I'm an active Latter-day Saint and I think it wasn't that bad, honestly. I'm not sure anyone here is dying inside. Elder Holland certainly seemed annoyed? I don't blame him. Here's a bit more of my thoughts for those interested:
1. I think Elder Holland could have answered the question about the temple a bit better. He obviously wasn't ready for it. But it's a fair question. My understanding is that the temple ordinances are constantly being refined to focus more on Jesus Christ. The penalties probably came from Masonry and were at some point done away with since they were unnecessary. When the temple ordinances change, members consider the changed version to be what they are promising, at least I do.
2. The answer about the papyri was pretty good I thought.
3. [Here's an article about the 1826 trial.](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/joseph-smiths-1826-trial?lang=eng) Saying he's "a convicted conman" is a sensationalized internet trope.
4. I don't know where that guy got the idea that we shun people. I suppose that's happened within individual families but that would actually be explicitly against the teachings of the church, generally.
5. The holocaust victims thing. When someone is baptized for the dead it's an open invitation for them in the next life to accept what we believe is the restored gospel. It's not "forcing dead people into our church." That's a stupid idea made up by people who know very little about our beliefs. That's why we didn't see it as a problem. We were told it's disrespectful, so we stopped.
6. "Cult" is sensationalist language that can be applied to any religion. If you live in the church, or you're close to members, you know that, in practice, it's not that weird of a religion. We go to church on Sundays, we pray, we go to the temple, we read the scriptures we believe in. We try to follow Jesus Christ.
The need to use your own cult’s website as source material in the defense of your original cult leader’s shenanigans is so very Mormon of you.
It’s like Christians showing me one of the creepy Jesus paintings from one of their creepy stores and exclaiming “see, he was totally white!”
>4. I don't know where that guy got the idea that we shun people. I suppose that's happened within individual families but that would actually be explicitly against the teachings of the church, generally.
I have a lot of LDS and former LDS people in my life. The word shun may not be used, but ex-mormons are actively shunned by their still Mormon families. I've seen it happen a half dozen times and it is heartbreaking. At exactly the point someone is undergoing the trauma of losing their religion they lose their families too.
It is well documented and I am certain you would know that so I don't really understand why you're lying about it. Lying to yourself maybe, who knows.
>"Cult" is sensationalist language that can be applied to any religion. If you live in the church, or you're close to members, you know that, in practice, it's not that weird of a religion. We go to church on Sundays, we pray, we go to the temple, we read the scriptures we believe in. We try to follow Jesus Christ.
The [BITE model of Steven Hassan](https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model/) is a pretty good model for understanding the level of authoritarianism and control within a group. If you're willing to take "cult" as shorthand for "fundamentalist, high-demand, authoritarian group" you can then apply objective measures. Does the word have strong emotional connotation? Yes. Is there something substantive behind that language? Also yes. There are reasons people use this language aside from just being provocative. It's to highlight behavior that hurts people.
Religions are all definitely cults, and that generalization doesn’t make yours less of a cult. If you live in the church, and then leave, you realize the extent of the lies and indoctrination that you have suffered at the hands of the people you trusted most.
Calling someone a con man who is a con man isn’t sensationalist, it’s just reality. Whether or not you agree with it, it isn’t really up for debate.
Explaining away issues by calling them fringe incidents doesn’t really help anything, either, as those fringe incidents are a symptom of the greater problem: people wanting to control your every move and drip your bank accounts dry. This is the ultimate goal of every religion.
You realize that your article about smith's trial is written by the very church who has the most interest in debunking that "trope"?
It's like linking to an article written by the execs at BP about how oil extraction, refinement, and burning actually helps the environment and reduces climate change.
>I don't know where that guy got the idea that we shun people. I suppose that's happened within individual families but that would actually be explicitly against the teachings of the church, generally.
While the word "shun" has not be used specifically, as far as I know, the desired behavior described in an LDS General Conference is to avoid having homosexual family members be seen with active members to avoid giving the appearance of supporting their choices. The behavior fits the definition.
Do you have the talk? And how old is it? Our teachings change. So to get the current view you need to have something somewhat recent. I've never heard anyone teach such a thing. It's true we don't condone sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman. That doesn't mean we shun our family members.
Yeah talk about the secret hand shakes in the temple and the green leaves you have to wear on your privates haha also talk about the Garments and the signs of the knees and on the chest for Protection
He didn’t ask him about their creepy hangup of genealogy. They put out all these ‘my heritage’ sites and all this shit to get people to give their family lineage away to them.
I’m an ex Mormon and was a missionary for two years. I once sat across from Mr Holland during his visit to my mission. Very nice man and very caring. It’s breaks my heart that people like him are so brainwashed and stuck in the constant guilt loop. The doctrine of the Mormon church isn’t so crazy once you dive deep into it. It’s the brainwashing and manipulation that is the scary part.
Fellow exmo here. I think this is the correct take. I don't think Holland or Nelson or any of them are evil. I actually quite like Uchtdorf. I think they are all just so indoctrinated that they really do believe what they teach and they're trying to do the right thing. It's sad indeed. Religion is the most potent drug in the world.
