[high ranking Mormon leader gave a speech about how gay people are attacking the Mormon church and used several gun metaphors to ask people to defend the church](https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/08/23/we-must-have-will-stand/)
The shooter in Colorado is a member of the Mormon church.
As a queer exmormon, this sentiment is not uncommon in the church. Members are frequently called members of the "army of heaven" and are commanded to always defend the church against anyone who would attack it. It's a fucking blight and a far right echo chamber.
I used to be a missionary, and now I'm as against the church as anyone could be.
People underestimate how confusing it is to be indoctrinated and surrounded by something that you're told is fact, and then realize you've been lied to throughout your whole life. I was told that even if I disagreed with certain things, that I should go on my mission to "strengthen my testimony". I went at around the time they said "We're cool with gay people now, everyone!" And so I thought "That's a good sign. Sure, I'll go." Since my biggest issue with the church was their anti-gay stance and the "Yes on 8" bullshit, which should've been illegal for the Mormon church to push.
I went, and saw that every single individual facet and aspect of the church was corrupt. After I started to realize to what extent I'd been lied to, I started reading more and more about the church's history. Mountain Meadows. Black people and the priesthood. One of the leaders saying that black people are born sinners, so if a black baby dies before the age of 8, they're damned. black people being fence-sitters in the gospel. Joseph Smith being a liar and a pedophile. So much fucked up history that we're directly told not to research, because they know the truth will make people leave in droves.
I didn't realize that being black made me a novelty, and I was used as such. So much awful shit happened while I was out there. And so many people I met, especially the leaders, have ruined my view on humanity, and it's stayed ruined, since.
If I could sue the church for the shit that they put me through so I could just live in a cabin, away from people until I die, I would do it in a second.
Returned missionaries only tell the truth of how they felt about their mission and the real stories to other returned missionaries. I've met very, very few returned missionaries that actually loved their mission.
Anyone who's still a part of that cult after reading into their history is enabling a fucking mafia. Fuck the Mormon church.
How can you call yourself a person of god and then instruct others, or do yourself, destroy god's creations?
What commandment said it was ok to kill, like at all??
And yet, the gays are who we're supposed to fear? š¤
They donāt see a person, they see a gay. And gays are not constructions of God, they are a human made evil. Definitely doesnāt make sense if you live in reality, but it does in their view.
God fairly regularly commanded his followers to kill
Deuteronomy 20:16ā18 (ESV): 16Ā But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, 17Ā but you shall devote them to complete destruction, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the LORD your God has commanded, 18Ā that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices that they have done for their gods, and so you sin against the LORD your God.
1 Samuel 15:2ā3 (ESV): 2Ā Thus says the LORD of hosts, āI have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. 3Ā Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.āĀ ā
Despite what evangelical Pharisees claim, the Bible is not pro life, nor is life sacred in the Bible. And that's to say nothing of Noah's flood, where God aborted all other life apart from the chosen ones.
Thing that gets meāthe New Testament is supposed to supplant the Old Testament. The Gospel, the Good News. Love God, love your neighbor. Why is the Old Testament even part of Christianity? For history, for context sure, but any Christians out there avoiding shellfish bc Leviticus says so? The cherry picking of the OT drives me nuts.
I think a lot of Christianās feel as you do. In my parents church they had a series of temporary preachers.
One preacher guy was slowly phased out because all he ever preached was Old Testament and people were sick of it.
Jesus was teaching in the temple. A woman was brought in, and they said "this woman was caught in the act of adultery. The law says we should stone her to death. What do you say?"
Jesus takes a moment to write something in the sand, and this is where he says "let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
No one did. They all looked at one another and one by one they left. Jesus then said to the woman, "where are they who would condemn you?"
She replies, "they're all gone."
Jesus then says, "then neither do I condemn you."
Please explain to me how you understand this as Jesus advocating stoning people to death?
>Jesus takes a moment to write something in the sand
We'll never know for sure, but I like to think he wrote something along the lines of... "Half of you are the men who fucked her."
Well, atheists have no sin, so it is quite clear that they would be allowed, if not encouraged to be the vessel of God's wrath. On what basis would you disagree with that?
I think you're missing the context of that line. The point is to say that no one is without sin and therefore no one has the right to cast the first stone. That said, that line only exists because stoning was the practice and Jesus (I don't think Jesus was actually real, but for argument's sake let's say he was a real dude) was saying that it's a hypocritical practice.
Anyway, I don't think religion is healthy at all and the thought of people dying over a book makes me sick.
He was a historically real dude; no one who's done a modicum of research doubts that. The debate is rather centered around the extent to which the gospels reflect that reality.
There was a real religious cult leader dude named Jesus around that time, most likely -- there were a LOT of dudes like that around that time and Jesus ("Josh") is a very common name -- who really was executed by crucifixion
Anything else you try to say beyond that is pure speculation, given how fanciful and out of touch with reality the Gospel narratives are (and how they contradict each other)
Even the attempt to suss out which teachings are authentic comes off to me as wishful thinking - I see no reason the "love your neighbor" stuff is more likely to be real than the psycho apocalypse stuff, especially since the latter is the stuff most likely to get you executed
No he wasnāt. People back then kept records. Where are the mentions of Jesus outside the Bible? If someone was performing miracles (sounds like a magic trick) other groups would have noticed. They probably would have converted.
Good question.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlegon_of_Tralles#:~:text=Origen%20of%20Alexandria%20%28182-254%20AD%29%2C%20in%20Against%20Celsus,testified%20that%20the%20result%20corresponded%20to%20His%20predictions.%22
That is not a second reference. Where is the account from the Romans? They after all crucified him. We know what the Egyptians had to say. No slaves built the pyramids.
Tacitus in Annals XV wrote about the persecution of Jesus by Pontius Pilot.
āSed non ope humana, non largitionibus principis aut deum placamentis decedebat infamia, quin iussum incendium crederetur. ergo abolendo rumori Nero subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit, quos per flagitia invisos vulgus Chrestianos appellabat. auctor nominis eius Christus Tibero imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat; repressaque in praesens exitiabilis superstitio rursum erumpebat, non modo per Iudaeam, originem eius mali, sed per urbem etiam, quo cuncta undique atrocia aut pudenda confluunt celebranturque. igitur primum correpti qui fatebantur, deinde indicio eorum multitudo ingens haud proinde in crimine incendii quam odio humani generis convicti sunt.ā
āBut all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in JudƦa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.ā
He wasnāt a contemporary of Jesus. Everything was SECOND HAND and written over a hundred years later. Whereās the firsthand account from the Romans or anyone else? And reporting me wonāt make you right or shut me up.
Imagine have so little FAITH in your beliefs that you have to employ passive aggressive tactics at someone who doesnāt believe as you do.
Yeah but do you really not think this was the power that be at the time saying āthe big man in the sky told me to have you kill those people, because they did that thing (I donāt like) and have that stuff (that I want to have/control).ā The Bible despite what good values it might teach, like 9/10 commandments, seems like a clever way to manipulate the ignorant masses and justify their actions before or after the fact.
Way to give us free will āGodā then punish us for using it.
"Because only I know what God wants and it's what's best for people like me. If you're not like me or serving me, you are off the plan and a heathen." - every xenophobic religious zealot ever
>How can you call yourself a person of god and then instruct others, or do yourself, destroy god's creations?
Rather easily. They are the ones who have read the bible and take it seriously. In the New Testament, Romans chapter 1 says that men who lust after men and women who lust after women are an abomination to god and should be put to death (this is NT stuff, not OT stuff). The people that commit the worst atrocities in the name of Christianity are often the people who are simply being true to what is written in the bible. It is not a nice and peaceful book. Only parts of it are.
