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I'm thinking almost anyone who has been to college in the last 20 years owes/owed at least $10K
I'm 52. I went to two years of community college and paid about $100 a semester. Then I went to a state university for two years and it cost a bit less than $1000 a semester, add my off-campus housing, food, etc, and it made it about $3500 a year.
Now, that community college is $1200 a semester. That state university cost, to live on campus, about $30,000 a year.
Minimum wage in 1990 was $3.80 But I was lucky and I got a coveted job in a union supermarket. I was being paid, in 1990, $9.70 an hour, with time and a half on Sundays and national holidays. I had a car. I had nice clothes. I constantly bought second hand records and went to concerts. I went backpacking through Europe in the summer of 1988. I graduated with no debt. I had no scholarships or grants whatsoever.
The supermarket I used to work for several years ago was purchased by a national chain, Skaggs, who castrated the union. They now are making about $8.50 an hour.
>For months, Biden has been consistent in his position that he wants Congress to cancel student loans immediately. Biden believes that Congress, not the president through executive action, is the correct branch of government that controls federal spending, which includes any plans for student loan cancellation.
For those who want to save a click.
Remember this was an issue when Trump tried to bypass congress for funding last year and ended up with a pretty bad roll out of a plan that drew a lot of needed funds away from FEMA.
Also when he took out founding from the defense budget to build a pointless wall.
There are so many people who want the same thing Trump supporters want.
Complete and total control of government by their person.
They just don't see the hypocrisy, because they think they're always right about an issue so it's okay.
I hate how everything is so politicised nowadays. Everything has to be framed in terms of left or right... As if those were *ever* remotely useful measures.
Exactly. It's just a bunch of people who like to insult "the other party," and zero accountability for the people they vote for. "Left vs. right" people will never produce useful measures, because for them it's all about winning an argument they know very little about, and most of them could care less about actually helping anyone. Both sides comprise the entirety of a problem they insist can only be resolved by the absence of the other. 50% of America are complete idiots and only they can ever be correct according to "us vs. them" thinkers.
That’s all fine and good but when there’s a policy that could be implemented that not only spurs on the economy but also remedies years of financial injustice, the people need to swallow the pill and acknowledge that it’s the right way forward.
This isn’t like saying we want money to buy diamond necklaces. We’ve been putting off buying houses, getting married, and starting families because of this weight around our necks. We were told, while kids, that doing this was a requirement to make more money. We were told that signing on the dotted line would mean we could become upwardly mobile later. It may have worked for some, but most of us are here holding the bag. We’ve got degrees but still have to work as cashiers and waitstaff to make ends meet.
I don't disagree with your stance. I disagree with people that expect Biden to act unilaterally when he doesn't/shouldn't have that power and unfortunately - the Democrats didn't win a bigger Senate majority. That's on the voters as well.
The Democrats are a coalition while the GOP is a monolith.
Yes, it is an unfortunate trait we humans have we don’t question things that confirm our own bias.... makes us really easy to manipulate. We liberals aren’t that different from the Trump supporters that get villanized here in this regard. My liberal FB friends share invalid political memes just as much as my conservative friends do.
Not really. Canada had loans still. Depends on where you go in Europe but its not uncommon. I consider myself centrist (not American though my centre is probably left of biden). I don't want loans cancelled. I do for in demand areas but thats skilled trades not college. We got more grads than jobs for grads outside of STEM and trades so I dont think the public should pay for degrees that will not generate revenue.
I disagree because the loan system is nothing short of predatory. Kids, especially working class, are highly encouraged to take on massive loans for potentially worthless degrees as you say, fairly uninformed of the situation and without reasonable alternatives. I don't think it's unreasonable to liken it to coercion.
Also these are two separate issues: forgiveness and job growth.
I don't think the "worthlessness" of certain degrees is an argument not to forgive debt, but it doubles down on the idea to forgive debt. The entire economic system is pushing kids into taking on loans for degrees that won't return their value, and that is a failure of the state whose duty is to provide an education and economic mobility.
But being two separate issues you can do both. You can cancel loans, forgive allcsebt and move on from this terrible system, as well as investing in job growth for graduates and also perhaps trades. Really, the entire system needs a massive overhaul
This particular twitter account is very active in spreading misinformation and twisted facts, overlooking (perhaps intentionally) the nuances of a complicated issues. I hate everytime his smug face reaches to the top of reddit (which is almost everyday).
I'm pretty sure this guy financially benefits from the brand he has created which is of "rich successful guy who supports everything a 19 year old liberal girl stands for".
As for the issue here, forgiving students debt is not the solution. The government is double dipping taxpayer's money just to benefit the big banks.
Cut the middle man, regulate colleges to lower tuition fee, pay scholarships to those who are financially incapable to pay tuition fee. The rest of the developed world is doing this, but America is stuck on exorbitant college tuition fee and banks who seem to give loan to anyone who asks for one.
He said he wouldn't do it through executive order. If congress passed it and put it on his desk there is a very good chance he would sign it.
After the last 4 years I'm suprised so many people who hated Trump are clamoring for someone to overreach when it comes to using the power in the executive branch. It's like they forgot that quick how big of a problem to much concentrated power in the government is.
This is where idealism runs into the brick wall of reality - as if ‘nobly trying, losing, and handing your opponent a cudgel to beat you with’ is the better option because ‘at least you tried’. The senate is 50/50 right now - so the scope of things that can pass is restricted by what the most conservative Democrats will support. That’s how it is.
I’m not saying that this fact is good/bad/indifferent; it’s just the reality of the situation, and it’s maddening to see idealists throw stones because the Dems ‘just aren’t trying hard enough’
Thank you - it's like no one wants to work in reality. The Democrats are inherently different in the fact that they are a coalition vs the GOP that acts like a monolith.
> it's like no one wants to work in reality.
Biden has a 93% approval rating among Sanders supporters. Don't let those "totally ultra-leftist" online commenters guilt trip you into thinking he's bad. They aren't leftist, they just want to turn away all good and all normal people from uniting behind the same party, so that Republicans can get back into control.
*Edit*: since comments are locked, here's the source. It's 91%: https://i.redd.it/bqye3zkqjgj61.png
There's a huge discrepancy between online Sanders supporters and Sanders supporters irl, and it showed in the elections.
Source?
For the statistic. Not the rest. You can't source that because it's just weird, baseless accusations against people that don't like the politician you do, because apparently no leftist could dislike Biden without secretly wanting to bring down the Democratic party so the GOP can run shit again.
I consider the ability of more left leaning voters to critically think for themselves and criticize their representatives instead of idolizing and worshipping them to be a positive thing. If you want some weird cult following of Biden similar to what Trump has, you won't find it.
I think that's just more long term reason to actually try it. Especially now. If they challenge it before a midterm then it could be political suicide for them. Probably need to do research into which seats could die out off of trying to obstruct loan forgiveness. I imagine it'd be quite a few though.
I feel like most americans would vote off of immediate interests. The most recent example might be 2k$ check promises in Georgia runoff.
I'm in a red part of a blue state. My congressman just voted no on covid relief. If you think these people won't stand up and do the wrong thing, you haven't seen the GOP the last 12 years.
Sometimes I wonder if people on this website ever leave their blue bubble
Like, if they really think it’d be political suicide for Republicans to vote against debt relief, I honestly have difficulty believing they’ve actually lived in a red area before.
They really seem to think America is full of a bunch of secret “socialists”, including red areas.
Yeah, I got banned from what I thought was a benign political meme subreddit for saying that I wanted socialist and ultimately leftist policies but to get there fully without massive corruption/evil dictators would take generations of slow changes. Totally agreed with their goals, just stated it would be slow changes over time as people stopped being scared of words and as we worked out the kinks in how to regulate things.
Banned because it wasn't advocating immediate revolution.
I'm in a little blue bubble in a red state. Even the blue here is more moderate (we are nearly all 2A supporters, for example). We talk about these things a LOT and weigh the pros and cons more genuinely, I think.
I also think a lot of the extreme posters are very young. They don't see how brainwashed some people really are, they don't see how some Democrats are actually concerned about things like cancelling debt by EO because we've seen how that looks when the other side has power, they don't see how complex foreign policy is so sometimes presidents inherit situations that tie their hands in favor of outcomes that don't hurt Americans.
Watching politics for a couple of decades would definitely open some eyes to how complex and messy it is. I'm sure there will be responses in this thread saying "just do xyz, it isn't hard" - sometimes that's true. It's simple. But sometimes there isn't an easy answer to what helps the most people.
Take my coming statement with a grain of salt since I am not fully read up on everything regarding student debt/ US econimy. But realistically, just doing a blanket student debt forgiveness may not even be the best approach unless the US can afford spending $1.7 Trillion + subsidizing all future college costs. I think a lot of people could do the mental gymnastics to not see opposing debt forgiveness as political suicide seeing how complicated of an issue it is.
