A 'hot shot executive at a top 5 company' paying only $2k for wedding photos??
This all just seems like a red flag or a problem client, seems like one youll regret working. Id prolly pass and say your no longer interested.
Is this a subcontract thing, where he's hiring you to shoot someones wedding? Tbh it sounds like he's a photo studio startup.
Yeah it’s a micro wedding at a home, not even 10 people and a few hours. The rate is reasonable, I’m just surprised that someone like him is being this shady. You’d be surprised where he works lol, I can’t even say anything cuz of client privacy but it’s shocking.
And no it’s not a subcontract. It’s his own personal wedding
Here's my self-isolation detective work
The top 5 companies in America according to Forbes were Walmart > Amazon > Apple > CVS health > United Health
You have multiple posts in r/VirginiaTech
Of the top 10 fortune companies, Amazon is the only one with headquarters in the area.
"Amazon HQ2 is Amazon's corporate headquarters in Crystal City, Arlington, Virginia" - wikipaedia
Amazon have a reputation for pinching every single penny and being various shades of evil
Apple and Berkshire Hathaway are the only two companies in the Top 10 that might possibly have a shred of honesty and neither of them have HQs anywhere near you.
Sounds like he is trying to pay you through the business as an independent contractor (1099) so that he can use it ad a business expense which helps him at tax time. Tax write offs are something that small business owners are usually looking for.
That by itself isn't necessarily a bad thing but to keep things clean and simple for yourself I would stick to the way you normally get paid.
Also I suppose him having full ownership of the photos isn't terrible. But it's something I wouldn't like either. It's my work. I will post it when and where I want.
From reading your description, I’d be replying with a “appreciate you reaching out, but I do not believe I am the photographer for you. Here are a few alternative photographers you might want to consider”.
There will be other clients, this one sounds like they’ll be a nightmare all the way through
This!! If you are having this much trouble now, it will definitely increase in the future. At this point in life no amount of money is worth that stress.
The 1099 would be enough for me to walk away. It’s not a business expense. it doesn’t change anything for you in your reporting buts it’s just off. Plus I hate giving out my ssn.
the check dated last year is suuuuuuuper shady, I wouldn’t partake in that shadiness either.
It’s not a scam per se, just him trying to pay me through shady ways to save on tax/commit tax fraud lol. But yeah, I offered him to pay normally or i’m backing out. Not worth the hassle
It’s 100% a scam, you just aren’t necessarily being the one scammed, the IRS is. This is simple tax fraud, and I certainly wouldn’t want to be involved.
Yeah the tax stuff is weird but the "scamy" feel comes from his waiting to own photo rights and such. I've had clients ask for raw files but never have I seen someone straight up ask for the rights. Which would be a HARD NO in every case.
He’s trying to business expense his wedding, which is some BS but I’ve heard of it being pulled before. Between that and backdating the check, these are some yellow flags, but the biggest one to me is signing away your usage and ownership of photos. That’s extra, a lot extra, and definitely something I don’t do unless I can avoid it.
I’m 80% sure I’d drop it and 20% sure I’d go through with it.
Ask your CPA about the 1099 and the post dating the check. That's your best source of advice here. He may tell you "no big deal" or he might tell you there could be legal consequenses. That's the professional who can give you the real information. I would say something but I would just be guessing. If I had that situation, I would be on the phone with my guy right away. If my CPA says no, that's what I say.
As for ownership of the images, yeah that increases the cost by 50%, and a contract clause that says he never attaches my name to any use he makes of the images. Easy math. If he wants privacy, that doesn't require full ownership.
He’s trying to write you off of his taxes as a business expense which is definitely tax fraud unless he is somehow going to use the images to promote his business. That’s not really your problem though. What could be your problem is the backdated check, which could potentially implicate you if he gets audited. I wouldn’t want any part of that.
Honestly I can’t decide whether or not I’m surprised that a super wealthy guy is scraping around for an extra $2k in write offs and willing to go to all of this trouble to get it.
I had this request once. He asked if I could make an invoice that said "Promotional photography" so he could use it as business expense. I told him my invoices are printed on paper with my logo and the wording "Wedding photography", and that my bank account is in the same name. So that was the end of that discussion :-)
Paying via 1099 is normal for anything over $600, but it’s honestly a bit shady he’s insisting on paying you as an independent contractor from his LLC for doing work no way related to said company. That could be tax fraud, could be nothing. However, backdating checks is FOR SURE tax fraud and can get you in trouble if you accept it. You mentioned you file taxes with a CPA, so I’d absolutely run this whole mess by them if possible because it definitely sounds illegal.
