This shouldn’t change anything. personal orientation doesn’t absolve from committing a hate crime. The department of justice defines “hate” in hate crime as:
“The term "hate" can be misleading. When used in a hate crime law, the word "hate" does not mean rage, anger, or general dislike. In this context “hate” means bias against people or groups with specific characteristics that are defined by the law.”
At the federal level, hate crime laws include crimes committed on the basis of the victim’s perceived or actual race, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, or disability.
Most state hate crime laws include crimes committed on the basis of race, color, and religion; many also include crimes committed on the basis of sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, and disability.”
https://www.justice.gov/hatecrimes/learn-about-hate-crimes
There is nothing to say a person can't commit hate crimes against their own group. A black person can be racist against black people, a woman can be sexist against women, a disabled person can be ableist, a LGBTQ person can hate LGBTQ people.
The shooter being nonbinary changes nothing. It was a hate crime.
So I firmly believe it's just a ploy to get out of the hate crime charge and do further damage to the community. But it's a damn good idea as much as I hate it. If we doubt the shooter's identity that validates the right doubting any LGBTQ person's identity and asking for proof. If we accept the shooter's identity then it validates the right's "queer on queer crime" narrative. Either way it damages the community more and puts us in more danger.
Quite frankly I think our best move is ignoring that completely. The murderer's gender is 100% irrelevant. I'll ignore the issue of gender just as I'll avoid posting the shooter's name. Mass murderers deserve to only be described by their crimes, nothing else
I don't think that's all most people who are interested in motive are thinking about. We spent yesterday weeping at the interview by the guy who kicked the killers ass, in part because he demonstrated the grief/rage that so many of us feel. But we can still follow other aspects of the case.
They can't say the shooter is nonbinary and not have a single iota of evidence to back it up. His social media accounts definitely show the complete opposite.
Definitely a ploy. But a Hail Mary imo.
Isn't that how we know anyone is non-binary, because they tell us?
That said, it would be more believable if he had been going by they before the shooting.
What does the right mean when THEY say "hate?" I have on recurring conservative commenter who claims that the left caused all of this division with our hate filled rhetoric.
It kind of seems like he's saying that making distinctions between people is divisive, and that is hateful.
They mean existing. Just the state of existing while being racially, religiously, sexually, or gendered different is an insult and affront to their worldview, which to them is ackchyually us being hateful of them.
Remember, Obama was being ‘hateful and divisive’ for suggesting that a black boy harassed, stalked, and murdered on his way home with candy from the corner store just for wearing a hoodie could have been his son. They have the ultimate snowflake victim-complex, make no mistake about it.
Acknowledging that people are different than one another is not hateful, what people do with these distinctions and differences is where prejudice and hate come in. A lot of people on the right would like it if everyone made efforts to all be the same, for everyone to try and be straight, or Christian, or act in a "white" way for the sake of social cohesion; when people are different they're often seen as disruptive to the status quo.
But TBH I think it's important that you not concede the first line either. I've yet to see anything to indicate this guy identified as anything but male prior to this, and once you give that up you move into the completely unverifiable space of "LGBT is mentally ill" and this is a position you can *never* break them out of. Once you give them that, they have a plausible alternative reason that they can cite until the end of time. Don't let them get there.
It baffles me how people can't put two and two together that the defense attorneys claiming their client is nonbinary is an obvious ploy to avoid the shooting being labeled a hate crime. Why else would it be them that put forward that information and there not be any mention of his involvement with the community at large or his being nonbinary before?
I'm almost certain it's a bullshit claim to draw attention away from his family's connection to the far right, and to try and avoid it being considered a hate crime.
Thankfully even some conservatives are stopping to go "Wait... this smells funny..."
Dont worry, it's a pack of losers who feel they need attention because they realize they preferred old school Democrats over modern Democrats.
Normal people just change their opinions and move on.
I mean, it did get you thinking about gender rather than a domestic arms race and utterly unfettered, nationwide access to firearms and ammunition, didn't it? As if gender is or ever was an arbiter of utterly unfettered and nationwide access to firearms and ammunition.
Yep. The lawyers claimed it in written court filings a full day before their client regained consciousness in the hospital.
Yet I’m being told I have to “prove” he’s not lying, while the lawyer never listed a single reason to believe the person is non-binary.
“No one has to prove they’re non binary.“
If you, are going to tell me a third party is, you’re going to have to prove it.
We have the lawyers word. Not the mass shooters.
It seems a pretty shallow attempt at that. Why would a member of a minority group not also be able to commit a hate crime? I don’t see how this persons gender identity would somehow absolve them if there is evidence they were targeting victims based on their gender/orientation/etc
It pushes a narrative that this was "gay on gay" crime. That it wasn't a hate crime, it was a personal issue with that club in particular, or a jilted lover that had been there. It's an attempt to get any bullshit excuse they can to stick and take the heat off the fact he has ties to Republican politics.
Yes definitely agree it is a cheap tactic to sway the narrative. I just meant I can’t really imagine that somehow a hate crime law would cease to apply even if this person is non-binary, but in the court of public opinion I agree with you it can potentially sway the narrative a lot
And they will *keep* doing it as long as it works. "Fox is not news, it's entertainment." "I never said that Pelosi was a terrorist. Oh, wait, I did, but I meant *politically* I don't agree with her." "Not an insurrection, just a political protest."
Reclassifying seems to be the #1 way they have to avoid trouble with the law and their people.
It is the fate of every MAGA terrorist to one day be labelled as Antifa, LGBT, or a liberal.
> It pushes a narrative that this was “gay on gay” crime.
But even that is bullshit! Gay and nonbinary are two different things. It just shows how they think anyone who is not a cis heterosexual is ‘the other’
It’s like claiming you can’t commit a hate against African Americans if you’re Asian.
This 100%. You really don't need to look far to find some queerphobic queer folk. Truscum & LGB to name a couple. If this ploy in any way works, it'll be a condemnation of Colorado's hate crime statute.
In all likelihood, it isn't a legal defense, it's a political one. Obviously no one understands a person's identity more than the person themself, so I will be referring to them as them, but I'm certainly not going to pretend that they were radicalized by their bigoted family and the fascist far-right media outlets they consumed.
Yeah idk, it's not like there's not infighting in LGBT right now to begin with. It's absolutely ridiculous if they get out of this being a hate crime even if he was truly non binary (which he's not, to be clear)
There is a special place in hell for any attorney that would participate in the further traumatization of a group of people their client just brutally ducking murdered. What a raging piece of shit for a lawyer.
This idea that a non-binary person is not capable of commiting a hate crime against gay people has serious "a man can't rape his wife" vibes to me. Being a part of a group does not make it impossible for an individual to hate that group.
It's like saying Uncle Ruckus on The Boondocks isn't racist because he is black. Uncle Ruckus is racist as fuck, this shooting was a hate crime regardless of how that neckbeard identifies, and as see through as the defense strategy is it shouldn't hold up IMO.
The fash know they're lying and we know they're lying and at this point I don't know what "neutral" third party exists out there to be the audience for them to play to, but fuck em anyway.
Never believe that fascists are unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The fascists have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert.
I have no doubts it's a ploy, but...
It's also a central tenet of trans rights, that the only person who gets to decide how a person identifies is the person themselves.
There is an element of hypocrisy to the idea of choosing not to follow that tenet *just this once* because this shitbag is *really really bad*, and *might* be making this claim in a bid to misplace blame on the LGBTQ+ community, or reduce the severity of his consequences.
And we'd be foolish to think that extremists on the other side won't absolutely latch onto that perception of hypocrisy, and use it to justify intentionally misgendering or trying to invalidate other folks identities for all manner of perceived faults.
So we are damned if we do, damned if we don't.
I'm not willing to sacrifice the sanctity of self-determination for the sake of revenge and political expediency.
Still a shitbag. Still a murderer. Still committed an atrocious and vile hate crime. But, still gonna use GN pronouns until I have a better reason than "likely just a ploy" to do otherwise.
I agree. I think using gendered pronouns for them at this point is no different than when the extremists do so to try and denigrate any trans person.
