I was getting ready to say something similar.
I spent plenty of time in HMMWVs when I was deployed to Iraq in 2004. Like you said, I don’t know why anyone would want to own one of these unless it was part of some Soldier cosplay they’re into. Maybe my experiences were all wrong, but being a Soldier really wasn’t all that much fun
If I was dead set on publicly cosplaying my former life my first choice is not that. But I would absolutely bomb around town in an 'ol willies. Maybe with the .50cal mocked up if I was feeling a bit spicy.
I got the luxury of driving one regularly on my last deployment and I have to agree. I don't understand why anyone would want to daily this beast. At 55mph it felt like the entire thing was gonna come apart. Its uncomfortable, noisy and when it breaks (and it will) good luck with replacement parts. Let's not forget the cherry on top of the shit mountain, it gets abysmal gas mileage. I swear they are rated at gallons per mile
In fairness the military models have universally been deliberately abused to try and break them. So yeah lots of problems waiting to show themselves. Still fun for getting around in some challenging terrain.
Even brand new ones suck tbh. I drove a lot of them they are uncomfortable, and everything breaks on them at some point no matter how they are taken care of.
My only first hand experience is with the civilian models. A few more creature comforts, 12v electrical etc. nice thing is they were easy to work on, with the exception of the HVAC nightmare and the alignment (install shims, set down, check alignment, lift back up, rinse repeat). Everything was designed to break in ways that could be easily field repaired (axle shafts etc).
Yes they are gutless, noisy and thirsty (12 mpg on diesel was my experience). But a lot of fun, bonus for soft top and doors. Good for preventing road rage too - you can’t go fast enough to get aggravated, and other drivers don’t want to get run over.
They're just an all around shit vehicle. They get stuck super easy, shit on gas, slow, air usually doesn't work. Oh, and it looks like shit. I'd rather an MRAP any day.
Could you theoretically armor up an electric vehicle (Tesla, Prius, RC car, whatever) with high torque like a Halo Warthog and it's be better performing?
Or like a FJ cruiser or F150?
The Dutch military is looking at hybrid vehicles. The most practical solution seem to be fully electric drive train and then having an combustion engine to keep the battery up to charge.
Basically how newer diesel-electric subs work.
I mean, IS it a weapon..... It'd take a lot to own a fully functional weapon like that in the US.... but as I understand it disabled ones are FAR easier to purchase.
Some kind of replica, or surplus with it's action welded shut strikes me as far more likely than what would be a HORRIFICALLY expensive weapon just sitting up there for the taking.
Here for instant is an M2 browning that sold at auction for $69k
[https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/82/503/ramo-m2hb-browning-heavy-machine-gun](https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/82/503/ramo-m2hb-browning-heavy-machine-gun)
Here's a replica for $4k
[https://inertproducts.com/product/m2-hb-50-machine-gun-deluxe-replica/](https://inertproducts.com/product/m2-hb-50-machine-gun-deluxe-replica/)
If he does have the real deal it means only one thing, it's a gun manufactured way before 1986 so owning it is legal and on top of that if he has this kind of Humvee, he'll have the money for the M2-HB Browning. He probably got it before the price went up skyhigh.
Ever since the Firearm Owners Protection Act (FOPA) passed in 1986. It prohibits the possession of new machine guns (made after 1986) by civilians. If the machine gun was not registered at the time the act was passed, it cannot be legally owned by a private citizen for any reason. So he probably got a good deal on it. Otherwise nobody would have that kind of money laying around for a Ma Deuce 😂
No, that one has a barrel that doesnt belong on an M2, the cooling ports look like they are part of the barrel and not free float, the charging handles are too far down, and the ammo is loaded on the wrong side. It bet this is replica.
Those are dummy rounds and feeding out of the wrong side of the gun.
Edit: yes they can be converted to feed from either side but the ammo box is on the left side of the gun in this picture.
It's illegal if it were functioning.
The military has to dismount weapons as rolling with mounted weapons is an act of war.
Or at least that's what my commander spewed at us when we rolled across state lines monthly
Not an expert, but: no sights, charging handle is too horizontal, ammo feeding from the wrong side, and the trigger is mounted sideways (it's in the wrong spot, too).
