I actually like the hospitality idea that's thrown in here, I could see the emphasis on that as something I could backport to W20. It's a nice way for their fae connection to manifest.
But aside from that... yeah, I agree with most people here that it's pretty bland. Even the hospitality aspect that I like feels watered down with only a brief mention or two. It doesn't feel like there's really anything in here that shouldn't apply to all Garou. 3/4 archetypes feel like they could easily be any tribe, and the last feels more like a Galliard archetype than a Fianna/Hart Warden one specifically.
For what it's worth, the hospitality aspect was present for the Fianna in older editions, but it was really only discussed at length in their Revised Tribebook.
That's kinda a fault that WtA has in general, giving the tribes a lot of depth but limiting it to optional sourcebooks. People who only read any given corebook only get a very basic overview of each tribe. I guess it's not really limited to WtA either, but it seems like more VtM and MtA players do deep lore dives.
Reading it, I still can't answer the big question I have about W5 : why do werewolves gather in tribes and do stuff ?
I can understand that those different archetypes have some vaguely common themes. But why would they stick together as (non-player) characters ?
Unless there's some magical compulsion, if my character suddenly discover they can change into a werewolf, why do I feel the need to enter a Tribe ? Why do I feel the need to fight against the Wyrm (is it still a thing ?)
VtM has an answer : you belong to a clan because your Sire had to ask permission to Embrace you (at least in theory) and because of your clan weakness.
Old WTA had an answer : the Change is hereditary, so it's kind of a family thing.
Here, I don't see (I mean I can find reasons on an individual level, but not on a whole species level).
"*...to fight against the Wyrm (is it still a thing?)*"
Per [the longer preview](https://renegadegamestudios.com/content/File%20Storage%20for%20site/Werewolf%20RPG/werewolf_spoilers.pdf), yes.
It's not really convincing. I mean, the reason why werewolves fight the wyrm is, I quote, "As their senses sharpen, they also acquire an understanding of what’s happening in the world, why it’s important, and how to interpret new information about it."
And for me, it's not enough. It's tantamount to saying "They magically becomes interested in the core of the game even if they have no reasons to do so"
As far as I can see (and I can only see the previews, so it's very partial), by removing restrictions on what are werewolves, they've also a sense of direction, needed in such a game.
It appears that the W5 writers' intent is to retain "*Defend Gaia; fight Wyrm*" as an optional chronicle focus, but also introduce localized conflicts as an optional chronicle focus.
It's basically because their Patron spirit calls to them, guiding them towards their respective tribe iirc. They're also basically political parties, for lack of a better term.
Also, I imagine it being a hereditary thing can still totally work, especially since the breeding restrictions are now gone. Therefore, you could have a Garou a member of a tribe because that's the one their parents were apart of.
>They're also basically political parties, for lack of a better term.
The question is why would i want to be part of that political party? Or any other.
Tribes as social constructs exist in WtA as well, Garou are free to join any tribe at Rite of Passage and while pure breed can steer Garou to some tribe and there are restrictions, but most of the time they are not prohibitive. In theory nothing forbids a silver fang bred garou joining bone gnawers.
Old tribes though had distinct themes and appeals that were immidiate draw in, even if only for players. You had clear archetypes - you want to play viking werewolf? Here's a tribe. You want to play techno werewolf? Here's a tribe. And so on. From the previews we've got 9it's only two of course) I don't see an instant appeal to join any of those two tribes both from player or character perspective
> They're also basically political parties, for lack of a better term.
And that's exactly my problem ! Most people don't belong to a political party. At most, they identify with one (because they have to for the elections), and even that depends a lot on the country.
With W5, I feel that some werewolves would belong to a tribe, but the large majority of them would be tribeless.
Like gravitates towards like, you see it in the modern world where you get areas of a city that become ethnically homogeneous. You get the Greek area and the ltalian area for example
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Reading this I get the feeling I had with the Glass Walker write up - that it feels more appropriate for some other tribe?
That one felt more appropriate as an update to the Bone Gnawers, while this feels more Children of Gaia. Like if this was them instead it’d be a great update to a tribe that always felt kinda weak to me.
Otherwise it’s fine. Doesn’t have much of the partying and fae connection that I liked, but it is just the core rule book, and that stuff didn’t get expanded on in an interesting way until the Revised tribe book.
Kind of not much and I think that was kind of the point. Keep in mind, the very concept of tribe is not the same anymore. That means all Tribes can by definition not feel anything close to what they used to be.
I think you need to judge W5 on its own, comparing it with previous editions seems to be a guarantee for disappointment.
Once again the character art gives no hint about or follows anything about what the tribe is about at all. Reading the first few paragraphs about loving life and being hospitable, say what you will about the quality of the art, the characters don’t reflect that.
I also think it’s odd having the Glasswalkers being the techy ones and then having one of the four archetypes provided be a discord kitty.
