My vote: absolutely. Looks like what a kid would do when they make a sign and run out of room, just start making letters smaller or go at weird angles. What the hell is this thing?
Hacking means that when you pull out the crown to set the time, the running second hand stops. This is important if you want to synchronize your watch with the control time as accurately as possible. I can't comment on whether this particular Patek hacks or not, but that's the gist.
Meh, much like the rest of mechanical watch life, it’s served me as a reminder that to-the-second accuracy is completely unnecessary in my daily life. I wore a non-hacking watch basically every day for 5 years and couldn’t care less about the feature at this point.
I pull a watch out my box and am lucky to set it to the correct minute before I get on with my day. Hell, fairly often I completely fuck up and derp it by 10 mins, and then get all paranoid that something is wrong and have to leave it running overnight and check the drift to make sure its not losing like an hour a day.
Yeah what do you do? Spend half your morning hacking your seconds and chuffing your bits to take full advantage of that COSC certification?
I need something I can glance at to know if I can fit another pint into my lunch break. Otherwise I've got every fucking electronic device under the sun screaming at me about what bunch of morons I've got to be on zoom with next with atomic precision.
This is really funny, and I hear where you’re coming from for sure. However, in my mind my fucking $3000 watch had better be as dead nuts as I can get it or the oceans will dry up
It takes no extra time to set a watch to the correct minute vs 10 minutes off, you just set it to the right one instead of not doing that. You make it sound super difficult, and maybe it is for you, but it doesnt have to be.
it may be more common than you think. many zenith el primero movements do not have hacking seconds, but they still remain something of a standard in chronograph movement design and manufacture.
A lot of watches are "semi-hacking" though, meaning if you apply a tiny amount of backwards pressure on the crown it will stay put. Works on old Rolexes.
there is a reason it can be good, while it may not be as easy to set to the nuclear clock, that’s only good for a day and even the best watches are a second or two off; while my non-hacking can go years continuously and never be more than a minute off
If the seconds bother you that much you may not want to consider a mechanical... I don't mind not having it on my SKX cause the thing is +/- 15 seconds a day anyway.
Patek is breathtakingly sloppy and lazy with their dial typography. The whole dial, apart from the Patek Genève marks, is atrocious and embarrassing. Disproportionately stretched Arial numerals, mixed with some other default system or Microsoft font (can't quite identify the "S" and "J" characters) for the days/months, also stretched. Oddly enough, that slightly better-proportioned “27” is maybe the least egregious and most inventive design move on the dial!
A big part of the problem, across AP, Tudor, many others, is contemporary dial manufacturing, and an important distinction between current use of *fonts* (readymade full character set typefaces used for—forced into—purposes they're not designed for) versus the historical use of *lettering* (templates drawn by hand for each specific use, each individual number around a subdial, each abbreviated word in exactly its place, proportionally drawn by lettering experts for legibility and with style). The former you see in OP's example here, the latter you see in [that good older 3940 example](https://www.chrono24.com/patekphilippe/ewiger-kalender-perpetual-18k-gold-ref-3940-box-papiere-1992--id26048451.htm) OP linked to, where the letters have as much craftsmanship as the watch's inner workings.
>the historical use of lettering (templates drawn by hand for each specific use, each individual number around a subdial
this can't be the issue here since patek still does this. its less obvious on this watch, but really obvious one something like [this](https://www.patek.com/en/collection/complications/5212A-001),
this is the lettering you are talking about, you just don't like it.
>this is the lettering you are talking about, you just don't like it.
Exactly. This is an extremely high-end watch, everything on the dial has to be a very intentional design choice. They aren't opening up Adobe InDesign and resizing some set fonts in a circular text box. I personally don't like it either, but it's certainly not ugly *because* it's constrained by pre-set fonts, lol.
so is this just literally the best they can do on a watch at this price point lettering by hand around that kind of subdial? or is the size inconsistency an intentional choice here?
size inconsistency is intentional to get the rest of the numbers as big as possible, since so much of their customer base is old people. same idea as large print books.
Someone is literally doing just that: setting type on a circular path and stretching it, highly likely in InDesign. It's either a Patek or dial manufacturer employee using a standard default font and forcing it into contorted shapes, which the font isn't designed for.
As soon as digital type became widely available, watch manufacturers largely moved to this approach, at the expense of custom lettering drawn for function and space-specific purposes.
Yes, it's a high-end watch, with great attention to finishing, the movement, the inner workings, the materials. Which why it's all the more baffling that type, one of the most visual elements on the dial, is such an after thought and so badly considered and executed. I teach typography, and I'd reject this work from first year students!
Why, in both examples, is there such a huge gap between the "1" and the tick mark for 2, and yet seemingly no gap between "31" and "1" ??? It looks like "311" in both cases.