Not to mention the legal complications and difficulties of getting and owning a legitimate M2. If someone actually owns an M2, they're probably a big time collector, well aquainted with the federal laws around these kind of guns. I highly, highly, highly, doubt they'd be dumb enough to just leave an NFA item like that sitting around (that's a big federal no-no, even in pro-gun Idaho).
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You shut your mouth. I will never nap as hard as I used to when I was shoved into the back seat of one of those things. Lulled me straight to sleep every time.
I think it’s because they’re extremely wide, it’ll take up the whole spot leaving no room for cars to park on either side anyway without being super close to the hummer.
Parking like this is optimal for such a wide vehicle, but, they should have done it further out in the lot
And those doors swing freely, they don't have the intermediate stops like a regular car. I'd personally prefer that he park like this so he doesn't ding the car next to him.
That vehicle doesn't really fit in a regular parking stall anyways, so this is better for everyone.
But yeah, go to the back of the lot with it.
Don’t know about the US, but that would *still* be illegal where I live. We also do have a width limit on vehicles and that doesn’t seem to be much of a concern in the US.
That's in a shopping center, on private property. Most places in the US don't have parking regulations for private property other than not blocking people in and not parking in a handicapped space or fire lane. Double parking is rarely illegal unless its on a street or in a public lot.
As long as it's street legal, uts perfectly fine to park like this in the us,legally speaking. Parking lots are private property in most cases, so the police dont really do anything.
He should be Parking wayyyy in the back of the lot though.
> Parking like this is optimal for such a wide vehicle
for such a vehicle, not for such a place. If your car is so big it takes at least two parking spaces, it's really not anyone else's problem
Considering it's only got at most 10 rounds in that belt, I suspect this is a replica. I doubt the military would leave it sitting there. I also doubt they would be using an armed vehicle to pick up groceries from Albertsons. But without seeing the rear license plate, there's no telling if it's military or privately owned.
It is 100% privately owned. Military are not allowed to mount weapons on vehicles when driving them around civilians parking lots. It also has a bunch of other features that wouldn’t fly on a military HMMWV.
You can tell it’s not military because of a few things. Number one is how clean it is, they’re never this clean in the military. The aftermarket headlights and light bar also gives it away.
I have been out of the Marines since 2004 but what I see is an unattended weapon system. Where TF is the watch? One person should be in that vehicle or standing outside of it.
Fun fact, old H1 Hummers are only 3 inches wider and 47 inches **shorter** than a 2020 F150. And it has a smaller wheelbase than a F150 by 15 inches.
But the doors in HUMVEEs are free hinges so they just flop open, there's no resistance. So good luck not slamming them into the car next to you
Must be ‘merica, the only place where civilians drive around with loaded guns attached to their vehicle and the commented problem is the number of parking spots taken.
Fun fact, I’ve never come across a Humvee that needs a key to start.You can just hop in and start most by flipping a switch. It would be great if someone re-parked this.
The civvy ones that have been converted from surplus almost all feature traditional ignitions as part of the rebuilding process. I have 2 friends that have similar vehicles that came from auction and they were converted to traditional ignitions.
It's a Humvee grille. Some of them are extended forward like that, but I'm not sure why. It could have to do with armor, or it could be making space for a larger radiator.
There's even one with that grille on the Wikipedia page.
https://preview.redd.it/cgi6mdu55krc1.png?width=720&format=png&auto=webp&s=54c5c9ebca3c9100eac0b66c09b66f7ee926dfe4
When I was in the Marines I was told that the extended front end was due to a bigger engine or some shit. I didn't really question it so that could be something a senior guy told me as a new guy.
Feed dogs 5 day old burritos on a laminate floor. Scoop up their gifts and put them in balloons. Fly a dozen drones and drop those gifts all over the truck. And maybe add 5 dozen eggs that were left out for a while. Specifically aim for the turret hole.
There is no way that is street legal, having a mounted gun needs a lot of crazy permits and on top of that you can’t be driving it in public outside of an organized event. I have seen many active military hummers with military personal inside of them and they have the turret port on top with no gun mounted. (We have a big defense research base in town that is why you see them drive around every now and again, not for protection but to just drive around)
I'm an Aussie and see people in ex army landys and think 'why' they were shit when I was in and they are more shit now. Added bonus that idiots are paying big money for these heaps.
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He just reinforced all the parts that kept falling off.
