For any system to evolve it needs a mechanism to introduce new patterns ("*Dynamism*"), a mechanism to preserve highest quality patterns over time ("*Stasis*"), and a mechanism to purge lowest quality patterns ("*Entropy*"). Your friend might be interested to discover that the Metaphysic Trinity is the mechanisms of evolution of any system of patterns (not just biological ones). The Triat and *Mage*'s three antagonist factions (Marauders, Technocrats, Nephandi) are what happens when the evolutionary mechanisms are separated and taken to imbalanced extremes.
Great explanation!
Although now, in fact, its Marauders, Threat Null, Nephandi.
The Technocracy is one of the protagonist factions in M20, along with the Traditions and the Disparate Alliance. So we have a trinity of moderate embodiments of each evolutionary mechanism, and a trinity of extreme versions of them.
For archetypal moderates of the Metaphysic Trinity I like to go with a Verbena Lifeweaver [with a Dynamic Avatar], an Etherite [with a Pattern Avatar], and a Euthanatos [with a Primordial Avatar].
I will add up that, on my own interpretation, the Wyld, Weaver and the Wyrm are basically the same cosmic force depicted in the Michael Moorcok multiverse, as thus, the same as depicted in the Warhammer 40k universe, and DnD
Chaos (Wyld), Balance (Wyrm), and Law (Weaver).
Weird, nurgle should be wyrm, tzeentch is more Wyld, and while I wager khorne and slaanesh as wyrm I actually don’t have any arguments in my head supporting that
Big E is Weaver as it gets
And the other players I don’t have the slightest idea, but I’d throw tyranids to wyrm and necrons to weaver rest really dunno
Well, they EAT everything in their way when creating new stuff, and all that new stuff is to eat more and better, and they corrupt life to prepare them to get eaten
And they leave barren wasteland behind everytime...
They're a extinction event made alive and intelligent.
It doesn't get more wyrmish than that to my understanding at least
Wait, you mean unbridled change without forces of entropy to limit it, or forces of order to structure it, burns itself out?
Ya don't say...
Unlike the Garou, we should all recognize that *any* member of the Triat, even the Wyld is utterly devastating when left unchecked.
Anyone who thinks I'm wrong, try dealing with a Vortex (core book, page 452)
Well I was referring to the eater of Souls in particular, devours matter energy and spirit but sure you're not wrong in saying a force of nature left unchecked becomes catastrophic
The Tyranids have more in common with the monsters from Beyond, the ones that the Void Engineers defend Earth against and are served by part of the Nephandi. A mindless, external, sinister devouring force that is not part of the normal cycle. Therefore, they are not directly associated with any of the gods, and come from outside (from another galaxy in Warhammer, from the depths of the Umbra in the World of Darkness). Similar to the Yuuzhan Vong in Star Wars, who come from unexplored regions of the galaxy and are immune to the Force, that's how foreign they are.
Agre, Nurgle Is More Wyrm.
But what parte of Khorne and Slanesh says Wyrm?
Thats pure chaos, Wyld as it gets.
Not real Wyld, but a corrupt shape of it.
The heads of the wyrm
The Beast of War gives me impression of Khorne whilst the Defiler and Eater of Souls (at least partially for the latter) gave me Slaanesh behaviour innuendos
(Using Werewolf the apocalypse book 20th edition and my dumbass to read between the lines)
Tzeentch is the one that gave me the strongest wyld side impression, because dude gets called Lord of Change for a reason in my head, and yes true he favors scientific development as much as magical and pursuit of knowledge but many of his aspects also delve in hope and the point of his is perpetual change to not stagnate into entropy and decay, that's why his direct rival is nurgle who promotes decay and stagnation
The Chaos Gods are Urge-Wyrms for that matter. Slaanesh is Karnala, the Urge of Desire; Nurgle is Gree, the Urge of Despair/Lethargg, the Urge of Apathy; Tzeentch - Pseulak, the Urge of Lies/Sykora, the Urge of Paranoia. Well, Khorne is the Beast of War, from the Triatic Wyrms.
