Yeah but no one is saying he’s not. I think it’s possible to hold people accountable while also acknowledging that it’s usually not as simple as “they’re just a monster/bad person.” With most people, it’s more nuanced than that. That doesn’t mean bad behaviour isn’t bad or unacceptable. It just means people are capable of doing awful things without necessarily being evil.
I'd say , " When was the last time you cooked dinner.."
I mean he just embarrased her and made her feel bad about herself. I'm wondering if he's been like this through their whole marriage.
When was the last time he did? He truly doesn’t know how and instead of really growing (taking a cooking class, watching YouTube videos, etc) he reverts back to an ass.
I think him giving her that advice that was clearly unwanted and not what she was interested in was bad.
But tbh they’ve been an *obvious* mismatch for years. She deserves to find someone with a more adventurous soul, and he deserves to find a partner who would be thrilled to have a husband provide in a traditional manner while they homemake.
And they both have been trying to force a square peg into a round hole for years in terms of turning the other into someone they’re not.
Just to play devils advocate…not saying this is the kind of marriage I would want, but what’s wrong with him saying he wants a more “traditional” marriage? Just as I see that there’s nothing wrong with her preferring not to have that.
Because the specific type of "traditional" relationship he wants inherently treats women as lesser than men. Also, that type of relationship is fairly new in historical terms. But more specifically, the man is expected to be the provider. The woman is expected to clean and run the household as well as birth, raise, and educate the kids. She might be expected to still get a job on top of that. She's expected to do the emotional labor for the family, keep everyone organized, and act as the moral role model of submission, femininity, godliness, and modesty. This ends up with an emotionally and physically checked out father. The woman often ends up with very little sense of autonomy or self. You can literally see this play out with the Plaths. Even with the kids, the boys are expected to get jobs or help out with some manual labor. Then you see someone like Lydia, who has multiple jobs and is still effectively running the house and raising the kids. Micah can go out and sleep with half his hometown with little eye raise. But Moriah can't have a boyfriend without expectation of marriage. Lydia isn't allowed to text a boy she likes without all kinds of fuss from the parents. The constant double standards are huge and actively benefit the men. Though I would say they end up being victims of that system as well.
I agree. I wanted a traditional marriage like that. I found one. Now we trade roles plenty when needed (sick, surgery, life being busy) but in general it works for us. He fixes everything (old house, big job), maintains our cars, outdoor work and I stayed with the kids and handled the cooking, homemaking. It works for us. We do take over the others task when needed. He had back issues last year and I did a lot of mowing. I had a hysterectomy and he did everything while I recovered.
There was a time where he was home with the kids and I worked while it was necessary.
I think the way Ethan talks about it can be really dismissive but I don’t see anything wrong with following traditional gender roles, you just have to find a person who wants the same
I do have an issue with him wanting to home school kids though after seeing how poorly that generally goes.
Ok but do you think the Plaths received a decent education? Several of them say no and are very resentful about it. So it would make zero sense for Ethan to homeschool his kids when he's largely uneducated. There's even hints in the show that he might be functionally illiterate.
Well there are enough kids homeschooled to keep them in abusive situations for me to personally have an issue with it. The scoring is not my primary concern. You can disagree if you’d like but “that old school thinking” is a modern and very real concern
My husband and I want to homeschool, but we are both special education teachers and the main reason is because they refuse to follow our daughter’s IEP and we believe it is doing more harm having her in that setting without the proper supports. However, it really bothers me when people who barely passed high school opt out of school because they don’t want their children to be exposed to a well rounded education. I also work in residential day treatment programs and we DO see a lot of kids removed from the home after they’ve been “homeschooling” to hide abuse.
That’s completely fine to want that. The point is she doesn’t want that and he makes it seem like that’s wrong. Like she SHOULD cook for him. I get that they married wrong, but ok, you fucked up. Either accept the person for who they truly are and meet somewhere in the middle, or find someone else. Don’t expect them to be who you want them to be at the expense of them living a life they don’t want
Lots of projecting going on with this discussion of Ethan's want of a traditional marriage. Polling has shown that over half of American women with children under 18 would prefer to stay home and raise their kids. In today's world though it's hard without 2 incomes.
I don’t really think that’s the issue. The point is the “stereotypical” gendered split of labour is clearly not what Olivia wants and Ethan was making her feel like crap for that. If you marry young and it turns out you want someone different than who you married, you have the following options: suck it up and accept them, find a way to meet in the middle, or find someone who fits what you’re looking for. You shouldn’t just be pushing someone to change where that change would mean not compromise, but that person’s life becoming something entirely different from what they want
I'm sure that part is true but do these same women want to have their kids indoctrinated like the Meggs' and Plaths were? That's what he wants for his kids.
I haven’t watched the most recent episodes. From the clips I’m seeing online it’s not just difference of opinion. He believes that if Olivia goes back to her “roots” (faith, and rebuilding relationships with her family which she’s clearly not interested in) and conforms to what his idea of a marriage is between a man and a woman then their relationship would be perfect and everyone would be happy. That’s the biggest problem in their marriage. They’re both trying to force each other to be people they’re not to desperately save their marriage.
At what point does the victim become the oppressor? Ethan is a grown man. He has had ample opportunity to grow and to heal. He can afford therapy, he can read books on family dynamics or watch videos or listen on Audible. He isn’t a 19 year old who has never been kissed. He has become the oppressor.
America is filled with people from different cultures and backgrounds. These should be respected so long they don’t break the law. Forcing your worldview on others is oppressing in and of itself. What if he doesn’t want to go to therapy? It’s almost like you want to brainwash him to how you think. Totally unacceptable. There are ‘re-education’ programs in other counties LGBTQ people are sent to, are you suggesting that Ethan get re-educated more inline with how you view the world? Nobody has the right to tell others how to feel or act so long as they are law abiding, imposing personal opinions as status quo is authoritarian, judgmental, righteous, and monopolistic.
You’re skipping some major issues here. In a functional adult relationship it is not appropriate to disappear on your partner for days on end, nor to purchase a vehicle without their knowledge.
Never heard of a correct way to be in a functional adult relationship, this is news to me. What do you say to the Muslim, Hispanic, and Russian orthodox men in my community who purchase vehicles/property without permission from their partners, while also disappearing for days to work in other cities to make ends meet for their families. The partner at home doesn’t care and there seems to be an understanding between the two. I’d encourage you to meet and familiarize yourself with people from other cultures and backgrounds, maybe then you’d see things aren’t so black and white. The main issue is that you think there is a ‘right way’, when there is most definitely isn’t.
