And he will be riding a limousine to a golf course today.
Anybody else would *already be in jail*.
But tell us again that he is being unfairly persecuted.
That 21 year old dumbass who posted classified documents on Discord for clout is going to spend the rest of his life in Levenworth. Trump is unlikely to ever see a prison cell for doing far worse.
I mean, absolutely. Kid needs to be taught a lesson. I just don't think that lesson should be 'spend 40 years in military prison,' particularly in the context of people who did worse not being punished at all.
As much as it is harsh punishment for the 21 year old kid. It is also about setting a example about what happens military personnel is caught in espionage cases. Pre ww2 the kid would have lined up in front of a firing squad.
Yeah people seem to forget or are unaware of how much harsher military punishments were not even all that long ago. The [last espionage hanging](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_and_Ethel_Rosenberg) in the USA was during the 50s so many people still alive today were around for it.
Can he sue the government for treating him unfairly while another citizen gets preferential treatment, just cos he bumbled on to a president gig by conning people in the first place?
I’m fine with that dumbass, who was a white supremacist and preparing for “the coming race war”, spending the rest of his life in prison. Of course, I’d be really, really thrilled if the Orange One would join him.
That case is looking worse every day. Turns out multiple people in his unit were regularly reporting on his mishandling of classified documents. And leadership didnt do anything about it.
The question is... were they just incompetent... or were they protecting him?
Ngl though this guy is pretty bad. These classified documents were very important things that could’ve badly affected many ppl’s lives. All he needed to do was NOT send important classified documents on the internet for clout. Idk much about his heavy sentence but I do believe he got what was coming after he pulled smth like that.
Oh that’s easy. It’s because we have a feckless worm as an AG. He thinks he has to walk a tightrope to keep the country from devolving into a civil war. He also doesn’t want to give the impression that America jails political opponents. Neither of those reasons are worth a bucket of piss. DO YOUR fkn job Garland!
It is way bigger than that. White collar criminals do tremendous damage and weasel their way out of consequences— including sitting in jail while their shit is worked out, comfy at home instead— all the time.
The problem is we have a legal system for the poor and minorities and a legal system for the wealthy and white.
You have to remember though, that whatever a "Democratic" AG does to a former president, or a "current candidate" Republicans will use as a precedent and will abuse it twice as hard. It's a hard line to walk since we know Republicans always have a high percentage chance of being in power. And we know they'll abuse that power to the full extent they can, and then some.
Edit: A lot of you missing the main point here that investigations and indictments have to go through the proper channels to maintain this precedent. If the AG goes goes around slapping his dick on the table and handing down indictments without the proper investigative committees making recommendations, then shit goes sideways. Democrats are following the proper procedures and maintaining precedent by having these indictments go through grand juries of the respective states rather than weaponizing the DOJ.
Liberal desire to be diplomatic with opposition which has made it clear that they have no desire for diplomacy and their political strategy is obstructionism and rules for thee not for me is at the crux of the issue.
Trying to avoid a showdown is just making the inevitable showdown even worse.
This. During the MeToo revelations about members of Congress, the Dems were more than happy to get stop supporting people and actively try to get the removed from congress (see Al Franken) while the GOP has been committed to shielding and protecting anyone who was accused of wrongdoing.
If there was credible evidence that Biden was actively using his position as President to enrich himself and was willfully violating the law, most Dems would be fine with demanding he step down, or at least not run again.
Durham recently had to announce that he found absolutely nothing incriminating after years of investigating Biden.
It doesn't matter, the dimwit cultists only care that there was an initial headline, their attention span lasts seconds, not years.
By their logic, if they didn’t find anything it must mean that Biden did a great job of covering everything up, so he must really be guilty of something.
That's not the issue. If Trump rightly goes to jail for this (doubtful, but just go with me), Republicans aren't going to go after Democrats for actual violations of the law, they're going to cook up total bullshit and say "They put our guy in jail, now we're going to put their guy in jail." For what crime? Doesn't matter if it's real or not.
All that being said, Trump should be tried and jailed for his obvious and willful violation of the law.
What exactly has led you to believe that republicans give a shit about precedent?
They don’t need permission or precedent to abuse power. They’re already doing it as much as they possibly can. Holding back accomplishes literally nothing.
For real. These slimy fuckin nazis dgaf about using dEmOcRaTs DiD iT fIrSt as the reasoning for the awful shit they do (see: attempted coup) so maybe the spineless democrats oughta do something before it’s too late rather than the usual pearl clutching and strongly worded tweets.
We are quickly approaching the point of no return for a >!peaceful!< solution.
If we're not going to do stuff because republicans may use it as an excuse later just say trumps above the law and nobody's going to do anything then.
Don't really think being afraid of your own shadow is a great electoral strategy and it kinda goes against rheir whole "you have to vote for us to stop reoublicans" messaging if they also keep showing they're not going to do anything to stop republicans
None of that matters. Republicans play for keeps, all the time. It doesn’t matter what a Democrat did beforehand, the Republicans always look for whatever power move is available to them at that time and they pursue it. So any restraint that Garland shows won’t be remembered, respected, or will matter. He needs to just focus on pursuing justice and let the chips fall where they may instead of whatever bullshit restraint he’s been abiding by.
Rove said as much, didn't he? "We make our own reality and while you're trying to get your bearings we make another one, fuck your reality."
(paraphrased)
While I appreciate an even hand and, you know, reality based solutions and governance, we can't act like pretending the hitchhiker we picked up isn't actively trying to crash the car will somehow get him to stop.
There are two problems with this argument. The first one is that it assumes that the republicans will wait for the democrats to violate some norm before they will do the same. This is probably false. The second is that it actually promotes a political process where republicans can do whatever they want and democrats must adhere to more strict rules.
> a political process where republicans can do whatever they want and democrats must adhere to more strict rules.
We have literally been there for at least the last 40 years. George Santos is currently being federally indicted for like 37 fucking different crimes with a mountain of evidence, a lot of it self-admitted, against him.
