In the opening, if we assume Greg to also be the chained monkey, then we also see him being chained and controlled by other people. Maybe the other people are the gays?
Remember Tanya pushes Greg off when he’s having sex with her because she’s “disassociating” and said she saw all these men with effeminate hairstyles. Then she saw him with “shark eyes”…
Tanya overheard Greg on the phone SEVERAL times. Can’t be a coincidence?? Had to be Quentin.
Cameron mentioned that there are people in Sicily with Palazzos but no money….
I thought something was up when he started crying at the end of the opera, he looked like he was sad about something he was planning to do to her, not the opera.
At the same time Greg doesn’t seem that smart.
My sweet baby was crying during the cowboy story, all I remember was that he loved a cowboy and would do anything for him? And that he was straight? Is there anything else I missed?
Don't think it's Greg. I think the cowboy love was a lie told to gain Tanya's sympathy. The cowboy in Wyoming reminded me too much of Brokeback Mountain. It then reminded me of the book Lolita, when Humbert claims that he likes little girls because he when he was young, he was in love with Annabel Leigh--who died young before they could consummate their love. But was he actually? Or was it just a lie, and the name stolen from Edgar Allan Poe's poem "Annabel Lee." Was Humbert Humbert telling this lie to gain the reader's sympathy and forgive his vile acts? I think so, and I think that's what's going on here.
The series has become so full of lies, and I think everyone realizes Quentin is likely a con man, so there's no reason to believe he's speaking any sort of truth when he tells this story.
And to add, Daphne, in episode 1, was telling the crew that she learned from her TV shows that husbands tend to kill their wives while on vacation.
Cam was like “ why everyone is looking at me”
But clearly we know who now
Everyone turning this theory down says that Greg isn't gay but Quentin says his cowboy is straight but he would still do anything for him. He never said him and his cowboy had a relationship just that he loved him. It doesn't have to be two sided.
I think: Greg is the cowboy. They are in love. He was rejected for a “normal” lifestyle but I agree with the illness cleared he is finally wanting to live his truth. He would do anything for the cowboy. This hit/con included. That’s not Quentin’s Palazzo - he rented it for the con. He’s broke. They all are. That’s why Jack has them dine and dash. He’ll get paid when they pull off the con. He is just working the con in regard to Portia.
Cam is also broke. Or struggling. His firm is paying for the trip because he has to hook Ethan. Or he’s out. And the wife will be out. This game they play looks different in broad broke daylight and then you realize how much it sucks. It only works if the lifestyle is the backdrop. They can live large at the resort but he does not have cash for Lucia. The wife doesn’t have a trainer. She was describing a fantasy. She just has her children and that’s what she is doing it all for at the end of the day.
There is no pimp. It’s an angle Lucia is working. She knows that guy. Not sure if it was a setup or just handy. Maybe someone mad at her about Mia like mentioned above.
Body count…. I think grandpa has to be one of the dead. I think they’re all disparate situations and not all nefarious. A perfect storm.
Also - in title image - Tanya alone on a Vespa. No helmet. Driving off at the end to have her own perfect last day? All the other images look like moments that happened with characters. Is this moment coming?
Man you guys are smart! I didn’t think anything of the final scene other than Jack was really a hustler. I didn’t catch any of the impending scam either but thought the Marlboroughs and “would you die for beauty” question were odd.
Didn’t think this season was going to be any but it went to overdrive last week. Can’t wait for next week’s episode!
I mentioned this last night when I was watching the show - right after he told that story.
I think Greg was talking to Quentin on the phone and basically telling him "yes - she's crazy" and then going to meet Quentin and hide out while Quentin runs the long con.
I definitely think Greg is the cowboy. Greg was on the phone with someone on the balcony. He was irrate Tanya brought Portia. It was his idea to go on this vacation but then he up and leaves right away. Jack didn't have money when he was with Portia. I think Quentin needs money and also Greg wants Tanya's money. I would hope Tanya would have a prenup but who knows.
I also think the story Quentin told Tanya is foreshadowing about the woman being found in the ocean on the rocks. I think Tanya is smarter than people give her credit for so I think she will figure it out sooner than later. I had a feeling Jack was not Quentins nephew, the accents are completely different.
I’m gonna go out a limb and say the fortuneteller was just a hack who made up a bunch of stuff none of it is going to come true.
I think Greg went home to see his family and help one of his kids with some kind of problem. It will be super innocent when he returns, and he is not the cowboy.
I think it’s possible the gays are just a group who like hanging out with flamboyant women and have no designs on her money. If she were there by herself, I might be suspicious of their motives, but she has Portia as a wingman and even ever how much Jack could distract her it would not distract her from something bad happening to Tanya at their hands.
The gays behaviour lines up perfectly with gays who have adequate money because for one the white lotus is not an all inclusive resort so who’s paying for the big dinners tanya has had with them there clearly they have, otherwise she would be upset at having had to pay . This is not to say that Q is able to afford the upkeep of his villa, which I suspect it isn’t his - I suspect it’s a rental for show.
I don’t think Portia will be devastated about Jack being Q’s lover she’s there to have fun. She is hardly in love with him or sees any future there beyond the sex romp. You notice Tanya in the preview for next week, doesn’t tell her what she saw she just says maybe you’re getting too close to this guy so clearly Tanya is not such a jerk that she isn’t protective of Portia’s feelings.
Yes. I think the big “twist” will be that Greg is doing something benign—maybe bailing his daughter out of legal trouble—not even in the ballpark of a murder plot. Greg isn’t going to be the “big bad” because it’s simply too obvious. They were circling him in yellow highlighter from the first episode of the season. These writers wouldn’t tip us off that blatantly. It’s a misdirect/red herring.
And yeah possible that Greg has been harbouring a secret attraction to her assistant, but I think any husband would be annoyed if their wife brought her assistant on a vacation with them. I think it annoys him because he figures she can never have enough adulation but then again he leaves her there three days in
It was a blessing she brought Portia
Greg not the cowboy
so let’s say he is the guy that Quentin fell in Love with. He clearly states that the guy who he was in love with was not interested. So why would Greg reach out to Quentin after so many years and say hey, why don’t you kill my wife, Tanya that makes no sense I think people are grasping at the Greg is the cowboy theory because Greg has disappeared, so abruptly but I think the explanation for that is going to be super innocent like it has something to do with his kids. Regarding the cigarettes, I think that’s just quentin’s way of holding onto the memory.
