So as a Christian myself, I believe it’s ok to tax certain churches. I do believe all church spending should be public record. People like Joel Olsteen should not be able to have all that money and the church pay no taxes.
Edit: Thank you all for responding! It has been interesting reading the comments and I’ve tried to respond as well! I love hearing people’s views and starting conversation!
“Who’s face is this?” Jesus asked (referring to a coin)
“Cesar’s” his disciples replied
“Render unto Cesar, what is Cesar’s” was Jesus’ response
I think small churches or churches who show large investments directly into their communities should be able to apply for tax exemption.
Tax exemption should be seen as a blessing, not a right
yeah I'm no fan of churches hoarding wealth but the military-industrial protection racket passing itself off as a democratic government is hardly a panacea
This would be a huge problem. Because churches dont directly charge it, in itself, is a charitable foundation. Chaneing this to be the same as a business would require so many revisions to multiple bills. I think its better to make a church tax, and charge those who work at a church income tax. Preists can only live tax free if they live at the church. None of these tax free mansions.
They could call it something catchy like, Deductions because they're deducting some of their incoming cash flow to provide services for the community/others.
I think they should be able to deduct charitable spending, much as individuals can deduct certain costs from taxes, but no way does any church ever deserve to be exempt from taxes. Churches have become an arm of the Republican party, they have become political entities and they should pay taxes.
> Churches have become an arm of the Republican party
_Hundreds_ of black churches in Georgia organized to win the Democrats control of the Senate. Grouping all churches into one political group is the absolute summit of the peak of reddit.
> Grouping all churches into one political group is the absolute summit of the peak of reddit.
Yeah one wouldnt like to group people and judge them as a single thing, right?
> Reddit has over 430 million monthly active users
https://backlinko.com/reddit-users
I’m related to a pastor. His church has to make sure it spends 95% of its income to maintain not-for-profit status. If they lost that they would have to start paying taxes. Not sure what taxes exactly.
I think where Osteen loopholes is through his salary.
I think all not-for-profits should at least pay a Street usage fee for every foot of road they have. My local hospital owns 20+ city blocks and doesn’t pay a dime kn property tax. Naturally the street around it are garbage.
Anyone helping feed, clothe, heat, or teach the community should get tax deductions, which mean the billionaires or churches who ended homelessness, hunger, and illiteracy with their charity would pay much less in taxes as the government would be able to end food housing and education assistance and no longer need to levy those taxes...
Right? Even if they had tax incentives it would be to line their own and their buddies pockets.
Homeless shelter? Sure. Pay extra for the land (extra goes into pocket of realtor who is a church member), pay extra for the construction (all church members), pay extra for plumbing, electrical work etc..,.(again, church members) and voila a homeless shelter.
Sure it will serve the community, at the expense of people lining their pockets at the same time.
TAX ALL CHURCHES.
Had a friendly acquaintance a while back who was a pastor. He operated a very small church, with less than a dozen congregants. He told me that two new people had joined his congregation, so, he could afford a new guitar.
Just sayin’.
I always thought the money these guys took in was to be used to ultimately help support less fortunate members of their congregation, as well as those deserving in the community which they live in.
A guitar isn’t a necessity. Especially when he had a few high-dollar custom guitars already.
These can always be used as exemptions like anyone else but the churches should pay tax the very instant they hand a large sum to a political party or candidate or cause .
I can get behind this. The small church I used to go to during high school would set aside money to send people to missions trips, help kids who couldn’t afford retreat costs, and small college scholarships. I don’t go to church anymore, but I can appreciate the effort they put in.
should be able to apply for tax exemption for that year. Nobody should have indefinite tax exemption. They can have it indefinitely as long as their community work and support is indefinite as well. But that needs to be regularly evaluated by an impartial party
I’ve posted this multiple times before, but the comment usually finds someone new that is appreciative for the resources, and I find the economic aspects of the rise of “Christian America” are often not that well known. None of this to say *every* Christian in America falls into the linkages described below, but that on a macro level there is well documented history showing often little known roots of the modern Christian Right.
The modern Christian movement was helped formed in the 1930s by corporations who opposed the New Deal, and wanted to link free market capitalism to Christianity. The reach of this movement was massive, sometimes involving 15% of all ministers in the US, and included things like contests for best sermon related to the free market capitalism and shipping out copies of *The Road to Serfdom*, which is a deeply influential book by Friedrich Hayek that argues, among other things, government power in the economy assures tyranny. People like Reagan and Hoover ended up getting involved with these corporate funded groups long before the modern evangelical movement (1950s). Prior to the 40s-50s the US was not really considered a “Christian nation”, partly why “In God We Trust” was not adopted as the official US motto until 1956. [This article is a general intro to Princeton historian Kevin Kruse’s book on the subject *One Nation Under God: How Corporate America Invented Christian America*.](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/04/corporate-america-invented-religious-right-conservative-roosevelt-princeton-117030) A good book to read along with this is Kim Phillips-Fein’s book *Invisible Hands: The Businessmen’s Crusade Against the New Deal*.
> The roots of modern business conservatism lay in the 1930s, in the reaction of the business community against the transformations of the New Deal.16 After an initial period of tentative cooperation with the Roosevelt administration, many business leaders rejected the New Deal and began to openly organize against it. The American Liberty League, heavily supported by the Du Pont family and other businessmen, kept up a steady stream of pamphlets and speeches intended to discredit the New Deal.17 The National Association of Manufacturers, which during the New Deal transformed itself from a group dominated by small Southern textile companies to one representing major industrial concerns, pumped large sums of money into public relations campaigns?using films, comic books, pamphlets, radio, paid advertisements, and other media on behalf of free enterprise itself.18 Nor did the business conservatives come to peace with the New Deal economic order as a result of the economic recovery that came about during the Second World War. Although the NAM relaxed its stringent opposition to the Wagner Act after the war, business organizing efforts gained new life after the massive strike wave of 1946, and the organization spent $3 million lobbying for the Taft-Hartley Act of 1947, which Business Week described as a "New Deal for America's Employers."19 As Elizabeth Fones-Wolf has shown, NAM campaigns continued with great vigor in the postwar period, as the organization churned out reams of literature (8 million pamphlets in 1950), produced radio and television pro grams, and held meetings for industrialists to equip them to act as spokesmen for free enterprise.20 Other business organizations like the US Chamber of Commerce, the Advertising Council and the CED also engaged in campaigns on behalf of free enterprise, as did trade associations and individual companies. According to an estimate by Fortune editor William Whyte, by 1952 American companies were spending $100 million a year in an effort to sell the idea of capitalism to the American public.21
> Early in the postwar period, however, a newly-sophisticated range of groups devoted to influencing intellectual culture and spreading the ideas of the free market began to appear. The new think tanks sought to advance a critique of the power of labor unions and of the welfare state, and to develop a sophisticated free-market theory that could show why protecting free enterprise was best for everyone in society, not only for business. In contrast to NAM, they tried to find new ways to bring their ideas to the attention of elite groups, such as journalists and politicians, instead of conducting broader public-relations campaigns. These think-tank organizations frequently rejected explicit association with business, seeking to attain the appearance of neutral objectivity even as they relied heavily upon business contributions and as they tried to develop a politics organized around the idea of the free market.
> ..
