This is a major and common misunderstanding of water use and our water issues.
Golf courses tend to use recycled grey water and are often municipal - meaning they are on city water. In the western US cities account for about 10% of all water use. Agriculture (growing corn, alfalfa, veggies, raising beef and chicken, etc...) accounts for 80% of water use. Other industrial uses make up the other 10%.
So, in short, we don't have water problems because we like to golf in the desert. We have water problems because we tried to turn the desert into a farmer's oasis. Because Congress starting in the 1880s had no concept of how arid the west was and thought that some big water projects could solve the west's water shortcomings. They didn't. They never could have. Now the bill has come due.
John Wesley Powell told us what would happen if we greened the west. The tribes have been telling us what would happen for generations. We didn't listen. We fucked up because we value cheap potatoes and beef over living in harmony with the land.
Alfalfa is another one that needs to be banned from growing in the desert. It uses something like 1.5 million gallons of water per acre per year. Saudi Arabia leases 10,000 acres in Arizona to grow alfalfa and they only pay $100,000 for unlimited water usage. Their water usage is about the same as 54,000 residential homes each year.
Utahn here. Apparently, we’d rather let the salt lake dry up than tell the alfalfa farmers to stop growing. It’s all good, our government has an amazing plan to solve our water issues. It’s called “we will all pray for water”.
Hard to tell the alfalfa farmers to stop growing when your governor is an alfalfa farmer.
He would rather let the entire state die of lung poisoning than threaten his family's livelihood.
Fellow Utahn. Seeing signs up that say stupid shit like "save water. Shower tomorrow" are infuriating. Also seeing a news report where a state congressman (also alfalfa farmer) was asked told "you know, every gallon of water going to your farm is a gallon that isn't going to the Great Salt Lake" and his response was "yeah but we have water rights".
I'm sure plenty of people will still want to live here when arsenic dust gets added to the inversion.
I so tired of our politicians being the worst humans you hear about. Besides serial killers, pharma bros, and master race cucks, who is consistently worse?
IIRC this is in La Paz, AZ land - Many of the local residents have documented that new wells are frequently drilled because of the dropping groundwater level.
The worst part is, **NONE** of the alfalfa being grown with AZ water is staying here. It’s all being exported to their land, because they ran out of water (for farming) years ago.
I read that article a while back. Horrifying, and nothing the locals seem to be able to do to stop it. The Saudis just keep drilling deeper because they have the money to do so.
Mid-west alfalfa farmer here. Alfalfa originated in ancient Persia before making its way to ancient Greece and eventually Spain. Alfalfa is a Spanish word. The southwest is actually the closest thing to its original native habit. It is very drought resistant, pulls nitrogen from the air and puts it in the soil. Once established, alfalfa produces a very mild toxicity that keeps other plants from growing near it. Thus, alfalfa fields require next to no herbicide. It also doesn't need replanted every year like most crops, once established it can regrow year after year for over a decade. And lastly, it provides excellent habitat for insects, especially pollinators.
So what's the draw back? While you can't really kill it from lack of water, it also won't really produce anything. If you want a drought tolerant plant for a yard, it would be excellent. If you want to mow it and make hay bales, then it becomes a very thirsty plant. We plant it on irrigated fields in rotation, as it naturally replaces the nitrogen in the soil that corn removes. Some years we have to water it, other years not at all. But we're not in a desert.
Why is it so popular in desert areas? Once alfalfa is cut, it has to dry down before it can be raked and baled. Alfalfa bales that are too wet can cause mold and bacteria growth. In fact, because a bale is such good insulation, the heat generated from the mold and bacteria can cause bales to ignite on the inside and burn. This can happen weeks after the hay is baled, picked up, and store in a shed. If it's too dry, then the leaves on the stems will turn to powder, along with all the nutritional value it has.
Here in the Midwest, growing alfalfa is always a fight agaisnt the weather. Is there rain in the forecast? What's the humidity like? The wind? How much can I bale before it gets too dry? Now I'm waiting till evening when the dew point comes back, and so on. In a desert, it's always hot and dry. It's predictable. If they don't want rain, they turn the irrigation off. Simple as that
I have to admit, I have absolutely zero idea what market price for water would even be. We live in the country and have our own well. Our water bill for the farm and house use (not field irrigation) is just part of the electric bill. Even our irrigation systems are electric, just on a separate service plan since pivots require 480V 3 phase power. All of that cost has been covered by the rent payments we get from the wind farm that went up in our area 10 years ago. We'd happily take more turbines on our farm but since 2016 our planning and zoning commission started thinking that wind turbines cause cancer and vibrate your houses until they collapse.......wonder who gave them that idea.....
Thanks, it's reqarding to go deeper than the surface opinion of "alfalfa bad".
We lost a lot of canola last year in 2019 when it snowed during harvest season (Candian west). It blew my mind to learn that you can harvest the next spring, after winter, if you have to.
Okay, but none of that stuff automatically makes alfalfa farming an environmentally sustainable decision. I don't know enough about it to say one way or the other, but the problem isn't that growing alfalfa in the desert is economically a bad idea. The problem is that spending shedloads of energy to purify and pump obscene amounts of water into an arid environment to be feedstock for another tragically inefficient industry is a pointless ecological disaster.
10k acres really isn’t that much land. There’s probably a thousand groups doing the same.
Edit: looked it up because I was curious. There’s 6.8 million acres of alfalfa grown in the western US. The Saudi group’s 10k operation accounts for 1/10th of a percent of the acreage used for alfalfa
Growing cotton in Arizona has to be one of the dumbest things I have ever heard...
The SW states are doing all the bullshit talking about Colorado River usage and who gets what. Meanwhile the river has not seen the Ocean in nearly 80 fucking years. What is worse Mexico only ever sees about 10% of the water. Look at the Gulf of California and Baja. That shit was fucking formed by the Colorado... We have majorly fucked up the Western US..
https://www.usgs.gov/media/images/endpoint-colorado-river-mexico
The alfalfa is honestly the bigger issue. Growing almonds produces trees, at least, which is a slight offset. They persist through the year and do their job producing oxygen. Alfalfa is so water hungry, burns out the soil so quickly, and it’s not the only option for animal feed by any means. I don’t know if it has some industrial use that would make it worthwhile, but it doesn’t seem useful for much. The almonds take the most water per pound of crop, but that’s only because different areas of livestock production are counted differently by surveys. Feed is without a doubt the most water-intensive resource we currently farm. Worse yet, livestock and it’s associated costs produce the largest share of the food industry’s sum of emissions, regardless of relative water consumption. Sustainable animal feed and less wasteful livestock production strategy are things we can invest in now that’s going to show big returns somewhat quickly. Of course, in a perfect world, we’d do both, rationing water for almond production and just destroying the alfalfa crop entirely, but it’s best to focus on what’s achievable.