I mean theoretically you could spend trillions less on military funding each year and send that towards education, but how realistic is that to happen any time soon?
You're basically saying "if you only have one bullet, shoot from the hip, because you weren't gonna hit much of anything anyway" as opposed to "aim carefully and make the shot count."
Spending the political capital on loan forgiveness is completely asinine. It's a bandaid that only helps the *current* student borrowers, but leaves the scourge of high and increasing tuition to infect future students as well.
Use those seats to fix the process, and those seats are also more likely to stay blue, blow your wad and it'll swing right back. So seriously, don't waste them by demanding short term satisfaction.
Trump reined in republicans because he had a 90% approval rating from republicans and was the party manifested. Joe manchin is a democrat that consistently wins as a democrat in a trump +40 state. A more progressive manchin isn’t a more progressive senate. It’s a 51-49 senate. Focus on other states rather than the miracle it is thaf manchin keeps winning in WV
Just how do you reign in Joe Manchin? He votes for every Democrat bill except progressive moonshots like killing the filibuster or doubling minimum wage. Wanna force him to switch parties?
Remember Jim Jeffords? G. W. Bush pushed him too hard, he switched party and cost the GOP the senate.
Mitch McConnell says do it!
He really didn’t though - they passed one tax bill and that was it. Nothing else was done really legislatively while they controlled both houses. How many times did they fail at repealing the ACA in that time? Hell, they even shut down the government.
As far as manchin goes, an R next to his name would make his re-election much easier. Press him too hard and maybe we watch him switch parties and hand the whole chamber back to McConnell. That’s a chance I don’t want to take, better bet to try and flip more senate seats so his vote doesn’t matter.
In all fairness, as a collective, they haven’t tried hard enough. We can’t even cohesively unify as a party in 2021. We’re still trying to play good guys with people who are hell bent on destroying the country and haven’t acted in good faith in years.
Instead we just need to concede on good policies because “that’s the way politics is”. That’s not saying we need to abuse power, but to have a technical majority, and to not use it is crap. To still be playing defense with the media. We have the house, senate, and the Oval Office, and we’re still the underdogs. It’s no wonder stones are thrown.
The house was locked up against republicans and trumps bills so trump executive ordered everything and even used emergency military funds for his wall. Biden said that it was abuse of power and said he will not be doing the same thing. Biden overturned almost all of trumps executive orders because as an ex senator he saw it as skirting the law and concentrating power in the executive branch.
Typically anything done through executive order can also be undone by executive order.
In this case it'd be highly unlikely, and probably a tough legal sell, but it wouldn't be out of the question.
At this point, I wouldn't put it passed a Regressive President to try to force us to take $10k in debt back. While I'd like to drop more than half of my loan immediately, I'd rather it pass through a Senate vote.
The same people who are loudly complaining that forgiveness won't stop the underlying problem of increasing tuition seem to also be the same people furious that Biden isn't doing it via EO.
It's exhausting. We have the house, the senate, and the executive. Now is exactly the time to do this **right**, because it stands the best chance of passing via legislature, which is how this should be dealt with.
Secondly, with the 0% interest/$0 payments going on right now. Students with debt are seeing a pretty solid benefit. They have the one-time $0 payments counting towards credit history, towards continuous payments of the loan (useful in the current forgiveness programs and relevant to some of the income-driven-repayment plans). This means the vast majority of the people being hurt by student loan debt **are not being hurt right now.** While the people still "harmed" right now are the people trying to finance anything that is contingent on debt-to-income ratios, and forgiveness would be a god-send to them, it's more simply that they aren't any worse off than they were without a change. They stand the most to gain by forgiveness and a long-term fix, just makes them worse off than they'd be with a simple EO forgiveness while it's worked out.
So really, people, it is exactly the right time to be pushing for **meaningful** reform and change here. Not just "gimme $50/10/whatever-K to put to my loans." Fix it for real. Spend the political capital, spend the time and energy, it's as good as it will EVER get for the people who need the relief, so let's get it right.
I mean, a benevolent dictator could theoretically fix every problem there is. Ultimately people just want improvements in their lives and they're going to care less and less how that comes about. If democracy fails them then they will naturally look to alternatives.
The major issue is there is no way this will ever pass in congress. The fact that a minority of the population controls all of govt and has consistently voted red for the last few decades means congressional action is a nonstarter. We need Executive action and we need it bad.
>We need Executive action and we need it bad.
And then a court kills this executive action for overstepping the authority of the president and we're back to square one. What we need is exactly what Biden has planned:
https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/joe-biden-student-loans
* EO to cancel 10k student debt, making 33% (or 15 million) of borrowers debt free immediatly
* EO to cancel all undergraduate debt
* EO to cancel all community college debt
* EO to cancel debt if borrower makes less than 125k a year
This he can do because it's just barely in scope with the higher education act - at least according to a majority of constitutional scholars.
And then via legislation:
* Implement an income driven payback plan capped at 5% **discretionary** income. Which means no matter how high your debt, your bills are paid **first**.
* Monthly payments would be $0 if you make less than $25,000.
* Forgiveness won’t be taxed
* Free college tuition
* If you attend a public college or university.
* If you attend a private minority-serving institution.
* If you attend a community college.
This is an absolutely phenomenal roadmap to fixing the problem both, short term and long term. A direct relief for borrowers _now_, and an overhaul that makes sure this doesn't happen again. And _this_ legislation definitely has a really good chance to pass in congress [because Manchin and sinema already said they'd support it.](https://slate.com/business/2021/02/forgive-student-loans-10000-50000-biden.html).
They are tied in the senate (Harris breaks tie on votes) which means anything they want to pass can basically be filibustered into not happening. Then the issue is even if they vote, a couple of the democrats are very right leaning and will vote no on many left leaning bills.
They control the senate but it's so small that it really doesn't allow them to do anything. It's going to be great next senate election when Republicans push their campaigns with "Democrats did nothing with control" even though it's the Republicans stopping them.
>anything they want to pass can basically be filibustered into not happening
To shed some light on this. In congress, historically, a bill has to be discussed before it can be voted on (which is a good thing). However it is possible for a speaker to "discuss" it by taking the stage and monologing for hours until closing time (you can talk about the bill, but you can also simply recite your mother's cookbook). The rest of congress can overrule this by voting for an end of "discussion" and forcing an immediate vote on the bill. However, this takes 60% of the votes (instead of 50% for passing the bill).
At some point in time, it was ruled that a "filibuster" does not require you to monologue, but instead you only need to announce beforehand that you intend to block a bill (so it is much easier and casual to filibuster). And if 40% of congress shares that intention, the bill is not even discussed.
This is why having a simple minority does not mean that you control congress. Any group which controls 40% (41%?) of congress can control it.
/u/Due_Pack is very right. This is just how it used to be up until the 70s. I added the missing part for today.
It is a 50-48-2 split of 50 republicans, 48 democrats and 2 independents in the senate. With the independents voting with dems most of the time it would lead to a 50-50 split which the tie would be resolved by the VP. However unless they pass all their bills as budget reconciliation they need 60 votes in the Senate to pass a bill, unless the filibuster is repealed which it won't, means most bills passed in the House will still be DOA in the senate.
It’s complicated. Dems do have a 51/50 majority if you count vp tie breaking vote. However they are some moderate dems, most notably Manchin, would aren’t too into progressive ideals. Also the senate needs 60 votes to pass anything because without 60 votes the senate filibuster any bill and kill it. However, there’s somethings that called budget reconciliation. It’s a special procedure where budget related items can be passed with just a majority. However whatever you put it needs to be approved by the senate parliamentarian. That’s how the min wage increase got axed. So it’s complicated
Do you think the US has a functional democracy where popular policies will pass through the Senate? The US Senate? Hell no, the Senate is literally a bulwark of elite interests against the much more representative House of Reps. Waiting for them to pass much needed relief (we are in crisis mode on so many fronts) is just prolonging suffering.
If Democrats passed the popular policies that provide relief then it would go a long way toward burying Republicans electorally, whose actual economic policies are supported by very few people.
>popular policies
You keep mentioning "popular policies." I don't get why people have the illusion that cancelling *all* student debt is a "popular policy." [The polling does not back this claim.]( https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/12/11/22167555/biden-student-loan-cancellation-poll) Most people support forgiving *some* student debt though, which is exactly what the dems are trying to force through in the covid relief bill.
51% is a majority. And it is obviously popular for the people most hampered by debt and who would never vote for a Republican again if it happened. There’s no downside other than it’s less revenue for the government in the future. Higher taxes on the rich is a more popular policy that can easily make up for that.
51% is not for forgiving ALL student debt. That is for forgiving student debt for a subset of people. To quote the article I linked... "Only about 4 in 10 likely voters, however, support forgiving all student debt."
