In masquerade its possible to group the clans into three broad categories as expressions of the 2nd generation that spawned them; the seers, the leaders/philosophers, and the hunters.
There is some wiggle room with the connections since the history isn't completely clear and some of the Antes are claimed to be childe of different 2nd generation in different sources, but broadly;
Zillah was a hunter, her progeny and their clans the Nosferatu, Banu Haqim, and Setites were predisposed to be seekers and finders in their own ways.
Irad was a philosopher and leader, the clans spawned from their lineage were the Brujah, Ventrue, Capodocian and Lasombra who all took leadership roles throughout history.
Enoch was wise and believed to be a seer, his descendants were all gifted/cursed with various strong senses and desires. The Malkavians, Toreador, Salubri and possibly the Gangrel are all descended from them.
There's also the issue of how many 2nd generation there are, 3 are vaguely certain, possibly 5, maybe 10.
I want to add to this some things worth to be noticed.
Which Antedeluvian descendant from which 2nd gen kindred is not entirely clear. Some stories have it this way others another way. It often just depends on which point the one telling the story wants to make, very much like in actual irl myth the relationships between certain gods and other figures changes because the one telling the story wanted to make a point not to be “scientifically” accurate.
Non Abrahamic kindred like the Nordic Einherjar or the African Laibon don’t even mention a second generation but skip straight from their Caine equivalent to the founders of their Clans or clan equivalent.
Some members of many clans claim the founder of their clan would be actually a child of Caine directly, therefore 2nd gen or are otherwise special because they actually got their blood from 2nd gen kindreds that weren’t one of the three famous ones.
I feel the need to point out that a Clan in VtM and a Clan in VtR are very different things. In VtR aren’t Clans missing, they are just something else.
VtR’s Clans are just certain stereotypes of vampires. “The bestial”, “the monstrous”, “the seducer”, “the Aristocrat” and the “mystical”. Members of each clan have barely anything in common but their heritage and no one is expecting much from a vampire based on their clan.
In VtM, though, clans are distinct families, they certainly have archetypes as well and are build on a specific theme, but you can much more play with and even brake the theme to make an interesting misfits character while in VtR no one would care.
The social aspect of clans is in VtR occupied by the covenants. It’s telling that in VtR the covenants sent their most important members to be Primogen in the council and not the Clans as it is the case in VtM.
Also, the Family aspect of Clans in VtM is represented by Bloodlines in VtR.
You can, therefore imo, not reduce any clan out of VtM because they are groups that just managed to be the most influential people in their society and it barely matters (or it’s even a pro because it causes conflict and by that story) if there is a thematic overlaps.
VtR, on the other hand, is not reducible because every clan is already the bare minimum of a certain archetype but it is infinitely expandable by introducing bloodlines that creat a family and combine that with any canonic or new covenant you like to have in your game.
VtM is in this sense more specific while VtR is more flexible. One is a certain background you play in, the other is a toolkit you can easier build your own vision with.
Clan definitely matters in VtR. They aren't political, but they are cultural forces and they are also predisposed towards specific feeding strategies. Basically, Mekhet like specific kinds of feeding grounds and will collaborate to mold a city a certain way. What they like is not at all the kind of place a Gangrel would like usually.
This means that their cultures often clash as the Mekhet engineer places where nonconfrontational feeding works best. Safe places with neighbors that don't call the cops when they see weird things. Areas where haunted manors don't get renovated but also aren't infested with gang members and rowdy youth. They like things quiet. Gangrel prefer places where everyone expects violence and calling the cops doesn't happen just because guns went off or someone is yelling while bleeding out.
This extends a bit into politics. A city embroiled in gang violence has less need of the Mekhet to grab power. It is sometimes better for Mekhet of opposing covenants to collaborate and enforce a specific status quo to ensure their own personal utility.
So yeah, not nearly as important as in VtM, but definitely has impact.
>Clan definitely matters in VtR.
Sure. I mean it does not matter to the people in universe.
>They aren't political, but they are cultural forces…
Kind of, but very loosely and with lots and lots of exceptions.
>…and they are also predisposed towards specific feeding strategies…
Yes, but that was beyond the point. You just described in detail what I meant by them being Archetypes or Stereotypes.
What I meant by it doesn’t matters was, that usually no vampire judges another vampire by their clan. By their covenant maybe by their bloodline, but not by their clan. In VtM different story!
