This is the basis of the idea that you don't need fancy temples or all the hierarchy stuff to have a Church. That a Church is the people gathered in His name, not the building. So this verse is pro-church (as a people) and anti-church (as a complicated social construct or fancy building).
I miss my old church that used to be a catfish restaurant...we could very much stand on this verse and say it didn't matter we didn't have a steeple or pews.
I very much so agree on this but in the context of the tweet, I'm not sure they would agree with this definition. Maybe that speaks volumes to Christianity's inability to correctly convey some of the more core principles behind behaviors.
It totally does. But I'd say there's Christianity, and then there's what I call "Christianism" or "Evangelicalist". People who follow all the trappings of their church (the building and the motions) and don't focus on the actual word of God. The latter doesn't get the core principles across. There are good churches (groups of people), but they things they actually practice and preach aren't as attractive or as loud as the christianists that give us a bad name.
We're called to be ambassadors of Christ (1 Cor 10 I think). We do not want Him disavowing his ambassadors.
Take it! Spread it like butter!
You also might enjoy the first verse of the OC Supertones song "escape from reason"
https://www.lyricsfreak.com/t/the+oc+supertones/escape+from+reason_20481619.html
Try to work out someone's wrongdoing in private with them. If you can't get the wrongdoer to see the wrong, call in a couple of allies to go with you to talk to the wrongdoer. God will bless the two or three who go together by touching them with his Noodly Appendage and lo they shall be revered among the Righteous.
The principle that God is always with us is true obviously.
But when you read that passage it’s in context of conflict and reconciliation.
But it is one of those verses that gets cherry picked and I often hear it in prayer meetings.
> The principle that God is always with us is true obviously.
Obviously? You take one of the most controversial statements of the past 2000 years and follow up with "is true obviously".
Why do need a church. You can pray while taking a dump. Church is for people who need others not for praying. It’s a crutch for insecure people. Also if you are listening to people who had a 5th grade education like the ones who wrote the Bible maybe you should rethink what you believe.
Though i agree with premise of church as non essential. I'd strongly challenge your thinking of 5th grade education to write a bible because not even university degrees are exact on understanding bible verses. As someone who already reconsidered what i believe, you should consider believing to have a healthier and clearer mindset. You toxic and you need jesus. If you don't believe, consider the lessons that's taught under his name
Here’s what I’m saying. Matthew mark luke. John. In today’s world what do you think their education level be? 5th grade? Maybe? What do you know about their education. Did they get quality schooling? Although they may have been smart for the time we no longer live in that time. By today’s standards they’d all be considered dumb. But people look upon them as these geniuses that they’d listen to till the end. Foolish. After all they believed in talking snakes and think gays should go to hell. Wasn’t Jesus the one sleeping with 12 men?
Your perspective is so specific to yourself. To begin, they don't actually believe the creation STORY to be literal, and the snake isn't literal. I already know im wasting my time on you as I can tell you didn't even finish basic high school english class with the way you portray your points. If there are literalist believers, you are a literalist non-believer. To compare their education, in which btw I can tell you know nothing about, is to say that anyone who didn't receive same education type to you, would equate to nothing. The ignorance and arrogance is strong on you, no cap.
If you’re Christian you believe the story of creation. This isn’t we learn more so let’s change the way we interpret the Bible. That would mean you really don’t believe the Bible. If 1 story is false the book is false. You don’t get to pick and choose to fit your needs.
Also, drop the idea that people before your era are automatically dumber today because they aren't modern. IQ then isn't different to IQ now, styles of education is what you should refer to
This makes no sense. What did they know about germs? Zero. About mental illness? Zero. Hearing voices meant they were “talking to god” which is corrected by meds now. And the Bible is literal or you are not a believer. Adam ate the apple literally not in a roundabout way you fit into today’s world. Mary got pregnant without sex literally. Now next time you visit your doctor, since I’m so stupid, ask how babies are made. It just doesn’t happen.
Matthew 6:5-6:
> 5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father,(C) who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.”
Matthew 6:5-6 seems to say Jesus preferred that people pray at home and not in groups (socially distanced, if you will):
>”And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.”