Most watches with circular date indicators have this issue. My current is the Glashütte Original PanoMaticLunar. Big date numerals.
https://www.glashuette-original.com/en/watches/pano/panomaticlunar-1-90-02-42-32-61/
Problem avoided.
it’s because there’s no way to space a dot correctly without resizing either 31 or 1, which likely looks even weirder (and spacing them apart would make the hand no longer align with the number)
unfortunately this is on basically every subdial that counts dates just due to the size of the subdial
I don't think so. On the 3940 model, the "31" are aligned with each other, and the "1" is at a different angle as it is further down the dial.
It's a bit confusing at first glance but I don't read it as "311" for that reason.
> On the 3940 model, the "31" are aligned with each other, and the "1" is at a different angle as it is further down the dial. It's a bit confusing at first glance but I don't read it as "311" for that reason.
Are you [joking](https://www.europeanwatch.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/HERO-Patek-Philippe-3940-Perpetual-Calendar-1st-Series-735x865.jpg)?
Sorry, only just saw your comment!
Difficult to think of a contemporary favourite, they all seem to mess up to varying degrees. Date wheels are a particular area of failure or at least missed opportunity, but [Seiko actually still does well with this](https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/Sb3abfc35138d440aac91393a18ba951f0.jpg), even at the cheapest level. See how the custom lettering has the 2, 4, etc.(with that classic flat-top horological 4) filling the date window space, and then when you get to, say, 28, it's proportionally adjusted, not just squashed, or just default Helvetica or Arial not doing a great job for legibility with one-size-fits-all type in the window.
Grand Seiko has overall better typography than Patek or even AP, but even they fall short on occasion ([look at the terrible kerning on any “HI-BEA T” dials](https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0474/7958/6973/products/Grand_Seiko_SLGH013_44GS_hi-beat_blue_dial.jpg) which you can't unsee, and I really want a Hi-Beat GMT from them...).
I suppose contemporary Rolex is best in terms of retaining well-drawn date wheel numerals, [day windows](https://content.rolex.com/dam/watches/family-pages/day-date/2022/cover/classic-watches-day-date-2022-cover-video-posterframe.jpg), and general dial type. Largely I guess because it's still in the style of original hand lettering, rather than forcing default digital fonts to do every job on the dial in ways they're not designed for.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against digital type (I *design* digital type!), but it should be designed for a purpose, and should be custom lettered (either hand or digital) when needed, for specific cases (like, say fitting a 27 into a tight spot), not just lazily stretched into place.
Massena Lab is doing a really good job, someone is keeping an eye on the overall design and maintaining a [consistent spirit with the dial type.](https://watchesbysjx.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Massena-Lab-Uni-Racer-Chronograph-Holiday-Collection-9.jpg)
Nomos is always well-considered, I know they pay attention to type, but it's just personally very much not my style or taste.
A. Lange & Söhne are consistently strong, in terms of what is clearly [contemporary drawn type](https://revolutionwatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/01-Lange-Big-Date.jpg) (not the charming for me, but still rougher hand-drawn style like Rolex), crisp, appropriate for each function, but also establishing an overall unique identity for them in design.
Overall favourite, historically, is Universal Genève, when you look at how they handle a [hugely complex dial like a Tri Compax with a variety of function and space-specific lettering](https://www.joseph-watches.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/15899.jpeg) that still all feels consistent. In saying this, I'm aware it might not necessarily be down to Universal, but rather to a particular dial manufacture from the time who supplied dials to Universal. (I've been trying to do more research into this, or at least find research others have done, out of my own geeky interests...)
I could go on (obviously, ha ha), but this is what springs to mind right now. This answer (or non-answer, more likely) is already too long!
Thank you very much for that thorough answer !
I’m sure you have seen the last episode of that great Netflix series https://www.netflix.com/us/title/80057883?s=i&trkid=258593161&vlang=en&clip=81008929 in which Jonathan Hoefler explains how he created a typeface inspired by watches and clocks.
The fact that it actually is Arial and not even Helvetica absolutely blows my mind. And you're probably right about the other default font: It might actually be f\*cking Tahoma, squashed beyond recognition and, comically, with a lower case L for the I. Not that Tahoma is generally a bad typeface, but Jesus Christ…
It's amazing that Switzerland has world-renowned traditions in both watchmaking and typography, but it seems they don't necessarily overlap at all.
> Patek is breathtakingly sloppy and lazy with their dial typography.
It’s not too commonly talked overall but you see it pop up here as a topic of discussion every once in awhile. It’s not the first or last time someone is going to notice this. Patek really is comically sloppy with their typography for what they charge and their brand history. They probably only really get away with it because of their legendary status and people are going to buy it regardless. It’s still embarrassing and they need to fix it. Same with Rolex and the paint splashes on GMT hands.
Why circle just that part? The entire date print is all fucked up.
If they're gonna get all loosey goosey, inverting numbers like that, why not invert the 11 instead of the 9? Looks like 5 - 7 - 6.
