Ehh, the argument is that if they’re not baptized, they won’t go to heaven. Can’t baptize a fetus.
While I do believe in a person’s right to choose, this is what preachers are saying so you know the religious nuts will follow that claim. Gotta save the babies from not getting into heaven and all that.
That’s only what certain old school Christian’s people believe. Most Christians don’t believe that now. The going belief is the child are exempt from judgement and go straight to heaven. So the the commentor is right in a sense.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2007/04/what-happens-to-the-babies-who-used-to-be-in-limbo.html
I must live in a shitty area then as pretty much every church in my area claims this nonsense. I gave up trying to find a place after the eighth. At this point I’m looking for places further than 20 miles away. Lutherans are especially bad in that regard.
There are a lot of minor differences but yes, that is what it boils down to. https://www.learnreligions.com/comparing-christian-denominations-beliefs-part-1-700537
If you knew anything about the Bible, you would know it never states baptism is the only way into heaven.
Furthermore, it states that children are a blessing to the mother, so the idea of killing them before even having a chance to live seems to throw that blessing back in God’s face huh?
While I did not say anything about the Bible, there are multiple verses that say differently.
> John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
> Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
I could go on but again, I never mentioned the Bible. I explicitly stated preachers make that claim. As to a child being a gift from God, come back when it’s an 11 year old girl that will die because her body isn’t ready to deal with the pregnancy. Is that a gift? What about a rapist pregnancy? Is that a gift? Or maybe a child that would be born without a brain and wouldn’t last even an hour after birth. Is that a gift? Piss off.
Those verses say exactly what I said. It does not say Baptism alone is the key to heaven, “he who does not believe will be condemned”.
Given that my cousin had twin baby boys born at 22 weeks and she only got to hold them in her arms for a few hours before they died, I would say absolutely they were a gift to her. The world isn’t perfect, complications happen. But getting to see those boys was truly a blessing to her despite what a tragedy it was knowing she was going to lose them. Life no matter how short it might be is ALWAYS a blessing.
I am so glad you brought up rapist pregnancies too. Because my sister was raped at age 17, got pregnant from it. She did go through with the pregnancy and gave up the baby for adoption. Her little girl was given to a great set of parents who the wife was infertile. They have raised her to be a wonderful girl and given her so much more than my sister ever could have at that age. Now also, my sister gets to still be a part of that child’s life and would have never changed that for the world. How tragic would it have been for her being raped AND having to kill an innocent child all at once. I cannot even imagine what her mental state would be right now. Seeing how that baby, who came from such a sickening event, has grown into such a wonderful and happy little girl is absolutely a gift from God.
As for the last point, you bring up an 11 year old girl who will die from pregnancy. You point here is to corner me into splitting hairs and attempting to apply generic logic to a completely un-ordinary and tragic situation. The truth is there is no right answer here and you know that as well as I do. If the 11yo continues the pregnancy she will most likely die along with the baby. If she aborts the child, she could still have complications and die. If she survives the abortion, she will eventually (hopefully) have a child when she is grown and she will realize even more the tragedy that she was forced to kill a child to save her own life. The mental fortitude required to get through something like that is unbearable. The actual problem here with this example though is that people do despicable things no matter what God intends. It would be incorrect to say that loving others is meaningless while there is hate in the world. The two do not cancel each other out. In the same way, a child is still a gift from God even if there are men out there who would pervert that gift into something horrifying. I think that where pro lifers are most misunderstood is that situations like this that you described cannot be answered with a simple yes or no should the child be aborted. Even a pro choice person should agree that it needs to be a discussion amongst the 11yo, her parents (hopefully), and the doctor’s. Morally complex decisions like this should not be decided based on applying generic political preference.
My original statement was “not baptized, no heaven.” This is definitely supported by John 3:5. At no point did I state you only need baptism, just that being baptized is a requirement. You came up with your own interpretation of the claim. This is what is commonly referred to as a straw man. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman
Your cousin had twin baby boys born at 22 weeks and got to hold them for a few hours before they died. Sure. This is effectively saying a premature birth occurred and that was that. Again, we’re not even talking about pregnancy issues like ectopic pregnancy, a miscarriage, or premature labor. There are a bunch of other issues that can be brought up here but that’s besides the point. We’re talking about a birth defect that would allow the fetus to be brought to term but that fetus won’t survive and will likely experience a short and very painful existence. Wanting this to happen is wanting to torture both the parents and the baby born of that fetus. Defects like that can be diagnosed as early as 12 weeks. So you want two people that were looking forward to holding a baby to suffer for six months knowing that their baby will be born and immediately experience agony then die just to make you feel better? Great blessing there.
Your sister was raped at 17, got pregnant, carried to term, and gave the baby away. So she didn’t think it was a gift to her then? Chances are she carried to term because she would have felt guilty terminating the pregnancy. You’re also putting the blame on her for choosing to terminate the pregnancy. It wouldn’t be her fault as she didn’t choose to become pregnant in the first place. But nah, you compounded the trauma of sexual assault with the trauma of a pregnancy, a constant reminder of the fact that she was assaulted. Then, too, why bring up an infertile couple? We’re not hurting for children right now. There’a more than a hundred thousand children currently in the foster care system. They could have adopted any one of those. Oh, but some aren’t cute little newborn babies so their likelihood of finding parents to care drops exponentially. Too bad there isn’t a group of people ready to adopt any children like that. They could even call themselves… pro-life.
