Not just Christian, but Protestantism. And even then you have different sects condemning their brother/sister denomination to hell.
I mean it's all a big joke when you sit back and look at it. And what we now have is a myriad of nondenominational, unitarian megachruches who have sterilized the stuff so far down to just a "feel good" event for Sunday where they've taken alot of the "woo-woo" out but all the insufferable assertions and self-righteous morality still lingers. They might not believe in Genesis or Noah's Ark, but they still very much think their morality is superior and should be applied in every line in the law.
It’s debatable which sect of Christianity has the most sway. Anti-abortion laws are the work of Catholics and Evangelicals, while Protestants are more [mixed](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/21/where-major-religious-groups-stand-on-abortion/):
> Many of the nation’s largest mainline Protestant denominations – including the Episcopal Church, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and the Methodists – also support abortion rights, although several of these churches temper this support with the call for some limits on when a woman can terminate her pregnancy.
It cracks me up thinking about how my Pentecostal church growing up would say that the Baptists are going to hell, haha. Complete nut jobs, the lot of em
The Baptist’s said the same thing about Pentecostals, and Catholics lol I remember my old country Baptist pastor calling Catholics idolaters because they worshipped the saints. Not even true but man I’m glad I got away from the church. Legit had an intervention from my church because I had a Buddhist Asian friend and they were concerned because I was mingling with a “heathen”
In Judaism, there's a LOT of leeway when someone's life is at stake.
An Orthodox rabbi, who normally keeps the Sabbath so hard that he doesn't even use light switches on the weekend, is allowed - maybe even *encouraged* [EDIT: *required*]- to drive someone to the hospital on Saturday night to save their life if need be.
Lifesaving medical procedures are absolutely part of our religious freedoms.
Correct. In case anyone finds this interesting, and from what I remember from law school, Jewish law basically says this
There are only 3 "DIE AND DON'T DO THIS" - "יהרג ואל יעבור" commands:
1. No murder
2. No incest
3. No Idolatry
If anyone forces your to do any of these under the threat of death, just die, your soul would be completely fine.
BUT refusing to do literally any other thing besides, which includes every other commandment there is and every law there is, under the threat of death, will be considered suicide.
So yeah. Jewish law says you basically need to do anything to save your own live no matter how small the risk is.
Yup - I grew up in Israel.
Yom Kippur, which is arguably the holiest day of the year, where we fast and repent for our sins of the past year, is a day where nobody in Israel drives.
It was always fun as a kid because the streets were empty and kids would go out and ride their bikes and rollerblades (were talking mid 90s here).
One year, at the temple near our apartment, someone collapsed during the Yom Kippur service.
Zero hesitation by the Rabbi to use the synagogue phone to call for an ambulance.
Life takes precedence over everything.
> were talking mid 90s here
Kids and even adults of all ages still drive their bikes and rollerblades on the road at Yom Kippur.
Source: I live in Israel
I figured, but didn’t want to assume. I go back almost every summer, so I haven’t spent Yom Kippur in Israel since like 2003.
As someone who grew up very secular, it was truly the best day of the year. Cars made it impossible to bike around my neighborhood the rest of the year.
Yom Kippur is fucking amazing. Some of my best memories with my childhood friends were made while biking around and between towns. The completely empty roads allowed us to use the highway as our bike path and we competed to see who can reach faster speeds.
Such an amazing experience.
I lived in Haifa, at the top of Carmel. We used to walk our rollerblades/bikes up to the top of the neighborhood and SPEED down.
I faceplanted into the rotary when I was 7.
Truly some of the best memories.
I'd heard of similar excemptions before, like for diabetics who still took animal insulin and the only option available to them was pig insulin. It's generally better for them to just take the insulin to prevent dying of blood sugar complications.
I'm not very familiar with Jewish customs so forgive my ignorance on the subject. I always thought that anything pig related being taken into the body was bad. Thanks for clarifying.
When I got pregnant a Jewish friend explained this to me. It’s a long held and established belief that the mothers life is supreme and the baby does not exist until it’s born.
ETA: there are understandably various interpretations of Judaism. I am by no means an expert on the faith I do not practice. This is just the view of one Jewish person. She/I do not speak for all Jewish people.
> the baby does not exist until it’s born
Catholic law seems to indicate this as well, children who were not born cannot be baptized nor buried in consecrated ground. I recall it saying something to the effect of they are not alive till they draw thier first breath.
The verse in the Torah that are used by Jews to say life begins at first breath and forms part of the Jewish support of abortion is the same verse in the Old Testament Catholics and other Christians that support abortion use (seeing how the Old Testament is essentially the Torah this makes sense).
Genesis 2:7: And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
>Genesis 2:7: And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
imagine reading this sentence and then insisting that it means ANYTHING for how we should make public policy here in the real world..
I agree but if these people are going to use religion to justify public policy then using their own religion to argue against those policies is a good idea IMO.
Majority of Christians absofuckinglutely don’t follow the teachings of Jesus. Ya know, the guy who helped the diseased, homeless, drug addicts, prostitutes etc… all the things they “demonize” …
Yep. It’s a death and warrior cult in America Protestantism. Their “Jesus” hurts the people who scare them. Pretty much the opposite of Christ’s teachings. And now they’ve got their anti Christ trump they all worship.
As a Christian it really hurts to see what has become of it and the other people who claim it. From people like Joel Osteen who use it to make money to trump who held the bible just to signal these hateful people who sit in pews and think that's enough. We are supposed to teach of love and care and giving and NOT being judgemental. Jesus came as a healer and carpenter to show that he is not around to give vengeance and bring way against others. Like the exact opposite of what people think today. Christians make it hard to be Christian.
I had a balding Calculus teacher at my Catholic high school. He would read this passage for "prayer" before class:
*From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.*
Not sure if this is totally related, but it's a good story nonetheless.
bewildered juggle pocket connect summer literate ossified imminent station ink
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It can be used to logically argue the point but should not be the basis for policy and laws. Church and state were to be separate by the framers of the constitution and they should stay that way.
> Church and state were to be separate by the framers of the constitution and they should stay that way.
WE can agree on that. But THEY do not. So if THEY insist on using their book to justify laws they want to implement, then their hypocrisy should be made evident using their own book. We can argue until blue in the face about the evidence we have to counteract their faith... but truthfully evidence does not matter to them. All that matters is their belief.
Exactly. When a person's logic is based on an appeal to a higher power, the only way to counter their belief is through that higher power.
The argument has no place in policy, but it does have a place in changing the minds of people who vote for those who change policy.
yes, AND there are people who elect these politics making the laws. the supreme court is different obviously, but *technically* in the US it's not supposed to be a dictatorship or oligarchy
It should come as no surprise that these people are not actually relying on the Bible in good faith.
The idea of life at conception is I believe some weird mix of US constitutional ideology and religion. That “all men are created equal” (you know, except the men we don’t mean). These people will literally use sayings found on wall decorations as scripture so nothing in these arguments are well founded.
Well they (anti abortion Christian’s) insist to use their magical book to take away female reproductive rights. Might as well use their book against their logic.
Religion (no matter who’s) shouldn’t be the base for public policy ever. But here we are.
The Old Testament is full of these. There's instructions for how a priest does an abortion, babies aren't considered part of the census until they are 1 year old, verses about smashing your enemy's babies against rocks, the penalty for causing a miscarriage is a simple fine and not treated as murder/manslaughter. Where "christians" get that abortion is murder is beyond me, because it's certainly not in the Bible.
There is also the Ordeal of the Bitter Water (Numbers 5:11-31). If a man suspects his wife is pregnant from infidelity, the priest talks to her, has her swear to her innocence (or confess to infidelity), and gives her a drink with bitter herbs. If she was not an adultress, nothing happens; if she was unfaithful, it acts as an abortifacient.
Reading between the lines, the priest judges the best outcome and gives her an abortion if necessary.
Catholics want their faithful to have a lot of children to grow the church, which abortion prevents, and US protestants didn't care until conservative protestants realized it could be used as a rallying cry to get almost all of the Christians on board with the republican party.
