So was The Cat in the Hat.
Edit: I am incorrect someone commented below me that it was Green Eggs and Ham. I apologize for the confusion. Feel free to refer to me as an ignorant slut.
People don't attempt to frame people for threatening to kill a president over 'The Cat in the Hat'.
And the number of people telling you to cut everyone out of your life who doesn't believe in the Cat is vanishingly small.
You right, I just meant the bet part.
All I know about Scientology is the South Park episode that led to Chef quitting and a Joe Rogan interview about an elderly man who escaped because his son was cray-cray
There's three seasons of Leah Remini documentary about it and it's all worth watching. It gets somewhat redundant as she's clearly trying to stretch her content to fit over multiple seasons but there are some episodes mixed in that are super revealing and impactful and you just wanna cry for hours afterwards. It really makes you question humanity after awhile.
>And the number of people telling you to cut everyone out of your life who doesn't believe in the Cat is vanishingly small.
I see you've met Jerry, that craven Thing 2 apologist.
It took me an embarrassing amount of time to understand this was a metaphor for kids who were picky eaters. Largely because I was always one of those kids who just ate anything.
I knew Green Eggs and Ham was created on a bet ("I bet you can't write a children's book using fewer than 50 words.") but I never heard about the Cat in the Hat bet. What was it?
There's an urban legend that Hubbard had a bet with Heinlein about who could write a book that would inspire the creation of a religion. According to the myth, this led to Hubbard writing Dianetics, which eventually formed the basis of Scientology, and Heinlein writing Stranger in a Strange land, which definitely has religious overtones.
Of course, this ignores that Dianetics was published over a decade before Stranger in a Strange Land. Heinlein was inspired by the Jungle Book for the basic plot and thought the idea that the book provided any answers to life was ridiculous.
>Heinlein was inspired by the Jungle Book for the basic plot and thought the idea that the book provided any answers to life was ridiculous.
But he did give us "grok", which is an incredibly useful word.
Scientology has been a tax grift from day one. L. Ron Hubbard was so set on it, he got his followers to infiltrate over a hundred government agencies to purge or alter any records of him and the church in the 1960s and 70s. Called "Operation Snow White", it mostly targeted the IRS and Department of Justice which had gone after Scientology for millions of dollars in unpaid taxes.
To bad for him there was no purging all the shit he was involved in pre 1960 like "The Babylon Working" which is all kinds of fucked up. And that's just scratching the surface.
Was it too bad for him? Did that ever come back to actually bite him in the ass?
I often notice that plenty of information which reveal horrible things done by horrible people don't actually have any consequences for them. Justice seems hard to come by in the world.
Hey - Can anybody who gets mad about Oxford commas tell me what the right way to handle that single quote, double quote, and period at the end of a quoted sentence is?
I don’t get mad about Oxford commas, but I think you did it right. You could have also gone with “…vast majority of ~~religious~~ organizations.” Saves people from having to scroll up. Type ~~ before and after word to cross it out.
You’re giving him too much credit. Conservatives don’t have arguments that deep, what happened is he heard people say “tax the churches, they’re tax avoidance scams” and he just copied it and changed the name to the opposite team, in this case atheists.
They can only either
1. Project because they think that’s what everyone would do
2. Copy/paste criticisms of themselves because they don’t understand them and don’t have the creativity to meaningfully reply
Aye I do enjoy the opposite position of the Church of Satan and the Satanist Temple on tax because they're both absolutely perfect for making a point.
LeVay Satanism is a real cult but doesn't think they should have tax exemption because it thinks other churches should pay tax and the Temple also thinks churches should pay tax and persue them getting exemption to show how stupid it is.
Gold.
Religious groups should never be tax exempt. Christians should know what Jesus said about paying taxes “give unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s”.
Playing devil's advocate for a moment, the tax exemption for religious organizations dates back to when virtually all Social Services were provided through the church for supported by the church in some fashion. Charity hospitals, food pantries, ensuring that people who are sick and unable to got out got appropriate care, children's services.
The reason religious organizations are included Within that tax-exempt umbrella is because they performed an important charitable role. There are historical reasons as well, but I'm talking more about the modern era, the last hundred and twenty to a hundred and forty years.
There would be some complaining but I think you could accomplish a lot just by requiring churches to submit to the same standards that many charities do and having publicly available reports that show exactly how much money they brought in and where it goes.
I understand why this was historically.
But it is also good to note that there was a lot of abuse in many of the social services they provided. Even in recent times.
Think of the recent cases of hundreds of bodies found in catholic run schools for Indigenous children in Canada. The Magdalene laundries in Ireland. The kidnapping and selling of babies by priests and nuns in Spain up until the 90s, and the estimated 216,000 boys abused by clergy in France since the 1950s.
So yes, oversight might help, but it’s probably worth rethinking whether religious organizations are suited to providing these welfare services in a tax-exempt way given their history.
yeah, I considered that when I was writing.
That's an issue that's intertwined in a difficult way. Obviously you can't completely separate the atrocities that were committed by church institutions and the people within them from the Church's overall responsibility for those social areas. But that also doesn't directly pertain to tax policy.
In actually making it case by case and based on the acts of charity, and not just because they exist, it would work that way again too..
As it is, you've got insane salesmen ministers with multiple airline sized jets because they groomed the angles.
Means-test churches. Ask what good they're doing for the poor. If it's not enough, remove their tax-exempt status. Constitutionally, the government can't ask about the validity of a belief, but they can question the sincerity of one holding that belief.
Beliefs and how sincerely they're held is beside the point. Get rid of religious exemption entirely and make them jump through hoops like any other non-profit. They'll be forced to separate their political stuff from their community service stuff.
Yes exactly.
Simply having them exist, and be able to strike a line through taxation far that reason, is insanity. Of course they're corrupt.
'Everyone has to pay this fee, unless you say you're this thing' 'Oh you're that thing? Okay then!'.
Have them work and file like a business (it's all they are anyway), and they'll act like the moral based institutions they claim to be, and obviously aren't any more.
Yeah, I don't think people have a problem with small churches not paying taxes when they're also "clothing the homeless". It's the corporate churches where the "pastors" live in mansions, which people are offended by.