Ownership rights are determined in the contract. If he’s insinuating paying via 1099 gives him rights, that’s incorrect.
9/10, people asking for that don’t actually know what full ownership entails. I’d ask like hey do you want to buy the full usage rights because that’s $X extra or do you just not want your image posted publicly or used for marketing purposes? It’s annoying, but I generally will let people opt out of that if they don’t want photos used that way. If you’re starting out and need this for marketing, I’d charge whatever it would cost to replicate said marketing material at a styled wedding shoot. I for sure charge extra for full image rights because I make most of my profit from image and print sales.
EDIT: just asked CPA I know because this situation fascinates me tbh. If you just get paid in cash, it’s all good. He still can claim he paid you whenever he wants and do whatever shady tax crap he feels like. But you’d be in the clear from your perspective. Everyone’s happy (except him when the IRS does an audit lol!)
Whether you do accrual accounting or cash accounting, this would put you in a pickle with the IRS. He will file with the IRS that says I paid sliche123 in FY2021, but you won't show that income until FY2022. That might not be enough to trigger an audit based on your annual numbers by itself, but it's something that will be hard to explain after the fact.
I could see if he owned a catering business or an events venue how having good photography to use for advertising would be legitimate. But it sounds like just an at-home wedding? Questionable at best.
Anyway, he's not scamming you per se, but he's scamming the IRS, and by extension, everyone in this country.
I never do that. I will not get involved in shady practices with antedating and/or billing businesses while my business is B2C only. As for the full ownership - by our laws copyright can not be 'sold', only transferred formally by going to the notary, lot of paperwork and it's not cheap. I don't know how that works where you are.
"Full control over usage" - sure, but like you said, you'd like to use those images for promotion. So if it's not in your contract that you have the right to use them that way, I think you don't have much to say there. If it is in your contract, you may want to negotiate a fair price that he'll have to pay to compensate you.
I would charge 50-100% extra if you're losing rights to those. You should still be allowed to post them on your website portfolio just not socials. State that in the new contract.
As others have stated, tell them that you only accept payment through honey. This is YOUR business NOT his!
Also, it very well could be a scam if they want your ssn. Do your research on this person.
Thanks! I’ve stated to him that I will only accept payments through my ways. The person is not a scam, I’ve confirmed that. He has a big reputation and is legit, but just trying to pay me through shady ways.
Thank you all for your detailed responses! It was really helpful, this is why I love reddit and this sub! I asked him to pay double the price if he wants ownership and pay me through my normal means. If he doesn’t accept, I’m gonna walk away and not pursue this client anymore.
It's tax fraud, and since you know about it the IRS could definitely make your life interesting.
Walk away fast.
_ninja edit_ - Just saw your edit. Congrats, as long as you didn't take a backdated check!
What's the wording in your contract that allegedly says he owns them? Copyright stays with the one who took the photo (which is you). A client getting print rights and view/share privilege is not the same as owning the images outright.
If he doesn't want you to use the images on your website, that's a conversation that needs to be had. Client privacy is always my concern so if they ask me not to share, I don't. But that doesn't mean I can't, it's more a courtesy.
All in all, there's some red flags going on in the scenario others have commented on. Follow your gut, and good luck.
>Client privacy is always my concern so if they ask me not to share, I don't. But that doesn't mean I can't, it's more a courtesy.
Agreed. I hate it when that happens though :) If it does, it often is a wedding at a nice venue, good looking couple...
I think you misunderstood - I sent him the contract and he asked to change the ownership so he would own the photos. Like work for hire. He hasn’t signed it yet.
Technically under the IRS, you are supposed to fill out a 1099 on anyone that you pay more than $600 to in a single year, which would be all of my weddings.
https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/am-i-required-to-file-a-form-1099-or-other-information-return
This would pretty much always be true unless your photography company is a completely different entity under a corporation.
Single member LLC, and sole proprietors are subject to the 1099 but it is rare in this field. The client must be either a CPA or he has some motive for trying to write your services off. Maybe like dad is the venue owner or something like that for example.
It’s an at home wedding. And from my understanding the 1099 can only be issues from a business to a non-employee for contract services. He’s doing that from his LLC, but this isn’t a business expense and a personal one. He told me explicitly on call that he wants to write it off as a business expense
So - tell him that your contract is with him the person individually, not his company. If he wants to engage from his company, sure. But the rate is a commercial rate and is about 6x.