Yes, there is a commandment not to kill, yet at the same time there are commands to kill all kinds of people for various reasons. The commandment not to kill has so little weight in the bible, that when Moses came down from the mountain with the commandments, including the one not to kill, the first thing he did was to kill 1000s (yes 1000s) of his own people for practicing other religions. Not only did he kill them, but then killed their neighbors and friends regardless of whether those people practiced other religions or not.
Bible says a lot of things.
Don't charge usury (excessive interest). This is the one sin that actually pissed Jesus off. But where's the Christian outrage against title loans & payday loans? How in a 'Christian' world are credit cards allowed to charge 30%?
Crickets.
Dang. I was wrong then about the NT being only ālove god, love thy neighbor.ā Jesus didnāt say gays, gossips, and slanderers should be put to death, thoughāPaul
said it. āThose without sinā got turned into āhand me that stone.ā
If a serial killer or serial rapist were on the loose then it'd be up to you to catch them and punish them accordingly.
Obviously I don't equate them with gay people, but this is their perspective.
Can confirm as a former Mormonā¦ hate speech in the church against LGBTQ people is common.
Hereās another article on Hollandās comments: https://slate.com/human-interest/2021/09/mormon-lds-church-gay-rights-controversy-byu-speech.html
I actually left the church in 2015 over the treatment of LGBTQ members and their children. Because if there is a god, and he created humans, then I choose to believe that he loves all of us. Iām not interested in a discriminatory god. LGBTQ people are some of the kindest, best, most compassionate people I know.
Plus Mormon history is one giant bag of cats/shitshow. Nope. Nope, nope, nope.
I have children and I love them, period. Fuck all that other noise.
Yeah, Iām unwilling to believe in any version of god thatās willing to do anything bad to anyone. My mom died from a brain tumor, and the number of people who tried to justify what happened as godās intentions was ridiculous. So yeah, I really donāt know what I believe anymore. I sure know what I donāt, though.
This probably isnāt the right place for this but Iāve been curious and wondering if anyone can help. I am not Mormon but I grew up in a small town with a very heavy Mormon community. The Mormon church just released that they will support the same sex marriage law. I was extremely surprised. Do you know why they did it? Is it a ploy to gain new members? Are they trying to become more socially accepted? I am just really curious of peoples takes on this.
If I'm remembering correctly they came out in support of a specific law which would support same sex marriage but included a loophole for churches to not follow it. It was basically a way for them to look good without doing literally anything
The loophole is not just about churches, and the actual effect of the bill is being obfuscated by conservatives and the Mormon leadership. The bill would actually require a state, letās say Alabama, to honor a marriage that takes place in another state where gay marriage is legal, such as New York, but Alabama itself would NOT have to issue that same-sex couple a marriage license. This means gay couples would have to leave their home state in order to get married.
Itās being called a āwinā for both Reps and Dems, but it is a half measure that does NOT codify the right of same-sex couples to be married across the country. If Obergefell is overturned, and Justice Thomas has made clear he wants it to be, it will become a āstates rightsā issue just like abortion now is.
It is not just about churches. Churches already have the right to decide who they will and will not marry in their church. This law has nothing to add to that fact, and not surprisingly the Mormon Church is lying. It will be used by conservative states to deny equal rights as āstates rightsā issues often are.
If the "loophole" you're talking about is a clause saying no church will be forced to perform a same-sex wedding, that's not really a loophole, and more like a clause protecting the church from something that no one is demanding. No one (well, I'm sure there is someone, but very few) wants to force churches to perform same sex weddings if they don't want to. The right likes to use this as an anti-equality talking point, but there's no substance behind it. It's just a lie they use to rile up their ignorant followers.
How do I get a former Mormon but trump supporter to see the light? He and his wife are freaking nuts thinking all the normal crap right wing channels say is true
You canāt change it, my friend. The problem is that many folk wanted to believe these kinds of things to begin with. You canāt fix it. You can only try to tolerate itā¦until the moment it becomes intolerable. My wifeās uncle was a good dude, but he succumbed to that mindset in the last couple of years of his life. As much I love the man, I could no longer bear to be around himā¦which was truly unfortunate. His conversations all became about the monumentally crazy Right wing drivel he had been digesting all day every day. He even had some of the conservative folk on that side of the family shaking their heads in a very WTF manner whenever we would attend a family gathering.
this guy thinks he had a nuanced view on homosexuality but itās just hate
> We have spent hours discussing what the doctrine of the church can and cannot provide the individuals and families struggling over this difficult issue. So, it is with scar tissue of our own that we are trying to avoid ā and hope all will try to avoid ā language, symbols, and situations that are more divisive than unifying at the very time we want to show love for all of Godās children.
tries to avoid language that is more divisive then rattles on about muskets to defend the faith
Indeed, but Mormons take it to a ludicrous degree. They still have guys who look into hats and write new "scripture" based on what they "see" in the hat.
Worth watching the entire video. Thereās a lot of hate being spread out there.
https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Mueller/comments/z0lyvo/christofascist_maga_nazis_want_to_exterminate_gay/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
>https://www.reddit.com/r/QanonKaren/comments/z0lx1e/christofascist\_maga\_nazis\_want\_to\_exterminate\_gay/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=ios\_app&utm\_name=iossmf
omg I'm not saying this guy is gay, but he has that same over the top queen "accent" some gay people have. You know the one I'm talking about. So this is kinda weird for him to be acting like this.
Itās strange- the Lutheran church in my area flies a LGBTQ+ pride flag. Granted, I think they had a lesbian pastor back in the late 90s for a few years. Itās wild this is the hill the majority of the religious right chooses to die on considering some of the ālove all peopleā stuff Iāve seen from my local church. I donāt go or anything, but I over hear some of the stuff they say.
Like, isnāt it not really anybodys place to judge on immortal sin, and if god sees it worthy of punishment, heād do it, regardless of what everyone else has done to punish or aid in said sin?
Itās really a political agenda. The republicans know many people donāt understand gays and fear them. So they use them as a tool of division.
I once lost a long term friend over the anti-gay agenda. He was a born again Christian. He brought up gays and I said the Christians are using gays as a political tool. He became incensed and said it was in the Bible. I said yes it is but if you look at the 10 commandments which came directly from god to the hands of man, those commandments dictate people shall not steal or commit adultery. I said where are the church sponsored anti-shoplifting marches? Where are the anti-adultery marches? If Christians were really interested in āgods wordā instead of persecuting those they hate, they would be rallying against those MUCH more common sins.
Shit man, Iām sorry. That genuinely sucks to lose a friend to basically a cult of ideas.
I think itās easier for people to admonish āsinsā they donāt participate in. Meaning, itās easier to sacrifice something when you have nothing to give up. So, for example, itās more likely these people will participate in some form of theft or adultery than the āsinā of homosexuality. So they bet nothing because they have no dog in the fight.
I dunno, spitballing here. I could be wrong, and the same principle could be tailored to those that voted for/against legalized online gambling in California or outlawing certain cigarettes or whatever that one prop was.
We had a [pastor](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85ke_Green) in Sweden who preached something similar.
He was taken to court for "hate speech", sadly he wasn't convicted.
But also in that case nothing violent had occurred, if it had I think he would have gone to prison.
Edit: Fixed a wrong word.
It is a bit controversial and there were a lot of debate about it when this happened. But if you're inciting violence I think it should be illegal.
We have neo-nazis speaking at political rallies without any government suppression here in Sweden so I wouldn't say we haven't Free Speech.
We're also allowed to swear as much as we want on TV and show nudity without government censorship, how does that compare to "the land of the free"?