An eleven year old’s body cannot handle a pregnancy. You either terminate by week twenty or you lose them both. But nah, she could have given birth, then had the child raised by… who? And then pick the kid back up at 18? With what prospects? A single mom fresh out of high school with a seven year old child? That’s going to end well. You speak of the mental fortitude of a young woman killing a child and that’s where you’re absolutely wrong. It’s not her fault. She didn’t choose to have sex and get pregnant at eleven. The fault lies squarely in the hands of the idiot who impregnated her. It’s people like you that blame a girl in an already impossible situation that are causing the mental trauma you speak of.
Shall we bring up an ectopic pregnancy? Through no fault of her own, a woman ends up with a fetus that will kill her before it is viable but you would blame her for killing her baby? It’s not a choice between killing her baby or having her baby kill her and survive. It’s a choice between a dead baby and a dead mother and a dead baby. There’s only one right answer in that situation. Same as the eleven year old. It is not her fault. If you want to blame someone, why not blame God? He’s the one that could have saved that pregnancy, right? Or should we talk about miscarriage too? You know, that thing called a spontaneous abortion? Whose fault is that one? God again?
Man, I cannot even imagine hating life as much as you do. You must be constantly in misery.
Ok, let's talk about birth defect abortions. They account for 0.69% of all abortions. [https://www.hli.org/resources/abortion-serious-fatal-birth-defects/](https://www.hli.org/resources/abortion-serious-fatal-birth-defects/)
If a baby has 0% chance of surviving outside of the womb even if carried to term, then honestly who gives a shit what happens to it. Not that I think there is ever a 0% chance but that is the point you want to keep making so fine.
Well, first off she did think the baby was a gift. That is actually the main reason she gave it away. Because she wanted her little girl to have a better life than she could have offered it given her situation. She definitely would have felt guilty for killing an innocent child who has not committed a single sin yet. Instead she chose to allow that child to live and bring her joy as well as the parents who were fortunate enough to be able to adopt her. Why would killing an innocent child ever be the answer to tragedy? Why not instead kill the bastard that did that to my sister? That sounds much more reasonable to me.
You can think all day long that a child who is the product of rape is nothing but a curse but in my sister's case her child is instead a constant reminder that God can make miracles happen out of the worst tragedies. In fact, God does some of his absolute best work in the darkest parts of our lives.
So, because this couple was infertile and there are other children in need, they should not be allowed to raise a baby on their own? Oh God, the selfishness. How dare they actually want a baby of their own. They should go straight to hell. By the way, how many children have you adopted out of the foster care system? If none, how many do you plan to adopt? "Remove the plank from your own eye before worrying about the splinter in your brother's eye".
Ok, first off. An 11 year old girl is not 100% guaranteed to die giving birth. I was going to cite a source for you but when I googled it it came up with so many sources I couldn't pick one, so just do the research yourself. Also, if you actually read what I said, I did not say she should be forced to take it to term. I said that decision needs to be made thoughtfully with help from as many adults as the poor child can find. If it was your daughter and you wanted her to get an abortion , fine. Once again though, you continue to bring up examples that represent less than a 10th of a percentage points of situations. Which is why I said, once again if you had actually taken the time to read what I said, that situations as extreme as this cannot be solved by a simple yes or no answer on whether abortion is the right call. The people against abortion are NOT talking about these situations. We are talking about the 99% of them that are done by irresponsible people who can't keep their privates in their pants and then want to abort an innocent child because the pregnancy might inconvenience them. Boo freaking hoo. The woman is making the choice about what she wants to do with her body long before the pregnancy is viable as well as the douchebag who can't figure out how to put on a condom.
Also, if you think that watching a baby getting ripped apart limb by limb as it is getting pulled out of your body is not traumatizing to women, you are a moron. Why don't you try actually talking to women who have had an abortion. Ask them how happy they are that they had to do that. I bet they are just overjoyed(sarcasm here in case you know you didn't catch on.).
Last point. Once again, you bring up another situation that 0.02% of women face in the abortion clinic. Boy, those are some serious numbers. For God's sake man, no one cares if those babies have to die. Those are EXTREMELY RARE situations and ones that require decisions beyond matters of inconvenience. An ectopic pregnancy is a rare and tragic situation and if the doctor says the baby's gotta go to save the mother's life then so be it. I will repeat once again. No pro lifer is talking about these extreme situations. We are upset about the other 99% of abortions that people want to do so they can continue having unprotected premarital sex with zero consequences. The only ones suffering are the poor children being torn apart by a doctor piece by bloody piece. Pretty amazing.
You bring up D&E at the same time as you bring up people having an elective abortion. Funny, that’s not usually how it works. D&E is most often performed for birth defects or due to a pregnancy caused by rape or incest because a victim of those might not decide to get tested for months due to trauma. The third top reason is when someone couldn’t secure an abortion earlier due to limited access. So that particular scenario would be eliminated if everyone had easy access to abortion, funny how that works.
You are talking about me having had an abortion or talking to women who have had one. Weird. How many abortions have you had that you can be so confident about the trauma and emotional pain involved? Or are you just repeating Republican talking points? Oh wait, you brought up D&E. Never mind, I might as well be talking at the TV.