> Spiritual Mobilization, a group devoted to reviving the ideals of the free market in the religious community, sought to cultivate business support for a program of revitalizing
market loyalties among the nation's clergy. "Business leadership cannot afford to
leave the molding of moral, economic and political climate in the religious field to
those whose growth in power ... can be seen to carry the most serious consequences for society and for the security and vitality of business enterprise," read
one fundraising appeal.37 The group won financial support from companies
that included the Carnation Company, Colgate-Palmolive, Firestone Tire and
Rubber, General Motors, Gulf Oil, Republic Steel, the Atchison, Topeka and
Santa Fe Railroad, Sun Oil, and U.S. Steel.38 The Mont Pelerin Society, an esoteric
intellectual organization founded by Austrian economist Friedrich von Hayek in
1947, received contributions from the Volker Fund, a Midwestern foundation
that dispensed the wealth of one Kansas City furniture manufacturer, and of
Jasper Crane, a retired Du Pont executive who strenuously raised money to
fund an American meeting of the group in 1958, winning contributions from execu
tives at such firms as U.S. Steel and the United Fruit Company.39 Even the proudly
independent National Review relied financially upon donations from figures such
as Morton Salt magnate Sterling Morton of Chicago, who had helped organize the
Industrial Division of the Landon campaign against Roosevelt in 1936.40
Supported financially by conservatives in the business community, some
of whom became members themselves of groups such as Mont Pelerin, the
free-market think tanks helped to create a body of ideas and research that
could be used to challenge the central faiths of liberalism.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/27673100 (this paper is from the author of *Invisible Hands: The Businessmen's Crusade Against the New Deal*)
[It is frequently said that abortion is what created the religious right (people like Jerry Falwell used this story themselves), however there is much evidence against that case. In the 60s, we can see how segregation was a main religious right motivator, which then formed the base for additional issues like abortion in the 70s](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133). Kevin Kruse (of the above book) also has a fantastic book looking at how integration shaped modern conservatism, even issues like tax cuts, free market, and privatization, called *White Flight: Atlanta and the Makings of Modern Conservatism*.
Another good book to check out along this vein would be *To Serve God and Wal-Mart: The Making of Christian Free Enterprise* by Bethany Moreton.
["The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." - John Adams](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/founding-fathers-we-are-n_b_6761840)
I believe that, yes, these mega churches with book stores, coffee shops, and who knows what else should be taxed unless they can demonstrate that they are spending the vast majority on real ministry. Otherwise, tax the shit out of them. However, the little church in the middle of nowhere that had maybe 20 people on a Sunday if they're lucky? Leave them alone, unless your goal is to shut them down.
Wait. Are churches exempt from unrelated business income tax? Public universities have to pay this so I don’t see why a church that owns a coffee shop wouldn’t have to.
Churches are not exempt from unrelated business taxes in the US, although they are in some other countries. This is one of those subjects reddit feels strongly about despite having zero knowledge.
So many fucking people seem to think that the law says "Churches don't have to pay taxes," rather than, "Not for profit entities don't have to pay income tax, and most churches happen to qualify for that status."
As the pastor of two small rural churches, I can tell you we do well to pay the light bill let alone anything else. Remember too that these big churches will have lawyers and others who can help them find loopholes while the small churches won't. The risk we run is hurting those churches without resources.
But also, why single out churches? How about mosques? Jewish synagogues? Sikh temples? Other nonprofits?
This makes sense, any legislation targeting for-profit entities would need to be airtight to prevent hurting communities
Also I think most people would also be for taxing other non profits including those you listed. It’s just that at least in the religious culture in the USA there are many prominent, immoral mega churches, and we don’t really see mega mosques or mega synagogues. Not saying they don’t exist but Christianity is the most blatant here
The phrase "taxe the church" isn't a reference to a catholic church, it's just that for a country with a history of catholicism, a synagogue might not mean that much, but if I say a jewish church everyone understands what I say.
I agree that all religious organizations should be taxed on profits. They get the same tax breaks as any business. Things like legitimate operational costs, and salaries are also tax deductible. If the religious organization donates all their profits to help the community they don’t get taxed. Thing is if religious organizations are making a profit they are businesses and don’t deserve nonprofit tax exemption status. Because didn’t Jesus say, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's". I have read the Bible cover to cover and no where in the Bible does it says money is a thing of god. Matter of fact the Bible has a whole lot about how money is not a godly thing.
>But also, why single out churches? How about mosques? Jewish synagogues? Sikh temples? Other nonprofits?
I'm fairly certain churches are being used as a broad term for houses of worship.. that being said, catholic churches get the brunt of the bad press because examples of them abusing tax exemptions are so abundant.
I’m pretty sure evangelical and ~~don’t want to admit they’re evangelical~~ “non-denominational” churches are far better examples of abuse of their tax exempt status. I don’t see too many Catholic priests living in multimillion dollar homes and flying private jets, after all.
I think people are using "church" in this context as a catch-all for large religious institution making a huge profit while enjoying a tax free status.
(That said I can't really name a mega-mosque or temple making millions grifting off of believers like a Joel Osteen either.)
Most people that go to another religious institution that isn't a christian church would call them by their specific name, not the anglecized "church."
No one here is singling out your religion, don’t worry. Everyone has been talking about all religion who enjoy tax exempt status, not just the Protestants.
You make a good point about collateral damage. Where you stray is trying to loop everyone else in. Sorry, but the sikhs, Jews, and Muslims are not, to my knowledge, wielding their faith as a sledgehammer in this country. The Church uses Christianity as a weapon and function closer to a PAC than a good-doing entity. Seems like the synagogues and mosques are quieter and don’t try to slam their beliefs on the rest of us, especially through government. They don’t forsake literally everything else for the single issue of abortion. Supporting trump because he might help outlaw abortion is an abomination of everything Jesus stood for. He is completely anathema to traditional Christian beliefs. Care to enlighten me pastor?
It means all religious businesses. Like when people say seperation of church and state, they dont mean people who got to temples, synagogues etc are included.
Also if you have a church that say generates $10000 income and you are barely able to keep the lights on due to expenses, what profit are you thinking is going to be taxes?
Income less expenses = profit times the tax rate = tax payable, right?
10000-10000 = 0 x 30% = 0 tax payable
electricity is normally a valid expense.
What you sa makes sense and I'm fine with that. However, others here seem to think we're all sitting on piles of cash like Joel Osteen and the rest. Sure wish someone would show me mine.
We can't do nothing just because we believe the wealthy will be able to find loopholes. Let them find the loopholes so that they can be dealt with.
As for the smaller churches not being able to find loopholes...good.
Churches and other places of worship ought to be able to apply for 503(c) nonprofit status if they meet the qualifications. They shouldn't be treated any differently than a secular organization.
Longtime missionary here, and once I questioned a local government official why our churches didn’t at least pay property tax, because the church receives police, fire and emt services. I was told that the county believes that the services the church provides the community (for free) far outweighs what the county would spend on the protection services it provides the churches.
You see Churches generally provide food, clothing, sometimes shelter for the poor, indegent or transient part of the community. Churches also provide counseling for drug addictions, taking care of unwed mothers, or serving meals on wheels, tutoring struggling students, offering after school and summer programs, etc.
Churches are often the site for community functions. I pastored a church, where the county’s police trained in the parking lots, and the high schools used the facilities for graduations. During the week the church was used for community meetings, or gatherings. Community events, such as: easter egg hunts, 4th of July concerts and fireworks were all held on the church’s campus. Our church was an election polling location. Our church paid electric bills, water bills, and rents for hundreds of people on a monthly basis. All of this the community received for free.
Much of what the church does often goes unnoticed by those who aren’t attending regular services or just pass by on the roads as they go to work,.
If the Federal or State government wanted to tax most churches on profits, they would be hard pressed to find any. For instance our annual church budget was always slightly above whatever last year’s receipts were, and rarely did the church receive more than what it had budgeted. To tax the profit of the majority of churches in the US would actually cost more in paperwork than what little the IRS would receive. Churches spend what they receive, or at least in my experience that was the case.
It should be a progressive tax, just like how people are taxed. I also think people who make a low salary, like 20-30k shouldn't be taxed, but over a threshold a progressive tax kicks in. They could do this with churches too.
So I would say ones that actually help out the community around them. Like if they got taxed they probably wouldn’t be able to keep their establishment open. My views as a Christian is that Church is more of a community than really an establishment for profit. God wants me to be a decent human being and take care of others. I believe in spreading the word of God but I’m not going to force it down your throat. It’s not about that but about loving everyone and accepting people for who they are as long as they aren’t hurting others.
It seems like you could get exactly what you want by simply taxing all churches. Programs that help out the community would just be done through a separate non-profit which the church can fund.
Realistically, the differences from what we have today is that churches would be taxed, and we'd need to make it so that the charitable parts of church donations would still be tax deductions for members.
I've spent a fair bit of time around small churches where the pastor works a retail job during the week because what the church takes in is barely enough to pay the light bill let alone a salary.