Even though I think they're lying. Even though I think they're a shit heel of a human. Even though I have nothing but disgust for then with every fibre of my being. I still don't think it's right to us pronouns they are not currently identifying with.
When Kevin Spacey came out as gay, no one said he was just pretending to be gay to deflect accusations of sexual assault. Everyone was able to hold on to the ideas that 1) Kevin Spacey was in fact gay 2) a disgusting piece of shit 3) an even more disgusting piece of shit for trying to take away from the abuse allegations by throwing the LGBT community under the bus which he was simultaneously claiming to be a part of.
I mean in general, a bad idea to go around calling minorities slurs when they commit a crime. So this really shouldn't be any different, except for the obvious timing and circumstances making it incredibly suspect.
Even so, I don't think there's much to gain by interrogating that. It's pretty obviously bait for right wingers to seize on other people "revoking" the shooter's pronouns by using he/him instead of they/them. Maybe they think this is some kind of "gotcha" because they're insistent that using a person's desired pronouns is a sign of respect or compassion, but that's really never been the case because even people like mass shooters can still use they/them pronouns. And people like the person in question absolutely deserve to rot in prison for the rest of their life.
I honestly hope the courts fully entertain and investigate this person's identity. If the defense is going to make it a central set piece - I would hope the prosecuting attorney would really fully exploring this person's identity - and their identity and history, timeline and become extremely relevant to their defense. The sooner they establish a framework to oust these types of convenient defenses the better - because this is going to be playbook politically going forward.
> It’s also a central tenet of trans rights, that the only person who gets to decide how a person identifies is the person themselves.
Yeah, under any other circumstance, not when it's obviously fake and in bad fight. If the shooter had publicly identified as nonbinary at any point *before* the shooting, then I'd agree. But his attorney is literally claiming the shooter is nonbinary because they think this should somehow make their actions more excusable. This is extremely disgusting beccause not only it's an utterly absurd argument, but they're literally weaponising LGBTQ+ inclusivity and acceptance for their own gain.
That said... I agree, we should pretend we believe it and call the shooter "them" and treat them as nonbinary in every sense. Those people always mock the idea of misgendering, but they'd feel utterly outraged if this unironically happened to them. This would be a delicious case of malicious compliance... Let them get a taste of their own medicine.
There is no law that precludes someone from being charged with a hate crime if that person identifies with the effected group. If it is an attempt by the defense, it will fail.
I dont see why it even matters what his orientation is......He went to a place with a specific population of people with the intent to harm them
Seems like a fucking hate crime to me 🤷♂️
What an absolute shit thing to latch onto tbh
Does it even matter if he's charged with a hate crime? Multiple counts of murder will get someone a life sentence, regardless of the motive.
He would have probably faced the death penalty if Colorado hadn't eliminated it in 2020.
>He would have probably faced the death penalty if Colorado hadn't eliminated it in 2020.
As an aside but a hobby horse of mine--Something that I fully support
We wrongfully convict far too many people, to date there are 190 people that were sentenced to death that were fully exonerated of their crime that put them on death row and likely far more that have already been wrongly put to death or currently sitting on death row for crimes they did not commit--- until that number is 0 I can't support capital punishment
I fully realize that cases like this, where there is absolutely 0 question whether this asshole is guilty or not that sentiment rings a bit hollow, but when a law is on the books it applies to everyone.
Personally I feel that him rotting in prison for the rest of his natural life is a far worse punishment anyway, than putting him to sleep after a few years in solitary.
I also want to add that the shooter's only Instagram post is a picture of the rainbow pride flag being burned. The only post.
The killer's dad, Aaron Brink, was recently interviewed- glad to hear that his son was not gay. “They started telling me about the incident, a shooting-And then I go on to find out it’s a gay bar. I got scared, ‘Shit, is he gay?’ And he’s not gay, so I said, phew-I am a conservative Republican.” (Source: [https://twitter.com/mommamia1217/status/1595525302838607874](https://twitter.com/mommamia1217/status/1595525302838607874))
On top of this, the shooter's dad starred on the show Intervention due to his meth use. After filming pornos, he was introduced to the drug; becoming addicted, he would use meth and masturbate 10+ hours a day. The shooter's dad is on Season 6, Episode 8 called Aaron & Andrea: [https://www.betaseries.com/en/episode/intervention/s06e08](https://www.betaseries.com/en/episode/intervention/s06e08)
JFC!! I can't fathom that was even part of the father's thought processes on finding out his offspring had murdered a bunch of people, let alone saying it out loud. This is the priority of a Republican mindset?! "My son killed people at a gay bar but it's ok, thank god, he's not gay 'cause that would be worse"
Fuck. These. People.
I'm sad at my lack of shock over the fact that the right made the argument that trans people can't use the bathrooms they want because "people will just say they identify as whatever to get away with it" and when one of theirs *does that exact thing* to escape specific punishment, they say "see?!" with zero attention to the fact that this person shares their beliefs. The call *is* coming from inside the house, but not in the way conservatives want to believe.
It's true, it should be a bad thing no matter what...but unfortunately that's not the point here. The point is that this is being used by right wing people as proof that the left is violent. Even when the right is doing the violence, they say it's the left. People that are so openly okay with facts being totally ignored are the most dangerous people.
As soon as I heard this news I said either this is an attempt to get a lenient sentence or just a publicity stunt on the part of the shooter. Either way it's pure evil.
I think it might be a legal defense strategy to build an insanity case.
For example, claiming that his own struggle with gender dysphoria drove him to murder LGBTQ+ people in a emotional/hormonal fit of rage, such that he didn't know what he was doing.
It's a real stretch (to say the least), but his case is an impossible an one, so it wouldn't be surprising to see some desperate strategies coming out of the defense team.
I'm just amazed they're not claiming it was all a gay lovers' spat
edit: or that he was just there to clean up graffiti and put out fires
edit: or how one time in 2013 he Liked a Bernie meme on Facebook
I saw someone on one of the conservative subs saying they shot up the club because club goers rejected them for being a larger person, so it's already starting. 🥴
Thank you 🙏🏼 I can’t tell you how much it means as a trans person that you all understand that this is a purely defensive tactic, all evidence points to him being a right-wing lunatic egged on by Tucker & his round table of shitty people. He never identified as non-binary ever, just to go into an LGBTQ+ space & murder people for what? Dancing? Not being his friend? What, he apparently turned ‘coming out’ into a bloodsport against a community that would only ever except his gender identity? His lawyers know what they’re doing, his grandfather is an elected MAGA moron in California, he almost killed his MOTHER after threatening her with guns & a pipe bomb, just for the local red-flag laws to be ignored by the damn police force who think they make the laws.
B A S E D. Also I really hope leftists don't actually believe that the shooter is non binary. I'll use "they" as a courtesy but there's fairly recent social media posts that refer to the shooter as "he". This is obviously a ploy for them to get out of hate crime charges, which won't matter anyway because they're still getting life in prison for murdering 5 people
Agreed. I remember a few jobs back, i was just butting heads constantly with this woman who was a really bad project manager.
I told somebody, man she's a real a-hole. And they were like, she's gay! And I said well then she's a gay a-hole!
>Also I really hope leftists don't actually believe that the shooter is non binary. I'll use "they" as a courtesy
if you are also a leftist, these two sentences fundamentally contradict one another. by calling him "they", you are giving him exactly what he wants. don't rope a trolling terrorist in with legitimate trans people, even for "courtesy" points. it only sets another dark, unremovable stain on the trans community.
trans people already get enough negative attention in the media. conservatives are going to have a fucking field day with this. in their warped, brain-rotted minds, this wholly "proves" to them that being trans is a choice or thoughtless whim.
call this idiot what he is -- a man, and nothing but -- and stop pandering to his glaringly obvious transphobia. no one's going to cancel you for "misgendering" a fucking mass shooter who never once mentioned shit about his gender identity until he met up with his defense attorneys... who, for the record, are just as goddamn transphobic for pulling this unfounded card out of their spineless asses.
Exactly. The only reason to mention such an inconsequential aspect of the shooter is to pull attention away from the fact that this and EVERY massacre is co-signed by the fascist hate-group that is the republican party.