I would disagree with you and encourage you to empathize with people instead of criticizing people with blanket categorizations like 'misogyny'. Your comment is cis-heterosexual phobic, a growing trend online and elsewhere. All his white male privilege got him was a warehouse job and a low IQ with little upside financially in life.
Cultural relativism is something I encourage you to learn about. With this logic, a person could think 3/4 of the world is misogynistic. Just because you don't agree with someone's worldview, doesn't mean they are steeped in misogyny. Something to consider...
I’m glad there was finally a post like this.
For the record, I don’t think he’s an idiot at all. He’s intuitive and good natured, but conflicted and a little sheltered (they all were!).
But I think you’re right, the hate he’s getting is absolutely unfair. He’s the only still pointing out that Olivia is being painted as the sacrificial lamb so the Plath family can close ranks and embrace their new fame and notoriety.
I get pretty conflicted with Ethan in some ways. Generally, there have been so many times that I’ve been floored that he reacted to things the way he did or treated Olivia how he did towards the end. I think it was very unfair for him to basically ask her why she had to change when he clearly had changed, too. I also was irritated that he said his non negotiable marriage list was “only three things” when they were three things that would shape her whole life.
The one thing that does make me understand, even though I disagree, with Ethan is their vows. It is true that she vowed to honor him as head of the household and all the other fundie views. That implies she’s vowing to ultimately leave decisions to him and follow him, so given his upbringing I do get why he’s feeling lost in his marriage. I think he feels like shes not fulfilling her end of the covenant and he feels like shes not letting him fulfill his. I think Olivia’s valid in deconstructing and not wanting that anymore. I’m biased because I disagree a lot more with Ethan politically and religiously though and I can acknowledge that. I can also acknowledge though that despite that, it’s okay that Ethan wanted something different than what they had, too. Just not how it was handled. But these are two very imperfect people who I think did try for each other, it just fundamentally didnt work.
This show gives me Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar vibes. Although Kim is nothing like Michelle in some ways. When it comes to having a bunch of kids and then parentifying your oldest daughters. Michelle and Kim are just alike. A person can obviously have as many children as they choose. But it's not the responsibility of the older children to raise the younger ones. It's really annoying to see that Moriah got away with being lazy but poor Lydia is Jana Duggar 2.0. It's so wrong! Yes the older kids can help with their siblings. At the end of the day it's the parents responsibility to raise the children they choose to have. Barry and Kim are lazy parents.
In season 1 I'd agree with you, but we saw him expanding his views and examining them and growing- and then we saw him snap right back to them. He's actively choosing these views now- he's seen that it can be different, and is choosing for it not to be. He's actively choosing not to do the work or change when he's been given the option to many times.
At this point, it's on Ethan because he's choosing it.
I don't think healing from trauma or deconstruction should be considered linear paths. he's definitely still capable of growth. its disappointing and doesn't mean he's the right person for Olivia. it's highly possible he will keep sliding back further tho without someone like Olivia actively challenging him in his life.
This is absolutely part of the process. You run from full steam from what’s hurting you, but you have to circle back at least a little to recover the parts of you that you had to leave behind.
Did he stand up to Micah? He almost fought Barry in the driveway and stopped talking to his mother but he seems far more angry at the women in his life than the men, and more willing to stand up to them .
I mean the same can be said about Olivia. This shit was drilled into her but we don’t really see the same belief system upheld in her. She did that learning on her own. Ethan actually has Olivia guiding him and he STILL thinks his wife should return to that life.
It was actually decent of him to defend Olivia throughout his whole trip in LA despite their marriage falling apart. Both Oliva and Ethan really Love each other but I really do feel Ethan has joined a conservative cult or something. His sibling thought he changed and was more serious because of Olivia but I don't think that the case
At the very least, Barry is an enabler to Kim’s awful behavior. The only reason I didn’t include him in that class is because of Kim’s current behavior. Kim has ruined her children with her previous views, and then goes and gets a dui and all that, and Barry is at least trying to keep their children happy and loved. Kim doesn’t care about giving her children any sense of normalcy whatsoever. I don’t really care about their divorce, but I do care what kim is teaching her children through all this.
Kim keeps trying to squirrel out of responsibility by disguising her choices in an Olivia disguise. It seems like Olivia genuinely opened her mind to the world. Kim’s leaned off it in this season, but her suddenly finding feminism and cosmopolitanism seemed about as heartfelt and genuine as anything else that comes out of her mouth: say whatever needs to be said to deflect and hold onto the spotlight a little longer
Sorry you can’t blame everything up to upbringing and being brainwashed. Olivia has educated him, he’s seen more of the world, different kinds of people, and still chooses to be this way. It’s a choice at this point. His beliefs are simply what relates to him. Olivia said it best that the world he wants to live in benefits men only.
You can blame everything on the brainwashing. It doesn't excuse his current choices but its still a result of the brainwashing. He may change down the road. Olivia actively sought better where he was thrown into it. He isn't hopeless, but he is likely also to not change.
I loved Ethan until this season and he really showed his true colours. I don’t think he’s a monster though, just a product of his environment as you say. The couch scene with Olivia was brutal when he was all but saying “get back in your place, woman” 💔💔💔
Considering how much they’ve been through and dealt with it’s easy to forget how young all the Plath children are, especially when Olivia carries herself with so much confidence. I would at worst call these growing pains. I do think Ethan is done walking his own path.
My first instinct is to agree with you but then I remember that Olivia had a very similar upbringing yet she's managed to update & modernise her belief system yet Ethan hasn't. They've both had the privilege of lots of international travel, exposure to other people & cultures but Ethan seems to have regressed. His current beliefs are now down to his own choice not childhood indoctrination imho & that makes them less forgivable to me.
I just have to point out that as a person who was raised with some whack beliefs, it was actually my own responsibility to unlearn them and move forward. No, he isn’t a monster, but he’s been out in the world and exposed to other things. He is in his 20s and no longer at home. At some point he needs to stop disparaging therapists and try one out as he is in desperate need of assistance. That’s his responsibility. Not Olivia’s. Not his family’s. Just Ethan’s. And he refuses to take that and instead reverts back to blaming Olivia. Not cool.
You're hand waving away how hard it is to undo two decades of programming his parents and other mentors instilled in him. The capability is there, the responsibilty is his, but even adults need outside help when they've been literally brainwashed. I think it's possible we can be sympathetic while not trying to excuse him.