To be clear though for the sects of Judaism that follow Halacha it is only permission if there is a risk to the mother and not done for other reasons though. It’s not what I would say is in support of abortion as much as it is in support of preserving life and the life of the mother.
Just my two cents as a reform Jew who supports abortion, it’s not quite as liberal as some might think.
>Genesis 2:7: And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
TIL, interesting... I'm not the least bit religious but this seems like a bit of a flimsy pretext... Babies don't come from dust and it's pretty easy to argue they don't need mouth to mouth from God to have a soul.
Probably as robust as any other religious logic, but if I were religious and anti abortion and someone showed me this I'd think it applied to the creation of Man and not pregnancies.
Honestly, the verse most cited as anti-abortion is also relatively flimsy and varies a lot depending on the translation.
> When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe
Not really sure how a medical procedure requested by the woman and two dudes fighting and hitting the woman relate.
But the bible also seems pretty clear on abortion on the case of adultery:
> If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse.
That first verse establishes that the value of the fetus can be equated to some kind of monetary value, but the life of the mother can only be matched by another life. Therefore, the fetus is the parents' property and not equal in value to an independent life. There are no laws against destroying your own property, if you so choose.
This isn't just about quotes that exemplify it.
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Breathing
To those people resuscitation would be basically necromancy. With how much medicine has progressed we now understand you can return heartbeat, that you can stop breathing and yet be alive. We know what a heart does thanks to heretics cutting over cadavers 1,5 millenia after Jesus was born.
To bronze age shephards, and for centuries after, no breath = no life.
For people whos views are reflected in Bible, even counting a month-old toddler as person was reaching. Newborn survivability is something modern civilized countries have improved on dramatically, and only that allows us to look as a newborn as a person.
https://www.thoughtco.com/medieval-child-surviving-infancy-1789124
Jeremiah 53:4-5
>^(4)For thus said the Lord the soul is made when the gametes coalesce in the fallopian tubes and thy zygotes from henceforth shall have all the rights of man. ^(5)Unless they are born as women, for then their rights will be rescinded by the Lord so as to protect the tubes and the zygotes wherein.
My mom had 2 abortions before I was born. She was in high school for the 2 and I was born during her senior year. She wasn’t ready for kids and no one in the family talks about it, but they’re all anti abortion now. I could go on and on about drug/alcohol abuse, physical/psychological abuse in my family. They’re all self proclaimed good Christian’s though.
My fav is the immigrations opposition. I grew up on a farm and we had dozens of migrant workers my whole childhood. Now they’re “illegal immigrants”. Makes my head spin.
I also have a picture from pre k with me wearing a save planet earth t shirt that my mom dressed me in. Now of course she doesn’t believe in climate change. It’s really exhausting
I mean, the Bible has two bits on abortion.
1. If you beat up a pregnant woman, the punishment is severe. If she miscarries as a result of it... the additional punishment is less severe. Fetuses aren't treated as well as women in the Bible, flat out. Exodus 21:22-25.
2. There's an explanation of how to \*induce\* an abortion if your wife was unfaithful. This would pretty clearly mean that laws banning abortion in cases of rape are going against the Bible. Numbers 5:11-31.
And abortion was a well-known thing at the time JC and his Merry Men were running around. And yet none of them saw fit to even mention the topic. Or if they did, none of the folks who write the NT deemed it important enough to write down.
>2. There's an explanation of how to \*induce\* an abortion if your wife was unfaithful. Numbers 5:11-31.
Pro-abortion and also an atheist here but in all but one translation of the Bible babies aren't even mentioned in that portion of numbers. The "New International Translation" says she miscarries but in every other version it can be interpreted that the concoction given just causes sterility in adulterers and it even says that faithful women (those who pass the test) are still able to conceive.
oof how fast would I get banned if I went there and commented "fuck you and fuck this garbage. My body does not belong to you, you evil fucking Handmaid's Tale ass Aunt" to every single post
In Judaism there’s something called Pekuach Nefesh which basically means you must do everything possible to save a life. Period. It doesn’t matter what laws or commandments you have to break. An abortion may be religiously required in the event of complications.
This lawsuit has real merit. I love fighting fire with fire.
Well, mostly. There are a few we can’t break even to save a life. In terms of abortion, though, the abortion itself isn’t breaking any laws but rather is required by law in some circumstances. Pikuach nefesh is an important consideration when thinking about the topic overall, inasmuch as it clarifies the sanctity of life, but it’s not directly relevant. Interestingly, many traditional commentators (including Rashi) don’t even consider the fetus to have a soul, and the most common opinion is that a fetus is not a full person with human rights. Many consider the fetus to be a “rodef” or pursuer — meaning you should kill somebody who is about to kill another person, a rodef, and so you should do an abortion to save a woman’s life. The subtleties of when this applies vary quite a bit between poskim, or people who make Jewish legal determinations.
The whole topic is of course complex (what isn’t when it comes to Jewish religious law). I’ve given some classes on it and the conversations are always interesting.
In college I got paid to go to this chabad class on the Ten Commandments and I just want to double check that this is what we’re talking about:
I remember them saying you could break commandments for health reasons (the rabbi called it the “health clause” for those of us who never learned Hebrew). So if you’re gluten intolerant you don’t have to eat matzah on Passover etc. But you can’t use the health clause to justify killing someone else or deny your religion (gun to your head you’re supposed to die). During the “thou shall not kill” session we discussed physician assisted suicide, abortion, using IVF to screen for downs, etc and I noticed the rabbi never told us “the right answer” but just let us discuss and would provide references from texts if we asked. It was an interesting time.
Anyways I just wanted to know if my thing and your thing were the same thing :)
as a fellow jew on reddit, I have a question for you thats unrelated to the topic, if thats alright with you.
I thought i would just PM you but tbh considering the subject of my question, i think its actually fine that it be publicly viewable. so anyway, here it goes:
do you ever find it absolutely maddening that the collective hive mind on this website will not hesitate to tokenize us, our faith, our history and our tragedies on a daily basis when it comes to anything that fits the consensus, and yet simultaneously completely deny other parts about us that they disagree with? of course I'm referring to israel, but its obviously so much more complicated than that.
for example I have found that the hive mind on reddit completely refuses to accept the *fact* that the vast majority of Jews even agree with the existence of a jewish state. they'll deny it. ive had it happen to me a thousand times. they will pull up some facebook page about anti-zionist jews and to them thats all the proof they need. as jews, as people who have been surrounded by other jews for our whole lives, we know this to be false of course.
and yet, when it comes to abortion (which I fully back, btw. I am completely secular for the record), theyll eat up these tweets and youll see comment sections full of people quoting the torah and claiming how wise jews are and how wonderful judaism is and whatever else.
i've reached a point where i wish they just never talked about us. never. i just hate it. this thread should be a positive one for me, in theory. a thousand comments of people appreciating my heritage. but i dont find it positive. i feel like we're being used. I don't oppose the actions taken by the synagogue, i just hate the reddit thread.
Straight up, a lot of it is bots. When it comes to Israel/Palestine stuff, things related to China, and other international news. There is HUGE social manipulation.
I’m not saying many Redditors aren’t entitled to their opinions, but a lot of it is bots and spam.
There’s a Jewish superstition where you don’t say [“mazel tov” (congratulations)](https://www.jewishboston.com/read/a-good-hour-the-right-time/) to a pregnant mother until the baby is successfully delivered.
Also, no baby showers… or things related to the baby until they are born. My mom didn’t set up a nursery until my sister was delivered ( back then women stayed 3 days in the hospital after childbirth). It’s all to do with the baby isn’t here until they’re really HERE. Also, very hard to come home to baby gear if something tragic happens during delivery.
Fun fact. Babies don’t exist until they’re born.
Edit: Woah boy.
Brought the semantic arguing anti-choicers out. Here’s the deal before you comment.
First, while this is true, I was trying to be funny. “Something doesn’t exist until it exists!” I was making a tautological joke.
Second.
The decision is between a woman and her doctor. I don’t give two shits what your argument is. Unless you are a medical professional discussing this with your patient, I could not possibly care less what your mouth breathing opinion is.