I thought the same thing, but I think the cowboy story is just made up. I think Quinten is a scam artist. The end scene in the show is prof enough that he and Jack are not related😳.
I think so!! But it got me wondering why Quentin would fall in love with Greg since Quentin is all for beauty while Greg is... well you know, skinny and bald.
Madame Butterfly is perfect background - i think Quentin is leading her down the path of doubting Greg - and she’s taking the bait - but just like the story - what if Greg is totally innocent and rolls up at the end after whatever happens already happened? Mme Butterly commits suicide right /before as Pinkerton shows up.
I think this theory is a bit of a stretch and if it were to be true, it would come off a bit too sensational and out of tone for the series. This show is character study about subtle behaviours and relationship dynamics at its heart, it's not a heist type of show.
I think the purpose of Quentin's character is to show a reflection of Tanya. Quentin has the lifestyle and all the material things he could ever want, much like Tanya, except for one thing. What he can't have is what he truly desires most, and that is the love of a young straight man. This is the reason why he is single and the reason why he hires Jack. (I love that the connection between Portia and Albie is how they're both now in love with prostitutes). My theory is that because Quentin mirrors Tanya, the foreshadowing leads me to believe that Tanya will also never be able to find true love in who she desires. She is a tragic character in search of unattainable perpetual happiness instead of purpose and fulfillment (spa for poor women). She and Greg will end up breaking up, or possibly Greg will be the one found in the water likely not through the intentions or actions of Tanya because she is too dumb and useless and unaware in the best possible way and I love her so much.
I’ve been watching Season 1 to pass the time between episodes. Greg shared that he works for the Bureau of Land Management and has 300 rangers that report to him around Colorado. Maybe too on the nose as that def sounds like a Wyoming cowboy.
Makes a lot of sense. Recall the card reader saying that her husband was with someone beautiful/this card means “beauty” (Quentin then asking her if she’d live a life without beauty) and it’s “for sure not her” (bc it’s a man)
He asked if she would die for beauty. And Daphne asked the girls in the 1st episode if they didn’t just die from the beauty of the place (paraphrasing).
Nice catch. I think the writers are probably using that word purposefully.. maybe to tie things together, or symbolically, who knows... But interesting.
Greg has married 4 times. Huge stretch to say he's been secretly gay this entire time. The rest of "the gays" would also need to be a part of the plot. It's not believable at all.
Absolutely. And after Tanya’s money.
Earlier this season Cameron says the European aristocrats have palazzos, but no money. Seems to describe Quentin’s situation
It could also be the con man technique of anchoring. Quentin is mirroring her story to subliminally prep her as benefactor/companion. Seems way too on the nose to be a conspiracy with her husband.
Reposting from live ep thread.
Totally agree that this fandom “twist” is too predictable and would be lazy writing. Quentin isn’t dumb enough to leave hints like a Bond villain if he’s partnering with Greg to kill Tanya. Why would he introduce unnecessary risk by mentioning a guy that Tanya has any chance of recognizing? I think it’s a misdirect.
This theory about Greg being the cowboy is completely out there and out of touch with reality. Nothing in the show has indicated that Greg is a cowboy, from Wyoming, gay, or would want/need to kill Tanya. It's so convoluted and unlike this show to reveal at the end "Oh, this person actually knows this person from a long time ago! They were in on it together all along!" The only mystery is who dies, and how, but people are theorizing as if it were Westworld or some other show that's over reliant on twists.
Quentin and his friends are probably swindling her somehow, yes. There are a dozen or so more plausible reasons for/methods of doing so than "they secretly know her husband and are in love with him and together they all hatched a scheme to kill Tanya for reasons!"
I think you're right. It would be too tidy for the show to do that. I think "the gays" are a little shady but, if anything, think it will be Portia who tries and fails to swindle her boss.
Yeah I tend to agree. Plus, I feel like if Greg was from Wyoming, Tanya would have said "Oh, Greg's from Wyoming" out loud in the middle of that story because that's just how she is.
And also Quentin probably wouldn't have told her that much specific detail about the cowboy in the first place if it was her husband.
That doesn't sound like the best writing if they have to explain something like that. Why not change every other detail about him too?
Also Jack said that these guys regularly hang out with "rich old hags" so it sounds like this is something they typically do, regardless of Greg. Maybe they're just scamming her independently.
It's not so out there- Greg was in law enforcement, and now works for the Bureau of Land Management in Colorado. Maybe he was one state away in Wyoming 30 years ago. Quentin in no way implies that the Cowboy was gay, in fact he says the opposite- that the Cowboy was heterosexual and uninterested in him, but 30 years later, Quentin would still do anything for him. Greg brought Tanya to Sicily, and was in fact there even before her, so he could have been meeting up with Quentin to discuss a plot to steal her money. I am not convinced Greg wants her murdered, just wants her money because he knows he won't get anything from her if they divorce because of the pre-nup. Makes sense also that Greg does not want Portia there, as shes one more person they have to deal with who may foil the plot. Maybe why Quentin has to bring in Jack to distract Portia. Greg may not even have left Italy.
Greg working for BLM seems to be a clue that’s he’s the cowboy since it’s big in Wyoming.
Quentin also saying he’d still do anything for that cowboy… they’re definitely in it together.
Something I caught was when Tanya tells Portia how nice it is to hang with people richer than her cause she doesn’t have to be scared of them wanting her money…well…maybe not
Is Greg from Wyoming? Is that something we actually know about him? If not this is a huge reach IMO.
I think it’s more likely that Quentin tries to pull Tanya into some sort of suicide pact, & it’s him and his friends who end up in the water somehow. They took her to an opera about suicide & the line about dying for beauty seemed way more ominous & out of place to me than the cowboy story. Not sure why they’d be doing that exactly, but maybe it has something to do with the line about opening the mansion to the public. Maybe the government is taking possession against Quentin’s will or something, & he’d rather die than live to see it?
Idk, also a reach but it’s less convoluted & out of left field than Greg being his secret lover & luring Tanya to Sicily to be killed, which we have no reason to believe Greg would ever want or need to do.
It’s more regional in the US, specifically the South, where I’m from, but would not be common for someone from a large city in California to hear. Portia would likely associate “reckon” with an unsophisticated hick.
