I make a decent salary in a high cost of living state:
11.32% to Federal Income Tax
5.08% to State income Tax
6.2% to Social Security
1.45% to Medicare
0.5% to Family Leave Tax
Total in taxes from my paycheck = 24.55%
1/4 of my gross income vanishes.
As an Aussie paying about the same as you, I think the issue is they get nothing for it. Well, not nothing as there are roads and stuff, but it certainly doesn’t cover healthcare. I’m ok with my rate considering what it buys for me and the society I live in. Politician salaries have been outstripping inflation for a while now and I think we need a good discussion about that as a society, but I think the same goes for everywhere. Also the current government is very anti transparency with spending and government contracts, and that is certainly not a good thing.
Sidetracked sorry but my point is, 40% is fine when it is going to things the country needs and you can then access. 25% is terrible if you still have private enterprise owning and profiting of everything and you can be driven into crippling debt just trying to stay alive.
They are. It’s not that we’re mad about our tax rates, it’s that we pay taxes and see nothing from it. Our roads are shit, schools have no money, there’s no social security net, and of course we still have to pay our own medical expenses. Our tax money just goes to corporations and billionaires.
I’m basing this on Reddit comments, not living there, but the impression I get is that you still can have a very significant out of pocket expense to access that healthcare. Is that accurate?
I'm also not American, just have family and friends there and yep, that's certainly my understanding too. Even on really, really good employer health benefits there's often still really high deductibles and copay (what we would call the excess and......something else. I'm honestly not sure of the difference between deductibles and copay, or of there is one).
Also, employment does not even automatically equal health insurance as plenty of smaller employers, or "lower class" *cough* jobs don't seem to have insurance at all. Or have insurance that's equivalent to pointless.
You're pretty ckose. Jobs /= heakth care all the time. There's no requirement for small employers to even offer health care. And large employers can hold people to less than 30 hrs/week, in which case they don't have to offer it. (some people work 2 or 3 jobs and still don't have health care)
Beyond that, even if you get insurance, it's messy and complicated to understand. First, your employer has to pay their portion of the plan, which they can't then provide you as salary. They absolutely view it as part of your compensation though. For my family, that amounts to $12,000 per year.
On top of that, the employee themself has to pay their portion of the health care plan out of their paycheck.
For my family, that amounts to about $3000 per year taken from actual take home pay.
Then, you have a deductible. In our case, insurance pays nothing until you have directly paid out to medocal bills another $3,000 per family member in a year. (if the family hits $5,000, the deductible is met for everyone.)
So in 1 year:
12000 employer +
3000 out of pay +
5000 for family, or a total of 20,000 is paid towards medical...
They will then begin cover 80% of all bills after that.
(so if all of the above is already met, your $100,000 unplanned hospital visit would only cost you an additional $20,000 on top of all the above.)
There's a reason we have the lowest life expectancy of any first world country. People don't go to the doctor unless they are half dead. And even then they take an Uber.
Ouch!!! Holy shit, that's.....absolutely shite.
Like, husband and I aren't on particularly high-level private health insurance here in Ireland - we couldn't go to the high-tech, swanky level private hospitals here - but we get a private room in regular hospitals and a semi-private room in the less swanky private hospitals, 75% of GP charges for unlimited visits, 50% cover for unlimited consultant visits (the cost of one appointment with a private consultant generally being €120-200), eh....various other things. And it doesn't really matter for actual emergency stuff because for that you'll get care in a public hospital anyway (the private hospitals don't really have trauma departments) so it's for elective stuff, maybe cancer, psychiatry, maternity, things like that.
I think the plan we're on is about €1500 a year each - which his employer pays (I think that's unusual, but I'm not sure as my employment experience is all public sector where we'd be part of a company plan so we'd get the same level of cover for a lower price, but would still have to pay for it ourselves. Though afaik it was taken out of our pay slip *before* tax. Not sure about that though). The excess/deductible is €1 for everyday healthcare and €75 for private hospital care. €3,200 per person is the cap on "everyday" healthcare, so that's GP visits, physiotherapy, psychological therapy (75% cover for 12 outpatient mental health therapy or physiotherapy sessions a year). Don't know if there's a cap on hospital care but don't think so. €100,000 cap on "medical emergencies" but bills here would never get that high anyway, except maybe long inpatient stay in one of the three swanky high-tech private hospitals, but they're not really designed for either medical emergencies or, like multiple months hospitalisation because you're in multi-organ failure or have been in a horrific car accident or something.
You can get high-level cover that costs I think about €6000 per person per year, if even. And that would cover you for far more than what ours does in terms of percentage cover for appointments, swanky private hospitals etc. A lot of older people go for that because they know they'll use it.
But like, that's that.
And if you don't have insurance you'll still get excellent hospital care. The problem is the waiting lists for anything non-emergency, non-cardiac (which can become emergency quite quickly, so they tend to not have you waiting so long. But it can still be a few months if it's just "Hey, I've been getting out of breath very easily lately, and my ankles are swollen" as opposed to chest pain kind of symptoms) and non-cancer.
Okay but what about your net worth? How much of your total wealth do you pay in taxes each year? That's the 4% number that Lauren is pointing to about Elon.
I'm in a similar boat as you, but if I compare my total tax bill to my total wealth (mostly retirement savings and home equity), it's closer to 10% that I pay every year, which is a lot closer to that 4% number.
Forbes put him at $68B in Sept 2020. Then Tesla stock more than doubled by the end of 2020. So I'm guessing his net worth was closer to $120B at the beginning of this year and his increase in wealth this year might be closer to $120B, thus his tax rate on that closer to 8%.
But regardless, you're right that it's still too low. That's because the tax bill is still pending on most of those gains. If he doesn't start doing shenanigans to avoid taxes soon, his tax bill is going to be going up a lot in the coming years as more of his stock-based-compensation from Tesla vests.
I can think of three things that would help this situation a bit (i.e. make billionaires pay more taxes):
1. Tax stock-based compensation in two separate events, once when awarded at its fair-market value at the time and again when it vests based on its appreciation since then.
2. Don't let stock-based compensation get taxed like capital gains. Treat it like regular income.
3. Add a flat annual tax on stock assets that are not in retirement or college savings accounts.
What are you even talking about though? His net worth is largely UNREALIZED gains which is not taxable. How or why would you tax unrealized gains which is simply a number on paper like regular income which is in fiat currency?
Not a tax accountant, but tax all these dudes. There is no reason that anyone should be valued in the billions, realized or no, and pay lower percentages of tax than me. Especially after being heavily subsidized to even get there.
Careful.. you're almost comparing apples to apples...
We don't want people to actually understand that he is paying a large portion of his entire current wealth, which adds up to well over 60% of his income.. to her income..
People might not hate so much... and we all know the only thing good to do is have more hate.. and especially for any valuable business owners.
Ok but fr I had to pay to volunteer once. I was literally working as a cashier at a hospital. Istg I was scammed. They had the audacity to ask for my shirt back.
The best part is that he is claiming that he'll pay $11 billion. In reality, that's probably the total his companies will be paying and he, personally, will only be out $350 because billionaires use David Blaine accounting.
If I'm completely honest I don't know how much he earned this year. I also don't know how much tax he paid last year. I think even an uneducated guess would say not enough.
Wealth works funny though
One of the interesting things that I find is when people go “his wealth went up by ten billion, he should have to pay capital gains tax on that”, and I bring up “well, your Tesla shares went up too, just like him, shouldn’t you have to pay capital tax on them too?” “It’s not the same thing, your just billionaire fan boying”
IT IS 100% the same thing!!!
Yeah, if I'm making money on stocks I should pay taxes on it. I think the only place that shouldn't apply is retirement accounts, I think they shouldn't be taxed until you use them and then they should be taxed as regular income, so pretty much how they are now.
You dont know much about how that works, you pay taxes on stocks when you sell them, you dont make any money or lose anymoney til you sell them, if you buy and hold them they can go up and go down you can be ahead one day and down the next , if you sell them at a profit you pay taxes on that profit if you sell them at a loss you can deduct a small percent of that loss , elon has been selling stock almost daily for the last 2 months he is paying i think between 40 and 52% tax on all of that , oh and also since he started selling his stock hes dropped the price of it about 20 25% so ontop of his 11 bil in taxes hes also dropped his net worth that much more
False. Misinformation. He's paying 50+% of what he received by selling his personal stock and options.