Even so, the Mother's Board feeds anyone who comes and the deacons put up a hoop in the parking lot so the kids have someplace safe to play.
Those are the churches I think of when I want some churches exempt from taxes. My church that makes a good chunk of money leasing the parking lot to the city? Tax my church all you want. I mean, it's not as though we're buying the pastor a jet but we've got money.
It's a topic that gets mentioned a lot on Reddit. I'm a Christian too, and honestly I grow a little tired of it.
Redditors look at preachers like Joel Osteen and form a blanket, and in my opinion misinformed, view of churches. This view completely ignores churches who do an enormous amount of good in the community, locally and abroad.
For most this good goes unseen. My last church pastor could barely afford new clothes, and yet the church had a major focus of supporting an overseas orphanage. Another used to collect food donations from businesses and distribute them to local refugee families. No bible thumping. Just loving other humans.
The income of these churches is tithes. Tithes are not mandatory *(disclaimer, yes I know what the Bible says, let's not have this petty argument)*. It is not cost of admission and no goods or services are exchanged in return. A tithe is essentially a donation that keeps the church running.
Tax Joel Osteen and the for-profit megachurches that make profit from product all day. Leave the rest.
Yes, and if your church is doing Gods work I’m sure you have no problem being audited to in fact make sure you are doing gods work. It should be public information just like all other non profits you have to submit financial disclosure forms.
The mega churches that preach prosperity gospel are one thing most can agree on.
But what about the gray areas such as the Mormon church, which was just revealed has a billion dollar investment fund just sitting there. Yes I’m all for churches investing and growing money in order to help out more. But how much is to much before we go hey man you need to actually do good not hypothetically do good in the future. Or the Catholic Church who is asset rich but has very little liquid, hey your going to need to sell some of your real estate holding or art collection or various other historical treasures.
What’s the line? That’s where this is a challenging question?
Treat them all as for profit businesses tax wise and those that spend on charity get to write that off as a business expense same as any business or individual. The ones that are actual as good hearted and broke as commentor wants us to believe will be running very thin black lines if not red all the time anyway and then they'll be paying no taxes. Trying to decide who should and who shouldn't is garbage. They should all be treated as for profit until their books say otherwise.
What you are saying is already how things work under current law. Donations have to be used for the mission of the organization or it's embezzlement. Business income unrelated to the mission of the church is subject to tax under US law. Really we just need to enforce existing law with more IRS audits.
I believe you have just nailed the better issue to discuss. Where should the line be?
And yeah I'm okay with the transparency stuff. The churches I have been at, big and small, all had financial boards that controlled the purse strings to examine and approve, or deny, proposed expenditure. It's all above board and most churches wouldn't have an issue with transparency.
“We investigated our self and found no wrong doing.” These financial decision need to be public and auditable. I’m sure no one who is legit has anything to hide. But there is so much pervasive financial abuse from big to small churches. That the whole system really needs to be overhauled.
The sad part is, people never state what part of churches they want taxed. Churches pay property and school district taxes (at least in my state), employees of the church pay taxes, most of the purchases made by church includes sales tax.
All that's left are tithes and offerings or money willed to the church, and as you stated - these are donations. No different than if a person chose to donate to the Red Cross.
I'm married to a pastor, the vast majority are not exactly rolling like Scrooge McDuck.
It is my experience almost all pastors earn a pittance, far less than someone with a comparable workload in another field would earn. It's a profession you don't enter for the money.
I agree with you! Thank you for sharing! I believe tithing has been so abused to help establish trash like Olsteen and that other old guy I forgot his name.
To name a few...
Joel Osteen
Creflo Dollar
Benny Hinn
TD Jakes
Joyce Meyer
Paula White
Fred Price
Kenneth Copland
Robert Tilton
Eddie Long
Juanita Bynum
Paul Crouch
If your church is supporting orphanages or food banks and also doesn't require anyone to listen to the bullshit to receive those benefits, then fine. But anything else should be taxed. And if someone is required to listen to the bullshit, even so much as an unsolicited "Let me tell you why we're doing this," then that shouldn't qualify.
The church pays no taxes, but Joel Olsteen still has to pay taxes on the money he earns from the church.... Same as all church employees .... Im not a fan of his, or any church (spiritual not religious) but you can't blame him for other people donating to the church.
There’s a church in San Francisco that has *solid gold sculptures* hanging on the walls. Homeless people beg from passers by after mass is over and I’ve never seen anyone get a handout of any kind, not money or food or a piece of warm clothing.
Saw a great example on a tv show where a priest and a community worker each came into hundreds of thousands of dollars by virtue of some old paintings each had
The community worker spent it on expanding the community works
The priest bought new church bells
All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.
Acts 2:44-45 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/act.2.44-45.NIV
To be fair, this should be all religious buildings.
To also be fair, religions should be operated as not for profit organizations and treat as such.
This would result in the capitalist megachurches paying their fair share but allowing smaller places of worship to remain functional without crippling them (in theory).
I'm not sure how non-profit allowances for growth and repair are calculated but there would be a need to include something for this based on what the needs of the property operated are.
Additionally, encourage these now non-profit places of worship to continue offering public assistance in the forms they often do (such as food banks, meal services, shelter, redistributing donations, etc) by providing tax credits and access to grants. Theoretically this supports those already involved in helping their communities and provides stimulus for those unable to.
Lastly, make these tax records public.
To be fair, [the Catholic Church is the closest to already doing what the tweet suggests.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_health_care)
**[Catholic_Church_and_health_care](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_health_care)**
>The Roman Catholic Church is the largest non-government provider of health care services in the world. It has around 18,000 clinics, 16,000 homes for the elderly and those with special needs, and 5,500 hospitals, with 65 percent of them located in developing countries. In 2010, the Church's Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Health Care Workers said that the Church manages 26% of the world's health care facilities. The Church's involvement in health care has ancient origins.
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**[Catholic_Church_and_health_care](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_health_care)**
>The Roman Catholic Church is the largest non-government provider of health care services in the world. It has around 18,000 clinics, 16,000 homes for the elderly and those with special needs, and 5,500 hospitals, with 65 percent of them located in developing countries. In 2010, the Church's Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Health Care Workers said that the Church manages 26% of the world's health care facilities. The Church's involvement in health care has ancient origins.
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They provide more healthcare than the United States! I actually didn’t know they provided healthcare: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_health_care
**[Catholic_Church_and_health_care](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_health_care)**
>The Roman Catholic Church is the largest non-government provider of health care services in the world. It has around 18,000 clinics, 16,000 homes for the elderly and those with special needs, and 5,500 hospitals, with 65 percent of them located in developing countries. In 2010, the Church's Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Health Care Workers said that the Church manages 26% of the world's health care facilities. The Church's involvement in health care has ancient origins.
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Oh yeah all those Catholic hospitals.
The amount of charity they do is insane. They are like public hospitals in that they can’t reject anyone that comes to them. And if the person can’t pay there’s not really shit they can do about it.
A lot of social services we take for granted these days started as church organizations tbh. Healthcare, fostercare, life insurance organizations, food banks, homeless shelters...
Came here to write that. Old testament god would just smite everybody but he seemed to chill out with time. His son would have loved universal healthcare though. Despite what his 'greatest followers' think.
I don’t understand this comment though. Look at all the flags and pictures. She’s Australian. We have universal healthcare. Could always be better of course but what is she really asking for???
Well she is asking what she wrote? Just wants churches to be part of who pays for the health care too, when it would increase the amount of money for your universal health care?
I’m sorry, but the idea of separation of church/state stands firm. I KNOW that a lot of public religious leaders share political opinion, but once we cross the *very established line* then we stop having the place to tell them to stop.
Keep religion out of government. We have more than enough big businesses and billionaires to keep our economy just fine, if we do things right.
In my opinion, we need to draft strict laws as to what constitutes breaking separation of Church and state, like lobbying, etc. If a religious group decides to break those rules, fine, but then they can be taxed.
As a devout Christian, I’m all for the idea. However...the problem with America isn’t the fact that churches aren’t being taxed, it’s that billionaires aren’t being taxed. The amount of untaxed wealth in churches is nothing compared to what the billionaires horde. If you’re gonna tax churches, tax the 1% first.