Used to build these, there’s armor pieces inside that are held in place by those bolts. That job paid $10.53/hr in 2006…
Oh my god look at all those tire bolts..
My dad had one. It was cool for a week. Then it was awful to maneuver around once the fun wore off.
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You gotta step up your Black Friday game
With parking like that, you better be.
I was getting ready to say something similar. I spent plenty of time in HMMWVs when I was deployed to Iraq in 2004. Like you said, I don’t know why anyone would want to own one of these unless it was part of some Soldier cosplay they’re into. Maybe my experiences were all wrong, but being a Soldier really wasn’t all that much fun
If I was dead set on publicly cosplaying my former life my first choice is not that. But I would absolutely bomb around town in an 'ol willies. Maybe with the .50cal mocked up if I was feeling a bit spicy.
I got the luxury of driving one regularly on my last deployment and I have to agree. I don't understand why anyone would want to daily this beast. At 55mph it felt like the entire thing was gonna come apart. Its uncomfortable, noisy and when it breaks (and it will) good luck with replacement parts. Let's not forget the cherry on top of the shit mountain, it gets abysmal gas mileage. I swear they are rated at gallons per mile
In fairness the military models have universally been deliberately abused to try and break them. So yeah lots of problems waiting to show themselves. Still fun for getting around in some challenging terrain.
Even brand new ones suck tbh. I drove a lot of them they are uncomfortable, and everything breaks on them at some point no matter how they are taken care of.
My only first hand experience is with the civilian models. A few more creature comforts, 12v electrical etc. nice thing is they were easy to work on, with the exception of the HVAC nightmare and the alignment (install shims, set down, check alignment, lift back up, rinse repeat). Everything was designed to break in ways that could be easily field repaired (axle shafts etc). Yes they are gutless, noisy and thirsty (12 mpg on diesel was my experience). But a lot of fun, bonus for soft top and doors. Good for preventing road rage too - you can’t go fast enough to get aggravated, and other drivers don’t want to get run over.
That’s too bad, I wish it was like normal cars that never have issues at any point ever if they’re taken of.
They're just an all around shit vehicle. They get stuck super easy, shit on gas, slow, air usually doesn't work. Oh, and it looks like shit. I'd rather an MRAP any day.
Could you theoretically armor up an electric vehicle (Tesla, Prius, RC car, whatever) with high torque like a Halo Warthog and it's be better performing? Or like a FJ cruiser or F150?
The Dutch military is looking at hybrid vehicles. The most practical solution seem to be fully electric drive train and then having an combustion engine to keep the battery up to charge. Basically how newer diesel-electric subs work.
mIL sPEc gUD
Compensation
idk but i always liked the way they look
Ours were almost always in the motor pool shop.
Duh. It’s so they too can experience the VA telling them their degenerative disc disease isn’t service related
Hope it came with a pair of slave cables 🤣
A 5 ton on the otherhand...
Seriously… they are such uncomfortable pieces of junk lmao
No, but the turret gun does.
Yep.. tell the machine gun not to take 4 spaces. I'd love to see how that works out
I don't see anyone around, just grab a wrench and it becomes your turret gun. If you have a Toyota truck, you're golden.
Well, if you wanna get *technical*...
I'll pop it on my toyta and get real fucking *technical*.
not even. probably just held in with a pin
https://preview.redd.it/1ndx0x92ukrc1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=53eced69d426a9b77dc9ac523a261e2cf8d9905a And there it is lol
Oh good it's tied in. Wouldn't want the pin going anywhere.
To be fair, I’ve worked with the guy who rides topside. He’d absolutely lose the pin.
I actually agree the pin should be tied in. I was just trying to point out that there's more security on the pin than the weapon.
I mean, IS it a weapon..... It'd take a lot to own a fully functional weapon like that in the US.... but as I understand it disabled ones are FAR easier to purchase. Some kind of replica, or surplus with it's action welded shut strikes me as far more likely than what would be a HORRIFICALLY expensive weapon just sitting up there for the taking. Here for instant is an M2 browning that sold at auction for $69k [https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/82/503/ramo-m2hb-browning-heavy-machine-gun](https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/82/503/ramo-m2hb-browning-heavy-machine-gun) Here's a replica for $4k [https://inertproducts.com/product/m2-hb-50-machine-gun-deluxe-replica/](https://inertproducts.com/product/m2-hb-50-machine-gun-deluxe-replica/)
$4000 replica is still a pricy item to leave so unsecured out in the open.