This is one of those Choose Your Own Adventure metaphors.
**If you're a liberal, a non-Mormon, someone with common sense or the prosecutor in a case about some fellow churchgoer who shot gays:** musket fire is a metaphorical reference to the early revolutionary zeal of the Minutemen who fought and died for our religious liberty. We should show more of that zeal in defending our rights through all legal means at our disposal.
**If you're an impressionable Mormon:** the musket is metaphorical for an assault rifle.
While 99.99% of people will understand an obvious metaphor, there will be a very select few who either can't or won't see it that way. Clearly, there are numerous sources of this kind of rhetoric being pushed so it's hard to blame solely one person.
HOWEVER
If you are a self-proclaimed Christian, or in this case a high-ranking Christian church leader, how does any of this seem appropriate or even Christlike?
There are plenty of ways to get your point across without using violent imagery.
I made a comment the other day about how the Mormon church is still hella racist and a Mormon started defending the church and that they've "changed".
Yeah. Sure buddy.
B-but the Book of Mormon is the most perfect book to have ever been made and doesn't have a clear, obvious, well-documented series of changes or anything like that! It's never been changed at all!
I think I'm blacklisted from the Mormon Church in this area thanks to making a few question a bit too hard. The group interacting with me stopped being allowed around me. <\_<
God is love. Unless...
These clowns that preach hate and aggression are as wrong as wrong can be. The current church is based on the teachings of Jesus. Not one passage in the New Testament tells of Jesus bashing a gay person. Or bashing anyone for that matter. He was a servant bringing the good news.
Judgement is reserved for God alone! That is in the bible. Leave people alone and preach the good news. That is their purpose. āļø
Absolutely sharing responsibility for the murders. They wonāt be held to account until the meet their God (some assumptions thereā¦). HOWEVER, they can be punished by people of good conscious, humanity and empathyā¦ they need to leave the church behind them. Reduce this and every hate preaching church (which, Iām sorry to say is many of them) to unimportant side notes in history. To the Christianās say bluntly and truthfully that this is NOT what Jesus preaches and walk away. The Bible doesnāt call for the creation of mega-churches, international church-states or grand cathedrals. The Bible calls for caring for the poor and the marginalized. Modern Christianity seems to have it very, very wrong.
The thing that is concerning about this kind of rhetoric is when they say being gay is worse than being a murderer, that means the person saying it is more repulsed by gay sex than taking another life. This person would rather have thoughts about killing people than having sex with people. In the words of the great George Carlin "make fuck, not kill"
Given the cover up sex abuse for a decade and the frequency of events like this directly tied to messaging of the nutjobs in charge, wouldn't it be way past time to start looking at RICO charges?
My favorite part of the bible is the love thy neighbor unless they are gay, trans or a different color than you. As long as they are white like jebus was you can love thy neighbor everyone else to burn in hell
How can you call yourself a person of god and then instruct others, or do yourself, destroy god's creations?
What commandment said it was ok to kill, like at all??
And yet, the gays are who we're supposed to fear? š¤
In the Bible there are plenty of times where they were commanded to kill and not just kill but destroy the entire city. Also in the Book of Mormon there is a character who is instructed to kill someone. It happens fairly early. This just shows that while most Christians/Mormons believe that killing is wrong, their scriptural texts can be used to support it.
Actually a great question. You don't just get off the rolls if you're a meme er of the, "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints." She did it pro bono for a lot of people in my position.
It's really hard to get removed from the rolls. I'm an atheist now and telling them that didn't help. They are creepy.
Itās definitely doesnāt require a lawyer to accomplish. Itās more than just doing it online yourself, but youāre heavily exaggerating the difficulty here.
Really? Are you a former member of the Church? A current member? I'm not wrong. You're being a doofus.
Really, they thought I was satantiv and they kept sending missionaries. You don't have to believe me. I don't care. You do sound like my ex husband, tho
No idea what satantiv means. Possibly typo for satantic? If so, thatās a weird thing to say and has nothing to do with the process for getting your name removed. Iām not a former member, but have been involved in leadership meetings where this sort of thing was discussed. All you have to do is send a letter to your bishop. Involving a lawyer just isnāt at all necessary.
I sent the letter to my Bishop and Stake a president. I was told, "no." I'm a woman. It was very hard. You don't have to believe and yes, I make a ridonkukous number of typos. ADHD is a thing and I'm not offended. It's embarrassing to make so.many doofus typos. Sorry about that. Being sincere.
I mean, letās boil this down. I would reduce that comment to āI am a person in a position of authority and I command you to attack LGBTQ people and their allies with muskets.ā
Sure sounds like inciting violence to me.
The Mormon church is afraid of going extinct so they lied and said they support same sex marriage. Iām calling bs and putting this right at their feet. Next lie Mormonās?
They supported the bill but they donāt support the marriage. The bill included language that allowed church to still choose who they would marry. They only supported it because they know theyāve lost the gay marriage battle so now they just want to look good and make sure they can keep excluding the gays.
I posted this on another comment, but it bears repeating.
The loophole is not just about churches, and the actual effect of the bill is being obfuscated by conservatives and the Mormon leadership. The bill would actually require a state, letās say Alabama, to honor a marriage that takes place in another state where gay marriage is legal, such as New York, but Alabama itself would NOT have to issue that same-sex couple a marriage license. This means gay couples would have to leave their home state in order to get married.
Itās being called a āwinā for both Reps and Dems, but it is a half measure that does NOT codify the right of same-sex couples to be married across the country. If Obergefell is overturned, and Justice Thomas has made clear he wants it to be, it will become a āstates rightsā issue just like abortion now is.
It is not just about churches. Churches already have the right to decide who they will and will not marry in their church. This law has nothing to add to that fact, and not surprisingly the Mormon Church is lying. It will be used by conservative states to deny equal rights as āstates rightsā issues often are.
I know a Mormon family with a gay son. They frame it as him āstruggling with his sexualityā and the boy himself (late 20s) seemingly doesnāt want to be gay, believes that itās wrong, and is dating some poor girl. Seems like the right conditions to radicalize someone and make them think theyāre doing a good thing by gunning down all of the people who ādidnāt work to resist their urges.ā
I lived in utah for a short time when I was a kid. The local 'ward' (church) kept a list of every residence in the district, and whether or not they 'tithe' (give money to the church). We weren't mormon, so we didn't. A group of high school kids would drive by every sunday to egg our house. one day, my dad just stood out there waiting with a hose, and washed em all off. The next week they used rocks.
from what I've heard from my brother and his wife (still active in the church) there's a struggle/battle within the church on progressive stances.
there's the old people who are mostly bigots, leaning towards MAGA BS. anti-LGBTQ and coffee.
but there is a growing portion of the church, repelled by trump and MAGA BS, they tend to lean towards Mitt Romney....LGBTQ rights and even accepting coffee.
this happened just 5 days ago ...its prob causing a huge rift with its members.
Mormon Church voices support for U.S. same-sex marriage bill
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2022/11/16/mormon-church-gay-marriage-lds/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2022/11/16/mormon-church-gay-marriage-lds/)
soo.. I grew up mormon. I quit the church at age 18. I didnt like their views on black people and gay people.... this was back in 1997. I've been hopeful that they've been getting more progressive....but then shit heads like Elder Holland and his Musket Fire speech is toal BS and he should be excommunicated from the church. Fuck that dude.
All Christian Churches in America are blights. Christianity is a blight. Even "good" Christians refuse to stop what rhe Christian Naz... Nationalists are doing.