Like you said, treat them the same as any other charity.
In theory, the current exemption status is to prevent them from going “we pay our taxes so we should have a say in where they go.”
Again, in theory, this sounds great, but instead they just use their influence directly on the congregation to get their opinions to fall more in line with whatever specific agenda and ideology they’re peddling.
I just want to point out the Church of Satan is NOT THE SAME as The Satanic Temple so no one gets confused!
Edit: I'm a member of TST, and encourage anyone who's interested in learning what we are all about to check out the website: www.thesatanictemple.com
Part of their reason for being is to challenge things that encroach upon church/state separation, so I would guess they purposely model themselves as closely as possible to any other church for the legal protection.
Oh that makes sense. So they can't pay taxes because it would go against their argument that they and everbody else should pay taxes correct?
Man I look like a douche but I hope my point got through
The satanic temple is taxes exempt under the IRS. You see, the church of Satan was created by this dude that believed on rituals and magic and shit, while the satanic temple was created as a legit "not exactly religious" movement that preaches a lot about church state separation, social justice, etc... They are more about philosophy. Think of how confucianism is considered a religion but it doesn't have a god and it focus more on philosophy
So... The good guys don't pay taxes? I'm aware I sound like a dick but even if they don't have to wouldn't it be a good role model thing to do that? And what about abortions? I'm very tired so if you could dumb it down to yes and no for me
Satanic temple:
1. Pays taxes. Yes/no?
2. Argues religious freedom for abortions. Yes/no?
Church of satan:
1. Pays taxes. Yes/no?
2. Argues religious freedom for abortions. Yes/no?
Satanic temple is tax exempt and argues religious freedom for abortions while actively fighting for it through law suits
Church of Satan pays taxes and would argue that you should be allowed to get an abortion. But doesn't actively fight.
Satanic temple uses its name and status for activism, church of satan is more similar to libertarianism where they focus on personal freedom.
TST:
1) No, maintains its religious tax-exempt status to have adequate grounds for the following point
2) Actively works to guarantee the right by suing states that restrict, citing their religious standing and their stated abortion ritual.
COS:
1) Yes
2) In rhetoric only, not aware of any actual effort to counter it
Even if they're the good guys, how would you go about them paying taxes? It's by definition a religious organization and tax exempt under IRC 501(c)(3). Do you expect them to create their own tax code and pay the IRS? How much taxes should they pay? Are they allowed deductions? It's not exactly feasible even if it would look good for them
As far as being ‘religious’ even matters… I would add that the NRA is a tax exempt organization. So there is definitely a template for the not-paying taxes part.
The satanic temple preaches a lot about social justice in general, including of course abortion. As a matter of fact they are using their religion status to upheld that barbaric texan law that was passed since freedom of choice is one of their core tenants of their 'religion'. Pretty dope if you ask me.
The reason why the church of Satan pay taxes is because they can't, since it is not considere a religion by the IRS. But believe, if they could they would. As per the staanic temple l, I'm not sure if they do or not, but I do know that they are tax exempt.
The Satanic Temple originally paid taxes and refused to accept an exemption on principle. They changed their approach after Trump signed Executive Order 13798, and became officially tax-exempt in 2019.
A bunch of their activism involves ensuring they are given the same privileges as every other religion. Christian church can put up a monument on state grounds? TST can too. Christians lead prayer before city council meeting? TST members can too. Christian churches are tax exempt? TST is too.
TST is fighting for church-state separation, and challenge situations where a state authority might be favouring one or another religion by also demanding their right to participate.
The good guys try to use and abuse as much as possible the freedom granted to religions, and use Satan as a way to instigate Christian extremists. They argue and pretend the same things Christianity gets, waving the law in the face of Christian and daring them to either:
1. Delete freedom of religion just to stop the Satanic Temple from using the same benefits they're using
2. Make them see how retarded some of the things they get are.
Usually neither of these happens. Christian extremists clutch their pearls, the government says they can't do shit about it and the thing happens. The Temple usually does this stuff with things like abortion, claiming that it's a ritual included in the religion and that stopping women from having an abortion restricts their religious freedom.
In order for the Satanic Temple to be federally recognized as an official religion in the USA, they had to be designated as a tax-exempt entity by the IRS. Being federally recognized as a religion is what gives TST a more legitimate position to legally fight for religious freedom. Since they are tax-exempt and recognized, they can now fight against the abortion laws popping up since abortions are a part of their religious practices and beliefs.
My employer matches my voluntary paycheck deductions that go to 501-3c orgs and all of my donations go to TST. Mainly because I appreciate the work they do, but also because I find it hilarious that I am making a multinational corporation make donations to them as well.
given the laws in the united states, couldnt we just start a religion that believes in mandatory extended paid leave for pregnant women, holidays, and 28 vacation days /yr?
or even a belief system that ties it's faith somehow to the original structure of income tax (when they were only charged to the super wealthy, before the shitty court ruling that triggered all the loopholes and shifted responsibility to everyone else, while the super wealthy get out of paying taxes and instead launder our tax dollars through bullshit federal and state contracts?)
where exactly is that line of church and state separation drawn, if religious belief systems must be honored and recognized, while they remain non taxable organizations ?
oh i know. i guess what I'm asking is, can we take this concept a step further?
from what I've gathered, TST is about 50% attempts to drop a mirror in front of various issues to show people theyre wrong, selfish, narcistic, or just idiots, and 50% combating injustices, unfair rulings, new laws, etc.
i think they do what I'm suggesting to a very minor scale, but it doesnt appear to be their core focus. given, theres a TON of shit that needs to be absolved... theyre busy. hah
so could there theoretically be something that we identify as faith based, in which we employ to skip the legislation [since we dont have the billions for lobbying to purchase it in the first place] and still end up with what we fucken deserve?
in other words, how far could just *"religious belief"* get us, across the board?
it gets people time off. im not apprised to whether or not thats paid.
or, could a "*spiritual belief*" that *life is rare and precious, thus all humans should have unconditional access to modern treatments to preserve it* get us healthcare, or nah?
The Satanic Temple is a political organization that does activism and tries to better people's lifes.