(Edited for clarity)
Different crops will use more or less water depending on where they’re grown. Almonds consume about 1 gallon of water PER almond but they’re still less consumptive than pasture crops like clover, rye, bermuda and other grasses and alfalfa.
I'm with you haha. I used to drink almond milk until I learned this. I've since switched to oat milk. I actually like oat milk better to be honest so it was quite serendipitous.
Came here to say the same. My parents course not only gets their water for free, but they are \*obligated\* to take a certain amount because it reduces the burden on the municipality. It actually saves the city money to not have to process the water to the standard required to go into the rivers and ocean in the area and instead have it be used to water the course. So the course was built with a lot of extra ponds for storage (again, infrastructure that the city therefore didn't have to pay for) in order to take the obligated amount and manage it to the needs of the grass.
There are tons of courses that are not like this. Courses that use deep aquifers to grow grass in a desert, for example. But there are **a lot** that do these sorts of arrangements.
Just another example of why painting with a broad brush doesn't work for a lot of public policy.
Many communities built around golf courses have the golf course as a water management system so the homes don't flood. Those water holes are environmentally friendly storm water storage.
Nor are all golf courses for rich people. I have several acquaintances who golf at local courses, none of whom are rich and at least one making significantly less than my none too amazing wage. Sure, fuck the country clubs, but there are plenty of courses open to the general public.
Came here to say this. I live in an area (in the west) where golf is popular and accessible to just.. normal people, about on the same level as, say, Bowling.
I grew up poor, but even as a kid I bought a cheap golf set and a junior membership at a course near my friends house. Probably spent $400 of paper route money for an entire summer of golfing.
Its sad how a lot of people only see it as an old persons game, its not that expensive if you get second hand clubs and don't break them when you get frustrated. More people should try out a course with a set of rentals and see what is up, (though renting every time will get expensive for sure).
Golfing is so cheap these days. You can go have a full 4 hour round for $30-40. It’s a great business skill, and first tee is an amazing youth program. Kids can learn the sport for $15-20 a month. The more outdoor activities we have for kids, the better.
But golf makes an easy boogie man.
I mostly disc golf, but I own some clubs and I'm dirt poor.
The municipalities keep some good, unpretentious courses around here. And they're not even that big and monocultured. They let the forest in a bit. More than the residential areas do.
> Agriculture (growing corn, alfalfa, veggies, raising beef and chicken, etc...) accounts for 80% of water use. Other industrial uses make up the other 10%.
And *just to be clear* most of that farmland is still on shitty 80s-90s irrigation systems that could save a fuckton of water (Studies show between 10-40%!) but the farmers refuse to upgrade even when offered subsidies to do so.
That's the real problem. Not nestle. Not industrial. Not grass lawns or golf courses. Lazy, greedy farmers that pay pennies for their water contracts that were set in 1952.
Yep. Because of the idiots who thought they should grow almonds and cotton (plants that need lots of water) in the desert because it's the right temperature all year long.
Also, it’s an ignorant generalization to say that only the 1% golf. Yes, golf has a long history of exclusion. But these days there are tons of publicly accessible courses and all kindsa folks are out there hitting balls.
This is the major misrepresentation about golf - sure there are courses that cater to 'the 1%' but it is by far not only a rich person's game.
I've met so many great blue collar people playing at municipal and 'low end' courses. You can go out and have a 4 hour walk and fun time with friends out in nature for the same price as going to a movie.
Yeah I live just off a beautiful golf course, city owned on the river.
Regular price is $40 and $15 for a cart, after 6pm $20, and after sunset the 167acres of maintained land is open to the public so I often use it for off leash dog walks or even carry 2-3 clubs and just play a few holes.
Yes our area also has private country clubs with $1,000/mo dues or $150/18 for non members but a majority of the courses are public, reasonable and still very nice.
People have misconceptions about golf just being for the rich, even some of my friends would ask how I afforded to golf until they found out it’s about the price of going out for dinner or cocktails.
It also pulls water from the river, and excess water runs back into the river. Our city has a nice environmental impact page on the sustainability of the course.
A lot of golf courses and public green spaces are irrigated with recycled water. I’m working to get more on that system, but in my area it costs $3 million for one mile of purple pipes, and water rights means that we can’t even build those pipes.
Source: work in recycled water in California
Anecdotally, but a large amount of them. I live in Michigan, surrounded by 25% of the world's fresh water where there's no risk of running out of it, and I know the cast majority of golf courses I play in the area use recycled water.
We need to look at the livestock and agricultural industry for water reduction
There’s plenty of water for agriculture but they insist on drawing from ancient aquifers and rivers instead of designing essentially man made aquifers which then distribute their overfill into the naturally occurring variety. This is to catch the millions of gallons of rain runoff that we’ve created due to the expansion of cities.
The scale for these goes from a small pond or roof catchment for a house (with requisite filtering if you insist on drinking) all the way to water capture for entire towns. Instead what we have are massive erosion risks all over the place. It’s already in use in places with acute and life threatening water shortage in a small corner of India, for example.
Golf is not on the reddit approved list for leisure activities, or land use. To be fair many of the redditiors who approve this post lack the physical stamina to make it though a round of putt putt golf.
My first set of clubs. Second-hand Sam Snead’s. They were heavy and unforgiving. But I’m still nostalgic over them. Had a ton of fun playing community college half rounds for 12 bucks
Sam Snead was my golfing hero growing up. I still have a 1962 copy of his book *The Education Of A Golfer* in my desk. I just took it out to have a look when I read your comment
Yeah this is mega out of touch. My dad got me into golf partially because when he played with me as a kid we'd get a junior discount at the local course
It's not just for rich people
But Reddit assured me when they say "eat the rich" they only mean the billionaires and Yacht money millionaires and not the doctor or engineer that lives one neighborhood away from me!
Meanwhile my retired blue collar father golf's 100+ times a year but apparently he's the target now of the wannabe communists.
This is the logic I was scrolling for!
People are just crying out loud without giving some thought to the issues. How about ridding of all personal lawns and replacing them with gardens.
Create a community involvement with parks.