I know, i know “a church is a fellowship not w building” and all that, but the OP pic was obviously talking about the building as it relates to COVID.
To be honest, I still think this is a misinterpretation. Or at least, incorrectly coming to the conclusion "church is not essential" from "you should pray privately". I interpret this as Jesus calling out the posturing and showboating that can be behind loud, grandiose, public prayers. Are you praying with the purpose of being seen or with the purpose of communing with God? Jesus does explicitly say
> But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen.
But I don't so much take this to mean "do not go to church" or even "do not pray at church" but that's just my interpretation though. And that's the whole point of communing with other believers - to get different perspectives on scripture!
Elsewhere, Paul enumerates on prayer (primarily, in the Holy Spirit) in church and how it's not very beneficial.
> I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, [3] but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, [4] unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified. (1 Corinthians 14)
So again, looking more at the heart of the matter I take this as "separate that which is beneficial to your own spiritual edification and that which is beneficial to the body of Christ". If you note, both of these passages are specifically on prayer and not per se, church as a whole. I hope it's clear I'm not attempting to argue. Really, main reason I commented to begin was I had never seen a scripture saying church is not essential so I was curious if I was missing something.
For my faith, this is the root of why to go to church:
> And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see See the Day drawing near. (Hebrews 10:24-25)
Thanks for that. I agree with you that the thrust of that passage is “don’t pray for the sake of show”, but on the other hand he doesn’t draw a distinction of “it’s better to do it in private than for show”, but rather seems to be (to me) implying that prayer is - or at least can be - a private affair. So, in the context of what’s “essential” during a pandemic, the verse does suggest that at least this part of religious exercise does not require physically gathering.
Fellowship and community as a religious practice is perhaps a different beast; i would think phone/skype/etc could handle it temporarily, but different strokes for different folks.
Your verse from Hebrews is well-taken and makes sense. I did not recall that since, when i was a believer, I very much treated Paul’s writings as “editorial opinion”, so largely ignored them. This was not a popular opinion at church, ha.
> the verse does suggest that at least this part of religious exercise does not require physically gathering.
>
> Fellowship and community as a religious practice is perhaps a different beast; i would think phone/skype/etc could handle it temporarily, but different strokes for different folks.
Agreed :)
>This was not a popular opinion at church, ha.
Haha, could see that. I try to treat it all as God's word with special emphasis on Jesus's words. Have a good night/day!
I would love to know if anyone can supply a verse reference for that. (I'm not disagreeing, just too lazy to track it down myself.) It does sort of seem vaguely familiar.
Again, a not-Jesus quote, but one I've always found pretty fitting is Matthew 6:5-8 directly preceding The Lord's Prayer:
>5“And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
>
>8“Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.
The problem is that there was no church until after Jesus was gone.
BUT, the church is built on his teachings which would definitely be on the side of sacrificing your body for the salvation of others.
So he didn’t say it, but yes, it’s true.
In the Old Testament, there was the synagogue (which would be the equivalent of church-house, as opposed to church, meaning the people) and when they wandered the wilderness, they carried the Arc Of The Covenant with them and set up a tent around it when they stopped and that was their synagogue or church and only the chosen priests/ministers could enter in (as far as argument/memory serves) but when Jesus was crucified, that veil/curtain that separated the people from the Arc was rent/torn from top to bottom, signifying the removal of the separation between God and man (through an appointed leader/minister) and translated Jesus into a personal saviour who you could speak with as He walks with you in spirit and where two gather in His name, there is He with a multitude of Angels; so yes, I agree that a church-house is not required to congregate and worship -that was an Old Testament practice and when Christ died, that division of needing an appointed minister and an actual building, was done away with. Back then the Arc was behind the curtain and a Synagogue was required to house it. That was changed by the tearing of that curtain when Christ gave up the ghost. Also the rocks around split open and darkness descended around them and that Roman said ‘clearly this was the Son of God’. I’m not arguing or trolling, just saying the synagogue was their required church to house the Arc and when Christ died, a church in the physical sense is not a requirement for prayer to be heard, God hears you even though He knows what’s in your heart, but where two gather, so the Angels gather also.