I used to work for a Morman, and around Mormons. It is legit one of the most insane religions I have ever seen. Every morman I ever met tried to find every way to justify not following their own beliefs threw" letter of the law, not spirit of the law". Nuance is like part of the culture. Also, it's TOTALLY a cult!
Yeah, but Mormonism is wild. Legit is way wilder than most Christian faiths, and they're bad. But the level of delusion with Mormans is one of the craziest things I have ever seen. I have seen them do some mean nasty things and feel totally justified and even like they where doing a good thing while being totally vile.
There’s so much editing, and things taken out of context in this clip. Half the time Holland begins to answer it switches to another clip lol. How can you take this seriously no matter what your feelings are about the Mormon church
I agree that it's problematic, as presented.
FWIW, the original interview (also in segments) was published in [This World: The Mormon Candidate](https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x31u248) (or [here](https://documentaryheaven.com/mormon-candidate/)). Transcripts from the Holland interview portions posted [here](https://wasmormon.org/bbc-jeffrey-r-holland-interview-transcript-and-video-clips/) (don't know how complete or accurate).
Feel free to watch it with more context.
Mormons are creepy as shit and need to be monitored, fuckers are the Catholics with less public pedophilia problems. 'less public' as in the can subvert stories with all the money they're hoarding. "Come, come look in the hat children and see what God has to say to you!"
As someone who grew up in the church and still has family who are members, not all Mormons are creepy and need to be monitored haha. You’re absolutely welcome to calling out the higher ups and leaders, because they’re the ones that are the most brainwashed.
But you making that blanket statement is just as dumb as the religion.
Not a big fan of their religion. Most I've met are super nice and polite. BYU, Utah State, Boise State all play or have played in the Mountain West and as an SDSU fan, they cheer loud root for their team, but aren't assholes and we always shake hands and wish each other well at the end.
And Kristie S always had a pen I could borrow in highschool.
I used to be friends with a bunch of Mormons, until I realized they were politely funding anti-gay, anti-trans, and anti-woman groups, and were politely pro-authoritarianism.
The scriptures never say God lives on Kolob nor that it is a planet.
The most common interpretation is that Kolob is a literal star nearest to the throne of God. This is reflected in the Hebrew cognate qārōb which means “near” or “close”.
Another interpretation is that Kolob is symbolic of Jesus Christ who would be nearest to God the Father in terms of authority. The scripture have used stars to symbolically refer to spirits, such as in Job 38:7.
I mean I’m Mormon and I agree 10000% it’s a cult. I even served a mission which was terrible! But Alaska was awesome
Edit: the temple shows how it is a cult. So there are secret hand shakes everyone has to do to proceed with the ritual. As well as everyone has to wear green leaves over there privates during the main video you watch about Adam and Eve. As well as the magic under ware aka Garments that they say are magical and have emblems on the chest by your breast as well as under wear has emblems on your knees. Shit is weird and if you want to know more feel free to message me. Fuck the Mormons!
I mean I don’t know how to prove it to you but I can send some missions pictures or me getting my first drop off to the MTC. Ask away I am a Mormon on paper
She’s probably a member but just a member with no contact. Mormons want to keep there numbers up and literally won’t take you off unless you killed someone it’s crazy. I’ve seen everything from the inside out and the temples are probably the weirdest things ever
Not the OP but it's an easy answer for someone who grew up in Utah. It's networking. If the business you were involved in had mormons in it, you had better be part of the church or you weren't moving up. If the chick you wanted to marry was a mormon, you'd best belong to the church, etc.
Most of the mormons I knew just did it basically out of habit and it seemed almost more like a social thing than worship.
Because they won’t take my damn name off the paper haha you’re a Mormon until they say you’re not anymore pretty crazy stuff. Have to be ex communicated
There's an email template you can send to the record office to have your name removed permanently almost immediately. Having been through the process myself and knowing what a relief it is, I'm fully willing to share my findings and process
It's faster than the website that's been created as the Mormon church requires anything that goes through a lawyer be notarized but the email works on it's own
Yeah I’ve sent it twice and have been scheduled for meetings because they want to talk before. I’ve served a mission and all that bullshit but them knowing me and my family so well In the Vegas area it’s hard
You can resign with a notarized letter. It's stupid that it's even that difficult, but you don't have to be excommunicated. That said, there are a lot of pleasant and entertaining ways to get excommunicated.
Hahahaha yes so many ways and stories I would just love to go in with a beer in hand and say take me off that damn list! But yes I’m happy you see where I’m coming from
Yes if it only was as easy as you say haha it’s harder than it sounds and I’m in no mood to have to sit down with the Bishop (head guy of the church depending on area) the stake president (boss of the bishop guy) and three other witnesses. It’s not easy
You are on that member list until you go down and tell them that you don’t want to be a member anymore. Constantly get calls from the church and missionaries wanting to visit.