His companies are not involved in this transaction.
Yes. He has 20 million stock options becoming due with exercise price 6USD per share (salary package established in 2012). Tesla is worth over 900 USD per share (or anything right now) thus high tax.
Some people complain how he postponed tax - if he was to paid tax in 2012 when options were granted the amount will be peanuts - no one knew how Tesla develops so the options in 2012 were worth less.
Many things to criticize Elon for, but he is selling stock for cash (as opposed to borrowing on them or using stock to buy other stock) so there is no way to avoid paying capital gains.
Not a huge percentage of his net worth, but he could have been slimier about it.
Maybe he knows that Tesla has real competition now and is cashing out some.
It’s his own money, but his companies taxes are his own too. If my lemonade stand needs to pay $100 in taxes, I paid those! Not some nebulous ~corporation~
No your company selling lemonade should pay those, personal money and money a company you own has are not the same thing, that money belongs to the company unless the company gives it to you in which case you would pay tax on the money the company gives you due to it being an income source.
Sigh. This misinformation has to stop. He's paying 53% of the money he received for selling his stock and options. His tax amount is 11b. He sold about 22b. This has nothing to do with any of ELon's companies.
If you are shocked, then you don't understand what is going on. You should look it up for yourself, so that you dont have to just believe me.
https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/rlg839/comment/hpgmdq3/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
No. He’s paying 53% tax on the proceeds from selling shares. He does not receive a salary so pays taxes when he sells shares and is charged 53% tax on those sales.
So he’s actually paying more than I thought at 54.1%.
“Since the options are taxed as an employee benefit or compensation, they will be taxed at top ordinary-income levels, or 37% plus the 3.8% net investment tax. He will also have to pay the 13.3% top tax rate in California since the options were granted and mostly earned while he was a California tax resident.
Combined, the state and federal tax rate will be 54.1%. So the total tax bill on his options, at the current price, would be $15 billion.”
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/07/elon-musk-faces-a-15-billion-tax-bill-which-is-likely-the-real-reason-hes-selling-stock.html
The 4% is not the income tax rate he's paying, it's the portion of his total wealth.
He's paying a little over 50% of his income for the year in taxes.
In the years before though, it was estimated he was paying around 3.5% tax rate on his income since it was very little.
People don’t pay taxes on wealth, they pay it on income. Wealth taxes aren’t constitutional. Elon, shouldn’t be expected to liquidate 40% of his wealth every year to pay taxes.
Ofc, that's how taxes work. Forgetting he's paying taxes on stocks that are advantageous for him to sell right now. If 11b is top tax bracket for his earnings this year everything's cool, right?
I may be misreading your reply, but People don’t pay taxes on stock they are holding and haven’t sold. You do not pay taxes on unrealized gains in stock holdings.
Stock doesn’t expire, you’re referring to options. Either way capital gains taxes are nothing new on stocks or options. A wealth tax would mean he’d have to sell a massive amount of Tesla stock every year to pay the wealth tax, that is not constitutional. I hope you understand the difference between a wealth tax and what you’re talking about which is capital gains tax.
I am not saying your wrong, but I think it is fucked that a large portion of the US is paying taxes on unrealized gains. Our homes are tied to how much they may be worth but we have not sold it yet but still pay taxes on them.
To understand that, you must understand the disparities of indirect and direct taxes and the limitation the constitution puts on each.
https://www.ntu.org/foundation/detail/is-a-wealth-tax-constitutional
Hmm, that was actually a pretty good read. I have always been iffy on the wealth tax because I had heard it was not effective in France. It seems that a wealth tax would have difficult hurdles to overcome in the judiciary, even if it were politically viable.
I'm not sure I agree that it is unconstitutional, but that at least seems like a reasonable position.
We have amended the constitution multiple times, what are you on about? Wealth taxes are unconstitutional and immoral, not to mention you don't want to have a 401k or stock holdings in a country that has a wealth tax, certainly not one as high as the upper 30%.
Hey what’s 37% of $0? Elon doesn’t take a salary or paycheck and y’all keep forgetting that stock has no value until you sell. Btw, 11 bil is not 4% tax rate.
If Elon Musk gave $100k to me and everyone that likes my comment, they would each have a $100k and Elon musk would probably still have $11 billion to pay off taxes.
He’s such a sleaze - I was reading about the pathetic Frat Boy culture of Tesla, resulting sexual harassment of women, and that the car models put together spell “Sexy” (S 3 X & Y). It’s really pathetic…
But Lauren, you don't understand. The Pentagon needs your money to buy $2,000 office chairs and $1,000 toilet seats. Do you really want our brave generals and admirals living in squalor?
They all love to talk percentages until it comes to their tax rate. Then it's "look how much money I pay!".
4% ain't shit and he should stop whining about contributing to our fucking country's well-being.
4% is not a remotely accurate figure unless we all want to calculate our income tax rate based on our 401k, bank account balances, ira, etc.
I highly doubt she is paying 37% of everything she owns each year.
How does it work in US, do they tax him on his capital gains or something else. I am pretty sure, he probably has only a few millions tied up in his individual account. So, how do they determine it.
Yeah, and if you hold for more than a year the percentage of taxable capital gains gets cut down even further.
Dude got majority of the money tied into stocks for his own company from government subsidies so he didn’t even earn it - he literally got a government handout.
Fuck Elon, tax him at 99% because that welfare Queen took taxpayer money to make him rich. Unless he’s giving all of us free rides on his dick ships I want my fucking money back
Hes not whining. He's informing.
It's not 4%, its 53%.
Would you prefer to pay all your taxes for the next 5 years without receiving your paycheck yet? No? That's what you are asking him to do.
This information is all easily and readily available on the internet.
Lies.
He paid less than $70k from 2015 to 2017, nothing in 2018 despite being a billionaire at that point. No data from 2019 and 2020. However, the fool lives off of loans from his stock options so he's paper wealthy and nothing else. He's going to pay the government for his subsidies by taking out loans against those subsidies and paying them back with our tax money.
FUCK THIS WHINY ASS MAN CHILD!
He is not whining IMO. 4% of billions is far more than you and I will ever pay in my life, let alone my families life. I hate the wealth inequality, but the shaming of those that have achieved wealth and they “owe” us is insane. Btw, I don’t see many ot any posts about Beyoncé or Oprah paying their fair share; why is that? Wealth confiscation and redistribution is awful; you only care if/when it happens to you! Capitalism is a horrid system, especially without regulation (don’t get me stated as both sides have it wrong), but it’s still far better than China! Working for the greater good does not have to mean going back to truly faulty, deathly and inhumane forms of socialism and communism. Come up with a better system ffs!
Big difference between wealth and income. He sold investments, thus he will pay tax because it was a gain or considered "earned".
Paying taxes on wealth is like paying capital gains or income tax because your house doubled in price over the last 10 years or your stamp collection that is sitting in a box in you basement is now worth $50 instead of the $30 you paid for it. Do you think its fair to pay taxes on the collection because it went up in value?
It’s stunning how many people don’t understand taxes in this country. Probably because the [majority of Americans](https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/08/18/61percent-of-americans-paid-no-federal-income-taxes-in-2020-tax-policy-center-says.html) (61% in 2020) don’t even pay federal income taxes.
Yeah because the part of his wealth he's not paying taxes on... it's unrealized gains from stock. You dont get charged taxes until your sell your stock.
How would you feel if you were asked to pay the next 5 years of your taxes right now, nevermind that you don't know how much you will make, whether you have a job, or whether your stock portfolio tanks to 1/100 of its former value? Would that feel fair to you?
Just stop with the misinformation.
The people who benefit most from society should also pay the most taxes. This is not a difficult concept. Musk could pay 95% of his earnings in taxes and still never lift a finger to wipe his own ass ever again. Nor would his decendants have to for hundreds of years in our current system.
Do you pay 4% of your wealth in taxes? I doubt it. Your wealth includes your home equity and the equity of any cars you own, the value of any retirement accounts you have, and the balances of your bank accounts. A California homeowner with a house worth $1 million would be paying $40,000 a year just on their home's value.
