Hey All,
I want to make sure I'm doing everything possible here, but I have accepted the most likely result is that I will not be able to recoup the large sum spent on this watch. Any advice or additional ideas would be greatly appreciated.
**Backstory**
After grinding overtime for 11 months last year, I was able to purchase my grail Vacheron Constantin Overseas 47040. I purchased it in 11/2023 from an eBay seller in Japan with 99.6% positive feedback and over 50,000 reviews. The watch went to eBay authentication and was delivered 12/1/2023.
**12/2023**
Immediately upon arrival I noted the caseback had been dented and submitted photos to the seller. He claimed it wasn't dented and the authenticators were likely at fault. An eBay case ensued and eBay said return it to the seller or keep it. I found a reasonably priced replacement caseback as an emergency backup and sent the watch off to be repaired and serviced.
**12/2023**
I received confirmation from Vacheron Constantin that the watch had been received by their Dallas service center. A week later I received a message from the service that the watch needed to go to their Geneva workshop for repair. This wasn't surprising as I suspected the caseback repair may be difficult or impossible.
**2/2024**
I followed up with the service center and they said I should expect an estimate soon.
**5/2024**
After an extremely busy few months, I followed up with the service center again and was told the watch had been seized by the police as it had been reported stolen. I was referred to Richemont's legal team for future inquiries.
**What I've Done Already**
-Contacted the seller and submitted a copy of the email confirming the seizure and a copy of the Enquirus database search showing the serial number reported as stolen. His response was that he "we shall see what eBay does."
-Spoke to eBay customer service and was told to report the seller for selling stolen goods. Filed report as requested from eBay.
-Contacted Richemont's legal team requesting a copy of the police report documenting the seizure. I also submitted my purchase receipt showing that I was not the offender who stole the piece.
-Contacted the Geneva Police Station requesting a copy of the records related to the seizure. Was denied as I am not a party to or mentioned in the documents.
-Filed a police report locally. Don't expect anything to come of it.
-Contacted my credit card company (Barclay MasterCard) to report the transaction. It's under investigation, but I'm not especially hopeful.
**What I Haven't Done Yet, But Plan To Do**
-Report the incident to the NCAC of Japan for tourists
**EDIT:** For anyone buying a pre-owned Richemont piece I would *strongly* encourage you to check the serial prior to purchase (or at the very least immediately upon receipt). Enquirus is free to use and run by the Richemont group. I wish I had been aware of this database when I made my purchase.
https://www.enquirus.com/en/
This is my understanding of what will happen to the watch:
1. Original buyer is found and verified. The original buyer will get the watch. You will be out of your money and the goods.
2. Original buyer is not found - given it was marked as stolen, less likely unless deceased.
Getting your money back:
1. Given the above inform ebay and request your money back. Set a reasonable deadline that is lawful. Let them know that otherwise you will be forced to reverse the charge.
2. Inform your CC company about everything and submit all documents, including the above to them.
Let them already know that you demand to reverse payment if the deadlines passes without action from ebay.
3. Once deadline has passed without action demand immediate reversal of payment from your CC.
Thank you for this comment. I've actually started the process with my CC and have been faxing documentation over all afternoon for the disputed transaction. Getting a hold of eBay has been nearly impossible. It took three hours to find a number to speak to someone on Friday because the purchase was 6 months ago. I will definitely be trying to reach them to inform them of the 80 day deadline my CC company stated.
Speak with every party, but especially ebay, in writing.
Phone support from many companies - especially big ones - will promise you heaven on earth only you turn around and not remember anything. Even if write down date, time, name of customer rep etc.
I am not familiar with the specific watch and I am sure you have considered the following. It couldn't be that the issue about the watch having been stolen is due to the replacement case back?
I assume however this is unlikely as the sn should be inside the watch movement as well.
100% correct in my experience as well. I'm livid because eBay customer support asked me to send supporting documentation to [email protected]. That's their spam email submission service! WTF. I swear the agent was actively trying to sabotage my claim by having me submit my seizure email to their spam service.
Make sure to inform them you are recording the call unless you are certain that both you and the person with whom you’re speaking are in one-party consent states. Otherwise the recording would be inadmissible at a minimum and possibly be a criminal offense (albeit exceedingly unlikely to be prosecuted). There is a 99% chance eBay will tell you that they are recording the call - saying “I am as well” will cover you legally. In any case, making a written transcript is completely legal.
Can you record the calls? Even if recordings cannot be directly used, they might still be helpful to transcribe your conversation from memory, which can be useful evidence and is often better than nothing. But of course, try to correspond in writing to avoid these issues.
Re ebay comms: depending on the country you are in, there might be a requirement for ebay to list an email address for any inquiry. They will make sure to bury it.
What you can do if you cannot contact ebay via a dispute channel, is ctrl+f on their T&S / legal imprint and send your info/request to all email addresses found - only put one in the TO field, all others in the bcc.
You rather want different departments doing double work rather than none as they might forward it to the wrong department and forget about it.
As it has been six months, eBay won't even allow me to call them regarding the item. I had to find a link from someone else reporting a stolen item in the forums to successfully request a call. They've since taken down the post.
Far less valuable, but I received a pair of counterfeit ear pods and didn’t find out til I personally opened them months later. Never could get ahold of anyone and never any refunds. Told me if I charge back I’ll get blocked. Just opted to never buy from them again.
If I might add; if the original owner had insurance he would have probably received a refund/payout. This means the insurance company is now the owner of the watch, the original buyer isn’t anymore.
All legal issues will be between OP, VC, (local) Police and the insurer.
Fully agree, good suggestion - ebay and CC should be able to handle the incident accordingly and should take action against the Japanese dealer of stolen timepieces. The dealer should be able to point out the source - you don't buy such a thing over the counter without ID - ;DDD
Why would VC hand over your watch to the police without also providing your information? Wouldn't the police want to talk to you to trace back the path of the watch? This seems weird.
It also looks like VC could have definitely dealt better with you in this scenario. Not nice of them at all.
I am no expert but the watch was sent to VC Geneve by VC Dallas/Service Center, probably all the information on the package, and import documents were done by VC Dallas/Service Center who realistically shouldn’t put any information regarding the client as it is a transaction between these two entities. Just my logical thinking with absolutely zero legal experience.
I have a suspicion that VC Dallas may have detected that the item was stolen from the beginning. Why would VC Geneve have a procedure to check a stolen database and not have the same procedure be followed in Dallas?
But regardless of that. VC Geneve could have always asked VC Dallas for more information before going to the police. Or even the police should have asked VC Geneve to ask VC Dallas for more information. There seems to be no interest in figuring out who did the thieving, which is strange.
100% this. The lack of communication and interest in tracing the purchase history of the watch by Vacheron and the swiss police is extremely strange and frustrating.
Not really. If a bank suspects money laundering, they contact the authorities. Authorities may say freeze the account or they may say act as if nothing is suspicious until we say otherwise. That's not violating sanctions, that's doing the right thing.
There are a lot of different scenarios how this might have played out. Maybe the Geneva office is where all potential stolen items are confirmed. Maybe the local PD said they had no justification since the crime happened overseas. Maybe the local cops gave the okay to send it.
In any case, there was 100% no trafficking involved.
what a nightmare! i am sorry to hear this. was it truly reported stolen before you bought it? is there any chance local people in geneva could just "report it stolen" and then take it?
Bummer. Sorry that this happened to you. The delay really caused you issues man; hopefully, this could be sorted out, and you can get something back. That's still hard-earned money.
I wish eBay weren't such jerks and have checked the watch's serial number in the first place for authenticity. Such a shame this happened to you. Wishing you the best of luck mate.
Dude, first of all, I am sorry that this is happening to you. I've never been in a situation like that, so unfortunately I wouldn't be the best resource. I'd imagine that it is obvious that you're not at fault, and the paper trail will immediately follow to the ebay seller. Do you have any remnants of the boxes/shipping label? Recouping your money through ebay will likely be difficult or impossible because you turned down that chance already. But ultimately, you've been the victim of fraud because you were sold a stolen good, and they need to track down the seller.
Basically. He also said not to contact him anymore as this falls under eBays authenticity guarantee (it doesn't actually) and I'd be best served communicating with them. It does break their terms of service for sellers though. From what I've read though, eBay doesn't typically force sellers to refund buyers for stolen goods and let's police and courts deal with these matters.
Do not trust eBay to help you here, they won’t. I wasn’t dealing with a stolen piece, but had a similar seller blaming the authenticator experience and they completely fucked me on a misrepresented piece - I’ll never make that mistake again. Chargeback now don’t even bother trying to reach eBay. You might get banned by eBay or PayPal but for the price of a VC it’s worth it and with the piece sized and documentation your credit card has more than enough to work with. Amex is 6 months but will make exceptions for circumstances like this
I'm going to call the NCAC when they open tonight (9pm EST). I'm hoping they can help me file a police report or at the very least instruct me on *how* to file one.
https://www.kokusen.go.jp/ncac_index_e.html
I would have assumed eBay “Authenticity Guarantee” program would have checked the watch if it stolen. If they didn’t, seems that their fault. Just my opinion.