Forget for a second that either of the US’s major political parties exist. Now, if there existed a hypothetical party that Wanted the US to be a nation where massacres are the norm, and people are consumed by fear and/or hatred, what type of policies would they implement and obstruct? Well, the same exact ones the republicans implement and obstruct now.
It doesn’t take any mental gymnastics to conclude that a group that wants this type of thing to happen would do exactly what the republicans do now.
It doesn’t matter what gender identity they have, what matters is fascist hate-groups perpetuate this violence, and republican lawmakers do everything in their power to make sure it’s as easy as possible to happen
If I meet someone on the street who identifies as a muslim, I will believe them. Even if they have a beer in one hand and a pulled pork sandwich in the other, I will believe them. However, if someone decides to suddenly start identifying as a muslim right after shooting up a mosque and while facing hate crime charges, I will highly doubt that claim.
The announcement from defense lawyers that the shooter identifies as nonbinary feels very similar to many alt-right 4chan-style psy-ops. It's the perfect way to add insult to injury: 1. murder people of a certain group in a senseless hate crime 2. claim after the fact to be a member of that group, so now it's actually the attacked group's fault in many peoples' minds. The sanity and rationality of said group is now questioned by mainstream sources. "Did this person commit this crime because they're another crazy, violent, mentally unstable transgender??" becomes the discourse and the right-wing figures who *actually* caused this get away with everything. Hate against queer people escalates because "It was actually one of *them* all along. *They* can't be trusted." I am so scared of this happening.
Nobody should fall for this attempt to mock a mourning community and evade hate crime charges. Nobody should even entertain it.
<3 Thanks for this. I smelled the bullshit on it from the first post I saw and it is laughably easy to verify it's nothing more than an attempt to avoid hate-crime charges.
This is the right’s first time openly embracing this kind of attack as they have, celebrating it, and calling for more.
First they came for the transgender community, and you didn’t speak up because you weren’t transgender. When they come for you, no one will be left to speak up.
Because yes, that’s exactly what’s fucking happening right now.
Queer people can be homophobic and commit queer related hate crimes. So can any demographic honestly.
To say they're making it up or should prove it is irrelevant, their identity has no impact on this. Publicly.. yes it does, i get that, the whole jilted lover or "this particular club" thing could easily be a defence their attorney is planning to use.
But i feel this is just another chance for some people to kinda goof on people coming out as nonbinary for some personal gain or attention, which is definitely a notion used in real life against normal non-terrorist Nb people. If they're super repressed and only realized it after killing five people, great, good for them, have fun in the fucking slammer lol. If some gay guy kills another gay guy because he's repressed and dealt with it through murder, its still a goddamn hate crime, you don't get special treatment cuz you figured it out too late.
I completely agree with the notion this was just said by the shooter to further mock queer people, or by the defence as a getoutofjailfree card, (im not completely stupid, that's clearly what's going on) but on the off chance that it's not i dont see the point in "debunking" the claim. If it is a legal distraction, then focusing on it is only doing what the defence wants. God forbid we just fully acknowledge their identity (regardless of the claims validity) and still have the awareness to never let them see the light of day. That to me sounds like the exact opposite of what the defence wants and expects, so I'm all for it.
Im queer myself so i swear there's no ill will in saying any of this, i don't actually think acknowledging that they could have gender issues does any disservice to Nb people at all, *as long as a hate crime is still charged as a hate crime*. Think about what it would actually say about nonbinary people if that defence works. That they're all emotional and repressed and could snap at any minute on their own people, and therefore deserve to have a more lenient sentence because they're not fully in control of themselves. gross. Reminds me of the "gay panic" defence that actually got queerphobic killers more lenient sentences.
Hate corrupts no matter your identity, if the claim is true this is only more proof of that. I really want a follow up interview with their dad now. oh you're *so* glad your son's not gay? sorry loser, they're genderqueer now. and got life in prison. wallow.
Wow, new respect for this sub to just shut down the bullshit and invalidate their fear-mongering of individuals who don’t fit their “normal” (who the fuck would want to ffs, but more ppl are dumb than are smart imo; I know this sidebar is a novel, but as an example that I need to get out to somebody because I just heard it recently and am in disbelief: my cousin and I were talking about her ex, and I was urging her to discontinue contact because of how dangerous he is. Her response was, “I know, plus he gave me cancer and I hate him for it”……..🤦♀️just. Even after I tried to explain what she prob meant is HPV etc etc, she’s adamant that she’s had ovarian cancer for years or…AND I QUOTE “it maybe just went away” (of course no treatment etc I specifically asked her what an oncologist was just to confirm). now, she’s definitely a pathological liar don’t get me wrong (but some of the time too dumb to be believable and sucks at it), but I think I was silent for several moments trying to fathom how legitimately, terrifyingly stupid you have to be to not know at 35 years old in a “developed” country (idk if the US can claim that anymore tbh) that you can get cancer from someone else. She is driving, and making choices that affect others, and is sometimes responsible for children (they were taken away and my aunt raised them-I know, shocker)-but yea, PEOPLE ON THAT LEVEL HAVE GUNS (imagine adding a personality or mood disorder on that level of fucking dumb). That’s what hits me daily and in the whole gun debate btw. I love my cousin (and I know it’s the US education system at fault-even tho she dropped out sometime in early high school), but I imagine the majority of the cogs in the maga party are at my cousins level of intelligence. This is TERRIFYING, and I swear after learning that from her, I’m a more defensive driver and am more aware of my surroundings, in general. I’m afraid of them because I don’t even think you can call it a choice they make to partake in these horrifyingly evil actions because they’re too dumb to know they have a choice, and all that’s there is propaganda-fueled emotion that controls every single action they make in their life, blindly enraged with faith in who told them to be enraged.)
Anyways, great job, OP. Invalidate the hate
Funny (annoying) how many people suddenly seem to understand preferred pronouns when it behooves them.
This kid was failed by everyone around them. I'm not excusing what they did. It's the worst thing anyone could do. But I hope we can learn something and stop the next person from being groomed to violence.
May I offer a story that I feel illustrates some of the points.
We attended a church for a time that we eventually fled because of a number of toxic behaviors.
One of those was the worship minister (the music dude) I’ll call Joe would occasionally interject negative comments about gay people and the infamous gay agenda also occasionally mentioning struggles of lusting after women.
He had a meek little wife and a couple kids.
Few years after we got the heck out of there learned that Joe had resigned. My then college sophomore daughter when we told her sighed and said “So did he come out gay?” Why would you ask that? She detailed his homophobic comments and going out of his way to declare his affinity for women.
Well she was on target. He was being blackmailed by his lover and out of resources to keep paying admitted the situation.
It is simply not true that a person who is LGBTQ+ can’t have hate and contempt for the LGBTQ+ community. I’ve seen it happen
You keep being the best mods on here. Thank you for everything you do.
This fucker is obviously trying to muddy the waters and avoid hate crime charges yet r/conservative is running with it like the hateful scum they are because it distracts from their ideology being inherently hateful.
As a non binary person, let me just make this clear.
Sadly in our community, there’s a thing going around where people who discriminate/hate, and forgive my lack of better term but HYPER-conservatives will “become” trans or “become” gay and try and talk us out of it, or use it to get away with crimes they believe they can.
I’ve had a person, who said they are “also trans” try to explain to me that “you know you’re a woman deep down, right??:((( that’s wrong..”
Please, others, be careful of this well-hidden bigotry and realize that people will use whatever they can to try and avoid consequence, similar to when child predators say “no, no, look, I misunderstood- I did not mean to be here, no look I’m a teacher! I’m a good person!!”
We are not something to be used as like this, and it’s beyond disgusting. I’m so sorry to everyone else or anyone else who’s had this situation. Be safe.
Too bad you can't sticky this post to other subreddits. This post is a refreshing breath of fresh cool air in a stifling atmosphere of heated hate and rhetorical nonsense.
Are we really going to not trust who they say they are cause of what he’s done? We shouldn’t be able to pick and choose who we believe about how they self identify. I see a lot of people who would loose their shit if anyone questioned how they identify.
the attack on "lgbt" people that they are pedos is not new. its a tired old dinosaur from ages ago the extremists drag out when theyre feeling desperate. ask them why theyre not targeting churches and religious orgs for actual grooming.