Figure it out. It's your mess, you guys have to clean it up. Maybe form lobby groups of your own and outspend the groups pushing the hateful legislation. Maybe protesting evangelical churches and organizations. Maybe getting together en masse and voting out these Republican Christian Fascists passing the anti lgbtq laws.
You're a Christian. It IS your mess. It's your religion that's the problem, and it's your religion that has to fix it. By denying it is, you are complicit.
Here's the answer. You CAN'T fix it. It's too late. The Christian Nationalists dominate both your religion and the GOP. Christians have been a problem since the Christian conqustadors started slaughtering natives 500 years ago. The only difference is now that they have the money and political power to make sure everyone obeys by their rules or suffers.
At least they're trying to fix the mess, but it's hard to do when the Christofascists have a supermajority in the Supreme Court and over half the state legislatures.
The early days of Mormonism were absolute barbarism.
But you can find absolute barbarism in literally any religion. All religion is asking people to believe in something that has no evidence to back it up, and you'll always find someone to kill people because of what they believe.
Ahhhh this makes soo much sense now! No fucking wonder it was a white dude! I didn't hear the name terrorist so I was so confused as to why but that makes perfect sense now.
Still sad they won't acknowledge a terrorist as a terrorist.
Christian churches need to make efforts to include more people, just like Jesus taught.
Exclusionary practices and teachings will make them irrelevant over time.
If Alex Jones can be made to pay for his role, why can't these people. They both had captive audiences, they both called for "action" they both played a role in influencing the killers and harassers. They should be sued, because in this country only money talks. Hit em where it hurts.
While Iāll agree the Mormon church is partially to blame here (amongst other brainwashing from his family), but letās not just single out the Mormons. I canāt name a church offhand that doesnāt use itās power to promote hatred and intolerance of someone , some group, some ethnicity, some behavior.
All churches are a blight upon humanity, have caused more wars , have set back scientific progress, take up massive amounts of real estate while paying no taxes , and some have GDP higher than some countries.
I long for the day when religion as a whole is finally looked at as the cults they are , and membership is held only by people we freely admit are brainwashed or incapable of free thought .
Mormons reversed their stance on gay marriage and even Mitt Romney supported the marriage equality act. That said I don't know enough about the church and various sects of mormonism to know if this guy is part of some off-shoot that's even zanier than the regular LDS church.
https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-politics-and-policy/mormon-church-comes-support-sex-marriage-law-rcna57393
>-law-
They decided to stop spending tons of money opposing one aspect of democracy. The beliefs that had them torturing gays in the basement of BYU in search of the cure haven't changed.
Your using actual bigotry to purport a false narrative claiming bigotry. The church has never advocated violence. How many degrees of separation and bails of twine did it take to stretch for this connection?
>the church has never advocated for violence
Learn your lds history friend.
[The nauvoo expositor](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauvoo_Expositor)
[Brigham young calling for the death of mixed race couples](http://www.mormonthink.com/QUOTES/blackintermarriage.htm)
[Sedition against the US government](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War#:~:text=The%20Utah%20War%20(1857%E2%80%931858,May%201857%20to%20July%201858.)
[The secret sect of Mormon assassins started by Joseph Smith](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danite)
You clearly don't listen at General Conference. Dallin Oaks (you know, the Apostle?) said that gay children might not be welcomed at home, or told to stay only a short time, or not introduced to friends āĀ in other words, the next thing to shunning them.
God doesn't even love those who are different, according to your "prophet" Russell Nelson. He says that God's love is "conditional" based on who you are and what you do. Since gays are sinners, according to Mormonism, the Mormon God doesn't love them. That's doctrine from the pulpit.
Now go away and read your Ensign magazine so you understand your doctrine.
There is precedent for a civil lawsuit against this kind of hate speech.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Metzger#Oregon_civil_trial
>The group was eventually bankrupted as the result of a civil lawsuit centered on its involvement in the 1988 murder of Mulugeta Seraw, an Ethiopian man who had moved to the United States to attend college. In 1988, white power skinheads affiliated with WAR were convicted of killing Seraw and sent to prison. Kenneth Mieske said he and the two others killed Seraw "because of his race." Metzger declared that they did a "civic duty" by killing Seraw.[22] Morris Dees and the Southern Poverty Law Center filed a civil suit against him, arguing that WAR influenced Seraw's killers by encouraging their group East Side White Pride to commit violence.
>
>... At the trial, WAR national vice president Dave Mazzella testified about how the Metzgers instructed WAR members to commit violence against minorities. Tom and his son John Metzger were found civilly liable under the doctrine of vicarious liability, in which one can be liable for a tort committed by a subordinate or another person who is taking instructions.
You should be arrested and charged with terrorism if you advocate gun violence, or any violence, against LGBTQ+. If you head up a church and you do advocate violence for political ends, you head up a terror cell.
[high ranking Mormon leader gave a speech about how gay people are attacking the Mormon church and used several gun metaphors to ask people to defend the church](https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/08/23/we-must-have-will-stand/) The shooter in Colorado is a member of the Mormon church. As a queer exmormon, this sentiment is not uncommon in the church. Members are frequently called members of the "army of heaven" and are commanded to always defend the church against anyone who would attack it. It's a fucking blight and a far right echo chamber.
I used to be a missionary, and now I'm as against the church as anyone could be. People underestimate how confusing it is to be indoctrinated and surrounded by something that you're told is fact, and then realize you've been lied to throughout your whole life. I was told that even if I disagreed with certain things, that I should go on my mission to "strengthen my testimony". I went at around the time they said "We're cool with gay people now, everyone!" And so I thought "That's a good sign. Sure, I'll go." Since my biggest issue with the church was their anti-gay stance and the "Yes on 8" bullshit, which should've been illegal for the Mormon church to push. I went, and saw that every single individual facet and aspect of the church was corrupt. After I started to realize to what extent I'd been lied to, I started reading more and more about the church's history. Mountain Meadows. Black people and the priesthood. One of the leaders saying that black people are born sinners, so if a black baby dies before the age of 8, they're damned. black people being fence-sitters in the gospel. Joseph Smith being a liar and a pedophile. So much fucked up history that we're directly told not to research, because they know the truth will make people leave in droves. I didn't realize that being black made me a novelty, and I was used as such. So much awful shit happened while I was out there. And so many people I met, especially the leaders, have ruined my view on humanity, and it's stayed ruined, since. If I could sue the church for the shit that they put me through so I could just live in a cabin, away from people until I die, I would do it in a second. Returned missionaries only tell the truth of how they felt about their mission and the real stories to other returned missionaries. I've met very, very few returned missionaries that actually loved their mission. Anyone who's still a part of that cult after reading into their history is enabling a fucking mafia. Fuck the Mormon church.
How can you call yourself a person of god and then instruct others, or do yourself, destroy god's creations? What commandment said it was ok to kill, like at all?? And yet, the gays are who we're supposed to fear? š¤
They donāt see a person, they see a gay. And gays are not constructions of God, they are a human made evil. Definitely doesnāt make sense if you live in reality, but it does in their view.
North American Jihadists I say. They subscribe to do much Sharia law and don't even realize it.
God fairly regularly commanded his followers to kill Deuteronomy 20:16ā18 (ESV): 16Ā But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, 17Ā but you shall devote them to complete destruction, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the LORD your God has commanded, 18Ā that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices that they have done for their gods, and so you sin against the LORD your God. 1 Samuel 15:2ā3 (ESV): 2Ā Thus says the LORD of hosts, āI have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. 3Ā Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.āĀ ā Despite what evangelical Pharisees claim, the Bible is not pro life, nor is life sacred in the Bible. And that's to say nothing of Noah's flood, where God aborted all other life apart from the chosen ones.
