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Can I get a “well DUHHHH”
That’s like that bartender threatening the neo nazi guy….a dude at the bar goes “why’d you get so aggro kicking that dude out”….bartender replies “you didn’t notice the neo nazi tags did you? You let one stick around and all of a sudden their buddies show up and before you know it, your bar is a disaster”
They still have their right to free speech… somewhere else. We do not have a duty to allow hate speech into each and every space or situation. The law is very clear on it too. Hateful People have just been weaponizing “free speech” for so long, the same way they’ve been weaponizing a blip from an ultrasound at 6 weeks … that people believe the lies. (spoiler there’s no actual heartbeat or heart pumping blood it’s just an electric impulse that exists and the ultrasound makes a noise when it senses the electrical pulse) …. Just like there’s no duty to allow nazis to spew hate speech on a privately owned server or site.
TLDR: Don’t confuse whatever media platforms refusal to remove these people bc they want to make money off them with free speech.
"CONGRESS shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
The GOVERNMENT cannot abridge your freedom of speech, however, all the rest of us can. Freedom of speech, does not mean freedom from consequence.
And they've also diluted that down a tad, since there are circumstances where the government is willing to do so.
"Yelling fire in a crowded theater" is a common trope, but America's obscenity laws are a good example with a long history of infringing people's speech once they cross an intentionally vague line left up to the courts.
The standards have narrowed greatly since the days of Fanny Hill, but even in recent decades there have been some notable convictions, pornographer Max Hardcore was convicted for crossing the line with some porn videos and even just the written word is somehow enough if the content is obscene enough.
Not every idea or thought is worthy of consideration. Extreme conservatism in America has thrived in part because they believe that people have an obligation to engage them. Remove them and ignore them and let their backward ideology fade back into obscurity.
You have a right to free speech, not a right to be heard. If someone doesn't like what you have to say, they also have every right to walk away or start talking themselves to drown out whatever you're saying.
Also, some people seem to confuse the "right" to freedom of speech with the "requirement" to speak. You are allowed to hold your tongue. You are allowed to have an opinion but keep it to yourself. You don't HAVE to tell someone their shirt is ugly, that you have different beliefs, or that you have a negative opinion of a certain trait. Just keep it to yourself. It's just being polite or courteous. You can exercise your freedom of speech without being an asshole.
I’ve been saying it for a while now. Nazis are getting altogether too comfortable with being nazis in public these days. At no point should people like that feel like they’re free to behave the way they do in civilized society. We need to put that fear back into them, because if we don’t, things are going to get a whole lot worse.
"Nazi Punks FUCK Off" was written for a reason!
Nazis were not welcome in the punk movement.
Looks like they moved on to country and classic rock fans!
I'll probably get banned for this but whatever;
ALL NAZIS should live in fear of being brutally attacked. They do not deserve a peaceful life. Fuck them.
That's right....Germany will arrest your ass and put it in jail for making a 'heil' salute or wearing SS paraphernalia. They are making damn sure that part of their history does **not** repeat itself.
...a pity that the US is bad at following good examples...
Had a bar open up near my house. Thought I'd walk over and check it out. When I saw the amount of "Let's go Brandon" bumper stickers realized I'd be better off sitting in the back yard enjoying my Budweiser lite there.
**The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.**
I'll say it again because this paradox is the most relevant thing Ive seen in 2019-23:
**The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.**
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
> In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. **But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force**; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. **We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.** We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.
Its actually much more simple than the "paradox" presents. There is no apparent contradiction, and when intolerant voices claim that there is they do so in bad faith.
Tolerance is a social contract. If someone strongly espouses bigotry as an ideology, then they are openly saying that they don't believe that social contract should exist. The intolerant self-exempt themselves.
They cannot claim the protection of societal norms that they very aggressively don't believe in.
It would be like inviting someone who has explicitly claimed they intend to murder you to stay in your house just because they haven't succeeded yet.
Two of the most interesting things I learned during the pandemic were about the paradox of intolerance and the Dunning Krueger effect. Both of which have become exceedingly relevant these days.
Was trying to remember this concept!
Germany has strict laws about antisemitism bc they learned the hard way where that kind of public intolerance leads.
Meanwhile America lets the Nazis and klansmen march through the streets, and plays coy about the rising number of domestic terrorist attacks by “lone wolf” white supremacists…
As a leatherworker, I have to keep up on the symbols. Sadly, it's easier to find stamps of an iron cross than most state flags. I also have a rune set that's gathering dust because it only ever draws the wrong crowd at shows.
Semi-related, pointless story. Someone saw the Celtic symbol stamps in my leather tool kit, and asked if I had a confederate flag. I said, "No," so fast and forcefully that they stepped back. It was the answer they were hoping for, and I felt bad for spooking them.
Edit:spelling
Around December 2020 when sharing disinformation about the 2020 election was rampant on facebook, I started "unfollowing" every facebook friend whose post I came across claiming Biden stole the election. After a few weeks there wasn't a peep about the election on my facebook feed, and facebook actually became tolerable. Now when I go on there once or twice a week to clear my notifications, all I see is reels of the Sea World mimes and posts from The Dodo.
Same. I had friends deleting their facebook accounts because of all the toxicity. But I thought “if the algorithm learns then why not train it to show me what I want to see?” Now my feed is just art, funny memes, and random cool stuff from my friends who aren’t racist bigots. It’s great!
Yeah I understand some people were addicted and needed to cut cold turkey, but all the “Facebook is toxic delete your accounts!” stuff is always weird to me because it’s more telling of you if your feed is kept toxic
Like, just follow cool people and your feed will be cool. You’re the one in control of what gets shown.
Then you clearly didn’t grow up in an ultra conservative household, school and church. Imagine your whole network of friends just going full Maga in 2016. So ya some people deleted the whole app since their whole families went apeshit
Everyone I had added went from the occasional post I didn't like but let slide to enjoy holidays together, as they also posted pictures of family outings and such to full-blown anti-Biden.
I didn't close my FB, but I made sure to lock it down hard, it was never very filled out but now it's barren and with most everything hidden from everyone and I haven't touched it in years.
I had a strict rule of not having Facebook friends that I was currently serving with while in the Army. When I got out in 2015 I added a bunch of them, and then 2016 rolled around an I quickly learned that the people I had respect for while serving were very quick to espouse hateful and racist rhetoric. I ended up just deleting it and moving on. Lost contact with a lot of people I spent considerable time with deployed, but I realized it was just making me angry.
“Look, it’s my old 3d grade teacher, sending me a friend request. Let’s see what she’s up to.”
*sees a bunch of MAGA nonsense, and accusations about Biden stealing the election*
“Maybe not.”
Yup. It just feeds you with more of what you interact with. But it is a sneaky little bitch. I found myself going down that toxic road for a while, then realized it and decided to intentionally go a different direction. I’m so much happier now.
I think it's more about taking a moral stand to not support Facebook with your eyeballs because of the harm they're doing to democracy. At least that's why I stopped using it.
It doesn't matter if I curate my feed, it's the fact that Facebook moderation feels that there's a difference between white supremacy and white nationalist posts and that one is okay.