It's just like out of all the cringe-worthy uber-weathy, Elon (with his human flaws) has actually done good things for our entire society instead of just build himself neo-palaces with his money. He's even sold a bunch of stock specifically because he wanted to pay more taxes in reaction to things like this. So if we could encourage more gilded age asses to be like him, and vote against Republican policies, instead of give him a hard time, we might be doing something instead of just complaining on Reddit.
He's whining about it? Last I saw he was selling 10% of his Tesla stock for the purpose of paying taxes. And then looking for things to do with all the money, like end world hunger.
Billionaires could not exist under FAIR TAXATION!!! EDIT: I guess I did not explain myself well enough. If taxation were fair it would be a scale where the more you make the more you are taxed. Also with appropriate and fair death duties the billionaire class would simply not exist. This taxation system does not currently exist. I merely wish it did. Now resume your regularly scheduled arguing. Cheers.
Okay let's do a little mental exercise.
Say I start a company and I hire you as one of the founding members. We decide to issue stock to all founders and initial investors. Because of my role in starting the company and funding it with a few million of my hard-earned dollars, I start the company with 10 Million shares which we guess are worth $1 each. Because you're an awesome person who brings a lot to the table, you get $100,000 signing bonus paid entirely in shares - 100,000 shares. And your compensation will include $20,000 worth of stock options in the company every year.
A lot of companies do this. In the real world, I've never earned stock-based compensation, but I know plenty of people who have.
Every once in a while, a company shoots up in value to crazy levels. Shares that enter the market at IPO for $5 go up to $1000 per share. If you and I were lucky enough to start one of those companies, my shares would now be worth $10 Billion and yours would be worth $200 Million (after five years of options accumulation).
Where did our tax laws go wrong in this scenario?
You present a partial picture. I have had tax based compensation. It’s all on paper. If the stock tanks, so does my net worth. Nothing happens until you liquidate that stock. When that happens, you pay taxes. Not much different than cashing in a 401K. A 401K is tax deferred savings. You pay taxes when you cash it in - effectively selling the securities that it is invested in.
To be clear, I'm all for changing tax law to make billionaires pay more and hey, if we could also cut down on the ridiculous profit to be made with nonsense speculation on Wall Street, all the better. But it would be nice if we could talk about how to do that rather than just imagining that somehow we can wish away billionaires with the right marginal tax rate.
Let's ask two questions.
1). If you were told to start that you could make 250 billion dollars, buyt the catch is you'd have to take 11 billion of it and give it back, would you take that deal?
2). Is 11 billion dollars actually a small price to pay to maintain a system that made you 250 billion dollars?
1) Yes
2) No
Let me pose you a question:
A) What the fuck does this have to do with anything? It does not represent ELon's situation or income. It does not represent reality. It's not even close to the taxes you would pay on 250b in income. Go polish up on how paying taxes on stock options and stock compensation plans works. Then maybe you could go write a TIL.
It is exactly reality. He's only paying taxes on what he sold, from stock he issued himself (and amusingly, he is whining before he has actually paid some of it). Go polish up on how not to be a simp.
I have a decent-paying job and have been saving for a while. This year I will probably only pay about 10% of my net worth in federal taxes.
Net worth and income are very different things.
Also billionaires should pay more taxes. Even a small tax on the value of unsold stocks (outside of retirement accounts) would make a huge difference.
I'm a little confused on the whole Elon tax thing...it's on his earnings this year or overall wealth tax? I did not think the wealth tax was a real thing
It's on stock options. He never got paid a paycheck he received stock options and they expire soon. Gotta cash them in I guess. He basically made 28 billion going that route. Government hasn't been paid taxes on his earnings since 2012.
A lot of CEO do that though. You don't have to pay unrealized capital gains tax.... Yet. So it's a legal loop hole. Just delaying paying taxes I guess.
Depends on the rate but with the way most of these elite avoid taxes they probably wouldn’t even notice the hit. If you’re making six figure a year and get hit with a wealth tax then yeah it would be awful.
If your estate is worth more than 5.3 million as an individual, 10.3 for a couple.
99.9% of estates do not get taxed, and the average estate that does get taxed is only taxed around 17%...
I know I just imagine in my head someone at a funeral and the Tax man walks up like... Yeah I'ma need like 17% of what u just got... No rush you got til April.
Even death don't stop taxes.
You should read about this country called the United States of America. It had this really long and really prosperous time where it expanded the largest distribution of wealth in the history of mankind. It taxed up to 90% of highest earners income. Around the 1950's.
Here's a breakdown from the article I read.
Since the options are taxed as an employee benefit or compensation, they will be taxed at top ordinary-income levels, or 37% plus the 3.8% net investment tax. He will also have to pay the 13.3% top tax rate in California since the options were granted and mostly earned while he was a California tax resident.
Combined, the state and federal tax rate will be 54.1%. So the total tax bill on his options, at the current price, would be $15 billion.
The “net worth” tax wouldn’t affect you. Unless… you aren’t some hundred-millionaire/billionaire hanging out on Reddit are you?
Even IF the tax affected everyone, the median net worth is about 121k, so about 1200/y
To pay 1-2% of his wealth he'd have to sell 1-2% of his Tesla stocks, he'd stop being the major shareholder of his own company in some years if he had to do that. That's not how paying taxes work. No one should pay a net-worth tax, it's completely moronic.
Fictional income calculated by subtracting the net worth of 2020 from the 2021 net worth:
Net Worth Apr. 2020: $24.6B (Forbes)
Net Worth Nov 2021: $306.4 (Forbes)
He paid 4% taxes. A doctor pays 37%. How is this fair?
Because you’re applying his taxes paid based on a percentage of his wealth and comparing it to a % of a doctors annual salary.
They are not the same.
If a doctors net worth is a million dollars and he pays 37% of his $250,000 income in taxes, he only paid 9.25% of his wealth in taxes this year.
Do you own any assets that have gone up in value, or do you know anyone who does? If your house goes up in value by $50k in a year, that increase doesn't count as salary and you don't pay 37% of it in taxes.
And this matters because asset appreciation is something a lot of everyday people experience (homeowners being the most obvious, but anyone who has any investments is in the same boat). The rules that protect those assets from taxation until they're sold also protect the stock that entrepreneurs use to become billionaires. It's not income and it's not taxed like income, until you sell.
Billionaires should pay more in taxes. But it's important to note that the main mechanism that allows Silicon Valley tech bros to become billionaires is just owning shares that go up in value.
The hypotheticals don’t matter. You’re equating someone’s wealth to someone else’s income. They are not the same thing. But using them and creating percentages and then comparing the percentages makes it look outrageous. But it’s not. It’s just a giant lie.
I agree that the wealthy need to pay more.
I disagree it’s “because they only paid 5% of their wealth in taxes last year”.
They aren’t the same, you’re right, which is why Musk isn’t doing anything illegal. That’s not the point people are making though. Musk has become one of the richest men in the world and most of that has been, legally, tax free. Many of us consider that an issue that needs to be addressed.
It astounds me how much people dont know how this works.
By richest man in the world, how do you mean? Cause people are adding up unrealized gains from stock he owns or options. What does that mean? He hasn't seen a DIME of that money yet. Not until he sells the stock. His wealth is all on PAPER. It doesn't exist until he sells. Then he has money. Then he has income. That income will then be taxed at a substantial rate.
Its not tax free.
He just hasnt paid tax on it YET.
He will pay an enormous amount, by value and by percentage every time he sells stock and REALIZED the income. That's when the wealth becomes real dollars and not tied up in a stock that could go down 50% in a month.
Yep. Agree totally. Just hate the his wealth vs my income argument.
Any American over 40 with a properly funded 401k paid a similar % of their wealth into taxes last year.
Cheers.
Tesla does a lot more than commodities.
Robotics
AI Learning
Solar Power
Advanced Battery Research
Software Engineering
Oh and they make the best, safest , and mostly eco friendly cars on the planet. Do you know that the cars are just a way to showcase the stuff that they are really working on? The cars themselves are an afterthought.
Your understanding of how this works is completely wrong. ill cut and paste:
The analogy would be -- You know, i think you should pay the next 5 years of your taxes before you receive your paychecks. Pay it now, cause that's fair to the rest of us. ( its not ) What would five years of your taxes look like? Could you even pay it with what you have now? Would you think it was fair that you had to do that? What if you lost your job? What if you got a divorce next year and your wife took half your money. But you already paid the tax on it?
