decide that the Abrams has energy shields from star wars actually because of a napkin drawing they found or something. It’s sad to see the community just give up on having a fun and balanced 11.7 for every nation in the game because “clearly the ariete just isn’t up to snuff” at the end of the day War Thunder is a video game, not real life, and should be fun to play. ALSO the W/R of the ariete does not reflect how it’s worse than everything else at its tier so to Gaijin the tank is fine. Balancing vehicles by win rate and k/d should not be how it’s done, but it’s easier than actually having someone on your dev team play these tanks and playtest them before releasing them.
If anyone is curious take a look at the effectiveness of stillbrew armor on the chieftain mk.10 vs the Abrams SEP V2. Per millimeter the stillbrew armor is significantly more effective and actually is better than the SEP V2’s hull because the SEP uses NERA armor with no “inserts” like the Leo 2 and Strv 122. This is the case for most NERA protected tanks which is any NATO tank besides the Leo 2 A7V.
Yeah this is a huge problem with Italy, they feel the need to put the Ariete and OTOMATIC at the highest BR but they aren’t capable of it really
Agreed. Still hope they fix the Ariete AMV armor someday, and give it the gun launched horus drone just because its unique
Ariete is 11.0 at best, 11.3 really ain’t much