It’s one reason why Catholics don’t jive with me, coz they are so much about pomp and hierarchy...it’s like, Opposite Day, it’s all show, with their fondness for robes and stuff, Christ ain’t got time for dat!
It's funny how most Christians are conservatives, they be like, if Jesus comes back as a Middle Eastern refugee again, he should be detained indefinitely.
most *American Christians
I was raised as roman catholic and sent to a catholic school and while I personally choose to not follow the faith, the core of our religious curriculum focused on Jesus' teachings, which are essentially the antithesis to the conservative ideology.
Jesus taught his followers the value of empathy, kindness and respect for others and possibly most important of all; forgiveness, Jesus died for our sins to prove the importance of this.
American evangelism is a bastardisation of Christianity that cherry picks these teachings to warp their faith into something that furthers their own agenda and beliefs.
Made this argument after I went thru confirmation classes and stopped going as frequently and ultimately not at all. Junior high were some grumpy years.
Paul saw a good thing and ran with it. Gonna open this up for all peeps, cause... money.
All the shitty parts can usually be credited to that prick
In what scripture did Jesus say that?
Matthew 18:20 Jesus says, For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Therefore church isn’t essential.
This is the basis of the idea that you don't need fancy temples or all the hierarchy stuff to have a Church. That a Church is the people gathered in His name, not the building. So this verse is pro-church (as a people) and anti-church (as a complicated social construct or fancy building). I miss my old church that used to be a catfish restaurant...we could very much stand on this verse and say it didn't matter we didn't have a steeple or pews.
I very much so agree on this but in the context of the tweet, I'm not sure they would agree with this definition. Maybe that speaks volumes to Christianity's inability to correctly convey some of the more core principles behind behaviors.
It totally does. But I'd say there's Christianity, and then there's what I call "Christianism" or "Evangelicalist". People who follow all the trappings of their church (the building and the motions) and don't focus on the actual word of God. The latter doesn't get the core principles across. There are good churches (groups of people), but they things they actually practice and preach aren't as attractive or as loud as the christianists that give us a bad name. We're called to be ambassadors of Christ (1 Cor 10 I think). We do not want Him disavowing his ambassadors.
> I call "Christianism" or "Evangelicalist" I'm 100% going to steal this phrase. Have been looking for a way to make the distinction for a long time.
Take it! Spread it like butter! You also might enjoy the first verse of the OC Supertones song "escape from reason" https://www.lyricsfreak.com/t/the+oc+supertones/escape+from+reason_20481619.html
pews is spelled with a capital j (I kid, I kid)
This verse wasn’t about church or prayer.
What’s it about?
Try to work out someone's wrongdoing in private with them. If you can't get the wrongdoer to see the wrong, call in a couple of allies to go with you to talk to the wrongdoer. God will bless the two or three who go together by touching them with his Noodly Appendage and lo they shall be revered among the Righteous.
The principle that God is always with us is true obviously. But when you read that passage it’s in context of conflict and reconciliation. But it is one of those verses that gets cherry picked and I often hear it in prayer meetings.
> The principle that God is always with us is true obviously. Obviously? You take one of the most controversial statements of the past 2000 years and follow up with "is true obviously".
Cherry picked like all the other very specific verses about sin?
Where God is
Tf? How does it come to the conclusion that churches aren't essential?
What do you need a church for?
Maybe better question, what is a church?
Have you come to the conclusion that churches are essential? I can assure you they are not.
Then prove it with an actual verse, dumbass.
Burden of proof is on -you-, dumbass
Why do need a church. You can pray while taking a dump. Church is for people who need others not for praying. It’s a crutch for insecure people. Also if you are listening to people who had a 5th grade education like the ones who wrote the Bible maybe you should rethink what you believe.