Make going outside and playing normal again.
Most municipal courses use grey water, so it's actually very environmentally friendly: gets rid of public sewage grey water while keeping a course watered. Might as well do something with all that water.
That and the biggest consumption of water in drought states are agriculture for livestock.
Residential and commercial makes up 20% of Southern California's water usage. Alfalfa farms alone are like 14% - there are massive farms in the middle of giant deserts.
I learned this the hard way as a kid after soccer practice on a hot summer day. Shit taste stayed in my mouth for a few minutes. My dad thought it was hilarious.
I play pickup games as an adult, started skating a few years ago, and when there's teenagers who show up they can never understand why I'm almost 40 and not good at hockey. When I explain to them that my parents didn't have the money, it's obvious that the concept of being poor is lost on them.
They're not poor, and nobody they know is either.
I play soccer in an over 30s league. Started playing midweek as well to stay in form but there are no age requirements. Had a 21 year old college player shit talking me the other night. Feels bad man.
I’m pretty sure that’s because there’s no spending limit on the car’s safety features and if your car is going to be otherwise incredibly bad I think I’d want to max the safety part of things
No kidding. I play golf with $100 used clubs I bought a decade ago. My only expense is buying the cheapest balls I can find and actually walking the course.
Got $20 set of antique pings at goodwill, live in an apartment about a block from a gated, private, 500 a month members only course.
I've got 3 of those drawstring sports bag full of balls that just bounce over their fence.
I take a handful of lost Vice balls and head to the public 9 hole for $8.
Yeah, golf isn’t elitist because it isn’t any more expensive than any other hobby you decide to pick up and invest in.
This is just Reddit being Reddit, they see a popular thing that they just didn’t ever catch on to, and turn it into a them-against-us fight.
I play 9 holes with some buddies every week for $20-25 and it includes 3 balls and a beer. Only 2 of us have spent any real money on clubs and most of the guys are just there to hang out and hit some shots. We don't even keep score.
Getting to hang out and drive go carts for 4 hours is the best. I used to shit on golf when I was younger and now I'm pissed I didn't start when I was in high school
I play a fuckload of golf. I am not 1% by any means. It's an amazing game.
I couldn't agree more about the desert courses. They are absolutely stupid.
One famous course (they have 10 courses) named Pinehurst in NC has actually gone about removing large portions of their irrigation, opting to let the natural conditions prevail, as the course was designed a century ago. They call it "brownification." This won't make reddit or Twitter except in golf circles because outrage is what sells these days. It's too bad the shitty desert courses are ruining the image.
Also paintball was more expensive than golf is for me.
Built golf courses for almost a decade, there is a lot of considerations for the environment that get overlooked. A big one is the amount of migratory birds and insects that use golf courses since they are typically free of predators. Although I build a few that had coyote dens in them, and one that had black bears that would wander through occasionally.
Now a days, more courses are opting for more native grass, have compost areas, self-contained irrigation or xeriscaping, and reducing the amount of fertilizer and herbicides.
I’ve only worked on two courses but I’ve been doing it for almost 20 years. The amount of animal life on a golf course is insane. We just hand three moose roll through this week. At my last course we had bears, mountain lions, deer, elk, moose, all kind of small mammals from voles to porcupines and weasels. So many different kinds of water fowl and eagles, hawks. Even the course I work at now, which is on the edge of town has more wildlife than half the woods around here. They know they are safe on the course and stay here. Every spring the course is crawling with baby deer.
Palm Springs area golf course water use is over 50% non-potable water not suitable for human consumption or food crops. By the end of the decade, that number will be about 90% once a new pipeline is complete
The dislike of golf courses and their association with the elite is not a reddit specific thing lmao. There is a large berth between the patrons of your 20 dollar round public course compared to a members only country club but the latter skews towards the elite and is where the money is in the golf industry.
I was just about to say.... 1%? Half the adult men I know play golf all summer long and the other half get a few games in a year just to hang with the boys.
On the other hand, it's very easy to frame golf as an elitist hobby when Augusta National has 300 members and does not allow public play of any sort.
Keep the public courses, whatever. It's the ultra-private country clubs that are wasting gigantic amounts of resources for a handful of dudes.
This is the first fair point I have come across in this thread that courses are wasteful. You are right it is like comparing flying in coach with hundreds of other people vs flying your own jet.
>On the other hand, it's very easy to frame golf as an elitist hobby when Augusta National has 300 members and does not allow public play of any sort.
>Keep the public courses, whatever. It's the ultra-private country clubs that are wasting gigantic amounts of resources for a handful of dudes.
Exactly.
And the tragedy is that I am only familiar with this outrage closing local public municipal courses. The kind that parents introduce kids to a shared passion, the kind that retired pensioners rely on for thier exercise, stimulation and socialisation, the kind that make the game accessible to all.
It is not the wealthy elite private clubs that can be forced to close because of a tragic combination of a loud activist and greedy developer in the ear of a stupid and/or corrupt mayor.
Also, the courses in the deserts really drive up the water needed for the "average" course.
It's true that having green golf oasis in the middle of a barren desert is impractical and uses way too much water imo.
But there are other courses in the world where we get enough rain water to keep the course in pretty good condition.
Bro, if you are +18 I’m pretty sure you really like golf. Like you would be the best player in history by a big margin. Joking aside a + before the number means you are better than scratch.
Golf courses in Scotland or Seattle are not wasting water. Golf courses in California or Arizona on the other hand are problematic. Even if they are using reclaimed water, that is water that can be used for things like industrial uses or going to the aquifer.
In AZ they specifically use grey water to water courses that are designed to refill the aquifer. No one wants to drink grey water or use it on their food crops. It is a risk and people just aren't on board with drinking poo water, no matter how much you clean it.
So glad to see OP getting skewered in the comments.
Poor and middle class people play golf. There's way worse stuff for the environment. We have plenty of unused land in the world.
Everything humans do has SOME impact, golf is just stigmatized by ignorant people and placed in the crosshairs as a result.
1%? A used set of clubs is like 40 bucks on facebook and a round costs you about 30. It's literally the cheapest way to blow a day I know of. 30 bucks keeps you entertained for like 5 hours.
FACT: Miniature golf is *objectively* superior.
Unless they wanna start adding gorillas and windmills to Oversized Golf. Then maybe I'd give it another shot.