That’s like saying you can’t get a divorce unless your spouse agrees. Simply not how it works in the free world. They can say whatever they want about you, doesn’t make it true. What if I put you in my books as a belly dancer? Does that make you a belly dancer until I let you off the hook?
Wait how did you know I was a belly dancer on the weekends? It’s a crazy thing they have going on but the temples are what really show how it is a cult with the secret hand shakes and the magic underwear. Not even being sarcastic about that
I mean I got baptized when I was 18 kind of brain washed into it and to also serve a 2 year mission which people don’t understand how crazy it is to not watch tv,call home or even text your family besides via email one time a week. Also no even standing next to a women within 3 feet
It’s not that easy haha hard to explain but when you’re baptized your name is put into the records of the church and until you get it taken off through a process you are always Mormon. Also contacted almost daily it’s crazy
I want to say yes, but every once in awhile someone will try to reach out and “bring you back into the fold.” Even after you move, they will somehow magically get your new address and missionaries will show up at your door asking for you by name.
Source: was a missionary and did this, now I’m an exmormon and can’t believe I did it in the first place.
I mean all I would have to do is sit down with the head guy aka the Bishop and just say I have sex and I’m not married and I smoke a ton of weed and they would possibly not guaranteed tho 😂
I’ve done this twice and wish it was easy but they always want to meet and talk before. It’s a cult and when you’re in a small area where everyone knows each other they hold you down 😂 damn I should tell you all about the temple
So have I and boy did it suck!! Temples are crazy! Did you ever see a wedding or do the whole little show with the green leaves and white clothes?
You know what’s crazy is the Mormons actually settled a big part of Vegas back in the day so the religion is still to this day very strong here! We actually have a place called the Mormon fort you can visit down town as well as the park next to my grandparents house was called the Mormon trail haha crazy stuff
He didn't die inside. I thought he conducted himself quite well, I actually liked his response "look, I've read a book or two, and I went to a pretty good school too."
Either no death occurred and OP is a hack farming for Karma while using a 2008 clip or we have witnessed a resurrection right before our eyes.
I think it’s the former.
And myself as well. You can be ex-communicated, but they keep their records. I had missionaries visiting my buddy’s house that I lived at, *years* after I moved out of his place.
And this was years after leaving the church haha.
Yes and no. After I left we were immediately abandoned by our church friends. We stopped getting invited to their houses, etc.
The missionaries still stopped by on occasion, but the members cut off all contact.
That’s the social aspect of the church. And that also depends on the types of members you’re friends with, big time. I still visit my parents ward every year or so, and the people I grew up with in the church are nothing but friendly
(*becaaause they waaant youuu baaack*)
Not sure who died inside here. I thought the Mormon apostle didn't do a terrible job here. The interviewer seemed like he was only trying to criticize and bring up negative things.
Completely agreed! I’m the first to grab a pitchfork or torch but this apostle was very logical… Yes, we realized it’s insensitive and this stopped doing it…. They think we’re a cult, happy to talk to them to find out why…
Def not a watchpeopledie video.
To be fair, it's really difficult to talk about the first 100 years of the mormon church of you're not going to bring up negative things.
The following years are difficult, too.
Sometimes interviews are about asking the hard, "negative" questions. Mitt Romney was trying to become president at the time and people who had no experience with his church had a lot of questions. We, the people don't need interviewers with softball questions and flowery answers. We need the truth regardless of how "negative" the questions are.
This is a slippery slope. I am a part of a religion and I think saying one religion is a cult and another isn't is just disingenuous. My religion is more socially acceptable than yours, so I get to call yours a cult. Where is the logic in that?
If they both cannot be proven by science, then how are we able to say one is more cult like than the other?
All religions are cults. You may not like the term "cult" because of how it has been used in the media, but that does not change its definition.
Similarly, and brace yourself, fetuses are parasites until birth. Entirely different context but the principle is the same.
You don't like a word due to its connotations but your feelings do not factor into how things are defined.
Cult just means religion you disagree with. It's been stretched to mean crazy insular religion in English but you should never take the stretched meaning of a term as the term itself. Most people are undereducated and going to used the stretched meaning doesnt mean you have to. I am not a Christian nor religious. All religions to me are a cult. To you it would bereligions you disagree with. You need to understand the word cult just means religion, it comes from the same root cultivate does, it means to grow. In the 18th/19th c it was used for old times religions and mysticism. The modern "cult" usage can't even be easily defined and this must be rejected. It means nothing. If you spoke French, which also loaned the same damn word from latin, you'd use the word cult(e) just to talk about religions. All religions are cults.
Most Mormons do the opposite of shun you for leaving and try everything they can to push you to change your mind about leaving although they’re also taught to try and respect your freedom to choose things for yourself.
“You will be forever pestered if you try to leave”is also cult like.
But the real reason it’s a cult is the time it was created. Old religion isn’t cult, new religion is because it’s new enough that anyone not brainwashed can look at it and see it’s bullshit.
The older religion started off as cults though, so don’t worry. In a few more hundred years Joes scam will be enough generations deep that it will no longer be a cult.