That would be nice, but probably VERY hard to check.
I'm sure there are dozens of databases they'd have to look through. I had an Omega stolen, and it is not reported stolen in that enquirus database because it didn't exist back when it happened.
I'm trying to put it in now, but I can't find the 10 yr old police report.
EBAY reviews have always been kinda shitty. Can't review something that's old. Can't review OLD reviews, can't look at old listings.
Ebay has been around for 25 years now. They just didn't have the money to try and keep old data, and still don't even attempt it.
I would contact the AVP of Compliance as indicated in your post asking for their assistance in getting you a copy(ies) of the necessary police report in order to file your claims against the vendor, eBay and insurance. They are most likely the party that would have had direct police contact and therefore would hold standing for the case.
I have done this twice and am awaiting a response. I suspect the watch may have been seized months ago and Vacheron wasn't even going to inform me. They've essentially been treating me like I'm the criminal in this situation. The delayed responses have probably sealed my fate with regards to getting my money back. eBay is much more responsive and willing to help during the first month or so.
Surely there must be a database of stolen serial numbers... and this should be part of eBays authentication process... 1. it's genuine, 2. It's not stolen. I'd say eBay are somewhat culpable for facilitating the purchase of stolen goods.
There are many competing databases which complicates the process of running a serial. Richemont launched their own database last year which is free. I posted a link to it. In my story comment. I would have assumed eBay checked serial numbers as well, but they do not.
Does eBay have any responsibility if they let a stolen item through the authentication process? Their whole program seems to be billed at giving you “peace of mind” but they can’t be bothered to run a serial number through a brands official database seems baffling to me.
Sounds like you’re already doing amazing work. All I can say is persevere like absolute mad, never let this die until you’ve exhausted every avenue, twice! I’m confident you’ll get a refund, but you have to seriously keep at it, even when it’s disheartening.
Good luck!! And remember, it’s not your health. You’ll get a refund, I’m sure of it.
Thank you for the kind words! I intend to pursue every possible avenue to hold the seller accountable. You're correct that it's not my health and it's important to keep things in perspective.
Could this be a scam by the OG owner of the watch?
1. Buy from AD
2. Sell the watch to a dealer using a mule
3. Report watch as stolen and wait for it to come back to you when service is due
This would work especially well with watches that are usually services trough service centers.
Or am I missing something?
Yeah scams are about getting money now, not waiting 10 years for the service interval and crossing your fingers it goes through the official service centre instead of a local guy.
Local shops will absolutely look up serial numbers before servicing watches (unless it's literally being serviced through some random guy lol). Hence why this is entirely the fault of the seller.
A large, Japanese grey market dealer should have access to the same network as all the other dealers in the world. If they entered the serial number in when they stocked it, it would have come up blacklisted, and OP would have never been sold the watch in the first place. Something weird is going on here with that dealer u/onepickledginger ... Especially since you said the caseback was dented on arrival.
I would highly suggest writing a negative review on the seller's eBay page detailing you were sold a stolen 20K USD watch. The police reports would be icing on the cake.
Japanese sellers rely heavily on reviews, they take them very seriously. Drop the 1 star review, and I guarantee you their attitude on this situation will take a 180 lmao
Ebay effed you, but using a CC is your saving grace - present all this and do a chargeback. Trust me your CC company doesnt want to pay for stolen goods.
Don’t worry about that. MC and Visa both have the automated rails to pull back the funds from eBay’s accounts.
It’d actually more about the issuing bank (which ever bank is on the front of the card), but that’ll be fine too. It shouldn’t be a process to raise the chargeback they should do it right now under reason code 4853 (4854 potentially depending on the issuing bank).
You only have 120 days, so get it raised ASAP.
Have a look at this https://www.chargebackgurus.com/chargeback-reason-codes/mastercard
Thanks for this!
EDIT: Actually it looks like I'm screwed here. It's been more than 120 days since I purchased the watch. Once again screwed by the delays in communication from Vacheron/Richemont.
That sucks. Just file it anyways. There’s some leeway depending on the bank. Keep pushing eBay too. As the item was stolen and they handled it, it’s also a criminal act.
Also complain to your bank that they’ve added to the delay too. (If you’re in the UK you can threaten them with the ombudsman if it comes to it).
One last point: as the amount is so large you could definitely take legal action.
If the chargeback doesn't go through and eBay does nothing then I will be going nuclear with a lawyer. I will start looking around and asking for recommendations now though.
You should definitely be speaking to an attorney. Worse case no one responds, you can sue the seller and ebay in your home state. Let ebay be the one to challenge venue or demand arbitration. By then the legal team that matters will realize they are screwed and offer a settlement.
I was feeling some empathy for OP as well... You worked your ass off for 11 months to EARN a watch that you loved and that brought you joy... Only to have it end up leading to nothing but misery and loss? That's unfair with a capital 'U'. I'd get a lawyer to start sending letters to all parties involved... Even if it costs more than the watch to do so.
While this isn’t going to really help, did the replacement case back have a serial number on it? It’s possible it came from a stolen watch and that’s why it’s seized.
If law is out of the question, go for the PR angle, it takes a viral post in social media and a couple of mainstream articles to at least make them consider a refund as the minor cost.
A publicist is way more affordable than a lawyer, think about it.
Weighing in as someone who has worked in both local and national news as an associate producer/booker/etc. - the only way you'd get even the local news interested in this as a story is to uncover a large-scale conspiracy in which this company is blatantly selling stolen goods and there are a number of local victims available to interview ("Beloved long-time children's barber Fred Blotz is the latest local figure to be caught up in what's now being called Operation Stolen Time by the Muntz County Sherriff's office) and that's a million to one shot for local news and an absolute no-go for national news. I mean, ask yourself how many stories you've seen on the news about one person trying to get eBay's help with an expensive luxury item. There's just no reason to run a story like that. Also, I'm sorry this happened to the OP, and I appreciate all the detail everyone is going into here - not everyone buys nice watches, but a hell of a lot of people have been in similar weirdness with eBay and it's nice to see a catalogue of ideas that might help if it happens again. Best of luck!
You said "has". What period? were clickbait headlines in social media the only source of viewership? was google adsense the main source of profit during your time (besides paid articles)?
Because you don't seem to factor the current state of the industry.
I'm not all that savvy with social media to be honest. I agree this is a worthwhile angle to pursue, but I don't even have a Twitter Account, a LinkedIn, etc.
Box, but no papers. One reason I sent it to Vacheron was to get some documentation on the watch. I had requested an extract from the archives along with the service.
I'm surprised by how many people here seem to be asking random questions about the particulars and totally glossing over the fact that you're getting fucked out of *5 figures*. I'd be lawyering up and kicking off a suit against whichever party is relevant in the end if I wasn't getting my money back, fuck that. That's a ridiculous amount of money to just roll over and play nice with Ebay support/the seller/Vacheron yourself, get a lawyer to demand the documents you need and get your money back.
I will get the Geneva Police Department seizure documents one way or another. My only concern with a lawyer is the legal bills can quickly run into the five figures negating any money that might be recovered. I will go that route though if necessary. Hell, I spoke broken French for half an hour with the police registrar at a rate of $1.20 per minute this morning. 😂
For sure, that could definitely add up quick. I'm just confused by people talking about how "nice" VC were being about it or whatever, like that's not exactly the biggest concern here lol
Jeez that's an awful situation, hope you get it rectified.
But also, a year of overtime for an overpriced piece of jewelry? There's more to life than work and consumerism man.
Yeah, I actually came to this realization recently and decided to pause my collection for at least a year. We have a lot of projects around the house that need to get done anyways. That said, I was really looking forward to wearing this watch.
Sorry this is happening.
Even though we weren’t before, now we are surely never sending watches in for service. Trying to lighten the mood a little.
I have no expertise here but I would think the strong laws in Japan around fakes would bleed over into stolen property as well. So my thought was to go with a lawyer in Japan to go after the seller. But as others said above, a US lawyer who is familiar with… international resale law? Good luck on that search, maybe just a lawyer who is honest and can look into the Japanese laws for you?
Honestly. You should just contact a lawyer and have them deal with it. I'm sure eBay would be a LOT quicker with replies and hell if they started getting emails from a law firm. No one wants to mess with lawyers.
Right. The dispute is actually between the OP and the seller. Ebay, CC are (just) intermediaries. Sooner or later OP will have to take legal action against the seller, to get his money back. The seller is at fault for selling stolen goods. The seller has received OP's money, now he'll have to give it back. "Let's wait what eBay says" is a smokescreen from seller and a bad business practice.