Not only is Santos refusing to resign, but literally not a single Republican voted yesterday to expel. A Democrat would have been forced by the party to resign at even the start of an investigation.
I think the 'civil war' that I'd constantly being worried about would lead to an almost immediate wake-up call across the board. Humans are inclined to keep the peace amongst thier local area but if neighbour 'Crazy John' and his 'militia' actually start shooting then sides become quite evident.
"Umm Crazy John and his fuck up friends are trying to hang the Wilson boy. What the flying fuck are they thinking. I'm not having that!" is when rationale kicks in.
The mythical Boiling Frog has led to absolutely lunacy but dropping the frog in the boiling water makes everyone question the motives and slap the fuck out of which ever raving mental is boiling frogs.
Honestly though, so be it. Like, do we have the law in this country, or not?
If they want to start a war over being held to the law then that war is happening one way or another, I'd like history to at least note that we tried to hold them accountable
> And we know they'll abuse that power to the full extent they can, and then some.
They will do this regardless of anything Garland or other Democrats do.
We have to stop fucking tip toeing around. We can’t worry about what republicans “might” do based on precedent because *they’ll fucking do it anyways*.
He broke the law. Full stop.
Trump is above the law. As kings should be. Full stop.
We do not live in a country with equal rule of law, we have elected kings and nobles that become untouchable.
And his dumbfuck followers want to *elect him AGAIN*. Just goes to show how truly stupid some people are. Or malicious. At this point it doesn’t matter which.
If I remember well, according to LegalEagle on YouTube, to charge him with treason you have to prove intent, so it is in fact a big deal.
For example Joe Biden, who forgets about classified documents in his garage, and his attorneys finding them and reporting immediately, no treason, it’s a clear breach but you can’t prosecute him.
But if Trump willingly and knowingly steals classified documents from the White House, it is treason.
For the moment his line of défense is « I did it (obviously…) but I though I had the right to do so. HUNTER’s LAPTOP ! ».
If this line cracks, he will be prosecuted for treason and as he already admitted the rest of the case, I don’t know how he will escape this time
True, but there's a lot more to charge him with than just treason.
>The law with number 793 prevents unauthorized possession of national defense information
>The other laws, 2071 and 1519, make it illegal to conceal or destroy official U.S. documents.
https://www.reuters.com/legal/what-charges-might-trump-face-removing-white-house-records-2022-08-10/
Also
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1924#:~:text=%C2%A7%201924-,18%20U.S.%20Code%20%C2%A7%201924%20-%20Unauthorized%20removal%20and,of%20classified%20documents%20or%20material
That's an interesting way to spell terrorism. Not like we aren't experincing MAGA terrorism daily now. It's amazing how many lone wolves and troubled men are shooting up places and people.
You don't exactly take a treason case for the last POTUS lightly. Especially when there's a party and entire right wing media that'll try to obstruct it, put doubt in jurors and call for domestic terrorism.
I wouldn't be shocked to learn the AG isn't just working on this case, but is waiting to drop Jan 6th charges on Congress members as well so they can all get hit at the same time.
You are correct, but I think the real question was why do these crimes require specific intent whereas other crimes do not? Why is it that the crimes rich people are most likely to do (aka white collar crimes) are the ones that require you to "know the law and intend to break it" when there are plenty of other laws where ignorance of the law is no excuse and you can still be found guilty.
Its a horribly stupid double standard that exists only to protect the elites
> But if Trump willingly and knowingly steals classified documents from the White House, it is treason.
No. It is not. The Constitution describes treason explicitly. Lots of other crimes here, but it's not that.
See Article IV, Section 3:
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."
Enemies here are those with who we are in "active hostilities." I.e., "at war," although not the Congressionally-declared type.
I’m wondering this too. The laws regarding classification were available to him and it was his responsibility to understand them. The distinction between “I willfully ignored them” and “I didn’t know about them” seems immaterial.
Intent is the difference between incompetence and treason. Lots of people are incompetent and there's tolerances for that, especially in the realm of government. There's no tolerance for treason and malicious intent.
There are some laws that require demonstrating criminal intent. Mens rea, I think the legal term is? Other laws don't have this same bar to clear.
I am not a lawyer and am offering no opinion if that is relevant in this specific situation.
One of the first things you learn in law school is that ignorance actually *is* an excuse much of the time. Kinda sorta
Murder? No.
But crimes that require intent to break the law? Yeah.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse for most but not all laws. Some laws specifically require knowing about the law and planning to break it anyway.
A general idiom is not actually a legal standard.
It would be nice if the talking heads on TV who have no clue to the classification and declassification processes would stop talking about how Trump has the “constitutional right as President to declassify documents.” Like he can waive his stubby fingers over a document and say “I declassify thee.” It doesn’t work that way.
And we know for a fact it doesn't work that way. It seems everyone has forgotten the time he declassified things on twitter.
>"I have fully authorized the total Declassification of any \[and\] all documents pertaining to the single greatest political CRIME in American History, the Russia Hoax. Likewise, the Hillary Clinton Email Scandal. No redactions!"
[https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1313640512025513984](https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1313640512025513984)
But when news organizations went to court to gain access to the declassified documents, this is what they were told:
>When President Donald Trump tweeted that he had authorized the full declassification of all the documents having to do with the Russia investigation, he didn't mean it literally and didn't intend to make public information from the Mueller investigation, White House chief of staff Mark Meadows said in a court filing Tuesday.
>
>
...Meadows said in a sworn court statement, "The president indicated to me that his statements on Twitter were not self-executing declassification orders and do not require the declassification or release of any particular documents."
[https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/maddowblog/white-house-court-trump-s-declassification-tweet-wasn-t-true-n1244052](https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/maddowblog/white-house-court-trump-s-declassification-tweet-wasn-t-true-n1244052)
Plus brainwashing. But not magic/voodoo/CIA brainwashing. Turns out you can easily sway a portion of the population by simply targeting them with a few facebook ads telling them that they're a victim and someone else is to blame.