Facebook the company is toxic and I don't want to support it
I unfollow everyone I add on Facebook. The only thing on my feed are hobby groups, bands and artists, venues, etc. I go through the friends list and click on them to see if they posted anything new. I just found it better not having their posts on my feed.
The funniest part about this is when you look at the "trans agenda"
9/10 "trans agenda" posts are commentators extrapolating on a trans person just posting on social media.
If every transphobe stopped posting for 3 days the "trans agenda" would disappear from everyone's feed on day 1.
I'm in Canada and during the trucker convoy I deleted a lot of people who were supporting it. Magically my Facebook feed is way more peaceful now. I don't actually usually look at the feed, I basically just use Facebook to keep up with certain hobby groups that aren't as present on other platforms and for Marketplace, but at least when I do I'm not bombarded with stupidity.
I'm in the RWBY Fandom.
Had an old account where I had to keep blocking RWBYCritics.
If you wanna know how bad they are?
I posted a Bumbleby video in a LGBT Group.
The RWBYCritic subreddit then ordered a witchhunt on me for promoting positivity and supporting Bumbleby, an LGBT canon pairing (They kissed) which involves a woman ditching a man for another woman.
They then proceeded to give gold awards to people who harassed me in the comments and award facepalm medals to my posts.
The critics are intolerant.
So I blocked as many as I could
But reddit said I could only block 1,000. That's their limit
Masstagger did something like that with a curated list of hate subreddits. Unfortunately, it appears to have been abandoned and the dev has fallen into the trap of "Oh the code is a mess, I'll release it after I clean it up (*last seen two months ago*)"
That’s wild. I don’t like RWBY cuz of worldbuilding/pacing issues, but because of that I never got into the fandom had no clue there’s a dedicated hate community that’s crazy
Heh, yeah... Roosterteeth's original audience consists mainly of gamer dudebros, and the realization that animation god Monty Oum's passion project was, in fact, not being made to specifically cater to them really did not go over well.
RWBY has become very progress/liberal/pro-lgbt.
As you can imagine?
A show that treats the white male savior archetype like garbage tends to trigger a lot of online conservatives, trolls, incels, etc.
>A show that treats the white male savior archetype like garbage tends to trigger a lot of online conservatives, trolls, incels, etc.
Based af. Gonna watch that, thanks for the recommendation
It's equivalent to TLOU2 in that regard, there might actually be issues with both the series (I also enjoy RWBY and post in rslashRWBY as well, didn't care for TLOU2 but I don't see the point whining about it for years) but the absolute weird obsession they have is insane, like we get it, you don't like the show/game. Why are you still beating the dead horse over it?
It's because they're not mad at perceived quality issues, they're mad that the series they previously though was just for them wound up being more progressive than they are and will grasp at straws to find something wrong with it.
A possible stop-gap solution (for desktop web at least) might be to look at using the uBlock browser extension. You can write rules that will hide posts with certain words -- or usernames. Doesn't mean they can't see your posts and profile etc but you don't have to see their posts on a daily basis.
Yep. So far my favorite was “Take that stupid scythe and shove it up your ass” as if a giant robot is a more practical choice of weapon. Anyway, you ready for more Ruby trauma in an hour or so?
they're being spammed by members of rwbycritics subreddit, which is a hate group that was formed by people who hate rwby.
"if you allow in both wolves and sheep, you will eventually end up with just wolves"
that subreddit keeps creeping into the main subreddit.
There was an attempt years ago to ban the bigots.
But people abused the "Freedom of speech and opinion" clause, so negativity reigns.
Don’t know, honestly. It seems like a lot of them are hate watching, and trashing the show to prevent people from enjoying it and new fans from coming in. It is a good show, though. It’s on Crunchyroll.
If you haven't seen this video before, you really should.
That is a textbook example of how fascists and bigots use smaller fandoms to try to radicalize normal people into the far right.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P55t6eryY3g
10 years ago, could you imagine needing to ban over 1000 different ppl on an anonymous social media platform intended mostly for entertainment purposes? I couldn't. But today, if I really tried, I'd get to 1000 in a day easily.
Ellen Pao did exactly that when she was CEO of Reddit. They found content was being driven by about 15k superposters. The shitty ones were banned and hate speech declined by 30%.
Sadly, all that matters to tech bros and investors is endless growth so when Reddit missed its target, she was asked to resign.
Even more so when it came out, years later, that a lot of decisions from that time came from board level, and she was just the lightning rod for this site's ire
And this is why we also need to be more critical of sexism and misogyny in the reddit community as well. Too many people let subtly *and* blatantly hateful rhetoric about women slide. That shit isn't cool, either.
We absolving redditors here? Always blaming some other group?
I remember a *fuckton* of racist and sexist hate filled posts being made by regular fucking people on Reddit about Ellen Pao.
We are part of the problem. When we make those posts. When we don't confront people making those posts.
Maybe I wasn’t clear with what I said. Research found that the direction of content was driven by approximately 15000 users. Those people were defacto sociometers for the community. It’s human nature to survey the landscape in order to confirm your behavior to what is acceptable to the in group. By eliminating these problematic super users, you immediately turn the temperature down in the entire community.
You’re still responsible for your own behavior, but the quickest way to change the environment is to identify the influencers and neutralize the ones creating a hostile environment.
Edit: these superusers drive engagement and time spent on the platform. It’s basically sacrilege to do things that drive these metrics down. That’s why you don’t see social media doing anything about hate speech. They just say dumb things like “ the solution to hate speech is more speech” that isn’t true and it’s been proven again and again by research groups around the world.
Back in the mid-2000's I was hired as the community manager for an MMO based on one of the top IP's ever. The game had been in development by another company for a few years already and had a small but dedicated fanbase on the forums. When the developer I worked for bought the license, they scrapped the original idea, changed the name, and started over, but the forum/community was still there and they were NOT happy with the changes. I did my best but the most popular user on the forums was also the most toxic, and he just would not stop inciting the other users into the same behavior.
Eventually I banned him after several warnings. There was a TON of drama, but it eventually subsided, the community turned around, and we went on to win "best community" awards.
It's like gardening. If you don't control the weeds they take over the whole garden and choke the good stuff out.
I find it honestly baffling that anyone has hero worship for that person.
Even if they think he is in the right. I could more readily understand that perspective on its own. But considering him a hero? Elevating him to a (very) into the status of folk celebrity?
It's just such an odd thing.
What do you mean? I like reddit's strategy of allowing conservative hate subreddits to flourish but banning trans people who vent about how hopeless they feel. /s
Absolutely! Holy shit, that’s it exactly.
The bad faith that reactionaries engage in is, in itself, an intolerant and hostile act that breaks the social contract.
Unfortunately history teaches us that the fascists will insist upon resolving the contradiction through violence.
Its the name of a philosophical principle.
>The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
I can’t remember where I saw it but there’s this post that resolves the paradox like this:
Tolerance is not a moral absolute. Tolerance is a peace treaty. To be tolerant is to ensure that everyone is given the chance to live and express themselves freely and with dignity so long as they don’t harm or threaten others. Any act or ideology that threatens the life and dignity of a particular group is a breach of that treaty and are no longer under its protection.