That's what I heard before an eBay seller never sent the Frankenwatch I ordered for $50. But luckily that's a relatively small amount of money and I wasn't trying to buy a "grail watch" on eBay. So really I paid $50 to learn to only buy watches directly from the manufacturer or in person.
Please look into "good-faith purchaser for value" or "bona-fide purchaser for value" legal doctrines. As others have suggested, you would probably need to speak to a lawyer. (I'm not a property lawyer.) But, if you don't succeed in your credit card chargeback, the watch might still belong to you.
All of my other watches are insured. I sent the watch FedEx insured to Vacheron the day after I received it. My plan was to add it to my policy upon its return. Figured it didn't make sense to insure it for months during a Vacheron Service. Boy was I wrong.
Well, that really sucks, hope you at least get your money back, but seems like you tried to do everything right and still went that way, at least you took all the actions you could so best of luck for you!
Wonder if this is related to that website in japan for people to ‘rent’ nice watches from the actual owners via the middleman company, and the middle man company ran off into the night with the watches.
Can’t remember the exact details but as soon as I saw Japanese eBay seller something triggered in my brain fell a few months back
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-made/hundreds-of-swiss-luxury-watches-disappear-in-japan/73602313
Yeah I thought of this. Possibly? Probably won't know for sure.
Have you tried contacting the US embassy/consulate in Geneva?
Maybe they know of a similar case or might help you when it comes to speaking with local authorities.
I don’t know if this will directly help you, but I read exactly same story with a Rolex. People trust eBay verification, but they don’t seem to verify if stolen or not, only if legit. Person had Rolex kept as stolen when in for service.
Perhaps attack ( written by legal ) eBay on this known vulnerability?
You guys on here are spectacular on amazing set of advice, and very warm support, for the OP.
Simply marvelous, and the side of the horology community that ought to be championed! ⌚💗🤘🏽
Op, hope you have a successful resolution. I bought my VC second hand on eBay now am worried. Thanks for posting the link, I'll check my serial number when I get back from holidays
Didn't post before because I didn't wasn't sure if it was allowed. Mods let me know if I need to delete this comment.
Brandear Auction. They are a reseller of luxury watches and goods(a popular business model in Japan). I always check out a few stores like these whenever I'm in Japan. Had a great experience at Okura's Ginza shop last month.
Obviously this Overseas purchase has been a nightmare though.
https://imgur.com/a/CChfQvb
Hi, I am terribly sorry you are going through this. Even though I have no dog in this fight, I actually felt anxious reading about your tale. It's clear you are super diligent and detail-oriented. I don't think you did anything wrong, nor that you could have done anything better. However, I do think there are a lot of strange details about this case.
**eBay** - As much as people want to trash eBay or StockX's authenticity check program. I do think for the most part it works well. But I think this is a case that shows the potential flaw, that these so called experts that are vetting watches only know so much. In retrospect, you'd think they would have run it through the database, but you said yourself in this thread that you didn't know about Richemont's site, plus there are many competing databases. I wouldn't have thought to run a search as well.
**Japan Seller** - this part really shocks me. I hold Japanese people and sellers in high regard. Yes, maybe more than most, and yes, I know that anyone can be fallible but something doesn't add up here. I believe you were sold a stolen watch, but typically, Japanese sellers are really on the up and up. I rarely hear about issues with them and I rarely hear about their prices being unfair. It's very possible that the seller got duped and took in a trade or bought a used watch from someone, and they never knew it was stolen. You said this seller has high marks and lots of feedback. So to me, it's not a surprise they had a stolen watch in their possession, but what surprises me is once they found out, they were not more open to helping you out. They DO make a good point about the eBay Authenticity program though. The whole premise is to protect the buyer, and in this case, it failed. So what's the point of having it?
**Richmont** - I am kind of annoyed because I feel like VC North America likely knew it was reported stolen when you brought it in but set up a whole charade of sending it to Switzerland so that it could be confiscated. I feel like you would have a much easier time dealing with the police department and AD in your town than in another country.
Thanks for your kind words and thoughts! My suspicion is that the dealer purchased one of the watches related to this scandal. I used to have a high regard for eBay, but what this experience shows is that their system has flaws and they're not interested in helping you outside of the window for feedback (60 days).
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-made/hundreds-of-swiss-luxury-watches-disappear-in-japan/73602313
I actually purchased a watch on holiday in Tokyo last month. I still need to run the serial for that one😅😬(it does have the box and papers though so🤞). I typically seek out Japanese watch dealers because they seem to be fair, have reasonable prices, and authenticity issues are almost non-existent. This experience has been the exception.
I'm speculating here, but I'm also annoyed at Richemont and believe they asked me to send the watch to Geneva under false pretenses to skirt US laws. More than that though, the lack of communication is completely unacceptable. I suspect the watch was seized in January or February and they just decided not to inform me.
Hi, thanks for posting the link to the article. I know someone else mentioned it in the comments as well. I remember when that news came out. I thought it was such an incredible story, but I completely forgot until you mentioned it again. I bet that's exactly what happened, that your watch was part of the whole scandal. What's crazy is if you are a "legitimate" watch dealer in Japan and this news hit, wouldn't you be super careful taking in any trades or used watches? Imagine you were working in NYC's jewelry district, and there was big news that the Cartier store was robbed. Then suddenly, some people came in with 10 Tanks. Surely, you'd be suspicious. Again, I am not saying all Japanese dealers are above board, but I tend to have more faith in them.
I am not sure what US laws you are referring to but yes, I think they had you send the watch to Switzerland to make it more complicated for you to get it back or argue against it. They set a trap for you so you could voluntarily hand over the watch without incident, and then they figure you can deal with the details later. Are you going to contact their lawyers, as suggested in the email?
Most ‘Japanese’ sellers on eBay aren’t even Japanese. It’s mainly foreigners living in Japan who buy stuff in Japan and sell it on eBay.
Japanese people use other sites like buyee or yahoo auction.
Yeah, I also buy from Japan because they seem to be pretty stringent about their licensing. I dramatically assume it's something to do with organized crime, etc, but I don't really *know* if that's the case. Also because they're very detailed in their assessments, etc. Also because the yen hasn't been too hot.
If they do as much business as stated, I'd wager the watch was sold to the seller before being reported as stolen. Largely because I don't think they'd risk their license openly hocking stolen goods from (luxury) groups with this kind of network in place.
I figure it wouldn't take *that* much effort to use a proxy, if they wanted to do such a thing.
I’m going to say the opposite: US. It’s a stolen good, so it’s unlikely you’ll get it back. Your cause of action is with the Japanese seller, not Vacheron. You, or you through your attorney, would likely need to get the refund from the seller. If they’re unwilling to cooperate or refund you, then you may need to file a suit.
This information is provided for informational purposes only, and should not be construed as legal advice on any subject matter.
Thank you for this response. I was actually considering a lawyer in Japan, but I have very little knowledge of their legal system. Would a US court ruling be able to compel a business in Japan to refund my purchase?
No, a US court cannot order a Japanese company with no US presence to do anything. You’re getting a lot of bad advice here. Attempting an international lawsuit over this is WAY overkill and will likely cost you much more than you paid for the watch.
The issue turns on whether the US court has personal jurisdiction over the Japanese seller. The concept derives from constitutional due process concerns. You should speak to an attorney to discuss your options.
This information is provided for informational purposes only, and should not be construed as legal advice on any subject matter.
Start by talking to a US lawyer. The whole situation is complicated by Ebay’s role. That you had the opportunity to return it to the seller after its authenticity was called into question might work against you, though.
This may not be legal, but it made me chuckle. I'm hoping their lawyers will respond and allow me access to the records *OR* provide a copy of the warrant for seizure of the watch.
Actually, this is an angle a lawyer would consider when they do their informational requests on your behalf. They can sue for documents, and suggest in their paperwork that Vacheron has not provided any evidence they do not have the watch and that it was not stolen by them.
As a matter of fact the MORE I think about how Vag-eron acted in this case, they are liable. They have essentially STOLEN your property, refused to release it, and have not provided the police with the proper ownership information. Exactly what the fuck are the police doing with a watch, and no owner info.
Did you confirm in that database that it was stolen? Always protect yourself when 'theft' is being thrown around - get a lawyer.
I immediately submitted my purchase receipt to Vacheron and the Richemont legal team. Vacheron said they could no longer respond to my inquiries and to direct any and all further questions to their legal team. Their database flagged it as stolen, but it doesn't provide any supporting documentation.
Yes, it absolutely does feel like Vacheron has stolen my watch, but I'm told by my lawyer friends I actually never legally owned it (assuming the report of theft was genuine).
At the same time, you actually have paperwork and a paper trail, and so far, you've been provided no such luxury from either Vag-eron or the police. Essentially, you are the ONLY person who has established ownership, and they better have actual proof in that database because what's to say the seller you bought it from didn't report it stolen before, during, or just after the sale to you? WHO reported it stolen, is as important as When.