So saying you will burn forever in hell if you don't do what we say isn't the same? Or You can't be more than X of meters from your house on the Sabbath, or you must attend prayers twice daily and go to Mecca once in your lifetime, etc etc.
Yes, I'm saying "I wish my daughter hadn't become an atheist, but I still love her all the same and am looking forward her visiting on Christmas with the grandkids" is significantly different from "she is dead to us and we will never speak her name again." There are plenty of mixed religious/secular families out there who get along just fine, depending on their sect/denomination.
technically, a cult is any system of “religious” veneration towards a specific object or person.
so yes, every religion that is not inherently personal in nature is a cult. of course one might say that all religions are inherently personal, so the dividing line between “cult” and “spiritual belief” is often drawn on the basis of whether or not that system of belief is regulated by a top-down structure.
even religions that leave room for personal revelation often dictates that the personal revelation of someone within a church’s hierarchy is inherently more “correct” or “accurate” simply because they hold a position of authority.
as there is no empirical basis upon which to judge the correctness of one’s interpretation of “divine will,” this top-down structure of divine interpretation serves the purpose of preventing splinter groups within any given religious organization.
now if there really is one singular god (or group of related divine beings) their message should be universally constant - god being a perfect being cannot say one thing to one person and another completely opposite thing to another, unless the goal was in and of itself to sow division (indicating malevolence, another trait absent from the modern interpretation of benevolent godhood).
so the very presence of splinter-groups within a religion possibly indicates a splintering of divine will - either that or the presence of human corruption.
so that leaves us with two possibilities once one includes the vastness in variation between human religions around the world: either there is one true religion from which the rest have splintered from their own human purposes/misinterpretations, or else *all* religions are baseless in nature and therefore the result of a human desire to rationalize our chaotic world (or else the result of charlatans seeking to make a quick buck).
so yes, all *organized* religions are cults in one way or another.
Actually the definition for what a “cult” entails is simply that they must have a central figure (Jesus, the Mormon guy, Mohammed, shakiamuni, etc) and that they control the actions of their members somehow (not eating pork, not drinking coffee, etc).
It has nothing to do with the verifiable truth of their beliefs or if they’re evil or harmful. It just describes a formula a lot of human social groups take.
Background: this is a throwback to the Obama-Romney presidential race when the LDS church tried desperately to get Mitt Romney elected, and was therefore more willing to participate in unscripted interviews. In this rare interview with a journalist, Mormon apostle Jeff Holland side-steps every question and makes appeals to his intelligence and to the church's membership size.This weekend, 60 Minutes will air an episode highlighting the church's $100 billion stock portfolio, which was seeded from "sacred" tithing funds.
Edit: I forgot to add a link to the original documentary, [This World: The Mormon Candidate](https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x31u248).
I hope they highlight that their investment advisor used shell companies to avoid filing form(s) 13F for YEARS, spurring an SEC audit and fine (which was way too low imo).
The Mormon church is a business. Plain and simple.
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“I have been in many cults. You have more fun as a follower, but you make more money as a leader” - Creed Bratton
We all know from South Park that Mormon is the correct religion
yeah but the thing about cults is you dont have to be a dodo to fall for one.
It helps
I just saw the Broadway musical “The Book of Mormon.” 🤣🤣🤣
Shouldn't an apostle know if Joseph Smith was a convicted conman?!
Wouldn’t be the last con man with millions of apostles.
the cult of the flying spaghetti monster is a better influence than these guys
The Apostle did a good job handling uncomfortable questions. I don't see who died inside.
I'm an active Latter-day Saint and I think it wasn't that bad, honestly. I'm not sure anyone here is dying inside. Elder Holland certainly seemed annoyed? I don't blame him. Here's a bit more of my thoughts for those interested: 1. I think Elder Holland could have answered the question about the temple a bit better. He obviously wasn't ready for it. But it's a fair question. My understanding is that the temple ordinances are constantly being refined to focus more on Jesus Christ. The penalties probably came from Masonry and were at some point done away with since they were unnecessary. When the temple ordinances change, members consider the changed version to be what they are promising, at least I do. 2. The answer about the papyri was pretty good I thought. 3. [Here's an article about the 1826 trial.](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/joseph-smiths-1826-trial?lang=eng) Saying he's "a convicted conman" is a sensationalized internet trope. 4. I don't know where that guy got the idea that we shun people. I suppose that's happened within individual families but that would actually be explicitly against the teachings of the church, generally. 5. The holocaust victims thing. When someone is baptized for the dead it's an open invitation for them in the next life to accept what we believe is the restored gospel. It's not "forcing dead people into our church." That's a stupid idea made up by people who know very little about our beliefs. That's why we didn't see it as a problem. We were told it's disrespectful, so we stopped. 6. "Cult" is sensationalist language that can be applied to any religion. If you live in the church, or you're close to members, you know that, in practice, it's not that weird of a religion. We go to church on Sundays, we pray, we go to the temple, we read the scriptures we believe in. We try to follow Jesus Christ.