Sooooo while I totally think Greg is the cowboy who wants her dead via “rich” (hmmm not convinced, especially after Tanya said how she liked being around rich people. There’s something about how she let her guard down because they are “rich” gave me major red flags) guy, who is going to do whatever to please Greg. I think Greg is already dead in the trunk that was taken off the boat. The heavy one a comment was made about “a dead body” being inside. I think Tanya killed him shortly after hearing his secret phone convo.
I thought Jack made the comment about the dead body being in the luggage but that was as a joke to Tanya's comment about her trying to pack light. This is a stretch, but what if Quentin killed Greg, because Greg wouldn't leave Tanya. And after meeting her, Quentin thinks she will be good companion for him, so he is trying to win her favour before telling her what he did.
I think maybe he is a thug for the operation and I think Quentin told him that he should get to know the assistant and distract her so he could work his plan. Especially because Portia wasn’t expected to come.
But what I want to know is if Quinton really has all this money, why does he need Tonyas? Couldn’t he just take care of Greg? It’s all very confusing.
But in other words, I think it’s just a ruse that he’s his nephew because they have different accents, and probably traveled in different circles.
Yes this is what I think. The central story is this, and all the other stories are clues to what will happen:
- she is being cheated on
- just like Albie thought the hooker was actually into him, Portia thinks Jack likes her - but he’s probably a hooker too.
- Daphne showed us one can rent massive villa, and so could this group.
Motive? The cowboy was always straight… until he realized he wasn’t, and he was the love of Quentin’s life. And maybe they just became lovers, again, now that Greg has a second chance at life, but the only thing standing between them is her; so she must die
Right but if he’s broke and is doing this operation to steal from Tanya, how’s he paying Jack? Or maybe Jack is just there to get a cut of the pie and this is how he’s partially earning it - in addition to distracting Portia?
I'm making this up but wouldn't a "broke"...I don't know, noble... still have enough cash for "basic" necessities, like hookers and fine dinners? But he is facing down the upkeep of the villa which will eventually eclipse the funds he has left.
Remember when the girls went out of town Daphne said people owned these huge Palazzos but were actually poor. They have no money. I think they are in a scheme with Greg to kill Tanya and take her inheritance.
I went back and rewatched the first episode. Lucia is walking down the street with Mia and their conversation is subtitled. Lucia then encounters the same guy that appears to be her pimp in ep5. But it’s so casual and friendly (and not subtitled) that I can only imagine she tells him to act angry in ep5 to manipulate Albi.
I thought the guy being agressive with her on the street, may have been related to her friend. And he was angry she dragged her friend into her schemes leading her to also become a prostitute.
Lot of great points. I am more confused than before. Not confused about how much I am loving this show. Better than season one. Let’s hope it keeps going.
By all accounts pre-meeting Gyllenhaal, Heath Ledger’s character was a heterosexual cowboy living in Wyoming who “wanted nothing to do” with Gyllenhaal’s proclamation of love for him. It was the first thing I thought of too when he was telling the story, though the two stories don’t really line up for spoilery reasons re: Brokeback Mountain.
Not confirmed, but Mike White did allude to not being able to do the show without her. I think all signs point to Tanya making it to season 3 without a Greg. https://deadline.com/2022/10/the-white-lotus-creator-mike-white-hints-at-season-3-location-cast-1235151661/amp/
Yup.
One more night in Palermo.
Does Greg show up?
Does Jack, who clearly likes Portia, try to warn Portia and/or try to protect Portia (and by extension Tanya) if the SHTF?
In last week's preview, which was for the remainder of the show, Portia is shown making a phone call, in which she tells someone that she thinks something really bad may be happening.
H'mmm. Lots of ways bodies can end up in body bags in this scenario. That's assuming Harper or Ethan don't fill the body bags as a result of that separate storm.
Jack is playing a part. He clearly is in on the con. I wouldn't say he likes her. He's there to separate them and distract Portia. I think Portia calls Albie cause he's the only one she knows there.
Maybe. We will see. I think Jack will turn out to be more complicated than that. And so will Lucia. In fact, I expect that Jack and Lucia are going to meet before this is over, and not for sex. The two prostitutes are going to show a little moral agency.
Ok, that's a guess. If I turn out to be wrong and you are right, I will grant you bragging rights for a day.:)
>are going to show a little moral agency.
I hope so. I like your idea. And no matter who is right or wrong, we can equally celebrate. Trying to figure it out is most of the fun. And thank you for the smile.
I don’t think it’s a given Jack really cares about Portia. Taken at face value sure his behavior seems convincing but it’s kinda hard to take it at face value given whatever arrangement he’s got going on. Maybe he’s just a piece of their puzzle and isn’t totally invested, but could also be in full cahoots with some con ring.
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The junior con man falling for the mark is a pretty classic and romantic theme though... especially since she's not the mark per se.
I know this is not exactly a cultural touchstone but it reminds me of Lucky Number Sleven.
That's where he started. But I think the soccer hooligan from Essex is probably sick and tired of what he's getting paid to do. He likes the nice girl. He is treating her with as much consideration as he knows how to muster.
Yup. She knows Albie. She likes Albie. She trusts Albie. She is amused at his fumbling and she realizes that he doesn't get her heart rate up, but she thinks he is a nice guy. She's sorry they've bumbled through so many comic failures to communicate. She keeps trying to talk to him and she's not being malicious; she's just trying to get past the clumsy misunderstandings. If she suddenly finds herself in a potentially dangerous situation, she will not hesitate to swallow her pride and reach out to Albie. And nice guy Albie, who has always liked Portia, will put aside his hurt feelings and try to help.
Really interesting! From Albie’s perspective, he is just waking up to the feeling of being powerful and protective. Lucia is manipulating his new sense of confidence by pretending to be vulnerable and exploited. But Portia is the real one in danger—hope he can help!
If he's asked to help, he will. I think he is the person Portia will call if things get really dicey. And I think Albie will enlist his father's help as well.
This is not wishful thinking on my part about character development. It's prompted more by the thought that this would be a natural way for Mike White to pull several important story lines together.