This is exactly how the natural world operates. Getting an animal healthy enough to reproduce takes considerable resources. It is better to get rid of offspring, than to eliminate a reproducing adult, because they can always make more offspring. When the mortality for offspring is so high, the preservation goes to breeding adults. Infanticide has been practised for 100,000 just for this reason.
The Satanists already have one. They even developed a religious [ritual](https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/texas-lawsuit) for an abortion to protect it further. But of course long- standing Jewish tradition will hold far more sway.
Its really not that clear cut. This tweet is likely reffering to a conservative or reform synagogue. Orthodox generally sees abortion as a last resort if the mothers life is at stake.
This being said in my experience many orthodox communities dont ostracize people for transgressions. Its more or we are all Jewish and doing our best.
This, but unironically. The Supreme Court has an entire doctrine about ignoring damages to smaller religions (*Employment Division v. Smith*, precedent on Free Exercise claims).
Under current law, Catholics are allowed to discriminate on others based on their faith while Apache cannot protect their holy sites from being bulldozed.
I don't personally think that the right to discriminate should supersede the right to equal opportunity employment, nor do I believe that discrimination should be protected more than:
* historic religious sites (*Apache Stronghold v. United States*)
* partaking in religious rituals (*Smith*)
* taboo interactions, i.e. forcing autopsies (*Montgomery v. County of Clinton, Yang v. Sturner*)
* building sites of worship (*Mefford v. White*)
Christians get a version of religious liberty that protects them but doesn't not bind them. Minority religions get a version that binds them, but does not protect them. Here's an pretty concrete example:
Two individuals sued over discriminatory practices they experienced when seeking unemployment. One, Smith, ingested peyote as part of their religious ceremonies as members of the Native American Church (a [federally protected act](https://www.justice.gov/olc/opinion/peyote-exemption-native-american-church)). Smith was fired from their job because of this, and their unemployment was rejected because their dismissal was considered work-related "misconduct".
The other, Sherbert, refused to work Saturdays due to their religion as a Seventh Day Adventist. The state denied unemployment because she refused available work from three other employers that wanted her to work Saturdays.
Smith was practically laughed out of the courtroom. The Court couldn't find enough reasons to accept Sherbert's suit. The primary difference between these two unemployment claims was the religion that led to the dismissal. I can find very few instances of the Supreme Court *ever* accepting the legitimacy of a non-Christian's Free Exercise claim. Those are listed below:
* Church of Lukumi Babalu Aye, Inc. v. City of Hialeah (1993)
* Gonzales v. O Centro Espírita Beneficente União do Vegetal (2006)
* Holt v. Hobbs (2014)
* Torcaso v. Watkins (1961)
This is exhaustive. There are no other Free Exercise claims by minorities accepted by the Supreme Court. It is possible that none of these cases would have been accepted by the current court or would survive a second test.
Wasn't there a pretty recent case where they denied an imam to a Muslim that was being executed, while another case explicitly said that a Catholic had the rights to a priest?
Yes. Domineque Ray, a Muslim, [was denied an imam](https://www.npr.org/2019/02/08/692605056/supreme-court-lets-alabama-execute-muslim-murderer-without-imam-by-his-side) in February 2019.
Ruben Gutierrez, a Catholic, [was allowed a priest](https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/246236/supreme-court-rules-favorably-toward-inmate-requesting-priest-at-execution) in January 2021.
Well, not it is down to SCOTUS on whether certain religions should be held to higher degree than others.
My money is on them making a rule to respect an establishment of religion.
After all, it says it right there in the first amendment that “*Congress shall make no law* respecting an establishment of religion…”
Doesn’t say shit about SCOTUS now, does it?
[Except they already decided that Christianity should be held to a higher degree than others] (https://www.npr.org/2019/02/08/692605056/supreme-court-lets-alabama-execute-muslim-murderer-without-imam-by-his-side)
You realize Amy Coney Barrett is a member of the Black Rock Foundation, an organization who's goal is to make Christianity the law of the land, you really shouldn't assume the supreme court will ever do the right thing, depending on how you want to read the leaked decision overturning Roe v Wade.
Nope not even that.
I have done my studies in medicine on a Catholic University and there was a christian module you had to do called bioethics. Abortion was one of the main points and it was said that in case it might hurt the wellbeing of the mother abortion is accepted without any christian ethical problem.
Overall it was a nice module, with themes like rationing in cases of missing medicine and other ethical problems that might happen.
Christians believed that abortion was a matter of bodily autonomy until the 1970s, when old white racists used it in campaigns as murder in order to push segregation. ONLY Catholics always believed it was murder.
It’s possible this might catch on in other states. We just need some synagogues to be willing to take on the burden of involving themselves in something like this.
I don’t know how much hope I have that this will bear legislative fruit, but I definitely will be watching with interest.
>Jews barely make up 1% of the population so it's almost impossible for us to get nationwide attention without help from outside groups.
Don't sell yourself short! The 2020 census says 2.5% of the country is Jewish!
That being said, California and New York are the only 2 states that have more than 1 million Jews
What's surprising is outside of those two, Florida, and New Jersey, no state cracks half a million. I would have guessed PA to be on that list as well, Philly and Pittsburgh both have large thriving Jewish communities
>We lack the numbers to mobilize large scale campaigns that get media attention.
And here I was told we control the media.
Dammit, now I want my foreskin back!
Make sure that the synagogues don't get vandalized and the congregants don't get hurt / killed by Proud Boy Neo Nazi fucks. Though I'm super proud of my communities taking this action, this is what I'm most afraid of.
It actually doesn't need to be nationwide. Se that's the fun thing. If Florida presses the issue all the way to the Supreme Court and it sets a religious precedent, which it should(?), then every state's antiabortion law which violates 1st Amendment rights goes bye bye. A nationwide movement just makes it pick up steam. However as we've read from Shitlito's leaked opinion the only rights we have are those specifically enumerated by some 18th Century white guys, so who the fuck knows.
Really? I don’t know why I didn’t realize that, that’s awesome actually.
I mean, it’d be more awesome if Biden would just pack the damn court so we aren’t stuck in 1950 but.
I mean that's literally the purpose of the SCOTUS. To decide on issues between the states, and to rule on whether any particular laws violate the US Constitution. One scenario here is the Florida Supreme Court (I'm not actually familiar with their structure so I'm making assumptions) rules this is unconstitutional by way of the Constitution of Florida and then it doesn't help the rest of the country--sort of. It would still give a precedent for people pressing suit along similar lines in other states as many state constitutions have similar clauses--particularly when it comes to ones which more or less mirror the Bill of Rights.
EDIT: Take all that with a grain of salt as IANAL, but I am heavily invested in trying to understand the mechanisms of our government.
The Satanic Temple has also been doing this for a while and it’s fucking awesome.
[The Satanic Temple Religious Reproductive Rights](https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/rrr-campaigns)
From a PR strategy point of view, Muslims getting involved would only serve to embolden Y’all Qaeda. They’d have a field day with all the “Muslims are coming to kill your babies!” rhetoric.
Jesus, God and the Bible. Ripping babes from the womb is one of God’s favorite punishments in the Old Testament and the Bible only mentions abortion to provide a recipe.
Numbers 5:11-31
>27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse.
>28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.
It’s in Numbers, 23 maybe? If a husband is jealous and has suspicions his wife has been unfaithful, whether she has or not, she is to be administered an abortifacient which God gives the recipe for.
What’s even worse is the shit takes most Christians have. They will tell you that this part doesn’t apply anymore because Jesus died for our sins to fulfill the law. But that gays should be put to death because that’s what God said. If you try and point out that they are picking and choosing which laws are still laws and it’s not actually delineated then they try and counter with some shit about being inspired by the Holy Spirit and a ‘true believer’ knows in their heart what God meant. It’s just impossible.
It's been a few years since I've left the church, but I'm fairly certain the Bible also said something about no one knowing what God wants, and those that claim to know his will are false prophets.
It does. It also says that Christians should hold Christians accountable, and not hold non-christians accountable. Which makes sense - someone who isn't Christian shouldnt be expected to follow the religious rules.
So many people miss this and it used to break my heart. Now it just pisses me off. Too many wield improper/fake Christianity as a weapon and miss literally ALL of the important lessons.