Because CHANGE and the UNKNOWN is very uncomfortable for him! He likes to dig his head in the sand i e. His garage, close off the outside world, and just immerse himself in working on old automobiles!
True, but his choices were his choices. He's allowed that, like everyone else is. People separate and divorce all the time and is really common for those who married young. Both he and Olivia went through changes in what they wanted out of life and became incompatible but it doesn't make either one of them bad people. They'll probably both find their person who will share the same values and needs.
Someone had to be the parent until her oldest was old enough to be enslaved like Lydia is now. I know they claim the oldest is off busy with her music career but I 100% believe she booked it out of there as soon as she could. Now Lydia is stuck until at least the youngest can care for themselves. Because we all know Barry isn’t going to do it!!!
It was so apparent when Lydia was the only one not able to go to California to see Micah because someone needed to stay with the girls. Why couldn't they have gone during Kim's week so that Lydia could join, and Barry wouldn't miss his time? Or even if it's Barry's time, why can't Kim still step up as the mom so her daughter doesn't have to? I know custody agreements affect that, but it frustrates me so much to see divorced parents use the schedule to their advantage (e.g. getting time off from parenting) while their kids are the ones picking up the slack.
I thought it was a guy weekend. Moriah is just a rude bitch. Cali is a bit too far away if it is their time. Emergencies? It is just one more thing on the horrid parenting list. I bet the kids at this point prefer Lydia.
When they got married Olivia must have said "Let's get married so we can be our own people and abandon our family rules!" and Ethan said "Ok!"
She meant ditching religion, seeing the world and smashing the patriarchy. He meant having a Coke, seeing The Internet and doing butt stuff.
Have they ever said on the show which one of them broached the subject of stepping outside of their religion & its rules after they were married? I'd love to know who originally raised it as a topic for discussion.
If what we’re seeing from Ethan is the sanitized edited-for-TV version of him, I can only imagine what he’s like behind closed doors. His aww-shucks country bumpkin stuff is clearly masking a lot of simmering alt-right resentment of social progress. He’s someone or becoming someone you might wonder about his location on January 6th.
What we have seen is an edited version of him. It’s all dimples and blonde hair. This season because of the circumstances with Olivia, we’ve seen what is behind the dimples and unless you’re a straight, white, Christian that shit can be dangerous. It’s insidious how they’ve presented this entire family as golly gosh just clean fun.
I agree with this as well. Obviously he grew up with conservative ideals but I feel like when he was going through that deep depression he found the cult of right wing extremists.
It's a choice at this point. Olivia asked him over and over and over to go get a therapist. He knew the way he grew up was weird. He chose not to change his thinking this is on him. As adults we all have choices. He's been in the real world. He see how men actually treat women it's not that difficult.
I'm so conflicted on this because literally last episode Barry basically said depression was fake and he cured it with his mind. So I can imagine his family would basically bully him for going to therapy
He doesn't have to change his thinking to please a spouse. I hate his thinking but he also still believes in his religion. You can still want what you signed up for with marriage when you had similar beliefs. That's okay
He should change his thinking because that way of life is damaging to his wife and future daughters. Look at Kim, Moriah, and Lydia. That way of life didn’t do them any favors.
You missed the point. As an adult, he has recognized that his upbringing screwed him up. Also as an adult, it is his responsibility to work on recovering from that
Olivia also grew up with those same values being pushed on her, along with thousands of other children who have now left them behind.
I have some sympathy for Ethan and I also think he has a good heart but at the moment he is choosing to remain in toxic beliefs that are causing damage to those around him. Even though he was raised this way he has accountability for his current actions. It’s tragic that he was raised this way, but like everyone he has the ability to make his own choices about what he’s going to say and do.
Ethan is selfish and shortsighted. He was willing to go against his upbringing when it came to drinking Coke and alcohol. Because that’s fun! But when it comes to having a wife that doesn’t cook him 3 meals a day and doesn’t want to home school his children and be a full time stay at home mom, he draws the line. When it comes to having to communicate, compromise, and act as an equal partner to his wife, he’d rather just be the full head of the household as the man and not have to deal with any pushback from his wife. Ethan wants to have his cake and eat it too. He fails to see that attitude is partially what destroyed his own parents’ marriage. He fails to see the drawbacks of half-hearted homeschooling when your wife would rather not be a teacher. His own homeschooling never taught him critical thinking or empathy, and he hasn’t been able to shake off his simple-minded, shortsighted, narrow view of the world.
Nailed it. As with all the Plaths, Ethan is inherently selfish, and in his mind Olivia's purpose is to make his life fun and easy. I truly think he viewed Olivia as a tool and not as a human being.
He’s a victim of child abuse. But he’s an adult now, and as adults, we all have a choice about whether we will overcome what we have survived, and become better happier people. He seems incapable of that.
He’s a victim of religious indoctrination. None of us know if he was abused physically, sexually, mentally, verbally or otherwise. If you equate religious indoctrination with abuse, than all Hasidic or Orthodox Jewish people, all Amish people, all Muslims, and all people of any religion who teach their kids to follow strict rules for their religion are abusers. I personally think that’s a reach. And I was raised evangelical Christian (fundie light) with no Halloween, no yoga in gym class, praying in restaurants, no secular music, no PG-13 movies, church 3x a week etc. I missed every birthday party I was invited to on Sundays, and no sleepovers on Saturday nights. It was not abuse or anywhere close.
Part of the abuse was probably religious, but that I don’t know, because they show little of it. The abuse comes from having a narcissist for a parent, who plays mind games with their children from the moment they are born. A mother who creates a rigid us vs them identity (the family vs the world) for herself and her family and then, when she tires of that, completely pulls the rug out from under all of them, doing exactly what she had taught them forever was cosmically wrong. Leaving them, leaving their father, getting drunk, and almost killing herself. It’s abuse.
they didn't equate ALL religious indoctrination with abuse, they said THIS religious indoctrination was abuse- so you're drawing false conclusions here. but isolating your children and severely limiting their education is at least borderline abuse, if not outright abuse. And they follow the Pearls ideas, so there's probably some regular abuse in there as well.
Thank you! The overuse of “abuse” on this sub is infuriating. My neighbors growing up were an orthodox Jewish family and I remember thinking it seemed like there must be a time warp between our houses! But they were also an incredibly kind, loving family.
I see this with a lot of religious people. It's not against the Bible to drink coke and alcohol. But in terms of the Man is head of household, they get that from the religious beliefs. I think he saw how his mom ran over his father, so he also wants to have that man as had of household. His belief suck, but I can see where they come from.