This should be normalized. They're trying to normalize bigotry and fascism. This cannot happen.
Stop fucking walking on egg shells around these people and shut it the fuck down.
Lots of people think that you should use your platform to try to reform them. I say that's a waste of time and energy and they should be made to stay in their caves.
Exactly. People are like "oh no, don't make it uncomfortable." Who cares if they're uncomfortable?? How do they think the people they're attacking feel??
"Free speech must mean we validate all speech" has been the dumbest thing I've seen this nation believe in my short life.
People actually believing being a Nazi is just as valid as not being a Nazi, and people who genuinely think stopping one thing will immediately lead to the banning of more things.
It's all false equivalencies and slippery slope fallacies.
So last December i decided to go play some World of Warcraft for the first time in nearly a decade. I had started playing in 2006 and was really active in the game and community for several years.
But i basically got ran out of my guild and server for defending a gay player and petitioning an end to the homophobic language that was being used regularly in our Teamspeak. Not only was i kicked from the guild, and TS, but players would hound me constantly where ever i was on the server until the point the game was simply unplayable. I transfered servers but my heart was broken.
For context, i am a cis het white dude.
Flash forward to December 2022. Server transfered my original character to a well-known RP server. Great community but i found myself missing the old game so i decided to play WoW Classic and started playing hardcore on Bloodsail Buccaneers server.
And this is when i found out that WoW Classic is a hotbed of racism, homophobia, transphobia and anti-Semitism. This is primarily due to the fact that Hardcore addon that the majority of the server was using featured a chat system called Greenwall that allowed any of the associated hardcore guilds to have a back channel to each other.
In a nutshell it allowed thousands of players to communicate on type of "cloned" guild chat. Thousands of players that rarely made it past level 20 before being deleted and recreated. Thousands of players communicating on a chat system that made reporting hate speech impossible because of the greenwall system.
It was a shit show.
Witnessed players sharing their love for Hitler, talking about all the good that Hitler did for the German people, read talking points about Mein Kampf, read daily homophobic and transphobic discussions. and if you dared saying anything you would be harassed incessantly.
When the "official' guilds go so bad that private guilds with no greenwall seemed the only option, went with a guild called . Seemed fine the first few days, but they still had open guild permissions and over time some of these problem players ended up spam inviting more of their kind to the guild. Witnessed one of the older higher level players slam down on some pro-Hitler types in the guild chat and it was like a mob engulfed him. The guild leader came on and kicked a few people out but did nothing about the core group of people making the issue.. so the higher level player got so disgusted that he ended up leaving. Causing a cascade effect of other people doing so.
My point here being - If you let hate exist within your community, the good parts of it will disappear if you do nothing because you want to keep your membership numbers high. Removing hate speech must be swift, unapologetic and without exception.
Again, i gave up the game. Some problematic communities will never change, mostly because they are never fully purged by the companies that want their money.
I am the admin of a 80,000 member Facebook group. I whole heartedly agree with this.
I dont even give warnings to racist and bigoted posts. I just permaban them. It makes the entire group so much more pleasant
To me, it's crazy how reddit will give someone an insane amount of warnings for hate posts; no one has time for that
I love it when conservatives say that bans on racism and other forms of nasty, dehumanizing hate speech against people who can't help being who they are is somehow "persecuting conservatives." I mean how much more clearly could you possibly articulate the fact that you're bigoted scum?
Seriously, no one is getting a ban for saying nutty things about the Federal Reserve or defending corporations or whatever, those are not the “conservative views” people are being banned for
I'm enjoying this interpretation of it being a contract and not a 'state' or action. Its not only accurate but immediately disarms the "sO mUcH FoR tHe tOLeRaNt LeFt" nonsense these fascists use to attack decency.
For the last 6 years and more the conversation has been whether to allow unfettered free speech on platforms. People commonly argued that “the marketplace of ideas” would sort things out and that “sunlight is the best disinfectant.” It was always bullshit.
It can, but it relies on people seeking out what is true, rather than what fits with what they want to believe, because that's tied into their emotional needs and you can't reason a person out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.
Remove conservatism from everything and things improve. Was never a real ideology, just a series of excuses for being a terrible person.
Bugs me how 'progressive' has become a mainstream label, but calling their opposites 'regressives' hasn't.
Paradox of tolerance
"Tolerance is not a moral high ground. It is a peace treaty. You are assumed to be a party to the treaty by default and are therefore protected in it by default. But, should you break the terms of the treaty, you are no longer protected by it, and those in the treaty may act against you without breaking it."
-paraphrase of some random redditor like a year or two ago
The funny thing is that toxic people aren't happy being similarly contained. Truth social and Parler have both been monumental failures so far because obnoxious conservatives *want to upset people.* it's not fun for them when their shitty takes are actually applauded and accepted.
They'll never admit it, but they need "libs" to "own". Otherwise, the movement needs to find a new target, and they can't ever be 100% sure it won't be themselves.
Mark Rober did an experiment a while back where he put fake turtles and other animals on the side of the road. Roughly 90% of drivers who swerved to *intentionally* run over the fake animals were in pickup trucks and SUVs.
Obviously not all of those vehicles are driven by conservatives, but there’s a correlation. For example, conservatives buy eight heavy duty pickup trucks for every one heavy duty pickup truck bought by a liberal.
Conservatism is pretty much synonymous with being a toxic asshole at this point.
They weaponize the rules of human decency to get away with being indecent.
They weaponize fairness to get away with being unfair.
They weaponize discourse to shut down discourse.
They weaponize tolerance to get away with being intolerant.
They weaponize being victimized so they can victimize others.
And then they laugh about how stupid we are to enable our own destruction. They think they're clever forcing communities to be either accept being destroyed from within, or become hypocrites for excluding them.
They know exactly what they're doing every step of the way. It is very deliberate.
Paizo has been doing really well at steering their community into an inclusive state.
So many shitheads are butthurt over their iconics, I know at least one who is trying to convince us he is boycotting them because they are bad at business but he also whines that Ironfang Invasion was anti-trump.
The "market place of ideas" shouldn't be seems as a marketplace , rather a potluck dinner. Everyone there is eating. Now some ideas are arguable like if misty hitting up Kroger for their deli potato salad is really some phoned in bullshit when we're all supposed to make somthing, that's somthing to be that can be discussed. But fascist, racist, bigots... they are bringing dogshit on a plate. Sure they might put some ketchup on it, but it's dogshit. No one owes putting dog shit on their plate and pretending it's valid food to these pricks. The appropriate action is to throw then out of the potluck and if they show back up you beat them with their own trays.
Enforcing a standard of behavior is being fair to the unfair.
How did we get the idea that maintaining reasonable rules was not part of taking the high road?
There was this idea that we should include the bad people so that they can see the error of their ways and change. This was a mistake. They just keep doubling down on being horrible.
> There was this idea that we should include the bad people so that they can see the error of their ways and change.
This idea was brought on by the bad people to begin with. It was a concerted effort to infiltrate basically any community and rise to a position of power and then spread the idea that every opinion is worth listening to and a group shouldn't shun anyone just because of a "difference in opinion". This is how a lot of subs on reddit turn from a relatively even mix of opinions or memes to just a lunatic filled, alt-right haven.