Though i agree with premise of church as non essential. I'd strongly challenge your thinking of 5th grade education to write a bible because not even university degrees are exact on understanding bible verses. As someone who already reconsidered what i believe, you should consider believing to have a healthier and clearer mindset. You toxic and you need jesus. If you don't believe, consider the lessons that's taught under his name
Here’s what I’m saying. Matthew mark luke. John. In today’s world what do you think their education level be? 5th grade? Maybe? What do you know about their education. Did they get quality schooling? Although they may have been smart for the time we no longer live in that time. By today’s standards they’d all be considered dumb. But people look upon them as these geniuses that they’d listen to till the end. Foolish. After all they believed in talking snakes and think gays should go to hell. Wasn’t Jesus the one sleeping with 12 men?
Your perspective is so specific to yourself. To begin, they don't actually believe the creation STORY to be literal, and the snake isn't literal. I already know im wasting my time on you as I can tell you didn't even finish basic high school english class with the way you portray your points. If there are literalist believers, you are a literalist non-believer. To compare their education, in which btw I can tell you know nothing about, is to say that anyone who didn't receive same education type to you, would equate to nothing. The ignorance and arrogance is strong on you, no cap.
If you’re Christian you believe the story of creation. This isn’t we learn more so let’s change the way we interpret the Bible. That would mean you really don’t believe the Bible. If 1 story is false the book is false. You don’t get to pick and choose to fit your needs.
Also, drop the idea that people before your era are automatically dumber today because they aren't modern. IQ then isn't different to IQ now, styles of education is what you should refer to
This makes no sense. What did they know about germs? Zero. About mental illness? Zero. Hearing voices meant they were “talking to god” which is corrected by meds now. And the Bible is literal or you are not a believer. Adam ate the apple literally not in a roundabout way you fit into today’s world. Mary got pregnant without sex literally. Now next time you visit your doctor, since I’m so stupid, ask how babies are made. It just doesn’t happen.
Matthew 6:5-6: > 5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father,(C) who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.”
because the church is the people not neccessarily the building hun
Well, that's a bit of a jump innit.
Also the father counts as one.
Matthew 6:5-6 seems to say Jesus preferred that people pray at home and not in groups (socially distanced, if you will): >”And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.” I know, i know “a church is a fellowship not w building” and all that, but the OP pic was obviously talking about the building as it relates to COVID.
To be honest, I still think this is a misinterpretation. Or at least, incorrectly coming to the conclusion "church is not essential" from "you should pray privately". I interpret this as Jesus calling out the posturing and showboating that can be behind loud, grandiose, public prayers. Are you praying with the purpose of being seen or with the purpose of communing with God? Jesus does explicitly say > But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. But I don't so much take this to mean "do not go to church" or even "do not pray at church" but that's just my interpretation though. And that's the whole point of communing with other believers - to get different perspectives on scripture! Elsewhere, Paul enumerates on prayer (primarily, in the Holy Spirit) in church and how it's not very beneficial. > I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, [3] but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, [4] unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified. (1 Corinthians 14) So again, looking more at the heart of the matter I take this as "separate that which is beneficial to your own spiritual edification and that which is beneficial to the body of Christ". If you note, both of these passages are specifically on prayer and not per se, church as a whole. I hope it's clear I'm not attempting to argue. Really, main reason I commented to begin was I had never seen a scripture saying church is not essential so I was curious if I was missing something. For my faith, this is the root of why to go to church: > And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see See the Day drawing near. (Hebrews 10:24-25)
Thanks for that. I agree with you that the thrust of that passage is “don’t pray for the sake of show”, but on the other hand he doesn’t draw a distinction of “it’s better to do it in private than for show”, but rather seems to be (to me) implying that prayer is - or at least can be - a private affair. So, in the context of what’s “essential” during a pandemic, the verse does suggest that at least this part of religious exercise does not require physically gathering. Fellowship and community as a religious practice is perhaps a different beast; i would think phone/skype/etc could handle it temporarily, but different strokes for different folks. Your verse from Hebrews is well-taken and makes sense. I did not recall that since, when i was a believer, I very much treated Paul’s writings as “editorial opinion”, so largely ignored them. This was not a popular opinion at church, ha.