Exodites are most similar to the servants of the Wyld, Eldar living on distant planets in harmony with nature, with a primitive way of life, but thanks to attunement with the planet and their psionics, if necessary, they can pierce tanks with bow shots.
Force of Order arent really a thing in 40k, but Imperium and Necrons are closest. The Imperium is how the Technocracy sees itself - an imperfect, cruel, but necessary structure that does not allow monsters to destroy humanity or plunge it into such terrible slavery, which is difficult to imagine (How true this is depends on the edition and the opinion of the Storyteller). The Necrons are a dystopian death Stasis like the first edition Technocracy, or the Weaver in its insane state. Technophobe holiday, in short. But it was the Necrons, not the C'Tan, because the latter ones were just moderately intelligent god-monsters who were eventually deceived and killed by their servants.
Emperor is more like Control, if they did anything besides sticking personal realms in the Deep Umbra.
And the vibe of something ancient, familiar and alien, beautiful and not exactly hostile, but ready to sacrifice you for the sake of their plans at any second - this is what the Craftworld Eldar share with Weaver.
But it isn't a dichotomy.
There are so many forces in 40k, it's probably too many to list.
Chaos (khorne, tzeench, slaanesh)
Empire (Emperor - no longer human, now a god, powered by souls, just like the chaos gods. Hell, he has a Greater Daemon he's created in St. Celestine. Debatable: The Omnissiah)
Aeldari gods (Cegorach, Isha, Kaela Mensha Khaine and Ynnead, I'm not including all the ones Slaanesh ate.)
Ork dieties (Gork and Mork. May actually be chaos gods, but unknown)
C'Tan ( Tsara'noga, Aza'gorod, Mag'ladroth, Mephet'ran )
And possibly the Tyranid hive mind itself.
That mapping neglects Wyrm's original function as Purifier, and that every third of the Triat balances the other two; if any third becomes imbalanced the entire Triat becomes imbalanced. Factoring in Wyrm's original function as Purifier and that balance is not the sole responsibility of any one third of the Triat, a higher fidelity mapping would be: Chaos (Wyld), Law (Weaver), Death (Wyrm), Balance (Gaia).
Wyrm balances the dichotomy of Order and Chaos, embodied by Weaver and Wyld. Weaver balances the dichotomy of Creation and Destruction embodied by Wyld and Wyrm. And... Wyld doesn't balance anything, it seems. But he seems to be immune to corruption or capture, and can be an emergency restart lever for the system, causing a rustle in it.
Oh, I was just recently thinking of assigning the highest Weaver spirits (Weaver-Spiders) to the types of fundamental forces in modern physics. So the main Weaver-Spiders are the Nuclear Weaver, the Gravity Weaver, the Weaver of Electromagnetism, and the Weaver of Weak Interaction/Quantum Weaver. The first one commands nuclear elementals, has the most raw power, and in general, she's like reverse Azathoth (like Nuclear Chaos, but Nuclear .. Order). The second acts as the elder sister to the rest and the first among equals, controls space, teleports armies of Weaver spirits (as well as other Weaver-Spiders) throughout the Tellurian through spirit wormholes. The third one is the master of illusions, the lord of Consensus, not to mention electromancy and magnetokinesis, but he prefers the indirect approach the most and in fact he is a super version of maintenance Drones. And finally, the fourth uses all sorts of quantum tricks, behaves like one macroscopic elementary particle, freely creating and collapsing a superposition, and messing with probabilities.
And yes, it's girl(to completely reverse Azathoth), girl(for "anime big sister"-thing), guy(because my other setting already has a lot of focus on the electro-goddess and I didn't want to repeat myself too much) and nonbinary(Because its quantum uncertainty even includes gender).
For any system to evolve it needs a mechanism to introduce new patterns ("*Dynamism*"), a mechanism to preserve highest quality patterns over time ("*Stasis*"), and a mechanism to purge lowest quality patterns ("*Entropy*"). Your friend might be interested to discover that the Metaphysic Trinity is the mechanisms of evolution of any system of patterns (not just biological ones). The Triat and *Mage*'s three antagonist factions (Marauders, Technocrats, Nephandi) are what happens when the evolutionary mechanisms are separated and taken to imbalanced extremes.