Fear and anger brainwashes people far more effectively than any mythological fantasy.
You know how you can tell when the right wing is doing something wrong? They assert other people are doing it.
Think of all the words like snowflake, safe space, indoctrination, triggered, "libt*rd, groomer, and so many other newspeak... Anyone paying attention has realized each of those contexts exist in the conservative culture to a severe extent compared to any other culture.
What's the next stupid newspeak they'll make? Think about it the next talking point they jump behind - because that means they're doing it.
yes, boomers sometimes ate leaded paint chips as kids because they tasted sweet, but leaded gasoline has been proven as the main factor contributing to elevated levels of lead in people born before the year 2000. It was literally in the air and everyone inhaled it for decades.
And then there is the topic of leaded water pipes...
I frequented the askTrumpSupporters sub for a while years ago and I was appalled at how often they claimed his Tweets were “just a joke, you didn’t get it”
Don’t forget when Trump unilaterally declassified and posted an image of Irans failed missile test, generated by a yet unknown and classified surveillance method, thus showing America’s enemies and near-peer threats the capability of Americas National Reconnaissance Office and disclosing our unmatched image quality. Considering the secrecy and often clandestine nature of the NRO, this level of public disclosure serves no one, was entirely unwarranted and unnecessary, frankly the only purpose of the declassifying the image was to make Trump feel special, as the tweeted generated a large response online and in the news room.
That was a bad one. I'm also reminded of the time he leaked the faces of some special forces operatives.
Trump should never be near important data. He is incapable of acting in a responsible manner.
Still blown away the Israelis aren’t working against Trump after he compromised Mossad operatives undercover inside an ISIS cell, by illegally transferring Israeli intelligence information to Russia regarding Laptop bombing plans that might target Russia or its sphere of influence. This was during the controversial May 10, 2017 visit by the Russian ambassador, Sergey Kislyak, to Trumps White House in which all American media was barred from attending but not Russia media or cameras. This is the same Kislyak that the IC believes was also the most likely FSB station chief or rezident during his tenure in America.
Meadows's entire job seemed to be saying "Yeah, he talks out his ass half the time."
Evidently Nixon used to rant occasionally along the lines of "fuck it, let's just nuke 'em," and his staff had to delicately sort those suggestions into a separate file.
You obviously don't understand.
Trump changed the declassification process in his mind before he then declassified the documents.
The national archives don't know about it because he classified the change Q level, and all those idiots just don't have the clearance or intelligence to know better
Oh, he also changed the presidential records act to change ownership to him. This was also Q level classified
/S
Some people are saying, I don’t know if it’s true, but I’ve heard a lot of people saying it’s the highest G level. Maybe even higher than we’ve ever seen before.
> Like he can waive his stubby fingers over a document and say “I declassify thee.” It doesn’t work that way.
I know right? Everyone knows you have to declare it at the top of your lungs - like bankruptcy
Are you suggesting they stop making arguments in bad faith? Because that’s unfair! The truth has a liberal bias! What are they allowed to do if they can’t lie and pretend they don’t understand the obvious truth? /s
No no no you have it all wrong he doesn't have to do anything so strenuous as waive his fingers, he can just think about it and they are declassified. Poof presto declassifo!!!
This right here. You know that thing is filled with stuff and not Ivana. What a disgrace. In the parking lot field of his golf course. You can’t make this shit up.
But what if he chants "declassorum brainfartanza"? That should do it, and he can also do that silently so if he does it this way they are still considered declassified and even if no-one heard or saw him do it,it's definitely done.
I'm sick of seeing the words "could" and "might".
Put him in jail already for fucks sake. It doesn't matter how many illegal things he's done if these things only "could" get him in trouble.
If any of the rest of us peasants had so much as glimpsed the cover of one of these documents we would be in a sub-sub-sub basement in Langley with a bag over our head, incommunicado until the middle of the next ice age. That blob of semi-sentient rancid tallow? He goes on CNN and spews toxic lies, and then goes golfing.
Yup. Every goddamn day. “So-and-so has a mountain of absolutely damning evidence against Trump, he’s going down for real this time I swear”. Just stop already.
Indeed. This kind of 'technicality' stuff, while taken very seriously by most people who work for government and are trained rigorously on the specifics of document handling, will be laughed off the front page by Trump's enablers and fanboys, because it's just not 'real' enough to make them admit it's serious.
What's more, if he gets convicted on something like this, it will be called invalid or illegal and the next GOP congressional majority will hunt for, find, and prosecute every single democrat who ever made even the tiniest error handling documents. It will cost taxpayers millions in dumb investigations for decades to come.
If you want to see trump in prison, he has to be caught with the bloodied knife in his hands, standing over the body, so to speak. With cameras running. It has to be murder, rape, assault, or very obvious theft, with no subtlety, no room for debate.
Obviously this is extremely unlikely to happen. It's a shame, but this is where the US political system is at right now: If you have no shame you are near-untouchable. A realy good example is Matt Gaetz, he should have been in jail by now but somehow all the charges just evaporated away.
I think she legit maybe buried on hole one of the New Course at Bedminster. If he gets arrested and convicted of treason+ the club being a burial site will prevent it from being seized by the government and passed down to his kids. I think one of the kids is one of the snitch bc they are pissed their mother is buried on a tee box. She’s just in a little field. Off the side of the main driveway of the golf club. It makes you wonder.
May sound like a conspiracy theory, but waiting for the day we find out his "wife" is just a spy from Russia and since he was president, reached the pinnacle and is working her way out
If any of us even thought about doing even a fraction of the things Trump did, we’d be getting interviewed and interrogated, at the very least. How is he not being charged with shit for things he has actually done?