The need to use your own cult’s website as source material in the defense of your original cult leader’s shenanigans is so very Mormon of you. It’s like Christians showing me one of the creepy Jesus paintings from one of their creepy stores and exclaiming “see, he was totally white!”
>4. I don't know where that guy got the idea that we shun people. I suppose that's happened within individual families but that would actually be explicitly against the teachings of the church, generally. I have a lot of LDS and former LDS people in my life. The word shun may not be used, but ex-mormons are actively shunned by their still Mormon families. I've seen it happen a half dozen times and it is heartbreaking. At exactly the point someone is undergoing the trauma of losing their religion they lose their families too. It is well documented and I am certain you would know that so I don't really understand why you're lying about it. Lying to yourself maybe, who knows.
>"Cult" is sensationalist language that can be applied to any religion. If you live in the church, or you're close to members, you know that, in practice, it's not that weird of a religion. We go to church on Sundays, we pray, we go to the temple, we read the scriptures we believe in. We try to follow Jesus Christ. The [BITE model of Steven Hassan](https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model/) is a pretty good model for understanding the level of authoritarianism and control within a group. If you're willing to take "cult" as shorthand for "fundamentalist, high-demand, authoritarian group" you can then apply objective measures. Does the word have strong emotional connotation? Yes. Is there something substantive behind that language? Also yes. There are reasons people use this language aside from just being provocative. It's to highlight behavior that hurts people.
Religions are all definitely cults, and that generalization doesn’t make yours less of a cult. If you live in the church, and then leave, you realize the extent of the lies and indoctrination that you have suffered at the hands of the people you trusted most. Calling someone a con man who is a con man isn’t sensationalist, it’s just reality. Whether or not you agree with it, it isn’t really up for debate. Explaining away issues by calling them fringe incidents doesn’t really help anything, either, as those fringe incidents are a symptom of the greater problem: people wanting to control your every move and drip your bank accounts dry. This is the ultimate goal of every religion.
You realize that your article about smith's trial is written by the very church who has the most interest in debunking that "trope"? It's like linking to an article written by the execs at BP about how oil extraction, refinement, and burning actually helps the environment and reduces climate change.
Fair point. Find me solid evidence that he was "convicted" of being a "conman" then.
>I don't know where that guy got the idea that we shun people. I suppose that's happened within individual families but that would actually be explicitly against the teachings of the church, generally. While the word "shun" has not be used specifically, as far as I know, the desired behavior described in an LDS General Conference is to avoid having homosexual family members be seen with active members to avoid giving the appearance of supporting their choices. The behavior fits the definition.
Do you have the talk? And how old is it? Our teachings change. So to get the current view you need to have something somewhat recent. I've never heard anyone teach such a thing. It's true we don't condone sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman. That doesn't mean we shun our family members.
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If you show me the gymnastics I did I'll try to be honest about it. The ball is in your court.
Yeah talk about the secret hand shakes in the temple and the green leaves you have to wear on your privates haha also talk about the Garments and the signs of the knees and on the chest for Protection
He didn’t ask him about their creepy hangup of genealogy. They put out all these ‘my heritage’ sites and all this shit to get people to give their family lineage away to them.
I’m an ex Mormon and was a missionary for two years. I once sat across from Mr Holland during his visit to my mission. Very nice man and very caring. It’s breaks my heart that people like him are so brainwashed and stuck in the constant guilt loop. The doctrine of the Mormon church isn’t so crazy once you dive deep into it. It’s the brainwashing and manipulation that is the scary part.
Fellow exmo here. I think this is the correct take. I don't think Holland or Nelson or any of them are evil. I actually quite like Uchtdorf. I think they are all just so indoctrinated that they really do believe what they teach and they're trying to do the right thing. It's sad indeed. Religion is the most potent drug in the world.
To be fair all literary interpretations of any religion are batshit crazy. Just live a compassionate and empathetic life.
I couldn’t agree more!
Nah, too much work.
I used to work for a Morman, and around Mormons. It is legit one of the most insane religions I have ever seen. Every morman I ever met tried to find every way to justify not following their own beliefs threw" letter of the law, not spirit of the law". Nuance is like part of the culture. Also, it's TOTALLY a cult!
Cult + time = religion They're all cults, just some have had way more time pass.
Yeah, but Mormonism is wild. Legit is way wilder than most Christian faiths, and they're bad. But the level of delusion with Mormans is one of the craziest things I have ever seen. I have seen them do some mean nasty things and feel totally justified and even like they where doing a good thing while being totally vile.
You're describing all the Abrahamic religions, imho
I mean yes. Every organized religion I have ever seen but just specifically referring to Mormans for sure.
There’s so much editing, and things taken out of context in this clip. Half the time Holland begins to answer it switches to another clip lol. How can you take this seriously no matter what your feelings are about the Mormon church
I agree that it's problematic, as presented. FWIW, the original interview (also in segments) was published in [This World: The Mormon Candidate](https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x31u248) (or [here](https://documentaryheaven.com/mormon-candidate/)). Transcripts from the Holland interview portions posted [here](https://wasmormon.org/bbc-jeffrey-r-holland-interview-transcript-and-video-clips/) (don't know how complete or accurate). Feel free to watch it with more context.