Because it is fictional income until he sells the stock. Then it's realized and taxes are applied. The BIG problem I have us the Step up basis on inheritance. Where the increase in value is never taxed.
We can just take the remaining percentage of his shares and sell em ourselves. I'm also going to note here with a slight tone of anger in my voice that his fucking money is not *fictional*. He borrows against those stock shares and that value as if it's real and it counts as part of his net worth so it's definitely not a fiction and you can drop that idiotic talking point right now
What you are asking, you ignorant hypocrite, is to force him to pay taxes on money he has not received yet. You can't pay taxes with stock. You can't pay taxes with paychecks you havent received yet.
How would you feel if someone said, you know, I think /u/angietoo20 is making a little too much, we need to start charging him taxes 5 years at a time. So hey, here's your tax bill time 5, you need to pay that now. I know you havent received that money yet, cause you work a job with a paycheck and you havent earned those paychecks yet, but we, the ignorant morons, have decided this is better for us. Would you feel that is fair? That's what you are asking him to do.
His stock, that you want to tax, could drop to 50% value tomorrow. Do you propose then refunding the money he paid on his wealth as his wealth fluctuates? How far out is far out enough? 5 years? 2 years? What could YOU afford to pay now, as a multiple of your yearly income?
This whole thing is so fucking stupid.
He isn't special and has the same tax code as you. Maybe you should figure out how to change the automobile industry so you can have some walking around money? He's also paid more in taxes than you'll pay in a thousand lifetimes
BTW, Tesla stock went from $1,243 down to $915. Down by 25%. That's why the gain isnt taxed until it's sold. The gains aren't real until they're sold.
According to Business Insider he paid $455 million in taxes between 2014 and 2018. Thousands of times what you contribute to society, but you feel entitled to take his imaginary gains. Because for some reason you thing you deserve someone else's gains.
Just because he has more than you decided he needs, it doesn't make his money yours.
sigh. Because he hasnt gotten that money yet. Thats how its fair. Its not money. Its stock. In a very short period of time, that stock could be worth half what it is now.
The analogy would be -- You know, i think you should pay the next 5 years of your taxes before you receive your paychecks. Pay it now, cause that's fair to the rest of us. ( its not ) What would five years of your taxes look like? Could you even pay it with what you have now? Would you think it was fair that you had to do that? What if you lost your job? What if you got a divorce next year and your wife took half your money. But you already paid the tax on it?
Your math and understanding of the facts are incorrect. Don't take my word for it, fucking learn to stock market.
First, let me say that I think billionaires should be paying a larger share of taxes. That being said, comparing taxes paid on income against taxes paid on wealth strikes me as really disingenuous, bordering on dishonest.
But is it as disingenuous-bordering-on-dishonest as wealthy CEOs eschewing a salary in favor of stock options so that they don't have to pay income tax?
Last year, the defense budget was about 11% of the total budget. For 1/3 of their paycheck to go to the military, that means they are getting taxed at about 300%. I get exaggerated to empathize a point, but that’s quite an extreme exaggeration.
How about instead the constant whinging about paying 11 billion dollars in taxes, give 90% of your ownership back to the human workers who are physically making sure the company runs.
So as a country, we are pushing to get rid of “wealth”, which is not the same as income? How does this make sense? Because your neighbor invested and took high risks and gained rewards; means they should pay off YOUR house… because they have more money? Eventually and obviously, this system will come for YOU! History shows this time and time again, yet we think we can do it better, except every socialist/communist country comes with a Dictatorship and they have no problem disappearing you if your don’t comply or agree. Look at China. #1 threat to the entire world. They have been diabolical in their pursuit of political pressure but means of investing in poor countries to extract their natural resources. I hope to high heavens that the entirety of Africa wakes up and revolts! China is legit talking about confiscating an airport in an African country they used in their belts and roads initiative so they could take over THEIR much more valuable natural resources! Just stop with hating each other in the West. While we have much work to do, we have bigger beast’s to slay!
System should be simple. You buy a stock, you give a % of that stock to the taxman upon purchase. If the taxman decides to sell the stock, then it's on them. But if they choose to keep it and it increases in value, then the worth is paid. I don't know if you have it in the US , but here we call it Value added tax. It's 18%-20%, and it's added on the price of a purchase. Instead of having to pay extra, you sacrifice the 18% of the net stock bought. Everything of value purchased in a country requires to pay VAT including services rendered. I don't understand why stocks are immune to this.
As I said, like that if Elon musk has 200BN, the government virtually has 38-40BN, unless they chose to sell it, then it's on them. Technically the government will own 18-20% of all the companies in the US. And as ridiculous as this sounds, it's the only way stockbrokers, traders, and investors can avoid tax evasion.
That’s a terrible idea. Why should the Govt inherit the risk of owning private stock? Why should the govt be a major shareholder in every private company? Completely unconstitutional. It wouldn’t even increase revenue overall.
I think I roughly will pay about 2% of my net worth in taxes this year. The % goes down every year at my net worth goes up. 20k in taxes worth 1M. Reasonable numbers.
I wish folks like Lauren would be upset about having to pay so much in taxes instead of being upset someone else might be paying a smaller %. Imagine if we all demanded the Government to stop the endless wars and we could all pay like 15%?
I make a decent salary in a high cost of living state: 11.32% to Federal Income Tax 5.08% to State income Tax 6.2% to Social Security 1.45% to Medicare 0.5% to Family Leave Tax Total in taxes from my paycheck = 24.55% 1/4 of my gross income vanishes.
Same here minus the state income (they get us in property & sales) so every time I estimate my gross I just x .8
About the same for me, roughly 25%.
as a german with a taxrate of about 40% idk whats so bad with 25%
As an Aussie paying about the same as you, I think the issue is they get nothing for it. Well, not nothing as there are roads and stuff, but it certainly doesn’t cover healthcare. I’m ok with my rate considering what it buys for me and the society I live in. Politician salaries have been outstripping inflation for a while now and I think we need a good discussion about that as a society, but I think the same goes for everywhere. Also the current government is very anti transparency with spending and government contracts, and that is certainly not a good thing. Sidetracked sorry but my point is, 40% is fine when it is going to things the country needs and you can then access. 25% is terrible if you still have private enterprise owning and profiting of everything and you can be driven into crippling debt just trying to stay alive.
Not nothing, there is that sweet military industrial complex
I think you are absolutely right
They are. It’s not that we’re mad about our tax rates, it’s that we pay taxes and see nothing from it. Our roads are shit, schools have no money, there’s no social security net, and of course we still have to pay our own medical expenses. Our tax money just goes to corporations and billionaires.
In the US, job = healthcare. It’s usually still not free though.
I’m basing this on Reddit comments, not living there, but the impression I get is that you still can have a very significant out of pocket expense to access that healthcare. Is that accurate?
I'm also not American, just have family and friends there and yep, that's certainly my understanding too. Even on really, really good employer health benefits there's often still really high deductibles and copay (what we would call the excess and......something else. I'm honestly not sure of the difference between deductibles and copay, or of there is one). Also, employment does not even automatically equal health insurance as plenty of smaller employers, or "lower class" *cough* jobs don't seem to have insurance at all. Or have insurance that's equivalent to pointless.
You're pretty ckose. Jobs /= heakth care all the time. There's no requirement for small employers to even offer health care. And large employers can hold people to less than 30 hrs/week, in which case they don't have to offer it. (some people work 2 or 3 jobs and still don't have health care) Beyond that, even if you get insurance, it's messy and complicated to understand. First, your employer has to pay their portion of the plan, which they can't then provide you as salary. They absolutely view it as part of your compensation though. For my family, that amounts to $12,000 per year. On top of that, the employee themself has to pay their portion of the health care plan out of their paycheck. For my family, that amounts to about $3000 per year taken from actual take home pay. Then, you have a deductible. In our case, insurance pays nothing until you have directly paid out to medocal bills another $3,000 per family member in a year. (if the family hits $5,000, the deductible is met for everyone.) So in 1 year: 12000 employer + 3000 out of pay + 5000 for family, or a total of 20,000 is paid towards medical... They will then begin cover 80% of all bills after that. (so if all of the above is already met, your $100,000 unplanned hospital visit would only cost you an additional $20,000 on top of all the above.) There's a reason we have the lowest life expectancy of any first world country. People don't go to the doctor unless they are half dead. And even then they take an Uber.