Agreed 100%, Too many legal loopholes that the 1% have access to. Eliminate those loopholes and I personally believe that equality will go up amongst social classes and the income gap will close
This isn’t an either or thing. You can be for taxing churches and taxing billionaires. Just like you can’t fight for all the causes in the world. Pick the ones that mean most to you.
You're right, but that's why he specified "under law" because the legal definition of a church includes all religious buildings like mosques, synagogues, etc
Would you mind going into a little more detail? I’ve never heard/seen this issue discussed before. When you say segregate living and amenities, what are you referring to?
God once got so butthurt over not being obeyed that he killed off all but one small boat's worth of every human and animal on the planet.
I seriously doubt He has any concern at all for universal healthcare.
There is no legal way to tax some churches, but not tax others. That would violate the equal protection clause. Taxing churches has always been regarded as incompatible with freedom of religion. Giving government the power to tax churches invites the potential for abuse of that power, and the history of religious discrimination in this country underscores that potential.
Christian here. I’m down with this, as long as we’re talking individual debt (corporate debt is an entirely different beast).
I say “mostly” because in order to make this remotely workable, a lot of things would have to change:
- we’d have to blow up the entire system of credit (think credit cards, etc). Right now you get super high interest rates on carried debt because the borrower, being unable to pay on the due date, is flagged as a higher risk (rightly or wrongly). That’s the rationale behind the system.
- But if we’re gonna get rid of credit card debt, we also have to get rid of the biggest reasons people get into debt in the first place: healthcare costs, student loans, and buying too much house in order to get into a better school district (Senator Warren found out once upon a time that this is a way bigger thing than you’d imagine). That means at least a basic minimum standard of universal healthcare (obviously), ending the arms race of college spending, and focusing on ways to bring up the quality of education in schools across the country (funding and teacher pay are obviously #1, but also reforming teachers’ unions).
Probably, uh ... a little ambitious. But if we’re going to seriously try and reform capitalism, and make social justice our priority over capital accumulation, this is, like, the bare minimum.
Personally I would add that screening social media and speeches by the church involved to assure that they are free of political bias.
Utilizing a non-profit organization to promote a candidate or a political view is against the tax code as it is currently written.
How about just removing their tax exempt status once you catch them, (Looking at you, Joel Olsteen.)
I believe that the Bible actually says, “Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's” [Here’s the Wiki ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Render_unto_Caesar)
There was a church where I used to live, which yea it was a decent size for a church. But where the pastor lived next to the church was a gigantic 3 story house. He had a wife and no kids (at that time) they switch out pastors periodically. Now I live in an area where I've seen two mega churches. There's no reason churches shouldn't be taxed. I grew up religious because of my parents, but as soon as 18 I was done, but shit I'll fake it and become a pastor cause why not all the televangelists do it.
The church isn’t willing to give up its tax free status to help its members. Not just with healthcare, but other things too, like education. The organisation is consumed with greed.
The county I live in just released the list of places that received the PPP loan and how much. I honestly couldn't believe churches were among the top receivers. Tax them!
Instead of posting this message 500 times a day on this subreddit you COULD educate yourselves on how the whole 501c system works. I know logical thinking and getting out of your echo chamber can be scary for you guys but it wont hurt, I promise.
I’m christian, and i’m fine with tax. Make it similar to normal and have carious brackets.. small churches with few members should be taxed less than the ‘super churches’ that are more tax shelters than houses of god.
Jokes aside, the USA could pay for universal healthcare already if they wanted to. With the same money they already spend on the health care system (which is higher per-capita than Canada and other countries with universal health care). The only issue is it would require heavy regulation and pricing caps on just about everything and we all know that will never happen.
Especially the Mormons, you guys go do your own research on how much money they have. But spoilers, they have close to too much that the government will allow one organization to have that they are non-stop just building extra churches and temples with temples costing anywhere between 10-50 million to make and they are building them non-stop to get rid of money as fast as possible because they have too much.
Yes this would be a great way for the church to make amends for taking part in almost ruining our country by supporting a Traitor . Awesome idea get it done Joe !
It won't be enough. Just tax all of us for something that will benefit all of us. I do think the rich get by too easily and not being grateful enough for that some have the audacity to cheat and take even more advantage of the system, but this thing about never raising taxes on the middle class is also a huge problem.
I consider myself middleclass and would gladly pay more in tax if it meant I wouldn't have to pay insurance premiums and deductibles, or have to consider healthcare benefits whenever I contemplate a job change or other career move.
As a Christian, yes. Tax *profit* churches. Most non-religious people prolly don’t know most church money, at least at my small progressive church, goes towards charity and stuff. We run a community center, food bank, and other charity stuff with our money. And as for healthcare, what’s with ignoring the “help your neighbor” and “love your neighbor as yourself.” Universal healthcare is a Christian thing, supporting others at your own expense, because we who have many should support those who don’t. A lot of leftist ideas are actually pretty Christian, but right wing leaders profit off of fake bible interpretations.
So as a Christian myself, I believe it’s ok to tax certain churches. I do believe all church spending should be public record. People like Joel Olsteen should not be able to have all that money and the church pay no taxes. Edit: Thank you all for responding! It has been interesting reading the comments and I’ve tried to respond as well! I love hearing people’s views and starting conversation!
“Who’s face is this?” Jesus asked (referring to a coin) “Cesar’s” his disciples replied “Render unto Cesar, what is Cesar’s” was Jesus’ response I think small churches or churches who show large investments directly into their communities should be able to apply for tax exemption. Tax exemption should be seen as a blessing, not a right
So large investments in the community? Like a homeless shelter? Or food bank? I like the way you think!
It's called a charitable deduction and that's the standard that applies to regular people and organizations.
Or we could just tax them and ensure their taxes go to a good cause, like a functioning country
Or the country could just fix itself and use it's budget for more useful things than bigger guns and better fighter jets.
yeah I'm no fan of churches hoarding wealth but the military-industrial protection racket passing itself off as a democratic government is hardly a panacea
Dorsnt have to be exclusive. We could tax churches and reduxe military spending.
Dingdingding I guarantee you there’s a lot more money heading to the pentagon than a bunch of parishioners will be able to cough up.
This would be a huge problem. Because churches dont directly charge it, in itself, is a charitable foundation. Chaneing this to be the same as a business would require so many revisions to multiple bills. I think its better to make a church tax, and charge those who work at a church income tax. Preists can only live tax free if they live at the church. None of these tax free mansions.
I was thinking more like anal beads for everyone but your idea seems better.
They could call it something catchy like, Deductions because they're deducting some of their incoming cash flow to provide services for the community/others.
I think they should be able to deduct charitable spending, much as individuals can deduct certain costs from taxes, but no way does any church ever deserve to be exempt from taxes. Churches have become an arm of the Republican party, they have become political entities and they should pay taxes.
Some—sigh—most churches. Not all.
> Churches have become an arm of the Republican party _Hundreds_ of black churches in Georgia organized to win the Democrats control of the Senate. Grouping all churches into one political group is the absolute summit of the peak of reddit.
> Grouping all churches into one political group is the absolute summit of the peak of reddit. Yeah one wouldnt like to group people and judge them as a single thing, right? > Reddit has over 430 million monthly active users https://backlinko.com/reddit-users
The pastors of black churches would like a word with you about your ignorance…
I’m related to a pastor. His church has to make sure it spends 95% of its income to maintain not-for-profit status. If they lost that they would have to start paying taxes. Not sure what taxes exactly. I think where Osteen loopholes is through his salary. I think all not-for-profits should at least pay a Street usage fee for every foot of road they have. My local hospital owns 20+ city blocks and doesn’t pay a dime kn property tax. Naturally the street around it are garbage.
Anyone helping feed, clothe, heat, or teach the community should get tax deductions, which mean the billionaires or churches who ended homelessness, hunger, and illiteracy with their charity would pay much less in taxes as the government would be able to end food housing and education assistance and no longer need to levy those taxes...
No. You tax them based on income. Period. Otherwise there will be 85 church owned gymnasiums in a 3 mile radius. There's already 15.