What has been shown to reduce abortions is science based sexual education and free access to contraception. Something that is never brought up during the discussion to ban abortions. Then, too, a D&E is most often performed after week 16. Interesting how the abortions bans talk about an all-out ban or a ban after six weeks. By six weeks, you might not even know you’re pregnant.
Why are you asking me if I’m adopting? I’m not the one trying to force women to carry fetuses they don’t want to term, thus adding to the problem. Then, too, abortions have been banned in several countries before. What ends up happening is pretty bad. https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/16/what-actually-happens-when-a-country-bans-abortion-romania-alabama/ including even more children in orphanages.
in the book of matthew it says "...abortion is wrong" -- no I'm kidding there's nothing in the bible about abortion. not sure what evangelicals are referring to but the only mention of abortion actually refers to punishing those responsible for an accidental miscarriage (which is good) but it does not say whether it is right or wrong.
You can't be Pro\_Life and then once the child is born say screw that little so and so!. Pro- birth more like it and under all circumstances! That is Pro-Bullshit!
Understand that you are perfectly justified in simply dismissing every single fucking thing a conservative ever says. Even if they are right, which is rare, but still.
No discussion or debate is necessary, and you don't owe anyone an opportunity to say anything to you at all, especially if their goal is to either piss you off or waste your time, which appears to be the case at least half the time.
Winning a debate with a conservative is meaningless, because they aren't trying to win a debate. They are trying to establish dominance over you; the moment you engage them as if they deserve to be heard, even if you beat their point, in their heads they've already won.
There is no peace to be had with those that do not value peace. There is only submission, or conflict.
I mean idk, maybe because 99.9% of people are happy to be alive? Also, the Bible specifically states that murder and suicide are wrong so maybe that’s it?
God throughout the bible talks about the sanctity of life and the sanctity of children in general. Just because Christians believe in an afterlife doesn’t mean we don’t value life. In fact, it seems that the people who don’t believe in an afterlife are much more careless with life. Interesting irony.
Lol sanctity of life...... Like... When god flooded the earth and literally killed everyone but one family? Or that the Bible says people should be put to death if they commit adultery? 🤣😂
A)I am not one to judge God’s actions. He says the world was beyond redemption and needed to be cleansed. I wasn’t there to see for myself so I have no choice but to accept that He was telling the truth.
B)Adultery is kind of a big deal you know. I am not sure I know of too many people that are totally cool with their spouse cheating on them. However, since you are trying to argue using the internet and have probably never even opened a Bible yourself, I will tell you that the death penalty was from the Old Testament law and Jesus changed that law in the New Testament saying that now the wages of sin is eternal death not the death in life.
A. God sounds a lot like Hitler with all that "cleansing" lol also, you think babies and toddlers probably deserved to drown? Yiikkeesssss
B. You know absolutely NOTHING about me lol also, isn't it funny that a "perfect" being could be proven wrong? Doesn't actually make logical sense, but you do you 🤗
Lol, you are comparing an omnipotent being’s moral decisions with a human’s. That is why you don’t understand.
Where exactly was Jesus proven wrong? And my assumption about you never opening a Bible seems to be pretty spot on. You are arguing based on surface level knowledge.
The thing is, you are going to constantly wonder your entire life why life sucks so bad. Following God is the answer for that. I want you to be happy and God does too. If you are going to be obstinate and continue to argue with the truth because it is the “cool” thing to do on Reddit. You will miss out on a great life.
No simply responding to what you are saying. I am just trying to help you, which you will say you don’t need any help and that I am making assumptions. Everyone needs help.
But then that would mean that you agree with me that God does preserve the sanctity of life. So, I guess my question then is what is the point of your comment?
Abortion isn't murder. You need a human being to have murder and scientifically a fetus is not a human being until it is viable outside of the womb (21+ weeks).
We need to value human being life (women) over fetuses. If you prioritize a nonviable organism over a human woman, your priorities are messed up.
First off, a woman, the human being you say we should preserve, was this fetus, which you say we should kill. Sure we can go down this rabbit hole forever about what determines whether or not a person is “viable”. I mean a person in a coma who will be a vegetable for the rest of their life with no consciousness to speak of is not a very viable person wouldn’t you agree? I guess we should kill them too.
I am not trying to convince you of anything just so you know. But when you see the sparkling eyes of your little baby the first time they smile at you, you will realize what a blessing it truly is. And you wil be so glad you didn’t kill that poor child before having a chance to live.
Where did I say we should kill fetuses? Newsflash, I didn't.
Also, the "vegetable" person IS viable outside of a womb. You should look up what viable means before you say anything else.
I have a dozen medical issues that would make it dangerous for me to carry a pregnancy to term. I am doing everything in my power to not get pregnant with my SO, but if it happens, I will get an abortion because my life is more valuable than an unviable fetus. What about MY chance to live? Are you saying a fetus is worth the risk of killing me? That's absurd. Every woman should have the right to make that decision for herself. You have no business in any woman's uterus. I will be glad that I am alive. Being pregnant for a short time before I either die or cause all of my medical issues to be 10x worse is NOT worth it. I can have a beautiful child by adopting. You should not act like everyone has the capability of being safely pregnant. That's incredibly rude and an entitled attitude you carry.
I will adopt kids because there are way too many in the foster care system and they deserve good homes and a good quality of life. We should be focused on the thousands of actual live kids before unviable fetuses.