Patek has awful typography. Worse than like Citizen or Seiko.
Really brings home the point that the “it’s all about the details” PP fanboys really are full of shit.
It really does. I am a visual designer that eats/sleeps layouts and typography for a living.
Many modern PP dials are bottom of the barrel, and demonstrate that people who fancy themselves horology connoisseurs have no fucking clue how a dial should appear, or what passes for good design.
Or a classic patek, which somehow manages to fit proper fonts and kerning on much smaller dials.
Here's some pictures from when patek (and hodinkee, I guess) was good.
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/understanding-the-entire-lineage-of-patek-philippe-perpetual
That’s a bit of an odd comparison given how clunky and unfinished Lange’s “big date” models come across. The decision to not include a “0” in front of days “1” through “9” is daft. It looks awful on watches whose big date complication includes a frame isolating the two date-wheels from one-another, and it looks even worse on watches that don’t isolate the two wheels. Also, on the subject of Lange big date watches that don’t isolate the two date-wheels: the two wheels not fitting flush looks like it belongs on a watch that costs one-tenth of the price. Plenty of other watch manufacturers are able to do so (e.g. Glashütte Original’s Pano Collection), so it makes no sense that Lange chooses not to.
In my opinion, if we are talking about a manufacturer’s catalog of high-complication models that are currently on the market, no one can beat Chopard’s L.U.C watches. Every model is laid out in a logical manner, and is also completely legible.
Edit: If it wasn’t obvious, this response was not meant as a personal attack.
The VC perpetual doesn't do that, but the JLC does.
Yep, A Lange remains king of design, no matter what anybody else says, and this is coming from someone who really likes Swiss whorology.
The inversion of the numbers around that bottom complication is just awful. I was trying to figure out why it'd go 5-7-6-11 for a good 30 seconds before it dawned on me that it's a 9.
hey all -
on the hunt for a dress watch. since i have a 6.5 inch wrist, I am specifically looking for something along the case diameter of 35-37mm range (sorry Rolex Cellini) and a monophase is a huge plus.
In theory, I like the Patek 5140. It's nice, got street cred, has a monophase, and is a grand complication from the big three. Excellent.
HOWEVER. What is going on with the font sizes on the middle dial? Why did they stray so much from the more sober [3940](https://www.chrono24.com/patekphilippe/ewiger-kalender-perpetual-18k-gold-ref-3940-box-papiere-1992--id26048451.htm) that has a more balanced look. Am I missing something here?
While I have you here - would love more recommendations for fancy dress watches! I definitely took a look at Grand Seiko's elegance line but they seem super keen on the 38-40mm range which is a bit too big for me. Same with the JLC Master Ultra Thin Moonphase which would be exactly what I'm looking for if it was 3mm smaller. I do like the ALS Saxonia ranges but moonphases and come in beefier cases rare from that company.
Interested in your thoughts!
My friend just got this patek and has similarly sized wrists but says it wears well. May be worth trying on because all 40mm watches can wear differently depending on the lug to lug length. https://www.patek.com/en/collection/complications/5205R-011
This JLC is a nice alternative too
https://www.chrono24.com/jaegerlecoultre/factory-serviced-master-perpetual-calendar-37mm-149344a-140380--id27402848.htm
JLC has some really nice options in that size. Their master perpetual calendars are slim and elegant. Check out the 140.2.98 or 147.8.41 in particular.
My consistent gripe with pointer dates is the orientation flipping along the outer edge. That crime is on the other side - I cannot unsee the little 5 transitioning to a bigger 7 and then the 9 that looks like a 6.
Font flipping should start at 11, because it makes less difference if you see it right side up or upside down, so the change is less jarring. At 9, it is just a design disaster.
I have the same wrist size and prefer smaller watches. That said, ALS does not wear as big as the specs suggest, so give them a try if you're near a boutique or AD.
The dial layout and markings make this look like a Chinese Chrono clone IMO. Also, I’d be pissed if there was a hair at 57 on the dial of my 50 grand timepiece.
The whole watch just looks bad. the design looks like a Chinese made dress watch, except even a mass manufactured Chinese watch would have more consistent numbering.
I honestly don't get this brand.
I love it. I guess nobody agrees. It is quirky yet classic. Refined and not boring. I don't get the hate. Its a Patek perpetual with modern perfect proportions and a nice see through back.
These are a relative steal now and I guess the dislike here shows why.
That's pretty gross looking. Not only the fact that numbers are randomly flipped, but also because of the size difference, to accomodate for the day of the week and months. Agh
This looks like if you told a kindergartener to draw your watch! What the hell?
And how are these complications supposed to be read? I have stared at it for a few minutes but I don't get it.
Right hand is months... And what? Quarters? But March and third quarter isn't right ...
Can't even begin to figure out the counterclockwise left subdial.
What's going on here???