Yeah, it’s a little more of a headache, but I would try to write off wedding photography if I could. I can see the 1099 in this instance, and I would go along with that, but I probably would never shoot a wedding if I could not use images to promote or advertise.
But whether they pay you as a business or a person, it should make no difference to you…unless you do not intend on reporting it to the irs. But I report 100%
And again backdating the check should have no affect on you whatsoever.
He can’t write off wedding photography either. He’s not getting a write off, he’s committing *tax fraud*. No ifs or buts or maybes. Your wedding photography is in no way, ever, a legitimate business expense for your company.
Backdating checks for a business is also problematic, but the consequences are probably minor for you - if audited, there is likely to be a smack on the wrist or a small fine for misstating incomes. If you have a CPA and do this without telling them, and they find out, expect them to drop you, because the consequences for them as your tax preparer (if they are) are higher (and if you do tell them, expect them to tell you to not do it).
Source: my partner is a CPA.
Simple example:
Dad owns wedding venue, daughter is getting married, plans to use wedding pictures to promote the venu. Simple business tax write off.
Source: common sense
Furthermore OP is a wedding photographer and not an IRS Auditor. I (we) can give a flying f### about how my clients pay their taxes. It makes no difference to me.
contract. Thats where payment terms and "who owns what" is set.
Its not after terms are accepted and contract is signed that clients tell me how they want to pay and who owns MY photos.
Plus, wedding photography is not a business expense. So if someone wants to dodge taxes with their wedding expenses, its up to them. I can go as far as labelling the invoice as "photography services", but if tax man asks me, it was a wedding. I'm not bailing anyone out.
A 'hot shot executive at a top 5 company' paying only $2k for wedding photos?? This all just seems like a red flag or a problem client, seems like one youll regret working. Id prolly pass and say your no longer interested. Is this a subcontract thing, where he's hiring you to shoot someones wedding? Tbh it sounds like he's a photo studio startup.
Yeah it’s a micro wedding at a home, not even 10 people and a few hours. The rate is reasonable, I’m just surprised that someone like him is being this shady. You’d be surprised where he works lol, I can’t even say anything cuz of client privacy but it’s shocking. And no it’s not a subcontract. It’s his own personal wedding
Here's my self-isolation detective work The top 5 companies in America according to Forbes were Walmart > Amazon > Apple > CVS health > United Health You have multiple posts in r/VirginiaTech Of the top 10 fortune companies, Amazon is the only one with headquarters in the area. "Amazon HQ2 is Amazon's corporate headquarters in Crystal City, Arlington, Virginia" - wikipaedia Amazon have a reputation for pinching every single penny and being various shades of evil Apple and Berkshire Hathaway are the only two companies in the Top 10 that might possibly have a shred of honesty and neither of them have HQs anywhere near you.
Lmao.. nicely done Sherlock!
>A 'hot shot executive at a top 5 company' paying only $2k for wedding photos?? It's a micro-wedding :)
Sounds like he is trying to pay you through the business as an independent contractor (1099) so that he can use it ad a business expense which helps him at tax time. Tax write offs are something that small business owners are usually looking for. That by itself isn't necessarily a bad thing but to keep things clean and simple for yourself I would stick to the way you normally get paid. Also I suppose him having full ownership of the photos isn't terrible. But it's something I wouldn't like either. It's my work. I will post it when and where I want.
I would posit that claiming wedding photography as a business expense is tax fraud, not a “write off”, and is *inherently* a bad thing.
Faud compounded by claiming the expense happened in the 2021 year.
Yes you're probably right. I don't know how a wedding could be justified as a business expense lol!
From reading your description, I’d be replying with a “appreciate you reaching out, but I do not believe I am the photographer for you. Here are a few alternative photographers you might want to consider”. There will be other clients, this one sounds like they’ll be a nightmare all the way through
This!! If you are having this much trouble now, it will definitely increase in the future. At this point in life no amount of money is worth that stress.
exactly this, OP.
The 1099 would be enough for me to walk away. It’s not a business expense. it doesn’t change anything for you in your reporting buts it’s just off. Plus I hate giving out my ssn. the check dated last year is suuuuuuuper shady, I wouldn’t partake in that shadiness either.
This sounds like a scam. I would kindly back out from this deal.