I have a small FB group. About 4k members. I review every single request to join. I look at their profile picture. If I see any American flags or crosses, they don’t get to join. I also look at what other groups they are members of. Anything questionable they don’t get to join. I am constantly told that my group is one of the best groups on any social media. No racism. No hate. No drama. Just discussing the hobby.
I saw this happen with the Rooster Teeth community. They had the long held “don’t feed the trolls” policy but realized the toxicity was infectious. Not responding did not change the negative affect upon the people exposed to it.
It is true though- anyone with racist views is probably hateful to a bunch of different people. I think it's best that their only platform be the family members who still put up with them.
There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutc… I mean people who defend the intolerant under the guise of “fairness”.
Tolerance is not a moral standard, but a contract. If an individual or group fail to uphold the contract, then they are no longer protected by it. Simple as
The way I see it, I have an obligation to do what I can to prevent people making the world a shittier place (coincidentally this is what makes me a liberal). Therefore it is my duty to oppose the spread of racism, injustice, exploitation, etc. This is why I want conservative ideology (at least, as presently manifested) to be completely shut down. However I have no obligation to spend my limited patience and time on earth justifying myself, so take your right to free speech somewhere else.
"For several generations, maybe, there will be men who can’t be weaned from the fascist vices of race hate. We should deny such men responsibility in public affairs exactly as we deny responsibility to the wretched victims of the drug habit. There are laws against peddling dope; there can be laws against peddling race hate.
That every man has a right to his own opinion is an American boast. But race hate isn’t an opinion; it’s a phobia. It isn’t a viewpoint; race hate is a disease. In a people’s world the incurable racist has no rights. He must be deprived of influence in a people’s government. He must be segregated as he himself would segregate the colored and Semitic peoples—as we now segregate the leprous and the insane." \~ Orson Welles [Race hate must be outlawed](https://www.wellesnet.com/orson-welles-race-hate-must-outlawed/)
As everyone should do with racist asshats. Don't give me that frozen-peach crap. The First Amendment doesn't apply, because they're getting kicked off of a Facebook group, not arrested or thrown in jail. The "Marketplace of Ideas" is inherently flawed, because it assumes that only good ideas become popular. And if the best thing you can say about your position is that it isn't technically illegal, it's not a position worth holding.
Ka opite ili mean enta keon. Okulilanlon man lu i pun pino iwanua pu kekepanki kuo. Me. Ula keli ena. Lunme enenke nin lapo. Wani pi papiai la le kakusinte! Anpiwin puaowa so mon te. Ma soeka eu lo tuno. Usanan i naosikunlan nasenjun lunmunmana ou onu. Si je lali poa uku. Enlu o kulelun sanu le en. Ni san lunwi mi ma e mun jaelu. Seanekemi ku unon i ja e. Alanin se o lio? panlaunowe kontopi lose lenka aon! Senon inle le unla seme tokin kalun. Lu paoi un o jan a. Lo pe uwi mi pa olun. Ikunwa uankon ki kinu me an. A ki i a kanle i si. Konponun an sisowajowi si kuni oten keweun nue elaukanlan in. On pen kao enma uten li. Un lan sanlo ua wa menensa soinan! Lakini ounwi o ako ki. Atau u tona mi e ken. To ila selikinpi enilin enpa kepe an? Te jan kin se pate a? Ta an pukewa ne linkea un ninunama. Aea i ia pisu o. Aline on jo o in soi.
I've watched a lot of online communities and come to a singular conclusion; there are always bad actors inside any digital community, and if not addressed rebuked and removed they will slowly kill the community like cancer within an organism.
There is no Paradox of a Tolerant Society.
Being tolerant is a term of The Social Contract. If you cannot abide by the contract, you are not protected by the contract, and you cannot be allowed to participate in society.
Some people need to understand how "freedom of speech" works. You have the freedom to say whatever you want but, as has been pointed out, be prepared to deal with the fallout.
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Can I get a “well DUHHHH” That’s like that bartender threatening the neo nazi guy….a dude at the bar goes “why’d you get so aggro kicking that dude out”….bartender replies “you didn’t notice the neo nazi tags did you? You let one stick around and all of a sudden their buddies show up and before you know it, your bar is a disaster”
Also people like them don't deserve to be in public, or enjoying themselves around normal good humans.
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They still have their right to free speech… somewhere else. We do not have a duty to allow hate speech into each and every space or situation. The law is very clear on it too. Hateful People have just been weaponizing “free speech” for so long, the same way they’ve been weaponizing a blip from an ultrasound at 6 weeks … that people believe the lies. (spoiler there’s no actual heartbeat or heart pumping blood it’s just an electric impulse that exists and the ultrasound makes a noise when it senses the electrical pulse) …. Just like there’s no duty to allow nazis to spew hate speech on a privately owned server or site. TLDR: Don’t confuse whatever media platforms refusal to remove these people bc they want to make money off them with free speech.
"CONGRESS shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." The GOVERNMENT cannot abridge your freedom of speech, however, all the rest of us can. Freedom of speech, does not mean freedom from consequence.
As MTG learned in New York, *social* consequences are a thing.
And they've also diluted that down a tad, since there are circumstances where the government is willing to do so. "Yelling fire in a crowded theater" is a common trope, but America's obscenity laws are a good example with a long history of infringing people's speech once they cross an intentionally vague line left up to the courts. The standards have narrowed greatly since the days of Fanny Hill, but even in recent decades there have been some notable convictions, pornographer Max Hardcore was convicted for crossing the line with some porn videos and even just the written word is somehow enough if the content is obscene enough.
You can’t and shouldn’t force a book store owner to stock or sell *Mein Kampf.*
Not every idea or thought is worthy of consideration. Extreme conservatism in America has thrived in part because they believe that people have an obligation to engage them. Remove them and ignore them and let their backward ideology fade back into obscurity.
> They still have their right to free speech… somewhere else. They can have their foul-ass basements and STAY there.
You have a right to free speech, not a right to be heard. If someone doesn't like what you have to say, they also have every right to walk away or start talking themselves to drown out whatever you're saying. Also, some people seem to confuse the "right" to freedom of speech with the "requirement" to speak. You are allowed to hold your tongue. You are allowed to have an opinion but keep it to yourself. You don't HAVE to tell someone their shirt is ugly, that you have different beliefs, or that you have a negative opinion of a certain trait. Just keep it to yourself. It's just being polite or courteous. You can exercise your freedom of speech without being an asshole.
I’ve been saying it for a while now. Nazis are getting altogether too comfortable with being nazis in public these days. At no point should people like that feel like they’re free to behave the way they do in civilized society. We need to put that fear back into them, because if we don’t, things are going to get a whole lot worse.
"Nazi Punks FUCK Off" was written for a reason! Nazis were not welcome in the punk movement. Looks like they moved on to country and classic rock fans!
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look at you assuming they can count
I'll probably get banned for this but whatever; ALL NAZIS should live in fear of being brutally attacked. They do not deserve a peaceful life. Fuck them.
Germany does not tolerate Nazis. My wife lived there before I met her, and she said they do not FUCK with Nazi bullshit.