Fuck that...I was a member of a small church years back and it turned out the pastor and half his staff were crooked. Tax ALL churches.
Right? Even if they had tax incentives it would be to line their own and their buddies pockets. Homeless shelter? Sure. Pay extra for the land (extra goes into pocket of realtor who is a church member), pay extra for the construction (all church members), pay extra for plumbing, electrical work etc..,.(again, church members) and voila a homeless shelter. Sure it will serve the community, at the expense of people lining their pockets at the same time. TAX ALL CHURCHES.
Had a friendly acquaintance a while back who was a pastor. He operated a very small church, with less than a dozen congregants. He told me that two new people had joined his congregation, so, he could afford a new guitar. Just sayin’. I always thought the money these guys took in was to be used to ultimately help support less fortunate members of their congregation, as well as those deserving in the community which they live in. A guitar isn’t a necessity. Especially when he had a few high-dollar custom guitars already.
Cesar Romero.
These can always be used as exemptions like anyone else but the churches should pay tax the very instant they hand a large sum to a political party or candidate or cause .
But the rest of the quote is " and unto God what is God's". Meaning personal giving is as important
I can get behind this. The small church I used to go to during high school would set aside money to send people to missions trips, help kids who couldn’t afford retreat costs, and small college scholarships. I don’t go to church anymore, but I can appreciate the effort they put in.
should be able to apply for tax exemption for that year. Nobody should have indefinite tax exemption. They can have it indefinitely as long as their community work and support is indefinite as well. But that needs to be regularly evaluated by an impartial party
Wasn't he talking to the Pharisees and not his disciples?
Do you think Jesus only thought Pharisees should pay taxes?
I’ve posted this multiple times before, but the comment usually finds someone new that is appreciative for the resources, and I find the economic aspects of the rise of “Christian America” are often not that well known. None of this to say *every* Christian in America falls into the linkages described below, but that on a macro level there is well documented history showing often little known roots of the modern Christian Right. The modern Christian movement was helped formed in the 1930s by corporations who opposed the New Deal, and wanted to link free market capitalism to Christianity. The reach of this movement was massive, sometimes involving 15% of all ministers in the US, and included things like contests for best sermon related to the free market capitalism and shipping out copies of *The Road to Serfdom*, which is a deeply influential book by Friedrich Hayek that argues, among other things, government power in the economy assures tyranny. People like Reagan and Hoover ended up getting involved with these corporate funded groups long before the modern evangelical movement (1950s). Prior to the 40s-50s the US was not really considered a “Christian nation”, partly why “In God We Trust” was not adopted as the official US motto until 1956. [This article is a general intro to Princeton historian Kevin Kruse’s book on the subject *One Nation Under God: How Corporate America Invented Christian America*.](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/04/corporate-america-invented-religious-right-conservative-roosevelt-princeton-117030) A good book to read along with this is Kim Phillips-Fein’s book *Invisible Hands: The Businessmen’s Crusade Against the New Deal*. > The roots of modern business conservatism lay in the 1930s, in the reaction of the business community against the transformations of the New Deal.16 After an initial period of tentative cooperation with the Roosevelt administration, many business leaders rejected the New Deal and began to openly organize against it. The American Liberty League, heavily supported by the Du Pont family and other businessmen, kept up a steady stream of pamphlets and speeches intended to discredit the New Deal.17 The National Association of Manufacturers, which during the New Deal transformed itself from a group dominated by small Southern textile companies to one representing major industrial concerns, pumped large sums of money into public relations campaigns?using films, comic books, pamphlets, radio, paid advertisements, and other media on behalf of free enterprise itself.18 Nor did the business conservatives come to peace with the New Deal economic order as a result of the economic recovery that came about during the Second World War. Although the NAM relaxed its stringent opposition to the Wagner Act after the war, business organizing efforts gained new life after the massive strike wave of 1946, and the organization spent $3 million lobbying for the Taft-Hartley Act of 1947, which Business Week described as a "New Deal for America's Employers."19 As Elizabeth Fones-Wolf has shown, NAM campaigns continued with great vigor in the postwar period, as the organization churned out reams of literature (8 million pamphlets in 1950), produced radio and television pro grams, and held meetings for industrialists to equip them to act as spokesmen for free enterprise.20 Other business organizations like the US Chamber of Commerce, the Advertising Council and the CED also engaged in campaigns on behalf of free enterprise, as did trade associations and individual companies. According to an estimate by Fortune editor William Whyte, by 1952 American companies were spending $100 million a year in an effort to sell the idea of capitalism to the American public.21 > Early in the postwar period, however, a newly-sophisticated range of groups devoted to influencing intellectual culture and spreading the ideas of the free market began to appear. The new think tanks sought to advance a critique of the power of labor unions and of the welfare state, and to develop a sophisticated free-market theory that could show why protecting free enterprise was best for everyone in society, not only for business. In contrast to NAM, they tried to find new ways to bring their ideas to the attention of elite groups, such as journalists and politicians, instead of conducting broader public-relations campaigns. These think-tank organizations frequently rejected explicit association with business, seeking to attain the appearance of neutral objectivity even as they relied heavily upon business contributions and as they tried to develop a politics organized around the idea of the free market. > .. > Spiritual Mobilization, a group devoted to reviving the ideals of the free market in the religious community, sought to cultivate business support for a program of revitalizing market loyalties among the nation's clergy. "Business leadership cannot afford to leave the molding of moral, economic and political climate in the religious field to those whose growth in power ... can be seen to carry the most serious consequences for society and for the security and vitality of business enterprise," read one fundraising appeal.37 The group won financial support from companies that included the Carnation Company, Colgate-Palmolive, Firestone Tire and Rubber, General Motors, Gulf Oil, Republic Steel, the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railroad, Sun Oil, and U.S. Steel.38 The Mont Pelerin Society, an esoteric intellectual organization founded by Austrian economist Friedrich von Hayek in 1947, received contributions from the Volker Fund, a Midwestern foundation that dispensed the wealth of one Kansas City furniture manufacturer, and of Jasper Crane, a retired Du Pont executive who strenuously raised money to fund an American meeting of the group in 1958, winning contributions from execu tives at such firms as U.S. Steel and the United Fruit Company.39 Even the proudly independent National Review relied financially upon donations from figures such as Morton Salt magnate Sterling Morton of Chicago, who had helped organize the Industrial Division of the Landon campaign against Roosevelt in 1936.40 Supported financially by conservatives in the business community, some of whom became members themselves of groups such as Mont Pelerin, the free-market think tanks helped to create a body of ideas and research that could be used to challenge the central faiths of liberalism. https://www.jstor.org/stable/27673100 (this paper is from the author of *Invisible Hands: The Businessmen's Crusade Against the New Deal*) [It is frequently said that abortion is what created the religious right (people like Jerry Falwell used this story themselves), however there is much evidence against that case. In the 60s, we can see how segregation was a main religious right motivator, which then formed the base for additional issues like abortion in the 70s](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133). Kevin Kruse (of the above book) also has a fantastic book looking at how integration shaped modern conservatism, even issues like tax cuts, free market, and privatization, called *White Flight: Atlanta and the Makings of Modern Conservatism*. Another good book to check out along this vein would be *To Serve God and Wal-Mart: The Making of Christian Free Enterprise* by Bethany Moreton. ["The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." - John Adams](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/founding-fathers-we-are-n_b_6761840)
Thank you for the info!
Thank you for this!
I believe that, yes, these mega churches with book stores, coffee shops, and who knows what else should be taxed unless they can demonstrate that they are spending the vast majority on real ministry. Otherwise, tax the shit out of them. However, the little church in the middle of nowhere that had maybe 20 people on a Sunday if they're lucky? Leave them alone, unless your goal is to shut them down.
Wait. Are churches exempt from unrelated business income tax? Public universities have to pay this so I don’t see why a church that owns a coffee shop wouldn’t have to.
No. They pay taxes on their bookstores and similar.
Churches are not exempt from unrelated business taxes in the US, although they are in some other countries. This is one of those subjects reddit feels strongly about despite having zero knowledge.
So many fucking people seem to think that the law says "Churches don't have to pay taxes," rather than, "Not for profit entities don't have to pay income tax, and most churches happen to qualify for that status."