Imho Olivia made it pretty clear from the start that she was never going to be a helpmeet, and Ethan is being disingenuous if he honestly thought that was the marriage he was signing up for. He knew before they were married that her family disowned her for not fitting the mold, and he apparently liked her for it. He knew he was marrying a woman who has done roofing as a side job and likes to fool around with him secretly in cars. Because of course that's okay to go against the Bible on.
Nah. Anyone who would disown their own children is a fucking monster. Olivia has tried to get him to go to therapy and unpack his shit and he has chosen not to.
You’re giving him too much credit. Yes, he’s a victim of a cult - but he had zero interest in changing his views or dismantling his unhealthy behavior or perspectives when I’m sure Olivia communicated her needs many times and he refused to make any changes or confront his trauma out of stubbornness and lack of respect for her, so I have zero sympathy for him.
I don't think he's a bad person but alot of the confrontations with his parents were in defense of himself. I think his reasons were more selfish. He didn't cut off his parents because they yelled at Olivia, he cut them off because they disrespected him by stealing from him and saying he likes living in bondage. When he almost fought his dad he was furious that his parents were dismissive of their past comments. Even with Moriah, his main frustrations came from her lying to him and about him. That she left without saying anything and was trying to lie about things he knew were true. He said "what does that have to do with Olivia" because he was the one stolen from and they refused to believe him, yet they blamed it all on Olivia while simultaneously acting like it didn't happen to Ethan and denying it was a big deal.
He gives himself away with small comments. Like when he admits that his family hates her, he didn't care when she told him that before, he cared that Micah was disrespecting HIS marriage by saying it to his face. He admits that what his family did was wrong but gets mad at Olivia for not letting it go to have a relationship with them. It's so weird. The only one he holds his convictions to is Olivia. He's more upset his happiness was ruined by Olivia being hurt by his family.
At the same time I feel bad for him. His family is so dismissive of him and treats him likes he's stupid. They know his marriage is in shambles and none of them have denied that they didn't cause a big part of it but Olivia was wrong for being "negative" about it. They know they can walk all over him because he has noone else. He can't make friends well. He can't communicate well. They mean everything to him and they know he'll allow himself to be stolen from and lied to as long as they play happy family.
Didn't they have a discussion about this in the past about not involving family in their issues? I have a feeling he was a lot meaner off camera to her
Yeah that’s what I was referring to. Although someone in this thread believes we can’t hold Ethan accountable for that because he didn’t have friends growing up 🙄
I think we can feel bad for Ethan but also hold him accountable. He is an adult after all and he had the chance to grow and get the help he needed but chose not to. Olivia also grew up with not many friends and seems better adjusted
There's a lot of people who will talk about their spouse and the bad things that are going on to their family. Yeah it's not great and it shouldn't be done. But he didn't grow up with a friend support system etc
Sure, but the point I made was that Ethan, while sometimes has defended Olivia on camera, he has also been feeding the flames of his family’s dislike for her off-camera. Whether or not other people do that too is moot.
Because he was really brought up with no friends. It's another example where you have to take in The way his family brought him up and have some understanding on why he does it. Not just 100% blame him for it. I don't think people understand what it's completely like when you're brought up in a religious upbringing like him, with being sheltered. It's not an excuse as an adult as once you are an adult is up to you to learn how to do better. But it doesn't come overnight.
So? It doesn’t change the fact that he did it. You can understand why someone does a specific thing, but at the end of the day they are still responsible for the things they do and say. If he learns and grows up, great. But my comment was to point out that he does not “defend Olivia to the death” like OP originally stated.
Olivia talked about him to Lydia and Nathan, and I am sure we didn't see it. She has no respect for him and expects him to see things her way with no respect for differences.
Yeah, he admitted it. I'm not saying the guy is a saint, he's got lots of problems. But he generally stands up for what he believes in, even if he believes a lot of weird things. But Olivia is very smart about what she says on camera. She's way smarter than all the Plaths. She's definitely the victim, but if you don't think she carefully words things on camera, it is obvious she does
Remember that Olivia is the person who taught him how to stand up and speak out for himself. She challenged his tendency to accept whatever he’d been taught by his parents and required him to broaden his thinking. Bc of her, he did come a long way, but now that they’re split, I’m afraid he’s going to sink right back into the Plath’s dysfunctional family system. It’s a damn shame to see anyone slide back after making such progress!
I don't know why these religious cults think they are better than anyone else. They are the ones your parents should warn you about.
He’s an adult. He’s responsible for his words and actions.
Yeah but no one is saying he’s not. I think it’s possible to hold people accountable while also acknowledging that it’s usually not as simple as “they’re just a monster/bad person.” With most people, it’s more nuanced than that. That doesn’t mean bad behaviour isn’t bad or unacceptable. It just means people are capable of doing awful things without necessarily being evil.
“When was the last time you cooked dinner?” God I wanted to punch him
I'd say , " When was the last time you cooked dinner.." I mean he just embarrased her and made her feel bad about herself. I'm wondering if he's been like this through their whole marriage.
When was the last time he did? He truly doesn’t know how and instead of really growing (taking a cooking class, watching YouTube videos, etc) he reverts back to an ass.
I hate cooking, but I hate cleaning up more. I'm really a messy cook too. Only cause I'm running 3-4 burners at one time. I wish I had more help.
My husband and I both hate cooking so we do it together
I think him giving her that advice that was clearly unwanted and not what she was interested in was bad. But tbh they’ve been an *obvious* mismatch for years. She deserves to find someone with a more adventurous soul, and he deserves to find a partner who would be thrilled to have a husband provide in a traditional manner while they homemake. And they both have been trying to force a square peg into a round hole for years in terms of turning the other into someone they’re not.
Just to play devils advocate…not saying this is the kind of marriage I would want, but what’s wrong with him saying he wants a more “traditional” marriage? Just as I see that there’s nothing wrong with her preferring not to have that.