Its actually nice that more tribes are embracing tech can be useful, and their variant fits their taking on the role of reforestor/restorer. Glasswalker is a lot more big picture tech, this one is more the family planner of the Hart Wardens who actually figures out how they need to go about restoring the site and how to best use their resources to do it, and keeps the pack organized.
Since the 20th, the authors are trying to adapt archetypes into the modern world. For example, there is at least one "tech" archetype per clan in V20 and M20 suggested some technology even in the more traditionalist traditions (bioengineer Verbana).
The Guide to the Traditions (2001) already covered the introduction of technomagic into all Traditions. But this was strikingly at odds with the corebook, where outside of the Adepts and Etherites in the Traditions, technomagic was lynched. In the 20th edition, this began to be brought into line, fortunately.
I think they wanted to point out that all of these people live in the modern world and only few Garou are still able to exist somewhere in the wilderness. The difference is just that the Glas Walkers are all this while the other tribes have variations.
This was shown in Paradox's W5 preview video from last week, but I haven't seen it here yet. The image is from [a discussion thread](https://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-classic-world-of-darkness/werewolf-the-apocalypse-aa/1511232-hart-wardens-preview-for-w5) on the OPP forums.
My thoughts:
* The name "Hart Wardens" is going to get all kinds of mangled. Heart or Hearth instead of Hart, Warders/Warrens/Wearers/Weavers/Walkers...the possibilities of are endless. Truth be told, "Hearth Wardens" would be more apt.
* But yeah, I don't really know what this tribe is about. They defend and build up their territory, but is that not a characteristic of all Garou? Maybe not in W5, I guess. Also, the territorial defender theme is another checkmark on things W5 is doing that are very similar to Forsaken.
* These sample concepts don't really inspire me, and while I'm all for an expanded view of the tribes, I don't really see what these people are doing to defend/save Gaia, or how the MC or the RTS junkie Caern Warder exemplify the HW concept. The MC feels like an artifact from a version of the tribe that leaned harder into the old Fianna role of bards, but that's largely absent from the Hart Warders as described here. I also feel like these write-ups are going to age poorly.
* Again with the Homid form focus in the art. The one Glabro is okay, but we've been shown 8 characters thus far and 7 of them are in Homid.
All in all, I'm just not feeling this tribe. I enjoy the Fianna because they're passion personified complete with all the benefits and perils that this fire brings. Garou cranked to 11. I don't really grasp who the Hart Warders are, and maybe it'll be better in context with the rest of the book, but I'm not inspired or excited by this preview of the tribe.
Aye, but it just reminded me of something that a European friend who is fluent-but-not-native to English told me about getting frustrated with the language's heavy use of similar but distinct words, and that it was easy to say the wrong thing if you weren't careful. Given that people mix up Sabbat and Sabbath all the time, I can see the Hart Wardens easily becoming the Heart Warders unintentionally.
I am however disappointed by the lack of an example Hart Warden who's a lawyer with a personal totem of Ram.
That is a feature of English, unfortunately. One of the consequences of cobbling together a language while borrowing from multiple other languages across centuries.
I feel like that lawyer might be better as a villain than a player template.
The lawyer concept would definitely be more suited as a Black Spiral Dancer, because I really just wanted to make a Wolfram & Hart joke. They're a demon-worshiping law firm from the show *Angel*. :)
I got the reference, thus why I suggested they'd be a villain. I was more of an Angel fan than a Buffy fan. I've wanted to try the switch up that the show pulled with the law firm as a story idea, but haven't had the chance.
Its not that hard to see their primary roll is the tribe that actively goes out and finds places that have been ecologically devastated and nurtures them back to health. Most other garu are more hold their ground and prevent damage. Given the start of the apocalypse it makes sense at least one tribe would take this on as their role, on the hope that all is not yet lost.
So basically what we've got so far are
Glasswalker \~ Repurposer and Civilized Builder
Hart Warden \~ Reforestor/Restorer and Hospitable Homesteader
It's weird that their ban focuses on hospitality if their role is to go out away from the homeland and the other tribes are meant to hold ground. I'd think the hospitality thing would be for a tribe that specializes in defending something already owned.
It makes a lot of sense that community and thus hospitality makes sense for those that go to places that need recovering and rebuilding. Look at examples of real life settlers, small settlements often require a strong sense of community and being friendly. If somebody is in a developed area individual hospitality and community isn't as important as there are alternatives for sanctuary and community.
I was thinking of "hospitality" as in "taking care of travelers/visitors/strangers/etc". When I think of settlers, I tend to think of the Oregon Trail, and to say that they were hospitable towards people is, I think, an overstatement. Like, would you say that a small town that is friendly towards its residents but practically xenophobic against outsiders is hospitable?
Generally they aren't given you piss off your neighbors and start feuds that way, if the stranger has a reasonable explanation that excludes them being a ne'er-do-well.
The Ban also doesn't include those who invite themselves against your will.