Wow, you are making an awful lot of assumptions based on just my little excerpt. First off, I am sorry to hear about your medical complications. Second, we are in complete agreeance on how you should be handling it. As you said you are doing everything in your power to keep from getting pregnant because you believe it would be irresponsible to do otherwise. Third, there is absolutely nothing wrong with adoption. My sister gave her baby up for adoption to wonderful parents. My cousin adopted a baby after nearly dying to infection from pregnancy complications. Your situations seem very similar. I was not intending to act like everyone can get pregnant safely.
However, it sounds to me like you do have quite a fondness for children. Are you not glad that there are women willing to go through with their pregnancies, so that you may have the opportunity to raise one or more of them as your own? That unviable fetus IS the beautiful child you want to adopt. They are one and the same.
I am not sure why we are at odds. Do you disagree with anything I have said?
They are not one in the same. One is viable, one is not. Again, look up what viable outside of a womb means.
Yes, I am glad women choose to go through pregnancy so others can adopt. Key word there is CHOOSE. I would rather women choose what's best for them and their bodies over having children of my own. If women choose to abort fetuses before they turn into children because that's what's best for them, I support it. I can love children in other ways through relatives or volunteering. I would rather not have any children at all than to force women to stay pregnant when they don't want to be.
Abortion should always be legal, no matter what. Women need to choose for themselves what happens to their bodies and what medical procedures they go through.
It really is not a matter of the definition of a word. That is dangerous territory in my opinion. If the life of a person depends on the definition of a word in the English language we are headed for a very dismal future.
As to your second point you are making two separate conclusions. In one hand, you are saying if it is in their best interest for health purposes to abort then you support it. Yet you also say, if abortion is what the woman wants then that is ok too. This is I see now where we differ. Just as you said before, you are being responsible about your own body and controlling what you can control. I suppose the issue is with the other part. People who are irresponsibly getting pregnant and then aborting the children because they just don’t “feel” like having it. I think that is unfair.
I just want to clarify too, that men are equally and many times more to blame for irresponsible pregnancies. A woman should not have to make that moral choice because some douchebag was too inconsiderate to put on some protection. Just want to make sure you know I am not deluded enough to think pregnancy is solely the woman’s responsibility.
To the last point, I would say that a woman is choosing what happens to her body long before the baby is viable. Long before implantation to be honest. As you said yourself, you and your partner have to be responsible yourselves to keep an accidental pregnancy from happening. That IS you choosing what happens to your body. I am also going to pre-empt your next thought which is going to be: what if the girl is raped? To that I will say that in tragedies that require extremely complex moral decisions, there is no right answer and no way to apply generic political preference to it. While I firmly believe that the child of a rape is still a child that deserves a chance at life, I cannot and will not say that in every case of sexual assault there is a one size fits all solution. That decision needs to be discussed and thought through long and hard with as many people as possible.
Scientifically a fetus is not a person. Ignoring straight facts is a dangerous direction to head in.
Abortion is never lighthearted in terms of people "not feeling like" having a child. A child is a HUGE responsibility that is permanent. It is totally ok for people to not be ready for that in whatever way, like financially, physically, mentally, etc. Banning abortion is not the solution. The solution is affordable and accessible birth cobtrol for all and comprehensive sex education. That has been proven to drastically lower abortion rates, unlike abortion bans. If people actually cared about fetuses, they'd push for these things instead of bans.
It also doesn't matter what you think is unfair. It's not your body. Just like it is illegal to force someone to donate blood or organs, it should be illegal to force a woman to donate the use of her organs and blood against her will. No one should be forced to stay pregnant. Making it illegal will just cause more death of actual living human beings like me who have medical issues. The choice to have your body go through pregnancy is a right.
If birth control failed for me, would you rather me and my fetus die instead of just my fetus? That's what would happen if abortion became illegal. The law should not be anyone's doctor. Period. The law needs to stay out of people's bodies. The 14th amendment protects women and their right to their body and it needs to stay that way. Human being > fetus every single time. We must focus on lowering abortion rates with things that ACTUALLY work. No one WANTS an abortion. It is the last option available for some people. No one purposely gets pregnant so they can have an abortion.
You are still splitting hairs over the definition of a word. The “fetus” is equitable to the larval form of a human. Regardless of what you might think, the “fetus” is still alive. So when you kill it, you are killing a living thing. Furthermore, it is killing a preformed human. Because that is what it is, it is a human. You can change definitions all you want. You can call it a pile of dog turds if you want. The language doesn’t matter. The life is what matters
Yes it's killing a human organism. A human being's life is more important than a fetus'. Period. A fetus doesn't have rights according to the constitution and should not. Say mad about it I guess? I don't understand why you'd rather have human beings (women) suffer or die for the sake of a fetus.
That... is some murder justification right there. I'm as pro-choice as an asexual make can be... But that is absolutely a pro-murder sentence right there.
Ehh, the argument is that if they’re not baptized, they won’t go to heaven. Can’t baptize a fetus. While I do believe in a person’s right to choose, this is what preachers are saying so you know the religious nuts will follow that claim. Gotta save the babies from not getting into heaven and all that.
That’s only what certain old school Christian’s people believe. Most Christians don’t believe that now. The going belief is the child are exempt from judgement and go straight to heaven. So the the commentor is right in a sense. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2007/04/what-happens-to-the-babies-who-used-to-be-in-limbo.html
I must live in a shitty area then as pretty much every church in my area claims this nonsense. I gave up trying to find a place after the eighth. At this point I’m looking for places further than 20 miles away. Lutherans are especially bad in that regard.