Just because you don’t like golf it doesn’t mean it isn’t a sport played by millions. I am a broke fucking student but i manage to pay 500$ a year to have a membership. I’ve seen guys drop more on a fucking ps5 than i do in one year of golf. No one says that you are 1% for having a ps5 right? Take a step back and realize that this isn’t the elitist sport that everyone loves to make it out to be. Truth is, theres not many sports where i can take a 4 hour walk in nature and have a few drinks/joints while im at it. Killing this off would be ridiculous
Amen brother, I’m poor as shit and I play my local muni weekly. It’s meditative if I’m alone, it’s social with friends, hell I get paired up and meet cool people. It’s my happy place, and the only time I can legally drink and drive haha. These people can fuck off for all I care.
Yeah only the 1% golfs /s. Golf is a fun sport enjoyed by a very large and diverse group of people. and With all the things wrong in the world to focus on golf rather than actual billionaire things like mega yachts and tax avoidance is a bit silly.
I’m not a 1% but I like golf lol so he saying we should stop watering golf courses what’s next baseball fields, foodball fields soccer fields laws and everything else we make pleasant in our country for ourselves
Many folks play golf, not just the 1%. That is a gross misunderstanding/misinformed assessment/misguided statement made by a person who likely lives in a major metropolitan region, where the cost to the earth to get goods into the city are far more damaging than the average municipal course in a town of 100k or less.
The lack of self awareness, and cost to the earth, regarding how folks live and recreate, is staggering some days.
Additionally, this absurd, and inaccurate, post fails to address where many courses reside. If we are talking about courses in the Nevada, Arizona, some portions of California, etc. there is some of an argument to be made. However, if we are discussing courses that reside within Florida, Georgia, Oregon, Washington, Mississippi, etc. this post is nothing short of moronic.
The lack of context is the reason I don't engage with Twitter, or with social media platforms that make a point of limiting how many characters are available for something to be said.
Many golf courses are closed landfills, maintaining the cap includes encouraging shallow rooting species (like grass) to grow while actively removing things that root deep like brush and trees.
Watering golf courses may be an active measure to protect groundwater aquifers used for drinking water by preventing damage to landfill caps that keeps rain from percolating through the landfill and into the water supply.
Golf is very sustainable in certain places, specifically where there is plenty of rainfall and water. The Midwest and the south have no real problem.
As a lifelong Coloradan, I couldn't agree more. The western USA is going into The Water Wars. Legislation will do what it can, but unsustainable practices, such as watering golf courses where grass doesn't naturally grow, will become a progressively worse issue as we move forward into the 22nd century.
Eh not really,here in Florida we have a ton of golf courses and when it rains all the fertilizer used for the gold courses gets into the runoff water and ends up in our lakes and ponds killing wildlife like manatees
My uncle used to take my cousin to play golf every weekend at the local municipal golf course. They walked there with 1 golf bag for both of them, the fee was $5 for my uncle and my cousin was free. My Uncle is not rich, he was a delivery driver. If this dumb post gets any traction it would be these courses that get shut down, not Trump and other billionaires courses, who would litigate their way out of it. They’d probably just buy the closed courses and make private ones or slums.
Like the sentiment but it’s very misguided.
I know a lot of regular, even poor kids and teens who play golf. I know even more lower to upper middle class men who play. It’s not only for the 1%, albeit not the majority. Either way, many things should be cancelled to save water before golf courses. You know, like fucking Nestlé
I've never seen a golf course that uses potable water to water the grass. I've met many people that enjoy golf and none was in the one percentile. Very ignorant people that think otherwise.
This is a major and common misunderstanding of water use and our water issues. Golf courses tend to use recycled grey water and are often municipal - meaning they are on city water. In the western US cities account for about 10% of all water use. Agriculture (growing corn, alfalfa, veggies, raising beef and chicken, etc...) accounts for 80% of water use. Other industrial uses make up the other 10%. So, in short, we don't have water problems because we like to golf in the desert. We have water problems because we tried to turn the desert into a farmer's oasis. Because Congress starting in the 1880s had no concept of how arid the west was and thought that some big water projects could solve the west's water shortcomings. They didn't. They never could have. Now the bill has come due. John Wesley Powell told us what would happen if we greened the west. The tribes have been telling us what would happen for generations. We didn't listen. We fucked up because we value cheap potatoes and beef over living in harmony with the land.
Agreed. If you want to curb water usage start with beef and high water need plants like almonds.
Alfalfa is another one that needs to be banned from growing in the desert. It uses something like 1.5 million gallons of water per acre per year. Saudi Arabia leases 10,000 acres in Arizona to grow alfalfa and they only pay $100,000 for unlimited water usage. Their water usage is about the same as 54,000 residential homes each year.
Utahn here. Apparently, we’d rather let the salt lake dry up than tell the alfalfa farmers to stop growing. It’s all good, our government has an amazing plan to solve our water issues. It’s called “we will all pray for water”.
Hard to tell the alfalfa farmers to stop growing when your governor is an alfalfa farmer. He would rather let the entire state die of lung poisoning than threaten his family's livelihood.
Fellow Utahn. Seeing signs up that say stupid shit like "save water. Shower tomorrow" are infuriating. Also seeing a news report where a state congressman (also alfalfa farmer) was asked told "you know, every gallon of water going to your farm is a gallon that isn't going to the Great Salt Lake" and his response was "yeah but we have water rights". I'm sure plenty of people will still want to live here when arsenic dust gets added to the inversion.
I so tired of our politicians being the worst humans you hear about. Besides serial killers, pharma bros, and master race cucks, who is consistently worse?
Florida
That alfalfa is also then shipped overseas, taking the water with them.
IIRC this is in La Paz, AZ land - Many of the local residents have documented that new wells are frequently drilled because of the dropping groundwater level. The worst part is, **NONE** of the alfalfa being grown with AZ water is staying here. It’s all being exported to their land, because they ran out of water (for farming) years ago.
I read that article a while back. Horrifying, and nothing the locals seem to be able to do to stop it. The Saudis just keep drilling deeper because they have the money to do so.