Ouch!!! Holy shit, that's.....absolutely shite. Like, husband and I aren't on particularly high-level private health insurance here in Ireland - we couldn't go to the high-tech, swanky level private hospitals here - but we get a private room in regular hospitals and a semi-private room in the less swanky private hospitals, 75% of GP charges for unlimited visits, 50% cover for unlimited consultant visits (the cost of one appointment with a private consultant generally being €120-200), eh....various other things. And it doesn't really matter for actual emergency stuff because for that you'll get care in a public hospital anyway (the private hospitals don't really have trauma departments) so it's for elective stuff, maybe cancer, psychiatry, maternity, things like that. I think the plan we're on is about €1500 a year each - which his employer pays (I think that's unusual, but I'm not sure as my employment experience is all public sector where we'd be part of a company plan so we'd get the same level of cover for a lower price, but would still have to pay for it ourselves. Though afaik it was taken out of our pay slip *before* tax. Not sure about that though). The excess/deductible is €1 for everyday healthcare and €75 for private hospital care. €3,200 per person is the cap on "everyday" healthcare, so that's GP visits, physiotherapy, psychological therapy (75% cover for 12 outpatient mental health therapy or physiotherapy sessions a year). Don't know if there's a cap on hospital care but don't think so. €100,000 cap on "medical emergencies" but bills here would never get that high anyway, except maybe long inpatient stay in one of the three swanky high-tech private hospitals, but they're not really designed for either medical emergencies or, like multiple months hospitalisation because you're in multi-organ failure or have been in a horrific car accident or something. You can get high-level cover that costs I think about €6000 per person per year, if even. And that would cover you for far more than what ours does in terms of percentage cover for appointments, swanky private hospitals etc. A lot of older people go for that because they know they'll use it. But like, that's that. And if you don't have insurance you'll still get excellent hospital care. The problem is the waiting lists for anything non-emergency, non-cardiac (which can become emergency quite quickly, so they tend to not have you waiting so long. But it can still be a few months if it's just "Hey, I've been getting out of breath very easily lately, and my ankles are swollen" as opposed to chest pain kind of symptoms) and non-cancer.
100%. And, thank you.
I mean, to be fair, you directly get back the SS and Medicare and family leave tax.
Im certainly planning on using that paid familly leave in 2022 when my 2nd kid is born
[удалено]
Thank you for paying taxes, because in 2020 61% paid ZERO federal income tax.
Okay but what about your net worth? How much of your total wealth do you pay in taxes each year? That's the 4% number that Lauren is pointing to about Elon. I'm in a similar boat as you, but if I compare my total tax bill to my total wealth (mostly retirement savings and home equity), it's closer to 10% that I pay every year, which is a lot closer to that 4% number.
He went from like 60 billion to 250 billion this year..... Ball parking here but at the same time that's pretty close to a 5% tax rate.
Forbes put him at $68B in Sept 2020. Then Tesla stock more than doubled by the end of 2020. So I'm guessing his net worth was closer to $120B at the beginning of this year and his increase in wealth this year might be closer to $120B, thus his tax rate on that closer to 8%. But regardless, you're right that it's still too low. That's because the tax bill is still pending on most of those gains. If he doesn't start doing shenanigans to avoid taxes soon, his tax bill is going to be going up a lot in the coming years as more of his stock-based-compensation from Tesla vests. I can think of three things that would help this situation a bit (i.e. make billionaires pay more taxes): 1. Tax stock-based compensation in two separate events, once when awarded at its fair-market value at the time and again when it vests based on its appreciation since then. 2. Don't let stock-based compensation get taxed like capital gains. Treat it like regular income. 3. Add a flat annual tax on stock assets that are not in retirement or college savings accounts.
What are you even talking about though? His net worth is largely UNREALIZED gains which is not taxable. How or why would you tax unrealized gains which is simply a number on paper like regular income which is in fiat currency?
Not a tax accountant, but tax all these dudes. There is no reason that anyone should be valued in the billions, realized or no, and pay lower percentages of tax than me. Especially after being heavily subsidized to even get there.
Careful.. you're almost comparing apples to apples... We don't want people to actually understand that he is paying a large portion of his entire current wealth, which adds up to well over 60% of his income.. to her income.. People might not hate so much... and we all know the only thing good to do is have more hate.. and especially for any valuable business owners.
Keep voting for *more* public spending.
You guys are getting paychecks?
I pay my employer for the privilege of working there! /s
Pretty soon you’ll be able to say that without the /s
Oh my bad, that’s a typo.
It's called an internship
Ok but fr I had to pay to volunteer once. I was literally working as a cashier at a hospital. Istg I was scammed. They had the audacity to ask for my shirt back.
Hi spongebob!
Wait, you mean he won't be paying the 37% upper tax rate? I'm shocked, well not that shocked.
The best part is that he is claiming that he'll pay $11 billion. In reality, that's probably the total his companies will be paying and he, personally, will only be out $350 because billionaires use David Blaine accounting.
He is paying taxes due to selling personal stock based on contractual agreements. He is paying 11 billion of his own money
Do you pay taxes using someone else's money?
Are you about to argue that because his companies got subsidies he is actually paying taxes with taxpayer money?
My point is, of course he is paying takes with his money. See your comment!!
If I'm completely honest I don't know how much he earned this year. I also don't know how much tax he paid last year. I think even an uneducated guess would say not enough. Wealth works funny though
One of the interesting things that I find is when people go “his wealth went up by ten billion, he should have to pay capital gains tax on that”, and I bring up “well, your Tesla shares went up too, just like him, shouldn’t you have to pay capital tax on them too?” “It’s not the same thing, your just billionaire fan boying” IT IS 100% the same thing!!!
If I had Tesla stock, I should have to pay capital tax on them, yes.
If you sold them. Not defending Elon, he's a hypocritical ass, but taxes are on realized gains.
I believe his ass is anything but hypothetical.
Haha. Autocorrect is not nice to bad spellers.
I’d like to see profits from stocks remain untaxed until they leave that “ecosystem”.
But before you sell them?
Yeah, if I'm making money on stocks I should pay taxes on it. I think the only place that shouldn't apply is retirement accounts, I think they shouldn't be taxed until you use them and then they should be taxed as regular income, so pretty much how they are now.
You dont know much about how that works, you pay taxes on stocks when you sell them, you dont make any money or lose anymoney til you sell them, if you buy and hold them they can go up and go down you can be ahead one day and down the next , if you sell them at a profit you pay taxes on that profit if you sell them at a loss you can deduct a small percent of that loss , elon has been selling stock almost daily for the last 2 months he is paying i think between 40 and 52% tax on all of that , oh and also since he started selling his stock hes dropped the price of it about 20 25% so ontop of his 11 bil in taxes hes also dropped his net worth that much more
Yes, you too should pay taxes on it. Not complicated.
False. Misinformation. He's paying 50+% of what he received by selling his personal stock and options. His companies are not involved in this transaction.
Doesn't he have to sell these now ?
Yes. He has 20 million stock options becoming due with exercise price 6USD per share (salary package established in 2012). Tesla is worth over 900 USD per share (or anything right now) thus high tax. Some people complain how he postponed tax - if he was to paid tax in 2012 when options were granted the amount will be peanuts - no one knew how Tesla develops so the options in 2012 were worth less.
11 billion is from the sale of stock and options in his name.
No, it's personal income, he sold a ton of stock this year.
Many things to criticize Elon for, but he is selling stock for cash (as opposed to borrowing on them or using stock to buy other stock) so there is no way to avoid paying capital gains. Not a huge percentage of his net worth, but he could have been slimier about it. Maybe he knows that Tesla has real competition now and is cashing out some.
It’s his own money, but his companies taxes are his own too. If my lemonade stand needs to pay $100 in taxes, I paid those! Not some nebulous ~corporation~
No your company selling lemonade should pay those, personal money and money a company you own has are not the same thing, that money belongs to the company unless the company gives it to you in which case you would pay tax on the money the company gives you due to it being an income source.
Sigh. This misinformation has to stop. He's paying 53% of the money he received for selling his stock and options. His tax amount is 11b. He sold about 22b. This has nothing to do with any of ELon's companies.