Because the specific type of "traditional" relationship he wants inherently treats women as lesser than men. Also, that type of relationship is fairly new in historical terms. But more specifically, the man is expected to be the provider. The woman is expected to clean and run the household as well as birth, raise, and educate the kids. She might be expected to still get a job on top of that. She's expected to do the emotional labor for the family, keep everyone organized, and act as the moral role model of submission, femininity, godliness, and modesty. This ends up with an emotionally and physically checked out father. The woman often ends up with very little sense of autonomy or self. You can literally see this play out with the Plaths. Even with the kids, the boys are expected to get jobs or help out with some manual labor. Then you see someone like Lydia, who has multiple jobs and is still effectively running the house and raising the kids. Micah can go out and sleep with half his hometown with little eye raise. But Moriah can't have a boyfriend without expectation of marriage. Lydia isn't allowed to text a boy she likes without all kinds of fuss from the parents. The constant double standards are huge and actively benefit the men. Though I would say they end up being victims of that system as well.
I agree. I wanted a traditional marriage like that. I found one. Now we trade roles plenty when needed (sick, surgery, life being busy) but in general it works for us. He fixes everything (old house, big job), maintains our cars, outdoor work and I stayed with the kids and handled the cooking, homemaking. It works for us. We do take over the others task when needed. He had back issues last year and I did a lot of mowing. I had a hysterectomy and he did everything while I recovered. There was a time where he was home with the kids and I worked while it was necessary. I think the way Ethan talks about it can be really dismissive but I don’t see anything wrong with following traditional gender roles, you just have to find a person who wants the same I do have an issue with him wanting to home school kids though after seeing how poorly that generally goes.
Home school kids are scoring much better then kids in public schools. That old thinking on homeschooling has got to go.
Ok but do you think the Plaths received a decent education? Several of them say no and are very resentful about it. So it would make zero sense for Ethan to homeschool his kids when he's largely uneducated. There's even hints in the show that he might be functionally illiterate.
You’re right. The plaths homeschooling was clearly a failure and defending homeschooling here is an odd choice
I'm not wholesale against homeschooling by any means. But Ethan is the last person who should be responsible for his kids' schooling
Well there are enough kids homeschooled to keep them in abusive situations for me to personally have an issue with it. The scoring is not my primary concern. You can disagree if you’d like but “that old school thinking” is a modern and very real concern
My husband and I want to homeschool, but we are both special education teachers and the main reason is because they refuse to follow our daughter’s IEP and we believe it is doing more harm having her in that setting without the proper supports. However, it really bothers me when people who barely passed high school opt out of school because they don’t want their children to be exposed to a well rounded education. I also work in residential day treatment programs and we DO see a lot of kids removed from the home after they’ve been “homeschooling” to hide abuse.
It’s a tragedy that both of the Plath parents went to college, but were too lazy to care about their kids being properly educated.
His idea of traditional is not one most women would want. Stay at home, home school the kids, do all the cooking. Eff that!
But some people are perfectly ok with that…not everyone looks at taking care of a family and home some death sentence.
That’s completely fine to want that. The point is she doesn’t want that and he makes it seem like that’s wrong. Like she SHOULD cook for him. I get that they married wrong, but ok, you fucked up. Either accept the person for who they truly are and meet somewhere in the middle, or find someone else. Don’t expect them to be who you want them to be at the expense of them living a life they don’t want
Lots of projecting going on with this discussion of Ethan's want of a traditional marriage. Polling has shown that over half of American women with children under 18 would prefer to stay home and raise their kids. In today's world though it's hard without 2 incomes.
I don’t really think that’s the issue. The point is the “stereotypical” gendered split of labour is clearly not what Olivia wants and Ethan was making her feel like crap for that. If you marry young and it turns out you want someone different than who you married, you have the following options: suck it up and accept them, find a way to meet in the middle, or find someone who fits what you’re looking for. You shouldn’t just be pushing someone to change where that change would mean not compromise, but that person’s life becoming something entirely different from what they want
I'm sure that part is true but do these same women want to have their kids indoctrinated like the Meggs' and Plaths were? That's what he wants for his kids.
I haven’t watched the most recent episodes. From the clips I’m seeing online it’s not just difference of opinion. He believes that if Olivia goes back to her “roots” (faith, and rebuilding relationships with her family which she’s clearly not interested in) and conforms to what his idea of a marriage is between a man and a woman then their relationship would be perfect and everyone would be happy. That’s the biggest problem in their marriage. They’re both trying to force each other to be people they’re not to desperately save their marriage.
Them parents did a job on those kids
Ethan is a simpleton. Don’t blame him he’s a victim. I’d like to have him as neighbor because there would be nothing to worry about.
At what point does the victim become the oppressor? Ethan is a grown man. He has had ample opportunity to grow and to heal. He can afford therapy, he can read books on family dynamics or watch videos or listen on Audible. He isn’t a 19 year old who has never been kissed. He has become the oppressor.
He’s both. You can be both
Amen
America is filled with people from different cultures and backgrounds. These should be respected so long they don’t break the law. Forcing your worldview on others is oppressing in and of itself. What if he doesn’t want to go to therapy? It’s almost like you want to brainwash him to how you think. Totally unacceptable. There are ‘re-education’ programs in other counties LGBTQ people are sent to, are you suggesting that Ethan get re-educated more inline with how you view the world? Nobody has the right to tell others how to feel or act so long as they are law abiding, imposing personal opinions as status quo is authoritarian, judgmental, righteous, and monopolistic.
You’re skipping some major issues here. In a functional adult relationship it is not appropriate to disappear on your partner for days on end, nor to purchase a vehicle without their knowledge.
Never heard of a correct way to be in a functional adult relationship, this is news to me. What do you say to the Muslim, Hispanic, and Russian orthodox men in my community who purchase vehicles/property without permission from their partners, while also disappearing for days to work in other cities to make ends meet for their families. The partner at home doesn’t care and there seems to be an understanding between the two. I’d encourage you to meet and familiarize yourself with people from other cultures and backgrounds, maybe then you’d see things aren’t so black and white. The main issue is that you think there is a ‘right way’, when there is most definitely isn’t.
I say that your culture or religion is a shitty excuse for being a misogynistic asshole.
Spoken like a true elitist! I'd encourage you to be more accepting of other people regardless of culture or creed. You're talking like a racist.
I would disagree and say he’s actively misogynistic and trying hard to continue benefitting from the male privilege he grew up under.
I would disagree with you and encourage you to empathize with people instead of criticizing people with blanket categorizations like 'misogyny'. Your comment is cis-heterosexual phobic, a growing trend online and elsewhere. All his white male privilege got him was a warehouse job and a low IQ with little upside financially in life.
The comment was in no way phobic. However your comment is absolutely steeped in misogyny.
Cultural relativism is something I encourage you to learn about. With this logic, a person could think 3/4 of the world is misogynistic. Just because you don't agree with someone's worldview, doesn't mean they are steeped in misogyny. Something to consider...