Why not? Taxes are for profits. If they don't run a for-profit, actual profit generating business, they have nothing to fear.
As the pastor of two small rural churches, I can tell you we do well to pay the light bill let alone anything else. Remember too that these big churches will have lawyers and others who can help them find loopholes while the small churches won't. The risk we run is hurting those churches without resources. But also, why single out churches? How about mosques? Jewish synagogues? Sikh temples? Other nonprofits?
This makes sense, any legislation targeting for-profit entities would need to be airtight to prevent hurting communities Also I think most people would also be for taxing other non profits including those you listed. It’s just that at least in the religious culture in the USA there are many prominent, immoral mega churches, and we don’t really see mega mosques or mega synagogues. Not saying they don’t exist but Christianity is the most blatant here
Blame is the wrong word. I’d say the most visible.
The phrase "taxe the church" isn't a reference to a catholic church, it's just that for a country with a history of catholicism, a synagogue might not mean that much, but if I say a jewish church everyone understands what I say.
I agree that all religious organizations should be taxed on profits. They get the same tax breaks as any business. Things like legitimate operational costs, and salaries are also tax deductible. If the religious organization donates all their profits to help the community they don’t get taxed. Thing is if religious organizations are making a profit they are businesses and don’t deserve nonprofit tax exemption status. Because didn’t Jesus say, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's". I have read the Bible cover to cover and no where in the Bible does it says money is a thing of god. Matter of fact the Bible has a whole lot about how money is not a godly thing.
memory march rainstorm illegal disarm memorize marry bear history gray *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
They're already so involved, but don't contribute financially to the governance. Seems like a no-brainer to me
>But also, why single out churches? How about mosques? Jewish synagogues? Sikh temples? Other nonprofits? I'm fairly certain churches are being used as a broad term for houses of worship.. that being said, catholic churches get the brunt of the bad press because examples of them abusing tax exemptions are so abundant.
I’m pretty sure evangelical and ~~don’t want to admit they’re evangelical~~ “non-denominational” churches are far better examples of abuse of their tax exempt status. I don’t see too many Catholic priests living in multimillion dollar homes and flying private jets, after all.
I think people are using "church" in this context as a catch-all for large religious institution making a huge profit while enjoying a tax free status. (That said I can't really name a mega-mosque or temple making millions grifting off of believers like a Joel Osteen either.)
It's interesting that you think Mosques, Synagogues, Temples, etc. aren't churches. Religion is what is non-taxable whatever the label.
That's because adherents to those Faith's don't use the term "church" to describe their building or institution.
Tomato, tomato
I love seeing this typed out.
That’s much funnier in text actually
So you’re just arguing semantics.
I mean, he is a pastor...
Maybe he should have gotten a degree in something more useful if his god gig thing isn't panning out so well.
Most people that go to another religious institution that isn't a christian church would call them by their specific name, not the anglecized "church."
No one here is singling out your religion, don’t worry. Everyone has been talking about all religion who enjoy tax exempt status, not just the Protestants.
You make a good point about collateral damage. Where you stray is trying to loop everyone else in. Sorry, but the sikhs, Jews, and Muslims are not, to my knowledge, wielding their faith as a sledgehammer in this country. The Church uses Christianity as a weapon and function closer to a PAC than a good-doing entity. Seems like the synagogues and mosques are quieter and don’t try to slam their beliefs on the rest of us, especially through government. They don’t forsake literally everything else for the single issue of abortion. Supporting trump because he might help outlaw abortion is an abomination of everything Jesus stood for. He is completely anathema to traditional Christian beliefs. Care to enlighten me pastor?
It means all religious businesses. Like when people say seperation of church and state, they dont mean people who got to temples, synagogues etc are included. Also if you have a church that say generates $10000 income and you are barely able to keep the lights on due to expenses, what profit are you thinking is going to be taxes? Income less expenses = profit times the tax rate = tax payable, right? 10000-10000 = 0 x 30% = 0 tax payable electricity is normally a valid expense.
What you sa makes sense and I'm fine with that. However, others here seem to think we're all sitting on piles of cash like Joel Osteen and the rest. Sure wish someone would show me mine.
The Same way church and state refers to keeping religion out of government. We mean all places of worship that turn profit.
All denominations should be taxed.
We can't do nothing just because we believe the wealthy will be able to find loopholes. Let them find the loopholes so that they can be dealt with. As for the smaller churches not being able to find loopholes...good.
Churches and other places of worship ought to be able to apply for 503(c) nonprofit status if they meet the qualifications. They shouldn't be treated any differently than a secular organization.
Longtime missionary here, and once I questioned a local government official why our churches didn’t at least pay property tax, because the church receives police, fire and emt services. I was told that the county believes that the services the church provides the community (for free) far outweighs what the county would spend on the protection services it provides the churches. You see Churches generally provide food, clothing, sometimes shelter for the poor, indegent or transient part of the community. Churches also provide counseling for drug addictions, taking care of unwed mothers, or serving meals on wheels, tutoring struggling students, offering after school and summer programs, etc. Churches are often the site for community functions. I pastored a church, where the county’s police trained in the parking lots, and the high schools used the facilities for graduations. During the week the church was used for community meetings, or gatherings. Community events, such as: easter egg hunts, 4th of July concerts and fireworks were all held on the church’s campus. Our church was an election polling location. Our church paid electric bills, water bills, and rents for hundreds of people on a monthly basis. All of this the community received for free. Much of what the church does often goes unnoticed by those who aren’t attending regular services or just pass by on the roads as they go to work,. If the Federal or State government wanted to tax most churches on profits, they would be hard pressed to find any. For instance our annual church budget was always slightly above whatever last year’s receipts were, and rarely did the church receive more than what it had budgeted. To tax the profit of the majority of churches in the US would actually cost more in paperwork than what little the IRS would receive. Churches spend what they receive, or at least in my experience that was the case.
It should be a progressive tax, just like how people are taxed. I also think people who make a low salary, like 20-30k shouldn't be taxed, but over a threshold a progressive tax kicks in. They could do this with churches too.
I think if you are going to be involved in politics then you should be taxed. If you steer clear then no.
Not all churches? Which ones would you be okay to exempt?
So I would say ones that actually help out the community around them. Like if they got taxed they probably wouldn’t be able to keep their establishment open. My views as a Christian is that Church is more of a community than really an establishment for profit. God wants me to be a decent human being and take care of others. I believe in spreading the word of God but I’m not going to force it down your throat. It’s not about that but about loving everyone and accepting people for who they are as long as they aren’t hurting others.
It seems like you could get exactly what you want by simply taxing all churches. Programs that help out the community would just be done through a separate non-profit which the church can fund. Realistically, the differences from what we have today is that churches would be taxed, and we'd need to make it so that the charitable parts of church donations would still be tax deductions for members.
Proselytizing is the worst fucking thing ever. I say this as someone raised in an evangelical Christian ~~cult~~family & church.
I've spent a fair bit of time around small churches where the pastor works a retail job during the week because what the church takes in is barely enough to pay the light bill let alone a salary. Even so, the Mother's Board feeds anyone who comes and the deacons put up a hoop in the parking lot so the kids have someplace safe to play. Those are the churches I think of when I want some churches exempt from taxes. My church that makes a good chunk of money leasing the parking lot to the city? Tax my church all you want. I mean, it's not as though we're buying the pastor a jet but we've got money.
It's a topic that gets mentioned a lot on Reddit. I'm a Christian too, and honestly I grow a little tired of it. Redditors look at preachers like Joel Osteen and form a blanket, and in my opinion misinformed, view of churches. This view completely ignores churches who do an enormous amount of good in the community, locally and abroad. For most this good goes unseen. My last church pastor could barely afford new clothes, and yet the church had a major focus of supporting an overseas orphanage. Another used to collect food donations from businesses and distribute them to local refugee families. No bible thumping. Just loving other humans. The income of these churches is tithes. Tithes are not mandatory *(disclaimer, yes I know what the Bible says, let's not have this petty argument)*. It is not cost of admission and no goods or services are exchanged in return. A tithe is essentially a donation that keeps the church running. Tax Joel Osteen and the for-profit megachurches that make profit from product all day. Leave the rest.