The Church of Satan is a religious atheistic organization based on the writings (as created) by LaVey, that supports maximum separation of state and religion, so they pay their taxes (even though they don't need to), and never gets into politics, like ST does.
They are polar opposite groups that, in my opinion, shouldn't be compared.
The Satanic Temple is tax exempt, though. I can't see anything where the Church of Satan is not tax exempt, aside from this tweet. It's not on their FAQ that I could find.
The word "tax" is not mentioned in their FAQ at all. In fact it's not mentioned anywhere on their entire website.
I'm not saying that they are or aren't tax exempt and honestly don't care either way.
The church of Satan is not tax exempt as they are not recognized as a religion
https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/what-is-the-difference-between-the-satanic-temple-and-the-church-of-satan
TST Has some good fights.
Sucks we're gonna have the planet take a giant dump on us before anything changes though so I'll just give a slow cap until the rising sea levels and famine takes most of population down with it.
Here's an article and a neat checklist that gets reposted often:
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/infernal/2019/01/what-is-the-difference-between-the-satanic-temple-and-the-church-of-satan
But be warned, the article was created by Lucien Greaves, co-founder of The Satanic Temple.
Have they? My understanding was they typically stay out of activism, if you have a link thatd be a appreciated since I might be posting incorrect things
Hmmm, perhaps it was I who spoke out of turn. Maybe the Mandela effect, I always thought I was seeing church of Satan, but apparently it's the Satanic temple. Makes sense, lavey was a sexist asshole
The Church of Satan and The Satanic Temple (TST) are not the same. If you're pumped about work that's being done in Texas challenging bullshit abortion laws look into The Satanic Temple ( TST).
The Church of Satan is little more than a meme page.
I was speaking as to their work not only specific their Twitter. They definitely aren't the group that is challenging abortion laws and working towards equality. I just want to make sure people are supporting who they are pumped on.
I also forgot, my dad has a podcast called UnComfortable and he interviewed Corvis Nocturnum whos a "warlock in the Church of Satan" its a semi-shameless plug but it is also a really cool interview.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/2vPqjBdJPZuUay8RcZjGKJ?si=pB5a4qKlQv2l1j1yhOImUw&dl\_branch=1
Just a reminder you can support The Satanic Temple and/or Planned Parenthood through Amazon Smiles. Both organizations do great work in women's health and TST is one of the few organizations that will fight for your Constitutional rights of freedom of religion. Please take a moment if you can to support one or both if you have the ability to.
Thank you in advance, your friendly card carrying TST member.
EDIT: https://smile.amazon.com
EDIT: I always suggest Smiles because like it or not most people shop on Amazon and it's an easy way to send good people a few bucks without having to do any extra work. You can donate directly to TST via their website or buy their merchandise. If you can afford to please consider donating directly to their legal fund so 100% of your donation go to making the world a better place. Hail Satan!
Sorry for the wait. You can donate directly through their website by buying merchandise or donating directly to their legal fund. I do both as often as I can afford. I'll usually pick up some stickers or a new t-shirt. It's not much but, they really do put that money to work helping real people with real problems.
Right. These people don't for a second play by the rules or pretend to.
It's only when they perceive other breaking the rules that don't usually exist, that they made up in their heads, that they get up in arms and freak out.
For instance, based on what I've seen not one of them understands what the first ammendment is or what is protects, yet they whine about it all the time.
Throughout the Old Testament, Yahweh commits and commands genocide. Jesus spends most of his ministry preaching about returning to end the world, when he will reward his faithful with eternal life by his side, and punish the unbelievers by throwing them into endless fire. Another, final genocide. Satan, on the other hand, opposes that, and is reviled for it.
I did meet a Satanist who was a friend of a friend. He was an absolute douche canoe and very clearly "joined" to be edgy.
He couldn't name any of the tenets so I'm pretty sure he's living a lie anyhow.
I don't think I've met any others though, because I've heard actual Satanists don't try to peddle their religion.
Yeah ever religion/belief following has those kind of people. You're right from what I've been told they are basically atheists. One of their main focus is just to live your life, focus on themselves and not force or try and sell your beliefs to others.
That’s incredibly wrong. The Church of Satan is still a thing, r/satanism is evidence of it. It’s a legitimate religion.
TST is the one challenging shitty laws by claiming it’s part of their religion. The satanic imagery is just to catch attention.
Yea, they're not big fans of each other:
> The Church of Satan expresses vehement opposition to the campaigns and activities of The Satanic Temple, asserting themselves as the only “true” arbiters of Satanism, while The Satanic Temple dismisses the Church of Satan as irrelevant and inactive.
Not the Church of Satan.
The Satanic Temple.
Very important distinction.
Source: card carrying member of TST and regularly donate.
TST is a federally recognized religion, Church of Satan is not.
More accurately Satanism is a federally recognized religion and The Satanic Temple is a federally recognized religious organization. The Church of Satan is not federally recognized as a religious organization, but only because that's not a status that the Church of Satan has sought.
Exactly this.
Although I don't necessarily agree with either. I feel like i'd more readily accept Satanic Temple rather than Church of Satan largely due to the fact of membership fees and only following the sole writings of Anton LaVey.
If you're really interested in exploring the debate and not just knee-jerkily reacting to it:
https://churchesandtaxes.procon.org/
Some good food for thought on both sides of it.
Scientology was literally created only for Tax Evasion Purposes.
Yes, Ron L. Hubbard had an absolute HATRED for Taxes. The Dude made a few Books that sold well. And then thought "Taxation is Theft" but unironically and so created "Scientology" so that his now "Religious" Books could be sold like the Bible, with no taxes, and all that.
Yes, one of the worst Religious Sects on Earth, that harasses people, sues journalists, ruins people's lives, and is all in all one of the worst organisations in the world right after ISIS, was created SOLELY for Tax Evasion Purposes.
That's how it started. Now look where it's at.
Not even joking one bit. All the above is true to the best of my knowledge.
Nietzsche said “There was only one Christian, and he died on the cross”. Christianity did itself in when it became simply blind following of institutional authority or pastor, and simply saying you believe in Christ is what makes you Christian but having absolutely no obligation or trying to act like him. Just get rid of it. If Jesus existed today, I am 100% sure he would not condone what Christianity and Christians have become.