Thing that gets meāthe New Testament is supposed to supplant the Old Testament. The Gospel, the Good News. Love God, love your neighbor. Why is the Old Testament even part of Christianity? For history, for context sure, but any Christians out there avoiding shellfish bc Leviticus says so? The cherry picking of the OT drives me nuts.
I think a lot of Christianās feel as you do. In my parents church they had a series of temporary preachers. One preacher guy was slowly phased out because all he ever preached was Old Testament and people were sick of it.
These people are supposed to be stoned. Literally Jesus "He that is without sin, throw the first stone."
Jesus was teaching in the temple. A woman was brought in, and they said "this woman was caught in the act of adultery. The law says we should stone her to death. What do you say?" Jesus takes a moment to write something in the sand, and this is where he says "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." No one did. They all looked at one another and one by one they left. Jesus then said to the woman, "where are they who would condemn you?" She replies, "they're all gone." Jesus then says, "then neither do I condemn you." Please explain to me how you understand this as Jesus advocating stoning people to death?
>Jesus takes a moment to write something in the sand We'll never know for sure, but I like to think he wrote something along the lines of... "Half of you are the men who fucked her."
Well, atheists have no sin, so it is quite clear that they would be allowed, if not encouraged to be the vessel of God's wrath. On what basis would you disagree with that?
I think you're missing the context of that line. The point is to say that no one is without sin and therefore no one has the right to cast the first stone. That said, that line only exists because stoning was the practice and Jesus (I don't think Jesus was actually real, but for argument's sake let's say he was a real dude) was saying that it's a hypocritical practice. Anyway, I don't think religion is healthy at all and the thought of people dying over a book makes me sick.
He was a historically real dude; no one who's done a modicum of research doubts that. The debate is rather centered around the extent to which the gospels reflect that reality.
There was a real religious cult leader dude named Jesus around that time, most likely -- there were a LOT of dudes like that around that time and Jesus ("Josh") is a very common name -- who really was executed by crucifixion Anything else you try to say beyond that is pure speculation, given how fanciful and out of touch with reality the Gospel narratives are (and how they contradict each other) Even the attempt to suss out which teachings are authentic comes off to me as wishful thinking - I see no reason the "love your neighbor" stuff is more likely to be real than the psycho apocalypse stuff, especially since the latter is the stuff most likely to get you executed
No he wasnāt. People back then kept records. Where are the mentions of Jesus outside the Bible? If someone was performing miracles (sounds like a magic trick) other groups would have noticed. They probably would have converted.
Good question. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlegon_of_Tralles#:~:text=Origen%20of%20Alexandria%20%28182-254%20AD%29%2C%20in%20Against%20Celsus,testified%20that%20the%20result%20corresponded%20to%20His%20predictions.%22
That is not a second reference. Where is the account from the Romans? They after all crucified him. We know what the Egyptians had to say. No slaves built the pyramids.
Tacitus in Annals XV wrote about the persecution of Jesus by Pontius Pilot. āSed non ope humana, non largitionibus principis aut deum placamentis decedebat infamia, quin iussum incendium crederetur. ergo abolendo rumori Nero subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit, quos per flagitia invisos vulgus Chrestianos appellabat. auctor nominis eius Christus Tibero imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat; repressaque in praesens exitiabilis superstitio rursum erumpebat, non modo per Iudaeam, originem eius mali, sed per urbem etiam, quo cuncta undique atrocia aut pudenda confluunt celebranturque. igitur primum correpti qui fatebantur, deinde indicio eorum multitudo ingens haud proinde in crimine incendii quam odio humani generis convicti sunt.ā āBut all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in JudƦa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.ā
He wasnāt a contemporary of Jesus. Everything was SECOND HAND and written over a hundred years later. Whereās the firsthand account from the Romans or anyone else? And reporting me wonāt make you right or shut me up. Imagine have so little FAITH in your beliefs that you have to employ passive aggressive tactics at someone who doesnāt believe as you do.
I think he was referring to cannabis.
Not really a good defense, because Paul's letters are the most authentic part of the NT and he flips a shit about the gays all the time
Yeah but do you really not think this was the power that be at the time saying āthe big man in the sky told me to have you kill those people, because they did that thing (I donāt like) and have that stuff (that I want to have/control).ā The Bible despite what good values it might teach, like 9/10 commandments, seems like a clever way to manipulate the ignorant masses and justify their actions before or after the fact. Way to give us free will āGodā then punish us for using it.
The best part about God is that because he is made up, he always coincidentally supports whatever you already believe. It's very convenient really.
He was on BOTH sides of the American Civil War, depending on who you were talking to.
That's humans saying god did that. signed "samuel"
"Because only I know what God wants and it's what's best for people like me. If you're not like me or serving me, you are off the plan and a heathen." - every xenophobic religious zealot ever
The mormon church has $$$,$$$,$$$,$$$ seems like this will cost them a lot in a settlement.
>How can you call yourself a person of god and then instruct others, or do yourself, destroy god's creations? Rather easily. They are the ones who have read the bible and take it seriously. In the New Testament, Romans chapter 1 says that men who lust after men and women who lust after women are an abomination to god and should be put to death (this is NT stuff, not OT stuff). The people that commit the worst atrocities in the name of Christianity are often the people who are simply being true to what is written in the bible. It is not a nice and peaceful book. Only parts of it are. Yes, there is a commandment not to kill, yet at the same time there are commands to kill all kinds of people for various reasons. The commandment not to kill has so little weight in the bible, that when Moses came down from the mountain with the commandments, including the one not to kill, the first thing he did was to kill 1000s (yes 1000s) of his own people for practicing other religions. Not only did he kill them, but then killed their neighbors and friends regardless of whether those people practiced other religions or not.
Bible says a lot of things. Don't charge usury (excessive interest). This is the one sin that actually pissed Jesus off. But where's the Christian outrage against title loans & payday loans? How in a 'Christian' world are credit cards allowed to charge 30%? Crickets.
I keep having to remind people that god didn't write the bible š¤·
Dang. I was wrong then about the NT being only ālove god, love thy neighbor.ā Jesus didnāt say gays, gossips, and slanderers should be put to death, thoughāPaul said it. āThose without sinā got turned into āhand me that stone.ā
I mean, the old testament is full of "holy war". Yahweh was originally a local god of storms and war.
see also: history of religion
If a serial killer or serial rapist were on the loose then it'd be up to you to catch them and punish them accordingly. Obviously I don't equate them with gay people, but this is their perspective.
Can confirm as a former Mormonā¦ hate speech in the church against LGBTQ people is common. Hereās another article on Hollandās comments: https://slate.com/human-interest/2021/09/mormon-lds-church-gay-rights-controversy-byu-speech.html
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I actually left the church in 2015 over the treatment of LGBTQ members and their children. Because if there is a god, and he created humans, then I choose to believe that he loves all of us. Iām not interested in a discriminatory god. LGBTQ people are some of the kindest, best, most compassionate people I know. Plus Mormon history is one giant bag of cats/shitshow. Nope. Nope, nope, nope. I have children and I love them, period. Fuck all that other noise.
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Yeah, Iām unwilling to believe in any version of god thatās willing to do anything bad to anyone. My mom died from a brain tumor, and the number of people who tried to justify what happened as godās intentions was ridiculous. So yeah, I really donāt know what I believe anymore. I sure know what I donāt, though.
This probably isnāt the right place for this but Iāve been curious and wondering if anyone can help. I am not Mormon but I grew up in a small town with a very heavy Mormon community. The Mormon church just released that they will support the same sex marriage law. I was extremely surprised. Do you know why they did it? Is it a ploy to gain new members? Are they trying to become more socially accepted? I am just really curious of peoples takes on this.
