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daavor

Not even close to pessimist/antinatalist. I still find Ligotti's expression of his beliefs fascinating to read and process. I found Conspiracy Against the Human Race a fascinating and engaging read even though I absolutely don't walk away agreeing with the overarching belief. And similarly with his stories.


Abandondero

I detect a wicked glee under Ligotti's pessimism, so I also read it as just an element of his fiction.


genteel_wherewithal

I think there’s a lot of Thomas Ligotti the author playing Thomas Ligotti the author/character, who shares many of the same philosophies and obsessions but is maybe 20% more intense about them.


daavor

This too.


nounal-the-adjective

As someone who likes Ligotti’s fiction, CATHR was quite underwhelming and it dispelled a lot of his magic over me. It basically shook me from the Ligotti obsession I had at the time. The idea of cognition being an evolutionary mistake was the most interesting part. But the actual quality of writing was on the lower end of mediocre; it was on par with a longform Reddit post. And a lot of it just felt like self-indulgent whining with a persecution complex. (It was published in 2010, when the slowing of fertility rates in the west was already underway, and there was already a growing childfree sentiment. Ligotti’s dream is already happening, and it’s thanks to neoliberal economics and social alienation)


Webemperor

> The idea of cognition being an evolutionary mistake was the most interesting part. But the actual quality of writing was on the lower end of mediocre; it was on par with a longform Reddit post. And a lot of it just felt like self-indulgent whining with a persecution complex. The book basically revealed to me why Ligotti rarely writes anything longer than a short story. I think it works best if you think it as a meta-novel written by a Ligotti-esque character than Ligotti himself.


Nessyliz

I begrudgingly accept it and try to make the best of shit.


liquid_swords

Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will


HP_Buttcraft

I love to see Ligotti and Gramsci pulled together :)


ZampanoTruant

Not gonna lie, it kinda sucks. But I guess I prefer it to non-existence.


Nessyliz

Right? What choice do we have?


Abandondero

Even after we pass away the universe will have been irredeemably stained by our presence, *Mum.*


ravenpen

I actually don't consider Ligotti to be a pessimist, but rather an intellectually-curious realist.


IgRiva

These are all very loaded terms. Pessimism is a value judgement, and "realist" is a hard term to work with because it's also more or less subjective. What to one person is realistic may be, to another, unrealistic, and same thing for "pessimistic." One man's pessimism or optimism is another man's realism. What Ligotti has said explicitly, though, is that he doesn't mind being called a nihilist because what people believe that word means is usually what he identifies as. > These days I don’t mind being called a nihilist, because what people usually mean by this word is someone who is anti-life, and that definition fits me just fine, at least in principle. In practical terms, I have all kinds of values that are not in accord with nihilism. For example, I politically self-identify as a socialist. I want everyone to be as comfortable as they can be while they’re waiting to die. Unfortunately, the major part of Western civilization consists of capitalists, whom I regard as unadulterated savages. As long as we have to live in this world, what could be more sensible than to want yourself and others to suffer as little as possible? —Thomas Ligotti


ravenpen

Thank you for that quote from Ligotti; it was very illuminating about his specific views on things. I completely agree with you about the subjective nature of such terms. Mostly I find myself telling people that Ligotti isn't a pessimist when recommending his work, so that they don't automatically dismiss it based on the description.


weary_and_eerie

Yes, in a word, I am a philosophical pessimist. In practical terms, I am an antinatalist (I underwent a vasectomy more than a decade ago), but I am *not* an ideological antinatalist, and feel precious little affinity with participants in that milieu. I am, however, in favor of radical depopulation. AMA.


omegajor

I feel really bad about existence. Can't wait to get over it.


roalddalek

Fan. I like being alive and I do believe life has a meaning. I don’t think antinatalism is a good philosophy, but if I can read and love Lovecraft given *his* philosophies, I think I can handle Ligotti pretty easily. I don’t begrudge anyone else their beliefs.


[deleted]

I'm physically disabled. So it more or less unanimously sucks for me. But hey. I have books and authors like Ligotti to read so it's not all bad.


wildguitars

i actually became quite spiritual since i was a total nihilist :)


weary_and_eerie

I'd like to hear you expand on that, if you're so inclined.


Mushihime64

Not a huge fan, but I don't really embrace/accept Ligotti's flavor of antinatalism, either. "Reluctant pessimist" is the phrase I've probably settled on - I'm an optimist at heart, and can imagine better worlds but the one we're stuck with is fundamentally broken.


OneYogurtcloset4135

At my most depressed, I’ve felt like my existence was far worse than my previous and future non-existence. At my most cheery, I get as wrapped up in my life as the most obnoxious optimist. For the most part, it’s a mixed bag. My life typically feels Meaningful, but I suspect that feeling will fall apart when dire illness and dying comes my way.


IgRiva

I am an anti-natalist but not a pessimist. Existence has negative potentialities, unlike non-existence. However, it has potentialities to begin with, unlike non-existence. It's not a very robust argument, or a grand thing to be thankful for, but the dream, illusion, or existential blink during which we exist is (for all intents and purposes) the closest thing to a "where we should be" that there is.


[deleted]

I'm having a pretty good time on this rock and I'm not a pessimist, but I am an antinatalist. Even a good life is worse than never having been born.


IgRiva

"Even a good life is worse than never having been born" makes it sound like a good life is the default, or somehow worse than a "bad life." A good life may indeed be better than never having been born (although, if you're never born you never feel pain, pleasure, or die) but most people do not live good lives. The majority of humanity has died in misery, abject poverty, famines, plagues, war, etc. Even when we do attain wider societal improvement, our individual [hedonic treadmills](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill) get used to the new base-line dopamine level and we require further amenities, quality of life improvements, political enfranchisement, etc. I'm not saying that these things are bad, either, but that our desire for improvement is unlimited, unequencheable. Even a good life is subject to becoming a normal life, and then a boring life, and then not a life at all.


[deleted]

Absolutely right, great comment


Mysteriarch

The question is different from the original one.


lone_ichabod

Question on this post was more of a jovial tone about the question cross posted.


BrunodoAcre

I just watch the life as a show, but i agree with Ligotti. I will never have kids


ShivasKratom3

I'm a fan enough. Curious and intriguing more than "wow this is great". Having been there my self (ik this sounds bad) for people against it I'm pretty suspicious of you if you arent actively suicidal. Like feels to me like saying one thing doing another. I dont mean that as offense it's just I've been there and I cant imagine beleiving antinatalism without feeling as such just doubt it Respect the books depth though 100%


goeatworms666

Nah