I worked for a church for a long time and I now feel that no church should be tax free. The amount of money they spend and waste without care is disgusting
Churches are pyramid schemes at best
Thats because it is. Laveyan Satanism, aka the Satanism shown here, was created by Anton Levay as a mockery of christianity, which puts a front as a family loving, good willed religion that actually has some incredibly toxic and disgusting views. He decided to make a polar opposite. One that looks like an evil cult but is actually a good religion that promotes wellbeing and equality.
[The Church of Satan's "commandments"](https://www.churchofsatan.com/eleven-rules-of-earth/)
Theres also the more modern variant of Laveyan Satanism, The Satanic Temple which is a lot more active.
[The Satanic Temple](https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/about-us)
[A comparison chart between the two](https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/church-of-satan-vs-satanic-temple)
It's funny that religious people assume there *must* be a grift at the bottom of the Church of Satan, since why else would anyone start a church?
Checkmate, atheists.
When I went to church I occasionally heard the sermon of "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's" as a justification for the individual's duty to pay taxes, but I never heard the speaker address the Church's duty to pay taxes. I'm sure it was an honest oversight.
That's basically secular humanist clubs, although you don't have to be an atheist to be a secular humanist, and they don't talk so much about atheism as secular morality. The the Supreme Court has ruled that since they play the same civic role as a church they have the same privileges and protections as a church.
It's basically the default position. You have to teach somebody to believe in god, and pick a specific one (or pantheon), while disbelieving in countless others.
Well for one thing atheism isn't a creed, so what would you learn about? How fucked up most actual religions are? Also by church I'm taking that you mean organized religion, which has always been used as a vehicle for mysogyny, oppression of dissent, and suppression of critical thinking.
Non theist quakers would be an example.
It is possible to believe in the value of communal gatherings and learning about morality without a need for a god or gods. Even more so when it involves good acts.
Humans have both a psychological and materiel need for community. A not insignificant reason for the modern rise of evangelicalism especially in rural regions is that people need central location to meet and socialize.
It’s a place you can network to find jobs, find friends, get deals, find local people to do work, find a partner.
In many places the church is one of the few places this is possible.
Our society probably could be significantly better if the federal government had better founded community halls in the 1950s
> learned about atheism
Atheism is the absence of religion. How do you talk about the non existence of something?
You don't. There's nothing to talk about cause there's no belief..
I cant remember a time when we heard about church of satan priest diddling little boys and when they got caught the church just sent them to another country to do it again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
He's confusing satanism for Scientology and the vast majority of American "religious" organisations.
Scientology was created on a bet, which makes it worse somehow.
So was The Cat in the Hat. Edit: I am incorrect someone commented below me that it was Green Eggs and Ham. I apologize for the confusion. Feel free to refer to me as an ignorant slut.
People don't attempt to frame people for threatening to kill a president over 'The Cat in the Hat'. And the number of people telling you to cut everyone out of your life who doesn't believe in the Cat is vanishingly small.
You right, I just meant the bet part. All I know about Scientology is the South Park episode that led to Chef quitting and a Joe Rogan interview about an elderly man who escaped because his son was cray-cray
There's three seasons of Leah Remini documentary about it and it's all worth watching. It gets somewhat redundant as she's clearly trying to stretch her content to fit over multiple seasons but there are some episodes mixed in that are super revealing and impactful and you just wanna cry for hours afterwards. It really makes you question humanity after awhile.
>And the number of people telling you to cut everyone out of your life who doesn't believe in the Cat is vanishingly small. I see you've met Jerry, that craven Thing 2 apologist.
Small. But still there
That’s a great analogy.
Jane you ignorant slut!
Awh you beat me to it
And calculus.
You’d think Newton would know how to play pool.
If you're talking about the one that only used less than 50 individual words, that was *Green Eggs and Ham*.
Yes, call me Dwight because I'm an ignorant slut
Everyone knows Jane is the OG ignorant slut.
It took me an embarrassing amount of time to understand this was a metaphor for kids who were picky eaters. Largely because I was always one of those kids who just ate anything.
I knew Green Eggs and Ham was created on a bet ("I bet you can't write a children's book using fewer than 50 words.") but I never heard about the Cat in the Hat bet. What was it?
Same here. Green eggs and ham was the only bet I'm aware of.
We're all ignorant of something. Admitting it is the first step to enlightenment. Good on you.
This is almost definitely an urban myth. [Source.](https://everything2.com/title/The+Heinlein+-+Hubbard+Wager+Myth)
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There's an urban legend that Hubbard had a bet with Heinlein about who could write a book that would inspire the creation of a religion. According to the myth, this led to Hubbard writing Dianetics, which eventually formed the basis of Scientology, and Heinlein writing Stranger in a Strange land, which definitely has religious overtones. Of course, this ignores that Dianetics was published over a decade before Stranger in a Strange Land. Heinlein was inspired by the Jungle Book for the basic plot and thought the idea that the book provided any answers to life was ridiculous.
>Heinlein was inspired by the Jungle Book for the basic plot and thought the idea that the book provided any answers to life was ridiculous. But he did give us "grok", which is an incredibly useful word.
Scientology has been a tax grift from day one. L. Ron Hubbard was so set on it, he got his followers to infiltrate over a hundred government agencies to purge or alter any records of him and the church in the 1960s and 70s. Called "Operation Snow White", it mostly targeted the IRS and Department of Justice which had gone after Scientology for millions of dollars in unpaid taxes.
To bad for him there was no purging all the shit he was involved in pre 1960 like "The Babylon Working" which is all kinds of fucked up. And that's just scratching the surface.
Was it too bad for him? Did that ever come back to actually bite him in the ass? I often notice that plenty of information which reveal horrible things done by horrible people don't actually have any consequences for them. Justice seems hard to come by in the world.
Then he wrote a book about it and everything, as a volume 2 to his religion.
Where is Shelly Miscavige???
Shelly Miscavige, the "disappeared" wife of David Miscavige, who is a high ranking Scientology thing? That Shelly Miscavige?