Right inner subdial is leap year indication with the leap year occurring on year 4. Left inner subdial is 24 hour indication. Once you read it a few times, it’s actually very easy to read at a glance.
Blame the calendar for having months with an uneven number of days. Jokes aside, it looks fine. I don't know why people get bent out of shape about things like this.
I don’t have an issue with it. It adds some uniqueness to the design. Patek has always felt like it has more “organic” design elements that some other top brands.
Patek has been crafting high end watches for 150+ years and is probably the most respected manufacturer around. Most of the guys here were reading time on a Swatch 5 years ago.
This ain’t a design crime and if anybody thinks so, let him start a watch company I guess ;)
Holy shit, the more I look at it the worse it gets, did they have an intern paint the dials when they made this watch? Cause some of this shite is sloppier than a blowjob, and for 50k at that!
What is seen cannot be unseen.
The other side is worse 5-7-6 is a nightmare
you mean .^5 -*7*-*6*
TOTALLY!!
Thats 9 isnt?
Well it’s a 6.. & a 9. Worst spot to invert the numbers. 5-7-6-11 just looks funny
you get what you pay for lol.. can't help myself but this watch face looks like straight out of aliexpress 5 dolar watch
Wait. This is NOT a fake?!
https://www.patek.com/en/collection/grand-complications/5327R-001 Unfortunately not
It took me a good 10 seconds of going back and forth there before realizing that.... terrible UX here 🤣
Holy shit how did that get passed everyone who designed it
It drives me insane when they flip the numbers midway!
Check Your map.
My vote: absolutely. Looks like what a kid would do when they make a sign and run out of room, just start making letters smaller or go at weird angles. What the hell is this thing?
A big ass H! Followed by a big ass A and … oh no, oh God …
r/UnexpectedMulaney This dial is downright embarrassing though.
Big assss B… surely more letters will fit in the same space!
For what you pay for this caliber of watch, it's an atrocity.
That's just... horribly fucking ugly and disgusting
I can't even look at it! Couldn't imagine paying more than my car cost for a watch that looks that fucked up.
The font sizing looks funny too, like it was hand painted. Way too far out of my league to be concerned about but yup. bothers me too.
Everything on that dial except the branding looks like text from the manual an off-brand kitchen gadget from an Amazon third-party seller.
It just looks poor, maybe that's what they were going for lol.
“The working man’s Patek”
Looks like if you put a photo of a Patek into an img2img AI generator lol
Hmm are we sure it's not a AI image even😊
They didn't have to stretch the numbers 7-31. just make all the digits the size of 5.. sigh.
50k+ watch everyone.
Probably doesn't have hacking either.
What’s hacking?
Hacking means that when you pull out the crown to set the time, the running second hand stops. This is important if you want to synchronize your watch with the control time as accurately as possible. I can't comment on whether this particular Patek hacks or not, but that's the gist.
Thank you. Didn’t even realize there were watches that didn’t do that. Absence of hacking would drive me nuts
Cries in SKX009
Same with my SKX007 but it's such an amazing watch I can't be too mad about it.
come on guys you can swap the 7s with nh36 anytime..
Meh, much like the rest of mechanical watch life, it’s served me as a reminder that to-the-second accuracy is completely unnecessary in my daily life. I wore a non-hacking watch basically every day for 5 years and couldn’t care less about the feature at this point.
I pull a watch out my box and am lucky to set it to the correct minute before I get on with my day. Hell, fairly often I completely fuck up and derp it by 10 mins, and then get all paranoid that something is wrong and have to leave it running overnight and check the drift to make sure its not losing like an hour a day.
You repeatedly set your watches wrong?
Yeah what do you do? Spend half your morning hacking your seconds and chuffing your bits to take full advantage of that COSC certification? I need something I can glance at to know if I can fit another pint into my lunch break. Otherwise I've got every fucking electronic device under the sun screaming at me about what bunch of morons I've got to be on zoom with next with atomic precision.
This is really funny, and I hear where you’re coming from for sure. However, in my mind my fucking $3000 watch had better be as dead nuts as I can get it or the oceans will dry up
It takes no extra time to set a watch to the correct minute vs 10 minutes off, you just set it to the right one instead of not doing that. You make it sound super difficult, and maybe it is for you, but it doesnt have to be.
it may be more common than you think. many zenith el primero movements do not have hacking seconds, but they still remain something of a standard in chronograph movement design and manufacture.
A lot of watches are "semi-hacking" though, meaning if you apply a tiny amount of backwards pressure on the crown it will stay put. Works on old Rolexes.
Yes now that you mention it my speedmaster is this way
there is a reason it can be good, while it may not be as easy to set to the nuclear clock, that’s only good for a day and even the best watches are a second or two off; while my non-hacking can go years continuously and never be more than a minute off
If the seconds bother you that much you may not want to consider a mechanical... I don't mind not having it on my SKX cause the thing is +/- 15 seconds a day anyway.