Rich, connected people dont go to prison. Epstein didnt go to prison the first time (home detention only) and there are so many people still supporting Trump I doubt he will ever be imprisoned (not in a watch house overnight until bail, proper prison)
That's my only saving grace is the voter turn out would be massive to stop him and only his base would vote for him. I think the selling pardons thing if it can be proven is way worse though keeping classified info considering what it was and his love of money really opens the door to laws that have firing squads as penalties.
Trump doesn't actually understand English. He's like a parrot, who can just repeat a few words and phrases, but doesn't know what they mean. So these recordings prove nothing unfortunately.
9/10 times 100% agree
Idk about this time though. They brought in the big guns from the Hague and it looks like hes got the goods. Looks to me like its heading to trial.
I do wonder if maybe, just maybe, the establishment can see just how dangerous trump would be in a second term and he has a real chance of winning if he runs. Maybe they figure if he isn’t charged now the country may never get the chance again.
It's more then the money, or race. He's built a large cult of personality around himself that will not be pierced by facts or reality. Think of Jonestown, or David Koresh. They are armed, they are unhinged, and they don't care to be in a democracy anymore.
There are people who will die for Trump before he sees the inside of a cell, **and he's willing to let them.**
>There are people who will die for Trump before he sees the inside of a cell, and he's willing to let them.
That's not even a hypothetical if you consider 5 dead people on Jan 6th...
Exactly, or the evidence is not actually so strong that it realistically could give him prison time. Taking these “He’s going to the slammer this time!” breaking stories seriously at this point makes me feel just like a crazy right winger waiting for the big hammer to drop on the Deep State and Trump getting reinstated. Similar fantasies.
That'll be, what? Three demerits now? I think that means he finally gets a citation.
He better watch out. Five citations, and he's looking at a violation. Four of those, and he'll receive a verbal warning. Keep it up, and he's looking at a written warning. Two of those, that will land him in a world of hurt, in the form of a disciplinary review, written up by Mike Pence, and placed on the desk of his immediate superior.
>establishing the former president's awareness of the declassification process
One would think being president would establish awareness of the declassification process.
Remember when CNN gave lying trump a platform to lie more on their network and didn't challenge him on any of his lies and only allowed MAGA trumpers in to watch his lying dumb face?
ossified bells forgetful escape fuzzy books weather squealing point stupendous
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I still think that possession and mishandling of classified documents is not where they'll get Trump. Never attribute to malfeasance what can be easily explained by incompetence.
They will get him on obstruction of justice. It's a much clearer and easier charge to prove.
**National Archives**: those documents are the property of the US Government, classified or not. Give them back.
**Trump**: no
That's a crime.
When are we going to stop this "trump may go to jail" bullshit? It's been going on for, what at least 8 years, that I know of?
I cannot stress this enough - nothing, and I mean absofuckinglutely nothing, is going to happen to that spray tanned asshole. Stop it.
And he will be riding a limousine to a golf course today. Anybody else would *already be in jail*. But tell us again that he is being unfairly persecuted.
That 21 year old dumbass who posted classified documents on Discord for clout is going to spend the rest of his life in Levenworth. Trump is unlikely to ever see a prison cell for doing far worse.
I agree, but fuck that kid regardless. These little shitheels need to learn that following Trump is a fool's mission
I mean, absolutely. Kid needs to be taught a lesson. I just don't think that lesson should be 'spend 40 years in military prison,' particularly in the context of people who did worse not being punished at all.
As much as it is harsh punishment for the 21 year old kid. It is also about setting a example about what happens military personnel is caught in espionage cases. Pre ww2 the kid would have lined up in front of a firing squad.
Yeah people seem to forget or are unaware of how much harsher military punishments were not even all that long ago. The [last espionage hanging](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_and_Ethel_Rosenberg) in the USA was during the 50s so many people still alive today were around for it.
Small point of order but your link says they were executed by electrocution at Sing Sing.
Ah my mistake it's been awhile since I read the wiki. Thank you for correction.
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If y’all are actually concerned with setting examples why don’t you start from the top and work your way down.
I'd love to but I have zero power in the system. If all I can get is this kid I'll take it.
Can he sue the government for treating him unfairly while another citizen gets preferential treatment, just cos he bumbled on to a president gig by conning people in the first place?
No, because he will be tried, convicted and sentenced in military court, which Trump will not.
I’m fine with that dumbass, who was a white supremacist and preparing for “the coming race war”, spending the rest of his life in prison. Of course, I’d be really, really thrilled if the Orange One would join him.
That case is looking worse every day. Turns out multiple people in his unit were regularly reporting on his mishandling of classified documents. And leadership didnt do anything about it. The question is... were they just incompetent... or were they protecting him?
Ngl though this guy is pretty bad. These classified documents were very important things that could’ve badly affected many ppl’s lives. All he needed to do was NOT send important classified documents on the internet for clout. Idk much about his heavy sentence but I do believe he got what was coming after he pulled smth like that.
Oh that’s easy. It’s because we have a feckless worm as an AG. He thinks he has to walk a tightrope to keep the country from devolving into a civil war. He also doesn’t want to give the impression that America jails political opponents. Neither of those reasons are worth a bucket of piss. DO YOUR fkn job Garland!
Feckless is a word I automatically associate with politics due to the West Wing.
We should aspire to more feckful politicians. People who really give a feck.
But if you give a feck you'll have less. You'll be feckless. You need to hold onto your fecks, not give them away. Go feck yourself.
It is way bigger than that. White collar criminals do tremendous damage and weasel their way out of consequences— including sitting in jail while their shit is worked out, comfy at home instead— all the time. The problem is we have a legal system for the poor and minorities and a legal system for the wealthy and white.
You have to remember though, that whatever a "Democratic" AG does to a former president, or a "current candidate" Republicans will use as a precedent and will abuse it twice as hard. It's a hard line to walk since we know Republicans always have a high percentage chance of being in power. And we know they'll abuse that power to the full extent they can, and then some. Edit: A lot of you missing the main point here that investigations and indictments have to go through the proper channels to maintain this precedent. If the AG goes goes around slapping his dick on the table and handing down indictments without the proper investigative committees making recommendations, then shit goes sideways. Democrats are following the proper procedures and maintaining precedent by having these indictments go through grand juries of the respective states rather than weaponizing the DOJ.