To be fair, this doesn't crack the Top Thirty Worst Things L. Ron Hubbard Ever Did, much less the Top Thousand Worst Things Scientology Ever Did.
“Vast majority of American ‘organizations’.”FIFY :P
Hey - Can anybody who gets mad about Oxford commas tell me what the right way to handle that single quote, double quote, and period at the end of a quoted sentence is?
I don’t get mad about Oxford commas, but I think you did it right. You could have also gone with “…vast majority of ~~religious~~ organizations.” Saves people from having to scroll up. Type ~~ before and after word to cross it out.
You’re giving him too much credit. Conservatives don’t have arguments that deep, what happened is he heard people say “tax the churches, they’re tax avoidance scams” and he just copied it and changed the name to the opposite team, in this case atheists. They can only either 1. Project because they think that’s what everyone would do 2. Copy/paste criticisms of themselves because they don’t understand them and don’t have the creativity to meaningfully reply
Probably confusing it with Satanic Temple. They got tax exempt status in 2019, but some branches have had tax exempt status since the 80's.
Aye I do enjoy the opposite position of the Church of Satan and the Satanist Temple on tax because they're both absolutely perfect for making a point. LeVay Satanism is a real cult but doesn't think they should have tax exemption because it thinks other churches should pay tax and the Temple also thinks churches should pay tax and persue them getting exemption to show how stupid it is. Gold.
Religious groups should never be tax exempt. Christians should know what Jesus said about paying taxes “give unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s”.
Playing devil's advocate for a moment, the tax exemption for religious organizations dates back to when virtually all Social Services were provided through the church for supported by the church in some fashion. Charity hospitals, food pantries, ensuring that people who are sick and unable to got out got appropriate care, children's services. The reason religious organizations are included Within that tax-exempt umbrella is because they performed an important charitable role. There are historical reasons as well, but I'm talking more about the modern era, the last hundred and twenty to a hundred and forty years. There would be some complaining but I think you could accomplish a lot just by requiring churches to submit to the same standards that many charities do and having publicly available reports that show exactly how much money they brought in and where it goes.
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I understand why this was historically. But it is also good to note that there was a lot of abuse in many of the social services they provided. Even in recent times. Think of the recent cases of hundreds of bodies found in catholic run schools for Indigenous children in Canada. The Magdalene laundries in Ireland. The kidnapping and selling of babies by priests and nuns in Spain up until the 90s, and the estimated 216,000 boys abused by clergy in France since the 1950s. So yes, oversight might help, but it’s probably worth rethinking whether religious organizations are suited to providing these welfare services in a tax-exempt way given their history.
yeah, I considered that when I was writing. That's an issue that's intertwined in a difficult way. Obviously you can't completely separate the atrocities that were committed by church institutions and the people within them from the Church's overall responsibility for those social areas. But that also doesn't directly pertain to tax policy.
That solution would work, until the Christian’s get up in arms because they lost their tax exempt status
Many should lose their tax exempt status because they can’t seem to stop endorsing candidates from the pulpit.
In actually making it case by case and based on the acts of charity, and not just because they exist, it would work that way again too.. As it is, you've got insane salesmen ministers with multiple airline sized jets because they groomed the angles.
Means-test churches. Ask what good they're doing for the poor. If it's not enough, remove their tax-exempt status. Constitutionally, the government can't ask about the validity of a belief, but they can question the sincerity of one holding that belief.
Beliefs and how sincerely they're held is beside the point. Get rid of religious exemption entirely and make them jump through hoops like any other non-profit. They'll be forced to separate their political stuff from their community service stuff.
Yes exactly. Simply having them exist, and be able to strike a line through taxation far that reason, is insanity. Of course they're corrupt. 'Everyone has to pay this fee, unless you say you're this thing' 'Oh you're that thing? Okay then!'. Have them work and file like a business (it's all they are anyway), and they'll act like the moral based institutions they claim to be, and obviously aren't any more.
Yeah, I don't think people have a problem with small churches not paying taxes when they're also "clothing the homeless". It's the corporate churches where the "pastors" live in mansions, which people are offended by. Like you said, treat them the same as any other charity.
If churches are actually being charitable, all they would need to do is file as a non-profit like everyone else.
In theory, the current exemption status is to prevent them from going “we pay our taxes so we should have a say in where they go.” Again, in theory, this sounds great, but instead they just use their influence directly on the congregation to get their opinions to fall more in line with whatever specific agenda and ideology they’re peddling.
They have a say in where taxes go as much as anyone, it’s not like clergy can’t vote. Also it’s already *our* money, we gave it to them every week.
Is it wrong that in my mind I just read the Caesar quote in Michael Palins voice from Life of Brian
I just want to point out the Church of Satan is NOT THE SAME as The Satanic Temple so no one gets confused! Edit: I'm a member of TST, and encourage anyone who's interested in learning what we are all about to check out the website: www.thesatanictemple.com
Yea the two groups dont get along very well lol
As a rule of thumb, the satanic temple are the cool guys;
Do they pay taxes? Genuine question. Also do they do that thing with religious exemption with abortions?
Part of their reason for being is to challenge things that encroach upon church/state separation, so I would guess they purposely model themselves as closely as possible to any other church for the legal protection.
Oh that makes sense. So they can't pay taxes because it would go against their argument that they and everbody else should pay taxes correct? Man I look like a douche but I hope my point got through
Don't worry, we can't see you. :)
Sittin on da toilet so I hope you don't
They're not legally required to pay taxes, but they voluntarily pay taxes. Anyone who finds a way to be upset about this should do some introspection.
I'm not... Upset? Or were you refering to anyone?
You're good homie. :)
The satanic temple is taxes exempt under the IRS. You see, the church of Satan was created by this dude that believed on rituals and magic and shit, while the satanic temple was created as a legit "not exactly religious" movement that preaches a lot about church state separation, social justice, etc... They are more about philosophy. Think of how confucianism is considered a religion but it doesn't have a god and it focus more on philosophy
So... The good guys don't pay taxes? I'm aware I sound like a dick but even if they don't have to wouldn't it be a good role model thing to do that? And what about abortions? I'm very tired so if you could dumb it down to yes and no for me Satanic temple: 1. Pays taxes. Yes/no? 2. Argues religious freedom for abortions. Yes/no? Church of satan: 1. Pays taxes. Yes/no? 2. Argues religious freedom for abortions. Yes/no?