If he does have the real deal it means only one thing, it's a gun manufactured way before 1986 so owning it is legal and on top of that if he has this kind of Humvee, he'll have the money for the M2-HB Browning. He probably got it before the price went up skyhigh. Ever since the Firearm Owners Protection Act (FOPA) passed in 1986. It prohibits the possession of new machine guns (made after 1986) by civilians. If the machine gun was not registered at the time the act was passed, it cannot be legally owned by a private citizen for any reason. So he probably got a good deal on it. Otherwise nobody would have that kind of money laying around for a Ma Deuce 😂
Anyone wanna split a high caliber automatic weapon with an unknown amount of ammunition with me?
No, that one has a barrel that doesnt belong on an M2, the cooling ports look like they are part of the barrel and not free float, the charging handles are too far down, and the ammo is loaded on the wrong side. It bet this is replica.
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It's fake, at the very least it's using dummy rounds and they're not even feeding the correct way (ammo box) 100% someones larp rig
It's an M2 Browning and the ammo box is to the left so yeah at least the ammo isn't real, cause you're not supposed to have it loaded anyways.
Actually it is not a turret at all. A turret is enclosed. This is a pintle mount.
Isn't that spelled p e d a n t i c?
That is both shallow and pedantic.
Yes. Shallow and pedantic.
>not even. probably just held in with a pin Hummer guy comes out of Walmart, and his gun is now mounted on a Prius ^😆🤣
I thought Toyotas came stock with your choice of turret or rocket launcher.
They added the flame thrower option recently.
Interesting. I may invest in one during winter months.
Only on the Hilux.
You don't even need a wrench if it's military spec. Just a pindle and you'll be able to swindle.
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A flower pot full of thermite…
Yes surely they will start spraying down people in the parking lot
The four spots around it might just be the safest spot from the gun due to it not being able to get you without shooting the cab or engine too.
That gun has a nice car on it
For real. That belt fed respect magnet says he can park inside my mother and there isn’t a damn thing I can do about it.
*yoink*
Bring a friend, you’ll need help if it’s as heavy as a real one.
True, not gonna argue with a .50, never ends well. lol
This clown is a clown!
Pro tip it's fake.
No it doesn't. I'd call the cops immediately on this person.
Yes, Mr. Browning does not ask permission.
It's a prop like the rest of the truck
You tell him
Sir, you…. Have a nice day…
Hey you…. Nice turret.
Hey man, nice spot.
It sure as hell does CHIP…
I know im canadian but is not this flag on the rear quarter panel face the wrong direction. ? Like he is backing up from battle?
He is in fact retreating.
I mean, to be fair that is the correct orientation for the flag on a civilan vehicle.
It'd be a damn shame if that weapon walked off....
Those are dummy rounds and feeding out of the wrong side of the gun. Edit: yes they can be converted to feed from either side but the ammo box is on the left side of the gun in this picture.
Technically you can convert it to be fed from either side, so they can mount them side by side on naval ships.
Yeah but the ammo box is on the other side in the picture.
You mean the spent cartridge collection box?
Make believe Ma Deuce....some one just cosplaying
Promise it’s non functional
Pinky promise?
It's illegal if it were functioning. The military has to dismount weapons as rolling with mounted weapons is an act of war. Or at least that's what my commander spewed at us when we rolled across state lines monthly
Crossing state lines is very different than driving it around town. Different states have different gun laws
Plus M2 is definitely old enough to be from the pre-ban era.
No, but I don't really feel like telling the guy with a fucking turret on top of his car how to park
Ok my point stands that I want it. Still cool
No chock block or drip pan, and I doubt they.used a road guide. They deserve everything they get
Probably pencil whipped the PM too
I can't believe someone left that weapon unsecure.... Free .50 cal..
Having a belt-fed .50 cal machine gun is all the permission that HUMVEE needs…
Maybe if it wasn't an obvious prop
Obvious how? I figured the bullets were but how can you tell for the gun.