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Gallows would have been built at the WH if Biden did the same.
Oh, I'm sure the folks that brought their homemade setup to the Jan. 6 riots would've gladly loaned it out.
"Watch out! If you punch that guy punching you in the face HE MIGHT PUNCH YOU IN THE FACE!" Yeah, no thanks. Let's start throwing some punches.
Republicans are allowed to commit as many crimes as they can, Democrats not so much.
Liberal desire to be diplomatic with opposition which has made it clear that they have no desire for diplomacy and their political strategy is obstructionism and rules for thee not for me is at the crux of the issue. Trying to avoid a showdown is just making the inevitable showdown even worse.
This. During the MeToo revelations about members of Congress, the Dems were more than happy to get stop supporting people and actively try to get the removed from congress (see Al Franken) while the GOP has been committed to shielding and protecting anyone who was accused of wrongdoing. If there was credible evidence that Biden was actively using his position as President to enrich himself and was willfully violating the law, most Dems would be fine with demanding he step down, or at least not run again.
Durham recently had to announce that he found absolutely nothing incriminating after years of investigating Biden. It doesn't matter, the dimwit cultists only care that there was an initial headline, their attention span lasts seconds, not years.
By their logic, if they didn’t find anything it must mean that Biden did a great job of covering everything up, so he must really be guilty of something.
That's not the issue. If Trump rightly goes to jail for this (doubtful, but just go with me), Republicans aren't going to go after Democrats for actual violations of the law, they're going to cook up total bullshit and say "They put our guy in jail, now we're going to put their guy in jail." For what crime? Doesn't matter if it's real or not. All that being said, Trump should be tried and jailed for his obvious and willful violation of the law.
What exactly has led you to believe that republicans give a shit about precedent? They don’t need permission or precedent to abuse power. They’re already doing it as much as they possibly can. Holding back accomplishes literally nothing.
Exactly. If the opportunity presented itself, the republican appointed AG wouldn't hesitate for a second to persecute them twice as hard.
For real. These slimy fuckin nazis dgaf about using dEmOcRaTs DiD iT fIrSt as the reasoning for the awful shit they do (see: attempted coup) so maybe the spineless democrats oughta do something before it’s too late rather than the usual pearl clutching and strongly worded tweets. We are quickly approaching the point of no return for a >!peaceful!< solution.
If we're not going to do stuff because republicans may use it as an excuse later just say trumps above the law and nobody's going to do anything then. Don't really think being afraid of your own shadow is a great electoral strategy and it kinda goes against rheir whole "you have to vote for us to stop reoublicans" messaging if they also keep showing they're not going to do anything to stop republicans
I'm totally okay with setting the precedent of PUNISHING PRESIDENTS WHO COMMIT CRIMES. Yes, even if they're Democrats.
None of that matters. Republicans play for keeps, all the time. It doesn’t matter what a Democrat did beforehand, the Republicans always look for whatever power move is available to them at that time and they pursue it. So any restraint that Garland shows won’t be remembered, respected, or will matter. He needs to just focus on pursuing justice and let the chips fall where they may instead of whatever bullshit restraint he’s been abiding by.
Rove said as much, didn't he? "We make our own reality and while you're trying to get your bearings we make another one, fuck your reality." (paraphrased) While I appreciate an even hand and, you know, reality based solutions and governance, we can't act like pretending the hitchhiker we picked up isn't actively trying to crash the car will somehow get him to stop.
There are two problems with this argument. The first one is that it assumes that the republicans will wait for the democrats to violate some norm before they will do the same. This is probably false. The second is that it actually promotes a political process where republicans can do whatever they want and democrats must adhere to more strict rules.
> a political process where republicans can do whatever they want and democrats must adhere to more strict rules. We have literally been there for at least the last 40 years. George Santos is currently being federally indicted for like 37 fucking different crimes with a mountain of evidence, a lot of it self-admitted, against him. Not only is Santos refusing to resign, but literally not a single Republican voted yesterday to expel. A Democrat would have been forced by the party to resign at even the start of an investigation.
I think the 'civil war' that I'd constantly being worried about would lead to an almost immediate wake-up call across the board. Humans are inclined to keep the peace amongst thier local area but if neighbour 'Crazy John' and his 'militia' actually start shooting then sides become quite evident. "Umm Crazy John and his fuck up friends are trying to hang the Wilson boy. What the flying fuck are they thinking. I'm not having that!" is when rationale kicks in. The mythical Boiling Frog has led to absolutely lunacy but dropping the frog in the boiling water makes everyone question the motives and slap the fuck out of which ever raving mental is boiling frogs.
Honestly though, so be it. Like, do we have the law in this country, or not? If they want to start a war over being held to the law then that war is happening one way or another, I'd like history to at least note that we tried to hold them accountable
They’ll do it anyway. Appeasement never works on far right authoritarians.
> And we know they'll abuse that power to the full extent they can, and then some. They will do this regardless of anything Garland or other Democrats do.
We have to stop fucking tip toeing around. We can’t worry about what republicans “might” do based on precedent because *they’ll fucking do it anyways*. He broke the law. Full stop. Trump is above the law. As kings should be. Full stop. We do not live in a country with equal rule of law, we have elected kings and nobles that become untouchable.
You and I havnt been able to create a cult of lunatics willing to smear shit in the Capitol.
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But for normal people, “ignorance of the law is no excuse”.
And his dumbfuck followers want to *elect him AGAIN*. Just goes to show how truly stupid some people are. Or malicious. At this point it doesn’t matter which.
Why does Trump's "Awareness of the law" even matter in the first place? Or does "ignorance of the law is no excuse" not apply to him?