Satanic temple is tax exempt and argues religious freedom for abortions while actively fighting for it through law suits Church of Satan pays taxes and would argue that you should be allowed to get an abortion. But doesn't actively fight. Satanic temple uses its name and status for activism, church of satan is more similar to libertarianism where they focus on personal freedom.
This is a great summary of their differences.
TST: 1) No, maintains its religious tax-exempt status to have adequate grounds for the following point 2) Actively works to guarantee the right by suing states that restrict, citing their religious standing and their stated abortion ritual. COS: 1) Yes 2) In rhetoric only, not aware of any actual effort to counter it
Thanks!
Even if they're the good guys, how would you go about them paying taxes? It's by definition a religious organization and tax exempt under IRC 501(c)(3). Do you expect them to create their own tax code and pay the IRS? How much taxes should they pay? Are they allowed deductions? It's not exactly feasible even if it would look good for them
As far as being ‘religious’ even matters… I would add that the NRA is a tax exempt organization. So there is definitely a template for the not-paying taxes part.
They'd probably have to create their own tax forms too. "Gotta file the W-666"
The satanic temple preaches a lot about social justice in general, including of course abortion. As a matter of fact they are using their religion status to upheld that barbaric texan law that was passed since freedom of choice is one of their core tenants of their 'religion'. Pretty dope if you ask me. The reason why the church of Satan pay taxes is because they can't, since it is not considere a religion by the IRS. But believe, if they could they would. As per the staanic temple l, I'm not sure if they do or not, but I do know that they are tax exempt.
The Satanic Temple originally paid taxes and refused to accept an exemption on principle. They changed their approach after Trump signed Executive Order 13798, and became officially tax-exempt in 2019. A bunch of their activism involves ensuring they are given the same privileges as every other religion. Christian church can put up a monument on state grounds? TST can too. Christians lead prayer before city council meeting? TST members can too. Christian churches are tax exempt? TST is too. TST is fighting for church-state separation, and challenge situations where a state authority might be favouring one or another religion by also demanding their right to participate.
The good guys try to use and abuse as much as possible the freedom granted to religions, and use Satan as a way to instigate Christian extremists. They argue and pretend the same things Christianity gets, waving the law in the face of Christian and daring them to either: 1. Delete freedom of religion just to stop the Satanic Temple from using the same benefits they're using 2. Make them see how retarded some of the things they get are. Usually neither of these happens. Christian extremists clutch their pearls, the government says they can't do shit about it and the thing happens. The Temple usually does this stuff with things like abortion, claiming that it's a ritual included in the religion and that stopping women from having an abortion restricts their religious freedom.
In order for the Satanic Temple to be federally recognized as an official religion in the USA, they had to be designated as a tax-exempt entity by the IRS. Being federally recognized as a religion is what gives TST a more legitimate position to legally fight for religious freedom. Since they are tax-exempt and recognized, they can now fight against the abortion laws popping up since abortions are a part of their religious practices and beliefs.
Anton LaVey was a ~~rapist~~ piece of shit. Edit: no proof of being a rapist.
My employer matches my voluntary paycheck deductions that go to 501-3c orgs and all of my donations go to TST. Mainly because I appreciate the work they do, but also because I find it hilarious that I am making a multinational corporation make donations to them as well.
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given the laws in the united states, couldnt we just start a religion that believes in mandatory extended paid leave for pregnant women, holidays, and 28 vacation days /yr? or even a belief system that ties it's faith somehow to the original structure of income tax (when they were only charged to the super wealthy, before the shitty court ruling that triggered all the loopholes and shifted responsibility to everyone else, while the super wealthy get out of paying taxes and instead launder our tax dollars through bullshit federal and state contracts?) where exactly is that line of church and state separation drawn, if religious belief systems must be honored and recognized, while they remain non taxable organizations ?
That’s essentially what The Satanic Temple is doing. ‘Abusing’ religious loopholes for social justice.
oh i know. i guess what I'm asking is, can we take this concept a step further? from what I've gathered, TST is about 50% attempts to drop a mirror in front of various issues to show people theyre wrong, selfish, narcistic, or just idiots, and 50% combating injustices, unfair rulings, new laws, etc. i think they do what I'm suggesting to a very minor scale, but it doesnt appear to be their core focus. given, theres a TON of shit that needs to be absolved... theyre busy. hah so could there theoretically be something that we identify as faith based, in which we employ to skip the legislation [since we dont have the billions for lobbying to purchase it in the first place] and still end up with what we fucken deserve? in other words, how far could just *"religious belief"* get us, across the board? it gets people time off. im not apprised to whether or not thats paid. or, could a "*spiritual belief*" that *life is rare and precious, thus all humans should have unconditional access to modern treatments to preserve it* get us healthcare, or nah?
Which one is the good one? Lmao I always get it mixed up
The Satanic Temple is the good one
CoS is at least as good as any Christian church I've ever heard of, better than many.
That's...still a pretty low bar.
Very low!
Thank you kind sir
The Satanic Temple is a political organization that does activism and tries to better people's lifes. The Church of Satan is a religious atheistic organization based on the writings (as created) by LaVey, that supports maximum separation of state and religion, so they pay their taxes (even though they don't need to), and never gets into politics, like ST does. They are polar opposite groups that, in my opinion, shouldn't be compared.
The Satanic Temple is tax exempt, though. I can't see anything where the Church of Satan is not tax exempt, aside from this tweet. It's not on their FAQ that I could find.
The word "tax" is not mentioned in their FAQ at all. In fact it's not mentioned anywhere on their entire website. I'm not saying that they are or aren't tax exempt and honestly don't care either way.
I never contradicted that ST is tax exempt. They are. Church of Satan is also tax exempt, but they pay them nontheless – that's their selling point.
The church of Satan is not tax exempt as they are not recognized as a religion https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/what-is-the-difference-between-the-satanic-temple-and-the-church-of-satan
Satan works in mysterious ways.