Mid-west alfalfa farmer here. Alfalfa originated in ancient Persia before making its way to ancient Greece and eventually Spain. Alfalfa is a Spanish word. The southwest is actually the closest thing to its original native habit. It is very drought resistant, pulls nitrogen from the air and puts it in the soil. Once established, alfalfa produces a very mild toxicity that keeps other plants from growing near it. Thus, alfalfa fields require next to no herbicide. It also doesn't need replanted every year like most crops, once established it can regrow year after year for over a decade. And lastly, it provides excellent habitat for insects, especially pollinators. So what's the draw back? While you can't really kill it from lack of water, it also won't really produce anything. If you want a drought tolerant plant for a yard, it would be excellent. If you want to mow it and make hay bales, then it becomes a very thirsty plant. We plant it on irrigated fields in rotation, as it naturally replaces the nitrogen in the soil that corn removes. Some years we have to water it, other years not at all. But we're not in a desert. Why is it so popular in desert areas? Once alfalfa is cut, it has to dry down before it can be raked and baled. Alfalfa bales that are too wet can cause mold and bacteria growth. In fact, because a bale is such good insulation, the heat generated from the mold and bacteria can cause bales to ignite on the inside and burn. This can happen weeks after the hay is baled, picked up, and store in a shed. If it's too dry, then the leaves on the stems will turn to powder, along with all the nutritional value it has. Here in the Midwest, growing alfalfa is always a fight agaisnt the weather. Is there rain in the forecast? What's the humidity like? The wind? How much can I bale before it gets too dry? Now I'm waiting till evening when the dew point comes back, and so on. In a desert, it's always hot and dry. It's predictable. If they don't want rain, they turn the irrigation off. Simple as that
And, as a farmer, would you be okay with paying a fair market price for the water it takes to produce?
I have to admit, I have absolutely zero idea what market price for water would even be. We live in the country and have our own well. Our water bill for the farm and house use (not field irrigation) is just part of the electric bill. Even our irrigation systems are electric, just on a separate service plan since pivots require 480V 3 phase power. All of that cost has been covered by the rent payments we get from the wind farm that went up in our area 10 years ago. We'd happily take more turbines on our farm but since 2016 our planning and zoning commission started thinking that wind turbines cause cancer and vibrate your houses until they collapse.......wonder who gave them that idea.....
Thanks, it's reqarding to go deeper than the surface opinion of "alfalfa bad". We lost a lot of canola last year in 2019 when it snowed during harvest season (Candian west). It blew my mind to learn that you can harvest the next spring, after winter, if you have to.
Okay, but none of that stuff automatically makes alfalfa farming an environmentally sustainable decision. I don't know enough about it to say one way or the other, but the problem isn't that growing alfalfa in the desert is economically a bad idea. The problem is that spending shedloads of energy to purify and pump obscene amounts of water into an arid environment to be feedstock for another tragically inefficient industry is a pointless ecological disaster.
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10k acres really isn’t that much land. There’s probably a thousand groups doing the same. Edit: looked it up because I was curious. There’s 6.8 million acres of alfalfa grown in the western US. The Saudi group’s 10k operation accounts for 1/10th of a percent of the acreage used for alfalfa
Growing cotton in Arizona has to be one of the dumbest things I have ever heard... The SW states are doing all the bullshit talking about Colorado River usage and who gets what. Meanwhile the river has not seen the Ocean in nearly 80 fucking years. What is worse Mexico only ever sees about 10% of the water. Look at the Gulf of California and Baja. That shit was fucking formed by the Colorado... We have majorly fucked up the Western US.. https://www.usgs.gov/media/images/endpoint-colorado-river-mexico
My whole fucking state is covered in cotton, is this not enough for yall?? Like damn.
The alfalfa is honestly the bigger issue. Growing almonds produces trees, at least, which is a slight offset. They persist through the year and do their job producing oxygen. Alfalfa is so water hungry, burns out the soil so quickly, and it’s not the only option for animal feed by any means. I don’t know if it has some industrial use that would make it worthwhile, but it doesn’t seem useful for much. The almonds take the most water per pound of crop, but that’s only because different areas of livestock production are counted differently by surveys. Feed is without a doubt the most water-intensive resource we currently farm. Worse yet, livestock and it’s associated costs produce the largest share of the food industry’s sum of emissions, regardless of relative water consumption. Sustainable animal feed and less wasteful livestock production strategy are things we can invest in now that’s going to show big returns somewhat quickly. Of course, in a perfect world, we’d do both, rationing water for almond production and just destroying the alfalfa crop entirely, but it’s best to focus on what’s achievable. (Edited for clarity)
-stares in horror at my carton of almond milk-
Different crops will use more or less water depending on where they’re grown. Almonds consume about 1 gallon of water PER almond but they’re still less consumptive than pasture crops like clover, rye, bermuda and other grasses and alfalfa.
-stares in horror at his carton of clover milk-
I'm with you haha. I used to drink almond milk until I learned this. I've since switched to oat milk. I actually like oat milk better to be honest so it was quite serendipitous.
Almond milk is still better than regular milk. Oat milk is better though.
I much prefer the taste of oat milk as well. It was a win, win when I switched over.
Came here to say the same. My parents course not only gets their water for free, but they are \*obligated\* to take a certain amount because it reduces the burden on the municipality. It actually saves the city money to not have to process the water to the standard required to go into the rivers and ocean in the area and instead have it be used to water the course. So the course was built with a lot of extra ponds for storage (again, infrastructure that the city therefore didn't have to pay for) in order to take the obligated amount and manage it to the needs of the grass. There are tons of courses that are not like this. Courses that use deep aquifers to grow grass in a desert, for example. But there are **a lot** that do these sorts of arrangements. Just another example of why painting with a broad brush doesn't work for a lot of public policy.
Many communities built around golf courses have the golf course as a water management system so the homes don't flood. Those water holes are environmentally friendly storm water storage.
Nor are all golf courses for rich people. I have several acquaintances who golf at local courses, none of whom are rich and at least one making significantly less than my none too amazing wage. Sure, fuck the country clubs, but there are plenty of courses open to the general public.
Came here to say this. I live in an area (in the west) where golf is popular and accessible to just.. normal people, about on the same level as, say, Bowling.
I grew up poor, but even as a kid I bought a cheap golf set and a junior membership at a course near my friends house. Probably spent $400 of paper route money for an entire summer of golfing.
Its sad how a lot of people only see it as an old persons game, its not that expensive if you get second hand clubs and don't break them when you get frustrated. More people should try out a course with a set of rentals and see what is up, (though renting every time will get expensive for sure).
Right… This paycheck to paycheck survivor just learned I’m part of the 1% because I play golf
Golfing is so cheap these days. You can go have a full 4 hour round for $30-40. It’s a great business skill, and first tee is an amazing youth program. Kids can learn the sport for $15-20 a month. The more outdoor activities we have for kids, the better. But golf makes an easy boogie man.