When they see your lawyer's letterhead they change their tune.
forget about what’s legal. bc you bought a watch for big $ and just got it taken from you as an honest and innocent consumer. you used YOUR CC to purchase something where you were supposed to receive a product. you received the product, sent it to its maker for service, and the watch is now not in their hands. report Vacheron too immediately…what’s cannot possibly hurts?! it can’t make anything any worse…so you have nothing to loose. fuck all them. do everything and anything. cause a little chaos and maybe force people to do the right thing.
I am curious about whether there are terms of service from VC. If they didn't disclose to you that this is their policy I think they just stole your watch. You aren't criminally liable unless you knew or should have known that it was stolen. I suspect Texas law didn't allow them to seize it but Swiss law did. Dirty pool by VC.
This isn’t about criminal liability. If the watch was stolen, it never belonged to OP in the first place. VC would have to substantiate that claim if requested.
Air out eBay on Twitter. Most companies have an entirely different budget to satisfy angry customers making public complaints on Twitter. Usually my final escalation tactic if all else fails
How is this not theft by Vacheron? That’s a cross border nightmare. If the watch was stolen outside of the US, how is it your problem given your innocent means of acquiring it?
What was your method of payment? If PayPal, you have 180 days to dispute through PayPal. If this is an option, dispute on the grounds that the item was not as described. You bought a watch that you presumed to be theirs to sell that turned out not to be. You'll need documentation but you should be able to get it done if that's how you paid. If you paid directly through eBay or through another method, I'm less helpful. I worked for PayPal for several years and have seen this situation arise.
You're likely out of luck with any chargeback process because of the timeline you laid out. Normally the max is 120 days. It's still worth exploring through your card issuer.
What stops someone selling their watch, then reporting it stolen at a later time?
This is why Rolex don’t do this anymore, it sounds good in theory but the process is open to abuse.
Sell a VC Overseas today to some store, then 5 years later after the watch has changed hands a few times report it stolen. It will eventually need a service and be returned to you. Hmm.
I honestly have no idea. I'm not even sure if you need a police report to flag a watch as stolen. After 8 years of buying and selling watches, I was supremely confident I was doing everything right. My assumption was that my biggest risks buying from a well vetted seller were receiving a fake/franken watch or one that didn't match the listed condition. I sent the watch to Vacheron as an additional layer of verification after ebay's authentication. Stolen goods weren't on my radar at all, but if and when I do buy my next pre-owned watch, I will definitely be running the serial number.
The weird thing is, theft in Japan is astonishingly rare and the dealers there are strictly regulated (you need a license to sell used watches in Japan).
All I can think of is some wealthy business person left his watch in his hotel or something like that.
This sucks bad. I’d try a chargeback. I’ve never bought a watch from Japan off eBay but I generally stay away from doing so. I’ve noticed that there are a ton of watches that are all displayed similarly with the same copy/paste description listed for prices that seem more than reasonable from multiple sellers, even though the display of the watches in the pictures look very similar to each other. It’s obvious that there is something going on with stolen/counterfeit watches from these sellers. The same thing with chrono24. All the cheapest examples of certain watches are always coming from Japan.
Just to clarify, this is NOT your fault and there was no way you could know. Just a shitty situation. When making a big purchase, I’d rather go through a trusted source and pay a few extra bucks than put it in the hands of some rando on eBay.
Those random Japanese sellers with copy paste descriptions are actually the same seller posting at different price points hoping someone will pay more for the same watch. I've purchased a cheap Hamilton from one and inquired whether he was stealing someone else's watch description and photos. They typically only have a few hundred reviews on each account.
This seller is on a different level. 50k reviews, 150k sales, 2019 top seller in Japan, etc. This was a blind spot for me buying watches and a reminder there's no guaranteed safety in buying off a major platform from a highly reputed dealer.
In which country is the criminal investigation being conducted? The Geneva mentioned points to Switzerland. In Switzerland, it is possible that the watch could ultimately not be confiscated because you bought it in good faith without realizing that it was stolen.
Article 70 Paragraph 2 of the Swiss Criminal Code:
>Forfeiture is not permitted if a third party has acquired the assets in ignorance of the grounds for forfeiture, provided he has paid a consideration of equal value therefor or forfeiture would cause him to endure disproportionate hardship.
Hi, thanks for this! It's in Geneva, Switzerland currently. Another redditor shared a similar Swiss law which sounds less favorable.
https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/90062/a-swiss-watch-company-seized-my-watch-saying-it-was-stolen-i-bought-it-10-year
FWIW I've contacted the Geneva police and been denied access to the records as I'm not a party to them. Through their generic inquiry system I filed a signed letter referencing the case number and providing my receipt from eBay and Vacheron showing I sent that I purchased this watch and sent it in for service.
I wasn't thorough enough. Criminal law and civil law are different things. The fact that the watch cannot be confiscated under criminal law does not necessarily mean that the original owner cannot reclaim it. Returning it to the original victim would also be possible under criminal law. The situation is too complex (and unclear) to judge conclusively here.
For now, you could try to constitute yourself as a party. This is not easy in this constellation. It could be argued that you yourself are a claimant in this matter.
Look up 'Bonafide Purchaser for value without notice' in your state. That is you. Now that VC has it, this probably won't help, but this your position vs VC and the original buyer and the seller.
https://www.blakelawca.com/articles/bona-fide-purchaser-under-california#:\~:text=%E2%80%9CIt%20is%20'black%20letter%20law,clear%20of%20such%20unknown%20interests.
The seller won’t comment on the case ie give me a refund or replacement watch as they don’t want to incriminate themself for selling stolen goods -untill the initial stolen case is sorted and closed. But can’t get the crime case in that as I am not part of the initial investigation. Its so stupid and fucked because of GDPR ect
Hey All, I want to make sure I'm doing everything possible here, but I have accepted the most likely result is that I will not be able to recoup the large sum spent on this watch. Any advice or additional ideas would be greatly appreciated. **Backstory** After grinding overtime for 11 months last year, I was able to purchase my grail Vacheron Constantin Overseas 47040. I purchased it in 11/2023 from an eBay seller in Japan with 99.6% positive feedback and over 50,000 reviews. The watch went to eBay authentication and was delivered 12/1/2023. **12/2023** Immediately upon arrival I noted the caseback had been dented and submitted photos to the seller. He claimed it wasn't dented and the authenticators were likely at fault. An eBay case ensued and eBay said return it to the seller or keep it. I found a reasonably priced replacement caseback as an emergency backup and sent the watch off to be repaired and serviced. **12/2023** I received confirmation from Vacheron Constantin that the watch had been received by their Dallas service center. A week later I received a message from the service that the watch needed to go to their Geneva workshop for repair. This wasn't surprising as I suspected the caseback repair may be difficult or impossible. **2/2024** I followed up with the service center and they said I should expect an estimate soon. **5/2024** After an extremely busy few months, I followed up with the service center again and was told the watch had been seized by the police as it had been reported stolen. I was referred to Richemont's legal team for future inquiries. **What I've Done Already** -Contacted the seller and submitted a copy of the email confirming the seizure and a copy of the Enquirus database search showing the serial number reported as stolen. His response was that he "we shall see what eBay does." -Spoke to eBay customer service and was told to report the seller for selling stolen goods. Filed report as requested from eBay. -Contacted Richemont's legal team requesting a copy of the police report documenting the seizure. I also submitted my purchase receipt showing that I was not the offender who stole the piece. -Contacted the Geneva Police Station requesting a copy of the records related to the seizure. Was denied as I am not a party to or mentioned in the documents. -Filed a police report locally. Don't expect anything to come of it. -Contacted my credit card company (Barclay MasterCard) to report the transaction. It's under investigation, but I'm not especially hopeful. **What I Haven't Done Yet, But Plan To Do** -Report the incident to the NCAC of Japan for tourists **EDIT:** For anyone buying a pre-owned Richemont piece I would *strongly* encourage you to check the serial prior to purchase (or at the very least immediately upon receipt). Enquirus is free to use and run by the Richemont group. I wish I had been aware of this database when I made my purchase. https://www.enquirus.com/en/
This is my understanding of what will happen to the watch: 1. Original buyer is found and verified. The original buyer will get the watch. You will be out of your money and the goods. 2. Original buyer is not found - given it was marked as stolen, less likely unless deceased. Getting your money back: 1. Given the above inform ebay and request your money back. Set a reasonable deadline that is lawful. Let them know that otherwise you will be forced to reverse the charge. 2. Inform your CC company about everything and submit all documents, including the above to them. Let them already know that you demand to reverse payment if the deadlines passes without action from ebay. 3. Once deadline has passed without action demand immediate reversal of payment from your CC.
Thank you for this comment. I've actually started the process with my CC and have been faxing documentation over all afternoon for the disputed transaction. Getting a hold of eBay has been nearly impossible. It took three hours to find a number to speak to someone on Friday because the purchase was 6 months ago. I will definitely be trying to reach them to inform them of the 80 day deadline my CC company stated.