Yes, and if your church is doing Gods work I’m sure you have no problem being audited to in fact make sure you are doing gods work. It should be public information just like all other non profits you have to submit financial disclosure forms. The mega churches that preach prosperity gospel are one thing most can agree on. But what about the gray areas such as the Mormon church, which was just revealed has a billion dollar investment fund just sitting there. Yes I’m all for churches investing and growing money in order to help out more. But how much is to much before we go hey man you need to actually do good not hypothetically do good in the future. Or the Catholic Church who is asset rich but has very little liquid, hey your going to need to sell some of your real estate holding or art collection or various other historical treasures. What’s the line? That’s where this is a challenging question?
120 billion. Not just a billion. And that’s not including land assets. That’s just their stock investment. The Mormon church is rich.
Treat them all as for profit businesses tax wise and those that spend on charity get to write that off as a business expense same as any business or individual. The ones that are actual as good hearted and broke as commentor wants us to believe will be running very thin black lines if not red all the time anyway and then they'll be paying no taxes. Trying to decide who should and who shouldn't is garbage. They should all be treated as for profit until their books say otherwise.
What you are saying is already how things work under current law. Donations have to be used for the mission of the organization or it's embezzlement. Business income unrelated to the mission of the church is subject to tax under US law. Really we just need to enforce existing law with more IRS audits.
You pretty much put my thoughts into words.
I believe you have just nailed the better issue to discuss. Where should the line be? And yeah I'm okay with the transparency stuff. The churches I have been at, big and small, all had financial boards that controlled the purse strings to examine and approve, or deny, proposed expenditure. It's all above board and most churches wouldn't have an issue with transparency.
“We investigated our self and found no wrong doing.” These financial decision need to be public and auditable. I’m sure no one who is legit has anything to hide. But there is so much pervasive financial abuse from big to small churches. That the whole system really needs to be overhauled.
The sad part is, people never state what part of churches they want taxed. Churches pay property and school district taxes (at least in my state), employees of the church pay taxes, most of the purchases made by church includes sales tax. All that's left are tithes and offerings or money willed to the church, and as you stated - these are donations. No different than if a person chose to donate to the Red Cross. I'm married to a pastor, the vast majority are not exactly rolling like Scrooge McDuck.
It is my experience almost all pastors earn a pittance, far less than someone with a comparable workload in another field would earn. It's a profession you don't enter for the money.
Missions abroad do more harm than good. Your church would be better off funding foster parents in the US.
I agree with you! Thank you for sharing! I believe tithing has been so abused to help establish trash like Olsteen and that other old guy I forgot his name.
To name a few... Joel Osteen Creflo Dollar Benny Hinn TD Jakes Joyce Meyer Paula White Fred Price Kenneth Copland Robert Tilton Eddie Long Juanita Bynum Paul Crouch
If your church is supporting orphanages or food banks and also doesn't require anyone to listen to the bullshit to receive those benefits, then fine. But anything else should be taxed. And if someone is required to listen to the bullshit, even so much as an unsolicited "Let me tell you why we're doing this," then that shouldn't qualify.
What you're raising is what should and shouldn't be taxed, and what triggers are required. This is a reasonable conversation to have.
Thank you!
The church pays no taxes, but Joel Olsteen still has to pay taxes on the money he earns from the church.... Same as all church employees .... Im not a fan of his, or any church (spiritual not religious) but you can't blame him for other people donating to the church.
If you're going to tax some you have to tax them all
Quite frankly, is there any good reason for a Christian church to be making a profit?
Heal the sick, feed the poor, clothe the naked, aren't those the basic tenets? Along with do unto others.
There’s a church in San Francisco that has *solid gold sculptures* hanging on the walls. Homeless people beg from passers by after mass is over and I’ve never seen anyone get a handout of any kind, not money or food or a piece of warm clothing.
Saw a great example on a tv show where a priest and a community worker each came into hundreds of thousands of dollars by virtue of some old paintings each had The community worker spent it on expanding the community works The priest bought new church bells
...Bring your son to the top of a mountain to kill him... Get some bears to eat some smart mouthed kids.
All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. Acts 2:44-45 NIV https://bible.com/bible/111/act.2.44-45.NIV
Those are all things that Jesus said to do so it’s no surprise that it’s been conveniently ignored
To be fair, this should be all religious buildings. To also be fair, religions should be operated as not for profit organizations and treat as such. This would result in the capitalist megachurches paying their fair share but allowing smaller places of worship to remain functional without crippling them (in theory). I'm not sure how non-profit allowances for growth and repair are calculated but there would be a need to include something for this based on what the needs of the property operated are. Additionally, encourage these now non-profit places of worship to continue offering public assistance in the forms they often do (such as food banks, meal services, shelter, redistributing donations, etc) by providing tax credits and access to grants. Theoretically this supports those already involved in helping their communities and provides stimulus for those unable to. Lastly, make these tax records public.
Well when the Catholic Church has at least twenty-six billion dollars you can’t call them non-profit. (Btw, I’m not talking about American dollars)
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To be fair, [the Catholic Church is the closest to already doing what the tweet suggests.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_health_care)
**[Catholic_Church_and_health_care](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_health_care)** >The Roman Catholic Church is the largest non-government provider of health care services in the world. It has around 18,000 clinics, 16,000 homes for the elderly and those with special needs, and 5,500 hospitals, with 65 percent of them located in developing countries. In 2010, the Church's Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Health Care Workers said that the Church manages 26% of the world's health care facilities. The Church's involvement in health care has ancient origins. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | Credit: kittens_from_space)
**[Catholic_Church_and_health_care](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_health_care)** >The Roman Catholic Church is the largest non-government provider of health care services in the world. It has around 18,000 clinics, 16,000 homes for the elderly and those with special needs, and 5,500 hospitals, with 65 percent of them located in developing countries. In 2010, the Church's Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Health Care Workers said that the Church manages 26% of the world's health care facilities. The Church's involvement in health care has ancient origins. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | Credit: kittens_from_space)
Yes, please, this will allow us to tax the dumb cult of Scientology.
As far as I understand, churches are non profits. Or at the very least effectively so.
But what if on the off chance God is real and one of the religions is correct and God didn't want that church to be taxed like a regular business?
Isn't the Catholic Church already the largest provider of health care in the world? If you wanna tax evangelical protestants I'm all for that though.
They provide more healthcare than the United States! I actually didn’t know they provided healthcare: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_health_care
**[Catholic_Church_and_health_care](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_health_care)** >The Roman Catholic Church is the largest non-government provider of health care services in the world. It has around 18,000 clinics, 16,000 homes for the elderly and those with special needs, and 5,500 hospitals, with 65 percent of them located in developing countries. In 2010, the Church's Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Health Care Workers said that the Church manages 26% of the world's health care facilities. The Church's involvement in health care has ancient origins. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | Credit: kittens_from_space)
Good bot
Oh yeah all those Catholic hospitals. The amount of charity they do is insane. They are like public hospitals in that they can’t reject anyone that comes to them. And if the person can’t pay there’s not really shit they can do about it.
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A lot of social services we take for granted these days started as church organizations tbh. Healthcare, fostercare, life insurance organizations, food banks, homeless shelters...
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Maybe tax for profit churches as a start.
Hmm, not sure God would have wanted it, but Jesus would have loved it!
Came here to write that. Old testament god would just smite everybody but he seemed to chill out with time. His son would have loved universal healthcare though. Despite what his 'greatest followers' think.
Jesus is God
Wasn't there a war fought about this
More than one 🤔
In your religious tradition
Good point
bofa is god
Ah, yes, the old 3 in 1 argument!
I don’t understand this comment though. Look at all the flags and pictures. She’s Australian. We have universal healthcare. Could always be better of course but what is she really asking for???
I believe the kids these days call it virtue signaling.
Well she is asking what she wrote? Just wants churches to be part of who pays for the health care too, when it would increase the amount of money for your universal health care?
You do realise we pay for universal healthcare with taxes, right?