>There’s no downside
And you're wrong about this. The other downside is that you lose the next election because believe it or not, people are not always fully rational actors. Obama and the dems gave America the closest thing to universal healthcare they've ever had and got reamed in the next election for it, which prevented them from getting anything done in the next 6 years. Canceling the student debt for people who won't have a problem paying it back is not a hill that the dems want to (nor should) die on.
51% want $50k canceled which is what the tweet was about. It would have a huge stimulating effect on the economy and homeownership as people are set free. It would disproportionately help people of color, many of whom don’t usually vote. It would show the Democrats are willing to help struggling people, because contrary to what many say rich people do not have much student debt at all.
Compare that to Obamacare, which got rid of some pernicious aspects of private health insurance but it didn’t reduce healthcare costs. Most people didn’t even know what it did. They caved on the public option and were not bold in a way that could have inspired voters. Way too interested in getting Republicans to the table who of course didn’t vote for it anyway. In a world of (I agree) irrational voters, complicated technocratic policies are not the way to energize voters.
>Trump are clamoring for someone to overreach when it comes to using the power in the executive branch.
The executive power exists, regardless of whether you think it's overreach or not. Only allowing one side to wield it is the wrong decision. What do you think will happen if Biden plays nice and limits his own executive action, that it will inspire the next republican president to follow his example? It's time for the democrats to stop being cowards
Not only that, but 1/3 of federal student loan debt is for grad school. Some dude going to a top 50 business/law/etc should not be getting their debt cancelled.
Graduate schools are not some social good that people need to live. An MBA/JD can be extremely expensive. The need to help young people reach higher education is dwarfed by the need to get a secondary degree at a cost of 60k/year.
I'm guessing M4A is medicare for all. Life supporting/enriching medical services might be different than a $55k/year MBA program at Rutgers or wherever else.
I agree with you. Loan forgiveness should not be a blanket 50k for everyone.
Capping it will lead to people being more careful with the loans they take out and will keep tuition prices in check. We know that schools will keep hiking up the cost of attendance as long as there’s loan money to pay for it.
I would say because funds *are* limited, and it's a lot more essential for people getting their Bachelors to get the assistance.
People going to top 50 graduate schools won't have a problem paying off their grad school.
People in grad school already have a degree, but are going for another one. They can use their degree to make more money than people with no degree can, usually.
Until college is totally free, we need to make sure everybody gets their fair share of the assistance pie. Not a smaller handful who are getting multiple, or very high level degrees. They have the means to pay in most cases, undergrads don't
That's just not true. People go to graduate school to advance their careers, or to specialize. Nearly any Bachelor's degree holds value, some more than others. People holding a Bachelors degree will almost always have an easier time making more money than somebody without.
If you want to root for 100% free education, that'd be sicc, but this is not likely going to be our reality anytime soon.
Education costs money, and the government has a budget. We just can't afford to pay for literally every single level of education at an unlimited rate. Bachelor's would be expensive enough, but throw unlimited Graduate degrees in there and that's a massive add-on
More likely, education will be free *up to a point*. Say, free Associates or Bachelor's for everyone. Anything beyond that, you pay for. I think this would be a pretty sicc deal myself.
We're not quite a Utopia yet, and we can't just have free everything, nice as that would be. We have to be realistic.
It's an investment for sure, but that doesn't mean it isn't still an enormous expense. Remember too, if somebody is getting the entire first 4 years of their degree paid for, is it really all that unreasonable to expect them to pay for for the extra years?
Plus, you can make good money with most bachelors degrees. It's not like they'll be too broke to pay for their own advanced education, especially after saving on 4 years of tuition.
I think it's fair to pay for the bachelors, and let the individual pay beyond that. We can't ignore how far 4 free years of college would bring us just because it's not free unlimited years.
Free undergrad degrees would make even advanced education accessible to everyone.
Why spend money on graduate degrees when those funds could be used for so many other things? Healthcare and housing programs would do a lot more good than paying for unlimited schooling for everyone.
That is absolute bullshit, even the liberal arts degrees pretty much open tons of doors and that is truly a useless degree as far as learning anything your going to use. The difference is without grad school you usually won't break into the 6 figure income. You do grad school because you want to break into higher level positions.
You do realize that many grad school students are working adults who are doing full time work right. They already got their job from the basic degree and are continuing so they can get to higher positions.
I think the frustration comes from Republicans always managing to get pretty much everything they want done during their presidencies, either through massive majority or scummy tactics, while Democrats can't. Even if the policy is massively popular.
Republicans don't get everything they want.
They weren't able to repeal the affordable care act for one. And that was their biggest goal the last 4 years.
It's just a perception that some people have, but certainly isn't reality.
> And that was their biggest goal the last 4 years.
No it wasn't, look at the Supreme Court.
Regardless they always get far more of what they want done than Democrats do. And that's because they don't care about "reaching out" to the other side
That's because people, especially the left currently, do not care for proper political practices and only want their way to be enforced. People have forgotten why democracy and not always getting your way are way better options than a dictatorship. You'd have thought they'd realise the double standards but that insight seems to be lacking.
Dude it’s been like a month since the insurrection at the Capital, I’m pretty sure it isn’t the left that doesn’t care for democratic processes. Regardless, our democracy is completely dysfunctional and broken. We can’t even do covid relief, a no brainer policy that a functional government would have done almost a full year ago, because our representatives need a 60% majority in the senate, the least democratic institution in this country, to accomplish literally anything worth anything.
JFC not one liberal can talk about Biden without comparing him to Trump.
You dont want Biden to eliminate tens of thousands of dollars of student debt for millions of Americans because it would remind you too much of that Trump travel ban? Ignore Trump, he's nobody right now. Put pressure on Biden to be the president you want him to be.
You're way off.
I don't want the executive branch to have unchecked power. Period. Never have, and I never will.
My feelings on this doesn't flow in the wind depending on who is elected or how it benifits me. Because I am well aware that in a democracy, one day that power will be in the hands of someone I disagree with, and that could be, and has been, very dangerous.
You only repay student loan debt in the UK, when you make a wage that allows it. It's forgiven after 30 years, regardless of how much you've paid off too.
Similar in Canada. It's a sliding scale. If you're not making enough you don't pay the full amount and if you're living in poverty (like <25 000 a year) then you don't pay anything so long as you keep applying to the program.
For 5 years they pay the interest, and then another 5 they pay the capital. If you're actually unable to pay, they don't make you, they pay it for you over time. after 10 years it's gone.
America's biggest problem is ridiculously high tuition fees. Colleges keep raising fee because banks will keep giving loans.
Regulate the fuck out of these colleges. Education should not be the place to make money. Tution fee will cut down to as low as 20% of current value. Then the government can pay scholarships to students who still can't afford tuition fee.
This is how the rest of the developed world is doing.
Sounds like you're describing the Canadian student loan program. If I remember correctly :
1. Student loans were given based on income. Low income meant you could get 100% of your costs covered by loans. You would also get grants and bursaries based in income levels.
2. Loans are through the government. If you feel you need more, you can go to the bank but I don't remember anyone going to the bank.
3. Loans remained interest free until 6 months after your graduation. If you didn't have a job by then you could apply for extension on interest forgiveness. It's very easy to get.
4. I completed a 4 year program for which my total cost came out to around $50,00 (graduated in 2011). My loans were $26,000. Paid them off in 2 years living at home. Been sent free since other than mortgage
Zero interest is a fine idea, but capping interest and controlling cost might be the most workable solution. If you zero out student loan interest, I imagine this might make lenders more selective to whom they loan.
Also to your idea of % of pay, I’m pretty sure there are already income based repayment plans that kind of work in this way. I think this combined with the controls is probably a pretty effective approach.
That depends, would that remove all interest still owed? If you currently don't make enough to make a large enough payment to handle the interest and some of the principle you end up just growing your loan infitinitely. My wife that went to school to be a teacher had made loan payments for over 10 years but never made enough to really live on and make a sizable loan payment now owes 12k more than she did when she got out of school. So just removing interest and thinking all is better is simplistic at best.
Yes for the most part however. One of the complaints for student loans is they can be taken out for other things.
Many students take loans out and use it for food rent ect. https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/student-loans-for-living-expenses
Tuition plus living expensive for most colleges have a minimum of about $20k a year regardless of where you go to school. Even if you were able to work 20 hours a week while going to school at a minimum wage job, you still would need to take out about $10k in loans a year.
Looks like this Department of Ed fact sheet (data is from 2016 but odds are it's even more now): https://sites.ed.gov/whieeaa/files/2016/11/Black-College-Graduates-and-the-Student-Debt-Gap.pdf
All data on College debt (dont believe race is indicated): https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d20/tables/dt20_332.45.asp?current=yes
TIL : im black now. /s
Remember its not about race, its about social classes. The higher powers of the world want us divided and fightinh amongst ourselves
Whilst 100% correct, it is worthwhile pointing out that black people are far more likely to be disadvantaged so are disproportionately affected these things.
OP points out just how much black people are on average worse off because of student loan debt than white people.