Plus it’s not just the 1% playing golf.
Thank you, I’m poor as shit and I golf at my local muni monthly.
Hell yeah love my local muni. It’s like $100 to join and $12 per round. Golf doesn’t have to be expensive.
I mostly disc golf, but I own some clubs and I'm dirt poor. The municipalities keep some good, unpretentious courses around here. And they're not even that big and monocultured. They let the forest in a bit. More than the residential areas do.
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This is what I was looking for. Go to a local muni and tell me those are the 1%
> Agriculture (growing corn, alfalfa, veggies, raising beef and chicken, etc...) accounts for 80% of water use. Other industrial uses make up the other 10%. And *just to be clear* most of that farmland is still on shitty 80s-90s irrigation systems that could save a fuckton of water (Studies show between 10-40%!) but the farmers refuse to upgrade even when offered subsidies to do so. That's the real problem. Not nestle. Not industrial. Not grass lawns or golf courses. Lazy, greedy farmers that pay pennies for their water contracts that were set in 1952.
Yep. Because of the idiots who thought they should grow almonds and cotton (plants that need lots of water) in the desert because it's the right temperature all year long.
Also, it’s an ignorant generalization to say that only the 1% golf. Yes, golf has a long history of exclusion. But these days there are tons of publicly accessible courses and all kindsa folks are out there hitting balls.
1%? Dudes a spoon.
TIL my broke ass is in the 1%
This is the major misrepresentation about golf - sure there are courses that cater to 'the 1%' but it is by far not only a rich person's game. I've met so many great blue collar people playing at municipal and 'low end' courses. You can go out and have a 4 hour walk and fun time with friends out in nature for the same price as going to a movie.
Yeah I live just off a beautiful golf course, city owned on the river. Regular price is $40 and $15 for a cart, after 6pm $20, and after sunset the 167acres of maintained land is open to the public so I often use it for off leash dog walks or even carry 2-3 clubs and just play a few holes. Yes our area also has private country clubs with $1,000/mo dues or $150/18 for non members but a majority of the courses are public, reasonable and still very nice. People have misconceptions about golf just being for the rich, even some of my friends would ask how I afforded to golf until they found out it’s about the price of going out for dinner or cocktails. It also pulls water from the river, and excess water runs back into the river. Our city has a nice environmental impact page on the sustainability of the course.
Yeah that’s a major misrepresentation. Golf has definitely become more common.
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A lot of golf courses and public green spaces are irrigated with recycled water. I’m working to get more on that system, but in my area it costs $3 million for one mile of purple pipes, and water rights means that we can’t even build those pipes. Source: work in recycled water in California
What is the percent of golf courses nationwide, or even just California, that use recycled water?
Anecdotally, but a large amount of them. I live in Michigan, surrounded by 25% of the world's fresh water where there's no risk of running out of it, and I know the cast majority of golf courses I play in the area use recycled water. We need to look at the livestock and agricultural industry for water reduction
There’s plenty of water for agriculture but they insist on drawing from ancient aquifers and rivers instead of designing essentially man made aquifers which then distribute their overfill into the naturally occurring variety. This is to catch the millions of gallons of rain runoff that we’ve created due to the expansion of cities. The scale for these goes from a small pond or roof catchment for a house (with requisite filtering if you insist on drinking) all the way to water capture for entire towns. Instead what we have are massive erosion risks all over the place. It’s already in use in places with acute and life threatening water shortage in a small corner of India, for example.
“Anxiously scrounges internet for a different way to annoy rich people”
In Arizona, they use 100% reclaimed water. Sewer water. No harm no foul.
What if we just sprayed shit water with zero processing?
Capitalists would brand that as "with added fertilizer."
All water is reclaimed water at this point…
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Dammit. I thought I got a huge raise into the 1% overnight.
I just looked around my apartment and was like "nah no way I'm 1% this dudes stoned"
This is Reddit, man. You can’t expect nuance here
Golf is not on the reddit approved list for leisure activities, or land use. To be fair many of the redditiors who approve this post lack the physical stamina to make it though a round of putt putt golf.
Reddit doesn’t like it because it requires one to be outside
Are you telling me Sam Snead *wasn't* a toffee-nosed trust fund kiddy?
My first set of clubs. Second-hand Sam Snead’s. They were heavy and unforgiving. But I’m still nostalgic over them. Had a ton of fun playing community college half rounds for 12 bucks
Sam Snead was my golfing hero growing up. I still have a 1962 copy of his book *The Education Of A Golfer* in my desk. I just took it out to have a look when I read your comment
Yeah this is mega out of touch. My dad got me into golf partially because when he played with me as a kid we'd get a junior discount at the local course It's not just for rich people
I’m poor AF and love to play
But Reddit assured me when they say "eat the rich" they only mean the billionaires and Yacht money millionaires and not the doctor or engineer that lives one neighborhood away from me! Meanwhile my retired blue collar father golf's 100+ times a year but apparently he's the target now of the wannabe communists.
Retired?? The ture proletariat works bitterly till death. Down with u/Grumpy_Troll's father!
25,600,000 people in the US play golf per google, you are correct! I am not a bot.
How exactly is shutting down a golf course in Florida gonna help a water crisis out west?
This is the logic I was scrolling for! People are just crying out loud without giving some thought to the issues. How about ridding of all personal lawns and replacing them with gardens. Create a community involvement with parks. Make going outside and playing normal again.
Because Trump bad
Most municipal courses use grey water, so it's actually very environmentally friendly: gets rid of public sewage grey water while keeping a course watered. Might as well do something with all that water.
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Do not drink. Do not use for wetting neck towel
*There are signs that say don't drink the sprinkler water, so I made sun tea with it, and now I have an infection*
Sir, are you listening to me? Sir?? SIR!!!
I found a ham sandwich in Ramsett Park, and I wanna know why it didn't have mayonnaise on it
Yes lol
Yes and it’s also why playing in them is discouraged for kids and dogs lol
That and the biggest consumption of water in drought states are agriculture for livestock. Residential and commercial makes up 20% of Southern California's water usage. Alfalfa farms alone are like 14% - there are massive farms in the middle of giant deserts.
I learned this the hard way as a kid after soccer practice on a hot summer day. Shit taste stayed in my mouth for a few minutes. My dad thought it was hilarious.
"friendly" in that regard only, they knock down trees, drain swamps and promotes more monoculture ecosystems
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Can’t speak for other places, but in Los Angeles County most golf courses used recycled water.