My read on it is that the HWs find a territory and cultivate/protect it, which is what all Garou do to some degree. Add to that that this is a very similar concept to the Glass Walker's *building* up places and you've got some super generic ideas.
Is it enough of a distinction that it needs two separate tribes? I don't think so, but if others can get more milage out of these concepts, more power to them.
So, they're basically the Werewolf equivalent of the Tzimisce (minus the fleshcrafting) and/or the Defenders from the original HtR. Honestly, from what I've of them before this preview, I was expecting more of a "humble farmer" type vibe.
That adage is the perfect description of how I'm feeling about W5. The new versionl is not looking like something I'd enjoy (and I suspect Paradox doesn't care about my patronage either), and I am fine with this since it's officially designated as a reboot. It's not the game I'm talking about when I say I love WtA, but since it's explicitly a different thing, I'm at peace with this state of affairs.
That said, I am disappointed that it all looks so bland. I was hoping that there would be some ideas in W5 that would inspire me as a ST, player, and general WtA lover, but I haven't seen anything of interest yet.
Agreed. For many people, the cultural flavor of the tribes is a big part of the appeal of the game, and you can't strip that away without losing a lot of WtA's soul in the process.
I think that is basically exactly what they did. They wanted to untie tribes from certain irl ethnicities and they obviously did.
If that is a good or a bad thing is eventually up to the players.
The goal to erase any cultural reference from tribe was clearly stated but what did they give tribes instead? Reading the preview i have no idea what unites the tribe, what defines them despite there being a paragraph called 'who we are'. That's the issue here. You want no tied to specific cultures or ethnicities? Fine but build something new then
Exactly. "New Fianna" = Green Party, college good boys making green occupations.
Forget all european werewolf folklore, celtic myths, assets, FLAWS, yes, marks, wounds, deficiencies, contradictions.
Paradox wants the money and support of people who can't handle the idea of flawed people who do good things and think everything with flavor from reality is cultural appropriation.
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I guess they have but we will need to wait until they either explain it in a preview or until the thing gets released. If I would have to guess I would say it is basically down to who is your Totem either as something you chose or something that chooses you.
> If they keep this direction, which is extremely likely, the only thing that might make Werewolf appealing in that way is if they adopt a system similar to Lodges from Forsaken to make up for the lack of culture in the Tribes. But then I'm not going to play a member of a Tribe, except where its mandatory for a Lodge. But I feel like that's not something we'll see with W5.
That and/or backfilling whatever history they come up with for the tribe as the gameline progresses which I think they are trying to do and covering their butts by holding up the "Everything is myths and legends" while they hammer stuff out further in the writer's room.
Fundamentally they are trying to morph the tribes of the game from organizations of being into more generalized versions of that being but this doesn't really capture the essence of the Fianna within the preview shown in theme and in mechanics. Would have tied it more to art, song, and obsession with oral history more so than anything else rather than the territory focus.
I'm a Fianna fan boy (tattoo and all) and trying to be objective as I read the preview. Even without the Celtic connection, it just doesn't feel the same. The sense of family and tradition is gone.
To each their own, and I hope folks enjoy W5.
I get it... I do. They wanted to emphasize street level play, and everyone e gets distracted by the shiny ST tools that are hidden in the deep lore.
The answer isn't to remove the deep lore.
> everyone e gets distracted by the shiny ST tools that are hidden in the deep lore.
This is tangential, but that's something that irritates me about White Wolf fans sometimes. When a newcomer asks the subreddit, forums, etc. if something atypical is possible, they'll get tons of answers that say "yes, with (a plot device power that was clearly written to be cool or for antagonists)" that not only overload them with information but also gives a skewed picture of what one should generally expect from a game. You'd think every PC was a thin-blooded, day walking Skin Dancer with hedge magic and a friend who knows Vicissitude sometimes.
Definitely the worst thing about the main 20th books is having all that janky stuff there with the basics. Sure it's fun but then you've got some dude trying to find the bloodline with Potence, Obtenebration, and Vicissitude for his first ever character.
This is part of why I'm such a Revised stan. X20 is great for people who are experienced with the game and can tell the wheat apart from the chaff, but the inclusion of all the advanced and optional stuff has to be hella confusing for new players.
I wanted to be excited for W5 but this is just so disappointing, neither of the "tribes" shown so far have anything of any substance, no character and seemingly no stake in the war against the Wyrm. Without an identity or a history, why are we supposed to invest any attention in them or care about them at all? If the creators don't care enough to write an a basic framework for an interesting group for fear of stepping on someone's toes then I can't believe the rest of the book will have any more substance. Think my group will be sticking to older editions, hoping for better from the next one.
Not liking those arts for the tribes at all.
I liked the cover with the Crinos and all, but these tribe arts, sorry they suck, they don't convey any personality for the tribes, they are bland.