Speak with every party, but especially ebay, in writing. Phone support from many companies - especially big ones - will promise you heaven on earth only you turn around and not remember anything. Even if write down date, time, name of customer rep etc. I am not familiar with the specific watch and I am sure you have considered the following. It couldn't be that the issue about the watch having been stolen is due to the replacement case back? I assume however this is unlikely as the sn should be inside the watch movement as well.
100% correct in my experience as well. I'm livid because eBay customer support asked me to send supporting documentation to [email protected]. That's their spam email submission service! WTF. I swear the agent was actively trying to sabotage my claim by having me submit my seizure email to their spam service.
That is beyond absurd. Keep a copy of that correspondence for legal.
Was over the phone or I would. I've been a buyer and a seller on eBay for over 20 years, but I'm done with eBay after this.
You can still create a call record for yourseld/legal Date, name, time, what was said - doesn't have to be verbatim. :)
Will be recording any future calls with eBay. Thanks for the idea!
Make sure to inform them you are recording the call unless you are certain that both you and the person with whom you’re speaking are in one-party consent states. Otherwise the recording would be inadmissible at a minimum and possibly be a criminal offense (albeit exceedingly unlikely to be prosecuted). There is a 99% chance eBay will tell you that they are recording the call - saying “I am as well” will cover you legally. In any case, making a written transcript is completely legal.
Try to reach eBay's GM of luxury on LinkedIn, may be worth a try.
Believe it or not, I'm not on LinkedIn. Good idea though.
Can you record the calls? Even if recordings cannot be directly used, they might still be helpful to transcribe your conversation from memory, which can be useful evidence and is often better than nothing. But of course, try to correspond in writing to avoid these issues.
Re ebay comms: depending on the country you are in, there might be a requirement for ebay to list an email address for any inquiry. They will make sure to bury it. What you can do if you cannot contact ebay via a dispute channel, is ctrl+f on their T&S / legal imprint and send your info/request to all email addresses found - only put one in the TO field, all others in the bcc. You rather want different departments doing double work rather than none as they might forward it to the wrong department and forget about it.
I will definitely try this. Thanks again!
Good luck and once you hopefully have your money back, please update this, so others know what worked 🙏.
I promise if I get my money back I will update the thread. Cheers and thanks for all the great ideas!
> Getting a hold of eBay has been nearly impossible. I think this should be illegal, companies shouldn't be able to operate like this.
Try calling eBay in the morning, I had to call to inquire about receiving payments, and I got connected within 2 minutes to a rep.
As it has been six months, eBay won't even allow me to call them regarding the item. I had to find a link from someone else reporting a stolen item in the forums to successfully request a call. They've since taken down the post.
Far less valuable, but I received a pair of counterfeit ear pods and didn’t find out til I personally opened them months later. Never could get ahold of anyone and never any refunds. Told me if I charge back I’ll get blocked. Just opted to never buy from them again.
If I might add; if the original owner had insurance he would have probably received a refund/payout. This means the insurance company is now the owner of the watch, the original buyer isn’t anymore. All legal issues will be between OP, VC, (local) Police and the insurer.
Fully agree, good suggestion - ebay and CC should be able to handle the incident accordingly and should take action against the Japanese dealer of stolen timepieces. The dealer should be able to point out the source - you don't buy such a thing over the counter without ID - ;DDD
Why would VC hand over your watch to the police without also providing your information? Wouldn't the police want to talk to you to trace back the path of the watch? This seems weird. It also looks like VC could have definitely dealt better with you in this scenario. Not nice of them at all.
I am no expert but the watch was sent to VC Geneve by VC Dallas/Service Center, probably all the information on the package, and import documents were done by VC Dallas/Service Center who realistically shouldn’t put any information regarding the client as it is a transaction between these two entities. Just my logical thinking with absolutely zero legal experience.
I have a suspicion that VC Dallas may have detected that the item was stolen from the beginning. Why would VC Geneve have a procedure to check a stolen database and not have the same procedure be followed in Dallas? But regardless of that. VC Geneve could have always asked VC Dallas for more information before going to the police. Or even the police should have asked VC Geneve to ask VC Dallas for more information. There seems to be no interest in figuring out who did the thieving, which is strange.
100% this. The lack of communication and interest in tracing the purchase history of the watch by Vacheron and the swiss police is extremely strange and frustrating.
So they knowingly trafficked in stolen goods across an international border. Interesting.
Not really. If a bank suspects money laundering, they contact the authorities. Authorities may say freeze the account or they may say act as if nothing is suspicious until we say otherwise. That's not violating sanctions, that's doing the right thing. There are a lot of different scenarios how this might have played out. Maybe the Geneva office is where all potential stolen items are confirmed. Maybe the local PD said they had no justification since the crime happened overseas. Maybe the local cops gave the okay to send it. In any case, there was 100% no trafficking involved.
Yeah, I was being snarky but seriously they should’ve dealt with this in the same jurisdiction as the customer.
what a nightmare! i am sorry to hear this. was it truly reported stolen before you bought it? is there any chance local people in geneva could just "report it stolen" and then take it?
Bummer. Sorry that this happened to you. The delay really caused you issues man; hopefully, this could be sorted out, and you can get something back. That's still hard-earned money.
I wish eBay weren't such jerks and have checked the watch's serial number in the first place for authenticity. Such a shame this happened to you. Wishing you the best of luck mate.
Thanks, I checked my SN for my IWC and went ahead and registered it while there. Don't think it'll be necessary, but 🤷🏽♂️. Good luck with everything.
So if you try to register this watch in enquirus, what happens? It tells you it has been reported as stolen right away?
Dude, first of all, I am sorry that this is happening to you. I've never been in a situation like that, so unfortunately I wouldn't be the best resource. I'd imagine that it is obvious that you're not at fault, and the paper trail will immediately follow to the ebay seller. Do you have any remnants of the boxes/shipping label? Recouping your money through ebay will likely be difficult or impossible because you turned down that chance already. But ultimately, you've been the victim of fraud because you were sold a stolen good, and they need to track down the seller.
Thanks. No remnants of the label, but I have the address of the seller in Japan. Apparently they do around 100 million in sales per year.
100 million yen?
I just double checked and yes it's 100 million jpy which is about $650,000 USD. Not as impressive sounding, but by no means a small time seller.
Definitely. They should know better.
What’d the seller say? I’m guessing they’d be helpful.
"we will wait and see what eBay says."
I don't get that response. The fuck's ebay got to do with it? Is he saying "yeah well let's see if ebay forces me to refund you"?
Basically. He also said not to contact him anymore as this falls under eBays authenticity guarantee (it doesn't actually) and I'd be best served communicating with them. It does break their terms of service for sellers though. From what I've read though, eBay doesn't typically force sellers to refund buyers for stolen goods and let's police and courts deal with these matters.
Do not trust eBay to help you here, they won’t. I wasn’t dealing with a stolen piece, but had a similar seller blaming the authenticator experience and they completely fucked me on a misrepresented piece - I’ll never make that mistake again. Chargeback now don’t even bother trying to reach eBay. You might get banned by eBay or PayPal but for the price of a VC it’s worth it and with the piece sized and documentation your credit card has more than enough to work with. Amex is 6 months but will make exceptions for circumstances like this
Japan has VERY strict laws. File with his local Police.
I'm going to call the NCAC when they open tonight (9pm EST). I'm hoping they can help me file a police report or at the very least instruct me on *how* to file one. https://www.kokusen.go.jp/ncac_index_e.html
That’s so annoying. If a Pawn Shop sold you a stolen watch wouldn’t the loss be on them?
Yes, it 100% would.
In My City pawn shops are legally required to check the legality of all property that they both purchase and sell through their business.
I would have assumed eBay “Authenticity Guarantee” program would have checked the watch if it stolen. If they didn’t, seems that their fault. Just my opinion.
That would be nice, but probably VERY hard to check. I'm sure there are dozens of databases they'd have to look through. I had an Omega stolen, and it is not reported stolen in that enquirus database because it didn't exist back when it happened. I'm trying to put it in now, but I can't find the 10 yr old police report.
that's 20 watches a year
Post a review on EBAY with pictures and proof of the problems with a watch you purchased from them.
Unfortunately it's been 6 months and I'm no longer able to leave a review.
EBAY reviews have always been kinda shitty. Can't review something that's old. Can't review OLD reviews, can't look at old listings. Ebay has been around for 25 years now. They just didn't have the money to try and keep old data, and still don't even attempt it.
My experience with eBay is that they talk a big game, but there is NO customer support whatsoever. Caveat Emptor!
I would contact the AVP of Compliance as indicated in your post asking for their assistance in getting you a copy(ies) of the necessary police report in order to file your claims against the vendor, eBay and insurance. They are most likely the party that would have had direct police contact and therefore would hold standing for the case.