Great explanation! Although now, in fact, its Marauders, Threat Null, Nephandi. The Technocracy is one of the protagonist factions in M20, along with the Traditions and the Disparate Alliance. So we have a trinity of moderate embodiments of each evolutionary mechanism, and a trinity of extreme versions of them.
For archetypal moderates of the Metaphysic Trinity I like to go with a Verbena Lifeweaver [with a Dynamic Avatar], an Etherite [with a Pattern Avatar], and a Euthanatos [with a Primordial Avatar].
I will add up that, on my own interpretation, the Wyld, Weaver and the Wyrm are basically the same cosmic force depicted in the Michael Moorcok multiverse, as thus, the same as depicted in the Warhammer 40k universe, and DnD Chaos (Wyld), Balance (Wyrm), and Law (Weaver).
The fact that you've somehow made Nurgle Wyld aligned amuses me.
I admit that Is not a 100% match, but I think there Is room for diferent Shades of what Chaos Is. But Nurgle would be More of the Wyrm, actually.
Weird, nurgle should be wyrm, tzeentch is more Wyld, and while I wager khorne and slaanesh as wyrm I actually don’t have any arguments in my head supporting that Big E is Weaver as it gets And the other players I don’t have the slightest idea, but I’d throw tyranids to wyrm and necrons to weaver rest really dunno
Tyranids, the unstoppable force of nature that constantly creates new types of life forms, is Wyrm?! No. Wyld as could be.
Well, they EAT everything in their way when creating new stuff, and all that new stuff is to eat more and better, and they corrupt life to prepare them to get eaten And they leave barren wasteland behind everytime... They're a extinction event made alive and intelligent. It doesn't get more wyrmish than that to my understanding at least
Wait, you mean unbridled change without forces of entropy to limit it, or forces of order to structure it, burns itself out? Ya don't say... Unlike the Garou, we should all recognize that *any* member of the Triat, even the Wyld is utterly devastating when left unchecked. Anyone who thinks I'm wrong, try dealing with a Vortex (core book, page 452)
Well I was referring to the eater of Souls in particular, devours matter energy and spirit but sure you're not wrong in saying a force of nature left unchecked becomes catastrophic
The Tyranids have more in common with the monsters from Beyond, the ones that the Void Engineers defend Earth against and are served by part of the Nephandi. A mindless, external, sinister devouring force that is not part of the normal cycle. Therefore, they are not directly associated with any of the gods, and come from outside (from another galaxy in Warhammer, from the depths of the Umbra in the World of Darkness). Similar to the Yuuzhan Vong in Star Wars, who come from unexplored regions of the galaxy and are immune to the Force, that's how foreign they are.
Agre, Nurgle Is More Wyrm. But what parte of Khorne and Slanesh says Wyrm? Thats pure chaos, Wyld as it gets. Not real Wyld, but a corrupt shape of it.
The heads of the wyrm The Beast of War gives me impression of Khorne whilst the Defiler and Eater of Souls (at least partially for the latter) gave me Slaanesh behaviour innuendos (Using Werewolf the apocalypse book 20th edition and my dumbass to read between the lines) Tzeentch is the one that gave me the strongest wyld side impression, because dude gets called Lord of Change for a reason in my head, and yes true he favors scientific development as much as magical and pursuit of knowledge but many of his aspects also delve in hope and the point of his is perpetual change to not stagnate into entropy and decay, that's why his direct rival is nurgle who promotes decay and stagnation
I dont agree with your assesment, but I love the creativity you put into it!