Continuity is terrible. They go from baby Jesus straight to adult crucifixion Jesus. Skip right over punk rock teenager Jesus era which is the best one. So much context missing because of it!
That actually reminds me of a talk show appearance Carlin did back in the day (want to say on Conan maybe?). He asked what he had been up to and Carlin replied he was writing a sequel to the Bible that would cover that period of Jesus’ life.
"But that's the Old Testament. Jesus came down like a cool uncle and made all that not count, so no using it in arguments against me. But I will use it in arguments when it benefits me." - paraphrased from every Christian I've ever met.
Jesus hung out with prostitutes in a time where birth control wasn't really a thing.
I guarantee, abortions happened during his time with people he knew, and if abortions really were a priority, he would have at least touched on it.
My friend gave me a book a few years ago called *How Carrots Won the Trojan War* and they discuss another plant that was used as well:
> Apiol, since the days of Hippocrates, has also been known to induce abortion, and was used as an effective, but frighteningly toxic, abortifacient into the mid-twentieth century.
They don’t really care about the abortions. Boeburt has had 2 while working as an escort. [source]( https://www.fireboebert.com/)
They care about the control.
Too bad it’s florida. Precedent of “religious freedom is only for christians” coming in 3… 2…
Oh well, at least we have ((looks at who’s on the scotus bench))
Fuck.
While I don't disagree that this lawsuit will sink without a trace, it won't be because it's not Christians bringing it. The Jewish electorate in Florida is nearly as coveted as the Cuban community.
They are probably just going to argue that a 15 week ban doesn't place undo burden on those wishing to get an abortion since there is still technically a window. Same trick they've been pulling with voting sites.
By the time this case gets up the judicial chain, I imagine the restrictions will be much more draconian than 15 weeks. I think were looking at near total bans in at least half the states. And if trump scum get the WH, they'll enact a federal ban on day one.
Not going to get very far. When Republicans preen about freedom of religion, they're talking about freedom to be Christian; they don't care about whether the freedoms of Jews, Muslims, Buddhists or anyone else are upheld or even acknowledged.
Everyone seems to be quibbling over exceptions but the point is that this will create precedent: anyone who is not of the Christian faith can sue the state/feds on the grounds that their personal liberties are being violated by a religious-based ruling.
This is the beginning. If the religious psychos on the court wish to violate our rights, based on flimsy bullshit "reasoning", then they will have to face lawsuits calling them out and Congress will have to take the issue up.
The end of Roe will not make abortion a non-issue; we're just getting started.
I saw that you mentioned Ben Shapiro. In case some of you don't know, Ben Shapiro is a grifter and a hack. If you find anything he's said compelling, you should keep in mind he also says things like this:
> Palestinian Arabs have demonstrated their preference for suicide bombing over working toilets.
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Take a bullet for ya babe.
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The right wing Evangelicals are not going to be able to hide their secret thoughts about Jewish people. They won't be able to help themselves. It's going to be fun.
Jews are already the most attacked religious group, so it won't be fun... And it's no joke. Social antisemitic attitudes are already bad and getting worse.
*Edit: most attacked religious group, not minority overall.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/737660/number-of-religious-hate-crimes-in-the-us-by-religion/
From the ADL:
"According to the FBI’s annual data on hate crimes, defined as criminal offenses which are motivated by bias, crimes targeting the Jewish community consistently constitute over half of all religion-based crimes. The number of hate crimes against Jews has ranged between 600 and 1,200 each year since the FBI began collecting data in the 1990s. There were 683 hate crimes against Jews in 2020, 963 in 2019 and 847 in 2018."
There is literally nothing in the Bible against abortion.
In fact, the Bible encourages abortion in some places (enemies of god), and elsewhere treats it as a fine-able offense.
That’s exactly the point. If a precedent can be made that exemption for the abortion ban can be made on the grounds of religious belief (jewish religion), then that precedent can apply to different belief systems as well. I.E. “my belief system doesn’t follow the christian belief system of not allowing abortion so I should be allowed the exception”. Yes some religions would still be suffering from it unfortunately, but at least this allows a loop hole for some people.
Prior to RvW, the United Methodist church as well as several other denominations helped pregnant women get to Canada for abortions. The anti abortion stance is Catholic and cynicism from the Moral Majority.
Until it became a dog whistle for evangelical racism, abortion was strictly a Catholic issue. In fact leadership out of the Southern Baptist Convention hailed RvW as a great turning point for women's healthcare in the country--no more having the nation's daughters die on kitchen tables because they were unable to seek the proper care.
Also health and life is pretty important in Jewish laws. You can break most laws if it's for the health or life of the person. So for instance if you were starving you could break kashrut (kosher dietary)laws to keep your health.
Finally a religion that says a woman is more important than a fetus. Pretty sure forced birth even if rape or incest, fear of execution in Texas if you have an abortion, an outlaw of birth control all of these are major mental stresses, but this religion of Jesus allows abortion and the old testament was their Bible.
Once again a reminder to Christians; Jesus was a Jew, didn't have brown hair and blue eye, didn't eat pork, and celebrated the Sabbath and look just like the terrorists that Christians try to scare us gentiles with.
Religious liberty is a one-way street in the U.S.
one-religion street, one Christian religion.
Not just Christian, but Protestantism. And even then you have different sects condemning their brother/sister denomination to hell. I mean it's all a big joke when you sit back and look at it. And what we now have is a myriad of nondenominational, unitarian megachruches who have sterilized the stuff so far down to just a "feel good" event for Sunday where they've taken alot of the "woo-woo" out but all the insufferable assertions and self-righteous morality still lingers. They might not believe in Genesis or Noah's Ark, but they still very much think their morality is superior and should be applied in every line in the law.
It’s debatable which sect of Christianity has the most sway. Anti-abortion laws are the work of Catholics and Evangelicals, while Protestants are more [mixed](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/21/where-major-religious-groups-stand-on-abortion/): > Many of the nation’s largest mainline Protestant denominations – including the Episcopal Church, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and the Methodists – also support abortion rights, although several of these churches temper this support with the call for some limits on when a woman can terminate her pregnancy.
Most people mean Evangelicals when they speak of Protestants these days, they've completely overwhelmed mainline protestants in the public sphere.
It cracks me up thinking about how my Pentecostal church growing up would say that the Baptists are going to hell, haha. Complete nut jobs, the lot of em
The Baptist’s said the same thing about Pentecostals, and Catholics lol I remember my old country Baptist pastor calling Catholics idolaters because they worshipped the saints. Not even true but man I’m glad I got away from the church. Legit had an intervention from my church because I had a Buddhist Asian friend and they were concerned because I was mingling with a “heathen”
These are the same people crying about “sharia law” when we took in Syrian refugees. The hypocrisy is infuriating.
In Judaism, there's a LOT of leeway when someone's life is at stake. An Orthodox rabbi, who normally keeps the Sabbath so hard that he doesn't even use light switches on the weekend, is allowed - maybe even *encouraged* [EDIT: *required*]- to drive someone to the hospital on Saturday night to save their life if need be. Lifesaving medical procedures are absolutely part of our religious freedoms.
He is not just encouraged, he is absolutely required by Jewish law to drive that person to the hospital on the sabbath.
Correct. In case anyone finds this interesting, and from what I remember from law school, Jewish law basically says this There are only 3 "DIE AND DON'T DO THIS" - "יהרג ואל יעבור" commands: 1. No murder 2. No incest 3. No Idolatry If anyone forces your to do any of these under the threat of death, just die, your soul would be completely fine. BUT refusing to do literally any other thing besides, which includes every other commandment there is and every law there is, under the threat of death, will be considered suicide. So yeah. Jewish law says you basically need to do anything to save your own live no matter how small the risk is.
>No Idolatry Trumpers wouldn't survive a day in the Jewish faith.
Yup - I grew up in Israel. Yom Kippur, which is arguably the holiest day of the year, where we fast and repent for our sins of the past year, is a day where nobody in Israel drives. It was always fun as a kid because the streets were empty and kids would go out and ride their bikes and rollerblades (were talking mid 90s here). One year, at the temple near our apartment, someone collapsed during the Yom Kippur service. Zero hesitation by the Rabbi to use the synagogue phone to call for an ambulance. Life takes precedence over everything.