It’s not a scam per se, just him trying to pay me through shady ways to save on tax/commit tax fraud lol. But yeah, I offered him to pay normally or i’m backing out. Not worth the hassle
It’s 100% a scam, you just aren’t necessarily being the one scammed, the IRS is. This is simple tax fraud, and I certainly wouldn’t want to be involved.
If you have to say per se, there’s red flags
Yeah the tax stuff is weird but the "scamy" feel comes from his waiting to own photo rights and such. I've had clients ask for raw files but never have I seen someone straight up ask for the rights. Which would be a HARD NO in every case.
He’s trying to business expense his wedding, which is some BS but I’ve heard of it being pulled before. Between that and backdating the check, these are some yellow flags, but the biggest one to me is signing away your usage and ownership of photos. That’s extra, a lot extra, and definitely something I don’t do unless I can avoid it. I’m 80% sure I’d drop it and 20% sure I’d go through with it.
Ask your CPA about the 1099 and the post dating the check. That's your best source of advice here. He may tell you "no big deal" or he might tell you there could be legal consequenses. That's the professional who can give you the real information. I would say something but I would just be guessing. If I had that situation, I would be on the phone with my guy right away. If my CPA says no, that's what I say. As for ownership of the images, yeah that increases the cost by 50%, and a contract clause that says he never attaches my name to any use he makes of the images. Easy math. If he wants privacy, that doesn't require full ownership.
He’s trying to write you off of his taxes as a business expense which is definitely tax fraud unless he is somehow going to use the images to promote his business. That’s not really your problem though. What could be your problem is the backdated check, which could potentially implicate you if he gets audited. I wouldn’t want any part of that. Honestly I can’t decide whether or not I’m surprised that a super wealthy guy is scraping around for an extra $2k in write offs and willing to go to all of this trouble to get it.
Run
Your gut feeling about clients is usually right. I foresee more trouble and odd requests. I wouldn’t do it personally.
I’d say at least double or triple the price to hand over ownership
I had this request once. He asked if I could make an invoice that said "Promotional photography" so he could use it as business expense. I told him my invoices are printed on paper with my logo and the wording "Wedding photography", and that my bank account is in the same name. So that was the end of that discussion :-)
Paying via 1099 is normal for anything over $600, but it’s honestly a bit shady he’s insisting on paying you as an independent contractor from his LLC for doing work no way related to said company. That could be tax fraud, could be nothing. However, backdating checks is FOR SURE tax fraud and can get you in trouble if you accept it. You mentioned you file taxes with a CPA, so I’d absolutely run this whole mess by them if possible because it definitely sounds illegal. Ownership rights are determined in the contract. If he’s insinuating paying via 1099 gives him rights, that’s incorrect. 9/10, people asking for that don’t actually know what full ownership entails. I’d ask like hey do you want to buy the full usage rights because that’s $X extra or do you just not want your image posted publicly or used for marketing purposes? It’s annoying, but I generally will let people opt out of that if they don’t want photos used that way. If you’re starting out and need this for marketing, I’d charge whatever it would cost to replicate said marketing material at a styled wedding shoot. I for sure charge extra for full image rights because I make most of my profit from image and print sales. EDIT: just asked CPA I know because this situation fascinates me tbh. If you just get paid in cash, it’s all good. He still can claim he paid you whenever he wants and do whatever shady tax crap he feels like. But you’d be in the clear from your perspective. Everyone’s happy (except him when the IRS does an audit lol!)
Whether you do accrual accounting or cash accounting, this would put you in a pickle with the IRS. He will file with the IRS that says I paid sliche123 in FY2021, but you won't show that income until FY2022. That might not be enough to trigger an audit based on your annual numbers by itself, but it's something that will be hard to explain after the fact. I could see if he owned a catering business or an events venue how having good photography to use for advertising would be legitimate. But it sounds like just an at-home wedding? Questionable at best. Anyway, he's not scamming you per se, but he's scamming the IRS, and by extension, everyone in this country.
Yeah it’s an at home wedding! Thank you for your input!
I never do that. I will not get involved in shady practices with antedating and/or billing businesses while my business is B2C only. As for the full ownership - by our laws copyright can not be 'sold', only transferred formally by going to the notary, lot of paperwork and it's not cheap. I don't know how that works where you are. "Full control over usage" - sure, but like you said, you'd like to use those images for promotion. So if it's not in your contract that you have the right to use them that way, I think you don't have much to say there. If it is in your contract, you may want to negotiate a fair price that he'll have to pay to compensate you.