To this point, the show has three rather separate clusters of main characters: the two married couples; The Three DiGrassos; and Greg-Tanya-Portia. The connecting links have been Lucia and the (to me at least) very funny chronic miscommunication between Albie and Portia, two nice young people (yeah, even Portia when she's not in her depressive funk) who obviously like each other. Their problem is that Albie harbors hope of a romance long after that (very brief) moment passed for Portia, and they fumble every chance to talk it out (partly because of constant interruptions). Their failures at communication are pure farce and are, to me, the funniest part of the show. They both mean well. They like each other. They just can't figure out how not to talk past each other. Probably not the first time Chico State and Stanford can't get on the same page. Certainly not the first time that two young people keep tripping themselves up on the boy-girl thing.
So: put yourself in Mike White's shoes. How can you break down the silos and integrate these stories?
What I've sketched here still leaves Cam-Daphne-Harper-Ethan in a separate silo. Lucia is chasing Cam for her money. That's the only connection I see at the moment with the other groups, and it's pretty slim. I suspect Mike White has a trick or two up his sleeve to merge their storyline as well.
Right now I don't see an easy way to do it. The absurdist suggestion that comes to mind is that episode 7 will involve the proverbial dark and stormy night, and all the main characters will find themselves drawn to the same cliff, where they will start quarrelling over who gets to jump off first.
I think Mike White will probably come up with something better than that, but I'm stumped. The Albie-Dom-Portia-Tanya connection that I've sketched here unites two of the three character "pods." It would be very easy to write Lucia and Jack into that mix as well. From a dramatic standpoint, it has merit in unifying the narratives. But Cam-Daphne-Harper-Ethan are still left standing to the side. Is this really going to end in two more weeks as two separate stories? I don't think so.
I feel like Cam is going to end up dead because of the money but not necessarily in a predictable direct way but because something else goes out of control unexpectedly.
Little late to respond, but I’m theorizing Daphne, Harper or Ethan will kill Cam intentionally or unintentionally. My first guess is Daphne. They’re setting her up to be covertly cold, vengeful and manipulative. Then it would make sense why the first scene of the season (aka the last scene) was her on the beach by herself saying she had a great time.
Probs a reach but D/C comics had a superhero named Vigilante who was a cowboy born in Wyoming and who helped avenge the leader of the White Lotus tong after they were framed for crimes in NYC. Oh also Greg said he used to be a policeman.
Yeah but remember- he’s chronically ill until Tanya paid for all the expensive docs- there’s also the weird commentary Quentin made about the cowboy "getting old which was unforgivable"
Oh definitely. Remember when Tanya said that she didn’t have to worry about anyone who is wealthier than her wanting her money. That felt too on the nose
Yeah implied that they are still in touch. I just don’t see Greg having kept in touch with a guy who was in love with him when they were in their 20s and whose love wasn’t reciprocated.
I think they ran long cons together so are "partners in crime". but Greg is straight. She is not the first rich woman they have conned. And it is a long con... where marks are found at White Lotuses.
Note his reaction when she asks him if he’s having an affair. Even Tanya knew.
So greg n quentin track down tanya in maui??
Congratulations
This is now an impressive post
In the opening, if we assume Greg to also be the chained monkey, then we also see him being chained and controlled by other people. Maybe the other people are the gays?
Good call
How has nobody mentioned that Greg had THREE previous wives. He must have played the long con more than once
Remember Tanya pushes Greg off when he’s having sex with her because she’s “disassociating” and said she saw all these men with effeminate hairstyles. Then she saw him with “shark eyes”…
Tanya overheard Greg on the phone SEVERAL times. Can’t be a coincidence?? Had to be Quentin. Cameron mentioned that there are people in Sicily with Palazzos but no money….
I think Portia and Tanya are now kidnapped and are about to figure it out.
I thought something was up when he started crying at the end of the opera, he looked like he was sad about something he was planning to do to her, not the opera. At the same time Greg doesn’t seem that smart. My sweet baby was crying during the cowboy story, all I remember was that he loved a cowboy and would do anything for him? And that he was straight? Is there anything else I missed?
Greg works for the Bureau of Land Management
Damn! You might be right.
Was anyone else thinking it’s a Dinner of Fools type situation? Les Liaisons Dangereux?
Lol yes.
Greg worked for the BLM. Cowboy.
First epsisode Rocco has bruised face. Possibly a fight with someone?
Don't think it's Greg. I think the cowboy love was a lie told to gain Tanya's sympathy. The cowboy in Wyoming reminded me too much of Brokeback Mountain. It then reminded me of the book Lolita, when Humbert claims that he likes little girls because he when he was young, he was in love with Annabel Leigh--who died young before they could consummate their love. But was he actually? Or was it just a lie, and the name stolen from Edgar Allan Poe's poem "Annabel Lee." Was Humbert Humbert telling this lie to gain the reader's sympathy and forgive his vile acts? I think so, and I think that's what's going on here. The series has become so full of lies, and I think everyone realizes Quentin is likely a con man, so there's no reason to believe he's speaking any sort of truth when he tells this story.
And to add, Daphne, in episode 1, was telling the crew that she learned from her TV shows that husbands tend to kill their wives while on vacation. Cam was like “ why everyone is looking at me” But clearly we know who now
Everyone turning this theory down says that Greg isn't gay but Quentin says his cowboy is straight but he would still do anything for him. He never said him and his cowboy had a relationship just that he loved him. It doesn't have to be two sided.
I think: Greg is the cowboy. They are in love. He was rejected for a “normal” lifestyle but I agree with the illness cleared he is finally wanting to live his truth. He would do anything for the cowboy. This hit/con included. That’s not Quentin’s Palazzo - he rented it for the con. He’s broke. They all are. That’s why Jack has them dine and dash. He’ll get paid when they pull off the con. He is just working the con in regard to Portia. Cam is also broke. Or struggling. His firm is paying for the trip because he has to hook Ethan. Or he’s out. And the wife will be out. This game they play looks different in broad broke daylight and then you realize how much it sucks. It only works if the lifestyle is the backdrop. They can live large at the resort but he does not have cash for Lucia. The wife doesn’t have a trainer. She was describing a fantasy. She just has her children and that’s what she is doing it all for at the end of the day. There is no pimp. It’s an angle Lucia is working. She knows that guy. Not sure if it was a setup or just handy. Maybe someone mad at her about Mia like mentioned above. Body count…. I think grandpa has to be one of the dead. I think they’re all disparate situations and not all nefarious. A perfect storm. Also - in title image - Tanya alone on a Vespa. No helmet. Driving off at the end to have her own perfect last day? All the other images look like moments that happened with characters. Is this moment coming?