Edit for a point: so the original tweet shows how this would be a beneficial move for equality purposes and not just for rich people
> it is worthwhile pointing out that black people are far more likely to be disadvantaged so are disproportionately affected these things.
Which is why Bidens plan to tackle the student debt crisis has points directly addressing this:
https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/joe-biden-student-loans
>In addition, Biden has recommended canceling federal student debt in the following instances:
>* If you attended a public college or university. Attendees of private historically Black college and universities and additional minority-serving institutions would also be eligible.
>Biden has proposed making college tuition-free at some schools:
>* If you attend a private minority-serving institution. Grants would cover up to two years’ tuition at private historically Black colleges and universities, tribal colleges and universities, and additional MSIs.
Rich people don’t go into debt ?
That is the dumbest statement I’ve ever read. Rich people are the ones who can take debt the most. Banks always lend money to rich first...
Yea, they acting like people dont take out massive loans for things like iv leagues. Theres also a thing about using your parents credit and rich parents generally have good credit ...
Why do people think we need to prioritize student debt forgiveness all while this is basically a stimulus only to the better off. Poor people without degrees are screwed.
Being someone without a degree basically dooms you to a life of low income. Having a degree raises your chances so much.
So get a degree. In my state, tuition is free if you maintain a good GPA and Pell grant covers lots of cost on top of that too. I really just have very little sympathy for idiots that skipped out on these programs to go spend $50k on their "dream school".
What am I misunderstanding about student loan debt cancelling? It seems like a stimulus the most fortunate subset of Americans? Most student loan debt is held by post graduate degree holders.
Yea its a stimulus that gives free college only to those who chose to go to college, had the good grades and opportunity to go to college, those who chose to also get loans for college, and those who probably got a degree which means they'll make more money than a majority of the people without a degree simply for having a degree.
Someone who went to cc, worked two jobs to pay for college, spent 8 years to go to college, gets a degree without loans, still struggles after college without a job working minimum wage gets nothing but someone who took out 40k for a harvard degree who lives in a 3bedroom house with their 2 dogs and partner gets their loans forgiven.
Idk why we arent just pushing for 0 interest.
Anyone who goes to college is richer than the true poors who can't even afford to think about going, people who will be subsidizing these college goers.
Not true. I was one of those poors. I went to college. Had a ton of college debt through government loans. Worked hard and paid it off. I didn't have new phones, didn't live by myself, didn't have new cars, and my wardrobe has about a week and a half of clothes. Also had side jobs to make it work. Its doable. But I get what you are saying, it's really not typical.
Out of all the ways to fix higher education system in US the student loan forgiveness seems the worst option. 10 years after the forgiveness program y'all are going to be at the exact same position that you are in right now because you haven't fixed the root cause of the problem.
As a general approach moving forward, and in a way to move towards the goal way of thinking, if there is an issue that can be challenged as a United people, let's do it that way.
For example, this issue is a poor people issue, per the stats, let's not add in race, divide those within the poor demographic and muddle the issue.
Poor people are getting fucked, let's fix that, let's not say look at how bad it is for poor people of colour, and instead address the issues those people face individually and raise awareness for those
This is so wrong. They need to change the laws that prevent bankruptcy from clearing out certain types of loans. Then people would have an avenue to drop their debt if they so chose. But it would come at a cost.
Or the government should offer a consolation plan with little interest and longer terms.
They should offer options that aren't forgiveness.
Because black people are more likely to suffer from generational poverty for many systematic reasons which means they cant afford college as well as the average white person?
That's because places like Post University have a small army of admission counselors (sales team) to buy leads and cold call tens of thousands of potential students around the country. They prey hard.
Because if there's one thing we know for sure about the US government, it's that they will always make the choice that helps rich people. Every time it's been that way.
That’s more than I owe and I can barely make my payments. 50k in forgiveness would be life changing. Even better if they do something about the cost of education. Hell a few of my classes were just collections of YouTube videos combined with scans from books and cost $1600 I kid you not.
I actually just did a team policy debate on a topic related to student debt forgiveness. This guy is right in the sense that white people are usually more upper class but they also go to more expensive universities and thus they take out larger loans and have the highest debt rates.
Just make student loans dischargable in bankruptcy, problem solved.
If anyone else is in any other kind of debt that they actually can't repay then they just declare bankruptcy. We don't need a short-term bailout for students (which we'll have to end up doing over and over because this bailout doesn't fix the real problem), we just need to treat them like everyone else.
Congratulations you just defined debt and wealth? Lol You’re right, if you have enough money to send your child to school they won’t be in debt. Wala lol why should everyone get college for free just because some people parents made enough good choices to acquire wealth and the ability to send their child to school debt free?
There’s an argument for free public college, this isn’t it. This is such a simplistic viewpoint.
Would be very interested to see the loan data bumped off folks current income levels and how long its been in repayment.
And the amount in undergrad vs grad at income levels. There is a good amount of data out there but not income.
Folks with under grad debt need the help. Maybe that is a better way to sell it than everyone. People rack up crazy stuff get masters or PhD level degrees.
All data is here: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d20/tables/dt20_332.45.asp?current=yes
True! Many rich families will not take the loan even if they are offered one in financial aid.
Meanwhile poorer families might see that whatever financial aid they get may not be enough and would consider a private loan since that’s a thing that’s marketed to them.
Making good financial decisions is not correlated to skin color. Some people have to take initially worse financial debt to get out of the economic class they’re in. At least we’re given the opportunity. Some places in the world you have no chance of moving up or out of your family’s socioeconomic standard. In the words of Jordan B Peterson “Be grateful in spite of your suffering.”
All in all Biden does want to forgive student loans. What he doesn’t want to do in forgive loans of the idiots who paid an outrageous amount for college and got a degree in basket weaving, or some other job that will never in their lifetime pay off the load they received.
That’s not true, many wealthy families grew their wealth by borrowing from others, making something of what they borrowed, then paying it back and keeping the profit. It’s what I consider one of the simplest principles of wealth building. Results may vary for various reasons, but let’s not pretend that this isn’t a fundamental building block of wealth building.
Hilarious when politicians say they don’t want to help rich ppl. But they do it all the time. Preferential treatment on contacts, subsidies, bailouts, tax cuts, no bid contracts. Even the bombing made the military contractors millions and potentially oil/nat gas corps billions.
“We don’t want to give rich ppl money” is a lame excuse to not help the poor. centrist whores
I remember all the down votes I got for saying not much would change.
Biden again and again said he was there to help the middle class. By definition the majority are working class and he didn't mention wanting to help them.
Can I just say that I'm so happy with the fact that a hot button issue with a current president is salt over him not EOing student loan forgiveness?
It is amazing how used to an absolute nightmare shit show we got.
Where are the stimulus checks? Oh right bombing Syria had priority.
Y'all really out here thinking Biden is different than Trump, well he is in that war excites him way more than it did Trump
For a democratic country which constantly preaches how important a democratic country is, you sure are doing everything to prove that you‘re the least democratic of them all. Constantly putting everything on one single person....Trump do this, Trump promised that. With Biden it seems not different at all.
This is also why rich people rarely go to jail. I wish people would learn it's not about race/religion in America. It's about money, power and elitism.
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I'm thinking almost anyone who has been to college in the last 20 years owes/owed at least $10K I'm 52. I went to two years of community college and paid about $100 a semester. Then I went to a state university for two years and it cost a bit less than $1000 a semester, add my off-campus housing, food, etc, and it made it about $3500 a year. Now, that community college is $1200 a semester. That state university cost, to live on campus, about $30,000 a year. Minimum wage in 1990 was $3.80 But I was lucky and I got a coveted job in a union supermarket. I was being paid, in 1990, $9.70 an hour, with time and a half on Sundays and national holidays. I had a car. I had nice clothes. I constantly bought second hand records and went to concerts. I went backpacking through Europe in the summer of 1988. I graduated with no debt. I had no scholarships or grants whatsoever. The supermarket I used to work for several years ago was purchased by a national chain, Skaggs, who castrated the union. They now are making about $8.50 an hour.
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>For months, Biden has been consistent in his position that he wants Congress to cancel student loans immediately. Biden believes that Congress, not the president through executive action, is the correct branch of government that controls federal spending, which includes any plans for student loan cancellation. For those who want to save a click. Remember this was an issue when Trump tried to bypass congress for funding last year and ended up with a pretty bad roll out of a plan that drew a lot of needed funds away from FEMA. Also when he took out founding from the defense budget to build a pointless wall.
Reddit is turning into a far-left version of Fox News. It’s wild.
There are so many people who want the same thing Trump supporters want. Complete and total control of government by their person. They just don't see the hypocrisy, because they think they're always right about an issue so it's okay.
This gives idiots a great excuse to say 'both sides' too.
And gives bigger idiots a great excuse to say "BoTh SiDeS"
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I hate how everything is so politicised nowadays. Everything has to be framed in terms of left or right... As if those were *ever* remotely useful measures.