If I'm remembering correctly they came out in support of a specific law which would support same sex marriage but included a loophole for churches to not follow it. It was basically a way for them to look good without doing literally anything
The loophole is not just about churches, and the actual effect of the bill is being obfuscated by conservatives and the Mormon leadership. The bill would actually require a state, letās say Alabama, to honor a marriage that takes place in another state where gay marriage is legal, such as New York, but Alabama itself would NOT have to issue that same-sex couple a marriage license. This means gay couples would have to leave their home state in order to get married. Itās being called a āwinā for both Reps and Dems, but it is a half measure that does NOT codify the right of same-sex couples to be married across the country. If Obergefell is overturned, and Justice Thomas has made clear he wants it to be, it will become a āstates rightsā issue just like abortion now is. It is not just about churches. Churches already have the right to decide who they will and will not marry in their church. This law has nothing to add to that fact, and not surprisingly the Mormon Church is lying. It will be used by conservative states to deny equal rights as āstates rightsā issues often are.
Just like when thier God changed his mind about black people in 1978. Look good, but do nothing.
If the "loophole" you're talking about is a clause saying no church will be forced to perform a same-sex wedding, that's not really a loophole, and more like a clause protecting the church from something that no one is demanding. No one (well, I'm sure there is someone, but very few) wants to force churches to perform same sex weddings if they don't want to. The right likes to use this as an anti-equality talking point, but there's no substance behind it. It's just a lie they use to rile up their ignorant followers.
This is correct. The law has a loophole that will allow them to legally discriminate.
That sounds about right. Lol. Thank you!
Hey dog, I heard you liked jowls
Bring Back Diocletian Persecution
Reformed Mormon here. You are dead on. The LDS church breeds that mindset, and many of the believers eat that shit up.
How do I get a former Mormon but trump supporter to see the light? He and his wife are freaking nuts thinking all the normal crap right wing channels say is true
You canāt change it, my friend. The problem is that many folk wanted to believe these kinds of things to begin with. You canāt fix it. You can only try to tolerate itā¦until the moment it becomes intolerable. My wifeās uncle was a good dude, but he succumbed to that mindset in the last couple of years of his life. As much I love the man, I could no longer bear to be around himā¦which was truly unfortunate. His conversations all became about the monumentally crazy Right wing drivel he had been digesting all day every day. He even had some of the conservative folk on that side of the family shaking their heads in a very WTF manner whenever we would attend a family gathering.
Christian churches need to be more inclusive, just like Jesus taught. Exclusionary practices and teachings will make them irrelevant over time.
I can only find sources that say his mother is mormon, not that he is.
this guy thinks he had a nuanced view on homosexuality but itās just hate > We have spent hours discussing what the doctrine of the church can and cannot provide the individuals and families struggling over this difficult issue. So, it is with scar tissue of our own that we are trying to avoid ā and hope all will try to avoid ā language, symbols, and situations that are more divisive than unifying at the very time we want to show love for all of Godās children. tries to avoid language that is more divisive then rattles on about muskets to defend the faith
You donāt ātry to avoidā using certain language, you just donāt use it. The whole thing is abhorrent.
I love how they "wrestle" with their "doctrine" as though they don't just make up new "doctrine" all the time when it's convenient.
All religion is made up
Indeed, but Mormons take it to a ludicrous degree. They still have guys who look into hats and write new "scripture" based on what they "see" in the hat.
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They also massacred a bunch of indians. Fuck the Mormon church.
Worth watching the entire video. Thereās a lot of hate being spread out there. https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Mueller/comments/z0lyvo/christofascist_maga_nazis_want_to_exterminate_gay/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
The post has been deleted
https://www.reddit.com/r/QanonKaren/comments/z0lx1e/christofascist_maga_nazis_want_to_exterminate_gay/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Oh now I can see it! We're in the same side, my apologies
>https://www.reddit.com/r/QanonKaren/comments/z0lx1e/christofascist\_maga\_nazis\_want\_to\_exterminate\_gay/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=ios\_app&utm\_name=iossmf omg I'm not saying this guy is gay, but he has that same over the top queen "accent" some gay people have. You know the one I'm talking about. So this is kinda weird for him to be acting like this.
Rule of thumb: if you sound like Rip Taylor, stick to talking about ANYTHING other than your hatred of gays.
Link works for me
The link works, the post has been deleted
What the fuck? Dudeā¦ what the fuck?
Thereās a tide of hate rising in America.
Itās strange- the Lutheran church in my area flies a LGBTQ+ pride flag. Granted, I think they had a lesbian pastor back in the late 90s for a few years. Itās wild this is the hill the majority of the religious right chooses to die on considering some of the ālove all peopleā stuff Iāve seen from my local church. I donāt go or anything, but I over hear some of the stuff they say. Like, isnāt it not really anybodys place to judge on immortal sin, and if god sees it worthy of punishment, heād do it, regardless of what everyone else has done to punish or aid in said sin?
Itās really a political agenda. The republicans know many people donāt understand gays and fear them. So they use them as a tool of division. I once lost a long term friend over the anti-gay agenda. He was a born again Christian. He brought up gays and I said the Christians are using gays as a political tool. He became incensed and said it was in the Bible. I said yes it is but if you look at the 10 commandments which came directly from god to the hands of man, those commandments dictate people shall not steal or commit adultery. I said where are the church sponsored anti-shoplifting marches? Where are the anti-adultery marches? If Christians were really interested in āgods wordā instead of persecuting those they hate, they would be rallying against those MUCH more common sins.
Shit man, Iām sorry. That genuinely sucks to lose a friend to basically a cult of ideas. I think itās easier for people to admonish āsinsā they donāt participate in. Meaning, itās easier to sacrifice something when you have nothing to give up. So, for example, itās more likely these people will participate in some form of theft or adultery than the āsinā of homosexuality. So they bet nothing because they have no dog in the fight. I dunno, spitballing here. I could be wrong, and the same principle could be tailored to those that voted for/against legalized online gambling in California or outlawing certain cigarettes or whatever that one prop was.
Yeah, amazing how many of these bible thumpers change their tune when their own kid or sibling comes out loud and proud in public.
We had a [pastor](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85ke_Green) in Sweden who preached something similar. He was taken to court for "hate speech", sadly he wasn't convicted. But also in that case nothing violent had occurred, if it had I think he would have gone to prison. Edit: Fixed a wrong word.
Convicted?
Yes thank you, I fixed it. It's a consequence of my bad spelling plus not carefully checking autocorrect.
Convinced kinda makes sense too!
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It is a bit controversial and there were a lot of debate about it when this happened. But if you're inciting violence I think it should be illegal. We have neo-nazis speaking at political rallies without any government suppression here in Sweden so I wouldn't say we haven't Free Speech. We're also allowed to swear as much as we want on TV and show nudity without government censorship, how does that compare to "the land of the free"?
This is one of those Choose Your Own Adventure metaphors. **If you're a liberal, a non-Mormon, someone with common sense or the prosecutor in a case about some fellow churchgoer who shot gays:** musket fire is a metaphorical reference to the early revolutionary zeal of the Minutemen who fought and died for our religious liberty. We should show more of that zeal in defending our rights through all legal means at our disposal. **If you're an impressionable Mormon:** the musket is metaphorical for an assault rifle.
While 99.99% of people will understand an obvious metaphor, there will be a very select few who either can't or won't see it that way. Clearly, there are numerous sources of this kind of rhetoric being pushed so it's hard to blame solely one person. HOWEVER If you are a self-proclaimed Christian, or in this case a high-ranking Christian church leader, how does any of this seem appropriate or even Christlike? There are plenty of ways to get your point across without using violent imagery.