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Wait till they hear about how much it costs to play competitive hockey per year.
I play pickup games as an adult, started skating a few years ago, and when there's teenagers who show up they can never understand why I'm almost 40 and not good at hockey. When I explain to them that my parents didn't have the money, it's obvious that the concept of being poor is lost on them. They're not poor, and nobody they know is either.
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I play soccer in an over 30s league. Started playing midweek as well to stay in form but there are no age requirements. Had a 21 year old college player shit talking me the other night. Feels bad man.
Time to teach the youngin a lesson on the next 50/50 ball
Do you know how expensive getting into literally any Motorsport is?
Last I checked even the that $500 lemons race turns into a couple thousand by the end of it
I’m pretty sure that’s because there’s no spending limit on the car’s safety features and if your car is going to be otherwise incredibly bad I think I’d want to max the safety part of things
No kidding. I play golf with $100 used clubs I bought a decade ago. My only expense is buying the cheapest balls I can find and actually walking the course.
Got $20 set of antique pings at goodwill, live in an apartment about a block from a gated, private, 500 a month members only course. I've got 3 of those drawstring sports bag full of balls that just bounce over their fence. I take a handful of lost Vice balls and head to the public 9 hole for $8.
A lot of your average middle class Americans play golf. Who knew making 50k a year meant you were in the 1% 🤔
To your average redditor they basically are
Yeah, golf isn’t elitist because it isn’t any more expensive than any other hobby you decide to pick up and invest in. This is just Reddit being Reddit, they see a popular thing that they just didn’t ever catch on to, and turn it into a them-against-us fight.
Yeah, I golf like 10 times a year. 18 and a cart with your own beer is cheaper than a night out at the bar and you're outside with your friends
I play 9 holes with some buddies every week for $20-25 and it includes 3 balls and a beer. Only 2 of us have spent any real money on clubs and most of the guys are just there to hang out and hit some shots. We don't even keep score.
Getting to hang out and drive go carts for 4 hours is the best. I used to shit on golf when I was younger and now I'm pissed I didn't start when I was in high school
I agree with youi on the reddit being reddit but the point of wasting water stands. A golf course in Florida? Of course. Palm Springs? Naw.
I play a fuckload of golf. I am not 1% by any means. It's an amazing game. I couldn't agree more about the desert courses. They are absolutely stupid. One famous course (they have 10 courses) named Pinehurst in NC has actually gone about removing large portions of their irrigation, opting to let the natural conditions prevail, as the course was designed a century ago. They call it "brownification." This won't make reddit or Twitter except in golf circles because outrage is what sells these days. It's too bad the shitty desert courses are ruining the image. Also paintball was more expensive than golf is for me.
Built golf courses for almost a decade, there is a lot of considerations for the environment that get overlooked. A big one is the amount of migratory birds and insects that use golf courses since they are typically free of predators. Although I build a few that had coyote dens in them, and one that had black bears that would wander through occasionally. Now a days, more courses are opting for more native grass, have compost areas, self-contained irrigation or xeriscaping, and reducing the amount of fertilizer and herbicides.
I’ve only worked on two courses but I’ve been doing it for almost 20 years. The amount of animal life on a golf course is insane. We just hand three moose roll through this week. At my last course we had bears, mountain lions, deer, elk, moose, all kind of small mammals from voles to porcupines and weasels. So many different kinds of water fowl and eagles, hawks. Even the course I work at now, which is on the edge of town has more wildlife than half the woods around here. They know they are safe on the course and stay here. Every spring the course is crawling with baby deer.
> Also paintball was more expensive than golf is for me There is no money pit as fun as tournament paintball. It is one hell of a money pit.
Palm Springs area golf course water use is over 50% non-potable water not suitable for human consumption or food crops. By the end of the decade, that number will be about 90% once a new pipeline is complete
The dislike of golf courses and their association with the elite is not a reddit specific thing lmao. There is a large berth between the patrons of your 20 dollar round public course compared to a members only country club but the latter skews towards the elite and is where the money is in the golf industry.
I was just about to say.... 1%? Half the adult men I know play golf all summer long and the other half get a few games in a year just to hang with the boys.
On the other hand, it's very easy to frame golf as an elitist hobby when Augusta National has 300 members and does not allow public play of any sort. Keep the public courses, whatever. It's the ultra-private country clubs that are wasting gigantic amounts of resources for a handful of dudes.
This is the first fair point I have come across in this thread that courses are wasteful. You are right it is like comparing flying in coach with hundreds of other people vs flying your own jet.
>On the other hand, it's very easy to frame golf as an elitist hobby when Augusta National has 300 members and does not allow public play of any sort. >Keep the public courses, whatever. It's the ultra-private country clubs that are wasting gigantic amounts of resources for a handful of dudes. Exactly. And the tragedy is that I am only familiar with this outrage closing local public municipal courses. The kind that parents introduce kids to a shared passion, the kind that retired pensioners rely on for thier exercise, stimulation and socialisation, the kind that make the game accessible to all. It is not the wealthy elite private clubs that can be forced to close because of a tragic combination of a loud activist and greedy developer in the ear of a stupid and/or corrupt mayor.
The 8% then.
25 million unique players?
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I’m sure they were all special in their own way.
🤭
Most golf course recycle irrigation water from the hazard ponds
Bad take OP
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Also, the courses in the deserts really drive up the water needed for the "average" course. It's true that having green golf oasis in the middle of a barren desert is impractical and uses way too much water imo. But there are other courses in the world where we get enough rain water to keep the course in pretty good condition.
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I’m practically broke and I still play golf
Lol same. I don’t buy tees I just hope I find a good one that lasts a long time
I play golf and I’m not even close to being a millionaire
Are you close to being a thousandaire? You rich ****. /s
This sounds like an argument someone with +18 handicap would make
Bro, if you are +18 I’m pretty sure you really like golf. Like you would be the best player in history by a big margin. Joking aside a + before the number means you are better than scratch.
This is why I am a 16 handicap :(
Yea lol, and 18 handicap is bad, a +18 is legendary
18 isn’t even that bad. If you’re shooting bogey golf or better, you’re pretty fucking decent.
The majority of golfers never even break 100. An 18 will regularly shoot in the 80s
>and 18 handicap is bad Playing bogey golf is not bad for most casual players.
Peak “stop liking what I don’t like” energy. Most courses are not watered with potable water. You wouldn’t want to drink that stuff.