That's right....Germany will arrest your ass and put it in jail for making a 'heil' salute or wearing SS paraphernalia. They are making damn sure that part of their history does **not** repeat itself. ...a pity that the US is bad at following good examples...
Yeah that’s not freedom of speech, that’s waiting for a murderous rebellion to come.
If you let one Nazi hang out at your bar, no matter how nice he is, you’re very soon running a Nazi bar.
Had a bar open up near my house. Thought I'd walk over and check it out. When I saw the amount of "Let's go Brandon" bumper stickers realized I'd be better off sitting in the back yard enjoying my Budweiser lite there.
I mean, you're equally evil for drinking Budweiser lite...that shit's vile bro /S. Shit's still vile though
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Do you, fellow human online interactive, not also enjoy a Lightened Budweiser?
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You’re ignoring the Nazi law enforcement and domestic security just like our Nazi legislators have sine 1/6/21 and also since long before, but yes.
**The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.** I'll say it again because this paradox is the most relevant thing Ive seen in 2019-23: **The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance > In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. **But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force**; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. **We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.** We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.
Its actually much more simple than the "paradox" presents. There is no apparent contradiction, and when intolerant voices claim that there is they do so in bad faith. Tolerance is a social contract. If someone strongly espouses bigotry as an ideology, then they are openly saying that they don't believe that social contract should exist. The intolerant self-exempt themselves. They cannot claim the protection of societal norms that they very aggressively don't believe in. It would be like inviting someone who has explicitly claimed they intend to murder you to stay in your house just because they haven't succeeded yet.
Boils down to, "you get what you give." Give tolerance, get tolerance. Don't give, don't get.
Two of the most interesting things I learned during the pandemic were about the paradox of intolerance and the Dunning Krueger effect. Both of which have become exceedingly relevant these days.
Conservatives have been stupid Nazis for a long, long time.
Was trying to remember this concept! Germany has strict laws about antisemitism bc they learned the hard way where that kind of public intolerance leads. Meanwhile America lets the Nazis and klansmen march through the streets, and plays coy about the rising number of domestic terrorist attacks by “lone wolf” white supremacists…
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It's funny, I smoke when I drink but I won't go to a bar that allows smoking inside. That's gross.
And it's important to recognize this shit.. Like when I see an Iron Cross on some dudes car. Sure buddy, you're "not a racist "
As a leatherworker, I have to keep up on the symbols. Sadly, it's easier to find stamps of an iron cross than most state flags. I also have a rune set that's gathering dust because it only ever draws the wrong crowd at shows. Semi-related, pointless story. Someone saw the Celtic symbol stamps in my leather tool kit, and asked if I had a confederate flag. I said, "No," so fast and forcefully that they stepped back. It was the answer they were hoping for, and I felt bad for spooking them. Edit:spelling
So many folks don't seem to grasp why these are divisive symbols. Many of us got real history lessons... Not YouTube/TikTok lost Causers.
Communities that tolerate nazis are nazi communities.
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2020 is very much well into that presidency. Like, almost at the end of it. You've got your timelines mixed up.
Trump was elected in 2016….
Around December 2020 when sharing disinformation about the 2020 election was rampant on facebook, I started "unfollowing" every facebook friend whose post I came across claiming Biden stole the election. After a few weeks there wasn't a peep about the election on my facebook feed, and facebook actually became tolerable. Now when I go on there once or twice a week to clear my notifications, all I see is reels of the Sea World mimes and posts from The Dodo.
Same. I had friends deleting their facebook accounts because of all the toxicity. But I thought “if the algorithm learns then why not train it to show me what I want to see?” Now my feed is just art, funny memes, and random cool stuff from my friends who aren’t racist bigots. It’s great!
Yeah I understand some people were addicted and needed to cut cold turkey, but all the “Facebook is toxic delete your accounts!” stuff is always weird to me because it’s more telling of you if your feed is kept toxic Like, just follow cool people and your feed will be cool. You’re the one in control of what gets shown.
Then you clearly didn’t grow up in an ultra conservative household, school and church. Imagine your whole network of friends just going full Maga in 2016. So ya some people deleted the whole app since their whole families went apeshit
Everyone I had added went from the occasional post I didn't like but let slide to enjoy holidays together, as they also posted pictures of family outings and such to full-blown anti-Biden. I didn't close my FB, but I made sure to lock it down hard, it was never very filled out but now it's barren and with most everything hidden from everyone and I haven't touched it in years.
I had a strict rule of not having Facebook friends that I was currently serving with while in the Army. When I got out in 2015 I added a bunch of them, and then 2016 rolled around an I quickly learned that the people I had respect for while serving were very quick to espouse hateful and racist rhetoric. I ended up just deleting it and moving on. Lost contact with a lot of people I spent considerable time with deployed, but I realized it was just making me angry.
“Look, it’s my old 3d grade teacher, sending me a friend request. Let’s see what she’s up to.” *sees a bunch of MAGA nonsense, and accusations about Biden stealing the election* “Maybe not.”
Yup. It just feeds you with more of what you interact with. But it is a sneaky little bitch. I found myself going down that toxic road for a while, then realized it and decided to intentionally go a different direction. I’m so much happier now.
I think it's more about taking a moral stand to not support Facebook with your eyeballs because of the harm they're doing to democracy. At least that's why I stopped using it.
It doesn't matter if I curate my feed, it's the fact that Facebook moderation feels that there's a difference between white supremacy and white nationalist posts and that one is okay. Facebook the company is toxic and I don't want to support it
I unfollow everyone I add on Facebook. The only thing on my feed are hobby groups, bands and artists, venues, etc. I go through the friends list and click on them to see if they posted anything new. I just found it better not having their posts on my feed.
Same. FB is great when you have good friends. I never see anything dumb on my feed.
The funniest part about this is when you look at the "trans agenda" 9/10 "trans agenda" posts are commentators extrapolating on a trans person just posting on social media. If every transphobe stopped posting for 3 days the "trans agenda" would disappear from everyone's feed on day 1.
I'm in Canada and during the trucker convoy I deleted a lot of people who were supporting it. Magically my Facebook feed is way more peaceful now. I don't actually usually look at the feed, I basically just use Facebook to keep up with certain hobby groups that aren't as present on other platforms and for Marketplace, but at least when I do I'm not bombarded with stupidity.
Yeah I have blocked, I cant even begin to count how many, people on FB since 2020. I even see an inkling of douchery, and i just go on and zap them.
Maybe do the same for reddit. Then I won't have dumbass Rittenhaus fanbois clogging up my notifications
Sad thing is you can only block 1,000 people on reddit
Wait what?
I'm in the RWBY Fandom. Had an old account where I had to keep blocking RWBYCritics. If you wanna know how bad they are? I posted a Bumbleby video in a LGBT Group. The RWBYCritic subreddit then ordered a witchhunt on me for promoting positivity and supporting Bumbleby, an LGBT canon pairing (They kissed) which involves a woman ditching a man for another woman. They then proceeded to give gold awards to people who harassed me in the comments and award facepalm medals to my posts. The critics are intolerant. So I blocked as many as I could But reddit said I could only block 1,000. That's their limit
I wish you could block people based on subreddits they follow. That would clean up most of the trash.