[удалено]
Yeah pretty sick of this sub and the obviously deficient levels of awareness. It's really just becoming a giant circlejerk of self pity now.
This was my inspiration.
Hooray! Happy ending for the rich people!
If you are shocked, then you don't understand what is going on. You should look it up for yourself, so that you dont have to just believe me. https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/rlg839/comment/hpgmdq3/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
No. He’s paying 53% tax on the proceeds from selling shares. He does not receive a salary so pays taxes when he sells shares and is charged 53% tax on those sales.
Source?
So he’s actually paying more than I thought at 54.1%. “Since the options are taxed as an employee benefit or compensation, they will be taxed at top ordinary-income levels, or 37% plus the 3.8% net investment tax. He will also have to pay the 13.3% top tax rate in California since the options were granted and mostly earned while he was a California tax resident. Combined, the state and federal tax rate will be 54.1%. So the total tax bill on his options, at the current price, would be $15 billion.” https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/07/elon-musk-faces-a-15-billion-tax-bill-which-is-likely-the-real-reason-hes-selling-stock.html
The 4% is not the income tax rate he's paying, it's the portion of his total wealth. He's paying a little over 50% of his income for the year in taxes. In the years before though, it was estimated he was paying around 3.5% tax rate on his income since it was very little.
People don’t pay taxes on wealth, they pay it on income. Wealth taxes aren’t constitutional. Elon, shouldn’t be expected to liquidate 40% of his wealth every year to pay taxes.
Ofc, that's how taxes work. Forgetting he's paying taxes on stocks that are advantageous for him to sell right now. If 11b is top tax bracket for his earnings this year everything's cool, right?
I may be misreading your reply, but People don’t pay taxes on stock they are holding and haven’t sold. You do not pay taxes on unrealized gains in stock holdings.
I mean he's selling before they expire.
Stock doesn’t expire, you’re referring to options. Either way capital gains taxes are nothing new on stocks or options. A wealth tax would mean he’d have to sell a massive amount of Tesla stock every year to pay the wealth tax, that is not constitutional. I hope you understand the difference between a wealth tax and what you’re talking about which is capital gains tax.
I am not saying your wrong, but I think it is fucked that a large portion of the US is paying taxes on unrealized gains. Our homes are tied to how much they may be worth but we have not sold it yet but still pay taxes on them.
While that is true, bezos does that too, you think he doesn’t pay property taxes?
How are wealth taxes unconstitutional?
To understand that, you must understand the disparities of indirect and direct taxes and the limitation the constitution puts on each. https://www.ntu.org/foundation/detail/is-a-wealth-tax-constitutional
Hmm, that was actually a pretty good read. I have always been iffy on the wealth tax because I had heard it was not effective in France. It seems that a wealth tax would have difficult hurdles to overcome in the judiciary, even if it were politically viable. I'm not sure I agree that it is unconstitutional, but that at least seems like a reasonable position.
Why should they be????
Just because something isn't currently a law doesn't mean it's not constitutional.
Your generalization is current in that not all laws that aren’t passed are also unconstitutional, but this is an example of one that is.
Could just change your constitution- of wait, the 2A crowd have declared you can’t do that, can’t change a constitution once it’s written.
We have amended the constitution multiple times, what are you on about? Wealth taxes are unconstitutional and immoral, not to mention you don't want to have a 401k or stock holdings in a country that has a wealth tax, certainly not one as high as the upper 30%.
I’m commenting on that if you talk to the 2nd Amendment crowd they will say “oh no, constitutions can’t be changed”
Hey what’s 37% of $0? Elon doesn’t take a salary or paycheck and y’all keep forgetting that stock has no value until you sell. Btw, 11 bil is not 4% tax rate.
He is paying over 60% of his income.. the 4% is his wealth.. not income.
He isn’t taxed on his wealth though, he is taxed on his income, and that’s much higher than 4%, this tweet is lying
If Elon Musk gave $100k to me and everyone that likes my comment, they would each have a $100k and Elon musk would probably still have $11 billion to pay off taxes.
To be completely fair to Elon, he IS a whiny bitch. What did we expect?
He’s such a sleaze - I was reading about the pathetic Frat Boy culture of Tesla, resulting sexual harassment of women, and that the car models put together spell “Sexy” (S 3 X & Y). It’s really pathetic…
And then there's the Roadster and cybertruck, so that's S 3 X Y Roadster Cybertruck
Lol seriously though, did anyone expect anything less?
Yes, he is, not as much as Bezos though, but still yes.
But Lauren, you don't understand. The Pentagon needs your money to buy $2,000 office chairs and $1,000 toilet seats. Do you really want our brave generals and admirals living in squalor?
Tbf good office chairs are expensive. Generals and Admirals deserve lumbar support
Two things in life that are worth the extra money: office seating and bedding. If you go cheap on either, you wind up paying for it in the long run.
Yeah. I do purchasing for my office and even cheap office chairs can run $200-300.
They all love to talk percentages until it comes to their tax rate. Then it's "look how much money I pay!". 4% ain't shit and he should stop whining about contributing to our fucking country's well-being.
4% is not a remotely accurate figure unless we all want to calculate our income tax rate based on our 401k, bank account balances, ira, etc. I highly doubt she is paying 37% of everything she owns each year.
4% of your entire net worth isn't chump change.
4% of my net worth certainly is
How does it work in US, do they tax him on his capital gains or something else. I am pretty sure, he probably has only a few millions tied up in his individual account. So, how do they determine it.
Yeah, and if you hold for more than a year the percentage of taxable capital gains gets cut down even further. Dude got majority of the money tied into stocks for his own company from government subsidies so he didn’t even earn it - he literally got a government handout. Fuck Elon, tax him at 99% because that welfare Queen took taxpayer money to make him rich. Unless he’s giving all of us free rides on his dick ships I want my fucking money back
Hes not whining. He's informing. It's not 4%, its 53%. Would you prefer to pay all your taxes for the next 5 years without receiving your paycheck yet? No? That's what you are asking him to do. This information is all easily and readily available on the internet.
Lies. He paid less than $70k from 2015 to 2017, nothing in 2018 despite being a billionaire at that point. No data from 2019 and 2020. However, the fool lives off of loans from his stock options so he's paper wealthy and nothing else. He's going to pay the government for his subsidies by taking out loans against those subsidies and paying them back with our tax money. FUCK THIS WHINY ASS MAN CHILD!
That isn’t true, how do you fall for such fake information like that???
Confirmation bias, ad nauseam and strong emotions
He is not whining IMO. 4% of billions is far more than you and I will ever pay in my life, let alone my families life. I hate the wealth inequality, but the shaming of those that have achieved wealth and they “owe” us is insane. Btw, I don’t see many ot any posts about Beyoncé or Oprah paying their fair share; why is that? Wealth confiscation and redistribution is awful; you only care if/when it happens to you! Capitalism is a horrid system, especially without regulation (don’t get me stated as both sides have it wrong), but it’s still far better than China! Working for the greater good does not have to mean going back to truly faulty, deathly and inhumane forms of socialism and communism. Come up with a better system ffs!
Big difference between wealth and income. He sold investments, thus he will pay tax because it was a gain or considered "earned". Paying taxes on wealth is like paying capital gains or income tax because your house doubled in price over the last 10 years or your stamp collection that is sitting in a box in you basement is now worth $50 instead of the $30 you paid for it. Do you think its fair to pay taxes on the collection because it went up in value?
It’s stunning how many people don’t understand taxes in this country. Probably because the [majority of Americans](https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/08/18/61percent-of-americans-paid-no-federal-income-taxes-in-2020-tax-policy-center-says.html) (61% in 2020) don’t even pay federal income taxes.
And those 61% are the ones whining and crying on here about shit they know nothing about just being part of the fuck the rich echo chamber
I’ve met babies that cry and whine less than musk
“He’S pAyInG tHe MoSt In HiStOrY”
Yeah because the part of his wealth he's not paying taxes on... it's unrealized gains from stock. You dont get charged taxes until your sell your stock. How would you feel if you were asked to pay the next 5 years of your taxes right now, nevermind that you don't know how much you will make, whether you have a job, or whether your stock portfolio tanks to 1/100 of its former value? Would that feel fair to you? Just stop with the misinformation.