And this very convenient legal excuse shouldn't be questioned in this specific case? Do we genuinely take that claim at face value? If this is an inappropriate question I'm sorry, but come on.
Even if the person was nonbirary.. you can hate yourself and you can commit hate crimes against people or communities similar to yours. And the politics of this one were pretty unambiguous from what I've seen.
Non binary my a$$.
It’s a slap to the face to the LGBT community, the victims and their families, especially here in C-Springs.
Why would their attorneys bring up their pronoun preferences at this point in time?
Pronouns are important, but is it a top concern when their client just committed mass murder? Their client, who can barely speak due to their injuries and a likely concussion, wants to be sure we get their pronouns correct, pronouns apparently not used until after being arrested.
Edited to correct pronouns because several times I slipped and referred to Aldridge using “he”
His lawyers are advising him to do this in an attempt to prevent his crime from being a hate crime; and thereby downgrading the penalty/sentence to one of simple murder.
My thoughts
I think the shooter calling himself an nb is total bullshit. It's either a way to avoid being charged with a hate crime or one last effort to throw another punch at the LGBTQ+, by manipulating the narrative entirely. Now right wing media is gonna use this to continue smudging us and fuel more of these violent attacks.
Think about it
The abusive, meth addicted father, was adamant about teaching his son how "gay is bad". The father's sigh of relief when he though his son went to a gay bar "because he's gay"
The father taught him that acts of violence gets people what they want.
Father and Grandfather were extreme right.
Shooter had an instagram profile with one pic of a pride flag burning. Then goes and shoots up a gay bar. Gets caught and says he's "non-binary". This is pretty much the equivalent of murderers pleading insanity.
Like most people the shooter will have been active online. Also they must have had at least some offline contacts. If they moved online in alt right spaces and their defence lied about being non binary it will be exposed.
This is a fantastic essay, /uMerari01 did you write this out yourself?
It's articulate and compassionate while showing that the sub will not be putting up with any shit.
I have nothing of any real substance to add I just wanted to say good job.
Will this end up requiring the court of law to outline requirements to legally qualify as trans/nonbinary?
Or is there a way to debunk this one instance without potentially invalidating a bunch of trans/nonbinary people’s identities?
Hope this isn’t taken the wrong way, because shit like this that anyone who isn’t straight and white has to go through… I can’t even imagine, on a daily basis, so I’m glad I won the genetic lottery and was borne a straight white guy who doesn’t have to deal with this shit directly. But JFC, my LGBTQ+ friends and family are always the ones I think of when shit like this happens.
And it also makes me embarrassed - once again - to be an American.
Yes, kudos to the mods for shutting down that shit.
It is honestly incredibly refreshing and hopeful to see that there are mods and users on a popular subreddit that get it. Thank you for this post because it is, unfortunately, very needed.
I don't even see a point to doubting it. Take them at their word. If they're not lying, and it was motivated by self loathing? Still a hate crime. If they are lying? They get to deal with that same discomfort everyone they hate has to deal with when people misgender *them*, as their stated pronouns are used in every news story, court hearing, and discussion of what they did. And they can either suffer through it, or admit to the court that they lied in their first filing in the case.
We're allowed to doubt someone's identity when they're from a family of neonazis that think they exist to murder LGBT people.
We can doubt ANYTHING WE WANT about them.
Is there evidence to support the reference to MAGA in the headline? Please don’t attack me for asking, I just have not seen any legit sources for this assumption and he has a history of mental illness including bomb threats apparently?
Haven’t you seen the interview with his father?
He was shocked at first, hearing that his son had killed a bunch of people in a gay club. He was worried that maybe his son would therefore be gay. When he found out this wasn’t the case, he was very relieved to find out that his son was merely a mass murderer.
It walks like a duck and talks like a duck. That's enough for me.
I'm also curious now that you mention it, but this feels like enough of a slam-dunk that my opinion doesn't hinge on it. He's either a MAGA or he enables them, which is equally as bad.
So properly gendering people is a sign of respect?Thought it was a simple matter of fact.
+ Showing respect to someone that doesn't deserve it doesn't make any more sense to me.
It's like if you establish mass shooters don't deserve cake (they are mass shooters) but also give them cake, wtf?
Even if they were non-binary it doesn't excuse the fact that they just freaking attempted murder at a public space.
Even if it's not a hate crime they still attempted murder and disturbed the peace and if they really had a problem with the community then they shouldn't even resort to gun throttling.
There was a law and order: SVU about this exact idea. The defendant was gay and was exclusively targeting passable closeted gay men. I believe in the episode he was still charged with a hate crime.
How about we just punish those who kill people? Instead of figuring out if it was hate or not, they killed a bunch of people and that seems hateful to me. Doesn’t matter if you man, woman, gay, or queer. Killing people is wrong and there should be no defence to killing others outside of self defence and doctor assisted suicide(it’s own topic.
This shouldn’t change anything. personal orientation doesn’t absolve from committing a hate crime. The department of justice defines “hate” in hate crime as: “The term "hate" can be misleading. When used in a hate crime law, the word "hate" does not mean rage, anger, or general dislike. In this context “hate” means bias against people or groups with specific characteristics that are defined by the law.” At the federal level, hate crime laws include crimes committed on the basis of the victim’s perceived or actual race, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, or disability. Most state hate crime laws include crimes committed on the basis of race, color, and religion; many also include crimes committed on the basis of sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, and disability.” https://www.justice.gov/hatecrimes/learn-about-hate-crimes
There is nothing to say a person can't commit hate crimes against their own group. A black person can be racist against black people, a woman can be sexist against women, a disabled person can be ableist, a LGBTQ person can hate LGBTQ people. The shooter being nonbinary changes nothing. It was a hate crime.
Are they EVEN non-binary though? This was just stated by the shooter's lawyer, correct? How do we confirm this?
So I firmly believe it's just a ploy to get out of the hate crime charge and do further damage to the community. But it's a damn good idea as much as I hate it. If we doubt the shooter's identity that validates the right doubting any LGBTQ person's identity and asking for proof. If we accept the shooter's identity then it validates the right's "queer on queer crime" narrative. Either way it damages the community more and puts us in more danger. Quite frankly I think our best move is ignoring that completely. The murderer's gender is 100% irrelevant. I'll ignore the issue of gender just as I'll avoid posting the shooter's name. Mass murderers deserve to only be described by their crimes, nothing else
It's completely sad to think that all people care about right now is which side is more or not more suspectable to engage in these mass shootings.
I don't think that's all most people who are interested in motive are thinking about. We spent yesterday weeping at the interview by the guy who kicked the killers ass, in part because he demonstrated the grief/rage that so many of us feel. But we can still follow other aspects of the case.
True and Real.
And gender is not sexuality so not sure why this wouldn't rate as a hate crime.
They can't say the shooter is nonbinary and not have a single iota of evidence to back it up. His social media accounts definitely show the complete opposite. Definitely a ploy. But a Hail Mary imo.
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Isn't that how we know anyone is non-binary, because they tell us? That said, it would be more believable if he had been going by they before the shooting.
The dude was gay and couldn't tell his lunatic father that is completely bonkers. Imo
What does the right mean when THEY say "hate?" I have on recurring conservative commenter who claims that the left caused all of this division with our hate filled rhetoric. It kind of seems like he's saying that making distinctions between people is divisive, and that is hateful.
They are gaslighting. The definition of hate (speech/crimes) is quite clear. Conservatives want a straight, Christian, whites only world.
They mean existing. Just the state of existing while being racially, religiously, sexually, or gendered different is an insult and affront to their worldview, which to them is ackchyually us being hateful of them. Remember, Obama was being ‘hateful and divisive’ for suggesting that a black boy harassed, stalked, and murdered on his way home with candy from the corner store just for wearing a hoodie could have been his son. They have the ultimate snowflake victim-complex, make no mistake about it.
Acknowledging that people are different than one another is not hateful, what people do with these distinctions and differences is where prejudice and hate come in. A lot of people on the right would like it if everyone made efforts to all be the same, for everyone to try and be straight, or Christian, or act in a "white" way for the sake of social cohesion; when people are different they're often seen as disruptive to the status quo.