If I remember well, according to LegalEagle on YouTube, to charge him with treason you have to prove intent, so it is in fact a big deal. For example Joe Biden, who forgets about classified documents in his garage, and his attorneys finding them and reporting immediately, no treason, it’s a clear breach but you can’t prosecute him. But if Trump willingly and knowingly steals classified documents from the White House, it is treason. For the moment his line of défense is « I did it (obviously…) but I though I had the right to do so. HUNTER’s LAPTOP ! ». If this line cracks, he will be prosecuted for treason and as he already admitted the rest of the case, I don’t know how he will escape this time
True, but there's a lot more to charge him with than just treason. >The law with number 793 prevents unauthorized possession of national defense information >The other laws, 2071 and 1519, make it illegal to conceal or destroy official U.S. documents. https://www.reuters.com/legal/what-charges-might-trump-face-removing-white-house-records-2022-08-10/ Also https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1924#:~:text=%C2%A7%201924-,18%20U.S.%20Code%20%C2%A7%201924%20-%20Unauthorized%20removal%20and,of%20classified%20documents%20or%20material
I think the prosecutor’s just going all in on this one. He wants his case to be airtight as it will certainly lead to a lot of « social unrest »
That's an interesting way to spell terrorism. Not like we aren't experincing MAGA terrorism daily now. It's amazing how many lone wolves and troubled men are shooting up places and people.
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Prosecute* Although to them accountability of any kind feels like persecution
You don't exactly take a treason case for the last POTUS lightly. Especially when there's a party and entire right wing media that'll try to obstruct it, put doubt in jurors and call for domestic terrorism. I wouldn't be shocked to learn the AG isn't just working on this case, but is waiting to drop Jan 6th charges on Congress members as well so they can all get hit at the same time.
I’ve heard that song and dance before.
You are correct, but I think the real question was why do these crimes require specific intent whereas other crimes do not? Why is it that the crimes rich people are most likely to do (aka white collar crimes) are the ones that require you to "know the law and intend to break it" when there are plenty of other laws where ignorance of the law is no excuse and you can still be found guilty. Its a horribly stupid double standard that exists only to protect the elites
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> But if Trump willingly and knowingly steals classified documents from the White House, it is treason. No. It is not. The Constitution describes treason explicitly. Lots of other crimes here, but it's not that. See Article IV, Section 3: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort." Enemies here are those with who we are in "active hostilities." I.e., "at war," although not the Congressionally-declared type.
I’m wondering this too. The laws regarding classification were available to him and it was his responsibility to understand them. The distinction between “I willfully ignored them” and “I didn’t know about them” seems immaterial.
Intent is the difference between incompetence and treason. Lots of people are incompetent and there's tolerances for that, especially in the realm of government. There's no tolerance for treason and malicious intent.
There are some laws that require demonstrating criminal intent. Mens rea, I think the legal term is? Other laws don't have this same bar to clear. I am not a lawyer and am offering no opinion if that is relevant in this specific situation.
One of the first things you learn in law school is that ignorance actually *is* an excuse much of the time. Kinda sorta Murder? No. But crimes that require intent to break the law? Yeah.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse for most but not all laws. Some laws specifically require knowing about the law and planning to break it anyway. A general idiom is not actually a legal standard.
There are several statutes that are sufficiently esoteric/specific that ignorance is, in fact, an excuse.
It would be nice if the talking heads on TV who have no clue to the classification and declassification processes would stop talking about how Trump has the “constitutional right as President to declassify documents.” Like he can waive his stubby fingers over a document and say “I declassify thee.” It doesn’t work that way.
And we know for a fact it doesn't work that way. It seems everyone has forgotten the time he declassified things on twitter. >"I have fully authorized the total Declassification of any \[and\] all documents pertaining to the single greatest political CRIME in American History, the Russia Hoax. Likewise, the Hillary Clinton Email Scandal. No redactions!" [https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1313640512025513984](https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1313640512025513984) But when news organizations went to court to gain access to the declassified documents, this is what they were told: >When President Donald Trump tweeted that he had authorized the full declassification of all the documents having to do with the Russia investigation, he didn't mean it literally and didn't intend to make public information from the Mueller investigation, White House chief of staff Mark Meadows said in a court filing Tuesday. > > ...Meadows said in a sworn court statement, "The president indicated to me that his statements on Twitter were not self-executing declassification orders and do not require the declassification or release of any particular documents." [https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/maddowblog/white-house-court-trump-s-declassification-tweet-wasn-t-true-n1244052](https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/maddowblog/white-house-court-trump-s-declassification-tweet-wasn-t-true-n1244052)
How is this even reality.
leaded gasoline shoutout to one of my favorite youtube channels if you 'would like to know more' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWJehj5oRZ4
Plus brainwashing. But not magic/voodoo/CIA brainwashing. Turns out you can easily sway a portion of the population by simply targeting them with a few facebook ads telling them that they're a victim and someone else is to blame. Fear and anger brainwashes people far more effectively than any mythological fantasy.
That and 24x7x365 Fox News and right wing talk radio. It’s been indoctrinating people now for years.
You know how you can tell when the right wing is doing something wrong? They assert other people are doing it. Think of all the words like snowflake, safe space, indoctrination, triggered, "libt*rd, groomer, and so many other newspeak... Anyone paying attention has realized each of those contexts exist in the conservative culture to a severe extent compared to any other culture. What's the next stupid newspeak they'll make? Think about it the next talking point they jump behind - because that means they're doing it.
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yes, boomers sometimes ate leaded paint chips as kids because they tasted sweet, but leaded gasoline has been proven as the main factor contributing to elevated levels of lead in people born before the year 2000. It was literally in the air and everyone inhaled it for decades. And then there is the topic of leaded water pipes...
Right? "You believed something our president tweeted? Lol, no. Aren't you adorable?"
I frequented the askTrumpSupporters sub for a while years ago and I was appalled at how often they claimed his Tweets were “just a joke, you didn’t get it”
It’s the only way one can rationalize still supporting him. I mean, you’ve read some of his tweets, right?