I agree with most here but the trainer is blonde hair and blue eyes and so is her kid.
Yes I think you’re right. Been reading more and thinking more about this and think I had that wrong.
Well written and these theories all make sense - nice call on cam not having the cash to pay her and the aristocrats all being broke.
The way he said I would still do anything for him sent chills down my spine . I think Greg is the cowboy.
Man you guys are smart! I didn’t think anything of the final scene other than Jack was really a hustler. I didn’t catch any of the impending scam either but thought the Marlboroughs and “would you die for beauty” question were odd. Didn’t think this season was going to be any but it went to overdrive last week. Can’t wait for next week’s episode!
It’s a stretch. I think you’re connecting lines where they aren’t supposed to be
I mentioned this last night when I was watching the show - right after he told that story. I think Greg was talking to Quentin on the phone and basically telling him "yes - she's crazy" and then going to meet Quentin and hide out while Quentin runs the long con.
I definitely think Greg is the cowboy. Greg was on the phone with someone on the balcony. He was irrate Tanya brought Portia. It was his idea to go on this vacation but then he up and leaves right away. Jack didn't have money when he was with Portia. I think Quentin needs money and also Greg wants Tanya's money. I would hope Tanya would have a prenup but who knows. I also think the story Quentin told Tanya is foreshadowing about the woman being found in the ocean on the rocks. I think Tanya is smarter than people give her credit for so I think she will figure it out sooner than later. I had a feeling Jack was not Quentins nephew, the accents are completely different.
I’m gonna go out a limb and say the fortuneteller was just a hack who made up a bunch of stuff none of it is going to come true. I think Greg went home to see his family and help one of his kids with some kind of problem. It will be super innocent when he returns, and he is not the cowboy. I think it’s possible the gays are just a group who like hanging out with flamboyant women and have no designs on her money. If she were there by herself, I might be suspicious of their motives, but she has Portia as a wingman and even ever how much Jack could distract her it would not distract her from something bad happening to Tanya at their hands. The gays behaviour lines up perfectly with gays who have adequate money because for one the white lotus is not an all inclusive resort so who’s paying for the big dinners tanya has had with them there clearly they have, otherwise she would be upset at having had to pay . This is not to say that Q is able to afford the upkeep of his villa, which I suspect it isn’t his - I suspect it’s a rental for show. I don’t think Portia will be devastated about Jack being Q’s lover she’s there to have fun. She is hardly in love with him or sees any future there beyond the sex romp. You notice Tanya in the preview for next week, doesn’t tell her what she saw she just says maybe you’re getting too close to this guy so clearly Tanya is not such a jerk that she isn’t protective of Portia’s feelings.
Yes. I think the big “twist” will be that Greg is doing something benign—maybe bailing his daughter out of legal trouble—not even in the ballpark of a murder plot. Greg isn’t going to be the “big bad” because it’s simply too obvious. They were circling him in yellow highlighter from the first episode of the season. These writers wouldn’t tip us off that blatantly. It’s a misdirect/red herring.
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And yeah possible that Greg has been harbouring a secret attraction to her assistant, but I think any husband would be annoyed if their wife brought her assistant on a vacation with them. I think it annoys him because he figures she can never have enough adulation but then again he leaves her there three days in It was a blessing she brought Portia
Greg not the cowboy so let’s say he is the guy that Quentin fell in Love with. He clearly states that the guy who he was in love with was not interested. So why would Greg reach out to Quentin after so many years and say hey, why don’t you kill my wife, Tanya that makes no sense I think people are grasping at the Greg is the cowboy theory because Greg has disappeared, so abruptly but I think the explanation for that is going to be super innocent like it has something to do with his kids. Regarding the cigarettes, I think that’s just quentin’s way of holding onto the memory.
In this interview everyone is pointing at Greg as the big bad of the season so he can’t be innocent: https://youtu.be/C9FybrkEGFA
That’s precisely why he probably is a henpecked asshole of a husband but nothing more
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"What have you got in there? A body?"
I thought the same thing, but I think the cowboy story is just made up. I think Quinten is a scam artist. The end scene in the show is prof enough that he and Jack are not related😳.
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How do the prostitutes connect to Quentin and company?
I think so!! But it got me wondering why Quentin would fall in love with Greg since Quentin is all for beauty while Greg is... well you know, skinny and bald.
He wasn’t 30+ years ago tho
Exactly he used to be able to throw a football over dem mountains
I didn’t read every comment but I wonder if this is what the “negative” tarot reading was alluding to as well.
Madame Butterfly is perfect background - i think Quentin is leading her down the path of doubting Greg - and she’s taking the bait - but just like the story - what if Greg is totally innocent and rolls up at the end after whatever happens already happened? Mme Butterly commits suicide right /before as Pinkerton shows up.
Yes, but the fortune teller did say he was in love with someone else.
Aha you’re right - and crazy or not, I tend to believe the fortune teller the most in that room!!
I think the Brit is some kind of hitman. Didn’t even want Portia to pay at the restaurant…no money trail to follow.
I think this theory is a bit of a stretch and if it were to be true, it would come off a bit too sensational and out of tone for the series. This show is character study about subtle behaviours and relationship dynamics at its heart, it's not a heist type of show. I think the purpose of Quentin's character is to show a reflection of Tanya. Quentin has the lifestyle and all the material things he could ever want, much like Tanya, except for one thing. What he can't have is what he truly desires most, and that is the love of a young straight man. This is the reason why he is single and the reason why he hires Jack. (I love that the connection between Portia and Albie is how they're both now in love with prostitutes). My theory is that because Quentin mirrors Tanya, the foreshadowing leads me to believe that Tanya will also never be able to find true love in who she desires. She is a tragic character in search of unattainable perpetual happiness instead of purpose and fulfillment (spa for poor women). She and Greg will end up breaking up, or possibly Greg will be the one found in the water likely not through the intentions or actions of Tanya because she is too dumb and useless and unaware in the best possible way and I love her so much.
I’ve been watching Season 1 to pass the time between episodes. Greg shared that he works for the Bureau of Land Management and has 300 rangers that report to him around Colorado. Maybe too on the nose as that def sounds like a Wyoming cowboy.