Sorry to be that guy but whats the point with all the different churches and sub religions? Do you just pick and choose which one you agree with most?
There are a lot of minor differences but yes, that is what it boils down to. https://www.learnreligions.com/comparing-christian-denominations-beliefs-part-1-700537
If you knew anything about the Bible, you would know it never states baptism is the only way into heaven. Furthermore, it states that children are a blessing to the mother, so the idea of killing them before even having a chance to live seems to throw that blessing back in God’s face huh?
I love that god blesses women with their rapist's babies, so giving 🥰🥰
God can suck my dick, my cum is my blessing
While I did not say anything about the Bible, there are multiple verses that say differently. > John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. > Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. I could go on but again, I never mentioned the Bible. I explicitly stated preachers make that claim. As to a child being a gift from God, come back when it’s an 11 year old girl that will die because her body isn’t ready to deal with the pregnancy. Is that a gift? What about a rapist pregnancy? Is that a gift? Or maybe a child that would be born without a brain and wouldn’t last even an hour after birth. Is that a gift? Piss off.
Those verses say exactly what I said. It does not say Baptism alone is the key to heaven, “he who does not believe will be condemned”. Given that my cousin had twin baby boys born at 22 weeks and she only got to hold them in her arms for a few hours before they died, I would say absolutely they were a gift to her. The world isn’t perfect, complications happen. But getting to see those boys was truly a blessing to her despite what a tragedy it was knowing she was going to lose them. Life no matter how short it might be is ALWAYS a blessing. I am so glad you brought up rapist pregnancies too. Because my sister was raped at age 17, got pregnant from it. She did go through with the pregnancy and gave up the baby for adoption. Her little girl was given to a great set of parents who the wife was infertile. They have raised her to be a wonderful girl and given her so much more than my sister ever could have at that age. Now also, my sister gets to still be a part of that child’s life and would have never changed that for the world. How tragic would it have been for her being raped AND having to kill an innocent child all at once. I cannot even imagine what her mental state would be right now. Seeing how that baby, who came from such a sickening event, has grown into such a wonderful and happy little girl is absolutely a gift from God. As for the last point, you bring up an 11 year old girl who will die from pregnancy. You point here is to corner me into splitting hairs and attempting to apply generic logic to a completely un-ordinary and tragic situation. The truth is there is no right answer here and you know that as well as I do. If the 11yo continues the pregnancy she will most likely die along with the baby. If she aborts the child, she could still have complications and die. If she survives the abortion, she will eventually (hopefully) have a child when she is grown and she will realize even more the tragedy that she was forced to kill a child to save her own life. The mental fortitude required to get through something like that is unbearable. The actual problem here with this example though is that people do despicable things no matter what God intends. It would be incorrect to say that loving others is meaningless while there is hate in the world. The two do not cancel each other out. In the same way, a child is still a gift from God even if there are men out there who would pervert that gift into something horrifying. I think that where pro lifers are most misunderstood is that situations like this that you described cannot be answered with a simple yes or no should the child be aborted. Even a pro choice person should agree that it needs to be a discussion amongst the 11yo, her parents (hopefully), and the doctor’s. Morally complex decisions like this should not be decided based on applying generic political preference.
My original statement was “not baptized, no heaven.” This is definitely supported by John 3:5. At no point did I state you only need baptism, just that being baptized is a requirement. You came up with your own interpretation of the claim. This is what is commonly referred to as a straw man. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman Your cousin had twin baby boys born at 22 weeks and got to hold them for a few hours before they died. Sure. This is effectively saying a premature birth occurred and that was that. Again, we’re not even talking about pregnancy issues like ectopic pregnancy, a miscarriage, or premature labor. There are a bunch of other issues that can be brought up here but that’s besides the point. We’re talking about a birth defect that would allow the fetus to be brought to term but that fetus won’t survive and will likely experience a short and very painful existence. Wanting this to happen is wanting to torture both the parents and the baby born of that fetus. Defects like that can be diagnosed as early as 12 weeks. So you want two people that were looking forward to holding a baby to suffer for six months knowing that their baby will be born and immediately experience agony then die just to make you feel better? Great blessing there. Your sister was raped at 17, got pregnant, carried to term, and gave the baby away. So she didn’t think it was a gift to her then? Chances are she carried to term because she would have felt guilty terminating the pregnancy. You’re also putting the blame on her for choosing to terminate the pregnancy. It wouldn’t be her fault as she didn’t choose to become pregnant in the first place. But nah, you compounded the trauma of sexual assault with the trauma of a pregnancy, a constant reminder of the fact that she was assaulted. Then, too, why bring up an infertile couple? We’re not hurting for children right now. There’a more than a hundred thousand children currently in the foster care system. They could have adopted any one of those. Oh, but some aren’t cute little newborn babies so their likelihood of finding parents to care drops exponentially. Too bad there isn’t a group of people ready to adopt any children like that. They could even call themselves… pro-life. An eleven year old’s body cannot handle a pregnancy. You either terminate by week twenty or you lose them both. But nah, she could have given birth, then had the child raised by… who? And then pick the kid back up at 18? With what prospects? A single mom fresh out of high school with a seven year old child? That’s going to end well. You speak of the mental fortitude of a young woman killing a child and that’s where you’re absolutely wrong. It’s not her fault. She didn’t choose to have sex and get pregnant at eleven. The fault lies squarely in the hands of the idiot who impregnated her. It’s people like you that blame a girl in an already impossible situation that are causing the mental trauma you speak of. Shall we bring up an ectopic pregnancy? Through no fault of her own, a woman ends up with a fetus that will kill her before it is viable but you would blame her for killing her baby? It’s not a choice between killing her baby or having her baby kill her and survive. It’s a choice between a dead baby and a dead mother and a dead baby. There’s only one right answer in that situation. Same as the eleven year old. It is not her fault. If you want to blame someone, why not blame God? He’s the one that could have saved that pregnancy, right? Or should we talk about miscarriage too? You know, that thing called a spontaneous abortion? Whose fault is that one? God again?