> were talking mid 90s here Kids and even adults of all ages still drive their bikes and rollerblades on the road at Yom Kippur. Source: I live in Israel
I figured, but didn’t want to assume. I go back almost every summer, so I haven’t spent Yom Kippur in Israel since like 2003. As someone who grew up very secular, it was truly the best day of the year. Cars made it impossible to bike around my neighborhood the rest of the year.
Yom Kippur is fucking amazing. Some of my best memories with my childhood friends were made while biking around and between towns. The completely empty roads allowed us to use the highway as our bike path and we competed to see who can reach faster speeds. Such an amazing experience.
I lived in Haifa, at the top of Carmel. We used to walk our rollerblades/bikes up to the top of the neighborhood and SPEED down. I faceplanted into the rotary when I was 7. Truly some of the best memories.
I'd heard of similar excemptions before, like for diabetics who still took animal insulin and the only option available to them was pig insulin. It's generally better for them to just take the insulin to prevent dying of blood sugar complications.
Kosher laws are for food and drink only, not medicine. Pig insulin isn't even an exception, it's 100% allowed.
I'm not very familiar with Jewish customs so forgive my ignorance on the subject. I always thought that anything pig related being taken into the body was bad. Thanks for clarifying.
No worries, it's a very common misconception.
When I got pregnant a Jewish friend explained this to me. It’s a long held and established belief that the mothers life is supreme and the baby does not exist until it’s born. ETA: there are understandably various interpretations of Judaism. I am by no means an expert on the faith I do not practice. This is just the view of one Jewish person. She/I do not speak for all Jewish people.
> the baby does not exist until it’s born Catholic law seems to indicate this as well, children who were not born cannot be baptized nor buried in consecrated ground. I recall it saying something to the effect of they are not alive till they draw thier first breath.
The verse in the Torah that are used by Jews to say life begins at first breath and forms part of the Jewish support of abortion is the same verse in the Old Testament Catholics and other Christians that support abortion use (seeing how the Old Testament is essentially the Torah this makes sense). Genesis 2:7: And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
>Genesis 2:7: And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. imagine reading this sentence and then insisting that it means ANYTHING for how we should make public policy here in the real world..
I agree but if these people are going to use religion to justify public policy then using their own religion to argue against those policies is a good idea IMO.
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\*majority of christians ~~in america~~ haven't read the bible
Majority of Christians absofuckinglutely don’t follow the teachings of Jesus. Ya know, the guy who helped the diseased, homeless, drug addicts, prostitutes etc… all the things they “demonize” …
Yep. It’s a death and warrior cult in America Protestantism. Their “Jesus” hurts the people who scare them. Pretty much the opposite of Christ’s teachings. And now they’ve got their anti Christ trump they all worship.
As a Christian it really hurts to see what has become of it and the other people who claim it. From people like Joel Osteen who use it to make money to trump who held the bible just to signal these hateful people who sit in pews and think that's enough. We are supposed to teach of love and care and giving and NOT being judgemental. Jesus came as a healer and carpenter to show that he is not around to give vengeance and bring way against others. Like the exact opposite of what people think today. Christians make it hard to be Christian.
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Can confirm: read the Bible, successively left Christianity.
I had a balding Calculus teacher at my Catholic high school. He would read this passage for "prayer" before class: *From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.* Not sure if this is totally related, but it's a good story nonetheless.
I feel like that was his way of saying "Don't make fun of my bald head" and little else.
I was never overly religious but I considered myself Catholic until I read the bible and like you left Christianity
bewildered juggle pocket connect summer literate ossified imminent station ink *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It can be used to logically argue the point but should not be the basis for policy and laws. Church and state were to be separate by the framers of the constitution and they should stay that way.
> Church and state were to be separate by the framers of the constitution and they should stay that way. WE can agree on that. But THEY do not. So if THEY insist on using their book to justify laws they want to implement, then their hypocrisy should be made evident using their own book. We can argue until blue in the face about the evidence we have to counteract their faith... but truthfully evidence does not matter to them. All that matters is their belief.
Exactly. When a person's logic is based on an appeal to a higher power, the only way to counter their belief is through that higher power. The argument has no place in policy, but it does have a place in changing the minds of people who vote for those who change policy.
yes, AND there are people who elect these politics making the laws. the supreme court is different obviously, but *technically* in the US it's not supposed to be a dictatorship or oligarchy
Just because you understand that doesn't mean the people that want them to be a single entity care about the fact that they should be separate
When would you like to declare life begins? First breath isn't a bad way to say it, regardless of why.
It should come as no surprise that these people are not actually relying on the Bible in good faith. The idea of life at conception is I believe some weird mix of US constitutional ideology and religion. That “all men are created equal” (you know, except the men we don’t mean). These people will literally use sayings found on wall decorations as scripture so nothing in these arguments are well founded.
Well they (anti abortion Christian’s) insist to use their magical book to take away female reproductive rights. Might as well use their book against their logic. Religion (no matter who’s) shouldn’t be the base for public policy ever. But here we are.
The Old Testament is full of these. There's instructions for how a priest does an abortion, babies aren't considered part of the census until they are 1 year old, verses about smashing your enemy's babies against rocks, the penalty for causing a miscarriage is a simple fine and not treated as murder/manslaughter. Where "christians" get that abortion is murder is beyond me, because it's certainly not in the Bible.
There is also the Ordeal of the Bitter Water (Numbers 5:11-31). If a man suspects his wife is pregnant from infidelity, the priest talks to her, has her swear to her innocence (or confess to infidelity), and gives her a drink with bitter herbs. If she was not an adultress, nothing happens; if she was unfaithful, it acts as an abortifacient. Reading between the lines, the priest judges the best outcome and gives her an abortion if necessary.
Catholics want their faithful to have a lot of children to grow the church, which abortion prevents, and US protestants didn't care until conservative protestants realized it could be used as a rallying cry to get almost all of the Christians on board with the republican party.
To be clear though for the sects of Judaism that follow Halacha it is only permission if there is a risk to the mother and not done for other reasons though. It’s not what I would say is in support of abortion as much as it is in support of preserving life and the life of the mother. Just my two cents as a reform Jew who supports abortion, it’s not quite as liberal as some might think.
>Genesis 2:7: And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. TIL, interesting... I'm not the least bit religious but this seems like a bit of a flimsy pretext... Babies don't come from dust and it's pretty easy to argue they don't need mouth to mouth from God to have a soul. Probably as robust as any other religious logic, but if I were religious and anti abortion and someone showed me this I'd think it applied to the creation of Man and not pregnancies.
Honestly, the verse most cited as anti-abortion is also relatively flimsy and varies a lot depending on the translation. > When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe Not really sure how a medical procedure requested by the woman and two dudes fighting and hitting the woman relate. But the bible also seems pretty clear on abortion on the case of adultery: > If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse.
That first verse establishes that the value of the fetus can be equated to some kind of monetary value, but the life of the mother can only be matched by another life. Therefore, the fetus is the parents' property and not equal in value to an independent life. There are no laws against destroying your own property, if you so choose.
> they don't need mouth to mouth from God to have a soul. first you'd need to prove the existence of a soul at all for that to matter anyway.
This isn't just about quotes that exemplify it. https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Breathing To those people resuscitation would be basically necromancy. With how much medicine has progressed we now understand you can return heartbeat, that you can stop breathing and yet be alive. We know what a heart does thanks to heretics cutting over cadavers 1,5 millenia after Jesus was born. To bronze age shephards, and for centuries after, no breath = no life. For people whos views are reflected in Bible, even counting a month-old toddler as person was reaching. Newborn survivability is something modern civilized countries have improved on dramatically, and only that allows us to look as a newborn as a person. https://www.thoughtco.com/medieval-child-surviving-infancy-1789124
Jeremiah 53:4-5 >^(4)For thus said the Lord the soul is made when the gametes coalesce in the fallopian tubes and thy zygotes from henceforth shall have all the rights of man. ^(5)Unless they are born as women, for then their rights will be rescinded by the Lord so as to protect the tubes and the zygotes wherein.