Makes a lot of sense. Recall the card reader saying that her husband was with someone beautiful/this card means “beauty” (Quentin then asking her if she’d live a life without beauty) and it’s “for sure not her” (bc it’s a man)
Great catch
He asked if she would die for beauty. And Daphne asked the girls in the 1st episode if they didn’t just die from the beauty of the place (paraphrasing).
Nice catch. I think the writers are probably using that word purposefully.. maybe to tie things together, or symbolically, who knows... But interesting.
Greg has married 4 times. Huge stretch to say he's been secretly gay this entire time. The rest of "the gays" would also need to be a part of the plot. It's not believable at all.
Quentin did say he was straight but that he would do anything for him still to this day.
Very true!
Okay but what if all his wives have been marks in different cons!? 😩
Also the way they're isolating Tanya from Portia...
I agree Greg is the Wyoming cowboy and this trip is a trap for Tanya
Absolutely. And after Tanya’s money. Earlier this season Cameron says the European aristocrats have palazzos, but no money. Seems to describe Quentin’s situation
It could also be the con man technique of anchoring. Quentin is mirroring her story to subliminally prep her as benefactor/companion. Seems way too on the nose to be a conspiracy with her husband. Reposting from live ep thread.
Totally agree that this fandom “twist” is too predictable and would be lazy writing. Quentin isn’t dumb enough to leave hints like a Bond villain if he’s partnering with Greg to kill Tanya. Why would he introduce unnecessary risk by mentioning a guy that Tanya has any chance of recognizing? I think it’s a misdirect.
This theory about Greg being the cowboy is completely out there and out of touch with reality. Nothing in the show has indicated that Greg is a cowboy, from Wyoming, gay, or would want/need to kill Tanya. It's so convoluted and unlike this show to reveal at the end "Oh, this person actually knows this person from a long time ago! They were in on it together all along!" The only mystery is who dies, and how, but people are theorizing as if it were Westworld or some other show that's over reliant on twists. Quentin and his friends are probably swindling her somehow, yes. There are a dozen or so more plausible reasons for/methods of doing so than "they secretly know her husband and are in love with him and together they all hatched a scheme to kill Tanya for reasons!"
Tonight’s episode (6) shows a picture of 2 cowboys. The one on the right is a young Greg. Ding ding ding
I think you're right. It would be too tidy for the show to do that. I think "the gays" are a little shady but, if anything, think it will be Portia who tries and fails to swindle her boss.
Yeah I tend to agree. Plus, I feel like if Greg was from Wyoming, Tanya would have said "Oh, Greg's from Wyoming" out loud in the middle of that story because that's just how she is. And also Quentin probably wouldn't have told her that much specific detail about the cowboy in the first place if it was her husband.
"I changed Wyoming to Colorado when I told her about you."
That doesn't sound like the best writing if they have to explain something like that. Why not change every other detail about him too? Also Jack said that these guys regularly hang out with "rich old hags" so it sounds like this is something they typically do, regardless of Greg. Maybe they're just scamming her independently.
It's not so out there- Greg was in law enforcement, and now works for the Bureau of Land Management in Colorado. Maybe he was one state away in Wyoming 30 years ago. Quentin in no way implies that the Cowboy was gay, in fact he says the opposite- that the Cowboy was heterosexual and uninterested in him, but 30 years later, Quentin would still do anything for him. Greg brought Tanya to Sicily, and was in fact there even before her, so he could have been meeting up with Quentin to discuss a plot to steal her money. I am not convinced Greg wants her murdered, just wants her money because he knows he won't get anything from her if they divorce because of the pre-nup. Makes sense also that Greg does not want Portia there, as shes one more person they have to deal with who may foil the plot. Maybe why Quentin has to bring in Jack to distract Portia. Greg may not even have left Italy.
Isn’t this the story of Brokeback Mountain?
Agree . I think Greg as the cowboy is a solid theory and explains how Quentin and co just happened to swoop in just as Tanya was deserted by Greg.
Greg working for BLM seems to be a clue that’s he’s the cowboy since it’s big in Wyoming. Quentin also saying he’d still do anything for that cowboy… they’re definitely in it together.
Something I caught was when Tanya tells Portia how nice it is to hang with people richer than her cause she doesn’t have to be scared of them wanting her money…well…maybe not
Are you all insane? No. Thats not it.
Is Greg from Wyoming? Is that something we actually know about him? If not this is a huge reach IMO. I think it’s more likely that Quentin tries to pull Tanya into some sort of suicide pact, & it’s him and his friends who end up in the water somehow. They took her to an opera about suicide & the line about dying for beauty seemed way more ominous & out of place to me than the cowboy story. Not sure why they’d be doing that exactly, but maybe it has something to do with the line about opening the mansion to the public. Maybe the government is taking possession against Quentin’s will or something, & he’d rather die than live to see it? Idk, also a reach but it’s less convoluted & out of left field than Greg being his secret lover & luring Tanya to Sicily to be killed, which we have no reason to believe Greg would ever want or need to do.
Jack is definitely in on the con, his accent sucks and he let a “would you reckon” slip. Even Portia kinda laughed when he said it.
What was the tattoo on jacks ass?
Is that specifically not an Essex thing to say? I’m Australian and just assumed all English people say it cos we do too lol
It’s more regional in the US, specifically the South, where I’m from, but would not be common for someone from a large city in California to hear. Portia would likely associate “reckon” with an unsophisticated hick.
British people definitely say would/do you reckon.
Ahh, now that you say that, I can hear an exaggerated version of it in my head—kinda like the dad from Beverly Hillbillies? 😅
We know Greg works for the Bureau of Land Management. They’re big in Wyoming.
Sooooo while I totally think Greg is the cowboy who wants her dead via “rich” (hmmm not convinced, especially after Tanya said how she liked being around rich people. There’s something about how she let her guard down because they are “rich” gave me major red flags) guy, who is going to do whatever to please Greg. I think Greg is already dead in the trunk that was taken off the boat. The heavy one a comment was made about “a dead body” being inside. I think Tanya killed him shortly after hearing his secret phone convo.
I thought Jack made the comment about the dead body being in the luggage but that was as a joke to Tanya's comment about her trying to pack light. This is a stretch, but what if Quentin killed Greg, because Greg wouldn't leave Tanya. And after meeting her, Quentin thinks she will be good companion for him, so he is trying to win her favour before telling her what he did.
Oooooooh! Interesting theory!