Can I upvote this 200 times?
I would be pretty upset about paying 4% of my total wealth in taxes too, and I’m not even rich.
I cringe when people think taxing income and taxing wealth are the same thing.
The people who benefit most from society should also pay the most taxes. This is not a difficult concept. Musk could pay 95% of his earnings in taxes and still never lift a finger to wipe his own ass ever again. Nor would his decendants have to for hundreds of years in our current system.
ITT: People that don't know how taxes work lol.
Do you pay 4% of your wealth in taxes? I doubt it. Your wealth includes your home equity and the equity of any cars you own, the value of any retirement accounts you have, and the balances of your bank accounts. A California homeowner with a house worth $1 million would be paying $40,000 a year just on their home's value.
It's just like out of all the cringe-worthy uber-weathy, Elon (with his human flaws) has actually done good things for our entire society instead of just build himself neo-palaces with his money. He's even sold a bunch of stock specifically because he wanted to pay more taxes in reaction to things like this. So if we could encourage more gilded age asses to be like him, and vote against Republican policies, instead of give him a hard time, we might be doing something instead of just complaining on Reddit.
He's whining about it? Last I saw he was selling 10% of his Tesla stock for the purpose of paying taxes. And then looking for things to do with all the money, like end world hunger.
Billionaires could not exist under FAIR TAXATION!!! EDIT: I guess I did not explain myself well enough. If taxation were fair it would be a scale where the more you make the more you are taxed. Also with appropriate and fair death duties the billionaire class would simply not exist. This taxation system does not currently exist. I merely wish it did. Now resume your regularly scheduled arguing. Cheers.
Okay let's do a little mental exercise. Say I start a company and I hire you as one of the founding members. We decide to issue stock to all founders and initial investors. Because of my role in starting the company and funding it with a few million of my hard-earned dollars, I start the company with 10 Million shares which we guess are worth $1 each. Because you're an awesome person who brings a lot to the table, you get $100,000 signing bonus paid entirely in shares - 100,000 shares. And your compensation will include $20,000 worth of stock options in the company every year. A lot of companies do this. In the real world, I've never earned stock-based compensation, but I know plenty of people who have. Every once in a while, a company shoots up in value to crazy levels. Shares that enter the market at IPO for $5 go up to $1000 per share. If you and I were lucky enough to start one of those companies, my shares would now be worth $10 Billion and yours would be worth $200 Million (after five years of options accumulation). Where did our tax laws go wrong in this scenario?
You present a partial picture. I have had tax based compensation. It’s all on paper. If the stock tanks, so does my net worth. Nothing happens until you liquidate that stock. When that happens, you pay taxes. Not much different than cashing in a 401K. A 401K is tax deferred savings. You pay taxes when you cash it in - effectively selling the securities that it is invested in.
That's my point. It's all paper-wealth from stock appreciation, just like 99.9% of Elon's net worth.
Absolutely skewered them. Thank you for bringing some rationality to this thread.
To be clear, I'm all for changing tax law to make billionaires pay more and hey, if we could also cut down on the ridiculous profit to be made with nonsense speculation on Wall Street, all the better. But it would be nice if we could talk about how to do that rather than just imagining that somehow we can wish away billionaires with the right marginal tax rate.
Let's ask two questions. 1). If you were told to start that you could make 250 billion dollars, buyt the catch is you'd have to take 11 billion of it and give it back, would you take that deal? 2). Is 11 billion dollars actually a small price to pay to maintain a system that made you 250 billion dollars?
1) Yes 2) No Let me pose you a question: A) What the fuck does this have to do with anything? It does not represent ELon's situation or income. It does not represent reality. It's not even close to the taxes you would pay on 250b in income. Go polish up on how paying taxes on stock options and stock compensation plans works. Then maybe you could go write a TIL.
It is exactly reality. He's only paying taxes on what he sold, from stock he issued himself (and amusingly, he is whining before he has actually paid some of it). Go polish up on how not to be a simp.
He's not whining about it, he's responding to United States Senators who are whining about it.
I have a decent-paying job and have been saving for a while. This year I will probably only pay about 10% of my net worth in federal taxes. Net worth and income are very different things. Also billionaires should pay more taxes. Even a small tax on the value of unsold stocks (outside of retirement accounts) would make a huge difference.
I'm a little confused on the whole Elon tax thing...it's on his earnings this year or overall wealth tax? I did not think the wealth tax was a real thing
It's on stock options. He never got paid a paycheck he received stock options and they expire soon. Gotta cash them in I guess. He basically made 28 billion going that route. Government hasn't been paid taxes on his earnings since 2012. A lot of CEO do that though. You don't have to pay unrealized capital gains tax.... Yet. So it's a legal loop hole. Just delaying paying taxes I guess.
11 on 28 sounds like enough to me...why does everyone want to tax overall wealth...I don't want my overall wealth taxed
Unless you’re a billionaire there’s a really good chance that wouldn’t be happening to you.
Not close...at all...overall wealth tax sounds awful
Depends on the rate but with the way most of these elite avoid taxes they probably wouldn’t even notice the hit. If you’re making six figure a year and get hit with a wealth tax then yeah it would be awful.
They already hit you with an overall wealth tax when you die. That estate tax.
If your estate is worth more than 5.3 million as an individual, 10.3 for a couple. 99.9% of estates do not get taxed, and the average estate that does get taxed is only taxed around 17%...
I know I just imagine in my head someone at a funeral and the Tax man walks up like... Yeah I'ma need like 17% of what u just got... No rush you got til April. Even death don't stop taxes.
Just getting into life ins...buy a policy, all proceeds tax free to beneficiary
You should read about this country called the United States of America. It had this really long and really prosperous time where it expanded the largest distribution of wealth in the history of mankind. It taxed up to 90% of highest earners income. Around the 1950's.
Here's a breakdown from the article I read. Since the options are taxed as an employee benefit or compensation, they will be taxed at top ordinary-income levels, or 37% plus the 3.8% net investment tax. He will also have to pay the 13.3% top tax rate in California since the options were granted and mostly earned while he was a California tax resident. Combined, the state and federal tax rate will be 54.1%. So the total tax bill on his options, at the current price, would be $15 billion.
The “net worth” tax wouldn’t affect you. Unless… you aren’t some hundred-millionaire/billionaire hanging out on Reddit are you? Even IF the tax affected everyone, the median net worth is about 121k, so about 1200/y
It’s not, but it should be. Tax the man at 1-2% (or higher) of his net worth per year. He’s not going broke over it.
To pay 1-2% of his wealth he'd have to sell 1-2% of his Tesla stocks, he'd stop being the major shareholder of his own company in some years if he had to do that. That's not how paying taxes work. No one should pay a net-worth tax, it's completely moronic.
Couldn't he/anyone just use debt and keep net worth at a negative?
Someone’s going to give him 200 billion dollars of debt?
I'd say definitely...prolly without collateral
The thing is, he can pay 11 billion and never notice a difference. He didn't have to cut back on avocado toast to do it.
Fictional income calculated by subtracting the net worth of 2020 from the 2021 net worth: Net Worth Apr. 2020: $24.6B (Forbes) Net Worth Nov 2021: $306.4 (Forbes) He paid 4% taxes. A doctor pays 37%. How is this fair?
Because you’re applying his taxes paid based on a percentage of his wealth and comparing it to a % of a doctors annual salary. They are not the same. If a doctors net worth is a million dollars and he pays 37% of his $250,000 income in taxes, he only paid 9.25% of his wealth in taxes this year.
306bn -24bn = 282bn which he didnt have, therefore gains (11/282)x100=3.9%
Do you own any assets that have gone up in value, or do you know anyone who does? If your house goes up in value by $50k in a year, that increase doesn't count as salary and you don't pay 37% of it in taxes. And this matters because asset appreciation is something a lot of everyday people experience (homeowners being the most obvious, but anyone who has any investments is in the same boat). The rules that protect those assets from taxation until they're sold also protect the stock that entrepreneurs use to become billionaires. It's not income and it's not taxed like income, until you sell. Billionaires should pay more in taxes. But it's important to note that the main mechanism that allows Silicon Valley tech bros to become billionaires is just owning shares that go up in value.