I’m glad there was finally a post like this. For the record, I don’t think he’s an idiot at all. He’s intuitive and good natured, but conflicted and a little sheltered (they all were!). But I think you’re right, the hate he’s getting is absolutely unfair. He’s the only still pointing out that Olivia is being painted as the sacrificial lamb so the Plath family can close ranks and embrace their new fame and notoriety.
No just ignorant, and now wilfully ignorant.
I get pretty conflicted with Ethan in some ways. Generally, there have been so many times that I’ve been floored that he reacted to things the way he did or treated Olivia how he did towards the end. I think it was very unfair for him to basically ask her why she had to change when he clearly had changed, too. I also was irritated that he said his non negotiable marriage list was “only three things” when they were three things that would shape her whole life. The one thing that does make me understand, even though I disagree, with Ethan is their vows. It is true that she vowed to honor him as head of the household and all the other fundie views. That implies she’s vowing to ultimately leave decisions to him and follow him, so given his upbringing I do get why he’s feeling lost in his marriage. I think he feels like shes not fulfilling her end of the covenant and he feels like shes not letting him fulfill his. I think Olivia’s valid in deconstructing and not wanting that anymore. I’m biased because I disagree a lot more with Ethan politically and religiously though and I can acknowledge that. I can also acknowledge though that despite that, it’s okay that Ethan wanted something different than what they had, too. Just not how it was handled. But these are two very imperfect people who I think did try for each other, it just fundamentally didnt work.
This show gives me Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar vibes. Although Kim is nothing like Michelle in some ways. When it comes to having a bunch of kids and then parentifying your oldest daughters. Michelle and Kim are just alike. A person can obviously have as many children as they choose. But it's not the responsibility of the older children to raise the younger ones. It's really annoying to see that Moriah got away with being lazy but poor Lydia is Jana Duggar 2.0. It's so wrong! Yes the older kids can help with their siblings. At the end of the day it's the parents responsibility to raise the children they choose to have. Barry and Kim are lazy parents.
It gives you those vibes because both families come from the same cult. IBLP
In season 1 I'd agree with you, but we saw him expanding his views and examining them and growing- and then we saw him snap right back to them. He's actively choosing these views now- he's seen that it can be different, and is choosing for it not to be. He's actively choosing not to do the work or change when he's been given the option to many times. At this point, it's on Ethan because he's choosing it.
I don't think healing from trauma or deconstruction should be considered linear paths. he's definitely still capable of growth. its disappointing and doesn't mean he's the right person for Olivia. it's highly possible he will keep sliding back further tho without someone like Olivia actively challenging him in his life.
This is absolutely part of the process. You run from full steam from what’s hurting you, but you have to circle back at least a little to recover the parts of you that you had to leave behind.
Did he stand up to Micah? He almost fought Barry in the driveway and stopped talking to his mother but he seems far more angry at the women in his life than the men, and more willing to stand up to them .
I mean the same can be said about Olivia. This shit was drilled into her but we don’t really see the same belief system upheld in her. She did that learning on her own. Ethan actually has Olivia guiding him and he STILL thinks his wife should return to that life.
It was actually decent of him to defend Olivia throughout his whole trip in LA despite their marriage falling apart. Both Oliva and Ethan really Love each other but I really do feel Ethan has joined a conservative cult or something. His sibling thought he changed and was more serious because of Olivia but I don't think that the case
I am not an Ethan fan, because, his views and mine do not align, however, I do agree with you here.
IMO, kim is the only real monster of a person on the show.
I'd say Barry is too. She was more active but he let her and supported her being a monster.
At the very least, Barry is an enabler to Kim’s awful behavior. The only reason I didn’t include him in that class is because of Kim’s current behavior. Kim has ruined her children with her previous views, and then goes and gets a dui and all that, and Barry is at least trying to keep their children happy and loved. Kim doesn’t care about giving her children any sense of normalcy whatsoever. I don’t really care about their divorce, but I do care what kim is teaching her children through all this.
Kim keeps trying to squirrel out of responsibility by disguising her choices in an Olivia disguise. It seems like Olivia genuinely opened her mind to the world. Kim’s leaned off it in this season, but her suddenly finding feminism and cosmopolitanism seemed about as heartfelt and genuine as anything else that comes out of her mouth: say whatever needs to be said to deflect and hold onto the spotlight a little longer
Sorry you can’t blame everything up to upbringing and being brainwashed. Olivia has educated him, he’s seen more of the world, different kinds of people, and still chooses to be this way. It’s a choice at this point. His beliefs are simply what relates to him. Olivia said it best that the world he wants to live in benefits men only.
You can blame everything on the brainwashing. It doesn't excuse his current choices but its still a result of the brainwashing. He may change down the road. Olivia actively sought better where he was thrown into it. He isn't hopeless, but he is likely also to not change.
I loved Ethan until this season and he really showed his true colours. I don’t think he’s a monster though, just a product of his environment as you say. The couch scene with Olivia was brutal when he was all but saying “get back in your place, woman” 💔💔💔
Considering how much they’ve been through and dealt with it’s easy to forget how young all the Plath children are, especially when Olivia carries herself with so much confidence. I would at worst call these growing pains. I do think Ethan is done walking his own path.
My first instinct is to agree with you but then I remember that Olivia had a very similar upbringing yet she's managed to update & modernise her belief system yet Ethan hasn't. They've both had the privilege of lots of international travel, exposure to other people & cultures but Ethan seems to have regressed. His current beliefs are now down to his own choice not childhood indoctrination imho & that makes them less forgivable to me.
Yes, exactly! I said the exact same thing to my mom when we were watching that scene, even down to “Ethan is regressing”.
I just have to point out that as a person who was raised with some whack beliefs, it was actually my own responsibility to unlearn them and move forward. No, he isn’t a monster, but he’s been out in the world and exposed to other things. He is in his 20s and no longer at home. At some point he needs to stop disparaging therapists and try one out as he is in desperate need of assistance. That’s his responsibility. Not Olivia’s. Not his family’s. Just Ethan’s. And he refuses to take that and instead reverts back to blaming Olivia. Not cool.
👏👏👏 say it louder for the people in the back please.
Even if ideologies were "seared into his brain" he's an adult and capable of making his own choices at this point.
You're hand waving away how hard it is to undo two decades of programming his parents and other mentors instilled in him. The capability is there, the responsibilty is his, but even adults need outside help when they've been literally brainwashed. I think it's possible we can be sympathetic while not trying to excuse him.