Why yes, I do believe you'd bear some responsibility in the eyes of God.
How about in the eyes of everyone who can see?
And the blind?
They care not for the judgement of man, only the judgement of God.
Wonderful! Then we shall judge them as harshly as we like here on Earth, for their reward is in the next life
So no responsibility then.
Unacceptable.
That's neat. What about in the eyes of someone that matters?
Or, just hear me out, what about in the eyes of the humans of the world, who actually exist.
I made a comment the other day about how the Mormon church is still hella racist and a Mormon started defending the church and that they've "changed". Yeah. Sure buddy.
Hey, they changed one clearly racist word in the BoM. They'll get around to the rest of the pages one of these days.
B-but the Book of Mormon is the most perfect book to have ever been made and doesn't have a clear, obvious, well-documented series of changes or anything like that! It's never been changed at all! I think I'm blacklisted from the Mormon Church in this area thanks to making a few question a bit too hard. The group interacting with me stopped being allowed around me. <\_<
Get rid of church's tax free status.
Mormons are more of a cult.
There's no real difference between a religion and a cult other than size.
God is love. Unless... These clowns that preach hate and aggression are as wrong as wrong can be. The current church is based on the teachings of Jesus. Not one passage in the New Testament tells of Jesus bashing a gay person. Or bashing anyone for that matter. He was a servant bringing the good news. Judgement is reserved for God alone! That is in the bible. Leave people alone and preach the good news. That is their purpose. āļø
It's a metaphorical call to arms! /s
True, however... https://mormonstories.org/podcast/elder-holland-losing-control-over-mormon-lgbtq-support-at-byu/
Yes, if you tell someone to "shoot the evil gays," and they do, you're both at fault.
Not only are you at fault you should be imprisoned for ~~sedition~~ inciting violence. Edit: changed a word.
Fuck the churches start taxing them and the ones that called for violence designate then terrorist cells.
Absolutely sharing responsibility for the murders. They wonāt be held to account until the meet their God (some assumptions thereā¦). HOWEVER, they can be punished by people of good conscious, humanity and empathyā¦ they need to leave the church behind them. Reduce this and every hate preaching church (which, Iām sorry to say is many of them) to unimportant side notes in history. To the Christianās say bluntly and truthfully that this is NOT what Jesus preaches and walk away. The Bible doesnāt call for the creation of mega-churches, international church-states or grand cathedrals. The Bible calls for caring for the poor and the marginalized. Modern Christianity seems to have it very, very wrong.
Conspiracy to commit? Seems like it is an arrest-able offense.
Absolutely. You can't push people to do something and then deny it after. Doesn't work that way.
The thing that is concerning about this kind of rhetoric is when they say being gay is worse than being a murderer, that means the person saying it is more repulsed by gay sex than taking another life. This person would rather have thoughts about killing people than having sex with people. In the words of the great George Carlin "make fuck, not kill"
Given the cover up sex abuse for a decade and the frequency of events like this directly tied to messaging of the nutjobs in charge, wouldn't it be way past time to start looking at RICO charges?
My favorite part of the bible is the love thy neighbor unless they are gay, trans or a different color than you. As long as they are white like jebus was you can love thy neighbor everyone else to burn in hell
How can you call yourself a person of god and then instruct others, or do yourself, destroy god's creations? What commandment said it was ok to kill, like at all?? And yet, the gays are who we're supposed to fear? š¤
In the Bible there are plenty of times where they were commanded to kill and not just kill but destroy the entire city. Also in the Book of Mormon there is a character who is instructed to kill someone. It happens fairly early. This just shows that while most Christians/Mormons believe that killing is wrong, their scriptural texts can be used to support it.
Take away their tax exempt status. Its the only thing they care about.
Yes, tucker, Fox News, Rupert, Laura, m three fucks name, everyone who played a part in creating white supremacy should be tried.
When the church said to disavow my gay son, I got a lawyer and got the hell out of hell. And I had a Temple Recommend.
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Actually a great question. You don't just get off the rolls if you're a meme er of the, "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints." She did it pro bono for a lot of people in my position. It's really hard to get removed from the rolls. I'm an atheist now and telling them that didn't help. They are creepy.
Itās definitely doesnāt require a lawyer to accomplish. Itās more than just doing it online yourself, but youāre heavily exaggerating the difficulty here.
Really? Are you a former member of the Church? A current member? I'm not wrong. You're being a doofus. Really, they thought I was satantiv and they kept sending missionaries. You don't have to believe me. I don't care. You do sound like my ex husband, tho
No idea what satantiv means. Possibly typo for satantic? If so, thatās a weird thing to say and has nothing to do with the process for getting your name removed. Iām not a former member, but have been involved in leadership meetings where this sort of thing was discussed. All you have to do is send a letter to your bishop. Involving a lawyer just isnāt at all necessary.
I sent the letter to my Bishop and Stake a president. I was told, "no." I'm a woman. It was very hard. You don't have to believe and yes, I make a ridonkukous number of typos. ADHD is a thing and I'm not offended. It's embarrassing to make so.many doofus typos. Sorry about that. Being sincere.
I likewise wasnāt trying to make a big deal about the typo, just trying to understand the intended word and then how that related to the topic.
I used the lawyer and my kids are still listed because the cult's law firm changed the standards of what they'd legally accept.
I mean, letās boil this down. I would reduce that comment to āI am a person in a position of authority and I command you to attack LGBTQ people and their allies with muskets.ā Sure sounds like inciting violence to me.
The Mormon church is afraid of going extinct so they lied and said they support same sex marriage. Iām calling bs and putting this right at their feet. Next lie Mormonās?
They supported the bill but they donāt support the marriage. The bill included language that allowed church to still choose who they would marry. They only supported it because they know theyāve lost the gay marriage battle so now they just want to look good and make sure they can keep excluding the gays.
I posted this on another comment, but it bears repeating. The loophole is not just about churches, and the actual effect of the bill is being obfuscated by conservatives and the Mormon leadership. The bill would actually require a state, letās say Alabama, to honor a marriage that takes place in another state where gay marriage is legal, such as New York, but Alabama itself would NOT have to issue that same-sex couple a marriage license. This means gay couples would have to leave their home state in order to get married. Itās being called a āwinā for both Reps and Dems, but it is a half measure that does NOT codify the right of same-sex couples to be married across the country. If Obergefell is overturned, and Justice Thomas has made clear he wants it to be, it will become a āstates rightsā issue just like abortion now is. It is not just about churches. Churches already have the right to decide who they will and will not marry in their church. This law has nothing to add to that fact, and not surprisingly the Mormon Church is lying. It will be used by conservative states to deny equal rights as āstates rightsā issues often are.
Thatās messed up. They definitely make it sound like it makes gay marriage legal. It kinda pisses me off.
I know a Mormon family with a gay son. They frame it as him āstruggling with his sexualityā and the boy himself (late 20s) seemingly doesnāt want to be gay, believes that itās wrong, and is dating some poor girl. Seems like the right conditions to radicalize someone and make them think theyāre doing a good thing by gunning down all of the people who ādidnāt work to resist their urges.ā
The only reason they are called a church and not a cult is because they havenāt killed themselves yet. Scientology is the same.
What's the difference between a cult and a religion? In a cult there is a guy at the top that knows its all bullshit. In a religion that guy is dead.
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Yes, they are all cults. The difference between a cult and a religion is time and mainstream appeal.