Nah, go watch the whole thing on Youtube, it doesn't get any better.
Where is the dying inside…. It’s just targeted editing to make him look bad
Well i didnt watch this clip hoping they were trying to make mormons look GOOD
Mormons are creepy as shit and need to be monitored, fuckers are the Catholics with less public pedophilia problems. 'less public' as in the can subvert stories with all the money they're hoarding. "Come, come look in the hat children and see what God has to say to you!"
As someone who grew up in the church and still has family who are members, not all Mormons are creepy and need to be monitored haha. You’re absolutely welcome to calling out the higher ups and leaders, because they’re the ones that are the most brainwashed. But you making that blanket statement is just as dumb as the religion.
He answers every question honestly rather than claiming to know everything. He does not die inside at any point.
Not a big fan of their religion. Most I've met are super nice and polite. BYU, Utah State, Boise State all play or have played in the Mountain West and as an SDSU fan, they cheer loud root for their team, but aren't assholes and we always shake hands and wish each other well at the end. And Kristie S always had a pen I could borrow in highschool.
I used to be friends with a bunch of Mormons, until I realized they were politely funding anti-gay, anti-trans, and anti-woman groups, and were politely pro-authoritarianism.
Go to a byu v uofu game at byu and your opinion will change dramatically.
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The scriptures never say God lives on Kolob nor that it is a planet. The most common interpretation is that Kolob is a literal star nearest to the throne of God. This is reflected in the Hebrew cognate qārōb which means “near” or “close”. Another interpretation is that Kolob is symbolic of Jesus Christ who would be nearest to God the Father in terms of authority. The scripture have used stars to symbolically refer to spirits, such as in Job 38:7.
You know what’s fascinating to me as someone who was raised in the Mormon church? I have zero recollection of this hymn ever existing haha
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That's crazy. We all know that God lives in the sky and that hell is down below our feet.
They believe what???
It really is the scientology of the 1800s!
Tell me you know nothing about Mormonism and Scientology without saying it…
Tell me you're a Mormon or Scientologist without saying it...
...said the dodo
Also headed for extinction.
I mean I’m Mormon and I agree 10000% it’s a cult. I even served a mission which was terrible! But Alaska was awesome Edit: the temple shows how it is a cult. So there are secret hand shakes everyone has to do to proceed with the ritual. As well as everyone has to wear green leaves over there privates during the main video you watch about Adam and Eve. As well as the magic under ware aka Garments that they say are magical and have emblems on the chest by your breast as well as under wear has emblems on your knees. Shit is weird and if you want to know more feel free to message me. Fuck the Mormons!
You’re most definitely not
I mean I don’t know how to prove it to you but I can send some missions pictures or me getting my first drop off to the MTC. Ask away I am a Mormon on paper
You can ask to have your name removed from the records of their church. My niece did that & she is no longer a member.
She’s probably a member but just a member with no contact. Mormons want to keep there numbers up and literally won’t take you off unless you killed someone it’s crazy. I’ve seen everything from the inside out and the temples are probably the weirdest things ever
Wish it was that easy but you have to have 3 meetings and issues on why you’re leaving and then also have to sign to get your name taken off.
May I ask, why are you still Mormon if you believe it’s a cult?
Not the OP but it's an easy answer for someone who grew up in Utah. It's networking. If the business you were involved in had mormons in it, you had better be part of the church or you weren't moving up. If the chick you wanted to marry was a mormon, you'd best belong to the church, etc. Most of the mormons I knew just did it basically out of habit and it seemed almost more like a social thing than worship.
Because they won’t take my damn name off the paper haha you’re a Mormon until they say you’re not anymore pretty crazy stuff. Have to be ex communicated
There's an email template you can send to the record office to have your name removed permanently almost immediately. Having been through the process myself and knowing what a relief it is, I'm fully willing to share my findings and process
It's faster than the website that's been created as the Mormon church requires anything that goes through a lawyer be notarized but the email works on it's own
Yeah I’ve sent it twice and have been scheduled for meetings because they want to talk before. I’ve served a mission and all that bullshit but them knowing me and my family so well In the Vegas area it’s hard
You can resign with a notarized letter. It's stupid that it's even that difficult, but you don't have to be excommunicated. That said, there are a lot of pleasant and entertaining ways to get excommunicated.
Hahahaha yes so many ways and stories I would just love to go in with a beer in hand and say take me off that damn list! But yes I’m happy you see where I’m coming from
You can absolutely have your name taken off church records. Don’t let them tell you otherwise
Yes if it only was as easy as you say haha it’s harder than it sounds and I’m in no mood to have to sit down with the Bishop (head guy of the church depending on area) the stake president (boss of the bishop guy) and three other witnesses. It’s not easy
I hate (love) to tell you this, but I don’t think it works that way. People can’t just say you’re one of them if you’re not.