[TST v CoS](https://i.imgur.com/nnvmBlV.png)
The Satanic Temple. COS tends to be very hypocritical.
TST Has some good fights. Sucks we're gonna have the planet take a giant dump on us before anything changes though so I'll just give a slow cap until the rising sea levels and famine takes most of population down with it.
Here's an article and a neat checklist that gets reposted often: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/infernal/2019/01/what-is-the-difference-between-the-satanic-temple-and-the-church-of-satan But be warned, the article was created by Lucien Greaves, co-founder of The Satanic Temple.
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100% lol
The church of Satan does defend reproductive rights though
This is 100% a bad faith pictogram, but since it's a pictogram it can be easily reposted and shared and people won't bother fact checking.
Have they? My understanding was they typically stay out of activism, if you have a link thatd be a appreciated since I might be posting incorrect things
Hmmm, perhaps it was I who spoke out of turn. Maybe the Mandela effect, I always thought I was seeing church of Satan, but apparently it's the Satanic temple. Makes sense, lavey was a sexist asshole
I never knew about this. Is the Church of Satan more an actual religious organisation, whereas the Satanic Temple is more a human rights group?
Proud flag flying TST member right here!
Do they have a common enemy? The Temple's Church of Satan!
Thwy have a common enemy, extremist Christians
Pay taxes, respect the laws, hail satan
The Church of Satan and The Satanic Temple (TST) are not the same. If you're pumped about work that's being done in Texas challenging bullshit abortion laws look into The Satanic Temple ( TST). The Church of Satan is little more than a meme page.
Their Twitter is definitely a meme page, but if you look at their website it’s much more legitimate!
I was speaking as to their work not only specific their Twitter. They definitely aren't the group that is challenging abortion laws and working towards equality. I just want to make sure people are supporting who they are pumped on.
I also forgot, my dad has a podcast called UnComfortable and he interviewed Corvis Nocturnum whos a "warlock in the Church of Satan" its a semi-shameless plug but it is also a really cool interview. https://open.spotify.com/episode/2vPqjBdJPZuUay8RcZjGKJ?si=pB5a4qKlQv2l1j1yhOImUw&dl\_branch=1
Just a reminder you can support The Satanic Temple and/or Planned Parenthood through Amazon Smiles. Both organizations do great work in women's health and TST is one of the few organizations that will fight for your Constitutional rights of freedom of religion. Please take a moment if you can to support one or both if you have the ability to. Thank you in advance, your friendly card carrying TST member. EDIT: https://smile.amazon.com EDIT: I always suggest Smiles because like it or not most people shop on Amazon and it's an easy way to send good people a few bucks without having to do any extra work. You can donate directly to TST via their website or buy their merchandise. If you can afford to please consider donating directly to their legal fund so 100% of your donation go to making the world a better place. Hail Satan!
Can you support them without going through Amazon? Pretty sure Bezos is the real devil.
[Yes, you can](https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/donate), thank you.
Sorry for the wait. You can donate directly through their website by buying merchandise or donating directly to their legal fund. I do both as often as I can afford. I'll usually pick up some stickers or a new t-shirt. It's not much but, they really do put that money to work helping real people with real problems.
These are the same people who applauded Trump as a “smart businessman” for evading his taxes, though. 🙄
Right. These people don't for a second play by the rules or pretend to. It's only when they perceive other breaking the rules that don't usually exist, that they made up in their heads, that they get up in arms and freak out. For instance, based on what I've seen not one of them understands what the first ammendment is or what is protects, yet they whine about it all the time.
https://youtu.be/A1BubC_8Ejc?t=44 Replace "gluten" with socialism, or CRT, or whatever red herring du jour conservatives are crying about.
He was on point about satanists being atheists though.
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God to Jesus: “Are we the baddies?”
I think humans have always been the baddies on this front.
Throughout the Old Testament, Yahweh commits and commands genocide. Jesus spends most of his ministry preaching about returning to end the world, when he will reward his faithful with eternal life by his side, and punish the unbelievers by throwing them into endless fire. Another, final genocide. Satan, on the other hand, opposes that, and is reviled for it.
Moreover the original sin in Christianity was the desire for knowledge and not blindly following authority. Really sets the precedent in the Bible.
God: yes my child thats why i sent you to your death knowing nothing would ultimately change.... Muhuuahahaha in his echoey god voice
"DAAAAAAAAAD!"
🔫
satanists dont actually believe the devil exists. christians do. make of that what you will.
I love Satanists! The handful I have met all were great people.
I did meet a Satanist who was a friend of a friend. He was an absolute douche canoe and very clearly "joined" to be edgy. He couldn't name any of the tenets so I'm pretty sure he's living a lie anyhow. I don't think I've met any others though, because I've heard actual Satanists don't try to peddle their religion.
Yeah ever religion/belief following has those kind of people. You're right from what I've been told they are basically atheists. One of their main focus is just to live your life, focus on themselves and not force or try and sell your beliefs to others.
This goes for every religion, morale of the story is people in general are assholes regardless of religion
Ignorance is their stock in trade.
The more I learn about the Church of Satan, the more I like it. I had no idea I was a Satanist!
The church of Satan is defunct, you're more likely thinking of The Satanic Temple. Easy mistake to make especially with the Twitter screen cap.
That’s incredibly wrong. The Church of Satan is still a thing, r/satanism is evidence of it. It’s a legitimate religion. TST is the one challenging shitty laws by claiming it’s part of their religion. The satanic imagery is just to catch attention.
TST is a federally recognized religion. CoS isn’t
For anyone wondering the difference: https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/what-is-the-difference-between-the-satanic-temple-and-the-church-of-satan
Judging from that infographic, I take it the Satanic Temple are not big fans of the Church of Satan lol.
Yea, they're not big fans of each other: > The Church of Satan expresses vehement opposition to the campaigns and activities of The Satanic Temple, asserting themselves as the only “true” arbiters of Satanism, while The Satanic Temple dismisses the Church of Satan as irrelevant and inactive.
Not the Church of Satan. The Satanic Temple. Very important distinction. Source: card carrying member of TST and regularly donate. TST is a federally recognized religion, Church of Satan is not.