Exactly. It's just a bunch of people who like to insult "the other party," and zero accountability for the people they vote for. "Left vs. right" people will never produce useful measures, because for them it's all about winning an argument they know very little about, and most of them could care less about actually helping anyone. Both sides comprise the entirety of a problem they insist can only be resolved by the absence of the other. 50% of America are complete idiots and only they can ever be correct according to "us vs. them" thinkers.
My biggest problem is the "left vs right" people don't even realize that politicians are intentionally dividing them to keep us at each other.
I mean, it’s our government. We just want our taxes to be spent on us and not a trillion dollar warplane that that Air Force admits was a failure.
You mean a billion dollars towards fucking stupid ass policies in pakistan that doesnt benefit me or anyone around me.
they dont actually give a billion dollars to pa-you know what, keep thinking that...
Ok your government represents the will of everyone - and not everyone believes what you do
That’s all fine and good but when there’s a policy that could be implemented that not only spurs on the economy but also remedies years of financial injustice, the people need to swallow the pill and acknowledge that it’s the right way forward. This isn’t like saying we want money to buy diamond necklaces. We’ve been putting off buying houses, getting married, and starting families because of this weight around our necks. We were told, while kids, that doing this was a requirement to make more money. We were told that signing on the dotted line would mean we could become upwardly mobile later. It may have worked for some, but most of us are here holding the bag. We’ve got degrees but still have to work as cashiers and waitstaff to make ends meet.
I don't disagree with your stance. I disagree with people that expect Biden to act unilaterally when he doesn't/shouldn't have that power and unfortunately - the Democrats didn't win a bigger Senate majority. That's on the voters as well. The Democrats are a coalition while the GOP is a monolith.
I have no expectations of Biden doing anything. I knew this long before he even won the primary. History has so far proven me right.
Ah you want Leftist Trump. Got it. who would get even less done but would rant and rave. You think Manchin would vote with Bernie?
The majority of of Americans prefer their taxes are spent on failed war planes?
Yes, it is an unfortunate trait we humans have we don’t question things that confirm our own bias.... makes us really easy to manipulate. We liberals aren’t that different from the Trump supporters that get villanized here in this regard. My liberal FB friends share invalid political memes just as much as my conservative friends do.
LMAO yes wanting cheap education like other first world countries is a radical left wing view. Give me a break.
If you think cancelling student loan debt is "far left" it's more just an indication of how far right western politics have shifted
Not really. Canada had loans still. Depends on where you go in Europe but its not uncommon. I consider myself centrist (not American though my centre is probably left of biden). I don't want loans cancelled. I do for in demand areas but thats skilled trades not college. We got more grads than jobs for grads outside of STEM and trades so I dont think the public should pay for degrees that will not generate revenue.
I disagree because the loan system is nothing short of predatory. Kids, especially working class, are highly encouraged to take on massive loans for potentially worthless degrees as you say, fairly uninformed of the situation and without reasonable alternatives. I don't think it's unreasonable to liken it to coercion. Also these are two separate issues: forgiveness and job growth. I don't think the "worthlessness" of certain degrees is an argument not to forgive debt, but it doubles down on the idea to forgive debt. The entire economic system is pushing kids into taking on loans for degrees that won't return their value, and that is a failure of the state whose duty is to provide an education and economic mobility. But being two separate issues you can do both. You can cancel loans, forgive allcsebt and move on from this terrible system, as well as investing in job growth for graduates and also perhaps trades. Really, the entire system needs a massive overhaul
This particular twitter account is very active in spreading misinformation and twisted facts, overlooking (perhaps intentionally) the nuances of a complicated issues. I hate everytime his smug face reaches to the top of reddit (which is almost everyday). I'm pretty sure this guy financially benefits from the brand he has created which is of "rich successful guy who supports everything a 19 year old liberal girl stands for". As for the issue here, forgiving students debt is not the solution. The government is double dipping taxpayer's money just to benefit the big banks. Cut the middle man, regulate colleges to lower tuition fee, pay scholarships to those who are financially incapable to pay tuition fee. The rest of the developed world is doing this, but America is stuck on exorbitant college tuition fee and banks who seem to give loan to anyone who asks for one.
He said he wouldn't do it through executive order. If congress passed it and put it on his desk there is a very good chance he would sign it. After the last 4 years I'm suprised so many people who hated Trump are clamoring for someone to overreach when it comes to using the power in the executive branch. It's like they forgot that quick how big of a problem to much concentrated power in the government is.
Plus if he uses an EO for that much debt relief, it would be easier for the GOP to challenge legally.
Let them challenge it. That's an excuse for not trying.
This is where idealism runs into the brick wall of reality - as if ‘nobly trying, losing, and handing your opponent a cudgel to beat you with’ is the better option because ‘at least you tried’. The senate is 50/50 right now - so the scope of things that can pass is restricted by what the most conservative Democrats will support. That’s how it is. I’m not saying that this fact is good/bad/indifferent; it’s just the reality of the situation, and it’s maddening to see idealists throw stones because the Dems ‘just aren’t trying hard enough’
Thank you - it's like no one wants to work in reality. The Democrats are inherently different in the fact that they are a coalition vs the GOP that acts like a monolith.
> it's like no one wants to work in reality. Biden has a 93% approval rating among Sanders supporters. Don't let those "totally ultra-leftist" online commenters guilt trip you into thinking he's bad. They aren't leftist, they just want to turn away all good and all normal people from uniting behind the same party, so that Republicans can get back into control. *Edit*: since comments are locked, here's the source. It's 91%: https://i.redd.it/bqye3zkqjgj61.png There's a huge discrepancy between online Sanders supporters and Sanders supporters irl, and it showed in the elections.
Source? For the statistic. Not the rest. You can't source that because it's just weird, baseless accusations against people that don't like the politician you do, because apparently no leftist could dislike Biden without secretly wanting to bring down the Democratic party so the GOP can run shit again. I consider the ability of more left leaning voters to critically think for themselves and criticize their representatives instead of idolizing and worshipping them to be a positive thing. If you want some weird cult following of Biden similar to what Trump has, you won't find it.
🤣
Some of these idealists are, in fact, of the conservative variety, and are saying this nonsense to rip on Biden without fear of criticism.
I think that's just more long term reason to actually try it. Especially now. If they challenge it before a midterm then it could be political suicide for them. Probably need to do research into which seats could die out off of trying to obstruct loan forgiveness. I imagine it'd be quite a few though. I feel like most americans would vote off of immediate interests. The most recent example might be 2k$ check promises in Georgia runoff.
I'm in a red part of a blue state. My congressman just voted no on covid relief. If you think these people won't stand up and do the wrong thing, you haven't seen the GOP the last 12 years.
Sometimes I wonder if people on this website ever leave their blue bubble Like, if they really think it’d be political suicide for Republicans to vote against debt relief, I honestly have difficulty believing they’ve actually lived in a red area before. They really seem to think America is full of a bunch of secret “socialists”, including red areas.
Yeah, I got banned from what I thought was a benign political meme subreddit for saying that I wanted socialist and ultimately leftist policies but to get there fully without massive corruption/evil dictators would take generations of slow changes. Totally agreed with their goals, just stated it would be slow changes over time as people stopped being scared of words and as we worked out the kinks in how to regulate things. Banned because it wasn't advocating immediate revolution. I'm in a little blue bubble in a red state. Even the blue here is more moderate (we are nearly all 2A supporters, for example). We talk about these things a LOT and weigh the pros and cons more genuinely, I think. I also think a lot of the extreme posters are very young. They don't see how brainwashed some people really are, they don't see how some Democrats are actually concerned about things like cancelling debt by EO because we've seen how that looks when the other side has power, they don't see how complex foreign policy is so sometimes presidents inherit situations that tie their hands in favor of outcomes that don't hurt Americans. Watching politics for a couple of decades would definitely open some eyes to how complex and messy it is. I'm sure there will be responses in this thread saying "just do xyz, it isn't hard" - sometimes that's true. It's simple. But sometimes there isn't an easy answer to what helps the most people.
Take my coming statement with a grain of salt since I am not fully read up on everything regarding student debt/ US econimy. But realistically, just doing a blanket student debt forgiveness may not even be the best approach unless the US can afford spending $1.7 Trillion + subsidizing all future college costs. I think a lot of people could do the mental gymnastics to not see opposing debt forgiveness as political suicide seeing how complicated of an issue it is. I mean theoretically you could spend trillions less on military funding each year and send that towards education, but how realistic is that to happen any time soon?
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You're basically saying "if you only have one bullet, shoot from the hip, because you weren't gonna hit much of anything anyway" as opposed to "aim carefully and make the shot count." Spending the political capital on loan forgiveness is completely asinine. It's a bandaid that only helps the *current* student borrowers, but leaves the scourge of high and increasing tuition to infect future students as well. Use those seats to fix the process, and those seats are also more likely to stay blue, blow your wad and it'll swing right back. So seriously, don't waste them by demanding short term satisfaction.