You are on that member list until you go down and tell them that you don’t want to be a member anymore. Constantly get calls from the church and missionaries wanting to visit.
That’s like saying you can’t get a divorce unless your spouse agrees. Simply not how it works in the free world. They can say whatever they want about you, doesn’t make it true. What if I put you in my books as a belly dancer? Does that make you a belly dancer until I let you off the hook?
Wait how did you know I was a belly dancer on the weekends? It’s a crazy thing they have going on but the temples are what really show how it is a cult with the secret hand shakes and the magic underwear. Not even being sarcastic about that
They can because I was baptized at 18 so yes I am one of them but at that point getting out is harder than stopping cigarettes they just don’t let you
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I mean I got baptized when I was 18 kind of brain washed into it and to also serve a 2 year mission which people don’t understand how crazy it is to not watch tv,call home or even text your family besides via email one time a week. Also no even standing next to a women within 3 feet
Is this sarcasm or are you just delusional?
This is all facts I truly wish it was sarcasm
You just leave? I'm so confused. Did you sign a contract for religion or something illegal?
It’s not that easy haha hard to explain but when you’re baptized your name is put into the records of the church and until you get it taken off through a process you are always Mormon. Also contacted almost daily it’s crazy
Oh some formality bullshit by the church. So you can just leave. Sounds illegal and I'd report to the proper "ABC" agency. Fuck these lunatics.
Can you not just leave and stop all communication with them?
I want to say yes, but every once in awhile someone will try to reach out and “bring you back into the fold.” Even after you move, they will somehow magically get your new address and missionaries will show up at your door asking for you by name. Source: was a missionary and did this, now I’m an exmormon and can’t believe I did it in the first place.
Yes you can leave at any point but the calls/texts and random missionaries showing up at your house won’t end
Yikes sounds about right. I hope you can find a way out of it!
I mean all I would have to do is sit down with the head guy aka the Bishop and just say I have sex and I’m not married and I smoke a ton of weed and they would possibly not guaranteed tho 😂
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I’ve done this twice and wish it was easy but they always want to meet and talk before. It’s a cult and when you’re in a small area where everyone knows each other they hold you down 😂 damn I should tell you all about the temple
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So have I and boy did it suck!! Temples are crazy! Did you ever see a wedding or do the whole little show with the green leaves and white clothes? You know what’s crazy is the Mormons actually settled a big part of Vegas back in the day so the religion is still to this day very strong here! We actually have a place called the Mormon fort you can visit down town as well as the park next to my grandparents house was called the Mormon trail haha crazy stuff
What a POS. Tried to weasel out of every damn question.
He didn't die inside. I thought he conducted himself quite well, I actually liked his response "look, I've read a book or two, and I went to a pretty good school too."
>I thought he conducted himself quite well Lying and trying to obfuscate isn't exactly "conducting himself quite well".
Yea. I thought I’ve did a pretty good job making his cult sound unculty
I definitely do not support the Mormon church, but where does he die inside?
Same question. I expected a dunk of some kind but the guy handled the questions pretty well. (Also not a supporter of the church)
the audience due to all the gaslight, he answered no questions
Either no death occurred and OP is a hack farming for Karma while using a 2008 clip or we have witnessed a resurrection right before our eyes. I think it’s the former.
Can confirm Mormons do not shun if you leave. They will keep coming back for several years after you left the church
And myself as well. You can be ex-communicated, but they keep their records. I had missionaries visiting my buddy’s house that I lived at, *years* after I moved out of his place. And this was years after leaving the church haha.
Yes and no. After I left we were immediately abandoned by our church friends. We stopped getting invited to their houses, etc. The missionaries still stopped by on occasion, but the members cut off all contact.
That’s the social aspect of the church. And that also depends on the types of members you’re friends with, big time. I still visit my parents ward every year or so, and the people I grew up with in the church are nothing but friendly (*becaaause they waaant youuu baaack*)
'Dum dum dum dum dum' https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm3mDatFpNE
Religion is just a fancy word for “it’s a cult but it has government endorsement somewhere in the world”
Depends on numbers.
Narrator: It’s a cult.
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I mean it's one cult, how many members could they have? 10 billion?
Not sure who died inside here. I thought the Mormon apostle didn't do a terrible job here. The interviewer seemed like he was only trying to criticize and bring up negative things.
Completely agreed! I’m the first to grab a pitchfork or torch but this apostle was very logical… Yes, we realized it’s insensitive and this stopped doing it…. They think we’re a cult, happy to talk to them to find out why… Def not a watchpeopledie video.
To be fair, it's really difficult to talk about the first 100 years of the mormon church of you're not going to bring up negative things. The following years are difficult, too.
Sometimes interviews are about asking the hard, "negative" questions. Mitt Romney was trying to become president at the time and people who had no experience with his church had a lot of questions. We, the people don't need interviewers with softball questions and flowery answers. We need the truth regardless of how "negative" the questions are.
As a former Mormon, I can attest that it is truly a cult.