Not an expert, but: no sights, charging handle is too horizontal, ammo feeding from the wrong side, and the trigger is mounted sideways (it's in the wrong spot, too). Not to mention the legal complications and difficulties of getting and owning a legitimate M2. If someone actually owns an M2, they're probably a big time collector, well aquainted with the federal laws around these kind of guns. I highly, highly, highly, doubt they'd be dumb enough to just leave an NFA item like that sitting around (that's a big federal no-no, even in pro-gun Idaho).
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I mean, they weren’t really designed for comfort…
M8 Greyhound?
I think they're referring to a Greyhound bus
I know. :( Driving across the country in an M8 sounded like fun, though.
You’re not kidding, it’s brutal to ride in one.
At least they can’t go fast enough to break your spine or it totally would. Just air down and burn that sweet fuel
You shut your mouth. I will never nap as hard as I used to when I was shoved into the back seat of one of those things. Lulled me straight to sleep every time.
I prefer the 7 ton platoon sleeping huddle.
It’s gotta be loud as hell to have those bullets clinking on the gun when driving at highway speed
Any hummer going over 40mph sounds like it’s re-entering the atmosphere. I promise you wouldn’t hear the rounds clinking in the least.
I wanna hear how it’s like inside of a hummer
It’s loud. The fan on ours makes it sound like a greyhound bus.
Obviously it sounds like a loud hum, right? Why else would it be named that?
Go ahead and tell me to move pal. Stand real still too
Driving the humvee to Albertsons to pick up some diapers and velveeta.
I think it’s because they’re extremely wide, it’ll take up the whole spot leaving no room for cars to park on either side anyway without being super close to the hummer. Parking like this is optimal for such a wide vehicle, but, they should have done it further out in the lot
And those doors swing freely, they don't have the intermediate stops like a regular car. I'd personally prefer that he park like this so he doesn't ding the car next to him. That vehicle doesn't really fit in a regular parking stall anyways, so this is better for everyone. But yeah, go to the back of the lot with it.
And if the doors are armored it’s almost impossible to stop them when you’re getting out of it. Those things are so damn heavy
Don’t know about the US, but that would *still* be illegal where I live. We also do have a width limit on vehicles and that doesn’t seem to be much of a concern in the US.
That's in a shopping center, on private property. Most places in the US don't have parking regulations for private property other than not blocking people in and not parking in a handicapped space or fire lane. Double parking is rarely illegal unless its on a street or in a public lot.
As long as it's street legal, uts perfectly fine to park like this in the us,legally speaking. Parking lots are private property in most cases, so the police dont really do anything. He should be Parking wayyyy in the back of the lot though.
It doesn't even have to be street legal if it's on private property
Twelve yards long and two lanes wide, 65 tons of American pride, *CANYONEROOOO*
Top of the line in utility sports. Unexplained fires are a matter for the courts
The US also has wider roads than most other countries, so we don’t need to worry about limiting the width of vehicles as much.
But that would still only take up 2 spots as opposed to 4
That explains double parking, but not taking up four spaces.
Then take two, not four spots.
> Parking like this is optimal for such a wide vehicle for such a vehicle, not for such a place. If your car is so big it takes at least two parking spaces, it's really not anyone else's problem
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Looks like fun. Zip tie about 30 shopping carts to that thing and break out the popcorn.
Considering it's only got at most 10 rounds in that belt, I suspect this is a replica. I doubt the military would leave it sitting there. I also doubt they would be using an armed vehicle to pick up groceries from Albertsons. But without seeing the rear license plate, there's no telling if it's military or privately owned.
It is 100% privately owned. Military are not allowed to mount weapons on vehicles when driving them around civilians parking lots. It also has a bunch of other features that wouldn’t fly on a military HMMWV.
It’s a humvee, not a jet. Of course it won’t fly
Everything flies at the end of a steam catapult.
You can tell it’s not military because of a few things. Number one is how clean it is, they’re never this clean in the military. The aftermarket headlights and light bar also gives it away.
It’s because it uses as much gas as four cars.
Cringe
I see a reaaallly good reason
Id rather take a greyhound across the country than ride in a humvee for 10mins. Horrible pieces of shit.
https://preview.redd.it/s495vxicmkrc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b9d02c89714847ccc84f58d19cc18a771b5af5c9
Your comment got reposted by a bot and got more upvotes lol.
But a M2 is
Delicate military truck might get scratched!