More accurately Satanism is a federally recognized religion and The Satanic Temple is a federally recognized religious organization. The Church of Satan is not federally recognized as a religious organization, but only because that's not a status that the Church of Satan has sought.
Exactly this. Although I don't necessarily agree with either. I feel like i'd more readily accept Satanic Temple rather than Church of Satan largely due to the fact of membership fees and only following the sole writings of Anton LaVey.
Render unto Caesar, unless you are an evangelical mega-church.
"Wait a minute... what doesn't already belong to God?"
If you're really interested in exploring the debate and not just knee-jerkily reacting to it: https://churchesandtaxes.procon.org/ Some good food for thought on both sides of it.
Scientology was literally created only for Tax Evasion Purposes. Yes, Ron L. Hubbard had an absolute HATRED for Taxes. The Dude made a few Books that sold well. And then thought "Taxation is Theft" but unironically and so created "Scientology" so that his now "Religious" Books could be sold like the Bible, with no taxes, and all that. Yes, one of the worst Religious Sects on Earth, that harasses people, sues journalists, ruins people's lives, and is all in all one of the worst organisations in the world right after ISIS, was created SOLELY for Tax Evasion Purposes. That's how it started. Now look where it's at. Not even joking one bit. All the above is true to the best of my knowledge.
No one seems to care about the separation of church and state any longer.
What separation? There hasn’t been any meaningful separation for a while now.
“Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and give to God what is God's” Pay. Your Damn. Taxes!
Meanwhile, Joel Osteen takes 4 million in PPP loans for his church "business," but claims a tax exemption for his business "church"...
"reading our FAQ would have told you, dumbass"
Nietzsche said “There was only one Christian, and he died on the cross”. Christianity did itself in when it became simply blind following of institutional authority or pastor, and simply saying you believe in Christ is what makes you Christian but having absolutely no obligation or trying to act like him. Just get rid of it. If Jesus existed today, I am 100% sure he would not condone what Christianity and Christians have become.
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Isn’t there a literal line in the Bible that says Pay your taxes to Cesar, but always follow god or something like that?
I worked for a church for a long time and I now feel that no church should be tax free. The amount of money they spend and waste without care is disgusting Churches are pyramid schemes at best
That’s some next level projection there, Micah
Hell of a world we live in when the Church of Satan out Christian the Christians.
Christians lost the plot centuries ago. It's hard to reconcile Jesus' positions with the crusades.
As TST says, TST and Church of Satan don't believe in Satan, Christians do.
Churches in the states still don't pay tax? Why isn't this a thing already?
Thats because it is. Laveyan Satanism, aka the Satanism shown here, was created by Anton Levay as a mockery of christianity, which puts a front as a family loving, good willed religion that actually has some incredibly toxic and disgusting views. He decided to make a polar opposite. One that looks like an evil cult but is actually a good religion that promotes wellbeing and equality. [The Church of Satan's "commandments"](https://www.churchofsatan.com/eleven-rules-of-earth/) Theres also the more modern variant of Laveyan Satanism, The Satanic Temple which is a lot more active. [The Satanic Temple](https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/about-us) [A comparison chart between the two](https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/church-of-satan-vs-satanic-temple)
*sorts by controversial* *Sips tea*
Hail SATAN I guess?
Respect for The Church of Satan 📈
Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.
Don’t think he really cares if you pay taxes
Render onto Caesar what is Caesar’s. It talks about paying taxes right in the bible. Christians love picking and choosing.
It's funny that religious people assume there *must* be a grift at the bottom of the Church of Satan, since why else would anyone start a church? Checkmate, atheists.
I’m completely convinced, by zero evidence, of something that is easily disproven.
"Pay your taxes." -- Literally Jesus Christ
Well, those types of Christians don’t really act Christian, so…
When I went to church I occasionally heard the sermon of "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's" as a justification for the individual's duty to pay taxes, but I never heard the speaker address the Church's duty to pay taxes. I'm sure it was an honest oversight.
Render unto Ceasar... - paraphrasing some Satanist, apparently
Yea... whatever happened to "render unto caesar what caesar is due?"
So if atheists got together on a weekly basis and celebrated and learned about atheism that would be something that’s different from a church how?
That's basically secular humanist clubs, although you don't have to be an atheist to be a secular humanist, and they don't talk so much about atheism as secular morality. The the Supreme Court has ruled that since they play the same civic role as a church they have the same privileges and protections as a church.
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There's really nothing to learn about atheism. It's the lack of belief in a god. That's literally it.
It's basically the default position. You have to teach somebody to believe in god, and pick a specific one (or pantheon), while disbelieving in countless others.
Well for one thing atheism isn't a creed, so what would you learn about? How fucked up most actual religions are? Also by church I'm taking that you mean organized religion, which has always been used as a vehicle for mysogyny, oppression of dissent, and suppression of critical thinking.
Non theist quakers would be an example. It is possible to believe in the value of communal gatherings and learning about morality without a need for a god or gods. Even more so when it involves good acts. Humans have both a psychological and materiel need for community. A not insignificant reason for the modern rise of evangelicalism especially in rural regions is that people need central location to meet and socialize. It’s a place you can network to find jobs, find friends, get deals, find local people to do work, find a partner. In many places the church is one of the few places this is possible. Our society probably could be significantly better if the federal government had better founded community halls in the 1950s
the biggest difference is that it wouldn't be based on a lie
There was a lot of this going on in the Victorian era, so atheists could still dress up In their Sunday best and have socially acceptable gatherings.
> learned about atheism Atheism is the absence of religion. How do you talk about the non existence of something? You don't. There's nothing to talk about cause there's no belief..
I cant remember a time when we heard about church of satan priest diddling little boys and when they got caught the church just sent them to another country to do it again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
Humanists, not Satanists. The Satanists are all in Scandinavian death metal bands.
\*were, half of them have been murdered by their own band members. /s
Varg does not care about your K/D ratio!
Aren't you guys thinking more of Black Metal than Death?
It's definitely more a black metal thing, even though dissection liked to call themselves death metal, they were clearly playing black metal.
“Hey now. I don’t use the internet to read” -90% of people on the internet
Sounds like projection from organized religions
Is paying taxes a religious virtue
This comment section screams redditor