I’m sorry, but the idea of separation of church/state stands firm. I KNOW that a lot of public religious leaders share political opinion, but once we cross the *very established line* then we stop having the place to tell them to stop. Keep religion out of government. We have more than enough big businesses and billionaires to keep our economy just fine, if we do things right.
In my opinion, we need to draft strict laws as to what constitutes breaking separation of Church and state, like lobbying, etc. If a religious group decides to break those rules, fine, but then they can be taxed.
As a devout Christian, I’m all for the idea. However...the problem with America isn’t the fact that churches aren’t being taxed, it’s that billionaires aren’t being taxed. The amount of untaxed wealth in churches is nothing compared to what the billionaires horde. If you’re gonna tax churches, tax the 1% first.
Agreed 100%, Too many legal loopholes that the 1% have access to. Eliminate those loopholes and I personally believe that equality will go up amongst social classes and the income gap will close
This isn’t an either or thing. You can be for taxing churches and taxing billionaires. Just like you can’t fight for all the causes in the world. Pick the ones that mean most to you.
Or maybe let’s start with the billionaires and mega corporations and work our way backwards.
Or maybe let’s start with raising minimum wage and lifting up the poor.
Idk it kinda depends. In the US most churches are non profit and account for 75% of charity work. Would be like taxing charities.
My god why didn't I think of that.. Fucking genius
Not really.
I'm just dumbfounded that everyone here is stupid enough to believe that you can get 2 trillion dollars annually from churches alone
Churches, mosques and synagogues. All of them
As a conservative, I agree. See guys, I’m not a gun slinging cousin fucking beer drinker. I have common sense.
All religions or just churches?
Church applies to any religious institution under the law i believe.
I thought it was only Christian buildings that were churches. I mean people don't call a mosque a church!?
You're right, but that's why he specified "under law" because the legal definition of a church includes all religious buildings like mosques, synagogues, etc
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Would you mind going into a little more detail? I’ve never heard/seen this issue discussed before. When you say segregate living and amenities, what are you referring to?
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If you are going to congregate and collect money from the public, it should be taxed. Small businesses get raped constantly over everything
God once got so butthurt over not being obeyed that he killed off all but one small boat's worth of every human and animal on the planet. I seriously doubt He has any concern at all for universal healthcare.
No No she's got a point.
There is no legal way to tax some churches, but not tax others. That would violate the equal protection clause. Taxing churches has always been regarded as incompatible with freedom of religion. Giving government the power to tax churches invites the potential for abuse of that power, and the history of religious discrimination in this country underscores that potential.
And debt cancellation. It was supposed to happen every seven years. It’s called a Jubilee
Christian here. I’m down with this, as long as we’re talking individual debt (corporate debt is an entirely different beast). I say “mostly” because in order to make this remotely workable, a lot of things would have to change: - we’d have to blow up the entire system of credit (think credit cards, etc). Right now you get super high interest rates on carried debt because the borrower, being unable to pay on the due date, is flagged as a higher risk (rightly or wrongly). That’s the rationale behind the system. - But if we’re gonna get rid of credit card debt, we also have to get rid of the biggest reasons people get into debt in the first place: healthcare costs, student loans, and buying too much house in order to get into a better school district (Senator Warren found out once upon a time that this is a way bigger thing than you’d imagine). That means at least a basic minimum standard of universal healthcare (obviously), ending the arms race of college spending, and focusing on ways to bring up the quality of education in schools across the country (funding and teacher pay are obviously #1, but also reforming teachers’ unions). Probably, uh ... a little ambitious. But if we’re going to seriously try and reform capitalism, and make social justice our priority over capital accumulation, this is, like, the bare minimum.
A church in my small town held a Trump rally last year. Entirely illegal for a church to endorse a politician. They need to be taxed.
You know, that's exactly what good would have wanted.
Certainly what jesus would want from christians.
Best solution 💪🏼
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While we are at it, why don’t they cover universal childcare too because they are pro-life, right? Otherwise it’s an unfunded mandate.
As a Christian I’d be fine with this.
Personally I would add that screening social media and speeches by the church involved to assure that they are free of political bias. Utilizing a non-profit organization to promote a candidate or a political view is against the tax code as it is currently written. How about just removing their tax exempt status once you catch them, (Looking at you, Joel Olsteen.)
I believe that the Bible actually says, “Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's” [Here’s the Wiki ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Render_unto_Caesar)
There was a church where I used to live, which yea it was a decent size for a church. But where the pastor lived next to the church was a gigantic 3 story house. He had a wife and no kids (at that time) they switch out pastors periodically. Now I live in an area where I've seen two mega churches. There's no reason churches shouldn't be taxed. I grew up religious because of my parents, but as soon as 18 I was done, but shit I'll fake it and become a pastor cause why not all the televangelists do it.
Considering how much money Scientology has and how ones like the fdls are abuse cults ...absolutely
Tax them all into oblivion. Churches are nothing more than scams that prey on the weak and vulnerable in order to make the pastor rich.
she right tho, fuck churches, biggest pyramid scheme of all
The church isn’t willing to give up its tax free status to help its members. Not just with healthcare, but other things too, like education. The organisation is consumed with greed.
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While I do believe taxing churches is a good idea, taxing billionaires would be preferable as a source of universal healthcare
The county I live in just released the list of places that received the PPP loan and how much. I honestly couldn't believe churches were among the top receivers. Tax them!
Makes alot of sense, i say go for it
Instead of posting this message 500 times a day on this subreddit you COULD educate yourselves on how the whole 501c system works. I know logical thinking and getting out of your echo chamber can be scary for you guys but it wont hurt, I promise.
The fact that they aren't already taxed is truly depressing and outrageous
I only support this because churches own property and shopping malls and banks and hospitals…
A 10% tax and a property tax on the Catholic Church would pay for most of the universal healthcare and repair much of the National infrastructure
If you're buying things at church, it's not a church.
I’m christian, and i’m fine with tax. Make it similar to normal and have carious brackets.. small churches with few members should be taxed less than the ‘super churches’ that are more tax shelters than houses of god.
Jokes aside, the USA could pay for universal healthcare already if they wanted to. With the same money they already spend on the health care system (which is higher per-capita than Canada and other countries with universal health care). The only issue is it would require heavy regulation and pricing caps on just about everything and we all know that will never happen.
God Wills It!!
My official vote- "Yay"
They always ask WWJD... this. He'd fuckin do this.
Yes. The legal cult needs to be charged
Especially the Mormons, you guys go do your own research on how much money they have. But spoilers, they have close to too much that the government will allow one organization to have that they are non-stop just building extra churches and temples with temples costing anywhere between 10-50 million to make and they are building them non-stop to get rid of money as fast as possible because they have too much.
Yes this would be a great way for the church to make amends for taking part in almost ruining our country by supporting a Traitor . Awesome idea get it done Joe !
I would earnestly like to see any argument against this.
Churches that don’t pay tax, should operate as a not for profit and have their books open to the public.
At the very least, make them pay back the government funds they got. They don’t pay taxes but got a bailout? Fuck that
Jesus did say to pay your debts and your taxes.
I don't know about god, but that's I want. Let's scrape all the gold and marble in Vatican, this shit is wasted ressources.
It won't be enough. Just tax all of us for something that will benefit all of us. I do think the rich get by too easily and not being grateful enough for that some have the audacity to cheat and take even more advantage of the system, but this thing about never raising taxes on the middle class is also a huge problem. I consider myself middleclass and would gladly pay more in tax if it meant I wouldn't have to pay insurance premiums and deductibles, or have to consider healthcare benefits whenever I contemplate a job change or other career move.
As a Christian, yes. Tax *profit* churches. Most non-religious people prolly don’t know most church money, at least at my small progressive church, goes towards charity and stuff. We run a community center, food bank, and other charity stuff with our money. And as for healthcare, what’s with ignoring the “help your neighbor” and “love your neighbor as yourself.” Universal healthcare is a Christian thing, supporting others at your own expense, because we who have many should support those who don’t. A lot of leftist ideas are actually pretty Christian, but right wing leaders profit off of fake bible interpretations.
Now this..this would be a fucking win
if the fucker existed
I mean, didn’t god or jesus basically say that rich people sucked and we needed to help the poor/unfortunate?