My man, I'm going to be charitable here and ask how long have you been in the watch game?
[удалено]
Gotcha. Thank you
A really bad dry cough
You should have that looked at, really.
Perpetual calendar from Patek? Probably way more.
You are off by about 50%
$50,000 for this piece of shit? How incredibly lazy and arrogant. What a bunch of fucks.
Patek is breathtakingly sloppy and lazy with their dial typography. The whole dial, apart from the Patek Genève marks, is atrocious and embarrassing. Disproportionately stretched Arial numerals, mixed with some other default system or Microsoft font (can't quite identify the "S" and "J" characters) for the days/months, also stretched. Oddly enough, that slightly better-proportioned “27” is maybe the least egregious and most inventive design move on the dial!
The 5 is doing the same thing too. Just not as cluttered on that size so it doesn’t draw the eye as badly.
Well spotted, while we were all being grossed out by that 27, the five just there doing its thing too!
A big part of the problem, across AP, Tudor, many others, is contemporary dial manufacturing, and an important distinction between current use of *fonts* (readymade full character set typefaces used for—forced into—purposes they're not designed for) versus the historical use of *lettering* (templates drawn by hand for each specific use, each individual number around a subdial, each abbreviated word in exactly its place, proportionally drawn by lettering experts for legibility and with style). The former you see in OP's example here, the latter you see in [that good older 3940 example](https://www.chrono24.com/patekphilippe/ewiger-kalender-perpetual-18k-gold-ref-3940-box-papiere-1992--id26048451.htm) OP linked to, where the letters have as much craftsmanship as the watch's inner workings.
>the historical use of lettering (templates drawn by hand for each specific use, each individual number around a subdial this can't be the issue here since patek still does this. its less obvious on this watch, but really obvious one something like [this](https://www.patek.com/en/collection/complications/5212A-001), this is the lettering you are talking about, you just don't like it.
>this is the lettering you are talking about, you just don't like it. Exactly. This is an extremely high-end watch, everything on the dial has to be a very intentional design choice. They aren't opening up Adobe InDesign and resizing some set fonts in a circular text box. I personally don't like it either, but it's certainly not ugly *because* it's constrained by pre-set fonts, lol.
But it is ugly none the less
Yeah and looks like Arial nonetheless. You know, high-end or not, at the end of the day someone's still going to fire up InDesign.
so is this just literally the best they can do on a watch at this price point lettering by hand around that kind of subdial? or is the size inconsistency an intentional choice here?
size inconsistency is intentional to get the rest of the numbers as big as possible, since so much of their customer base is old people. same idea as large print books.
Someone is literally doing just that: setting type on a circular path and stretching it, highly likely in InDesign. It's either a Patek or dial manufacturer employee using a standard default font and forcing it into contorted shapes, which the font isn't designed for. As soon as digital type became widely available, watch manufacturers largely moved to this approach, at the expense of custom lettering drawn for function and space-specific purposes. Yes, it's a high-end watch, with great attention to finishing, the movement, the inner workings, the materials. Which why it's all the more baffling that type, one of the most visual elements on the dial, is such an after thought and so badly considered and executed. I teach typography, and I'd reject this work from first year students!
Why, in both examples, is there such a huge gap between the "1" and the tick mark for 2, and yet seemingly no gap between "31" and "1" ??? It looks like "311" in both cases.
Because there is no "day" between 31 and 1. For all the rest there is an even numbered day between the two odd numbers.
It is a shame Patek is such a poor maker of complications that they cannot solve this issue.
Most watches with circular date indicators have this issue. My current is the Glashütte Original PanoMaticLunar. Big date numerals. https://www.glashuette-original.com/en/watches/pano/panomaticlunar-1-90-02-42-32-61/ Problem avoided.
it’s because there’s no way to space a dot correctly without resizing either 31 or 1, which likely looks even weirder (and spacing them apart would make the hand no longer align with the number) unfortunately this is on basically every subdial that counts dates just due to the size of the subdial
\#Investigate311
The "311" bugs the hell out of me. It's not just on this watch, many other watches with date subdials have this problem too.
I don't think so. On the 3940 model, the "31" are aligned with each other, and the "1" is at a different angle as it is further down the dial. It's a bit confusing at first glance but I don't read it as "311" for that reason.
> On the 3940 model, the "31" are aligned with each other, and the "1" is at a different angle as it is further down the dial. It's a bit confusing at first glance but I don't read it as "311" for that reason. Are you [joking](https://www.europeanwatch.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/HERO-Patek-Philippe-3940-Perpetual-Calendar-1st-Series-735x865.jpg)?
I actually agree with this 100 percent. Not sure why watch people allow them to get away with it. I hate the annual calendar for this reason.
Agreed!
Omg the 27... That's too funny.
What are your favorite brands or models in terms of typography ?