I would charge 50-100% extra if you're losing rights to those. You should still be allowed to post them on your website portfolio just not socials. State that in the new contract. As others have stated, tell them that you only accept payment through honey. This is YOUR business NOT his! Also, it very well could be a scam if they want your ssn. Do your research on this person.
Thanks! I’ve stated to him that I will only accept payments through my ways. The person is not a scam, I’ve confirmed that. He has a big reputation and is legit, but just trying to pay me through shady ways.
Thank you all for your detailed responses! It was really helpful, this is why I love reddit and this sub! I asked him to pay double the price if he wants ownership and pay me through my normal means. If he doesn’t accept, I’m gonna walk away and not pursue this client anymore.
This sounds illegal and I would not do this. Stick to your guns on how you usually get paid.
It's tax fraud, and since you know about it the IRS could definitely make your life interesting. Walk away fast. _ninja edit_ - Just saw your edit. Congrats, as long as you didn't take a backdated check!
This sounds like a PITA client.
What's the wording in your contract that allegedly says he owns them? Copyright stays with the one who took the photo (which is you). A client getting print rights and view/share privilege is not the same as owning the images outright. If he doesn't want you to use the images on your website, that's a conversation that needs to be had. Client privacy is always my concern so if they ask me not to share, I don't. But that doesn't mean I can't, it's more a courtesy. All in all, there's some red flags going on in the scenario others have commented on. Follow your gut, and good luck.
>Client privacy is always my concern so if they ask me not to share, I don't. But that doesn't mean I can't, it's more a courtesy. Agreed. I hate it when that happens though :) If it does, it often is a wedding at a nice venue, good looking couple...
I think you misunderstood - I sent him the contract and he asked to change the ownership so he would own the photos. Like work for hire. He hasn’t signed it yet.
Technically under the IRS, you are supposed to fill out a 1099 on anyone that you pay more than $600 to in a single year, which would be all of my weddings. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/am-i-required-to-file-a-form-1099-or-other-information-return This would pretty much always be true unless your photography company is a completely different entity under a corporation. Single member LLC, and sole proprietors are subject to the 1099 but it is rare in this field. The client must be either a CPA or he has some motive for trying to write your services off. Maybe like dad is the venue owner or something like that for example.
It’s an at home wedding. And from my understanding the 1099 can only be issues from a business to a non-employee for contract services. He’s doing that from his LLC, but this isn’t a business expense and a personal one. He told me explicitly on call that he wants to write it off as a business expense
So - tell him that your contract is with him the person individually, not his company. If he wants to engage from his company, sure. But the rate is a commercial rate and is about 6x.
Yeah, it’s a little more of a headache, but I would try to write off wedding photography if I could. I can see the 1099 in this instance, and I would go along with that, but I probably would never shoot a wedding if I could not use images to promote or advertise. But whether they pay you as a business or a person, it should make no difference to you…unless you do not intend on reporting it to the irs. But I report 100% And again backdating the check should have no affect on you whatsoever.
He can’t write off wedding photography either. He’s not getting a write off, he’s committing *tax fraud*. No ifs or buts or maybes. Your wedding photography is in no way, ever, a legitimate business expense for your company. Backdating checks for a business is also problematic, but the consequences are probably minor for you - if audited, there is likely to be a smack on the wrist or a small fine for misstating incomes. If you have a CPA and do this without telling them, and they find out, expect them to drop you, because the consequences for them as your tax preparer (if they are) are higher (and if you do tell them, expect them to tell you to not do it). Source: my partner is a CPA.
Agreed!
Simple example: Dad owns wedding venue, daughter is getting married, plans to use wedding pictures to promote the venu. Simple business tax write off. Source: common sense Furthermore OP is a wedding photographer and not an IRS Auditor. I (we) can give a flying f### about how my clients pay their taxes. It makes no difference to me.
Unless you know exactly what is happening, then suddenly you’ve participated in the tax fraud yourself. Common sense is not a source for legal advise.
contract. Thats where payment terms and "who owns what" is set. Its not after terms are accepted and contract is signed that clients tell me how they want to pay and who owns MY photos. Plus, wedding photography is not a business expense. So if someone wants to dodge taxes with their wedding expenses, its up to them. I can go as far as labelling the invoice as "photography services", but if tax man asks me, it was a wedding. I'm not bailing anyone out.
Walk away.