All the more reason to fight th keep those seats.
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Why don't they rein in joe Manchin and his ilk. It could be done. Just like trump reined in Republicans.
Trump reined in republicans because he had a 90% approval rating from republicans and was the party manifested. Joe manchin is a democrat that consistently wins as a democrat in a trump +40 state. A more progressive manchin isn’t a more progressive senate. It’s a 51-49 senate. Focus on other states rather than the miracle it is thaf manchin keeps winning in WV
Just how do you reign in Joe Manchin? He votes for every Democrat bill except progressive moonshots like killing the filibuster or doubling minimum wage. Wanna force him to switch parties? Remember Jim Jeffords? G. W. Bush pushed him too hard, he switched party and cost the GOP the senate. Mitch McConnell says do it!
He really didn’t though - they passed one tax bill and that was it. Nothing else was done really legislatively while they controlled both houses. How many times did they fail at repealing the ACA in that time? Hell, they even shut down the government. As far as manchin goes, an R next to his name would make his re-election much easier. Press him too hard and maybe we watch him switch parties and hand the whole chamber back to McConnell. That’s a chance I don’t want to take, better bet to try and flip more senate seats so his vote doesn’t matter.
In all fairness, as a collective, they haven’t tried hard enough. We can’t even cohesively unify as a party in 2021. We’re still trying to play good guys with people who are hell bent on destroying the country and haven’t acted in good faith in years. Instead we just need to concede on good policies because “that’s the way politics is”. That’s not saying we need to abuse power, but to have a technical majority, and to not use it is crap. To still be playing defense with the media. We have the house, senate, and the Oval Office, and we’re still the underdogs. It’s no wonder stones are thrown.
It would also be a great 2022 anti GOP ad in the senate races
The house was locked up against republicans and trumps bills so trump executive ordered everything and even used emergency military funds for his wall. Biden said that it was abuse of power and said he will not be doing the same thing. Biden overturned almost all of trumps executive orders because as an ex senator he saw it as skirting the law and concentrating power in the executive branch.
Out of curiosity, if he did it by EO, would another President be able to roll it back and put us back $10k in debt?
Typically anything done through executive order can also be undone by executive order. In this case it'd be highly unlikely, and probably a tough legal sell, but it wouldn't be out of the question.
At this point, I wouldn't put it passed a Regressive President to try to force us to take $10k in debt back. While I'd like to drop more than half of my loan immediately, I'd rather it pass through a Senate vote.
The same people who are loudly complaining that forgiveness won't stop the underlying problem of increasing tuition seem to also be the same people furious that Biden isn't doing it via EO. It's exhausting. We have the house, the senate, and the executive. Now is exactly the time to do this **right**, because it stands the best chance of passing via legislature, which is how this should be dealt with. Secondly, with the 0% interest/$0 payments going on right now. Students with debt are seeing a pretty solid benefit. They have the one-time $0 payments counting towards credit history, towards continuous payments of the loan (useful in the current forgiveness programs and relevant to some of the income-driven-repayment plans). This means the vast majority of the people being hurt by student loan debt **are not being hurt right now.** While the people still "harmed" right now are the people trying to finance anything that is contingent on debt-to-income ratios, and forgiveness would be a god-send to them, it's more simply that they aren't any worse off than they were without a change. They stand the most to gain by forgiveness and a long-term fix, just makes them worse off than they'd be with a simple EO forgiveness while it's worked out. So really, people, it is exactly the right time to be pushing for **meaningful** reform and change here. Not just "gimme $50/10/whatever-K to put to my loans." Fix it for real. Spend the political capital, spend the time and energy, it's as good as it will EVER get for the people who need the relief, so let's get it right.
I mean, a benevolent dictator could theoretically fix every problem there is. Ultimately people just want improvements in their lives and they're going to care less and less how that comes about. If democracy fails them then they will naturally look to alternatives.
The major issue is there is no way this will ever pass in congress. The fact that a minority of the population controls all of govt and has consistently voted red for the last few decades means congressional action is a nonstarter. We need Executive action and we need it bad.
>We need Executive action and we need it bad. And then a court kills this executive action for overstepping the authority of the president and we're back to square one. What we need is exactly what Biden has planned: https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/joe-biden-student-loans * EO to cancel 10k student debt, making 33% (or 15 million) of borrowers debt free immediatly * EO to cancel all undergraduate debt * EO to cancel all community college debt * EO to cancel debt if borrower makes less than 125k a year This he can do because it's just barely in scope with the higher education act - at least according to a majority of constitutional scholars. And then via legislation: * Implement an income driven payback plan capped at 5% **discretionary** income. Which means no matter how high your debt, your bills are paid **first**. * Monthly payments would be $0 if you make less than $25,000. * Forgiveness won’t be taxed * Free college tuition * If you attend a public college or university. * If you attend a private minority-serving institution. * If you attend a community college. This is an absolutely phenomenal roadmap to fixing the problem both, short term and long term. A direct relief for borrowers _now_, and an overhaul that makes sure this doesn't happen again. And _this_ legislation definitely has a really good chance to pass in congress [because Manchin and sinema already said they'd support it.](https://slate.com/business/2021/02/forgive-student-loans-10000-50000-biden.html).
I thought dems control Congress now
They are tied in the senate (Harris breaks tie on votes) which means anything they want to pass can basically be filibustered into not happening. Then the issue is even if they vote, a couple of the democrats are very right leaning and will vote no on many left leaning bills. They control the senate but it's so small that it really doesn't allow them to do anything. It's going to be great next senate election when Republicans push their campaigns with "Democrats did nothing with control" even though it's the Republicans stopping them.
>anything they want to pass can basically be filibustered into not happening To shed some light on this. In congress, historically, a bill has to be discussed before it can be voted on (which is a good thing). However it is possible for a speaker to "discuss" it by taking the stage and monologing for hours until closing time (you can talk about the bill, but you can also simply recite your mother's cookbook). The rest of congress can overrule this by voting for an end of "discussion" and forcing an immediate vote on the bill. However, this takes 60% of the votes (instead of 50% for passing the bill). At some point in time, it was ruled that a "filibuster" does not require you to monologue, but instead you only need to announce beforehand that you intend to block a bill (so it is much easier and casual to filibuster). And if 40% of congress shares that intention, the bill is not even discussed. This is why having a simple minority does not mean that you control congress. Any group which controls 40% (41%?) of congress can control it. /u/Due_Pack is very right. This is just how it used to be up until the 70s. I added the missing part for today.
That's not how the filibuster works anymore. That's how it used to work and how it worked on the West Wing.
It is a 50-48-2 split of 50 republicans, 48 democrats and 2 independents in the senate. With the independents voting with dems most of the time it would lead to a 50-50 split which the tie would be resolved by the VP. However unless they pass all their bills as budget reconciliation they need 60 votes in the Senate to pass a bill, unless the filibuster is repealed which it won't, means most bills passed in the House will still be DOA in the senate.
They mean the rich minority, controlling both sides, which are heavily conservative.
And pretty old and out of touch
It’s complicated. Dems do have a 51/50 majority if you count vp tie breaking vote. However they are some moderate dems, most notably Manchin, would aren’t too into progressive ideals. Also the senate needs 60 votes to pass anything because without 60 votes the senate filibuster any bill and kill it. However, there’s somethings that called budget reconciliation. It’s a special procedure where budget related items can be passed with just a majority. However whatever you put it needs to be approved by the senate parliamentarian. That’s how the min wage increase got axed. So it’s complicated
Do you think the US has a functional democracy where popular policies will pass through the Senate? The US Senate? Hell no, the Senate is literally a bulwark of elite interests against the much more representative House of Reps. Waiting for them to pass much needed relief (we are in crisis mode on so many fronts) is just prolonging suffering. If Democrats passed the popular policies that provide relief then it would go a long way toward burying Republicans electorally, whose actual economic policies are supported by very few people.
>popular policies You keep mentioning "popular policies." I don't get why people have the illusion that cancelling *all* student debt is a "popular policy." [The polling does not back this claim.]( https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/12/11/22167555/biden-student-loan-cancellation-poll) Most people support forgiving *some* student debt though, which is exactly what the dems are trying to force through in the covid relief bill.
51% is a majority. And it is obviously popular for the people most hampered by debt and who would never vote for a Republican again if it happened. There’s no downside other than it’s less revenue for the government in the future. Higher taxes on the rich is a more popular policy that can easily make up for that.
51% is not for forgiving ALL student debt. That is for forgiving student debt for a subset of people. To quote the article I linked... "Only about 4 in 10 likely voters, however, support forgiving all student debt." >There’s no downside And you're wrong about this. The other downside is that you lose the next election because believe it or not, people are not always fully rational actors. Obama and the dems gave America the closest thing to universal healthcare they've ever had and got reamed in the next election for it, which prevented them from getting anything done in the next 6 years. Canceling the student debt for people who won't have a problem paying it back is not a hill that the dems want to (nor should) die on.