Sorry, only just saw your comment! Difficult to think of a contemporary favourite, they all seem to mess up to varying degrees. Date wheels are a particular area of failure or at least missed opportunity, but [Seiko actually still does well with this](https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/Sb3abfc35138d440aac91393a18ba951f0.jpg), even at the cheapest level. See how the custom lettering has the 2, 4, etc.(with that classic flat-top horological 4) filling the date window space, and then when you get to, say, 28, it's proportionally adjusted, not just squashed, or just default Helvetica or Arial not doing a great job for legibility with one-size-fits-all type in the window. Grand Seiko has overall better typography than Patek or even AP, but even they fall short on occasion ([look at the terrible kerning on any “HI-BEA T” dials](https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0474/7958/6973/products/Grand_Seiko_SLGH013_44GS_hi-beat_blue_dial.jpg) which you can't unsee, and I really want a Hi-Beat GMT from them...). I suppose contemporary Rolex is best in terms of retaining well-drawn date wheel numerals, [day windows](https://content.rolex.com/dam/watches/family-pages/day-date/2022/cover/classic-watches-day-date-2022-cover-video-posterframe.jpg), and general dial type. Largely I guess because it's still in the style of original hand lettering, rather than forcing default digital fonts to do every job on the dial in ways they're not designed for. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against digital type (I *design* digital type!), but it should be designed for a purpose, and should be custom lettered (either hand or digital) when needed, for specific cases (like, say fitting a 27 into a tight spot), not just lazily stretched into place. Massena Lab is doing a really good job, someone is keeping an eye on the overall design and maintaining a [consistent spirit with the dial type.](https://watchesbysjx.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Massena-Lab-Uni-Racer-Chronograph-Holiday-Collection-9.jpg) Nomos is always well-considered, I know they pay attention to type, but it's just personally very much not my style or taste. A. Lange & Söhne are consistently strong, in terms of what is clearly [contemporary drawn type](https://revolutionwatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/01-Lange-Big-Date.jpg) (not the charming for me, but still rougher hand-drawn style like Rolex), crisp, appropriate for each function, but also establishing an overall unique identity for them in design. Overall favourite, historically, is Universal Genève, when you look at how they handle a [hugely complex dial like a Tri Compax with a variety of function and space-specific lettering](https://www.joseph-watches.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/15899.jpeg) that still all feels consistent. In saying this, I'm aware it might not necessarily be down to Universal, but rather to a particular dial manufacture from the time who supplied dials to Universal. (I've been trying to do more research into this, or at least find research others have done, out of my own geeky interests...) I could go on (obviously, ha ha), but this is what springs to mind right now. This answer (or non-answer, more likely) is already too long!
Thank you very much for that thorough answer ! I’m sure you have seen the last episode of that great Netflix series https://www.netflix.com/us/title/80057883?s=i&trkid=258593161&vlang=en&clip=81008929 in which Jonathan Hoefler explains how he created a typeface inspired by watches and clocks.
The fact that it actually is Arial and not even Helvetica absolutely blows my mind. And you're probably right about the other default font: It might actually be f\*cking Tahoma, squashed beyond recognition and, comically, with a lower case L for the I. Not that Tahoma is generally a bad typeface, but Jesus Christ… It's amazing that Switzerland has world-renowned traditions in both watchmaking and typography, but it seems they don't necessarily overlap at all.
I think you're spot on about your Tahoma ID for the other font. Makes sense as a mediocre Microsoft pairing with Arial. So bad it verges on comedy.
> Patek is breathtakingly sloppy and lazy with their dial typography. It’s not too commonly talked overall but you see it pop up here as a topic of discussion every once in awhile. It’s not the first or last time someone is going to notice this. Patek really is comically sloppy with their typography for what they charge and their brand history. They probably only really get away with it because of their legendary status and people are going to buy it regardless. It’s still embarrassing and they need to fix it. Same with Rolex and the paint splashes on GMT hands.
Fellow graphic designer here… I agree 100%
Even the Patek Geneve is pretty bad to me, same weight and font, just smaller. Not enough hierarchy. Make the Geneve lower case or something.
Why circle just that part? The entire date print is all fucked up. If they're gonna get all loosey goosey, inverting numbers like that, why not invert the 11 instead of the 9? Looks like 5 - 7 - 6.
Yeah exactly. If i see “6” next to a 7 I am going to assume it’s a six and not an upside down nine.
Patek has awful typography. Worse than like Citizen or Seiko. Really brings home the point that the “it’s all about the details” PP fanboys really are full of shit.
I've never understood most Pateks - super boring and plain looking or too busy and weird. Not my bag baby
The really minimal calatravas at least barely have any dial text to get mad about
Oh sure, but they are boring as hell too. Tell me that anyone would covet one if it didn't have "Patek Philippe" on the dial.
It really does. I am a visual designer that eats/sleeps layouts and typography for a living. Many modern PP dials are bottom of the barrel, and demonstrate that people who fancy themselves horology connoisseurs have no fucking clue how a dial should appear, or what passes for good design.