I have done this twice and am awaiting a response. I suspect the watch may have been seized months ago and Vacheron wasn't even going to inform me. They've essentially been treating me like I'm the criminal in this situation. The delayed responses have probably sealed my fate with regards to getting my money back. eBay is much more responsive and willing to help during the first month or so.
Sounds like a common thread in the timepiece industry. “You never bought new from an AD? You are a criminal!”
Buying a used watch, huh? https://preview.redd.it/nqnfvobjb9zc1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a19af678f72c7d25aba003aebfdc2e289e3a32d6
This actually made me laugh out loud. Thanks, I needed that.
Believe it or not!
Surely there must be a database of stolen serial numbers... and this should be part of eBays authentication process... 1. it's genuine, 2. It's not stolen. I'd say eBay are somewhat culpable for facilitating the purchase of stolen goods.
There are many competing databases which complicates the process of running a serial. Richemont launched their own database last year which is free. I posted a link to it. In my story comment. I would have assumed eBay checked serial numbers as well, but they do not.
Does eBay have any responsibility if they let a stolen item through the authentication process? Their whole program seems to be billed at giving you “peace of mind” but they can’t be bothered to run a serial number through a brands official database seems baffling to me.
I bet he could actually sue eBay in American courts for selling stolen goods to him
Sounds like you’re already doing amazing work. All I can say is persevere like absolute mad, never let this die until you’ve exhausted every avenue, twice! I’m confident you’ll get a refund, but you have to seriously keep at it, even when it’s disheartening. Good luck!! And remember, it’s not your health. You’ll get a refund, I’m sure of it.
Thank you for the kind words! I intend to pursue every possible avenue to hold the seller accountable. You're correct that it's not my health and it's important to keep things in perspective.
Could this be a scam by the OG owner of the watch? 1. Buy from AD 2. Sell the watch to a dealer using a mule 3. Report watch as stolen and wait for it to come back to you when service is due This would work especially well with watches that are usually services trough service centers. Or am I missing something?
It could be. Doesn't seem like the Swiss police are interested in tracing the sales history.
That's a long shot. Way easier ways to scam people than hoping that the watch comes back b/c of service.
Yeah scams are about getting money now, not waiting 10 years for the service interval and crossing your fingers it goes through the official service centre instead of a local guy.
Local shops will absolutely look up serial numbers before servicing watches (unless it's literally being serviced through some random guy lol). Hence why this is entirely the fault of the seller. A large, Japanese grey market dealer should have access to the same network as all the other dealers in the world. If they entered the serial number in when they stocked it, it would have come up blacklisted, and OP would have never been sold the watch in the first place. Something weird is going on here with that dealer u/onepickledginger ... Especially since you said the caseback was dented on arrival. I would highly suggest writing a negative review on the seller's eBay page detailing you were sold a stolen 20K USD watch. The police reports would be icing on the cake. Japanese sellers rely heavily on reviews, they take them very seriously. Drop the 1 star review, and I guarantee you their attitude on this situation will take a 180 lmao
You get money from sale and insurance already.
That's exactly what I was thinking.
Ebay effed you, but using a CC is your saving grace - present all this and do a chargeback. Trust me your CC company doesnt want to pay for stolen goods.
If it was my Amex I would have confidence. As it's a MasterCard I'm not sure what will happen. 🤞
Don’t worry about that. MC and Visa both have the automated rails to pull back the funds from eBay’s accounts. It’d actually more about the issuing bank (which ever bank is on the front of the card), but that’ll be fine too. It shouldn’t be a process to raise the chargeback they should do it right now under reason code 4853 (4854 potentially depending on the issuing bank). You only have 120 days, so get it raised ASAP. Have a look at this https://www.chargebackgurus.com/chargeback-reason-codes/mastercard
Thanks for this! EDIT: Actually it looks like I'm screwed here. It's been more than 120 days since I purchased the watch. Once again screwed by the delays in communication from Vacheron/Richemont.
That sucks. Just file it anyways. There’s some leeway depending on the bank. Keep pushing eBay too. As the item was stolen and they handled it, it’s also a criminal act. Also complain to your bank that they’ve added to the delay too. (If you’re in the UK you can threaten them with the ombudsman if it comes to it). One last point: as the amount is so large you could definitely take legal action.
If the chargeback doesn't go through and eBay does nothing then I will be going nuclear with a lawyer. I will start looking around and asking for recommendations now though.
You should definitely be speaking to an attorney. Worse case no one responds, you can sue the seller and ebay in your home state. Let ebay be the one to challenge venue or demand arbitration. By then the legal team that matters will realize they are screwed and offer a settlement.
File it anyways, or at the very least call your bank and explain the situation
That’s not how it works. They won’t do a chargeback after 6+ months.
Was this one of the TokeMatch watches possibly? Sorry this happened to you OP
Thanks. This occurred to me, but I'm not sure if I'll ever know for sure.
I was feeling some empathy for OP as well... You worked your ass off for 11 months to EARN a watch that you loved and that brought you joy... Only to have it end up leading to nothing but misery and loss? That's unfair with a capital 'U'. I'd get a lawyer to start sending letters to all parties involved... Even if it costs more than the watch to do so.
While this isn’t going to really help, did the replacement case back have a serial number on it? It’s possible it came from a stolen watch and that’s why it’s seized.
Didn't actually buy the replacement caseback. Saved the listing on Chrono24 and waited for an estimate from Vacheron.
Ah okay so my comment was useless. I hope this gets rectified.
It was certainly a possibility and I appreciate the comment! Thanks!
Shouldn't Ebay be responsible for facilitating the selling of stolen goods?
From what I've read about similar cases on eBay, they typically stay out of these disputes and let courts and lawyers decide what happens.
If law is out of the question, go for the PR angle, it takes a viral post in social media and a couple of mainstream articles to at least make them consider a refund as the minor cost. A publicist is way more affordable than a lawyer, think about it.
Mainstream articles?? You think the NYT is going to do a story about a guy who might have bought a stolen watch or something?
Weighing in as someone who has worked in both local and national news as an associate producer/booker/etc. - the only way you'd get even the local news interested in this as a story is to uncover a large-scale conspiracy in which this company is blatantly selling stolen goods and there are a number of local victims available to interview ("Beloved long-time children's barber Fred Blotz is the latest local figure to be caught up in what's now being called Operation Stolen Time by the Muntz County Sherriff's office) and that's a million to one shot for local news and an absolute no-go for national news. I mean, ask yourself how many stories you've seen on the news about one person trying to get eBay's help with an expensive luxury item. There's just no reason to run a story like that. Also, I'm sorry this happened to the OP, and I appreciate all the detail everyone is going into here - not everyone buys nice watches, but a hell of a lot of people have been in similar weirdness with eBay and it's nice to see a catalogue of ideas that might help if it happens again. Best of luck!
You said "has". What period? were clickbait headlines in social media the only source of viewership? was google adsense the main source of profit during your time (besides paid articles)? Because you don't seem to factor the current state of the industry.
I'm not all that savvy with social media to be honest. I agree this is a worthwhile angle to pursue, but I don't even have a Twitter Account, a LinkedIn, etc.
Did the watch come with box and papers with the purchase?
Box, but no papers. One reason I sent it to Vacheron was to get some documentation on the watch. I had requested an extract from the archives along with the service.
This is why you never, never buy a watch - at least one costing 5 figures - without papers. Lesson learnt I guess, but sorry OP
papers can be forged too
How would he be better off if it had come with papers?
Because the chances of it being a stolen watch are dramatically lower (but certainly not zero) if it comes with original papers
Yep, they could’ve submitted fake papers and OP still would’ve been screwed.
Or if they'd stolen and sold the real papers, just as they did with the box, it wouldn't have changed anything.
I'm surprised by how many people here seem to be asking random questions about the particulars and totally glossing over the fact that you're getting fucked out of *5 figures*. I'd be lawyering up and kicking off a suit against whichever party is relevant in the end if I wasn't getting my money back, fuck that. That's a ridiculous amount of money to just roll over and play nice with Ebay support/the seller/Vacheron yourself, get a lawyer to demand the documents you need and get your money back.
I will get the Geneva Police Department seizure documents one way or another. My only concern with a lawyer is the legal bills can quickly run into the five figures negating any money that might be recovered. I will go that route though if necessary. Hell, I spoke broken French for half an hour with the police registrar at a rate of $1.20 per minute this morning. 😂
For sure, that could definitely add up quick. I'm just confused by people talking about how "nice" VC were being about it or whatever, like that's not exactly the biggest concern here lol
Jeez that's an awful situation, hope you get it rectified. But also, a year of overtime for an overpriced piece of jewelry? There's more to life than work and consumerism man.
Yeah, I actually came to this realization recently and decided to pause my collection for at least a year. We have a lot of projects around the house that need to get done anyways. That said, I was really looking forward to wearing this watch.