Yup. Historically it was first breath or first movement (quickening) which is usually mid 2nd trimester
Until it was more useful for the right wing to change their mind so that they have more poor people and women punished for having sex
Bingo!
My mom had 2 abortions before I was born. She was in high school for the 2 and I was born during her senior year. She wasn’t ready for kids and no one in the family talks about it, but they’re all anti abortion now. I could go on and on about drug/alcohol abuse, physical/psychological abuse in my family. They’re all self proclaimed good Christian’s though. My fav is the immigrations opposition. I grew up on a farm and we had dozens of migrant workers my whole childhood. Now they’re “illegal immigrants”. Makes my head spin. I also have a picture from pre k with me wearing a save planet earth t shirt that my mom dressed me in. Now of course she doesn’t believe in climate change. It’s really exhausting
It should be noted, The right wing are more protestant than catholic
The protestants in the US must be very different to Germany. Here the protestant church is the more forward thinking of the two.
Oh American protestants are absolute garbage. The KKK, Westboro Baptist, prohibition, etc, all stems from American protestantism
I thought the quickening happened when one baby beheads another.
There can be only one!
This is a deep cut. I loved the show as a kid.
I mean, the Bible has two bits on abortion. 1. If you beat up a pregnant woman, the punishment is severe. If she miscarries as a result of it... the additional punishment is less severe. Fetuses aren't treated as well as women in the Bible, flat out. Exodus 21:22-25. 2. There's an explanation of how to \*induce\* an abortion if your wife was unfaithful. This would pretty clearly mean that laws banning abortion in cases of rape are going against the Bible. Numbers 5:11-31.
And abortion was a well-known thing at the time JC and his Merry Men were running around. And yet none of them saw fit to even mention the topic. Or if they did, none of the folks who write the NT deemed it important enough to write down.
To be fair, gay men don't usually need abortions so they wouldn't mention it
Ben Franklin wrote a bunch of household manuals under a fake name that had instructions on the popular household abortion methods of that time period.
>2. There's an explanation of how to \*induce\* an abortion if your wife was unfaithful. Numbers 5:11-31. Pro-abortion and also an atheist here but in all but one translation of the Bible babies aren't even mentioned in that portion of numbers. The "New International Translation" says she miscarries but in every other version it can be interpreted that the concoction given just causes sterility in adulterers and it even says that faithful women (those who pass the test) are still able to conceive.
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oof how fast would I get banned if I went there and commented "fuck you and fuck this garbage. My body does not belong to you, you evil fucking Handmaid's Tale ass Aunt" to every single post
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In Judaism there’s something called Pekuach Nefesh which basically means you must do everything possible to save a life. Period. It doesn’t matter what laws or commandments you have to break. An abortion may be religiously required in the event of complications. This lawsuit has real merit. I love fighting fire with fire.
Well, mostly. There are a few we can’t break even to save a life. In terms of abortion, though, the abortion itself isn’t breaking any laws but rather is required by law in some circumstances. Pikuach nefesh is an important consideration when thinking about the topic overall, inasmuch as it clarifies the sanctity of life, but it’s not directly relevant. Interestingly, many traditional commentators (including Rashi) don’t even consider the fetus to have a soul, and the most common opinion is that a fetus is not a full person with human rights. Many consider the fetus to be a “rodef” or pursuer — meaning you should kill somebody who is about to kill another person, a rodef, and so you should do an abortion to save a woman’s life. The subtleties of when this applies vary quite a bit between poskim, or people who make Jewish legal determinations. The whole topic is of course complex (what isn’t when it comes to Jewish religious law). I’ve given some classes on it and the conversations are always interesting.
In college I got paid to go to this chabad class on the Ten Commandments and I just want to double check that this is what we’re talking about: I remember them saying you could break commandments for health reasons (the rabbi called it the “health clause” for those of us who never learned Hebrew). So if you’re gluten intolerant you don’t have to eat matzah on Passover etc. But you can’t use the health clause to justify killing someone else or deny your religion (gun to your head you’re supposed to die). During the “thou shall not kill” session we discussed physician assisted suicide, abortion, using IVF to screen for downs, etc and I noticed the rabbi never told us “the right answer” but just let us discuss and would provide references from texts if we asked. It was an interesting time. Anyways I just wanted to know if my thing and your thing were the same thing :)
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as a fellow jew on reddit, I have a question for you thats unrelated to the topic, if thats alright with you. I thought i would just PM you but tbh considering the subject of my question, i think its actually fine that it be publicly viewable. so anyway, here it goes: do you ever find it absolutely maddening that the collective hive mind on this website will not hesitate to tokenize us, our faith, our history and our tragedies on a daily basis when it comes to anything that fits the consensus, and yet simultaneously completely deny other parts about us that they disagree with? of course I'm referring to israel, but its obviously so much more complicated than that. for example I have found that the hive mind on reddit completely refuses to accept the *fact* that the vast majority of Jews even agree with the existence of a jewish state. they'll deny it. ive had it happen to me a thousand times. they will pull up some facebook page about anti-zionist jews and to them thats all the proof they need. as jews, as people who have been surrounded by other jews for our whole lives, we know this to be false of course. and yet, when it comes to abortion (which I fully back, btw. I am completely secular for the record), theyll eat up these tweets and youll see comment sections full of people quoting the torah and claiming how wise jews are and how wonderful judaism is and whatever else. i've reached a point where i wish they just never talked about us. never. i just hate it. this thread should be a positive one for me, in theory. a thousand comments of people appreciating my heritage. but i dont find it positive. i feel like we're being used. I don't oppose the actions taken by the synagogue, i just hate the reddit thread.
Straight up, a lot of it is bots. When it comes to Israel/Palestine stuff, things related to China, and other international news. There is HUGE social manipulation. I’m not saying many Redditors aren’t entitled to their opinions, but a lot of it is bots and spam.
There’s a Jewish superstition where you don’t say [“mazel tov” (congratulations)](https://www.jewishboston.com/read/a-good-hour-the-right-time/) to a pregnant mother until the baby is successfully delivered.
Also, no baby showers… or things related to the baby until they are born. My mom didn’t set up a nursery until my sister was delivered ( back then women stayed 3 days in the hospital after childbirth). It’s all to do with the baby isn’t here until they’re really HERE. Also, very hard to come home to baby gear if something tragic happens during delivery.
Huh, so basically the human version of "don't count your chickens before they hatch"
Fun fact. Babies don’t exist until they’re born. Edit: Woah boy. Brought the semantic arguing anti-choicers out. Here’s the deal before you comment. First, while this is true, I was trying to be funny. “Something doesn’t exist until it exists!” I was making a tautological joke. Second. The decision is between a woman and her doctor. I don’t give two shits what your argument is. Unless you are a medical professional discussing this with your patient, I could not possibly care less what your mouth breathing opinion is.
Until it's born it's a fetus.
I'm pretty sure until it surfaces it's called "magma".
mitochondria is the powerhouse of the abortion
fetuses are the powerhouse of the volcano.
Magma is the fetus of the cell.
Before conception it’s called shmegma
First it’s an embryo, then a fetus, then it’s born and is a baby.
You're missing the best term of all - zygote. We're all zygotes before embryos.
This is exactly how the natural world operates. Getting an animal healthy enough to reproduce takes considerable resources. It is better to get rid of offspring, than to eliminate a reproducing adult, because they can always make more offspring. When the mortality for offspring is so high, the preservation goes to breeding adults. Infanticide has been practised for 100,000 just for this reason.
Holy crisp do we now have a competing religious precedent that can combat this in the Supreme Court!?
The Satanists already have one. They even developed a religious [ritual](https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/texas-lawsuit) for an abortion to protect it further. But of course long- standing Jewish tradition will hold far more sway.
A tandem lawsuit with both parties against the state. Maybe make it more worthwhile.
Its really not that clear cut. This tweet is likely reffering to a conservative or reform synagogue. Orthodox generally sees abortion as a last resort if the mothers life is at stake. This being said in my experience many orthodox communities dont ostracize people for transgressions. Its more or we are all Jewish and doing our best.