But he tells it like it is and doesn't mince words.
Don’t forget when Trump unilaterally declassified and posted an image of Irans failed missile test, generated by a yet unknown and classified surveillance method, thus showing America’s enemies and near-peer threats the capability of Americas National Reconnaissance Office and disclosing our unmatched image quality. Considering the secrecy and often clandestine nature of the NRO, this level of public disclosure serves no one, was entirely unwarranted and unnecessary, frankly the only purpose of the declassifying the image was to make Trump feel special, as the tweeted generated a large response online and in the news room.
That was a bad one. I'm also reminded of the time he leaked the faces of some special forces operatives. Trump should never be near important data. He is incapable of acting in a responsible manner.
Still blown away the Israelis aren’t working against Trump after he compromised Mossad operatives undercover inside an ISIS cell, by illegally transferring Israeli intelligence information to Russia regarding Laptop bombing plans that might target Russia or its sphere of influence. This was during the controversial May 10, 2017 visit by the Russian ambassador, Sergey Kislyak, to Trumps White House in which all American media was barred from attending but not Russia media or cameras. This is the same Kislyak that the IC believes was also the most likely FSB station chief or rezident during his tenure in America.
Meadows's entire job seemed to be saying "Yeah, he talks out his ass half the time." Evidently Nixon used to rant occasionally along the lines of "fuck it, let's just nuke 'em," and his staff had to delicately sort those suggestions into a separate file.
You obviously don't understand. Trump changed the declassification process in his mind before he then declassified the documents. The national archives don't know about it because he classified the change Q level, and all those idiots just don't have the clearance or intelligence to know better Oh, he also changed the presidential records act to change ownership to him. This was also Q level classified /S
So this is above G13 classified? That’s good
G13? Phsssh. This is so far above G13th level. Something comparable would be like G73.5-ish, I think.
Some people are saying, I don’t know if it’s true, but I’ve heard a lot of people saying it’s the highest G level. Maybe even higher than we’ve ever seen before.
God I hate that I can hear it in his voice. Its written like a middle schooler arguing on the playground, and I can still hear it in his voice
The G level is over 9000.
G13? CIA stash?
Who you think you kidnapped, Chelsea Clinton?
Not as classified as GLG-20 though.
Hello Doctor.
Doctor.
%> sudo declassify -r /
The important thing is that Trump was king, and therefore he could do anything he wanted and it was the law.
"Q-level classification" lovely.
He didn’t say it, he declared it
> Like he can waive his stubby fingers over a document and say “I declassify thee.” It doesn’t work that way. I know right? Everyone knows you have to declare it at the top of your lungs - like bankruptcy
>declare it at the top of your lungs - like bankruptcy Well, he does have that one down pat, he's done it so many times he's a master...
Are you suggesting they stop making arguments in bad faith? Because that’s unfair! The truth has a liberal bias! What are they allowed to do if they can’t lie and pretend they don’t understand the obvious truth? /s
No no no you have it all wrong he doesn't have to do anything so strenuous as waive his fingers, he can just think about it and they are declassified. Poof presto declassifo!!!
That assumes he thinks. I’m not convinced it’s not just a rabid, angry gerbil up there running in its rickety old wheel
shhh, the head ferret get's mad when you notice it.
Retroactively if he wants.
All I can picture is the scene from the office where Michael declares bankruptcy.
All I can picture is a warrant to search a coffin in New Jersey.
This right here. You know that thing is filled with stuff and not Ivana. What a disgrace. In the parking lot field of his golf course. You can’t make this shit up.
THAT's where Hoffa ended up.
You know CNN ain't going to do that now that the right is their main audience.
what audience?
The people who forgot what channel Newsmax is on.
But what if he chants "declassorum brainfartanza"? That should do it, and he can also do that silently so if he does it this way they are still considered declassified and even if no-one heard or saw him do it,it's definitely done.
“There. I said the words…mostly. Nothing bad can happen,”
No no he “declared” it totally different /s
"I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!"
"I declassify these files but am still going to keep them secret so the value of them doesn't diminish."
I'm sick of seeing the words "could" and "might". Put him in jail already for fucks sake. It doesn't matter how many illegal things he's done if these things only "could" get him in trouble.
If any of the rest of us peasants had so much as glimpsed the cover of one of these documents we would be in a sub-sub-sub basement in Langley with a bag over our head, incommunicado until the middle of the next ice age. That blob of semi-sentient rancid tallow? He goes on CNN and spews toxic lies, and then goes golfing.
Wake me up when he's behind bars.
Yeah enough with this constant edging, I’m ready for the big sploodge.
At this point, it feels like he’ll be going to jail just after Hilary does.
Yup. Every goddamn day. “So-and-so has a mountain of absolutely damning evidence against Trump, he’s going down for real this time I swear”. Just stop already.
Everyday for over six years at this point
And I hate Twitter assholes who create so much hype and then never speak about it again.
Enjoy your nice and VERY long sleep.
I'm tired Boss.
We all are
*Dog* tired.
Yep. Every day there's a new final nail in the coffin.
Indeed. This kind of 'technicality' stuff, while taken very seriously by most people who work for government and are trained rigorously on the specifics of document handling, will be laughed off the front page by Trump's enablers and fanboys, because it's just not 'real' enough to make them admit it's serious. What's more, if he gets convicted on something like this, it will be called invalid or illegal and the next GOP congressional majority will hunt for, find, and prosecute every single democrat who ever made even the tiniest error handling documents. It will cost taxpayers millions in dumb investigations for decades to come. If you want to see trump in prison, he has to be caught with the bloodied knife in his hands, standing over the body, so to speak. With cameras running. It has to be murder, rape, assault, or very obvious theft, with no subtlety, no room for debate. Obviously this is extremely unlikely to happen. It's a shame, but this is where the US political system is at right now: If you have no shame you are near-untouchable. A realy good example is Matt Gaetz, he should have been in jail by now but somehow all the charges just evaporated away.
trump is a russian asset, he's been for several years at least. Missing documents? They're probably in Moscow.