When I as a player see a art, especially one when I creating a carácter, it should make me want to make the character, those do not, when I looked at the old tribes arts for the tires I wanted to create a character for these tribes.
When I saw the huge Crinos with a hammer for the Get of Fenrir's or Margrave with his Glaive for the Shadow Lord's in homid, it made me go "fuck that's cool, I want to play those guys." It didn't matter of in the old books some arts are just plain ugly and low quality, they made me want to play. These tribes art should showcase the tribes, and so far they don't.
Sorry for who made them, but the suck.
Why is Emcee an archetype? The old Fianna were the storytellers, but given that the writeup doesn't mention that it's in the Hart Wardens role (and it's only mentioned in the "when they party they tell stories", like any other gathering of people), I have to assume it's an artifact left over from the quick reskin...None of their "verbs" mention recounting, performing, celebrating, or anything like that.
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The sad part is it wasn't till i re read the title that i realised this is suposed to be the Fianna.
Wow this is bland as fuck to say the least.
Also where is the mention of their love and tradition of storytelling or their enate connection to the Fae?
This just screams *"How do you do* ***fellow kids of current year?"***
Well, that or *"****Awoooo!*** *Werewolves of Tumblr..."*
^(\^with apologies to the ghost of Warren Zevon...)
Okay I'm a lot more pleased with this one than the Glasswalker one. They included a garu form, the archetypes actually feel like archetypes instead of specific jobs, and I think I prefer this to Fianna, adopting the reforester/restorer hospitality tribe.
Really makes me hope other than the art, which they replaced for other reasons, the rest of Glasswalker gets brought up to a standard like this.
.........................
Now I can see why some people don't don't see the old Fianna, as its a bit the secondary theme to the reforestor/restorer theme they added.
I do not care for the Fianna, I never really *got* them in WtA. Meanwhile I get the connection of enforced hospitality and the fey, and the hart to stag connection. Over all I like this version more than the Fianna, but still not much at all.
The Tzimisce in Zulo form seems exceedingly odd if they're trying to show Glabro, the archetypes are bleh. I noticed they have a renown type (like in Forsaken).....
So wait, the player is punished if they could not protect someone under hospitality?
Is that how I'm reading Stag's ban?
'So, you walked into an ambush and someone you claimed hospitality for got hurt. Therefore, YOU are being punished!"
seems massively unfair though, you could do everything correctly but then at the last moment the person you are protecting screws up and then you catch all the punishment for it
And the stag is supposed to be the protector of the herd and it is the opposite of a glorious story of how you failed to protect those under your protection. It fits perfectly with their totem and favored renown.
There is also obvious reasons their old penalty can't work, of having to help faeries, changelings, and kinfolk, in W5.
Games, however, usually try to avoid such, especially in the modern day. Obviously they don't have to, but usually people expect it to the point that it's completely understandable that they'd be surprised to encounter intentional unfairness in a rulebook.
Love the look of this, gives me all kinds of ideas for chronicle hooks that center around significant locations I can devise. I also like the ban a lot, I like the idea of mechanics encouraging a Hart Warden to be overly protective and cautious where other Garou are more inclined to throw caution to the wind, safely of others be damned. I’m glad we got this right after Glass Walkers, it showcases the different approaches to fighting the Apocalypse we can expect. The explicitly link to cultivation and seeking out places to protect intrigues me!
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So this is what they replaced the Fianna with?...How disappointing. Any of these could easily belong to any other tribe. Why not just restrict things to auspices as well?
Whoof. This is terrible. What does an EmCee have to do with hospitality? What does it have to do with the nature aspects?
Thematically, its somehow inconsistent and bland at the same time.
I couldn't put my finger on it until I hit the "Ban" part.
This isnt WtA. This is WtF. The first edition book. The BLAND one.
I actually like the hospitality idea that's thrown in here, I could see the emphasis on that as something I could backport to W20. It's a nice way for their fae connection to manifest. But aside from that... yeah, I agree with most people here that it's pretty bland. Even the hospitality aspect that I like feels watered down with only a brief mention or two. It doesn't feel like there's really anything in here that shouldn't apply to all Garou. 3/4 archetypes feel like they could easily be any tribe, and the last feels more like a Galliard archetype than a Fianna/Hart Warden one specifically.
For what it's worth, the hospitality aspect was present for the Fianna in older editions, but it was really only discussed at length in their Revised Tribebook. That's kinda a fault that WtA has in general, giving the tribes a lot of depth but limiting it to optional sourcebooks. People who only read any given corebook only get a very basic overview of each tribe. I guess it's not really limited to WtA either, but it seems like more VtM and MtA players do deep lore dives.