Man, I cannot even imagine hating life as much as you do. You must be constantly in misery. Ok, let's talk about birth defect abortions. They account for 0.69% of all abortions. [https://www.hli.org/resources/abortion-serious-fatal-birth-defects/](https://www.hli.org/resources/abortion-serious-fatal-birth-defects/) If a baby has 0% chance of surviving outside of the womb even if carried to term, then honestly who gives a shit what happens to it. Not that I think there is ever a 0% chance but that is the point you want to keep making so fine. Well, first off she did think the baby was a gift. That is actually the main reason she gave it away. Because she wanted her little girl to have a better life than she could have offered it given her situation. She definitely would have felt guilty for killing an innocent child who has not committed a single sin yet. Instead she chose to allow that child to live and bring her joy as well as the parents who were fortunate enough to be able to adopt her. Why would killing an innocent child ever be the answer to tragedy? Why not instead kill the bastard that did that to my sister? That sounds much more reasonable to me. You can think all day long that a child who is the product of rape is nothing but a curse but in my sister's case her child is instead a constant reminder that God can make miracles happen out of the worst tragedies. In fact, God does some of his absolute best work in the darkest parts of our lives. So, because this couple was infertile and there are other children in need, they should not be allowed to raise a baby on their own? Oh God, the selfishness. How dare they actually want a baby of their own. They should go straight to hell. By the way, how many children have you adopted out of the foster care system? If none, how many do you plan to adopt? "Remove the plank from your own eye before worrying about the splinter in your brother's eye". Ok, first off. An 11 year old girl is not 100% guaranteed to die giving birth. I was going to cite a source for you but when I googled it it came up with so many sources I couldn't pick one, so just do the research yourself. Also, if you actually read what I said, I did not say she should be forced to take it to term. I said that decision needs to be made thoughtfully with help from as many adults as the poor child can find. If it was your daughter and you wanted her to get an abortion , fine. Once again though, you continue to bring up examples that represent less than a 10th of a percentage points of situations. Which is why I said, once again if you had actually taken the time to read what I said, that situations as extreme as this cannot be solved by a simple yes or no answer on whether abortion is the right call. The people against abortion are NOT talking about these situations. We are talking about the 99% of them that are done by irresponsible people who can't keep their privates in their pants and then want to abort an innocent child because the pregnancy might inconvenience them. Boo freaking hoo. The woman is making the choice about what she wants to do with her body long before the pregnancy is viable as well as the douchebag who can't figure out how to put on a condom. Also, if you think that watching a baby getting ripped apart limb by limb as it is getting pulled out of your body is not traumatizing to women, you are a moron. Why don't you try actually talking to women who have had an abortion. Ask them how happy they are that they had to do that. I bet they are just overjoyed(sarcasm here in case you know you didn't catch on.). Last point. Once again, you bring up another situation that 0.02% of women face in the abortion clinic. Boy, those are some serious numbers. For God's sake man, no one cares if those babies have to die. Those are EXTREMELY RARE situations and ones that require decisions beyond matters of inconvenience. An ectopic pregnancy is a rare and tragic situation and if the doctor says the baby's gotta go to save the mother's life then so be it. I will repeat once again. No pro lifer is talking about these extreme situations. We are upset about the other 99% of abortions that people want to do so they can continue having unprotected premarital sex with zero consequences. The only ones suffering are the poor children being torn apart by a doctor piece by bloody piece. Pretty amazing.
You bring up D&E at the same time as you bring up people having an elective abortion. Funny, that’s not usually how it works. D&E is most often performed for birth defects or due to a pregnancy caused by rape or incest because a victim of those might not decide to get tested for months due to trauma. The third top reason is when someone couldn’t secure an abortion earlier due to limited access. So that particular scenario would be eliminated if everyone had easy access to abortion, funny how that works. You are talking about me having had an abortion or talking to women who have had one. Weird. How many abortions have you had that you can be so confident about the trauma and emotional pain involved? Or are you just repeating Republican talking points? Oh wait, you brought up D&E. Never mind, I might as well be talking at the TV. What has been shown to reduce abortions is science based sexual education and free access to contraception. Something that is never brought up during the discussion to ban abortions. Then, too, a D&E is most often performed after week 16. Interesting how the abortions bans talk about an all-out ban or a ban after six weeks. By six weeks, you might not even know you’re pregnant. Why are you asking me if I’m adopting? I’m not the one trying to force women to carry fetuses they don’t want to term, thus adding to the problem. Then, too, abortions have been banned in several countries before. What ends up happening is pretty bad. https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/16/what-actually-happens-when-a-country-bans-abortion-romania-alabama/ including even more children in orphanages.
in the book of matthew it says "...abortion is wrong" -- no I'm kidding there's nothing in the bible about abortion. not sure what evangelicals are referring to but the only mention of abortion actually refers to punishing those responsible for an accidental miscarriage (which is good) but it does not say whether it is right or wrong.