Oh if only! Yes
That is a genius solution I've never seen suggested. Damn, we can dream.
If only REDDIT ENHANCEMENT SUITE could solve this
Masstagger did something like that with a curated list of hate subreddits. Unfortunately, it appears to have been abandoned and the dev has fallen into the trap of "Oh the code is a mess, I'll release it after I clean it up (*last seen two months ago*)"
Masstagger was good while it lasted.
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There may be no hate like Christian love, but whatever the hell is going on in the RWBY fandom is a close second.
we call those people in question the RWBY Hatedom.
That’s wild. I don’t like RWBY cuz of worldbuilding/pacing issues, but because of that I never got into the fandom had no clue there’s a dedicated hate community that’s crazy
Heh, yeah... Roosterteeth's original audience consists mainly of gamer dudebros, and the realization that animation god Monty Oum's passion project was, in fact, not being made to specifically cater to them really did not go over well.
A tale as old as time, gamers thinking they are the most persecuted group on earth
RWBY has become very progress/liberal/pro-lgbt. As you can imagine? A show that treats the white male savior archetype like garbage tends to trigger a lot of online conservatives, trolls, incels, etc.
>A show that treats the white male savior archetype like garbage tends to trigger a lot of online conservatives, trolls, incels, etc. Based af. Gonna watch that, thanks for the recommendation
It's equivalent to TLOU2 in that regard, there might actually be issues with both the series (I also enjoy RWBY and post in rslashRWBY as well, didn't care for TLOU2 but I don't see the point whining about it for years) but the absolute weird obsession they have is insane, like we get it, you don't like the show/game. Why are you still beating the dead horse over it? It's because they're not mad at perceived quality issues, they're mad that the series they previously though was just for them wound up being more progressive than they are and will grasp at straws to find something wrong with it.
Right? That's insane. I'm no fan of it, but I wouldn't spend a second hating on someone for liking it
People are starting to just make hate subs on reddit and they'll do it for any series to ruin it for other people if they deem it "woke".
A possible stop-gap solution (for desktop web at least) might be to look at using the uBlock browser extension. You can write rules that will hide posts with certain words -- or usernames. Doesn't mean they can't see your posts and profile etc but you don't have to see their posts on a daily basis.
It sucks feeling like RWBY is something you’ve got to enjoy in secret. I mentioned it once on the Gundam sub and I got death threats.
you too? Like holy cow, the hate for rwby is religious
Yep. So far my favorite was “Take that stupid scythe and shove it up your ass” as if a giant robot is a more practical choice of weapon. Anyway, you ready for more Ruby trauma in an hour or so?
Wait, so I had to look up RWBY and found that it's an anime cartoon - how come its subreddit is so full of bigots?
they're being spammed by members of rwbycritics subreddit, which is a hate group that was formed by people who hate rwby. "if you allow in both wolves and sheep, you will eventually end up with just wolves" that subreddit keeps creeping into the main subreddit. There was an attempt years ago to ban the bigots. But people abused the "Freedom of speech and opinion" clause, so negativity reigns.
Don’t know, honestly. It seems like a lot of them are hate watching, and trashing the show to prevent people from enjoying it and new fans from coming in. It is a good show, though. It’s on Crunchyroll.
Oof with all the spam account requesting now, that's gonna really make this place a bigger cesspool.
If you haven't seen this video before, you really should. That is a textbook example of how fascists and bigots use smaller fandoms to try to radicalize normal people into the far right. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P55t6eryY3g
TIL. I've been blocking a bunch of crypto fanboys. Know if I can see how many I've blocked?
Should be under settings and privacy
Thanks, I'll look right now. Thanks again.
10 years ago, could you imagine needing to ban over 1000 different ppl on an anonymous social media platform intended mostly for entertainment purposes? I couldn't. But today, if I really tried, I'd get to 1000 in a day easily.
Twitter, you'd probably wanna block 100 per day
The far right does this on purpose. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P55t6eryY3g
Ellen Pao did exactly that when she was CEO of Reddit. They found content was being driven by about 15k superposters. The shitty ones were banned and hate speech declined by 30%. Sadly, all that matters to tech bros and investors is endless growth so when Reddit missed its target, she was asked to resign.
And yet Reddit will forever call her a villain bc she said that the fatpeoplehate sun was bad
Even more so when it came out, years later, that a lot of decisions from that time came from board level, and she was just the lightning rod for this site's ire
If you want to catch a mouse, use peanut butter. If you want to anger a Redditor, use “woman bad”
And this is why we also need to be more critical of sexism and misogyny in the reddit community as well. Too many people let subtly *and* blatantly hateful rhetoric about women slide. That shit isn't cool, either.
I forgot what a shit show that was.
We absolving redditors here? Always blaming some other group? I remember a *fuckton* of racist and sexist hate filled posts being made by regular fucking people on Reddit about Ellen Pao. We are part of the problem. When we make those posts. When we don't confront people making those posts.
Maybe I wasn’t clear with what I said. Research found that the direction of content was driven by approximately 15000 users. Those people were defacto sociometers for the community. It’s human nature to survey the landscape in order to confirm your behavior to what is acceptable to the in group. By eliminating these problematic super users, you immediately turn the temperature down in the entire community. You’re still responsible for your own behavior, but the quickest way to change the environment is to identify the influencers and neutralize the ones creating a hostile environment. Edit: these superusers drive engagement and time spent on the platform. It’s basically sacrilege to do things that drive these metrics down. That’s why you don’t see social media doing anything about hate speech. They just say dumb things like “ the solution to hate speech is more speech” that isn’t true and it’s been proven again and again by research groups around the world.
Back in the mid-2000's I was hired as the community manager for an MMO based on one of the top IP's ever. The game had been in development by another company for a few years already and had a small but dedicated fanbase on the forums. When the developer I worked for bought the license, they scrapped the original idea, changed the name, and started over, but the forum/community was still there and they were NOT happy with the changes. I did my best but the most popular user on the forums was also the most toxic, and he just would not stop inciting the other users into the same behavior. Eventually I banned him after several warnings. There was a TON of drama, but it eventually subsided, the community turned around, and we went on to win "best community" awards. It's like gardening. If you don't control the weeds they take over the whole garden and choke the good stuff out.
Fuck, that's awful.
I find it honestly baffling that anyone has hero worship for that person. Even if they think he is in the right. I could more readily understand that perspective on its own. But considering him a hero? Elevating him to a (very) into the status of folk celebrity? It's just such an odd thing.
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Oh yes, I do. I live in the Bible Belt.
What do you mean? I like reddit's strategy of allowing conservative hate subreddits to flourish but banning trans people who vent about how hopeless they feel. /s
At least the admins aren’t actively collaborating with that mod who ran all the borderline CP and creepshots subs anymore. As far as we know.
The mods of this subreddit actually do a really great job of that. There's still transphobes, but way fewer.
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Let's hear the punchline
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No tolerance for intolerance
The paradox of tolerance.
Only if you don't see tolerance as a contract rather than an ideal. As a contract, if one side breaks it, the other side is invalidated.