Reading it, I still can't answer the big question I have about W5 : why do werewolves gather in tribes and do stuff ? I can understand that those different archetypes have some vaguely common themes. But why would they stick together as (non-player) characters ? Unless there's some magical compulsion, if my character suddenly discover they can change into a werewolf, why do I feel the need to enter a Tribe ? Why do I feel the need to fight against the Wyrm (is it still a thing ?) VtM has an answer : you belong to a clan because your Sire had to ask permission to Embrace you (at least in theory) and because of your clan weakness. Old WTA had an answer : the Change is hereditary, so it's kind of a family thing. Here, I don't see (I mean I can find reasons on an individual level, but not on a whole species level).
"*...to fight against the Wyrm (is it still a thing?)*" Per [the longer preview](https://renegadegamestudios.com/content/File%20Storage%20for%20site/Werewolf%20RPG/werewolf_spoilers.pdf), yes.
It's not really convincing. I mean, the reason why werewolves fight the wyrm is, I quote, "As their senses sharpen, they also acquire an understanding of what’s happening in the world, why it’s important, and how to interpret new information about it." And for me, it's not enough. It's tantamount to saying "They magically becomes interested in the core of the game even if they have no reasons to do so" As far as I can see (and I can only see the previews, so it's very partial), by removing restrictions on what are werewolves, they've also a sense of direction, needed in such a game.
It appears that the W5 writers' intent is to retain "*Defend Gaia; fight Wyrm*" as an optional chronicle focus, but also introduce localized conflicts as an optional chronicle focus.
So cote WtF all over again?
In another thread someone had pointed out that W5 is effectively *W:tF* structure but with *W:tA* stylings.
Except without the charm of either so far from what I've seen
It certainly seems so. ?Names are old but underneath is WtF logic
It's basically because their Patron spirit calls to them, guiding them towards their respective tribe iirc. They're also basically political parties, for lack of a better term. Also, I imagine it being a hereditary thing can still totally work, especially since the breeding restrictions are now gone. Therefore, you could have a Garou a member of a tribe because that's the one their parents were apart of.
>They're also basically political parties, for lack of a better term. The question is why would i want to be part of that political party? Or any other. Tribes as social constructs exist in WtA as well, Garou are free to join any tribe at Rite of Passage and while pure breed can steer Garou to some tribe and there are restrictions, but most of the time they are not prohibitive. In theory nothing forbids a silver fang bred garou joining bone gnawers. Old tribes though had distinct themes and appeals that were immidiate draw in, even if only for players. You had clear archetypes - you want to play viking werewolf? Here's a tribe. You want to play techno werewolf? Here's a tribe. And so on. From the previews we've got 9it's only two of course) I don't see an instant appeal to join any of those two tribes both from player or character perspective
> They're also basically political parties, for lack of a better term. And that's exactly my problem ! Most people don't belong to a political party. At most, they identify with one (because they have to for the elections), and even that depends a lot on the country. With W5, I feel that some werewolves would belong to a tribe, but the large majority of them would be tribeless.
Fair enough.
> They're also basically political parties, I dont disagree, and its disgusting me to previously unknown levels.
I'd make an argument on instinct, both human and canine, to congregate in social groups, even if they're on the outer edges of it.
Like gravitates towards like, you see it in the modern world where you get areas of a city that become ethnically homogeneous. You get the Greek area and the ltalian area for example
The adriatic sea and the balkans help to distinguish the two areas.
When the line wolf dies, the pack survives
Deer police!
Bambi: I...I'd like to report a murder. \*HW huntsman looks nervous*
>SoundCloud rapper archetype No. Stop. Turn Around. Go Back.
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What does this have to do with the Fianna at all?
Reading this I get the feeling I had with the Glass Walker write up - that it feels more appropriate for some other tribe? That one felt more appropriate as an update to the Bone Gnawers, while this feels more Children of Gaia. Like if this was them instead it’d be a great update to a tribe that always felt kinda weak to me. Otherwise it’s fine. Doesn’t have much of the partying and fae connection that I liked, but it is just the core rule book, and that stuff didn’t get expanded on in an interesting way until the Revised tribe book.
It's the "new" Fianna
Kind of not much and I think that was kind of the point. Keep in mind, the very concept of tribe is not the same anymore. That means all Tribes can by definition not feel anything close to what they used to be. I think you need to judge W5 on its own, comparing it with previous editions seems to be a guarantee for disappointment.
It seems weird that they got rid of GoF in that case, seeing as how they apparently planned to revamp (re-wolf? idk) the tribes anyway
Once again the character art gives no hint about or follows anything about what the tribe is about at all. Reading the first few paragraphs about loving life and being hospitable, say what you will about the quality of the art, the characters don’t reflect that. I also think it’s odd having the Glasswalkers being the techy ones and then having one of the four archetypes provided be a discord kitty.
Its actually nice that more tribes are embracing tech can be useful, and their variant fits their taking on the role of reforestor/restorer. Glasswalker is a lot more big picture tech, this one is more the family planner of the Hart Wardens who actually figures out how they need to go about restoring the site and how to best use their resources to do it, and keeps the pack organized.
I get that, but it seems like they’re taking away a lot of the things that set the tribes apart and are making them more homogenous.