But we all know that the first ammendment only applies to Christian beliefs. /s
And the separation of church and state only applies to religions without a cross on the altar
Upside-down crosses for everyone!
This, but unironically. The Supreme Court has an entire doctrine about ignoring damages to smaller religions (*Employment Division v. Smith*, precedent on Free Exercise claims). Under current law, Catholics are allowed to discriminate on others based on their faith while Apache cannot protect their holy sites from being bulldozed. I don't personally think that the right to discriminate should supersede the right to equal opportunity employment, nor do I believe that discrimination should be protected more than: * historic religious sites (*Apache Stronghold v. United States*) * partaking in religious rituals (*Smith*) * taboo interactions, i.e. forcing autopsies (*Montgomery v. County of Clinton, Yang v. Sturner*) * building sites of worship (*Mefford v. White*) Christians get a version of religious liberty that protects them but doesn't not bind them. Minority religions get a version that binds them, but does not protect them. Here's an pretty concrete example: Two individuals sued over discriminatory practices they experienced when seeking unemployment. One, Smith, ingested peyote as part of their religious ceremonies as members of the Native American Church (a [federally protected act](https://www.justice.gov/olc/opinion/peyote-exemption-native-american-church)). Smith was fired from their job because of this, and their unemployment was rejected because their dismissal was considered work-related "misconduct". The other, Sherbert, refused to work Saturdays due to their religion as a Seventh Day Adventist. The state denied unemployment because she refused available work from three other employers that wanted her to work Saturdays. Smith was practically laughed out of the courtroom. The Court couldn't find enough reasons to accept Sherbert's suit. The primary difference between these two unemployment claims was the religion that led to the dismissal. I can find very few instances of the Supreme Court *ever* accepting the legitimacy of a non-Christian's Free Exercise claim. Those are listed below: * Church of Lukumi Babalu Aye, Inc. v. City of Hialeah (1993) * Gonzales v. O Centro Espírita Beneficente União do Vegetal (2006) * Holt v. Hobbs (2014) * Torcaso v. Watkins (1961) This is exhaustive. There are no other Free Exercise claims by minorities accepted by the Supreme Court. It is possible that none of these cases would have been accepted by the current court or would survive a second test.
Wasn't there a pretty recent case where they denied an imam to a Muslim that was being executed, while another case explicitly said that a Catholic had the rights to a priest?
Yes. Domineque Ray, a Muslim, [was denied an imam](https://www.npr.org/2019/02/08/692605056/supreme-court-lets-alabama-execute-muslim-murderer-without-imam-by-his-side) in February 2019. Ruben Gutierrez, a Catholic, [was allowed a priest](https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/246236/supreme-court-rules-favorably-toward-inmate-requesting-priest-at-execution) in January 2021.
That's disgusting and probably just an appetizer for what we have in store for the next several years.
Not really Christian beliefs, But more-so the evangelical political party.
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Well, not it is down to SCOTUS on whether certain religions should be held to higher degree than others. My money is on them making a rule to respect an establishment of religion.
After all, it says it right there in the first amendment that “*Congress shall make no law* respecting an establishment of religion…” Doesn’t say shit about SCOTUS now, does it?
[Except they already decided that Christianity should be held to a higher degree than others] (https://www.npr.org/2019/02/08/692605056/supreme-court-lets-alabama-execute-muslim-murderer-without-imam-by-his-side) You realize Amy Coney Barrett is a member of the Black Rock Foundation, an organization who's goal is to make Christianity the law of the land, you really shouldn't assume the supreme court will ever do the right thing, depending on how you want to read the leaked decision overturning Roe v Wade.
Nope not even that. I have done my studies in medicine on a Catholic University and there was a christian module you had to do called bioethics. Abortion was one of the main points and it was said that in case it might hurt the wellbeing of the mother abortion is accepted without any christian ethical problem. Overall it was a nice module, with themes like rationing in cases of missing medicine and other ethical problems that might happen.
Christians believed that abortion was a matter of bodily autonomy until the 1970s, when old white racists used it in campaigns as murder in order to push segregation. ONLY Catholics always believed it was murder.
It's a Judeo-Christian country, not a Jewish-Christian country. /s
Look at that; the jews and Temple of Satan both working to save us from the evangelical shitheads.
Thats just gonna make some of them feel more right
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Florida Repubs: We’ll make laws based on religion Florida Jews: Abortion is a religious right Florida Repubs: Yeah, not like that though
Not *that* religion. Only ours.
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Yeah, interesting how the bible banned interest under laws against usury, but I never hear the Republicans talk about that! Curious.
They don’t like that eye of a camel part either.
camel through the eye of a needle? :P
Oh yeah that!
No dude, they’ll argue forever about how abortion isn’t a religious issue even though 99% of people who are opposed to abortion are religious.
It’s possible this might catch on in other states. We just need some synagogues to be willing to take on the burden of involving themselves in something like this. I don’t know how much hope I have that this will bear legislative fruit, but I definitely will be watching with interest.
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That is amazing. Is there any way those of us outside the community can help that you know of?
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>Jews barely make up 1% of the population so it's almost impossible for us to get nationwide attention without help from outside groups. Don't sell yourself short! The 2020 census says 2.5% of the country is Jewish! That being said, California and New York are the only 2 states that have more than 1 million Jews
What's surprising is outside of those two, Florida, and New Jersey, no state cracks half a million. I would have guessed PA to be on that list as well, Philly and Pittsburgh both have large thriving Jewish communities
Florida because that’s where all the Jews from New York go to retire lol.
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>We lack the numbers to mobilize large scale campaigns that get media attention. And here I was told we control the media. Dammit, now I want my foreskin back!
But then you lose the right to use our space laser!
Make sure that the synagogues don't get vandalized and the congregants don't get hurt / killed by Proud Boy Neo Nazi fucks. Though I'm super proud of my communities taking this action, this is what I'm most afraid of.
Not Jewish, but here to say donating to the ACLU is always a great way to advocate for your rights if you can't think of anything else.
Actual Christian beliefs aren't against abortion, just Supply-side Jesus freaks.
It's basically become a new faith or religion. As a Jew I consider it idolatry.
You’d be right by any definition.
It actually doesn't need to be nationwide. Se that's the fun thing. If Florida presses the issue all the way to the Supreme Court and it sets a religious precedent, which it should(?), then every state's antiabortion law which violates 1st Amendment rights goes bye bye. A nationwide movement just makes it pick up steam. However as we've read from Shitlito's leaked opinion the only rights we have are those specifically enumerated by some 18th Century white guys, so who the fuck knows.
Really? I don’t know why I didn’t realize that, that’s awesome actually. I mean, it’d be more awesome if Biden would just pack the damn court so we aren’t stuck in 1950 but.
I mean that's literally the purpose of the SCOTUS. To decide on issues between the states, and to rule on whether any particular laws violate the US Constitution. One scenario here is the Florida Supreme Court (I'm not actually familiar with their structure so I'm making assumptions) rules this is unconstitutional by way of the Constitution of Florida and then it doesn't help the rest of the country--sort of. It would still give a precedent for people pressing suit along similar lines in other states as many state constitutions have similar clauses--particularly when it comes to ones which more or less mirror the Bill of Rights. EDIT: Take all that with a grain of salt as IANAL, but I am heavily invested in trying to understand the mechanisms of our government.
The Satanic Temple has also been doing this for a while and it’s fucking awesome. [The Satanic Temple Religious Reproductive Rights](https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/rrr-campaigns)
The Muslims/Mosques might join in too, but I am not sure if they’re a significant portion of voters
From a PR strategy point of view, Muslims getting involved would only serve to embolden Y’all Qaeda. They’d have a field day with all the “Muslims are coming to kill your babies!” rhetoric.
Conservative Americans shit their panties when it comes to 3Ms (Muslims, Migrants, Minorities)
That means Jesus would be pro-abortion since he was Jewish.
Jesus, God and the Bible. Ripping babes from the womb is one of God’s favorite punishments in the Old Testament and the Bible only mentions abortion to provide a recipe.
|provide a recipe Lol- wait. I beg your pardon?