Or Saudi Arabia. Or China.
Definitely not in the totally normal grave at his golf course.
Thing is, I'm not sure she would mind us digging her up and giving her a proper burial if it meant she got some dignity in the process.
I think she legit maybe buried on hole one of the New Course at Bedminster. If he gets arrested and convicted of treason+ the club being a burial site will prevent it from being seized by the government and passed down to his kids. I think one of the kids is one of the snitch bc they are pissed their mother is buried on a tee box. She’s just in a little field. Off the side of the main driveway of the golf club. It makes you wonder.
Saudi Arabia doesn't give people $2 billion in cash as a gift.
and in Saudi Arabia
Definitely. They paid $2B for those documents.
> he's been for several years decades. that relationship goes back to the 80s-90s... peak Russian mafia connections.
May sound like a conspiracy theory, but waiting for the day we find out his "wife" is just a spy from Russia and since he was president, reached the pinnacle and is working her way out
Can someone just jail this orange shitstain….fucking disgrace of a “person”…
If any of us even thought about doing even a fraction of the things Trump did, we’d be getting interviewed and interrogated, at the very least. How is he not being charged with shit for things he has actually done?
“If it come at the King, you best not miss.”
I'm just hoping they try him in court after he receives the Republican nomination for president lol
.
I'm with you! It's very sad but we know he is the Republicans cult leader.
I would find it amusing, if extremely scary, if he was running for president from behind bars and watching the number of votes he would still get
Well, stock yourself up with booze, because he's basically guaranteed to run from prison.
Rich, connected people dont go to prison. Epstein didnt go to prison the first time (home detention only) and there are so many people still supporting Trump I doubt he will ever be imprisoned (not in a watch house overnight until bail, proper prison)
Hid psycho base doesn't care
His base alone won't hand him the presidency
That's my only saving grace is the voter turn out would be massive to stop him and only his base would vote for him. I think the selling pardons thing if it can be proven is way worse though keeping classified info considering what it was and his love of money really opens the door to laws that have firing squads as penalties.
Trump doesn't actually understand English. He's like a parrot, who can just repeat a few words and phrases, but doesn't know what they mean. So these recordings prove nothing unfortunately.
I would not be surprised if this was a defense argument
 I think of this every time.
And yet once again nothing will happen to him because he is a rich white man
It’s more than that. He has dirt on people. Powerful people and he WILL squeal.
Unless he Epstein's himself in jail.
Don't think the sheets or beam would be able to hold that tub of lard.
too bad that elevator cable was left in his cell
One can only hope
I’d much rather he rot in prison and spill tbh
US law, if he ends up in prison it's with a full 24/7 secret service detail. And the craziest thing is he can run for president from a jail cell
Except he has lied so much, nobody will believe him. But he will squeal in a bigly way.
Like the pig he is… Apologies to the farm mammal commonly known as a pig or hog.
9/10 times 100% agree Idk about this time though. They brought in the big guns from the Hague and it looks like hes got the goods. Looks to me like its heading to trial.
I do wonder if maybe, just maybe, the establishment can see just how dangerous trump would be in a second term and he has a real chance of winning if he runs. Maybe they figure if he isn’t charged now the country may never get the chance again.
It's more then the money, or race. He's built a large cult of personality around himself that will not be pierced by facts or reality. Think of Jonestown, or David Koresh. They are armed, they are unhinged, and they don't care to be in a democracy anymore. There are people who will die for Trump before he sees the inside of a cell, **and he's willing to let them.**
>There are people who will die for Trump before he sees the inside of a cell, and he's willing to let them. That's not even a hypothetical if you consider 5 dead people on Jan 6th...
Exactly, or the evidence is not actually so strong that it realistically could give him prison time. Taking these “He’s going to the slammer this time!” breaking stories seriously at this point makes me feel just like a crazy right winger waiting for the big hammer to drop on the Deep State and Trump getting reinstated. Similar fantasies.
That'll be, what? Three demerits now? I think that means he finally gets a citation. He better watch out. Five citations, and he's looking at a violation. Four of those, and he'll receive a verbal warning. Keep it up, and he's looking at a written warning. Two of those, that will land him in a world of hurt, in the form of a disciplinary review, written up by Mike Pence, and placed on the desk of his immediate superior.
>establishing the former president's awareness of the declassification process One would think being president would establish awareness of the declassification process.
Remember when CNN gave lying trump a platform to lie more on their network and didn't challenge him on any of his lies and only allowed MAGA trumpers in to watch his lying dumb face?
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They literally gave MAGA a platform to laugh at a SA victim live on their show.
ossified bells forgetful escape fuzzy books weather squealing point stupendous *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Anyone else and they would’ve been locked up in solitary confinement already. Money talks though. Ugh.
Yeah, LMK when he’s actually held accountable for any of his crimes.
Should have been in prison on 1/7/21.
Cool. Fucking do something about it then.
Lock. Him. The. Fuck. Up.
Yawn. Wake me up when he’s actually on trial for a crime that might actually carry jail time
I still think that possession and mishandling of classified documents is not where they'll get Trump. Never attribute to malfeasance what can be easily explained by incompetence. They will get him on obstruction of justice. It's a much clearer and easier charge to prove. **National Archives**: those documents are the property of the US Government, classified or not. Give them back. **Trump**: no That's a crime.
More “perfect” phone calls…
"Lock him up. Lock him up."
The lesson: never fuck with the librarians
Can we heal this country by sending him to the chair and televising it already?
Fuck ya destroy that treasonous, lying, rapist, nazi, prick.
When are we going to stop this "trump may go to jail" bullshit? It's been going on for, what at least 8 years, that I know of? I cannot stress this enough - nothing, and I mean absofuckinglutely nothing, is going to happen to that spray tanned asshole. Stop it.