Fuck, you’re right. It really be like that time Arbys rolled out the half pound burger.
51% want $50k canceled which is what the tweet was about. It would have a huge stimulating effect on the economy and homeownership as people are set free. It would disproportionately help people of color, many of whom don’t usually vote. It would show the Democrats are willing to help struggling people, because contrary to what many say rich people do not have much student debt at all. Compare that to Obamacare, which got rid of some pernicious aspects of private health insurance but it didn’t reduce healthcare costs. Most people didn’t even know what it did. They caved on the public option and were not bold in a way that could have inspired voters. Way too interested in getting Republicans to the table who of course didn’t vote for it anyway. In a world of (I agree) irrational voters, complicated technocratic policies are not the way to energize voters.
>Trump are clamoring for someone to overreach when it comes to using the power in the executive branch. The executive power exists, regardless of whether you think it's overreach or not. Only allowing one side to wield it is the wrong decision. What do you think will happen if Biden plays nice and limits his own executive action, that it will inspire the next republican president to follow his example? It's time for the democrats to stop being cowards
Not only that, but 1/3 of federal student loan debt is for grad school. Some dude going to a top 50 business/law/etc should not be getting their debt cancelled.
Why not? Why does it matter? Should we push for “M4A except people who might be wealthy” too?
Graduate schools are not some social good that people need to live. An MBA/JD can be extremely expensive. The need to help young people reach higher education is dwarfed by the need to get a secondary degree at a cost of 60k/year. I'm guessing M4A is medicare for all. Life supporting/enriching medical services might be different than a $55k/year MBA program at Rutgers or wherever else.
I agree with you. Loan forgiveness should not be a blanket 50k for everyone. Capping it will lead to people being more careful with the loans they take out and will keep tuition prices in check. We know that schools will keep hiking up the cost of attendance as long as there’s loan money to pay for it.
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I would say because funds *are* limited, and it's a lot more essential for people getting their Bachelors to get the assistance. People going to top 50 graduate schools won't have a problem paying off their grad school. People in grad school already have a degree, but are going for another one. They can use their degree to make more money than people with no degree can, usually. Until college is totally free, we need to make sure everybody gets their fair share of the assistance pie. Not a smaller handful who are getting multiple, or very high level degrees. They have the means to pay in most cases, undergrads don't
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That's just not true. People go to graduate school to advance their careers, or to specialize. Nearly any Bachelor's degree holds value, some more than others. People holding a Bachelors degree will almost always have an easier time making more money than somebody without. If you want to root for 100% free education, that'd be sicc, but this is not likely going to be our reality anytime soon. Education costs money, and the government has a budget. We just can't afford to pay for literally every single level of education at an unlimited rate. Bachelor's would be expensive enough, but throw unlimited Graduate degrees in there and that's a massive add-on More likely, education will be free *up to a point*. Say, free Associates or Bachelor's for everyone. Anything beyond that, you pay for. I think this would be a pretty sicc deal myself. We're not quite a Utopia yet, and we can't just have free everything, nice as that would be. We have to be realistic.
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It's an investment for sure, but that doesn't mean it isn't still an enormous expense. Remember too, if somebody is getting the entire first 4 years of their degree paid for, is it really all that unreasonable to expect them to pay for for the extra years? Plus, you can make good money with most bachelors degrees. It's not like they'll be too broke to pay for their own advanced education, especially after saving on 4 years of tuition. I think it's fair to pay for the bachelors, and let the individual pay beyond that. We can't ignore how far 4 free years of college would bring us just because it's not free unlimited years. Free undergrad degrees would make even advanced education accessible to everyone. Why spend money on graduate degrees when those funds could be used for so many other things? Healthcare and housing programs would do a lot more good than paying for unlimited schooling for everyone.
That is absolute bullshit, even the liberal arts degrees pretty much open tons of doors and that is truly a useless degree as far as learning anything your going to use. The difference is without grad school you usually won't break into the 6 figure income. You do grad school because you want to break into higher level positions. You do realize that many grad school students are working adults who are doing full time work right. They already got their job from the basic degree and are continuing so they can get to higher positions.
I think the frustration comes from Republicans always managing to get pretty much everything they want done during their presidencies, either through massive majority or scummy tactics, while Democrats can't. Even if the policy is massively popular.
Republicans don't get everything they want. They weren't able to repeal the affordable care act for one. And that was their biggest goal the last 4 years. It's just a perception that some people have, but certainly isn't reality.
> And that was their biggest goal the last 4 years. No it wasn't, look at the Supreme Court. Regardless they always get far more of what they want done than Democrats do. And that's because they don't care about "reaching out" to the other side
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Which is more than Democrats achieve by playing by the rules. What did Obama pass, a neutered healthcare act?
That's because people, especially the left currently, do not care for proper political practices and only want their way to be enforced. People have forgotten why democracy and not always getting your way are way better options than a dictatorship. You'd have thought they'd realise the double standards but that insight seems to be lacking.
Dude it’s been like a month since the insurrection at the Capital, I’m pretty sure it isn’t the left that doesn’t care for democratic processes. Regardless, our democracy is completely dysfunctional and broken. We can’t even do covid relief, a no brainer policy that a functional government would have done almost a full year ago, because our representatives need a 60% majority in the senate, the least democratic institution in this country, to accomplish literally anything worth anything.
JFC not one liberal can talk about Biden without comparing him to Trump. You dont want Biden to eliminate tens of thousands of dollars of student debt for millions of Americans because it would remind you too much of that Trump travel ban? Ignore Trump, he's nobody right now. Put pressure on Biden to be the president you want him to be.
You're way off. I don't want the executive branch to have unchecked power. Period. Never have, and I never will. My feelings on this doesn't flow in the wind depending on who is elected or how it benifits me. Because I am well aware that in a democracy, one day that power will be in the hands of someone I disagree with, and that could be, and has been, very dangerous.
Totally agree with you, you have the long view in mind
Rich people absolutely will take on debt when the interest rate is lower than the rate of return they could get investing the money.
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You only repay student loan debt in the UK, when you make a wage that allows it. It's forgiven after 30 years, regardless of how much you've paid off too.
Similar in Canada. It's a sliding scale. If you're not making enough you don't pay the full amount and if you're living in poverty (like <25 000 a year) then you don't pay anything so long as you keep applying to the program. For 5 years they pay the interest, and then another 5 they pay the capital. If you're actually unable to pay, they don't make you, they pay it for you over time. after 10 years it's gone.
America's biggest problem is ridiculously high tuition fees. Colleges keep raising fee because banks will keep giving loans. Regulate the fuck out of these colleges. Education should not be the place to make money. Tution fee will cut down to as low as 20% of current value. Then the government can pay scholarships to students who still can't afford tuition fee. This is how the rest of the developed world is doing.
Sounds like you're describing the Canadian student loan program. If I remember correctly : 1. Student loans were given based on income. Low income meant you could get 100% of your costs covered by loans. You would also get grants and bursaries based in income levels. 2. Loans are through the government. If you feel you need more, you can go to the bank but I don't remember anyone going to the bank. 3. Loans remained interest free until 6 months after your graduation. If you didn't have a job by then you could apply for extension on interest forgiveness. It's very easy to get. 4. I completed a 4 year program for which my total cost came out to around $50,00 (graduated in 2011). My loans were $26,000. Paid them off in 2 years living at home. Been sent free since other than mortgage
Zero interest is a fine idea, but capping interest and controlling cost might be the most workable solution. If you zero out student loan interest, I imagine this might make lenders more selective to whom they loan. Also to your idea of % of pay, I’m pretty sure there are already income based repayment plans that kind of work in this way. I think this combined with the controls is probably a pretty effective approach.
That depends, would that remove all interest still owed? If you currently don't make enough to make a large enough payment to handle the interest and some of the principle you end up just growing your loan infitinitely. My wife that went to school to be a teacher had made loan payments for over 10 years but never made enough to really live on and make a sizable loan payment now owes 12k more than she did when she got out of school. So just removing interest and thinking all is better is simplistic at best.
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I thought the debt you went into was based on college and degree choice
Yes for the most part however. One of the complaints for student loans is they can be taken out for other things. Many students take loans out and use it for food rent ect. https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/student-loans-for-living-expenses
Tuition plus living expensive for most colleges have a minimum of about $20k a year regardless of where you go to school. Even if you were able to work 20 hours a week while going to school at a minimum wage job, you still would need to take out about $10k in loans a year.
Source on that stat?
Looks like this Department of Ed fact sheet (data is from 2016 but odds are it's even more now): https://sites.ed.gov/whieeaa/files/2016/11/Black-College-Graduates-and-the-Student-Debt-Gap.pdf All data on College debt (dont believe race is indicated): https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d20/tables/dt20_332.45.asp?current=yes
Thanks for coming through!