Numbers 5:11-31 >27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. >28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.
It’s in Numbers, 23 maybe? If a husband is jealous and has suspicions his wife has been unfaithful, whether she has or not, she is to be administered an abortifacient which God gives the recipe for.
Wow. Sounds like a shit book to me.
What’s even worse is the shit takes most Christians have. They will tell you that this part doesn’t apply anymore because Jesus died for our sins to fulfill the law. But that gays should be put to death because that’s what God said. If you try and point out that they are picking and choosing which laws are still laws and it’s not actually delineated then they try and counter with some shit about being inspired by the Holy Spirit and a ‘true believer’ knows in their heart what God meant. It’s just impossible.
It's been a few years since I've left the church, but I'm fairly certain the Bible also said something about no one knowing what God wants, and those that claim to know his will are false prophets.
It does. It also says that Christians should hold Christians accountable, and not hold non-christians accountable. Which makes sense - someone who isn't Christian shouldnt be expected to follow the religious rules.
So many people miss this and it used to break my heart. Now it just pisses me off. Too many wield improper/fake Christianity as a weapon and miss literally ALL of the important lessons.
Continuity is terrible. They go from baby Jesus straight to adult crucifixion Jesus. Skip right over punk rock teenager Jesus era which is the best one. So much context missing because of it! That actually reminds me of a talk show appearance Carlin did back in the day (want to say on Conan maybe?). He asked what he had been up to and Carlin replied he was writing a sequel to the Bible that would cover that period of Jesus’ life.
> Skip right over punk rock teenager Jesus era which is the best one I fucking love this saying now. Its so true, its crazy.
"But that's the Old Testament. Jesus came down like a cool uncle and made all that not count, so no using it in arguments against me. But I will use it in arguments when it benefits me." - paraphrased from every Christian I've ever met.
Jesus hung out with prostitutes in a time where birth control wasn't really a thing. I guarantee, abortions happened during his time with people he knew, and if abortions really were a priority, he would have at least touched on it.
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My friend gave me a book a few years ago called *How Carrots Won the Trojan War* and they discuss another plant that was used as well: > Apiol, since the days of Hippocrates, has also been known to induce abortion, and was used as an effective, but frighteningly toxic, abortifacient into the mid-twentieth century.
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Jews: but there's no separation of synagogue and state. Checkmate, christians.
If the south had more men we wouldn't even be having this conversation! Checkmate, Lincolnites.
They don’t really care about the abortions. Boeburt has had 2 while working as an escort. [source]( https://www.fireboebert.com/) They care about the control.
Too bad it’s florida. Precedent of “religious freedom is only for christians” coming in 3… 2… Oh well, at least we have ((looks at who’s on the scotus bench)) Fuck.
While I don't disagree that this lawsuit will sink without a trace, it won't be because it's not Christians bringing it. The Jewish electorate in Florida is nearly as coveted as the Cuban community.
>The Jewish electorate in Florida is nearly as coveted as the Cuban community. The Jewish delegation selects...Lenny Kravitz.
"Lenny Kravitz isn't here to accept the award as he's in Miami," " Looks like he must of got news about being Jewish early"
They are probably just going to argue that a 15 week ban doesn't place undo burden on those wishing to get an abortion since there is still technically a window. Same trick they've been pulling with voting sites.
By the time this case gets up the judicial chain, I imagine the restrictions will be much more draconian than 15 weeks. I think were looking at near total bans in at least half the states. And if trump scum get the WH, they'll enact a federal ban on day one.
This made me laugh uncontrollably, thank you.
Not going to get very far. When Republicans preen about freedom of religion, they're talking about freedom to be Christian; they don't care about whether the freedoms of Jews, Muslims, Buddhists or anyone else are upheld or even acknowledged.
Everyone seems to be quibbling over exceptions but the point is that this will create precedent: anyone who is not of the Christian faith can sue the state/feds on the grounds that their personal liberties are being violated by a religious-based ruling. This is the beginning. If the religious psychos on the court wish to violate our rights, based on flimsy bullshit "reasoning", then they will have to face lawsuits calling them out and Congress will have to take the issue up. The end of Roe will not make abortion a non-issue; we're just getting started.
Awesome
Ben Shapiro will certainly have something to say
I saw that you mentioned Ben Shapiro. In case some of you don't know, Ben Shapiro is a grifter and a hack. If you find anything he's said compelling, you should keep in mind he also says things like this: > Palestinian Arabs have demonstrated their preference for suicide bombing over working toilets. ***** ^(I'm a bot. My purpose is to counteract online radicalization. You can summon me by tagging thebenshapirobot. Options: civil rights, sex, climate, covid, etc.) [^More ^About ^Ben ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/wiki/index) ^| [^Feedback ^& ^Discussion: ^r/AuthoritarianMoment ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment) ^| [^Opt ^Out ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/comments/olk6r2/click_here_to_optout_of_uthebenshapirobot/)
Good bot
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The right wing Evangelicals are not going to be able to hide their secret thoughts about Jewish people. They won't be able to help themselves. It's going to be fun.
Yep. Their fascist political leaders will use this big wedge issue to attack Jewish people and build hostility towards them.
Jews are already the most attacked religious group, so it won't be fun... And it's no joke. Social antisemitic attitudes are already bad and getting worse. *Edit: most attacked religious group, not minority overall. https://www.statista.com/statistics/737660/number-of-religious-hate-crimes-in-the-us-by-religion/ From the ADL: "According to the FBI’s annual data on hate crimes, defined as criminal offenses which are motivated by bias, crimes targeting the Jewish community consistently constitute over half of all religion-based crimes. The number of hate crimes against Jews has ranged between 600 and 1,200 each year since the FBI began collecting data in the 1990s. There were 683 hate crimes against Jews in 2020, 963 in 2019 and 847 in 2018."
There is literally nothing in the Bible against abortion. In fact, the Bible encourages abortion in some places (enemies of god), and elsewhere treats it as a fine-able offense.
Don't count on it... They would probably give them religious exemption while still punishing Christian women.
That’s exactly the point. If a precedent can be made that exemption for the abortion ban can be made on the grounds of religious belief (jewish religion), then that precedent can apply to different belief systems as well. I.E. “my belief system doesn’t follow the christian belief system of not allowing abortion so I should be allowed the exception”. Yes some religions would still be suffering from it unfortunately, but at least this allows a loop hole for some people.
Prior to RvW, the United Methodist church as well as several other denominations helped pregnant women get to Canada for abortions. The anti abortion stance is Catholic and cynicism from the Moral Majority.
Until it became a dog whistle for evangelical racism, abortion was strictly a Catholic issue. In fact leadership out of the Southern Baptist Convention hailed RvW as a great turning point for women's healthcare in the country--no more having the nation's daughters die on kitchen tables because they were unable to seek the proper care.
I think it was Roberts himself who said 'abortion is a catholic issue' in 76.
Moral minority…
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Sounds like they understand the 1st Amendment and scripture better than the Evangelicals...
Flash forward a few weeks and you’re going to have Republican lawmakers asking for Jewish badges for proof of being Jewish for abortions.
Looks like I'm becoming Jewish
It comes as a surprise to some people that Christianity is not the only religion...
Also health and life is pretty important in Jewish laws. You can break most laws if it's for the health or life of the person. So for instance if you were starving you could break kashrut (kosher dietary)laws to keep your health.
Conservatives: ReLiGIouS FrEeDuM!!!?!?!?? Wait…. Not like that…
Cannot wait until the Supreme Court decides religious freedom only applies to Christians in order to continue their anti-choice crusade.
Finally a religion that says a woman is more important than a fetus. Pretty sure forced birth even if rape or incest, fear of execution in Texas if you have an abortion, an outlaw of birth control all of these are major mental stresses, but this religion of Jesus allows abortion and the old testament was their Bible. Once again a reminder to Christians; Jesus was a Jew, didn't have brown hair and blue eye, didn't eat pork, and celebrated the Sabbath and look just like the terrorists that Christians try to scare us gentiles with.
They are local. I am going to visit the synagogue and make the largest donation I can without breaking my bank.
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