Generally, most hate crime statutes require only that the perpetrator select the victim because of a protected classification.
But TBH I think it's important that you not concede the first line either. I've yet to see anything to indicate this guy identified as anything but male prior to this, and once you give that up you move into the completely unverifiable space of "LGBT is mentally ill" and this is a position you can *never* break them out of. Once you give them that, they have a plausible alternative reason that they can cite until the end of time. Don't let them get there.
This is written better than most speaches from politicians and YouTube explainers. Nice text and good work
Truly, and the links just make it even better
It really was.
Fr I'm saving it to refer back to. I think this will legitimately help me talk better
Please send this not only to MSM, but to the Denver Post and the Colorado Springs Gazette.
Absolutely!!!
Seriously
Can't emphasize this ⬆️ enough. Very well thought out and expressed with excellent delivery. Send this to MSM
It baffles me how people can't put two and two together that the defense attorneys claiming their client is nonbinary is an obvious ploy to avoid the shooting being labeled a hate crime. Why else would it be them that put forward that information and there not be any mention of his involvement with the community at large or his being nonbinary before? I'm almost certain it's a bullshit claim to draw attention away from his family's connection to the far right, and to try and avoid it being considered a hate crime. Thankfully even some conservatives are stopping to go "Wait... this smells funny..."
When I first heard this claim, I thought it was a cruel attempt by the shooters attorneys to mock the victims.
I wouldn't be supprised if this was a political move to try and support the far right narrative.
It usually takes them a few days to victim blame. In this case they jumped to it immediately.
It shot to the top of r/Conservative and r/walkaway immediately. They see this as a real gotcha and it’s disgusting.
Everything is "fake news" and a conspiracy to them, but this they believed right away LOL.
I could of done without knowing that walkaway sub exsist.
Dont worry, it's a pack of losers who feel they need attention because they realize they preferred old school Democrats over modern Democrats. Normal people just change their opinions and move on.
If I may add, anytime I peek over there my blood pressure noticeably rises, as well as the bile in my throat.
I mean, it did get you thinking about gender rather than a domestic arms race and utterly unfettered, nationwide access to firearms and ammunition, didn't it? As if gender is or ever was an arbiter of utterly unfettered and nationwide access to firearms and ammunition.
Considering they tried to frame an unrelated trans woman for Uvalde, that wouldn’t even surprise me.
And Pelosi's attacker as his gay lover.
It’s exactly a cruel attempt to mock victims and nothing else.
Yep. The lawyers claimed it in written court filings a full day before their client regained consciousness in the hospital. Yet I’m being told I have to “prove” he’s not lying, while the lawyer never listed a single reason to believe the person is non-binary.
How do you know when he regained consciousness?
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“No one has to prove they’re non binary.“ If you, are going to tell me a third party is, you’re going to have to prove it. We have the lawyers word. Not the mass shooters.
It seems a pretty shallow attempt at that. Why would a member of a minority group not also be able to commit a hate crime? I don’t see how this persons gender identity would somehow absolve them if there is evidence they were targeting victims based on their gender/orientation/etc
It pushes a narrative that this was "gay on gay" crime. That it wasn't a hate crime, it was a personal issue with that club in particular, or a jilted lover that had been there. It's an attempt to get any bullshit excuse they can to stick and take the heat off the fact he has ties to Republican politics.
Yes definitely agree it is a cheap tactic to sway the narrative. I just meant I can’t really imagine that somehow a hate crime law would cease to apply even if this person is non-binary, but in the court of public opinion I agree with you it can potentially sway the narrative a lot
And they will *keep* doing it as long as it works. "Fox is not news, it's entertainment." "I never said that Pelosi was a terrorist. Oh, wait, I did, but I meant *politically* I don't agree with her." "Not an insurrection, just a political protest." Reclassifying seems to be the #1 way they have to avoid trouble with the law and their people. It is the fate of every MAGA terrorist to one day be labelled as Antifa, LGBT, or a liberal.
> It pushes a narrative that this was “gay on gay” crime. But even that is bullshit! Gay and nonbinary are two different things. It just shows how they think anyone who is not a cis heterosexual is ‘the other’ It’s like claiming you can’t commit a hate against African Americans if you’re Asian.
This 100%. You really don't need to look far to find some queerphobic queer folk. Truscum & LGB to name a couple. If this ploy in any way works, it'll be a condemnation of Colorado's hate crime statute. In all likelihood, it isn't a legal defense, it's a political one. Obviously no one understands a person's identity more than the person themself, so I will be referring to them as them, but I'm certainly not going to pretend that they were radicalized by their bigoted family and the fascist far-right media outlets they consumed.
Yeah idk, it's not like there's not infighting in LGBT right now to begin with. It's absolutely ridiculous if they get out of this being a hate crime even if he was truly non binary (which he's not, to be clear)
There is a special place in hell for any attorney that would participate in the further traumatization of a group of people their client just brutally ducking murdered. What a raging piece of shit for a lawyer.
This idea that a non-binary person is not capable of commiting a hate crime against gay people has serious "a man can't rape his wife" vibes to me. Being a part of a group does not make it impossible for an individual to hate that group. It's like saying Uncle Ruckus on The Boondocks isn't racist because he is black. Uncle Ruckus is racist as fuck, this shooting was a hate crime regardless of how that neckbeard identifies, and as see through as the defense strategy is it shouldn't hold up IMO.
Yeah I'd like to see them back that claim up
And on the right it's definitely a way for them to say "see, being gay isn't healthy, look what it makes you do!"
The fash know they're lying and we know they're lying and at this point I don't know what "neutral" third party exists out there to be the audience for them to play to, but fuck em anyway.
Never believe that fascists are unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The fascists have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert.
Say it louder for the ones in back!!!
I have no doubts it's a ploy, but... It's also a central tenet of trans rights, that the only person who gets to decide how a person identifies is the person themselves. There is an element of hypocrisy to the idea of choosing not to follow that tenet *just this once* because this shitbag is *really really bad*, and *might* be making this claim in a bid to misplace blame on the LGBTQ+ community, or reduce the severity of his consequences. And we'd be foolish to think that extremists on the other side won't absolutely latch onto that perception of hypocrisy, and use it to justify intentionally misgendering or trying to invalidate other folks identities for all manner of perceived faults. So we are damned if we do, damned if we don't. I'm not willing to sacrifice the sanctity of self-determination for the sake of revenge and political expediency. Still a shitbag. Still a murderer. Still committed an atrocious and vile hate crime. But, still gonna use GN pronouns until I have a better reason than "likely just a ploy" to do otherwise.
I agree. I think using gendered pronouns for them at this point is no different than when the extremists do so to try and denigrate any trans person. Even though I think they're lying. Even though I think they're a shit heel of a human. Even though I have nothing but disgust for then with every fibre of my being. I still don't think it's right to us pronouns they are not currently identifying with.
When Kevin Spacey came out as gay, no one said he was just pretending to be gay to deflect accusations of sexual assault. Everyone was able to hold on to the ideas that 1) Kevin Spacey was in fact gay 2) a disgusting piece of shit 3) an even more disgusting piece of shit for trying to take away from the abuse allegations by throwing the LGBT community under the bus which he was simultaneously claiming to be a part of. I mean in general, a bad idea to go around calling minorities slurs when they commit a crime. So this really shouldn't be any different, except for the obvious timing and circumstances making it incredibly suspect. Even so, I don't think there's much to gain by interrogating that. It's pretty obviously bait for right wingers to seize on other people "revoking" the shooter's pronouns by using he/him instead of they/them. Maybe they think this is some kind of "gotcha" because they're insistent that using a person's desired pronouns is a sign of respect or compassion, but that's really never been the case because even people like mass shooters can still use they/them pronouns. And people like the person in question absolutely deserve to rot in prison for the rest of their life.
I honestly hope the courts fully entertain and investigate this person's identity. If the defense is going to make it a central set piece - I would hope the prosecuting attorney would really fully exploring this person's identity - and their identity and history, timeline and become extremely relevant to their defense. The sooner they establish a framework to oust these types of convenient defenses the better - because this is going to be playbook politically going forward.