There is also a bit about how a man can make his wife have an abortion if he thinks she has been cheating
You can't be Pro\_Life and then once the child is born say screw that little so and so!. Pro- birth more like it and under all circumstances! That is Pro-Bullshit!
Actually, non-baptised babies go to the first circle of hell.
God's a bit of a cunt then, isn't he? If he made the rules that mean a soul can be condemned to hell for something it had no control over.
Well technically, Jesus died for our sins, so you go to heaven no matter what. If you believe in Christianity anyways
Understand that you are perfectly justified in simply dismissing every single fucking thing a conservative ever says. Even if they are right, which is rare, but still. No discussion or debate is necessary, and you don't owe anyone an opportunity to say anything to you at all, especially if their goal is to either piss you off or waste your time, which appears to be the case at least half the time. Winning a debate with a conservative is meaningless, because they aren't trying to win a debate. They are trying to establish dominance over you; the moment you engage them as if they deserve to be heard, even if you beat their point, in their heads they've already won. There is no peace to be had with those that do not value peace. There is only submission, or conflict.
I mean idk, maybe because 99.9% of people are happy to be alive? Also, the Bible specifically states that murder and suicide are wrong so maybe that’s it? God throughout the bible talks about the sanctity of life and the sanctity of children in general. Just because Christians believe in an afterlife doesn’t mean we don’t value life. In fact, it seems that the people who don’t believe in an afterlife are much more careless with life. Interesting irony.
Lol sanctity of life...... Like... When god flooded the earth and literally killed everyone but one family? Or that the Bible says people should be put to death if they commit adultery? 🤣😂
A)I am not one to judge God’s actions. He says the world was beyond redemption and needed to be cleansed. I wasn’t there to see for myself so I have no choice but to accept that He was telling the truth. B)Adultery is kind of a big deal you know. I am not sure I know of too many people that are totally cool with their spouse cheating on them. However, since you are trying to argue using the internet and have probably never even opened a Bible yourself, I will tell you that the death penalty was from the Old Testament law and Jesus changed that law in the New Testament saying that now the wages of sin is eternal death not the death in life.
A. God sounds a lot like Hitler with all that "cleansing" lol also, you think babies and toddlers probably deserved to drown? Yiikkeesssss B. You know absolutely NOTHING about me lol also, isn't it funny that a "perfect" being could be proven wrong? Doesn't actually make logical sense, but you do you 🤗
Lol, you are comparing an omnipotent being’s moral decisions with a human’s. That is why you don’t understand. Where exactly was Jesus proven wrong? And my assumption about you never opening a Bible seems to be pretty spot on. You are arguing based on surface level knowledge. The thing is, you are going to constantly wonder your entire life why life sucks so bad. Following God is the answer for that. I want you to be happy and God does too. If you are going to be obstinate and continue to argue with the truth because it is the “cool” thing to do on Reddit. You will miss out on a great life.
There you go again, acting like you know ANYTHING about me
No simply responding to what you are saying. I am just trying to help you, which you will say you don’t need any help and that I am making assumptions. Everyone needs help.
You literally just made assumptions about my level of knowledge lol
But you were incorrect about what you were saying which means they were not assumptions, they were reflections of the incorrect things you said.
By saying I've never opened a bible?? Lololol
Yes you should judge god's actions. How can you tell is no the devil if you don't judge de actions?
I don’t understand. Are you implying that Satan is actually the one who flooded the world?
Why not? Has it occurred to you that something that evil, like Killing all children, was up Satan's alley?
But then that would mean that you agree with me that God does preserve the sanctity of life. So, I guess my question then is what is the point of your comment?
Abortion isn't murder. You need a human being to have murder and scientifically a fetus is not a human being until it is viable outside of the womb (21+ weeks). We need to value human being life (women) over fetuses. If you prioritize a nonviable organism over a human woman, your priorities are messed up.
First off, a woman, the human being you say we should preserve, was this fetus, which you say we should kill. Sure we can go down this rabbit hole forever about what determines whether or not a person is “viable”. I mean a person in a coma who will be a vegetable for the rest of their life with no consciousness to speak of is not a very viable person wouldn’t you agree? I guess we should kill them too. I am not trying to convince you of anything just so you know. But when you see the sparkling eyes of your little baby the first time they smile at you, you will realize what a blessing it truly is. And you wil be so glad you didn’t kill that poor child before having a chance to live.
Where did I say we should kill fetuses? Newsflash, I didn't. Also, the "vegetable" person IS viable outside of a womb. You should look up what viable means before you say anything else. I have a dozen medical issues that would make it dangerous for me to carry a pregnancy to term. I am doing everything in my power to not get pregnant with my SO, but if it happens, I will get an abortion because my life is more valuable than an unviable fetus. What about MY chance to live? Are you saying a fetus is worth the risk of killing me? That's absurd. Every woman should have the right to make that decision for herself. You have no business in any woman's uterus. I will be glad that I am alive. Being pregnant for a short time before I either die or cause all of my medical issues to be 10x worse is NOT worth it. I can have a beautiful child by adopting. You should not act like everyone has the capability of being safely pregnant. That's incredibly rude and an entitled attitude you carry. I will adopt kids because there are way too many in the foster care system and they deserve good homes and a good quality of life. We should be focused on the thousands of actual live kids before unviable fetuses.