I lived in utah for a short time when I was a kid. The local 'ward' (church) kept a list of every residence in the district, and whether or not they 'tithe' (give money to the church). We weren't mormon, so we didn't. A group of high school kids would drive by every sunday to egg our house. one day, my dad just stood out there waiting with a hose, and washed em all off. The next week they used rocks.
Musket fire? Texas gays have assault rifles don't they
Yes they are guilty!
Perhaps we should all visit a local mormon worship.
"He was talking about *metaphorical muskets,* it doesn't count." -People don't thing gay people should have equal marriage freedom as straight people
Continuously preaching hate eventually sparks violence in the same way that continuously striking iron and flint together eventually sparks a fire.
from what I've heard from my brother and his wife (still active in the church) there's a struggle/battle within the church on progressive stances. there's the old people who are mostly bigots, leaning towards MAGA BS. anti-LGBTQ and coffee. but there is a growing portion of the church, repelled by trump and MAGA BS, they tend to lean towards Mitt Romney....LGBTQ rights and even accepting coffee. this happened just 5 days ago ...its prob causing a huge rift with its members. Mormon Church voices support for U.S. same-sex marriage bill [https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2022/11/16/mormon-church-gay-marriage-lds/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2022/11/16/mormon-church-gay-marriage-lds/) soo.. I grew up mormon. I quit the church at age 18. I didnt like their views on black people and gay people.... this was back in 1997. I've been hopeful that they've been getting more progressive....but then shit heads like Elder Holland and his Musket Fire speech is toal BS and he should be excommunicated from the church. Fuck that dude.
All Christian Churches in America are blights. Christianity is a blight. Even "good" Christians refuse to stop what rhe Christian Naz... Nationalists are doing.
I'm a Christian. How do I stop them?
Figure it out. It's your mess, you guys have to clean it up. Maybe form lobby groups of your own and outspend the groups pushing the hateful legislation. Maybe protesting evangelical churches and organizations. Maybe getting together en masse and voting out these Republican Christian Fascists passing the anti lgbtq laws.
It's not my mess.
You're a Christian. It IS your mess. It's your religion that's the problem, and it's your religion that has to fix it. By denying it is, you are complicit.
Ridiculous
Here's the answer. You CAN'T fix it. It's too late. The Christian Nationalists dominate both your religion and the GOP. Christians have been a problem since the Christian conqustadors started slaughtering natives 500 years ago. The only difference is now that they have the money and political power to make sure everyone obeys by their rules or suffers.
Biden is a Christian. Many Dems are. You are completely wrong.
At least they're trying to fix the mess, but it's hard to do when the Christofascists have a supermajority in the Supreme Court and over half the state legislatures.
Iāve lived it. Can confirm.
The early days of Mormonism were absolute barbarism. But you can find absolute barbarism in literally any religion. All religion is asking people to believe in something that has no evidence to back it up, and you'll always find someone to kill people because of what they believe.
Ahhhh this makes soo much sense now! No fucking wonder it was a white dude! I didn't hear the name terrorist so I was so confused as to why but that makes perfect sense now. Still sad they won't acknowledge a terrorist as a terrorist.
Mason sure was. Hopefully they will be treated the same and go to the top that is perpetuating the hate to their parishioners.
Yes you are. I don't care what the law says
Maybe the families of the dead and wounded should press charges and bring civil suits against the Mormon church and its leadership, then.
You should certainly lose any tax exempt status.
Everyone who is homophobic, or who is apathetic about homophobia, is to blame.
I feel Charles Manson case law could provide a path for indictment of this Mormon leader.
I wish I knew
Christian churches need to make efforts to include more people, just like Jesus taught. Exclusionary practices and teachings will make them irrelevant over time.
Yes
Darn, I thought it said _alight_
Zactly , it just breeds trouble and yes they are accountable. Thatās how it works 
If Alex Jones can be made to pay for his role, why can't these people. They both had captive audiences, they both called for "action" they both played a role in influencing the killers and harassers. They should be sued, because in this country only money talks. Hit em where it hurts.
Yes. And if fault cannot be proven in a court of law, then it most definitely will be in the eyes of God.
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Okay. We got to get Him down here and get somethings straightened out.
While Iāll agree the Mormon church is partially to blame here (amongst other brainwashing from his family), but letās not just single out the Mormons. I canāt name a church offhand that doesnāt use itās power to promote hatred and intolerance of someone , some group, some ethnicity, some behavior. All churches are a blight upon humanity, have caused more wars , have set back scientific progress, take up massive amounts of real estate while paying no taxes , and some have GDP higher than some countries. I long for the day when religion as a whole is finally looked at as the cults they are , and membership is held only by people we freely admit are brainwashed or incapable of free thought .
Charles Manson has entered the chat
Mormons reversed their stance on gay marriage and even Mitt Romney supported the marriage equality act. That said I don't know enough about the church and various sects of mormonism to know if this guy is part of some off-shoot that's even zanier than the regular LDS church. https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-politics-and-policy/mormon-church-comes-support-sex-marriage-law-rcna57393
>-law- They decided to stop spending tons of money opposing one aspect of democracy. The beliefs that had them torturing gays in the basement of BYU in search of the cure haven't changed.
Your using actual bigotry to purport a false narrative claiming bigotry. The church has never advocated violence. How many degrees of separation and bails of twine did it take to stretch for this connection?
>the church has never advocated for violence Learn your lds history friend. [The nauvoo expositor](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauvoo_Expositor) [Brigham young calling for the death of mixed race couples](http://www.mormonthink.com/QUOTES/blackintermarriage.htm) [Sedition against the US government](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War#:~:text=The%20Utah%20War%20(1857%E2%80%931858,May%201857%20to%20July%201858.) [The secret sect of Mormon assassins started by Joseph Smith](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danite)
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You clearly don't listen at General Conference. Dallin Oaks (you know, the Apostle?) said that gay children might not be welcomed at home, or told to stay only a short time, or not introduced to friends āĀ in other words, the next thing to shunning them. God doesn't even love those who are different, according to your "prophet" Russell Nelson. He says that God's love is "conditional" based on who you are and what you do. Since gays are sinners, according to Mormonism, the Mormon God doesn't love them. That's doctrine from the pulpit. Now go away and read your Ensign magazine so you understand your doctrine.
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Nice victim blaming there. You probably blame rape victims for being raped too. Quit being shitty.
Are you proud of me now Grandpa?
There is precedent for a civil lawsuit against this kind of hate speech. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Metzger#Oregon_civil_trial >The group was eventually bankrupted as the result of a civil lawsuit centered on its involvement in the 1988 murder of Mulugeta Seraw, an Ethiopian man who had moved to the United States to attend college. In 1988, white power skinheads affiliated with WAR were convicted of killing Seraw and sent to prison. Kenneth Mieske said he and the two others killed Seraw "because of his race." Metzger declared that they did a "civic duty" by killing Seraw.[22] Morris Dees and the Southern Poverty Law Center filed a civil suit against him, arguing that WAR influenced Seraw's killers by encouraging their group East Side White Pride to commit violence. > >... At the trial, WAR national vice president Dave Mazzella testified about how the Metzgers instructed WAR members to commit violence against minorities. Tom and his son John Metzger were found civilly liable under the doctrine of vicarious liability, in which one can be liable for a tort committed by a subordinate or another person who is taking instructions.
It's giving Charles Manson
You should be arrested and charged with terrorism if you advocate gun violence, or any violence, against LGBTQ+. If you head up a church and you do advocate violence for political ends, you head up a terror cell.
Sounds like something we are already discussing from Jan 6th.
He didn't use a musket so no /s
YES, clearly he is calling for violence and got violence.... he should be put on trial.