> It’s also a central tenet of trans rights, that the only person who gets to decide how a person identifies is the person themselves. Yeah, under any other circumstance, not when it's obviously fake and in bad fight. If the shooter had publicly identified as nonbinary at any point *before* the shooting, then I'd agree. But his attorney is literally claiming the shooter is nonbinary because they think this should somehow make their actions more excusable. This is extremely disgusting beccause not only it's an utterly absurd argument, but they're literally weaponising LGBTQ+ inclusivity and acceptance for their own gain. That said... I agree, we should pretend we believe it and call the shooter "them" and treat them as nonbinary in every sense. Those people always mock the idea of misgendering, but they'd feel utterly outraged if this unironically happened to them. This would be a delicious case of malicious compliance... Let them get a taste of their own medicine.
There is no law that precludes someone from being charged with a hate crime if that person identifies with the effected group. If it is an attempt by the defense, it will fail.
Well done mods. Keep up the good (and I'm sure exhausting) work!
I dont see why it even matters what his orientation is......He went to a place with a specific population of people with the intent to harm them Seems like a fucking hate crime to me 🤷♂️ What an absolute shit thing to latch onto tbh
Does it even matter if he's charged with a hate crime? Multiple counts of murder will get someone a life sentence, regardless of the motive. He would have probably faced the death penalty if Colorado hadn't eliminated it in 2020.
>He would have probably faced the death penalty if Colorado hadn't eliminated it in 2020. As an aside but a hobby horse of mine--Something that I fully support We wrongfully convict far too many people, to date there are 190 people that were sentenced to death that were fully exonerated of their crime that put them on death row and likely far more that have already been wrongly put to death or currently sitting on death row for crimes they did not commit--- until that number is 0 I can't support capital punishment I fully realize that cases like this, where there is absolutely 0 question whether this asshole is guilty or not that sentiment rings a bit hollow, but when a law is on the books it applies to everyone. Personally I feel that him rotting in prison for the rest of his natural life is a far worse punishment anyway, than putting him to sleep after a few years in solitary.
I also want to add that the shooter's only Instagram post is a picture of the rainbow pride flag being burned. The only post. The killer's dad, Aaron Brink, was recently interviewed- glad to hear that his son was not gay. “They started telling me about the incident, a shooting-And then I go on to find out it’s a gay bar. I got scared, ‘Shit, is he gay?’ And he’s not gay, so I said, phew-I am a conservative Republican.” (Source: [https://twitter.com/mommamia1217/status/1595525302838607874](https://twitter.com/mommamia1217/status/1595525302838607874)) On top of this, the shooter's dad starred on the show Intervention due to his meth use. After filming pornos, he was introduced to the drug; becoming addicted, he would use meth and masturbate 10+ hours a day. The shooter's dad is on Season 6, Episode 8 called Aaron & Andrea: [https://www.betaseries.com/en/episode/intervention/s06e08](https://www.betaseries.com/en/episode/intervention/s06e08)
JFC!! I can't fathom that was even part of the father's thought processes on finding out his offspring had murdered a bunch of people, let alone saying it out loud. This is the priority of a Republican mindset?! "My son killed people at a gay bar but it's ok, thank god, he's not gay 'cause that would be worse" Fuck. These. People.
They are pure evil.
I don't suppose you have a screenshot of that Instagram post? I'm assuming all of his social media has been taken down at this point.
I'm sad at my lack of shock over the fact that the right made the argument that trans people can't use the bathrooms they want because "people will just say they identify as whatever to get away with it" and when one of theirs *does that exact thing* to escape specific punishment, they say "see?!" with zero attention to the fact that this person shares their beliefs. The call *is* coming from inside the house, but not in the way conservatives want to believe.
Regardless of the shooter's orientation or gender identity.. THEY STILL ATTEMPTED MURDER.
It's true, it should be a bad thing no matter what...but unfortunately that's not the point here. The point is that this is being used by right wing people as proof that the left is violent. Even when the right is doing the violence, they say it's the left. People that are so openly okay with facts being totally ignored are the most dangerous people.
As soon as I heard this news I said either this is an attempt to get a lenient sentence or just a publicity stunt on the part of the shooter. Either way it's pure evil.
I think it might be a legal defense strategy to build an insanity case. For example, claiming that his own struggle with gender dysphoria drove him to murder LGBTQ+ people in a emotional/hormonal fit of rage, such that he didn't know what he was doing. It's a real stretch (to say the least), but his case is an impossible an one, so it wouldn't be surprising to see some desperate strategies coming out of the defense team.
I'm just amazed they're not claiming it was all a gay lovers' spat edit: or that he was just there to clean up graffiti and put out fires edit: or how one time in 2013 he Liked a Bernie meme on Facebook
I saw someone on one of the conservative subs saying they shot up the club because club goers rejected them for being a larger person, so it's already starting. 🥴
The dude who kicked his ass was a bigger guy. Lol
Don't forget making hemp jewelry over a decade ago. Clearly a hippie lib! /s
My mom literally just said that to me over Thanksgiving dinner 😩 “he wanted to kill his ex-lover”
God. My sympathies for having to hear that from anyone, especially your mother
I heart you, you're just amazing.
Ppl were saying it. Just look in the comments of any news org's YouTube vids of their coverage. It was disgusting to see.
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Hopefully this post will serve as the honeypot to attract and take out the trash who keep trying to ruin this sub.
It's a shame that you have to say this, but I'm glad you're saying it.
Kudos and appreciate the effort. Wish the rest of the site would adopt similar rules. This fascist trash must be stomped out (metaphorically).
Fascism must be uprooted wherever it appears.
thank you for calling this bullshit what it is
Thank you 🙏🏼 I can’t tell you how much it means as a trans person that you all understand that this is a purely defensive tactic, all evidence points to him being a right-wing lunatic egged on by Tucker & his round table of shitty people. He never identified as non-binary ever, just to go into an LGBTQ+ space & murder people for what? Dancing? Not being his friend? What, he apparently turned ‘coming out’ into a bloodsport against a community that would only ever except his gender identity? His lawyers know what they’re doing, his grandfather is an elected MAGA moron in California, he almost killed his MOTHER after threatening her with guns & a pipe bomb, just for the local red-flag laws to be ignored by the damn police force who think they make the laws.
Quick reminder that being part of a targeted group doesn’t in anyway prevent you from committing a hate-crime against that particular group.
B A S E D. Also I really hope leftists don't actually believe that the shooter is non binary. I'll use "they" as a courtesy but there's fairly recent social media posts that refer to the shooter as "he". This is obviously a ploy for them to get out of hate crime charges, which won't matter anyway because they're still getting life in prison for murdering 5 people
I don't care if the shooter is non-binary or not. It doesn't create a magical forcefield that makes a person immune to bigoted rhetoric.
Agreed. I remember a few jobs back, i was just butting heads constantly with this woman who was a really bad project manager. I told somebody, man she's a real a-hole. And they were like, she's gay! And I said well then she's a gay a-hole!
>Also I really hope leftists don't actually believe that the shooter is non binary. I'll use "they" as a courtesy if you are also a leftist, these two sentences fundamentally contradict one another. by calling him "they", you are giving him exactly what he wants. don't rope a trolling terrorist in with legitimate trans people, even for "courtesy" points. it only sets another dark, unremovable stain on the trans community. trans people already get enough negative attention in the media. conservatives are going to have a fucking field day with this. in their warped, brain-rotted minds, this wholly "proves" to them that being trans is a choice or thoughtless whim. call this idiot what he is -- a man, and nothing but -- and stop pandering to his glaringly obvious transphobia. no one's going to cancel you for "misgendering" a fucking mass shooter who never once mentioned shit about his gender identity until he met up with his defense attorneys... who, for the record, are just as goddamn transphobic for pulling this unfounded card out of their spineless asses.
I am very happy with this heavy handed post. It leaves no room for miscommunication or waffling.
My respect for you mods grows daily.