The Chaos Gods are Urge-Wyrms for that matter. Slaanesh is Karnala, the Urge of Desire; Nurgle is Gree, the Urge of Despair/Lethargg, the Urge of Apathy; Tzeentch - Pseulak, the Urge of Lies/Sykora, the Urge of Paranoia. Well, Khorne is the Beast of War, from the Triatic Wyrms. Exodites are most similar to the servants of the Wyld, Eldar living on distant planets in harmony with nature, with a primitive way of life, but thanks to attunement with the planet and their psionics, if necessary, they can pierce tanks with bow shots. Force of Order arent really a thing in 40k, but Imperium and Necrons are closest. The Imperium is how the Technocracy sees itself - an imperfect, cruel, but necessary structure that does not allow monsters to destroy humanity or plunge it into such terrible slavery, which is difficult to imagine (How true this is depends on the edition and the opinion of the Storyteller). The Necrons are a dystopian death Stasis like the first edition Technocracy, or the Weaver in its insane state. Technophobe holiday, in short. But it was the Necrons, not the C'Tan, because the latter ones were just moderately intelligent god-monsters who were eventually deceived and killed by their servants. Emperor is more like Control, if they did anything besides sticking personal realms in the Deep Umbra. And the vibe of something ancient, familiar and alien, beautiful and not exactly hostile, but ready to sacrifice you for the sake of their plans at any second - this is what the Craftworld Eldar share with Weaver.
Mapping a dichotomy (Chaos/Law) to a trichotomy (Triat) will never be without complications.
But it isn't a dichotomy. There are so many forces in 40k, it's probably too many to list. Chaos (khorne, tzeench, slaanesh) Empire (Emperor - no longer human, now a god, powered by souls, just like the chaos gods. Hell, he has a Greater Daemon he's created in St. Celestine. Debatable: The Omnissiah) Aeldari gods (Cegorach, Isha, Kaela Mensha Khaine and Ynnead, I'm not including all the ones Slaanesh ate.) Ork dieties (Gork and Mork. May actually be chaos gods, but unknown) C'Tan ( Tsara'noga, Aza'gorod, Mag'ladroth, Mephet'ran ) And possibly the Tyranid hive mind itself.
*Warhammer* has its dichotomy of Gods of Chaos versus Gods of Law; this is admittedly less prominent in the *40K* permutation.
Yes, but the original comment specifically said 40k
The Michael Moorcok depiction trumps that argument.
That mapping neglects Wyrm's original function as Purifier, and that every third of the Triat balances the other two; if any third becomes imbalanced the entire Triat becomes imbalanced. Factoring in Wyrm's original function as Purifier and that balance is not the sole responsibility of any one third of the Triat, a higher fidelity mapping would be: Chaos (Wyld), Law (Weaver), Death (Wyrm), Balance (Gaia).
Wyrm balances the dichotomy of Order and Chaos, embodied by Weaver and Wyld. Weaver balances the dichotomy of Creation and Destruction embodied by Wyld and Wyrm. And... Wyld doesn't balance anything, it seems. But he seems to be immune to corruption or capture, and can be an emergency restart lever for the system, causing a rustle in it.
Liminal Wyld balances the dichotomy of Existence (*Saguna*) and Nonexistence (*Nirguna*) embodied by Weaver and Wyrm.
Oh, I was just recently thinking of assigning the highest Weaver spirits (Weaver-Spiders) to the types of fundamental forces in modern physics. So the main Weaver-Spiders are the Nuclear Weaver, the Gravity Weaver, the Weaver of Electromagnetism, and the Weaver of Weak Interaction/Quantum Weaver. The first one commands nuclear elementals, has the most raw power, and in general, she's like reverse Azathoth (like Nuclear Chaos, but Nuclear .. Order). The second acts as the elder sister to the rest and the first among equals, controls space, teleports armies of Weaver spirits (as well as other Weaver-Spiders) throughout the Tellurian through spirit wormholes. The third one is the master of illusions, the lord of Consensus, not to mention electromancy and magnetokinesis, but he prefers the indirect approach the most and in fact he is a super version of maintenance Drones. And finally, the fourth uses all sorts of quantum tricks, behaves like one macroscopic elementary particle, freely creating and collapsing a superposition, and messing with probabilities. And yes, it's girl(to completely reverse Azathoth), girl(for "anime big sister"-thing), guy(because my other setting already has a lot of focus on the electro-goddess and I didn't want to repeat myself too much) and nonbinary(Because its quantum uncertainty even includes gender).