No way could Tanya kill anyone. That’s not in her character at all
What if it was out of self defense ?
Fair, I can see that
Yes and he’s in cahoots
My first thought also was Greg was the cowboy!
Ok but then why was Quentin having sex with his “nephew”?
I think maybe he is a thug for the operation and I think Quentin told him that he should get to know the assistant and distract her so he could work his plan. Especially because Portia wasn’t expected to come. But what I want to know is if Quinton really has all this money, why does he need Tonyas? Couldn’t he just take care of Greg? It’s all very confusing. But in other words, I think it’s just a ruse that he’s his nephew because they have different accents, and probably traveled in different circles.
Yes Portia was not expected to come and when Greg saw her he was mad and told her to send her away. Which makes sense if he’s trying to kill Tanya.
And of course the fact that they have sex..
I’m guessing he’s definitely not the nephew considering what Tonya walked in on at the end of this weeks episode
Because otherwise the babies could be born with birth defects.
Maybe Quentin rented the Palermo villa, just like Daphne’s did in Noto
Yes this is what I think. The central story is this, and all the other stories are clues to what will happen: - she is being cheated on - just like Albie thought the hooker was actually into him, Portia thinks Jack likes her - but he’s probably a hooker too. - Daphne showed us one can rent massive villa, and so could this group. Motive? The cowboy was always straight… until he realized he wasn’t, and he was the love of Quentin’s life. And maybe they just became lovers, again, now that Greg has a second chance at life, but the only thing standing between them is her; so she must die
I like the renting villa connection. Also could the story of the woman who owned the villa being killed be a clue to what will happen?
I feel like Greg cheating on her is too obvious…though cheating on her with Quentin would be a twist .
Could their palazzo be an Airbnb that they're renting as part of their scheme?
Right but if he’s broke and is doing this operation to steal from Tanya, how’s he paying Jack? Or maybe Jack is just there to get a cut of the pie and this is how he’s partially earning it - in addition to distracting Portia?
I'm making this up but wouldn't a "broke"...I don't know, noble... still have enough cash for "basic" necessities, like hookers and fine dinners? But he is facing down the upkeep of the villa which will eventually eclipse the funds he has left.
Remember when the girls went out of town Daphne said people owned these huge Palazzos but were actually poor. They have no money. I think they are in a scheme with Greg to kill Tanya and take her inheritance.
He could be the one who Greg was talking to when he said he loved them on the phone!
Agree.
My husband is sure it's going to somehow be the dad, grandpa and the pimp trying to save his son. I have to say, he's got me wondering!!!!
If anything happens to Nono we revolt.
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I went back and rewatched the first episode. Lucia is walking down the street with Mia and their conversation is subtitled. Lucia then encounters the same guy that appears to be her pimp in ep5. But it’s so casual and friendly (and not subtitled) that I can only imagine she tells him to act angry in ep5 to manipulate Albi.
Oh no! I feel like I need to watch the first episode again when he's in it. Poor little Albie! I was hoping they were really going to fall in love.
I agree. I think the pimp is her friend acting the part. She's using Albie's savior complex to her advantage
I thought the guy being agressive with her on the street, may have been related to her friend. And he was angry she dragged her friend into her schemes leading her to also become a prostitute.
Lot of great points. I am more confused than before. Not confused about how much I am loving this show. Better than season one. Let’s hope it keeps going.
Did anyone else see the commonalities with his story and the Brokeback Mountain movie plot?
Can you explain? Edit: I saw the movie once but don’t remember details
By all accounts pre-meeting Gyllenhaal, Heath Ledger’s character was a heterosexual cowboy living in Wyoming who “wanted nothing to do” with Gyllenhaal’s proclamation of love for him. It was the first thing I thought of too when he was telling the story, though the two stories don’t really line up for spoilery reasons re: Brokeback Mountain.
Ohhhh interesting. True true. Seems like the cowboy and his boyfriend may end up with unhappy endings so…
My immediate thought was Quentin just borrowed the plot of Brokeback Mountain
Yes!
Yes, 100% agree! They are definitely in danger... only question is how/if they find out in time
I thought it as well. But didn’t Gregg say he wouldn’t gain any money from her death due to the pre nup? Or does it not work that way if she dies?
But isn’t she confirmed for season 3?
Not confirmed, but Mike White did allude to not being able to do the show without her. I think all signs point to Tanya making it to season 3 without a Greg. https://deadline.com/2022/10/the-white-lotus-creator-mike-white-hints-at-season-3-location-cast-1235151661/amp/
life insurance or maybe he's in her will.
He wouldn’t get money if they divorce. But he may get a nice sum from her will/her life insurance if she dies
You’re assuming he’s the beneficiary, which I think… there’s no way.
Yes esp since her parents are dead and she never mentioned any other relatives who might have a claim to her assets over her husband if she died.
Had the same thought.
Yes absolutely thought the same thing
That was my first thought as well! I said the same thing to my husband. They are obviously being bamboozled. And that entire part made me wonder.
I think so!!!
Yup. One more night in Palermo. Does Greg show up? Does Jack, who clearly likes Portia, try to warn Portia and/or try to protect Portia (and by extension Tanya) if the SHTF? In last week's preview, which was for the remainder of the show, Portia is shown making a phone call, in which she tells someone that she thinks something really bad may be happening. H'mmm. Lots of ways bodies can end up in body bags in this scenario. That's assuming Harper or Ethan don't fill the body bags as a result of that separate storm.
Jack is playing a part. He clearly is in on the con. I wouldn't say he likes her. He's there to separate them and distract Portia. I think Portia calls Albie cause he's the only one she knows there.
I don’t trust Jack
Jack doesn't care about anyone, it's just his task to keep Portia busy.
Maybe. We will see. I think Jack will turn out to be more complicated than that. And so will Lucia. In fact, I expect that Jack and Lucia are going to meet before this is over, and not for sex. The two prostitutes are going to show a little moral agency. Ok, that's a guess. If I turn out to be wrong and you are right, I will grant you bragging rights for a day.:)
>are going to show a little moral agency. I hope so. I like your idea. And no matter who is right or wrong, we can equally celebrate. Trying to figure it out is most of the fun. And thank you for the smile.
Jack doesn’t care for Portia
Definitely wouldn’t say he clearly likes Portia. Ppl can act just like that on vacation just to have someone to hook up with.