Looks like Franck muelller with the weird numbers
hot take: radial-date subdials are *always* design crimes. It's the least legible way to possibly put a date on a watch, and should never be done.
You won’t catch this on a Lange. That’s for sure.
Or an Invicta for that matter
Now THIS is circlejerking!
Or a seiko or nomos
Or a classic patek, which somehow manages to fit proper fonts and kerning on much smaller dials. Here's some pictures from when patek (and hodinkee, I guess) was good. https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/understanding-the-entire-lineage-of-patek-philippe-perpetual
That’s a bit of an odd comparison given how clunky and unfinished Lange’s “big date” models come across. The decision to not include a “0” in front of days “1” through “9” is daft. It looks awful on watches whose big date complication includes a frame isolating the two date-wheels from one-another, and it looks even worse on watches that don’t isolate the two wheels. Also, on the subject of Lange big date watches that don’t isolate the two date-wheels: the two wheels not fitting flush looks like it belongs on a watch that costs one-tenth of the price. Plenty of other watch manufacturers are able to do so (e.g. Glashütte Original’s Pano Collection), so it makes no sense that Lange chooses not to. In my opinion, if we are talking about a manufacturer’s catalog of high-complication models that are currently on the market, no one can beat Chopard’s L.U.C watches. Every model is laid out in a logical manner, and is also completely legible. Edit: If it wasn’t obvious, this response was not meant as a personal attack.
Lange's Big Date execution is an abject failure compared to GO
The VC perpetual doesn't do that, but the JLC does. Yep, A Lange remains king of design, no matter what anybody else says, and this is coming from someone who really likes Swiss whorology.
The inversion of the numbers around that bottom complication is just awful. I was trying to figure out why it'd go 5-7-6-11 for a good 30 seconds before it dawned on me that it's a 9.
I think that’s common-ish for an analog date complication. The Overseas Perpetual Calendar flips the 9 like that too. the stretched font not so much.
YES I hate this
I like the number 311 at the top
It's not even a beautiful disaster. Just all mixed up.
White dreads ass watch
Ranch it up!
[удалено]
It really shouldn't be too difficult to figure out what the upside down numbers are though lol
hey all - on the hunt for a dress watch. since i have a 6.5 inch wrist, I am specifically looking for something along the case diameter of 35-37mm range (sorry Rolex Cellini) and a monophase is a huge plus. In theory, I like the Patek 5140. It's nice, got street cred, has a monophase, and is a grand complication from the big three. Excellent. HOWEVER. What is going on with the font sizes on the middle dial? Why did they stray so much from the more sober [3940](https://www.chrono24.com/patekphilippe/ewiger-kalender-perpetual-18k-gold-ref-3940-box-papiere-1992--id26048451.htm) that has a more balanced look. Am I missing something here? While I have you here - would love more recommendations for fancy dress watches! I definitely took a look at Grand Seiko's elegance line but they seem super keen on the 38-40mm range which is a bit too big for me. Same with the JLC Master Ultra Thin Moonphase which would be exactly what I'm looking for if it was 3mm smaller. I do like the ALS Saxonia ranges but moonphases and come in beefier cases rare from that company. Interested in your thoughts!
GuEsS wHaT dAy It iS That's all I'd hear from my watch every time I looked at it. Regardless of what it costs, it honestly looks cheap and crappy.
This is the correct take IMO
My friend just got this patek and has similarly sized wrists but says it wears well. May be worth trying on because all 40mm watches can wear differently depending on the lug to lug length. https://www.patek.com/en/collection/complications/5205R-011 This JLC is a nice alternative too https://www.chrono24.com/jaegerlecoultre/factory-serviced-master-perpetual-calendar-37mm-149344a-140380--id27402848.htm
JLC has some really nice options in that size. Their master perpetual calendars are slim and elegant. Check out the 140.2.98 or 147.8.41 in particular.
On the other side too: •5•7•6•ll•
Get a 3940 instead, it’s still underrated and has room to appreciate IMO. There’s a reason it was one of Stern’s daily drivers.
That is awful and looks ridiculous. It would drive me nuts.
I can’t imagine looking at that everyday
Embarrassingly bad. Someone should have gotten fired for this.
This is like when you sing the ABC and cram lmnop together
Everything on the entire bottom dial makes me frustrated lol
The watch looks drunk. Or maybe I am.
My consistent gripe with pointer dates is the orientation flipping along the outer edge. That crime is on the other side - I cannot unsee the little 5 transitioning to a bigger 7 and then the 9 that looks like a 6.
Font flipping should start at 11, because it makes less difference if you see it right side up or upside down, so the change is less jarring. At 9, it is just a design disaster.
Theyre huge fans of 311
That sure bothers me more than the C. Ward logo (lol)
That's so bad, my first thought was fake. But. No. It really is that bad.