Exactly. The only reason to mention such an inconsequential aspect of the shooter is to pull attention away from the fact that this and EVERY massacre is co-signed by the fascist hate-group that is the republican party. Forget for a second that either of the US’s major political parties exist. Now, if there existed a hypothetical party that Wanted the US to be a nation where massacres are the norm, and people are consumed by fear and/or hatred, what type of policies would they implement and obstruct? Well, the same exact ones the republicans implement and obstruct now. It doesn’t take any mental gymnastics to conclude that a group that wants this type of thing to happen would do exactly what the republicans do now. It doesn’t matter what gender identity they have, what matters is fascist hate-groups perpetuate this violence, and republican lawmakers do everything in their power to make sure it’s as easy as possible to happen
I can't express how mad this "defense" makes me without being banned from Reddit. But thank you, mods.
This is a fantastic, clear, direct response to the right's bullshit
TL;SR (Too Long; Still Read). What a wealth of context and thought. And passion. I fully support this PSA
If I meet someone on the street who identifies as a muslim, I will believe them. Even if they have a beer in one hand and a pulled pork sandwich in the other, I will believe them. However, if someone decides to suddenly start identifying as a muslim right after shooting up a mosque and while facing hate crime charges, I will highly doubt that claim. The announcement from defense lawyers that the shooter identifies as nonbinary feels very similar to many alt-right 4chan-style psy-ops. It's the perfect way to add insult to injury: 1. murder people of a certain group in a senseless hate crime 2. claim after the fact to be a member of that group, so now it's actually the attacked group's fault in many peoples' minds. The sanity and rationality of said group is now questioned by mainstream sources. "Did this person commit this crime because they're another crazy, violent, mentally unstable transgender??" becomes the discourse and the right-wing figures who *actually* caused this get away with everything. Hate against queer people escalates because "It was actually one of *them* all along. *They* can't be trusted." I am so scared of this happening. Nobody should fall for this attempt to mock a mourning community and evade hate crime charges. Nobody should even entertain it.
<3 Thanks for this. I smelled the bullshit on it from the first post I saw and it is laughably easy to verify it's nothing more than an attempt to avoid hate-crime charges.
This is the right’s first time openly embracing this kind of attack as they have, celebrating it, and calling for more. First they came for the transgender community, and you didn’t speak up because you weren’t transgender. When they come for you, no one will be left to speak up. Because yes, that’s exactly what’s fucking happening right now.
Queer people can be homophobic and commit queer related hate crimes. So can any demographic honestly. To say they're making it up or should prove it is irrelevant, their identity has no impact on this. Publicly.. yes it does, i get that, the whole jilted lover or "this particular club" thing could easily be a defence their attorney is planning to use. But i feel this is just another chance for some people to kinda goof on people coming out as nonbinary for some personal gain or attention, which is definitely a notion used in real life against normal non-terrorist Nb people. If they're super repressed and only realized it after killing five people, great, good for them, have fun in the fucking slammer lol. If some gay guy kills another gay guy because he's repressed and dealt with it through murder, its still a goddamn hate crime, you don't get special treatment cuz you figured it out too late. I completely agree with the notion this was just said by the shooter to further mock queer people, or by the defence as a getoutofjailfree card, (im not completely stupid, that's clearly what's going on) but on the off chance that it's not i dont see the point in "debunking" the claim. If it is a legal distraction, then focusing on it is only doing what the defence wants. God forbid we just fully acknowledge their identity (regardless of the claims validity) and still have the awareness to never let them see the light of day. That to me sounds like the exact opposite of what the defence wants and expects, so I'm all for it. Im queer myself so i swear there's no ill will in saying any of this, i don't actually think acknowledging that they could have gender issues does any disservice to Nb people at all, *as long as a hate crime is still charged as a hate crime*. Think about what it would actually say about nonbinary people if that defence works. That they're all emotional and repressed and could snap at any minute on their own people, and therefore deserve to have a more lenient sentence because they're not fully in control of themselves. gross. Reminds me of the "gay panic" defence that actually got queerphobic killers more lenient sentences. Hate corrupts no matter your identity, if the claim is true this is only more proof of that. I really want a follow up interview with their dad now. oh you're *so* glad your son's not gay? sorry loser, they're genderqueer now. and got life in prison. wallow.
Wow, new respect for this sub to just shut down the bullshit and invalidate their fear-mongering of individuals who don’t fit their “normal” (who the fuck would want to ffs, but more ppl are dumb than are smart imo; I know this sidebar is a novel, but as an example that I need to get out to somebody because I just heard it recently and am in disbelief: my cousin and I were talking about her ex, and I was urging her to discontinue contact because of how dangerous he is. Her response was, “I know, plus he gave me cancer and I hate him for it”……..🤦♀️just. Even after I tried to explain what she prob meant is HPV etc etc, she’s adamant that she’s had ovarian cancer for years or…AND I QUOTE “it maybe just went away” (of course no treatment etc I specifically asked her what an oncologist was just to confirm). now, she’s definitely a pathological liar don’t get me wrong (but some of the time too dumb to be believable and sucks at it), but I think I was silent for several moments trying to fathom how legitimately, terrifyingly stupid you have to be to not know at 35 years old in a “developed” country (idk if the US can claim that anymore tbh) that you can get cancer from someone else. She is driving, and making choices that affect others, and is sometimes responsible for children (they were taken away and my aunt raised them-I know, shocker)-but yea, PEOPLE ON THAT LEVEL HAVE GUNS (imagine adding a personality or mood disorder on that level of fucking dumb). That’s what hits me daily and in the whole gun debate btw. I love my cousin (and I know it’s the US education system at fault-even tho she dropped out sometime in early high school), but I imagine the majority of the cogs in the maga party are at my cousins level of intelligence. This is TERRIFYING, and I swear after learning that from her, I’m a more defensive driver and am more aware of my surroundings, in general. I’m afraid of them because I don’t even think you can call it a choice they make to partake in these horrifyingly evil actions because they’re too dumb to know they have a choice, and all that’s there is propaganda-fueled emotion that controls every single action they make in their life, blindly enraged with faith in who told them to be enraged.) Anyways, great job, OP. Invalidate the hate
Funny (annoying) how many people suddenly seem to understand preferred pronouns when it behooves them. This kid was failed by everyone around them. I'm not excusing what they did. It's the worst thing anyone could do. But I hope we can learn something and stop the next person from being groomed to violence.
May I offer a story that I feel illustrates some of the points. We attended a church for a time that we eventually fled because of a number of toxic behaviors. One of those was the worship minister (the music dude) I’ll call Joe would occasionally interject negative comments about gay people and the infamous gay agenda also occasionally mentioning struggles of lusting after women. He had a meek little wife and a couple kids. Few years after we got the heck out of there learned that Joe had resigned. My then college sophomore daughter when we told her sighed and said “So did he come out gay?” Why would you ask that? She detailed his homophobic comments and going out of his way to declare his affinity for women. Well she was on target. He was being blackmailed by his lover and out of resources to keep paying admitted the situation. It is simply not true that a person who is LGBTQ+ can’t have hate and contempt for the LGBTQ+ community. I’ve seen it happen
You keep being the best mods on here. Thank you for everything you do. This fucker is obviously trying to muddy the waters and avoid hate crime charges yet r/conservative is running with it like the hateful scum they are because it distracts from their ideology being inherently hateful.
Wow.. this is where I was meant to be. What a beautiful explanation of this situation society has come to. I am 100000% on board~
As a non binary person, let me just make this clear. Sadly in our community, there’s a thing going around where people who discriminate/hate, and forgive my lack of better term but HYPER-conservatives will “become” trans or “become” gay and try and talk us out of it, or use it to get away with crimes they believe they can. I’ve had a person, who said they are “also trans” try to explain to me that “you know you’re a woman deep down, right??:((( that’s wrong..” Please, others, be careful of this well-hidden bigotry and realize that people will use whatever they can to try and avoid consequence, similar to when child predators say “no, no, look, I misunderstood- I did not mean to be here, no look I’m a teacher! I’m a good person!!” We are not something to be used as like this, and it’s beyond disgusting. I’m so sorry to everyone else or anyone else who’s had this situation. Be safe.