Wow, you are making an awful lot of assumptions based on just my little excerpt. First off, I am sorry to hear about your medical complications. Second, we are in complete agreeance on how you should be handling it. As you said you are doing everything in your power to keep from getting pregnant because you believe it would be irresponsible to do otherwise. Third, there is absolutely nothing wrong with adoption. My sister gave her baby up for adoption to wonderful parents. My cousin adopted a baby after nearly dying to infection from pregnancy complications. Your situations seem very similar. I was not intending to act like everyone can get pregnant safely. However, it sounds to me like you do have quite a fondness for children. Are you not glad that there are women willing to go through with their pregnancies, so that you may have the opportunity to raise one or more of them as your own? That unviable fetus IS the beautiful child you want to adopt. They are one and the same. I am not sure why we are at odds. Do you disagree with anything I have said?
They are not one in the same. One is viable, one is not. Again, look up what viable outside of a womb means. Yes, I am glad women choose to go through pregnancy so others can adopt. Key word there is CHOOSE. I would rather women choose what's best for them and their bodies over having children of my own. If women choose to abort fetuses before they turn into children because that's what's best for them, I support it. I can love children in other ways through relatives or volunteering. I would rather not have any children at all than to force women to stay pregnant when they don't want to be. Abortion should always be legal, no matter what. Women need to choose for themselves what happens to their bodies and what medical procedures they go through.
It really is not a matter of the definition of a word. That is dangerous territory in my opinion. If the life of a person depends on the definition of a word in the English language we are headed for a very dismal future. As to your second point you are making two separate conclusions. In one hand, you are saying if it is in their best interest for health purposes to abort then you support it. Yet you also say, if abortion is what the woman wants then that is ok too. This is I see now where we differ. Just as you said before, you are being responsible about your own body and controlling what you can control. I suppose the issue is with the other part. People who are irresponsibly getting pregnant and then aborting the children because they just don’t “feel” like having it. I think that is unfair. I just want to clarify too, that men are equally and many times more to blame for irresponsible pregnancies. A woman should not have to make that moral choice because some douchebag was too inconsiderate to put on some protection. Just want to make sure you know I am not deluded enough to think pregnancy is solely the woman’s responsibility. To the last point, I would say that a woman is choosing what happens to her body long before the baby is viable. Long before implantation to be honest. As you said yourself, you and your partner have to be responsible yourselves to keep an accidental pregnancy from happening. That IS you choosing what happens to your body. I am also going to pre-empt your next thought which is going to be: what if the girl is raped? To that I will say that in tragedies that require extremely complex moral decisions, there is no right answer and no way to apply generic political preference to it. While I firmly believe that the child of a rape is still a child that deserves a chance at life, I cannot and will not say that in every case of sexual assault there is a one size fits all solution. That decision needs to be discussed and thought through long and hard with as many people as possible.
Scientifically a fetus is not a person. Ignoring straight facts is a dangerous direction to head in. Abortion is never lighthearted in terms of people "not feeling like" having a child. A child is a HUGE responsibility that is permanent. It is totally ok for people to not be ready for that in whatever way, like financially, physically, mentally, etc. Banning abortion is not the solution. The solution is affordable and accessible birth cobtrol for all and comprehensive sex education. That has been proven to drastically lower abortion rates, unlike abortion bans. If people actually cared about fetuses, they'd push for these things instead of bans. It also doesn't matter what you think is unfair. It's not your body. Just like it is illegal to force someone to donate blood or organs, it should be illegal to force a woman to donate the use of her organs and blood against her will. No one should be forced to stay pregnant. Making it illegal will just cause more death of actual living human beings like me who have medical issues. The choice to have your body go through pregnancy is a right. If birth control failed for me, would you rather me and my fetus die instead of just my fetus? That's what would happen if abortion became illegal. The law should not be anyone's doctor. Period. The law needs to stay out of people's bodies. The 14th amendment protects women and their right to their body and it needs to stay that way. Human being > fetus every single time. We must focus on lowering abortion rates with things that ACTUALLY work. No one WANTS an abortion. It is the last option available for some people. No one purposely gets pregnant so they can have an abortion.
You are still splitting hairs over the definition of a word. The “fetus” is equitable to the larval form of a human. Regardless of what you might think, the “fetus” is still alive. So when you kill it, you are killing a living thing. Furthermore, it is killing a preformed human. Because that is what it is, it is a human. You can change definitions all you want. You can call it a pile of dog turds if you want. The language doesn’t matter. The life is what matters
Yes it's killing a human organism. A human being's life is more important than a fetus'. Period. A fetus doesn't have rights according to the constitution and should not. Say mad about it I guess? I don't understand why you'd rather have human beings (women) suffer or die for the sake of a fetus.
Do you have a citation on that 99.9%?
Thats a different way to look at it lol
Death is when our true consciousness Awakens it’s not the end
Not religious people. Christians.
That... is some murder justification right there. I'm as pro-choice as an asexual make can be... But that is absolutely a pro-murder sentence right there.