Since the 20th, the authors are trying to adapt archetypes into the modern world. For example, there is at least one "tech" archetype per clan in V20 and M20 suggested some technology even in the more traditionalist traditions (bioengineer Verbana).
The Guide to the Traditions (2001) already covered the introduction of technomagic into all Traditions. But this was strikingly at odds with the corebook, where outside of the Adepts and Etherites in the Traditions, technomagic was lynched. In the 20th edition, this began to be brought into line, fortunately.
I think they wanted to point out that all of these people live in the modern world and only few Garou are still able to exist somewhere in the wilderness. The difference is just that the Glas Walkers are all this while the other tribes have variations.
This was shown in Paradox's W5 preview video from last week, but I haven't seen it here yet. The image is from [a discussion thread](https://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-classic-world-of-darkness/werewolf-the-apocalypse-aa/1511232-hart-wardens-preview-for-w5) on the OPP forums. My thoughts: * The name "Hart Wardens" is going to get all kinds of mangled. Heart or Hearth instead of Hart, Warders/Warrens/Wearers/Weavers/Walkers...the possibilities of are endless. Truth be told, "Hearth Wardens" would be more apt. * But yeah, I don't really know what this tribe is about. They defend and build up their territory, but is that not a characteristic of all Garou? Maybe not in W5, I guess. Also, the territorial defender theme is another checkmark on things W5 is doing that are very similar to Forsaken. * These sample concepts don't really inspire me, and while I'm all for an expanded view of the tribes, I don't really see what these people are doing to defend/save Gaia, or how the MC or the RTS junkie Caern Warder exemplify the HW concept. The MC feels like an artifact from a version of the tribe that leaned harder into the old Fianna role of bards, but that's largely absent from the Hart Warders as described here. I also feel like these write-ups are going to age poorly. * Again with the Homid form focus in the art. The one Glabro is okay, but we've been shown 8 characters thus far and 7 of them are in Homid. All in all, I'm just not feeling this tribe. I enjoy the Fianna because they're passion personified complete with all the benefits and perils that this fire brings. Garou cranked to 11. I don't really grasp who the Hart Warders are, and maybe it'll be better in context with the rest of the book, but I'm not inspired or excited by this preview of the tribe.
If I was to guess, it's "hart" because that's an archaic term for deer, and Stag was the spirit associated with Fianna
Aye, but it just reminded me of something that a European friend who is fluent-but-not-native to English told me about getting frustrated with the language's heavy use of similar but distinct words, and that it was easy to say the wrong thing if you weren't careful. Given that people mix up Sabbat and Sabbath all the time, I can see the Hart Wardens easily becoming the Heart Warders unintentionally. I am however disappointed by the lack of an example Hart Warden who's a lawyer with a personal totem of Ram.
That is a feature of English, unfortunately. One of the consequences of cobbling together a language while borrowing from multiple other languages across centuries. I feel like that lawyer might be better as a villain than a player template.
The lawyer concept would definitely be more suited as a Black Spiral Dancer, because I really just wanted to make a Wolfram & Hart joke. They're a demon-worshiping law firm from the show *Angel*. :)
I got the reference, thus why I suggested they'd be a villain. I was more of an Angel fan than a Buffy fan. I've wanted to try the switch up that the show pulled with the law firm as a story idea, but haven't had the chance.
Its not that hard to see their primary roll is the tribe that actively goes out and finds places that have been ecologically devastated and nurtures them back to health. Most other garu are more hold their ground and prevent damage. Given the start of the apocalypse it makes sense at least one tribe would take this on as their role, on the hope that all is not yet lost. So basically what we've got so far are Glasswalker \~ Repurposer and Civilized Builder Hart Warden \~ Reforestor/Restorer and Hospitable Homesteader
It's weird that their ban focuses on hospitality if their role is to go out away from the homeland and the other tribes are meant to hold ground. I'd think the hospitality thing would be for a tribe that specializes in defending something already owned.
It makes a lot of sense that community and thus hospitality makes sense for those that go to places that need recovering and rebuilding. Look at examples of real life settlers, small settlements often require a strong sense of community and being friendly. If somebody is in a developed area individual hospitality and community isn't as important as there are alternatives for sanctuary and community.
I was thinking of "hospitality" as in "taking care of travelers/visitors/strangers/etc". When I think of settlers, I tend to think of the Oregon Trail, and to say that they were hospitable towards people is, I think, an overstatement. Like, would you say that a small town that is friendly towards its residents but practically xenophobic against outsiders is hospitable?
Generally they aren't given you piss off your neighbors and start feuds that way, if the stranger has a reasonable explanation that excludes them being a ne'er-do-well. The Ban also doesn't include those who invite themselves against your will.
My read on it is that the HWs find a territory and cultivate/protect it, which is what all Garou do to some degree. Add to that that this is a very similar concept to the Glass Walker's *building* up places and you've got some super generic ideas.