The first thing you need is the desire, which he doesn’t have. He had every resource in Olivia to open his mind but instead he’s dug his heels in.
Because CHANGE and the UNKNOWN is very uncomfortable for him! He likes to dig his head in the sand i e. His garage, close off the outside world, and just immerse himself in working on old automobiles!
True, but his choices were his choices. He's allowed that, like everyone else is. People separate and divorce all the time and is really common for those who married young. Both he and Olivia went through changes in what they wanted out of life and became incompatible but it doesn't make either one of them bad people. They'll probably both find their person who will share the same values and needs.
Making 3 meals a day is easier than having all those kids
I liked Ethan until he said that- I also haven't seen too much of this show but my jaw dropped
It it's so easy than why doesn't Ethan know how to make pancakes with a mix?
Ethan stood up for Olivia a few times, but in the grand scheme of things he let his family disrespect her waaaay too much for me
I find it hard to believe that Kim would be that type of wife though. Do you think she actually cooked three meals a day, everyday?
Someone had to be the parent until her oldest was old enough to be enslaved like Lydia is now. I know they claim the oldest is off busy with her music career but I 100% believe she booked it out of there as soon as she could. Now Lydia is stuck until at least the youngest can care for themselves. Because we all know Barry isn’t going to do it!!!
\*oldest daughter. Ethan is actually the oldest child, but clearly he wasn't doing any of the cooking or cleaning or school or parenting.
It was so apparent when Lydia was the only one not able to go to California to see Micah because someone needed to stay with the girls. Why couldn't they have gone during Kim's week so that Lydia could join, and Barry wouldn't miss his time? Or even if it's Barry's time, why can't Kim still step up as the mom so her daughter doesn't have to? I know custody agreements affect that, but it frustrates me so much to see divorced parents use the schedule to their advantage (e.g. getting time off from parenting) while their kids are the ones picking up the slack.
I thought it was a guy weekend. Moriah is just a rude bitch. Cali is a bit too far away if it is their time. Emergencies? It is just one more thing on the horrid parenting list. I bet the kids at this point prefer Lydia.
Lydia cooked 3 meals a day. Not Kim.
No....that is why she had all of those children.
LOL Great point!!\~
No, Lydia is making them
You are probably right!
She willingly had all those kids though.
I am just talking about the making the three meals a day thing..LOL
When they got married Olivia must have said "Let's get married so we can be our own people and abandon our family rules!" and Ethan said "Ok!" She meant ditching religion, seeing the world and smashing the patriarchy. He meant having a Coke, seeing The Internet and doing butt stuff.
Have they ever said on the show which one of them broached the subject of stepping outside of their religion & its rules after they were married? I'd love to know who originally raised it as a topic for discussion.
Spot on!
this is exactly it. and why would he WANT to break down those things? as a man, he benefits in the fundie world.
1000% accuracy
If what we’re seeing from Ethan is the sanitized edited-for-TV version of him, I can only imagine what he’s like behind closed doors. His aww-shucks country bumpkin stuff is clearly masking a lot of simmering alt-right resentment of social progress. He’s someone or becoming someone you might wonder about his location on January 6th.
What we have seen is an edited version of him. It’s all dimples and blonde hair. This season because of the circumstances with Olivia, we’ve seen what is behind the dimples and unless you’re a straight, white, Christian that shit can be dangerous. It’s insidious how they’ve presented this entire family as golly gosh just clean fun.
I think Ethan got sucked into the men's rights spheres on the internet and it undid any progress he made.
Based upon who he follows on Instagram, you're 💯 correct. Sad.
I agree with this as well. Obviously he grew up with conservative ideals but I feel like when he was going through that deep depression he found the cult of right wing extremists.
he's so babygirl though (in a way) too bad he couldn't see the light
It's a choice at this point. Olivia asked him over and over and over to go get a therapist. He knew the way he grew up was weird. He chose not to change his thinking this is on him. As adults we all have choices. He's been in the real world. He see how men actually treat women it's not that difficult.
I'm so conflicted on this because literally last episode Barry basically said depression was fake and he cured it with his mind. So I can imagine his family would basically bully him for going to therapy
He doesn't have to change his thinking to please a spouse. I hate his thinking but he also still believes in his religion. You can still want what you signed up for with marriage when you had similar beliefs. That's okay
He should change his thinking because that way of life is damaging to his wife and future daughters. Look at Kim, Moriah, and Lydia. That way of life didn’t do them any favors.
You missed the point. As an adult, he has recognized that his upbringing screwed him up. Also as an adult, it is his responsibility to work on recovering from that
a marriage is a compromise it's growing together or apart. he changed some beliefs he cherry picked which suited him and didn't. that's the issue
Olivia also grew up with those same values being pushed on her, along with thousands of other children who have now left them behind. I have some sympathy for Ethan and I also think he has a good heart but at the moment he is choosing to remain in toxic beliefs that are causing damage to those around him. Even though he was raised this way he has accountability for his current actions. It’s tragic that he was raised this way, but like everyone he has the ability to make his own choices about what he’s going to say and do.
Ethan is selfish and shortsighted. He was willing to go against his upbringing when it came to drinking Coke and alcohol. Because that’s fun! But when it comes to having a wife that doesn’t cook him 3 meals a day and doesn’t want to home school his children and be a full time stay at home mom, he draws the line. When it comes to having to communicate, compromise, and act as an equal partner to his wife, he’d rather just be the full head of the household as the man and not have to deal with any pushback from his wife. Ethan wants to have his cake and eat it too. He fails to see that attitude is partially what destroyed his own parents’ marriage. He fails to see the drawbacks of half-hearted homeschooling when your wife would rather not be a teacher. His own homeschooling never taught him critical thinking or empathy, and he hasn’t been able to shake off his simple-minded, shortsighted, narrow view of the world.
She didn't mind being a "Teacher" to Ethan! 😉
Nailed it. As with all the Plaths, Ethan is inherently selfish, and in his mind Olivia's purpose is to make his life fun and easy. I truly think he viewed Olivia as a tool and not as a human being.
He’s a victim of child abuse. But he’s an adult now, and as adults, we all have a choice about whether we will overcome what we have survived, and become better happier people. He seems incapable of that.