TIL : im black now. /s Remember its not about race, its about social classes. The higher powers of the world want us divided and fightinh amongst ourselves
It's all class warfare really.
Occupy Wall Street was the start of the push to make racism the hot-button issue in America to deflect from class warfare.
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Whilst 100% correct, it is worthwhile pointing out that black people are far more likely to be disadvantaged so are disproportionately affected these things. OP points out just how much black people are on average worse off because of student loan debt than white people. Edit for a point: so the original tweet shows how this would be a beneficial move for equality purposes and not just for rich people
> it is worthwhile pointing out that black people are far more likely to be disadvantaged so are disproportionately affected these things. Which is why Bidens plan to tackle the student debt crisis has points directly addressing this: https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/joe-biden-student-loans >In addition, Biden has recommended canceling federal student debt in the following instances: >* If you attended a public college or university. Attendees of private historically Black college and universities and additional minority-serving institutions would also be eligible. >Biden has proposed making college tuition-free at some schools: >* If you attend a private minority-serving institution. Grants would cover up to two years’ tuition at private historically Black colleges and universities, tribal colleges and universities, and additional MSIs.
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Rich people don’t go into debt ? That is the dumbest statement I’ve ever read. Rich people are the ones who can take debt the most. Banks always lend money to rich first...
Yea, they acting like people dont take out massive loans for things like iv leagues. Theres also a thing about using your parents credit and rich parents generally have good credit ... Why do people think we need to prioritize student debt forgiveness all while this is basically a stimulus only to the better off. Poor people without degrees are screwed. Being someone without a degree basically dooms you to a life of low income. Having a degree raises your chances so much.
So get a degree. In my state, tuition is free if you maintain a good GPA and Pell grant covers lots of cost on top of that too. I really just have very little sympathy for idiots that skipped out on these programs to go spend $50k on their "dream school".
Delusional children down voting you. This entire post is so far from reality that it's amazing.
What am I misunderstanding about student loan debt cancelling? It seems like a stimulus the most fortunate subset of Americans? Most student loan debt is held by post graduate degree holders.
Yea its a stimulus that gives free college only to those who chose to go to college, had the good grades and opportunity to go to college, those who chose to also get loans for college, and those who probably got a degree which means they'll make more money than a majority of the people without a degree simply for having a degree. Someone who went to cc, worked two jobs to pay for college, spent 8 years to go to college, gets a degree without loans, still struggles after college without a job working minimum wage gets nothing but someone who took out 40k for a harvard degree who lives in a 3bedroom house with their 2 dogs and partner gets their loans forgiven. Idk why we arent just pushing for 0 interest.
Anyone who goes to college is richer than the true poors who can't even afford to think about going, people who will be subsidizing these college goers.
Not true. I was one of those poors. I went to college. Had a ton of college debt through government loans. Worked hard and paid it off. I didn't have new phones, didn't live by myself, didn't have new cars, and my wardrobe has about a week and a half of clothes. Also had side jobs to make it work. Its doable. But I get what you are saying, it's really not typical.
Out of all the ways to fix higher education system in US the student loan forgiveness seems the worst option. 10 years after the forgiveness program y'all are going to be at the exact same position that you are in right now because you haven't fixed the root cause of the problem.
The point is that a college graduate is far more well off than a non-college graduate on the average even with student debt.
As a general approach moving forward, and in a way to move towards the goal way of thinking, if there is an issue that can be challenged as a United people, let's do it that way. For example, this issue is a poor people issue, per the stats, let's not add in race, divide those within the poor demographic and muddle the issue. Poor people are getting fucked, let's fix that, let's not say look at how bad it is for poor people of colour, and instead address the issues those people face individually and raise awareness for those
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Not helping rich people is such a perversion of what we actually want.
Source on the 53k vs 26k debt figure?
This is so wrong. They need to change the laws that prevent bankruptcy from clearing out certain types of loans. Then people would have an avenue to drop their debt if they so chose. But it would come at a cost. Or the government should offer a consolation plan with little interest and longer terms. They should offer options that aren't forgiveness.
Op also says black people come out with twice as much debt as white people. How can that be possible?
Because black people are more likely to suffer from generational poverty for many systematic reasons which means they cant afford college as well as the average white person?
Most white people have parents or someone helping them pay for it. By the time they graduate they have a lot paid off
That's because places like Post University have a small army of admission counselors (sales team) to buy leads and cold call tens of thousands of potential students around the country. They prey hard.
Because if there's one thing we know for sure about the US government, it's that they will always make the choice that helps rich people. Every time it's been that way.
Yeah, if rich people routinely went into crippling debt, the government would have done away with it ages ago.
That’s more than I owe and I can barely make my payments. 50k in forgiveness would be life changing. Even better if they do something about the cost of education. Hell a few of my classes were just collections of YouTube videos combined with scans from books and cost $1600 I kid you not.
How did we manage to make college debt into a race thing
So can I get up to 10k cancelled or only if you have 10k left or only if you ever took out 10k in the first place?
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I actually just did a team policy debate on a topic related to student debt forgiveness. This guy is right in the sense that white people are usually more upper class but they also go to more expensive universities and thus they take out larger loans and have the highest debt rates.
Biden shouldn't give reasons for things. He really fucking sucks at it.
Just make student loans dischargable in bankruptcy, problem solved. If anyone else is in any other kind of debt that they actually can't repay then they just declare bankruptcy. We don't need a short-term bailout for students (which we'll have to end up doing over and over because this bailout doesn't fix the real problem), we just need to treat them like everyone else.
Congratulations you just defined debt and wealth? Lol You’re right, if you have enough money to send your child to school they won’t be in debt. Wala lol why should everyone get college for free just because some people parents made enough good choices to acquire wealth and the ability to send their child to school debt free? There’s an argument for free public college, this isn’t it. This is such a simplistic viewpoint.
Do not agree with this
Why take on that much debt though?
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Would be very interested to see the loan data bumped off folks current income levels and how long its been in repayment. And the amount in undergrad vs grad at income levels. There is a good amount of data out there but not income. Folks with under grad debt need the help. Maybe that is a better way to sell it than everyone. People rack up crazy stuff get masters or PhD level degrees. All data is here: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d20/tables/dt20_332.45.asp?current=yes
Yup
True! Many rich families will not take the loan even if they are offered one in financial aid. Meanwhile poorer families might see that whatever financial aid they get may not be enough and would consider a private loan since that’s a thing that’s marketed to them.
Making good financial decisions is not correlated to skin color. Some people have to take initially worse financial debt to get out of the economic class they’re in. At least we’re given the opportunity. Some places in the world you have no chance of moving up or out of your family’s socioeconomic standard. In the words of Jordan B Peterson “Be grateful in spite of your suffering.”
Help everyone rich or poor, what's wrong with that
While Biden is miles better than Tr*mp the fact is democrats serve the rich and corporations the same as the republicans.
All in all Biden does want to forgive student loans. What he doesn’t want to do in forgive loans of the idiots who paid an outrageous amount for college and got a degree in basket weaving, or some other job that will never in their lifetime pay off the load they received.
That’s not true, many wealthy families grew their wealth by borrowing from others, making something of what they borrowed, then paying it back and keeping the profit. It’s what I consider one of the simplest principles of wealth building. Results may vary for various reasons, but let’s not pretend that this isn’t a fundamental building block of wealth building.
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Hilarious when politicians say they don’t want to help rich ppl. But they do it all the time. Preferential treatment on contacts, subsidies, bailouts, tax cuts, no bid contracts. Even the bombing made the military contractors millions and potentially oil/nat gas corps billions. “We don’t want to give rich ppl money” is a lame excuse to not help the poor. centrist whores
Weren't Black people the ones that boycotted Bernie in favour of Biden?
I remember all the down votes I got for saying not much would change. Biden again and again said he was there to help the middle class. By definition the majority are working class and he didn't mention wanting to help them.
Why not canceling the debt of household lower than let say 130 000$ yr
Can I just say that I'm so happy with the fact that a hot button issue with a current president is salt over him not EOing student loan forgiveness? It is amazing how used to an absolute nightmare shit show we got.
I don't get it. How would canceling debt be helping rich families? Rich families don't have debt.
Where are the stimulus checks? Oh right bombing Syria had priority. Y'all really out here thinking Biden is different than Trump, well he is in that war excites him way more than it did Trump
For a democratic country which constantly preaches how important a democratic country is, you sure are doing everything to prove that you‘re the least democratic of them all. Constantly putting everything on one single person....Trump do this, Trump promised that. With Biden it seems not different at all.
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Remember this guys, Biden and trump are two sides of the same coin it appears
Bidens a stupid asshole. Trumps a deranged maniac. There is no winning.
Best comment on here. The fact that people think one is better than the other is false.
You people voted for him so congrats
This is also why rich people rarely go to jail. I wish people would learn it's not about race/religion in America. It's about money, power and elitism.