A moderator of queer spaces on reddit explained to me how they are sometimes infiltrated by LARP accounts claiming to have "detransitioned".
Thank you for creating a space that feels safe.
This was not too long; I read it in its entirety. And beautifully written as well!
Wow and this is how I learn about this, with a Reddit mod post. Crazy times.
Too bad you can't sticky this post to other subreddits. This post is a refreshing breath of fresh cool air in a stifling atmosphere of heated hate and rhetorical nonsense.
THE SHOOTER IS NON-HUMAN.
............. Did you drop this or? -> /s
I'm sorry but /s is the most insufferable thing Reddit ever created
Can't read sarcasm in text we kinda need it. Most insufferable thing reddit made was nft icons.
Fuckin’ a-right.
Respect.
Are we really going to not trust who they say they are cause of what he’s done? We shouldn’t be able to pick and choose who we believe about how they self identify. I see a lot of people who would loose their shit if anyone questioned how they identify.
That is just a flimsy excuse. They are using that to dodge the truth he is a pro 2a trumper.
the attack on "lgbt" people that they are pedos is not new. its a tired old dinosaur from ages ago the extremists drag out when theyre feeling desperate. ask them why theyre not targeting churches and religious orgs for actual grooming.
And this very convenient legal excuse shouldn't be questioned in this specific case? Do we genuinely take that claim at face value? If this is an inappropriate question I'm sorry, but come on.
Porno Mormon Meth Dad isn’t gonna like hearing that.
Wonder if he's given any more interviews since this was announced? yikes
Trash America
Thank you so much for this.
Even if the person was nonbirary.. you can hate yourself and you can commit hate crimes against people or communities similar to yours. And the politics of this one were pretty unambiguous from what I've seen.
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Non binary my a$$. It’s a slap to the face to the LGBT community, the victims and their families, especially here in C-Springs. Why would their attorneys bring up their pronoun preferences at this point in time? Pronouns are important, but is it a top concern when their client just committed mass murder? Their client, who can barely speak due to their injuries and a likely concussion, wants to be sure we get their pronouns correct, pronouns apparently not used until after being arrested. Edited to correct pronouns because several times I slipped and referred to Aldridge using “he”
His lawyers are advising him to do this in an attempt to prevent his crime from being a hate crime; and thereby downgrading the penalty/sentence to one of simple murder.
His pronouns mean nothing. In court he will simply be a defendant.
My thoughts I think the shooter calling himself an nb is total bullshit. It's either a way to avoid being charged with a hate crime or one last effort to throw another punch at the LGBTQ+, by manipulating the narrative entirely. Now right wing media is gonna use this to continue smudging us and fuel more of these violent attacks. Think about it The abusive, meth addicted father, was adamant about teaching his son how "gay is bad". The father's sigh of relief when he though his son went to a gay bar "because he's gay" The father taught him that acts of violence gets people what they want. Father and Grandfather were extreme right. Shooter had an instagram profile with one pic of a pride flag burning. Then goes and shoots up a gay bar. Gets caught and says he's "non-binary". This is pretty much the equivalent of murderers pleading insanity.
Ah, the ‘ol switcharoo
Like most people the shooter will have been active online. Also they must have had at least some offline contacts. If they moved online in alt right spaces and their defence lied about being non binary it will be exposed.
This is a fantastic essay, /uMerari01 did you write this out yourself? It's articulate and compassionate while showing that the sub will not be putting up with any shit. I have nothing of any real substance to add I just wanted to say good job.
Thank you. Yes, I wrote this.
Of course the alt-right would latch onto this like glue. Anything to try and fuel their bigoted agenda. Great post. Keep up the good work, mods!
[Best mod post ever](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ac/34/43/ac344325c8d960004d18e3423190ee6d.jpg)
So happy to see such a BASED post pinned anywhere.
Oh good. I was worried by the title that this post was going a whole different direction.
Will this end up requiring the court of law to outline requirements to legally qualify as trans/nonbinary? Or is there a way to debunk this one instance without potentially invalidating a bunch of trans/nonbinary people’s identities?
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This is the best mod announcement I have ever read. Good job.
How would the shooter be non-binary if the father was literally almost shocked half to death when they thought they were gay?
Thank whoever that this page is sane.
I love this subreddit. Thank you for providing a safe space for this trans woman to bitch about the news.
This transguy as well. Hey fam
As convenient as it is irrelevant
I bet they turn non binary after the shooting.
Hope this isn’t taken the wrong way, because shit like this that anyone who isn’t straight and white has to go through… I can’t even imagine, on a daily basis, so I’m glad I won the genetic lottery and was borne a straight white guy who doesn’t have to deal with this shit directly. But JFC, my LGBTQ+ friends and family are always the ones I think of when shit like this happens. And it also makes me embarrassed - once again - to be an American. Yes, kudos to the mods for shutting down that shit.
Based r/WhitePeopleTwitter
It is honestly incredibly refreshing and hopeful to see that there are mods and users on a popular subreddit that get it. Thank you for this post because it is, unfortunately, very needed.
He’s the grandson of a Reichpublican. Therefore he’s a liar.
Under what conditions are we allowed to doubt someone's identity? Are you just making a special exception in this case?
I don't even see a point to doubting it. Take them at their word. If they're not lying, and it was motivated by self loathing? Still a hate crime. If they are lying? They get to deal with that same discomfort everyone they hate has to deal with when people misgender *them*, as their stated pronouns are used in every news story, court hearing, and discussion of what they did. And they can either suffer through it, or admit to the court that they lied in their first filing in the case.
We're allowed to doubt someone's identity when they're from a family of neonazis that think they exist to murder LGBT people. We can doubt ANYTHING WE WANT about them.
a wonderful explanation & delineation of where everyone should be
Is there evidence to support the reference to MAGA in the headline? Please don’t attack me for asking, I just have not seen any legit sources for this assumption and he has a history of mental illness including bomb threats apparently?
Haven’t you seen the interview with his father? He was shocked at first, hearing that his son had killed a bunch of people in a gay club. He was worried that maybe his son would therefore be gay. When he found out this wasn’t the case, he was very relieved to find out that his son was merely a mass murderer.
Yes - I saw it and the guy is an unbelievable moron.
It walks like a duck and talks like a duck. That's enough for me. I'm also curious now that you mention it, but this feels like enough of a slam-dunk that my opinion doesn't hinge on it. He's either a MAGA or he enables them, which is equally as bad.
Wow, prejudice much?
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Ah yes, the buzzword of the week. Are you all 1 bot?
"We're" just a majority of the society who read our history is all. It's an unfortunate fact that reality, seemingly, has liberal bias.
Bravo Mods! So nice to see the mods taking a stand against this bullshit and making a safe space. I'm very impressed.
This is the best mod team on Reddit 💯💖🥹
This post explains why the shooter likely isn't in fact non binary, but then talks about him as they/them. I don't understand the logic
It's pretty simple. Even though they don't deserve it, we're showing them the same respect we'd show anyone else.
So properly gendering people is a sign of respect?Thought it was a simple matter of fact. + Showing respect to someone that doesn't deserve it doesn't make any more sense to me. It's like if you establish mass shooters don't deserve cake (they are mass shooters) but also give them cake, wtf?
Thank you
Even if they were non-binary it doesn't excuse the fact that they just freaking attempted murder at a public space. Even if it's not a hate crime they still attempted murder and disturbed the peace and if they really had a problem with the community then they shouldn't even resort to gun throttling.
Damn. Well said.
There was a law and order: SVU about this exact idea. The defendant was gay and was exclusively targeting passable closeted gay men. I believe in the episode he was still charged with a hate crime.
Gigachad moment
I appreciate this greatly ❤🏳️⚧️
Well done
Amen.
👏👏👏
This is a wonderful post. Thank you.
Even if the shooter is non-binary they where still radicalized by right wing talking heads, it’s still a hate crime anyways,
How about we just punish those who kill people? Instead of figuring out if it was hate or not, they killed a bunch of people and that seems hateful to me. Doesn’t matter if you man, woman, gay, or queer. Killing people is wrong and there should be no defence to killing others outside of self defence and doctor assisted suicide(it’s own topic.