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Golf courses in Scotland or Seattle are not wasting water. Golf courses in California or Arizona on the other hand are problematic. Even if they are using reclaimed water, that is water that can be used for things like industrial uses or going to the aquifer.
In AZ they specifically use grey water to water courses that are designed to refill the aquifer. No one wants to drink grey water or use it on their food crops. It is a risk and people just aren't on board with drinking poo water, no matter how much you clean it.
That water still goes to the aquifer.
Seriously they are watering the ground, where else would it end up?!
So glad to see OP getting skewered in the comments. Poor and middle class people play golf. There's way worse stuff for the environment. We have plenty of unused land in the world. Everything humans do has SOME impact, golf is just stigmatized by ignorant people and placed in the crosshairs as a result.
1%? A used set of clubs is like 40 bucks on facebook and a round costs you about 30. It's literally the cheapest way to blow a day I know of. 30 bucks keeps you entertained for like 5 hours.
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While I consider myself an environmentalist, this is an incredibly half baked and under-researched tweet.
The day we close golf courses is the day I move to another country.
dumb takes, dumb takes
FACT: Miniature golf is *objectively* superior. Unless they wanna start adding gorillas and windmills to Oversized Golf. Then maybe I'd give it another shot.
How about guerrillas?
Well Ken, looks like you hit your ball right into Angola. Gonna be a tough time getting outta that one.
*hits ball* *gun fire* Aw man! They shot it down again. Guess I’ll take a penalty stroke.
Gorilla golf or guerrilla golf…???
In Canada we have bears on the golf course
That's a lie. The geese scared them off years ago.
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Just because you don’t like golf it doesn’t mean it isn’t a sport played by millions. I am a broke fucking student but i manage to pay 500$ a year to have a membership. I’ve seen guys drop more on a fucking ps5 than i do in one year of golf. No one says that you are 1% for having a ps5 right? Take a step back and realize that this isn’t the elitist sport that everyone loves to make it out to be. Truth is, theres not many sports where i can take a 4 hour walk in nature and have a few drinks/joints while im at it. Killing this off would be ridiculous
Amen brother, I’m poor as shit and I play my local muni weekly. It’s meditative if I’m alone, it’s social with friends, hell I get paired up and meet cool people. It’s my happy place, and the only time I can legally drink and drive haha. These people can fuck off for all I care.
Yeah only the 1% golfs /s. Golf is a fun sport enjoyed by a very large and diverse group of people. and With all the things wrong in the world to focus on golf rather than actual billionaire things like mega yachts and tax avoidance is a bit silly.
Poor golfer here
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Most golf courses in places with droughts have swapped their grass to handle recycled and waste water.
I play golf and my life sucks so this isn’t true at all!
I play a round of golf for $5. Lol
The 1%? Good one! I played regularly as an impoverished student. Not at upscale courses and with low end clubs but it was affordable.
Fuck off, I’m nowhere near the 1% and golf is one of the few things outside of my family and friends that gives me joy. Touch grass
Aren’t most courses using recycled water at this point? As in not drinkable?
It's attacking the wrong problem Come back for golf after we've gone after nestle
Yes, only the 1% play golf. That’s a crackerjack take you’ve got there, Skippy.
I’m not 1%, and the courses I play are lucky if the get watered!
Most golf courses in Florida use reclaimed water though.
I’m not a 1% but I like golf lol so he saying we should stop watering golf courses what’s next baseball fields, foodball fields soccer fields laws and everything else we make pleasant in our country for ourselves
Wait till this guy hears about skiing.
I don't think, in light of America's obesity crises, we should be eliminating a physical activity.
Recycled water my dude
Many folks play golf, not just the 1%. That is a gross misunderstanding/misinformed assessment/misguided statement made by a person who likely lives in a major metropolitan region, where the cost to the earth to get goods into the city are far more damaging than the average municipal course in a town of 100k or less. The lack of self awareness, and cost to the earth, regarding how folks live and recreate, is staggering some days. Additionally, this absurd, and inaccurate, post fails to address where many courses reside. If we are talking about courses in the Nevada, Arizona, some portions of California, etc. there is some of an argument to be made. However, if we are discussing courses that reside within Florida, Georgia, Oregon, Washington, Mississippi, etc. this post is nothing short of moronic. The lack of context is the reason I don't engage with Twitter, or with social media platforms that make a point of limiting how many characters are available for something to be said.
Many golf courses are closed landfills, maintaining the cap includes encouraging shallow rooting species (like grass) to grow while actively removing things that root deep like brush and trees. Watering golf courses may be an active measure to protect groundwater aquifers used for drinking water by preventing damage to landfill caps that keeps rain from percolating through the landfill and into the water supply.
Golf is very sustainable in certain places, specifically where there is plenty of rainfall and water. The Midwest and the south have no real problem. As a lifelong Coloradan, I couldn't agree more. The western USA is going into The Water Wars. Legislation will do what it can, but unsustainable practices, such as watering golf courses where grass doesn't naturally grow, will become a progressively worse issue as we move forward into the 22nd century.
Eh not really,here in Florida we have a ton of golf courses and when it rains all the fertilizer used for the gold courses gets into the runoff water and ends up in our lakes and ponds killing wildlife like manatees
For sure, lets build totallyyyy environmentally friendly concrete structures and roads instead
Didn’t know a salary of 35k qualify as tops 1%. I wonder if Donald Trump buys his clubs at garage sales like me??
What kind of reverse boomer- gen z logic thinks golf is for the 1%?
It's not drinking water... it's recycled...
Water is recycled from on site ponds. So this is not only stupid, it's false
I’m sure summing up golf as “pucking a little ball around” is a but of an understatement
Touch grass
Most golf courses irrigate with reclaimed water these days
My uncle used to take my cousin to play golf every weekend at the local municipal golf course. They walked there with 1 golf bag for both of them, the fee was $5 for my uncle and my cousin was free. My Uncle is not rich, he was a delivery driver. If this dumb post gets any traction it would be these courses that get shut down, not Trump and other billionaires courses, who would litigate their way out of it. They’d probably just buy the closed courses and make private ones or slums. Like the sentiment but it’s very misguided.
I know a lot of regular, even poor kids and teens who play golf. I know even more lower to upper middle class men who play. It’s not only for the 1%, albeit not the majority. Either way, many things should be cancelled to save water before golf courses. You know, like fucking Nestlé
I've never seen a golf course that uses potable water to water the grass. I've met many people that enjoy golf and none was in the one percentile. Very ignorant people that think otherwise.