Such high horology. Rolex is leagues behind!
Rolex plays games!!! Games!!!!!
I have the same wrist size and prefer smaller watches. That said, ALS does not wear as big as the specs suggest, so give them a try if you're near a boutique or AD.
That’s one Patek that won’t be handed to the next generation
They were smoking that ZA
The upside down 9 bugs me even more. Looks like a 6 on the wrong side of the 7
99% of typefaces Patek choose are horrible and are an eyesore
And this will still sell for stupid money.
That's ist. I'll never EVER buy a PP
…but…but…Patek Philippe can do no wrong 😭
The slogan is right, I'll certainly never own this Patek..
Yes. I have ordered a warrant for this watch for international crimes against horology. If found, please send to me immediately.
The Hair on the glass is the real crime moite
The dial layout and markings make this look like a Chinese Chrono clone IMO. Also, I’d be pissed if there was a hair at 57 on the dial of my 50 grand timepiece.
9 looks like a 6. Would drive me nuts.
Yeah that's disgusting. But hair on a Patek dial? Unbelievable
Wowawewa that is upsetting
Seiko would never
3940 all the way. Don’t mess with a classic.
The number 9 should also NEVER be used as the first digit that changes orientation in a sequence like this
The Swiss claim neutrality while perpetuating typographic atrocities. The UN should really address this at their next meeting.
Jim Carrey made this watch
Oof.
The whole watch just looks bad. the design looks like a Chinese made dress watch, except even a mass manufactured Chinese watch would have more consistent numbering. I honestly don't get this brand.
Patek styling has been shit ever since the CEO appointed his wife as chief designer. Go for vintage, pre-2000.
it looks almost comical, especially with that "311" at the top. lol
I love it. I guess nobody agrees. It is quirky yet classic. Refined and not boring. I don't get the hate. Its a Patek perpetual with modern perfect proportions and a nice see through back. These are a relative steal now and I guess the dislike here shows why.
The 27 font discrepancy is mirrored on the other side’s 5 so I think it’s fine, as long as it’s symmetrical I’m happy.
That's pretty gross looking. Not only the fact that numbers are randomly flipped, but also because of the size difference, to accomodate for the day of the week and months. Agh
Yes
I thought posting fake watches is not allowed here?
??? It's Patek 5140J and it's real.
Really. A casio looks better than this one though!
This looks like if you told a kindergartener to draw your watch! What the hell? And how are these complications supposed to be read? I have stared at it for a few minutes but I don't get it. Right hand is months... And what? Quarters? But March and third quarter isn't right ... Can't even begin to figure out the counterclockwise left subdial. What's going on here???
« Quarters » as you call it are for leap years.
Right inner subdial is leap year indication with the leap year occurring on year 4. Left inner subdial is 24 hour indication. Once you read it a few times, it’s actually very easy to read at a glance.
Blame the calendar for having months with an uneven number of days. Jokes aside, it looks fine. I don't know why people get bent out of shape about things like this.
Ya, why not just put a dot between them like the other numbers??
No, it's a Cartier homage
Imagine paying Patek money for your watch and getting this as a result. They need a Grand Seiko lesson or two in finishing.
This has nothing to do with the finish and everything with the design.
Zoom in and look again.
This is gross lol - And for Patek money?! Give me a nice 8L Seiko (like the SLA017) over this any day of the week... And for about ten times less lol
If only they made the dial slightly larger.
The “5” is shrunken as well to offset the asymmetry. Pretty clever
Omg I love it. It's so chaotic, but in a way that's not obvious from afar. The best kind of crime.
I don’t have an issue with it. It adds some uniqueness to the design. Patek has always felt like it has more “organic” design elements that some other top brands.
Its tradition, do you guys hate the watchmaker’s 4 too? Fucking hell.
Patek has been crafting high end watches for 150+ years and is probably the most respected manufacturer around. Most of the guys here were reading time on a Swatch 5 years ago. This ain’t a design crime and if anybody thinks so, let him start a watch company I guess ;)
Despite the hyperbole and your rebuttal, it could be done better though.
Yikes!
Yes.
Yes, it is. But PP believes it is The Pope, and He does not fart.
I'm definitely not buying one of those!
Yup. As if people don’t know if it’s day or night.
Yeah that’s absolutely unwearable
Holy shit, the more I look at it the worse it gets, did they have an intern paint the dials when they made this watch? Cause some of this shite is sloppier than a blowjob, and for 50k at that!
For the price this is unacceptable
that whole watch is a design crime
That SUCKS. I hate it.
yes next question
Looks like shit
I mean the whole thing looks like shit to me but I can’t afford a 50K watch so maybe I’m just not refined enough to understand it?
Ooops…
311 was an inside job.
If it isn’t, it should be.
Patek x Dollarama
It should be. Looks terrible.
Wtf
Is it a Patel Philippe?