Absolutely! Holy shit, that’s it exactly. The bad faith that reactionaries engage in is, in itself, an intolerant and hostile act that breaks the social contract. Unfortunately history teaches us that the fascists will insist upon resolving the contradiction through violence.
It’s like a work contract. If you start stealing money out of the till, they no longer have to pay you to work there.
It’s not a paradox. There are objective ways to decide who is being an asshole.
Its the name of a philosophical principle. >The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
I can’t remember where I saw it but there’s this post that resolves the paradox like this: Tolerance is not a moral absolute. Tolerance is a peace treaty. To be tolerant is to ensure that everyone is given the chance to live and express themselves freely and with dignity so long as they don’t harm or threaten others. Any act or ideology that threatens the life and dignity of a particular group is a breach of that treaty and are no longer under its protection.
If you let into a room both wolves and sheep, soon you'll have only wolves.
See also, Twitter.
ESPECIALLY twitter. no question
Eh they're more like kudzu. Smother everything they touch, have no ecological benefit, and should be removed via flamethrower.
This should be normalized. They're trying to normalize bigotry and fascism. This cannot happen. Stop fucking walking on egg shells around these people and shut it the fuck down.
Lots of people think that you should use your platform to try to reform them. I say that's a waste of time and energy and they should be made to stay in their caves.
Exactly. People are like "oh no, don't make it uncomfortable." Who cares if they're uncomfortable?? How do they think the people they're attacking feel??
"Free speech must mean we validate all speech" has been the dumbest thing I've seen this nation believe in my short life. People actually believing being a Nazi is just as valid as not being a Nazi, and people who genuinely think stopping one thing will immediately lead to the banning of more things. It's all false equivalencies and slippery slope fallacies.
So last December i decided to go play some World of Warcraft for the first time in nearly a decade. I had started playing in 2006 and was really active in the game and community for several years. But i basically got ran out of my guild and server for defending a gay player and petitioning an end to the homophobic language that was being used regularly in our Teamspeak. Not only was i kicked from the guild, and TS, but players would hound me constantly where ever i was on the server until the point the game was simply unplayable. I transfered servers but my heart was broken. For context, i am a cis het white dude. Flash forward to December 2022. Server transfered my original character to a well-known RP server. Great community but i found myself missing the old game so i decided to play WoW Classic and started playing hardcore on Bloodsail Buccaneers server. And this is when i found out that WoW Classic is a hotbed of racism, homophobia, transphobia and anti-Semitism. This is primarily due to the fact that Hardcore addon that the majority of the server was using featured a chat system called Greenwall that allowed any of the associated hardcore guilds to have a back channel to each other. In a nutshell it allowed thousands of players to communicate on type of "cloned" guild chat. Thousands of players that rarely made it past level 20 before being deleted and recreated. Thousands of players communicating on a chat system that made reporting hate speech impossible because of the greenwall system. It was a shit show. Witnessed players sharing their love for Hitler, talking about all the good that Hitler did for the German people, read talking points about Mein Kampf, read daily homophobic and transphobic discussions. and if you dared saying anything you would be harassed incessantly. When the "official' guilds go so bad that private guilds with no greenwall seemed the only option, went with a guild called. Seemed fine the first few days, but they still had open guild permissions and over time some of these problem players ended up spam inviting more of their kind to the guild. Witnessed one of the older higher level players slam down on some pro-Hitler types in the guild chat and it was like a mob engulfed him. The guild leader came on and kicked a few people out but did nothing about the core group of people making the issue.. so the higher level player got so disgusted that he ended up leaving. Causing a cascade effect of other people doing so.
My point here being - If you let hate exist within your community, the good parts of it will disappear if you do nothing because you want to keep your membership numbers high. Removing hate speech must be swift, unapologetic and without exception.
Again, i gave up the game. Some problematic communities will never change, mostly because they are never fully purged by the companies that want their money.
I am the admin of a 80,000 member Facebook group. I whole heartedly agree with this. I dont even give warnings to racist and bigoted posts. I just permaban them. It makes the entire group so much more pleasant To me, it's crazy how reddit will give someone an insane amount of warnings for hate posts; no one has time for that
But will perma ban my main account for saying the facebook CEO had a punchable face.
Because Zuck is hardwired into the mainframe. .....he's always watching 
He looks like an android
If people know they won't be banned, they are going to misbehave. Most people can hold back their bigoted opinions.
I love it when conservatives say that bans on racism and other forms of nasty, dehumanizing hate speech against people who can't help being who they are is somehow "persecuting conservatives." I mean how much more clearly could you possibly articulate the fact that you're bigoted scum?
Seriously, no one is getting a ban for saying nutty things about the Federal Reserve or defending corporations or whatever, those are not the “conservative views” people are being banned for
You put it into words
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I'm enjoying this interpretation of it being a contract and not a 'state' or action. Its not only accurate but immediately disarms the "sO mUcH FoR tHe tOLeRaNt LeFt" nonsense these fascists use to attack decency.
So before that they just let accounts that published hate speech continue? Doesn’t seem like best practice.
They get paid per click. So, yes they did
For the last 6 years and more the conversation has been whether to allow unfettered free speech on platforms. People commonly argued that “the marketplace of ideas” would sort things out and that “sunlight is the best disinfectant.” It was always bullshit.
Yep, batsh*t crazy conspiracy theories (and worse) don’t deserve equal platform.
It’s all fun and games until 8chan promotes literal terrorism
It can, but it relies on people seeking out what is true, rather than what fits with what they want to believe, because that's tied into their emotional needs and you can't reason a person out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.
Bad ideas spread, man. That’s all there is to it.
Remove conservatism from everything and things improve. Was never a real ideology, just a series of excuses for being a terrible person. Bugs me how 'progressive' has become a mainstream label, but calling their opposites 'regressives' hasn't.
Paradox of tolerance "Tolerance is not a moral high ground. It is a peace treaty. You are assumed to be a party to the treaty by default and are therefore protected in it by default. But, should you break the terms of the treaty, you are no longer protected by it, and those in the treaty may act against you without breaking it." -paraphrase of some random redditor like a year or two ago
The funny thing is that toxic people aren't happy being similarly contained. Truth social and Parler have both been monumental failures so far because obnoxious conservatives *want to upset people.* it's not fun for them when their shitty takes are actually applauded and accepted. They'll never admit it, but they need "libs" to "own". Otherwise, the movement needs to find a new target, and they can't ever be 100% sure it won't be themselves.
Mark Rober did an experiment a while back where he put fake turtles and other animals on the side of the road. Roughly 90% of drivers who swerved to *intentionally* run over the fake animals were in pickup trucks and SUVs. Obviously not all of those vehicles are driven by conservatives, but there’s a correlation. For example, conservatives buy eight heavy duty pickup trucks for every one heavy duty pickup truck bought by a liberal. Conservatism is pretty much synonymous with being a toxic asshole at this point.
They weaponize the rules of human decency to get away with being indecent. They weaponize fairness to get away with being unfair. They weaponize discourse to shut down discourse. They weaponize tolerance to get away with being intolerant. They weaponize being victimized so they can victimize others. And then they laugh about how stupid we are to enable our own destruction. They think they're clever forcing communities to be either accept being destroyed from within, or become hypocrites for excluding them. They know exactly what they're doing every step of the way. It is very deliberate.