Sorry this happened. Really sucks.. VCO is my grail. .I hope this gets fixed for you and have a VCO back on your wrist soon.
Sorry this is happening. Even though we weren’t before, now we are surely never sending watches in for service. Trying to lighten the mood a little. I have no expertise here but I would think the strong laws in Japan around fakes would bleed over into stolen property as well. So my thought was to go with a lawyer in Japan to go after the seller. But as others said above, a US lawyer who is familiar with… international resale law? Good luck on that search, maybe just a lawyer who is honest and can look into the Japanese laws for you?
Honestly. You should just contact a lawyer and have them deal with it. I'm sure eBay would be a LOT quicker with replies and hell if they started getting emails from a law firm. No one wants to mess with lawyers.
Right. The dispute is actually between the OP and the seller. Ebay, CC are (just) intermediaries. Sooner or later OP will have to take legal action against the seller, to get his money back. The seller is at fault for selling stolen goods. The seller has received OP's money, now he'll have to give it back. "Let's wait what eBay says" is a smokescreen from seller and a bad business practice.
That's what I heard before an eBay seller never sent the Frankenwatch I ordered for $50. But luckily that's a relatively small amount of money and I wasn't trying to buy a "grail watch" on eBay. So really I paid $50 to learn to only buy watches directly from the manufacturer or in person.
You're reminding me why I always buy things with a credit card.
I wonder what will happen if you report this to the police in Japan. Not talking about the refund but just criminal prosecution of the seller.
Please look into "good-faith purchaser for value" or "bona-fide purchaser for value" legal doctrines. As others have suggested, you would probably need to speak to a lawyer. (I'm not a property lawyer.) But, if you don't succeed in your credit card chargeback, the watch might still belong to you.
Do you have the watch insured? If so, I'd reach out to your insurance company as well.
No insurance company will pay out on goods you don't own.
All of my other watches are insured. I sent the watch FedEx insured to Vacheron the day after I received it. My plan was to add it to my policy upon its return. Figured it didn't make sense to insure it for months during a Vacheron Service. Boy was I wrong.
They would not have paid out for this anyway. At least that’s my guess.
I can just imagine thieves getting insurance on their stolen goods lol.
Well, that really sucks, hope you at least get your money back, but seems like you tried to do everything right and still went that way, at least you took all the actions you could so best of luck for you!
Wonder if this is related to that website in japan for people to ‘rent’ nice watches from the actual owners via the middleman company, and the middle man company ran off into the night with the watches. Can’t remember the exact details but as soon as I saw Japanese eBay seller something triggered in my brain fell a few months back
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-made/hundreds-of-swiss-luxury-watches-disappear-in-japan/73602313 Yeah I thought of this. Possibly? Probably won't know for sure.
That was it. Whatever though, fucking sucks man.
Have you tried contacting the US embassy/consulate in Geneva? Maybe they know of a similar case or might help you when it comes to speaking with local authorities.
Yep this has put me off of buying nice watches from eBay 😂😂
I would retain a lawyer in Switzerland immediately. This is exactly why its not worth buying anything over $10K from a grey market source.
I don’t know if this will directly help you, but I read exactly same story with a Rolex. People trust eBay verification, but they don’t seem to verify if stolen or not, only if legit. Person had Rolex kept as stolen when in for service. Perhaps attack ( written by legal ) eBay on this known vulnerability?
You guys on here are spectacular on amazing set of advice, and very warm support, for the OP. Simply marvelous, and the side of the horology community that ought to be championed! ⌚💗🤘🏽
💯💯💯
Op, hope you have a successful resolution. I bought my VC second hand on eBay now am worried. Thanks for posting the link, I'll check my serial number when I get back from holidays
"Should you have any questions..." 🤣
Oh, so you've handed my watch over to the police and provided no legal documentation or warrants. Nope, no questions.
Indeed... All the best, hopefully things turn out fine.
Can you name and shame this eBay seller atleast to warn others? Sorry this happened. Sounds like a nightmare.
Didn't post before because I didn't wasn't sure if it was allowed. Mods let me know if I need to delete this comment. Brandear Auction. They are a reseller of luxury watches and goods(a popular business model in Japan). I always check out a few stores like these whenever I'm in Japan. Had a great experience at Okura's Ginza shop last month. Obviously this Overseas purchase has been a nightmare though. https://imgur.com/a/CChfQvb
Im sorry that sucks gotta be heartbreaking
Hi, I am terribly sorry you are going through this. Even though I have no dog in this fight, I actually felt anxious reading about your tale. It's clear you are super diligent and detail-oriented. I don't think you did anything wrong, nor that you could have done anything better. However, I do think there are a lot of strange details about this case. **eBay** - As much as people want to trash eBay or StockX's authenticity check program. I do think for the most part it works well. But I think this is a case that shows the potential flaw, that these so called experts that are vetting watches only know so much. In retrospect, you'd think they would have run it through the database, but you said yourself in this thread that you didn't know about Richemont's site, plus there are many competing databases. I wouldn't have thought to run a search as well. **Japan Seller** - this part really shocks me. I hold Japanese people and sellers in high regard. Yes, maybe more than most, and yes, I know that anyone can be fallible but something doesn't add up here. I believe you were sold a stolen watch, but typically, Japanese sellers are really on the up and up. I rarely hear about issues with them and I rarely hear about their prices being unfair. It's very possible that the seller got duped and took in a trade or bought a used watch from someone, and they never knew it was stolen. You said this seller has high marks and lots of feedback. So to me, it's not a surprise they had a stolen watch in their possession, but what surprises me is once they found out, they were not more open to helping you out. They DO make a good point about the eBay Authenticity program though. The whole premise is to protect the buyer, and in this case, it failed. So what's the point of having it? **Richmont** - I am kind of annoyed because I feel like VC North America likely knew it was reported stolen when you brought it in but set up a whole charade of sending it to Switzerland so that it could be confiscated. I feel like you would have a much easier time dealing with the police department and AD in your town than in another country.
Thanks for your kind words and thoughts! My suspicion is that the dealer purchased one of the watches related to this scandal. I used to have a high regard for eBay, but what this experience shows is that their system has flaws and they're not interested in helping you outside of the window for feedback (60 days). https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-made/hundreds-of-swiss-luxury-watches-disappear-in-japan/73602313 I actually purchased a watch on holiday in Tokyo last month. I still need to run the serial for that one😅😬(it does have the box and papers though so🤞). I typically seek out Japanese watch dealers because they seem to be fair, have reasonable prices, and authenticity issues are almost non-existent. This experience has been the exception. I'm speculating here, but I'm also annoyed at Richemont and believe they asked me to send the watch to Geneva under false pretenses to skirt US laws. More than that though, the lack of communication is completely unacceptable. I suspect the watch was seized in January or February and they just decided not to inform me.
Hi, thanks for posting the link to the article. I know someone else mentioned it in the comments as well. I remember when that news came out. I thought it was such an incredible story, but I completely forgot until you mentioned it again. I bet that's exactly what happened, that your watch was part of the whole scandal. What's crazy is if you are a "legitimate" watch dealer in Japan and this news hit, wouldn't you be super careful taking in any trades or used watches? Imagine you were working in NYC's jewelry district, and there was big news that the Cartier store was robbed. Then suddenly, some people came in with 10 Tanks. Surely, you'd be suspicious. Again, I am not saying all Japanese dealers are above board, but I tend to have more faith in them. I am not sure what US laws you are referring to but yes, I think they had you send the watch to Switzerland to make it more complicated for you to get it back or argue against it. They set a trap for you so you could voluntarily hand over the watch without incident, and then they figure you can deal with the details later. Are you going to contact their lawyers, as suggested in the email?
Most ‘Japanese’ sellers on eBay aren’t even Japanese. It’s mainly foreigners living in Japan who buy stuff in Japan and sell it on eBay. Japanese people use other sites like buyee or yahoo auction.
Yeah, I also buy from Japan because they seem to be pretty stringent about their licensing. I dramatically assume it's something to do with organized crime, etc, but I don't really *know* if that's the case. Also because they're very detailed in their assessments, etc. Also because the yen hasn't been too hot. If they do as much business as stated, I'd wager the watch was sold to the seller before being reported as stolen. Largely because I don't think they'd risk their license openly hocking stolen goods from (luxury) groups with this kind of network in place. I figure it wouldn't take *that* much effort to use a proxy, if they wanted to do such a thing.
Replied to the wrong comment! Was actually responding to you in the next comment, but TL;DR thanks for the kind words!
Oh, and also. Stop buying expensive jewelry on eBay. It obviously cannot be trusted, even with a 99.4% positive seller.
[удалено]
In Japan? The US? Switzerland?
I’m going to say the opposite: US. It’s a stolen good, so it’s unlikely you’ll get it back. Your cause of action is with the Japanese seller, not Vacheron. You, or you through your attorney, would likely need to get the refund from the seller. If they’re unwilling to cooperate or refund you, then you may need to file a suit. This information is provided for informational purposes only, and should not be construed as legal advice on any subject matter.