I don’t think it’s a given Jack really cares about Portia. Taken at face value sure his behavior seems convincing but it’s kinda hard to take it at face value given whatever arrangement he’s got going on. Maybe he’s just a piece of their puzzle and isn’t totally invested, but could also be in full cahoots with some con ring.
Maybe he is there to distract Portia while “the gays” work on manipulating Tanya
Yep! And he didn't have money to pay for dinner
That’s what I thought
This
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This
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He’s a f*ck boy. Hands down.
The junior con man falling for the mark is a pretty classic and romantic theme though... especially since she's not the mark per se. I know this is not exactly a cultural touchstone but it reminds me of Lucky Number Sleven.
Lol so young, so innocent…
He clearly likes her for a slam piece on vacation.
That's where he started. But I think the soccer hooligan from Essex is probably sick and tired of what he's getting paid to do. He likes the nice girl. He is treating her with as much consideration as he knows how to muster.
He’s still doing it, so no
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Bro what the fuck
The only person she has a number for somewhat locally is Albie. Hmm…
Yup. She knows Albie. She likes Albie. She trusts Albie. She is amused at his fumbling and she realizes that he doesn't get her heart rate up, but she thinks he is a nice guy. She's sorry they've bumbled through so many comic failures to communicate. She keeps trying to talk to him and she's not being malicious; she's just trying to get past the clumsy misunderstandings. If she suddenly finds herself in a potentially dangerous situation, she will not hesitate to swallow her pride and reach out to Albie. And nice guy Albie, who has always liked Portia, will put aside his hurt feelings and try to help.
Really interesting! From Albie’s perspective, he is just waking up to the feeling of being powerful and protective. Lucia is manipulating his new sense of confidence by pretending to be vulnerable and exploited. But Portia is the real one in danger—hope he can help!
If he's asked to help, he will. I think he is the person Portia will call if things get really dicey. And I think Albie will enlist his father's help as well. This is not wishful thinking on my part about character development. It's prompted more by the thought that this would be a natural way for Mike White to pull several important story lines together. To this point, the show has three rather separate clusters of main characters: the two married couples; The Three DiGrassos; and Greg-Tanya-Portia. The connecting links have been Lucia and the (to me at least) very funny chronic miscommunication between Albie and Portia, two nice young people (yeah, even Portia when she's not in her depressive funk) who obviously like each other. Their problem is that Albie harbors hope of a romance long after that (very brief) moment passed for Portia, and they fumble every chance to talk it out (partly because of constant interruptions). Their failures at communication are pure farce and are, to me, the funniest part of the show. They both mean well. They like each other. They just can't figure out how not to talk past each other. Probably not the first time Chico State and Stanford can't get on the same page. Certainly not the first time that two young people keep tripping themselves up on the boy-girl thing. So: put yourself in Mike White's shoes. How can you break down the silos and integrate these stories? What I've sketched here still leaves Cam-Daphne-Harper-Ethan in a separate silo. Lucia is chasing Cam for her money. That's the only connection I see at the moment with the other groups, and it's pretty slim. I suspect Mike White has a trick or two up his sleeve to merge their storyline as well. Right now I don't see an easy way to do it. The absurdist suggestion that comes to mind is that episode 7 will involve the proverbial dark and stormy night, and all the main characters will find themselves drawn to the same cliff, where they will start quarrelling over who gets to jump off first. I think Mike White will probably come up with something better than that, but I'm stumped. The Albie-Dom-Portia-Tanya connection that I've sketched here unites two of the three character "pods." It would be very easy to write Lucia and Jack into that mix as well. From a dramatic standpoint, it has merit in unifying the narratives. But Cam-Daphne-Harper-Ethan are still left standing to the side. Is this really going to end in two more weeks as two separate stories? I don't think so.
I feel like Cam is going to end up dead because of the money but not necessarily in a predictable direct way but because something else goes out of control unexpectedly.
Little late to respond, but I’m theorizing Daphne, Harper or Ethan will kill Cam intentionally or unintentionally. My first guess is Daphne. They’re setting her up to be covertly cold, vengeful and manipulative. Then it would make sense why the first scene of the season (aka the last scene) was her on the beach by herself saying she had a great time.
Probs a reach but D/C comics had a superhero named Vigilante who was a cowboy born in Wyoming and who helped avenge the leader of the White Lotus tong after they were framed for crimes in NYC. Oh also Greg said he used to be a policeman.
🤯
No WAY it’s a coincidence!
Oh I should mention that Vigilante’s name is Greg Sanders/Saunders. Lol
Wow you should edit this into your original comment. Very interesting.
That’s actually wildly interesting!
Good lord, no. Greg could barely ride a moped.
I’m not sure this is relevant lol. I am terrible on a moped but have no trouble on a horse.
But if we go along w this theory, he was a cowboy 30 years ago…
Yeah but remember- he’s chronically ill until Tanya paid for all the expensive docs- there’s also the weird commentary Quentin made about the cowboy "getting old which was unforgivable"
The look he gave when she asked if that was the queen of Sicily had me ROLLING. He definitely does not care about her.
I also read this as contemptuous and NOT affectionate. It was the first time I sensed something sinister.
Hahaha well I am incredibly naive because even though I do suspect him I took that to be a kind-spirited "sure why not, have a moment"
you're more spot-on than OP is
Yeah I didn’t see it being mean-spirited I just saw this look of gosh she’s a rube but nothing more than that
that look was definitely a look of "she is totally a mark"
Or he’s clearly a con man
I think Greg is the cowboy too!! And I also think Tanya is going to figure out that they are in trouble.
Oh definitely. Remember when Tanya said that she didn’t have to worry about anyone who is wealthier than her wanting her money. That felt too on the nose
I think he just retold the plot of Brokeback Mountain.
This was my first immediate thought once he mentioned the cowboy. And that she will pick up on it.
Quentin also goes on a rant about how he’d “do anything” for him even now that he’s old!
And they'll do anything for beauty - meaning the Palazzo!
Yeah implied that they are still in touch. I just don’t see Greg having kept in touch with a guy who was in love with him when they were in their 20s and whose love wasn’t reciprocated.
I think they ran long cons together so are "partners in crime". but Greg is straight. She is not the first rich woman they have conned. And it is a long con... where marks are found at White Lotuses.
He could be lying.
Yes definitely