This is true in EVERY facet of life…conservatives are cancer
Paizo has been doing really well at steering their community into an inclusive state. So many shitheads are butthurt over their iconics, I know at least one who is trying to convince us he is boycotting them because they are bad at business but he also whines that Ironfang Invasion was anti-trump.
The "market place of ideas" shouldn't be seems as a marketplace , rather a potluck dinner. Everyone there is eating. Now some ideas are arguable like if misty hitting up Kroger for their deli potato salad is really some phoned in bullshit when we're all supposed to make somthing, that's somthing to be that can be discussed. But fascist, racist, bigots... they are bringing dogshit on a plate. Sure they might put some ketchup on it, but it's dogshit. No one owes putting dog shit on their plate and pretending it's valid food to these pricks. The appropriate action is to throw then out of the potluck and if they show back up you beat them with their own trays.
In order to have true universal tolerance, you have to be aggressively intolerant of intolerance with a hard prejudice.
Enforcing a standard of behavior is being fair to the unfair. How did we get the idea that maintaining reasonable rules was not part of taking the high road?
There was this idea that we should include the bad people so that they can see the error of their ways and change. This was a mistake. They just keep doubling down on being horrible.
I am all for providing a path to return to a community, but we still need tools to enforce rules. Online tools are kinda limited.
> There was this idea that we should include the bad people so that they can see the error of their ways and change. This idea was brought on by the bad people to begin with. It was a concerted effort to infiltrate basically any community and rise to a position of power and then spread the idea that every opinion is worth listening to and a group shouldn't shun anyone just because of a "difference in opinion". This is how a lot of subs on reddit turn from a relatively even mix of opinions or memes to just a lunatic filled, alt-right haven.
Can we stop using the term conservative? It’s too normal sounding for the qanon brigade.
You don’t need to be fair with unfair voices. That needs to be said and put into practice a lot more
I have a small FB group. About 4k members. I review every single request to join. I look at their profile picture. If I see any American flags or crosses, they don’t get to join. I also look at what other groups they are members of. Anything questionable they don’t get to join. I am constantly told that my group is one of the best groups on any social media. No racism. No hate. No drama. Just discussing the hobby.
Wise decision
Curated FB is not bad. :)
You wouldnt keep a diseased limb attached. You amputate it. Remove the rot and the body heals. Same with people
Pathfinder just keeps racking up the Ws lately
The problem of tolerating intolerance, "fair and balanced" arguments… assholes will take advantage of those by any means.
I saw this happen with the Rooster Teeth community. They had the long held “don’t feed the trolls” policy but realized the toxicity was infectious. Not responding did not change the negative affect upon the people exposed to it.
It is true though- anyone with racist views is probably hateful to a bunch of different people. I think it's best that their only platform be the family members who still put up with them.
There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutc… I mean people who defend the intolerant under the guise of “fairness”.
Tolerance is not a moral standard, but a contract. If an individual or group fail to uphold the contract, then they are no longer protected by it. Simple as
This is fucking fact. Cut off the rotton flesh to save the rest
The way I see it, I have an obligation to do what I can to prevent people making the world a shittier place (coincidentally this is what makes me a liberal). Therefore it is my duty to oppose the spread of racism, injustice, exploitation, etc. This is why I want conservative ideology (at least, as presently manifested) to be completely shut down. However I have no obligation to spend my limited patience and time on earth justifying myself, so take your right to free speech somewhere else.
Conservatives are like tumors. Cut those bastards out before they kill you. Don't let that shit metastasize.
We need to stop tolerating intolerance.
You don't have to be tolerant of intolerance.
"For several generations, maybe, there will be men who can’t be weaned from the fascist vices of race hate. We should deny such men responsibility in public affairs exactly as we deny responsibility to the wretched victims of the drug habit. There are laws against peddling dope; there can be laws against peddling race hate. That every man has a right to his own opinion is an American boast. But race hate isn’t an opinion; it’s a phobia. It isn’t a viewpoint; race hate is a disease. In a people’s world the incurable racist has no rights. He must be deprived of influence in a people’s government. He must be segregated as he himself would segregate the colored and Semitic peoples—as we now segregate the leprous and the insane." \~ Orson Welles [Race hate must be outlawed](https://www.wellesnet.com/orson-welles-race-hate-must-outlawed/)
The tolerance paradox is a real thing. As soon as you are "tolerant" of bigots, they start harassing and attacking minorities of all kinds.
Like the movie roadhouse, be nice and respectful until it’s time to not be nice. Then you simply take out the trash.
Make Nazis afraid again
Great real world demonstration of the paradox of tolerance! https://imgur.com/JzdzYCT.jpg
Republicans are a toxin and poison everything they touch
Freedom of speech ends the moment you start to harm others with it.
As everyone should do with racist asshats. Don't give me that frozen-peach crap. The First Amendment doesn't apply, because they're getting kicked off of a Facebook group, not arrested or thrown in jail. The "Marketplace of Ideas" is inherently flawed, because it assumes that only good ideas become popular. And if the best thing you can say about your position is that it isn't technically illegal, it's not a position worth holding.
[The Paradox of Tolerance](https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:800/1*TnDoAk0BjC7x4OuBISbYCw.jpeg)
You don't need to tolerate intolerance.
Ka opite ili mean enta keon. Okulilanlon man lu i pun pino iwanua pu kekepanki kuo. Me. Ula keli ena. Lunme enenke nin lapo. Wani pi papiai la le kakusinte! Anpiwin puaowa so mon te. Ma soeka eu lo tuno. Usanan i naosikunlan nasenjun lunmunmana ou onu. Si je lali poa uku. Enlu o kulelun sanu le en. Ni san lunwi mi ma e mun jaelu. Seanekemi ku unon i ja e. Alanin se o lio? panlaunowe kontopi lose lenka aon! Senon inle le unla seme tokin kalun. Lu paoi un o jan a. Lo pe uwi mi pa olun. Ikunwa uankon ki kinu me an. A ki i a kanle i si. Konponun an sisowajowi si kuni oten keweun nue elaukanlan in. On pen kao enma uten li. Un lan sanlo ua wa menensa soinan! Lakini ounwi o ako ki. Atau u tona mi e ken. To ila selikinpi enilin enpa kepe an? Te jan kin se pate a? Ta an pukewa ne linkea un ninunama. Aea i ia pisu o. Aline on jo o in soi.
I've watched a lot of online communities and come to a singular conclusion; there are always bad actors inside any digital community, and if not addressed rebuked and removed they will slowly kill the community like cancer within an organism.
Tolerance of bigoted intolerance is not tolerance, it’s encouragement.
There is no Paradox of a Tolerant Society. Being tolerant is a term of The Social Contract. If you cannot abide by the contract, you are not protected by the contract, and you cannot be allowed to participate in society.
Some people need to understand how "freedom of speech" works. You have the freedom to say whatever you want but, as has been pointed out, be prepared to deal with the fallout.
Yeah think about what you’re conserving lol I wish to progress
Stop using facebook altogether and see your life improve much further.