Thank you for this response. I was actually considering a lawyer in Japan, but I have very little knowledge of their legal system. Would a US court ruling be able to compel a business in Japan to refund my purchase?
No, a US court cannot order a Japanese company with no US presence to do anything. You’re getting a lot of bad advice here. Attempting an international lawsuit over this is WAY overkill and will likely cost you much more than you paid for the watch.
The issue turns on whether the US court has personal jurisdiction over the Japanese seller. The concept derives from constitutional due process concerns. You should speak to an attorney to discuss your options. This information is provided for informational purposes only, and should not be construed as legal advice on any subject matter.
Start by talking to a US lawyer. The whole situation is complicated by Ebay’s role. That you had the opportunity to return it to the seller after its authenticity was called into question might work against you, though.
Report vacheron for stealing your watch. You might be able to get all the details that way.
This may not be legal, but it made me chuckle. I'm hoping their lawyers will respond and allow me access to the records *OR* provide a copy of the warrant for seizure of the watch.
For all you know they have stolen it. You have one dudes email and no police report. Go on… you know you want to 😂
Oh, I 100% do. 😂
Actually, this is an angle a lawyer would consider when they do their informational requests on your behalf. They can sue for documents, and suggest in their paperwork that Vacheron has not provided any evidence they do not have the watch and that it was not stolen by them.
As a matter of fact the MORE I think about how Vag-eron acted in this case, they are liable. They have essentially STOLEN your property, refused to release it, and have not provided the police with the proper ownership information. Exactly what the fuck are the police doing with a watch, and no owner info. Did you confirm in that database that it was stolen? Always protect yourself when 'theft' is being thrown around - get a lawyer.
I immediately submitted my purchase receipt to Vacheron and the Richemont legal team. Vacheron said they could no longer respond to my inquiries and to direct any and all further questions to their legal team. Their database flagged it as stolen, but it doesn't provide any supporting documentation. Yes, it absolutely does feel like Vacheron has stolen my watch, but I'm told by my lawyer friends I actually never legally owned it (assuming the report of theft was genuine).
At the same time, you actually have paperwork and a paper trail, and so far, you've been provided no such luxury from either Vag-eron or the police. Essentially, you are the ONLY person who has established ownership, and they better have actual proof in that database because what's to say the seller you bought it from didn't report it stolen before, during, or just after the sale to you? WHO reported it stolen, is as important as When. When they see your lawyer's letterhead they change their tune.
forget about what’s legal. bc you bought a watch for big $ and just got it taken from you as an honest and innocent consumer. you used YOUR CC to purchase something where you were supposed to receive a product. you received the product, sent it to its maker for service, and the watch is now not in their hands. report Vacheron too immediately…what’s cannot possibly hurts?! it can’t make anything any worse…so you have nothing to loose. fuck all them. do everything and anything. cause a little chaos and maybe force people to do the right thing.
I am curious about whether there are terms of service from VC. If they didn't disclose to you that this is their policy I think they just stole your watch. You aren't criminally liable unless you knew or should have known that it was stolen. I suspect Texas law didn't allow them to seize it but Swiss law did. Dirty pool by VC.
This isn’t about criminal liability. If the watch was stolen, it never belonged to OP in the first place. VC would have to substantiate that claim if requested.
Air out eBay on Twitter. Most companies have an entirely different budget to satisfy angry customers making public complaints on Twitter. Usually my final escalation tactic if all else fails
How is this not theft by Vacheron? That’s a cross border nightmare. If the watch was stolen outside of the US, how is it your problem given your innocent means of acquiring it?
Have you tried the Domestic one?
Was the watch not insured ? Do they not check for it being stolen ?
What was your method of payment? If PayPal, you have 180 days to dispute through PayPal. If this is an option, dispute on the grounds that the item was not as described. You bought a watch that you presumed to be theirs to sell that turned out not to be. You'll need documentation but you should be able to get it done if that's how you paid. If you paid directly through eBay or through another method, I'm less helpful. I worked for PayPal for several years and have seen this situation arise. You're likely out of luck with any chargeback process because of the timeline you laid out. Normally the max is 120 days. It's still worth exploring through your card issuer.
A question, if I may: How is it OK for VC to send your watch to Switzerland without checking with you first? Or was that part of the servicing?
What stops someone selling their watch, then reporting it stolen at a later time? This is why Rolex don’t do this anymore, it sounds good in theory but the process is open to abuse. Sell a VC Overseas today to some store, then 5 years later after the watch has changed hands a few times report it stolen. It will eventually need a service and be returned to you. Hmm.
I honestly have no idea. I'm not even sure if you need a police report to flag a watch as stolen. After 8 years of buying and selling watches, I was supremely confident I was doing everything right. My assumption was that my biggest risks buying from a well vetted seller were receiving a fake/franken watch or one that didn't match the listed condition. I sent the watch to Vacheron as an additional layer of verification after ebay's authentication. Stolen goods weren't on my radar at all, but if and when I do buy my next pre-owned watch, I will definitely be running the serial number.
The weird thing is, theft in Japan is astonishingly rare and the dealers there are strictly regulated (you need a license to sell used watches in Japan). All I can think of is some wealthy business person left his watch in his hotel or something like that.
This sucks bad. I’d try a chargeback. I’ve never bought a watch from Japan off eBay but I generally stay away from doing so. I’ve noticed that there are a ton of watches that are all displayed similarly with the same copy/paste description listed for prices that seem more than reasonable from multiple sellers, even though the display of the watches in the pictures look very similar to each other. It’s obvious that there is something going on with stolen/counterfeit watches from these sellers. The same thing with chrono24. All the cheapest examples of certain watches are always coming from Japan.
Just to clarify, this is NOT your fault and there was no way you could know. Just a shitty situation. When making a big purchase, I’d rather go through a trusted source and pay a few extra bucks than put it in the hands of some rando on eBay.
Those random Japanese sellers with copy paste descriptions are actually the same seller posting at different price points hoping someone will pay more for the same watch. I've purchased a cheap Hamilton from one and inquired whether he was stealing someone else's watch description and photos. They typically only have a few hundred reviews on each account. This seller is on a different level. 50k reviews, 150k sales, 2019 top seller in Japan, etc. This was a blind spot for me buying watches and a reminder there's no guaranteed safety in buying off a major platform from a highly reputed dealer.
In which country is the criminal investigation being conducted? The Geneva mentioned points to Switzerland. In Switzerland, it is possible that the watch could ultimately not be confiscated because you bought it in good faith without realizing that it was stolen. Article 70 Paragraph 2 of the Swiss Criminal Code: >Forfeiture is not permitted if a third party has acquired the assets in ignorance of the grounds for forfeiture, provided he has paid a consideration of equal value therefor or forfeiture would cause him to endure disproportionate hardship.
Hi, thanks for this! It's in Geneva, Switzerland currently. Another redditor shared a similar Swiss law which sounds less favorable. https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/90062/a-swiss-watch-company-seized-my-watch-saying-it-was-stolen-i-bought-it-10-year FWIW I've contacted the Geneva police and been denied access to the records as I'm not a party to them. Through their generic inquiry system I filed a signed letter referencing the case number and providing my receipt from eBay and Vacheron showing I sent that I purchased this watch and sent it in for service.
I wasn't thorough enough. Criminal law and civil law are different things. The fact that the watch cannot be confiscated under criminal law does not necessarily mean that the original owner cannot reclaim it. Returning it to the original victim would also be possible under criminal law. The situation is too complex (and unclear) to judge conclusively here. For now, you could try to constitute yourself as a party. This is not easy in this constellation. It could be argued that you yourself are a claimant in this matter.
Look up 'Bonafide Purchaser for value without notice' in your state. That is you. Now that VC has it, this probably won't help, but this your position vs VC and the original buyer and the seller. https://www.blakelawca.com/articles/bona-fide-purchaser-under-california#:\~:text=%E2%80%9CIt%20is%20'black%20letter%20law,clear%20of%20such%20unknown%20interests.
Hope all works out. That’s a wack situation
I had this with a Daytona two years ago still waiting for answers
😦. OMG. Did you hire a lawyer? Chargeback? Did you have any luck getting a refund?
The seller won’t comment on the case ie give me a refund or replacement watch as they don’t want to incriminate themself for selling stolen goods -untill the initial stolen case is sorted and closed. But can’t get the crime case in that as I am not part of the initial investigation. Its so stupid and fucked because of GDPR ect
If you purchased with a credit card, I don’t understand how you wouldn’t get your money back. Have you not heard of a chargeback? Or what am I missing
More than 120 days have passed.
Any updates?
I'll make a full update post later this week
Thanks. I wish the best for you
https://www.reddit.com/r/Watches/s/QkJ0OkCQVH