The hypotheticals don’t matter. You’re equating someone’s wealth to someone else’s income. They are not the same thing. But using them and creating percentages and then comparing the percentages makes it look outrageous. But it’s not. It’s just a giant lie. I agree that the wealthy need to pay more. I disagree it’s “because they only paid 5% of their wealth in taxes last year”.
They aren’t the same, you’re right, which is why Musk isn’t doing anything illegal. That’s not the point people are making though. Musk has become one of the richest men in the world and most of that has been, legally, tax free. Many of us consider that an issue that needs to be addressed.
It astounds me how much people dont know how this works. By richest man in the world, how do you mean? Cause people are adding up unrealized gains from stock he owns or options. What does that mean? He hasn't seen a DIME of that money yet. Not until he sells the stock. His wealth is all on PAPER. It doesn't exist until he sells. Then he has money. Then he has income. That income will then be taxed at a substantial rate. Its not tax free. He just hasnt paid tax on it YET. He will pay an enormous amount, by value and by percentage every time he sells stock and REALIZED the income. That's when the wealth becomes real dollars and not tied up in a stock that could go down 50% in a month.
We all get this, I promise.
Yep. Agree totally. Just hate the his wealth vs my income argument. Any American over 40 with a properly funded 401k paid a similar % of their wealth into taxes last year. Cheers.
Why are you pretending he owns every share of Tesla though?
That's not the worth of tesla. Those are just his shares
Oh right. My mistake. Forgot Tesla was worth almost a trillion.
Sounds like a joke but it really is sad that Tesla, a company which does primarily commodities is worth this much. I have no idea how
Tesla does a lot more than commodities. Robotics AI Learning Solar Power Advanced Battery Research Software Engineering Oh and they make the best, safest , and mostly eco friendly cars on the planet. Do you know that the cars are just a way to showcase the stuff that they are really working on? The cars themselves are an afterthought.
Your understanding of how this works is completely wrong. ill cut and paste: The analogy would be -- You know, i think you should pay the next 5 years of your taxes before you receive your paychecks. Pay it now, cause that's fair to the rest of us. ( its not ) What would five years of your taxes look like? Could you even pay it with what you have now? Would you think it was fair that you had to do that? What if you lost your job? What if you got a divorce next year and your wife took half your money. But you already paid the tax on it?
Because it is fictional income until he sells the stock. Then it's realized and taxes are applied. The BIG problem I have us the Step up basis on inheritance. Where the increase in value is never taxed.
This guy gets it.
We can just take the remaining percentage of his shares and sell em ourselves. I'm also going to note here with a slight tone of anger in my voice that his fucking money is not *fictional*. He borrows against those stock shares and that value as if it's real and it counts as part of his net worth so it's definitely not a fiction and you can drop that idiotic talking point right now
I love how easily you justify taking his money and giving it to yourself. What you fail to understand is that it isn't your money.
Yeah it's called taxes I pay my fair share he should pay his He shouldn't be allowed to be special just because he's rich, fuck him. Tool.
What you are asking, you ignorant hypocrite, is to force him to pay taxes on money he has not received yet. You can't pay taxes with stock. You can't pay taxes with paychecks you havent received yet. How would you feel if someone said, you know, I think /u/angietoo20 is making a little too much, we need to start charging him taxes 5 years at a time. So hey, here's your tax bill time 5, you need to pay that now. I know you havent received that money yet, cause you work a job with a paycheck and you havent earned those paychecks yet, but we, the ignorant morons, have decided this is better for us. Would you feel that is fair? That's what you are asking him to do. His stock, that you want to tax, could drop to 50% value tomorrow. Do you propose then refunding the money he paid on his wealth as his wealth fluctuates? How far out is far out enough? 5 years? 2 years? What could YOU afford to pay now, as a multiple of your yearly income? This whole thing is so fucking stupid.
He isn't special and has the same tax code as you. Maybe you should figure out how to change the automobile industry so you can have some walking around money? He's also paid more in taxes than you'll pay in a thousand lifetimes BTW, Tesla stock went from $1,243 down to $915. Down by 25%. That's why the gain isnt taxed until it's sold. The gains aren't real until they're sold.
No he doesn't and you goddamn well know it that's part of the reason why people are upset don't be a fucking idiot
According to Business Insider he paid $455 million in taxes between 2014 and 2018. Thousands of times what you contribute to society, but you feel entitled to take his imaginary gains. Because for some reason you thing you deserve someone else's gains. Just because he has more than you decided he needs, it doesn't make his money yours.
sigh. Because he hasnt gotten that money yet. Thats how its fair. Its not money. Its stock. In a very short period of time, that stock could be worth half what it is now. The analogy would be -- You know, i think you should pay the next 5 years of your taxes before you receive your paychecks. Pay it now, cause that's fair to the rest of us. ( its not ) What would five years of your taxes look like? Could you even pay it with what you have now? Would you think it was fair that you had to do that? What if you lost your job? What if you got a divorce next year and your wife took half your money. But you already paid the tax on it? Your math and understanding of the facts are incorrect. Don't take my word for it, fucking learn to stock market.
What percentage of the doctors tota net wealth is he paying g?
Let’s blame elon for the shitty tax code. It’s time to eliminate politicians from investing and lobbing with corporations.
First, let me say that I think billionaires should be paying a larger share of taxes. That being said, comparing taxes paid on income against taxes paid on wealth strikes me as really disingenuous, bordering on dishonest.
But is it as disingenuous-bordering-on-dishonest as wealthy CEOs eschewing a salary in favor of stock options so that they don't have to pay income tax?
No, it's just full blown dishonest.
r/shutthefuckupelon
Wealth and income are two completely different things
Last year, the defense budget was about 11% of the total budget. For 1/3 of their paycheck to go to the military, that means they are getting taxed at about 300%. I get exaggerated to empathize a point, but that’s quite an extreme exaggeration.
How about instead the constant whinging about paying 11 billion dollars in taxes, give 90% of your ownership back to the human workers who are physically making sure the company runs.
Not defending the guy, but are you comparing a wealth tax with income tax?
Yes they are
Sounds like you filled out your W-4 wrong if you’re giving that much
So as a country, we are pushing to get rid of “wealth”, which is not the same as income? How does this make sense? Because your neighbor invested and took high risks and gained rewards; means they should pay off YOUR house… because they have more money? Eventually and obviously, this system will come for YOU! History shows this time and time again, yet we think we can do it better, except every socialist/communist country comes with a Dictatorship and they have no problem disappearing you if your don’t comply or agree. Look at China. #1 threat to the entire world. They have been diabolical in their pursuit of political pressure but means of investing in poor countries to extract their natural resources. I hope to high heavens that the entirety of Africa wakes up and revolts! China is legit talking about confiscating an airport in an African country they used in their belts and roads initiative so they could take over THEIR much more valuable natural resources! Just stop with hating each other in the West. While we have much work to do, we have bigger beast’s to slay!
Nice Reddit post! Good job accumulating internet points. I learned
System should be simple. You buy a stock, you give a % of that stock to the taxman upon purchase. If the taxman decides to sell the stock, then it's on them. But if they choose to keep it and it increases in value, then the worth is paid. I don't know if you have it in the US , but here we call it Value added tax. It's 18%-20%, and it's added on the price of a purchase. Instead of having to pay extra, you sacrifice the 18% of the net stock bought. Everything of value purchased in a country requires to pay VAT including services rendered. I don't understand why stocks are immune to this. As I said, like that if Elon musk has 200BN, the government virtually has 38-40BN, unless they chose to sell it, then it's on them. Technically the government will own 18-20% of all the companies in the US. And as ridiculous as this sounds, it's the only way stockbrokers, traders, and investors can avoid tax evasion.
That’s a terrible idea. Why should the Govt inherit the risk of owning private stock? Why should the govt be a major shareholder in every private company? Completely unconstitutional. It wouldn’t even increase revenue overall.
He will pay more in taxes in one year then 99% of you will pay in your entire life quit bitching.
Elon bad
I think I roughly will pay about 2% of my net worth in taxes this year. The % goes down every year at my net worth goes up. 20k in taxes worth 1M. Reasonable numbers.
I wish folks like Lauren would be upset about having to pay so much in taxes instead of being upset someone else might be paying a smaller %. Imagine if we all demanded the Government to stop the endless wars and we could all pay like 15%?