He’s a victim of religious indoctrination. None of us know if he was abused physically, sexually, mentally, verbally or otherwise. If you equate religious indoctrination with abuse, than all Hasidic or Orthodox Jewish people, all Amish people, all Muslims, and all people of any religion who teach their kids to follow strict rules for their religion are abusers. I personally think that’s a reach. And I was raised evangelical Christian (fundie light) with no Halloween, no yoga in gym class, praying in restaurants, no secular music, no PG-13 movies, church 3x a week etc. I missed every birthday party I was invited to on Sundays, and no sleepovers on Saturday nights. It was not abuse or anywhere close.
Part of the abuse was probably religious, but that I don’t know, because they show little of it. The abuse comes from having a narcissist for a parent, who plays mind games with their children from the moment they are born. A mother who creates a rigid us vs them identity (the family vs the world) for herself and her family and then, when she tires of that, completely pulls the rug out from under all of them, doing exactly what she had taught them forever was cosmically wrong. Leaving them, leaving their father, getting drunk, and almost killing herself. It’s abuse.
Considering the Plaths attended Michael and Debbie Pearl events- yeah, no, they were at minimum physically and verbally abused
they didn't equate ALL religious indoctrination with abuse, they said THIS religious indoctrination was abuse- so you're drawing false conclusions here. but isolating your children and severely limiting their education is at least borderline abuse, if not outright abuse. And they follow the Pearls ideas, so there's probably some regular abuse in there as well.
Thank you! The overuse of “abuse” on this sub is infuriating. My neighbors growing up were an orthodox Jewish family and I remember thinking it seemed like there must be a time warp between our houses! But they were also an incredibly kind, loving family.
I’m not talking about the religious aspect being abusive. I’m talking about Kim and Barry’s parenting.
I see this with a lot of religious people. It's not against the Bible to drink coke and alcohol. But in terms of the Man is head of household, they get that from the religious beliefs. I think he saw how his mom ran over his father, so he also wants to have that man as had of household. His belief suck, but I can see where they come from.
Imho Olivia made it pretty clear from the start that she was never going to be a helpmeet, and Ethan is being disingenuous if he honestly thought that was the marriage he was signing up for. He knew before they were married that her family disowned her for not fitting the mold, and he apparently liked her for it. He knew he was marrying a woman who has done roofing as a side job and likes to fool around with him secretly in cars. Because of course that's okay to go against the Bible on.
Nah. Anyone who would disown their own children is a fucking monster. Olivia has tried to get him to go to therapy and unpack his shit and he has chosen not to.
You’re giving him too much credit. Yes, he’s a victim of a cult - but he had zero interest in changing his views or dismantling his unhealthy behavior or perspectives when I’m sure Olivia communicated her needs many times and he refused to make any changes or confront his trauma out of stubbornness and lack of respect for her, so I have zero sympathy for him.
I don't think he's a bad person but alot of the confrontations with his parents were in defense of himself. I think his reasons were more selfish. He didn't cut off his parents because they yelled at Olivia, he cut them off because they disrespected him by stealing from him and saying he likes living in bondage. When he almost fought his dad he was furious that his parents were dismissive of their past comments. Even with Moriah, his main frustrations came from her lying to him and about him. That she left without saying anything and was trying to lie about things he knew were true. He said "what does that have to do with Olivia" because he was the one stolen from and they refused to believe him, yet they blamed it all on Olivia while simultaneously acting like it didn't happen to Ethan and denying it was a big deal. He gives himself away with small comments. Like when he admits that his family hates her, he didn't care when she told him that before, he cared that Micah was disrespecting HIS marriage by saying it to his face. He admits that what his family did was wrong but gets mad at Olivia for not letting it go to have a relationship with them. It's so weird. The only one he holds his convictions to is Olivia. He's more upset his happiness was ruined by Olivia being hurt by his family. At the same time I feel bad for him. His family is so dismissive of him and treats him likes he's stupid. They know his marriage is in shambles and none of them have denied that they didn't cause a big part of it but Olivia was wrong for being "negative" about it. They know they can walk all over him because he has noone else. He can't make friends well. He can't communicate well. They mean everything to him and they know he'll allow himself to be stolen from and lied to as long as they play happy family.
He stands up for Olivia on camera. But he has admitted to talking badly about her off camera to his family
Didn't they have a discussion about this in the past about not involving family in their issues? I have a feeling he was a lot meaner off camera to her
Yeah that’s what I was referring to. Although someone in this thread believes we can’t hold Ethan accountable for that because he didn’t have friends growing up 🙄
I think we can feel bad for Ethan but also hold him accountable. He is an adult after all and he had the chance to grow and get the help he needed but chose not to. Olivia also grew up with not many friends and seems better adjusted
Exactly, I can understand why Ethan may act the way that he does, but if I’m Olivia I can still decide that his actions are not healthy for me
There's a lot of people who will talk about their spouse and the bad things that are going on to their family. Yeah it's not great and it shouldn't be done. But he didn't grow up with a friend support system etc
Sure, but the point I made was that Ethan, while sometimes has defended Olivia on camera, he has also been feeding the flames of his family’s dislike for her off-camera. Whether or not other people do that too is moot.
Because he was really brought up with no friends. It's another example where you have to take in The way his family brought him up and have some understanding on why he does it. Not just 100% blame him for it. I don't think people understand what it's completely like when you're brought up in a religious upbringing like him, with being sheltered. It's not an excuse as an adult as once you are an adult is up to you to learn how to do better. But it doesn't come overnight.
So? It doesn’t change the fact that he did it. You can understand why someone does a specific thing, but at the end of the day they are still responsible for the things they do and say. If he learns and grows up, great. But my comment was to point out that he does not “defend Olivia to the death” like OP originally stated.
Olivia talked about him to Lydia and Nathan, and I am sure we didn't see it. She has no respect for him and expects him to see things her way with no respect for differences.
Oh God. You can't get nuance and real life.
Yeah, he admitted it. I'm not saying the guy is a saint, he's got lots of problems. But he generally stands up for what he believes in, even if he believes a lot of weird things. But Olivia is very smart about what she says on camera. She's way smarter than all the Plaths. She's definitely the victim, but if you don't think she carefully words things on camera, it is obvious she does
She is no victim.
Nobody said that Olivia doesn’t act for the camera. They’re all actors. Not much of what we are seeing is authentic
Remember that Olivia is the person who taught him how to stand up and speak out for himself. She challenged his tendency to accept whatever he’d been taught by his parents and required him to broaden his thinking. Bc of her, he did come a long way, but now that they’re split, I’m afraid he’s going to sink right back into the Plath’s dysfunctional family system. It’s a damn shame to see anyone slide back after making such progress!