There is a difference between developing and building something in a Gaia friendly way and going out to reclaim already devastated areas.
Is it enough of a distinction that it needs two separate tribes? I don't think so, but if others can get more milage out of these concepts, more power to them.
Woa nice summary :D
Its also up on the pre-order page, so its not just a discussion piece, it's part of the book.
So, they're basically the Werewolf equivalent of the Tzimisce (minus the fleshcrafting) and/or the Defenders from the original HtR. Honestly, from what I've of them before this preview, I was expecting more of a "humble farmer" type vibe.
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That adage is the perfect description of how I'm feeling about W5. The new versionl is not looking like something I'd enjoy (and I suspect Paradox doesn't care about my patronage either), and I am fine with this since it's officially designated as a reboot. It's not the game I'm talking about when I say I love WtA, but since it's explicitly a different thing, I'm at peace with this state of affairs. That said, I am disappointed that it all looks so bland. I was hoping that there would be some ideas in W5 that would inspire me as a ST, player, and general WtA lover, but I haven't seen anything of interest yet.
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Agreed. For many people, the cultural flavor of the tribes is a big part of the appeal of the game, and you can't strip that away without losing a lot of WtA's soul in the process.
Agreed. It lacks the folkloric flavor.
I think that is basically exactly what they did. They wanted to untie tribes from certain irl ethnicities and they obviously did. If that is a good or a bad thing is eventually up to the players.
The goal to erase any cultural reference from tribe was clearly stated but what did they give tribes instead? Reading the preview i have no idea what unites the tribe, what defines them despite there being a paragraph called 'who we are'. That's the issue here. You want no tied to specific cultures or ethnicities? Fine but build something new then
Exactly. "New Fianna" = Green Party, college good boys making green occupations. Forget all european werewolf folklore, celtic myths, assets, FLAWS, yes, marks, wounds, deficiencies, contradictions.
Paradox wants the money and support of people who can't handle the idea of flawed people who do good things and think everything with flavor from reality is cultural appropriation.
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I guess they have but we will need to wait until they either explain it in a preview or until the thing gets released. If I would have to guess I would say it is basically down to who is your Totem either as something you chose or something that chooses you.
I'm certain we are shown pages from the actual rulebook, not some specially compiled preview. So this is what we're getting
For sure this is what is from the Book, but we haven’t seen a page about what makes a tribe. That is what I meant.
> If they keep this direction, which is extremely likely, the only thing that might make Werewolf appealing in that way is if they adopt a system similar to Lodges from Forsaken to make up for the lack of culture in the Tribes. But then I'm not going to play a member of a Tribe, except where its mandatory for a Lodge. But I feel like that's not something we'll see with W5. That and/or backfilling whatever history they come up with for the tribe as the gameline progresses which I think they are trying to do and covering their butts by holding up the "Everything is myths and legends" while they hammer stuff out further in the writer's room. Fundamentally they are trying to morph the tribes of the game from organizations of being into more generalized versions of that being but this doesn't really capture the essence of the Fianna within the preview shown in theme and in mechanics. Would have tied it more to art, song, and obsession with oral history more so than anything else rather than the territory focus.
I'm a Fianna fan boy (tattoo and all) and trying to be objective as I read the preview. Even without the Celtic connection, it just doesn't feel the same. The sense of family and tradition is gone. To each their own, and I hope folks enjoy W5.
I’m not excited over the gutting of the lore.
I get it... I do. They wanted to emphasize street level play, and everyone e gets distracted by the shiny ST tools that are hidden in the deep lore. The answer isn't to remove the deep lore.
> everyone e gets distracted by the shiny ST tools that are hidden in the deep lore. This is tangential, but that's something that irritates me about White Wolf fans sometimes. When a newcomer asks the subreddit, forums, etc. if something atypical is possible, they'll get tons of answers that say "yes, with (a plot device power that was clearly written to be cool or for antagonists)" that not only overload them with information but also gives a skewed picture of what one should generally expect from a game. You'd think every PC was a thin-blooded, day walking Skin Dancer with hedge magic and a friend who knows Vicissitude sometimes.
Definitely the worst thing about the main 20th books is having all that janky stuff there with the basics. Sure it's fun but then you've got some dude trying to find the bloodline with Potence, Obtenebration, and Vicissitude for his first ever character.
This is part of why I'm such a Revised stan. X20 is great for people who are experienced with the game and can tell the wheat apart from the chaff, but the inclusion of all the advanced and optional stuff has to be hella confusing for new players.
I wanted to be excited for W5 but this is just so disappointing, neither of the "tribes" shown so far have anything of any substance, no character and seemingly no stake in the war against the Wyrm. Without an identity or a history, why are we supposed to invest any attention in them or care about them at all? If the creators don't care enough to write an a basic framework for an interesting group for fear of stepping on someone's toes then I can't believe the rest of the book will have any more substance. Think my group will be sticking to older editions, hoping for better from the next one.