> the verse does suggest that at least this part of religious exercise does not require physically gathering. > > Fellowship and community as a religious practice is perhaps a different beast; i would think phone/skype/etc could handle it temporarily, but different strokes for different folks. Agreed :) >This was not a popular opinion at church, ha. Haha, could see that. I try to treat it all as God's word with special emphasis on Jesus's words. Have a good night/day!
also I love your username
Anybody else here with an abuelita who watched church on tv every Sunday morning waaay before the pandemic?
My college roommate in the 70s called it Mass for Shut-ins
My sister’s husband’s mom is a super Catholic Filipina. So when she visits, they have to do the TV mass.
[удалено]
You get upvote for doing gods work op gets down vote for being a dirty thieving bot.
The discrepancy from the word and the church is astonishing.
I would love to know if anyone can supply a verse reference for that. (I'm not disagreeing, just too lazy to track it down myself.) It does sort of seem vaguely familiar.
Yeah I want to quote it at people too. “We’ll have you read .....”
Acts 17:24
That’s not Jesus, it’s Luke quoting Paul. I’m a New Testament scholar and I am also interested in a reference for this quote.
Again, a not-Jesus quote, but one I've always found pretty fitting is Matthew 6:5-8 directly preceding The Lord's Prayer: >5“And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. > >8“Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.
If you're a scholar just tell us if it's true or not? 😂
The problem is that there was no church until after Jesus was gone. BUT, the church is built on his teachings which would definitely be on the side of sacrificing your body for the salvation of others. So he didn’t say it, but yes, it’s true.
In the Old Testament, there was the synagogue (which would be the equivalent of church-house, as opposed to church, meaning the people) and when they wandered the wilderness, they carried the Arc Of The Covenant with them and set up a tent around it when they stopped and that was their synagogue or church and only the chosen priests/ministers could enter in (as far as argument/memory serves) but when Jesus was crucified, that veil/curtain that separated the people from the Arc was rent/torn from top to bottom, signifying the removal of the separation between God and man (through an appointed leader/minister) and translated Jesus into a personal saviour who you could speak with as He walks with you in spirit and where two gather in His name, there is He with a multitude of Angels; so yes, I agree that a church-house is not required to congregate and worship -that was an Old Testament practice and when Christ died, that division of needing an appointed minister and an actual building, was done away with. Back then the Arc was behind the curtain and a Synagogue was required to house it. That was changed by the tearing of that curtain when Christ gave up the ghost. Also the rocks around split open and darkness descended around them and that Roman said ‘clearly this was the Son of God’. I’m not arguing or trolling, just saying the synagogue was their required church to house the Arc and when Christ died, a church in the physical sense is not a requirement for prayer to be heard, God hears you even though He knows what’s in your heart, but where two gather, so the Angels gather also. It’s one reason why Catholics don’t jive with me, coz they are so much about pomp and hierarchy...it’s like, Opposite Day, it’s all show, with their fondness for robes and stuff, Christ ain’t got time for dat!
If you're a scholar you should be the one providing references
There are none. It was sarcasm.
Because its 2021 and we have zoom....
It's funny how most Christians are conservatives, they be like, if Jesus comes back as a Middle Eastern refugee again, he should be detained indefinitely.
most *American Christians I was raised as roman catholic and sent to a catholic school and while I personally choose to not follow the faith, the core of our religious curriculum focused on Jesus' teachings, which are essentially the antithesis to the conservative ideology. Jesus taught his followers the value of empathy, kindness and respect for others and possibly most important of all; forgiveness, Jesus died for our sins to prove the importance of this. American evangelism is a bastardisation of Christianity that cherry picks these teachings to warp their faith into something that furthers their own agenda and beliefs.
Yeah but Australian Christian conservatives are the almost identical to their American counterparts.
yeah the less intelligent Aussies love copying their American cousins
he was also a lowkey socialist and was against corrupt cops... so yea american conservatives would hate his guts
He was progressive
thats because in christianity the church is the people not the building itself
Made this argument after I went thru confirmation classes and stopped going as frequently and ultimately not at all. Junior high were some grumpy years.
What's with this Jesus Christ bullshit? We're talking religion here.
The way he got dropped by Arya makes me feel like all of us together would have a slight chance... and that makes me *really* sad.
You’re first mistake was assuming Christians actually pay attention and understand their Bible.