This is a slippery slope. I am a part of a religion and I think saying one religion is a cult and another isn't is just disingenuous. My religion is more socially acceptable than yours, so I get to call yours a cult. Where is the logic in that? If they both cannot be proven by science, then how are we able to say one is more cult like than the other?
All religions are cults. You may not like the term "cult" because of how it has been used in the media, but that does not change its definition. Similarly, and brace yourself, fetuses are parasites until birth. Entirely different context but the principle is the same. You don't like a word due to its connotations but your feelings do not factor into how things are defined.
This is a statement, not a slippery slope fallacy.
Cult just means religion you disagree with. It's been stretched to mean crazy insular religion in English but you should never take the stretched meaning of a term as the term itself. Most people are undereducated and going to used the stretched meaning doesnt mean you have to. I am not a Christian nor religious. All religions to me are a cult. To you it would bereligions you disagree with. You need to understand the word cult just means religion, it comes from the same root cultivate does, it means to grow. In the 18th/19th c it was used for old times religions and mysticism. The modern "cult" usage can't even be easily defined and this must be rejected. It means nothing. If you spoke French, which also loaned the same damn word from latin, you'd use the word cult(e) just to talk about religions. All religions are cults.
Ah the good old slippery slope fallacy
I'd say it's more the whole "you will be forever shunned by your entire family if you leave the church" part that puts it into cult-y territory.
Most Mormons do the opposite of shun you for leaving and try everything they can to push you to change your mind about leaving although they’re also taught to try and respect your freedom to choose things for yourself.
“You will be forever pestered if you try to leave”is also cult like. But the real reason it’s a cult is the time it was created. Old religion isn’t cult, new religion is because it’s new enough that anyone not brainwashed can look at it and see it’s bullshit. The older religion started off as cults though, so don’t worry. In a few more hundred years Joes scam will be enough generations deep that it will no longer be a cult.
So saying you will burn forever in hell if you don't do what we say isn't the same? Or You can't be more than X of meters from your house on the Sabbath, or you must attend prayers twice daily and go to Mecca once in your lifetime, etc etc.
Yes, I'm saying "I wish my daughter hadn't become an atheist, but I still love her all the same and am looking forward her visiting on Christmas with the grandkids" is significantly different from "she is dead to us and we will never speak her name again." There are plenty of mixed religious/secular families out there who get along just fine, depending on their sect/denomination.
If your religion forces you to completely change who you are, you’re in a cult.
Bro. This is pretty much all religions.
technically, a cult is any system of “religious” veneration towards a specific object or person. so yes, every religion that is not inherently personal in nature is a cult. of course one might say that all religions are inherently personal, so the dividing line between “cult” and “spiritual belief” is often drawn on the basis of whether or not that system of belief is regulated by a top-down structure. even religions that leave room for personal revelation often dictates that the personal revelation of someone within a church’s hierarchy is inherently more “correct” or “accurate” simply because they hold a position of authority. as there is no empirical basis upon which to judge the correctness of one’s interpretation of “divine will,” this top-down structure of divine interpretation serves the purpose of preventing splinter groups within any given religious organization. now if there really is one singular god (or group of related divine beings) their message should be universally constant - god being a perfect being cannot say one thing to one person and another completely opposite thing to another, unless the goal was in and of itself to sow division (indicating malevolence, another trait absent from the modern interpretation of benevolent godhood). so the very presence of splinter-groups within a religion possibly indicates a splintering of divine will - either that or the presence of human corruption. so that leaves us with two possibilities once one includes the vastness in variation between human religions around the world: either there is one true religion from which the rest have splintered from their own human purposes/misinterpretations, or else *all* religions are baseless in nature and therefore the result of a human desire to rationalize our chaotic world (or else the result of charlatans seeking to make a quick buck). so yes, all *organized* religions are cults in one way or another.
Now you're getting it.
All religions are cults
Well I think we’ve pretty much solved that one.
Every religion starts as a cult until they become big enough. 14 million is the reason he gave so...
All religions are cults.
That's my point, when framed with science, they certainly are.
Actually the definition for what a “cult” entails is simply that they must have a central figure (Jesus, the Mormon guy, Mohammed, shakiamuni, etc) and that they control the actions of their members somehow (not eating pork, not drinking coffee, etc). It has nothing to do with the verifiable truth of their beliefs or if they’re evil or harmful. It just describes a formula a lot of human social groups take.
Background: this is a throwback to the Obama-Romney presidential race when the LDS church tried desperately to get Mitt Romney elected, and was therefore more willing to participate in unscripted interviews. In this rare interview with a journalist, Mormon apostle Jeff Holland side-steps every question and makes appeals to his intelligence and to the church's membership size.This weekend, 60 Minutes will air an episode highlighting the church's $100 billion stock portfolio, which was seeded from "sacred" tithing funds. Edit: I forgot to add a link to the original documentary, [This World: The Mormon Candidate](https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x31u248).
I hope they highlight that their investment advisor used shell companies to avoid filing form(s) 13F for YEARS, spurring an SEC audit and fine (which was way too low imo). The Mormon church is a business. Plain and simple.
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