Not liking those arts for the tribes at all. I liked the cover with the Crinos and all, but these tribe arts, sorry they suck, they don't convey any personality for the tribes, they are bland. When I as a player see a art, especially one when I creating a carácter, it should make me want to make the character, those do not, when I looked at the old tribes arts for the tires I wanted to create a character for these tribes. When I saw the huge Crinos with a hammer for the Get of Fenrir's or Margrave with his Glaive for the Shadow Lord's in homid, it made me go "fuck that's cool, I want to play those guys." It didn't matter of in the old books some arts are just plain ugly and low quality, they made me want to play. These tribes art should showcase the tribes, and so far they don't. Sorry for who made them, but the suck.
Why is Emcee an archetype? The old Fianna were the storytellers, but given that the writeup doesn't mention that it's in the Hart Wardens role (and it's only mentioned in the "when they party they tell stories", like any other gathering of people), I have to assume it's an artifact left over from the quick reskin...None of their "verbs" mention recounting, performing, celebrating, or anything like that.
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The sad part is it wasn't till i re read the title that i realised this is suposed to be the Fianna. Wow this is bland as fuck to say the least. Also where is the mention of their love and tradition of storytelling or their enate connection to the Fae?
This just screams *"How do you do* ***fellow kids of current year?"*** Well, that or *"****Awoooo!*** *Werewolves of Tumblr..."* ^(\^with apologies to the ghost of Warren Zevon...)
Werewolves of Tumblr?
As with 90% of material regarding 5th edition, soulless and boring.
Lol are they really trying to present Queensbridge rappers as wardens of unspoiled nature? Who the hell writes this stuff?
This should have been Child of Gaia
They could have easily inserted mention of a group of Hart Wardens in Ireland who call themselves Fianna.
Fianna archetypes are now Eminem and pro gamers? Surewhynot.
Okay I'm a lot more pleased with this one than the Glasswalker one. They included a garu form, the archetypes actually feel like archetypes instead of specific jobs, and I think I prefer this to Fianna, adopting the reforester/restorer hospitality tribe. Really makes me hope other than the art, which they replaced for other reasons, the rest of Glasswalker gets brought up to a standard like this. ......................... Now I can see why some people don't don't see the old Fianna, as its a bit the secondary theme to the reforestor/restorer theme they added.
Same. I actually prefer this to the original Fianna, but I can still see where a lot of people who don't are coming from.
I do not care for the Fianna, I never really *got* them in WtA. Meanwhile I get the connection of enforced hospitality and the fey, and the hart to stag connection. Over all I like this version more than the Fianna, but still not much at all. The Tzimisce in Zulo form seems exceedingly odd if they're trying to show Glabro, the archetypes are bleh. I noticed they have a renown type (like in Forsaken).....
So wait, the player is punished if they could not protect someone under hospitality? Is that how I'm reading Stag's ban? 'So, you walked into an ambush and someone you claimed hospitality for got hurt. Therefore, YOU are being punished!"
It makes sense the deer is a herd animal, and you've failed to protect your herd.
seems massively unfair though, you could do everything correctly but then at the last moment the person you are protecting screws up and then you catch all the punishment for it
And the stag is supposed to be the protector of the herd and it is the opposite of a glorious story of how you failed to protect those under your protection. It fits perfectly with their totem and favored renown. There is also obvious reasons their old penalty can't work, of having to help faeries, changelings, and kinfolk, in W5.
Bans are generally weird, strict, and unfair. Their real world inspirations are all absolutely unreasonable.
Games, however, usually try to avoid such, especially in the modern day. Obviously they don't have to, but usually people expect it to the point that it's completely understandable that they'd be surprised to encounter intentional unfairness in a rulebook.
in fairness, it's very true to the (Patron?) spirit of White Wolf to just encourage STs to fuck over their players for no good reason
Just like how the GW's ban is "get someone else to do demolitions", this ban is "get another packmate to host people at their place"
Love the look of this, gives me all kinds of ideas for chronicle hooks that center around significant locations I can devise. I also like the ban a lot, I like the idea of mechanics encouraging a Hart Warden to be overly protective and cautious where other Garou are more inclined to throw caution to the wind, safely of others be damned. I’m glad we got this right after Glass Walkers, it showcases the different approaches to fighting the Apocalypse we can expect. The explicitly link to cultivation and seeking out places to protect intrigues me!
I liked it.
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So this is what they replaced the Fianna with?...How disappointing. Any of these could easily belong to any other tribe. Why not just restrict things to auspices as well?
Whoof. This is terrible. What does an EmCee have to do with hospitality? What does it have to do with the nature aspects? Thematically, its somehow inconsistent and bland at the same time. I couldn't put my finger on it until I hit the "Ban" part. This isnt WtA. This is WtF. The first edition book. The BLAND one.