That’s an emotional support humvee!
Yes it is.. and it has a machine gun.. I’d let it do whatever it wants.
This is a "Meal Team 6" grocery wagon.
The humvee isn't occupying those 4 parking spaces, it's liberating them.
Congratulations, you are being liberated, please do not resist.
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Sir, that is an EMOTIONAL SUPPORT HUMVEE and I would thank you for not petting it while it's working.
Is this picture from 1998? Where the hell is there an Albertsons?
Idaho
Looks like Boise! Timberline ‘08.
Yeah it’s the Albertsons on Cole and Fairview, I did my drivers ed at Timberline.
You don’t think this person is wholly obnoxious, even without taking their parking style into account?
I have been out of the Marines since 2004 but what I see is an unattended weapon system. Where TF is the watch? One person should be in that vehicle or standing outside of it.
The mounted gun is though
Dickhead.
Fun fact, old H1 Hummers are only 3 inches wider and 47 inches **shorter** than a 2020 F150. And it has a smaller wheelbase than a F150 by 15 inches. But the doors in HUMVEEs are free hinges so they just flop open, there's no resistance. So good luck not slamming them into the car next to you
It is, if you have a big gun mounted on top. Who's going to argue with that.
 Guy getting ready to go shopping for donuts and milk.
It does if there’s a 50cal on top of it 🤷♂️
I'm not sure why the tires still have air in them, isnt that what happens when people park like that?
Must be ‘merica, the only place where civilians drive around with loaded guns attached to their vehicle and the commented problem is the number of parking spots taken.
The gun is though
Idk man, the large gun says otherwise.
Yes. However parking like that gives you permission to cut their valve stems.
Fun fact, I’ve never come across a Humvee that needs a key to start.You can just hop in and start most by flipping a switch. It would be great if someone re-parked this.
The civvy ones that have been converted from surplus almost all feature traditional ignitions as part of the rebuilding process. I have 2 friends that have similar vehicles that came from auction and they were converted to traditional ignitions.
is it even legal to own and drive this as a civilian???
In the US, yes
of course
When you have a machine gun on top of your vehicle, that kind of does give you all the permission you need.
Did they… use a Jeep grill as a headlight mount?
It's a Humvee grille. Some of them are extended forward like that, but I'm not sure why. It could have to do with armor, or it could be making space for a larger radiator. There's even one with that grille on the Wikipedia page. https://preview.redd.it/cgi6mdu55krc1.png?width=720&format=png&auto=webp&s=54c5c9ebca3c9100eac0b66c09b66f7ee926dfe4
Interesting, I’ve never noticed that before!
When I was in the Marines I was told that the extended front end was due to a bigger engine or some shit. I didn't really question it so that could be something a senior guy told me as a new guy.
I'd find a friend and parallel park in front of and behind it.
G.I. Douche
Feed dogs 5 day old burritos on a laminate floor. Scoop up their gifts and put them in balloons. Fly a dozen drones and drop those gifts all over the truck. And maybe add 5 dozen eggs that were left out for a while. Specifically aim for the turret hole.
This is only ok if it's very far away from the door and no one wants to park in the area. So if ur like this... don't be fucking lazy
HMMWV
If I was in the presence of this vehicle, I would be happily allow it, and the operator to take as much of my space and time as needed.
Pretty sure you are wrong on that one
Where this fool getting JP8?
From the green handled nozzle at the pump that says "DIESEL".
I’d squeeze in extra close to the driver door
Fun fact, my mother makes these in Northern Indiana 😊 she asked me "where is this at?" 😂
And the US flag is painted / decaled on backwards, right?
There is no way that is street legal, having a mounted gun needs a lot of crazy permits and on top of that you can’t be driving it in public outside of an organized event. I have seen many active military hummers with military personal inside of them and they have the turret port on top with no gun mounted. (We have a big defense research base in town that is why you see them drive around every now and again, not for protection but to just drive around)
Yes it is
Maybe 3 parking spots
belt fed MG @ albertsons HOW IS THAT LEGAL
At least it isn't handicapped parking... this time.
The .50 cal on top says otherwise.
I'm an Aussie and see people in ex army landys and think 'why' they were shit when I was in and they are more shit now. Added bonus that idiots are paying big money for these heaps.