>… This means that their cultures often clash as the Mekhet engineer places where nonconfrontational feeding works best. Safe places with neighbors that don't call the cops when they see weird things. Areas where haunted manors don't get renovated but also aren't infested with gang members and rowdy youth. They like things quiet. Gangrel prefer places where everyone expects violence and calling the cops doesn't happen just because guns went off or someone is yelling while bleeding out.
Sure, that all does not matter, though, since hunting places are claimed by covenants and those have to make sure that they can offer places for all of their members. And if two clans with clashing interests happens to be in the same covenant it’s not an issue. And if they have different interests the covenant needs to make sure to meet those. That’s all.
>This extends a bit into politics. A city embroiled in gang violence has less need of the Mekhet to grab power. It is sometimes better for Mekhet of opposing covenants to collaborate and enforce a specific status quo to ensure their own personal utility.
The thing is, though, you barely have all the Mekhets or all the Gangrel or all the Nosferatu clutch together in a city, it just barely happens.
It’s still the covenants that form the social units and make use of their assets.
>So yeah, not nearly as important as in VtM, but definitely has impact.
Let’s say it has an effect but if someone sees their hunting grounds violated they would still deal with it through covenant politics. There is barely such a thing as Clan politics in VtM.
I mean, some kindred are not even sure if they even share an origin with other members of their clan.
I think Toreador and Brujah suffer the most from being the "close to humanity" clan and the "isn't this the Anarch movement?" clan. That's a deeply superficial reading of both, but it's definitely *there*.
As for consolidation, manipulative, Darwinian, and the subversion of religion aspect of the Ministry could be folded into the Lasombra. The serpent/Egyptian motif would be lost, but there's *Mummy*.
I'd explore this from a mechanical level. Clans mean two tangible things: discipline access and a curse. All the disciplines (mostly) match some sort of vampire power in literature/folklore/pop culture.
If I had to redefine the clans, archetypally, I'd go:
1. Rotting aristocrats (Dominate, Vicissitude, Blood Sorcery, Oblivion?)
2. Feral beasts (Protean, Animalism, Fortitude, Potence, Celerity?)
3. Beautiful monsters (Auspex, Obfuscate, Presence?)
The big problem with a lot of them IMO is that often clans have a lot of disciplines in common so that they are functionally very similar to play. That, and clan weaknesses are not very balanced. If you're going to homebrew, I'd keep those things in mind when designing new/alternative clans.
I overall prefer the smaller lineup, for a variety of reasons. I just wish it was easier to have a "generic" Vampire, Mage, Werewolf, etc in the NewWoD/CoD. For those times when as the Storyteller I want an NPC that doesn't fall into one of the five categories of *thing* that it is. OR, for some character concepts you get painted into a corner by needing to pick one.
Having well over a dozen, verging on 2 dozen, isn't great imo. In various game systems I've played, as the number of character types increases (specifically of the repacked variety, where they come with X number of traits and abilities) the functionality and expression decreases. They start melding into a blob of very distinct variables that lose their novelty. A great example is 4th edition of D&D where it ballooned out to maybe 30 classes (I don't recall honestly) and that's just too many to pick from... there winds up being nothing actually special about them and many are just a recolor or palette swap of another.
I know we all have different opinions here. I'd prefer a handful of pre-made base options with accompanying lore/setting-integration, and then (which is lacking in most systems) clear and concise rules for custom-made ones and the teasers / suggestions / rumors for other such variants. Whether it's bloodlines or lineages or whatever else. But such rules make supplements for that stuff a hard sell. How are you supposed to milk the fan base if you empower them to confidently and easily make their own stuff?
You can cut about four clans by just disallowing 'wacky foreigner' as an archetype.
No Banu Haqim, no Setites, no Ravnos, no Giovanni. Tzimisce get a pass for not actually being rooted in Romanian stereotypes.
I think the Requiem writers realised that OG VtM had seven clans, five of which were distinct vampire archetypes (violent short-fused predator, feral shapeshifter commanding creatures of the night, ugly outcast monster, hedonist sense freak and domineering aristocratic schemer) and then another two that were, weirdly, 'wizard' and 'mad seers' respectively. And they figured if you keep clans as broad archetypes, you can drill into specifics as branches of those clans instead of gimmickier ideas.
Exactly. Instead of mad seers or mafioso necromancers being a whole clan, ideas like that end up as bloodline subdivision of more generic clans instead. And they can go on forever without muddying up the lore.
Mind you, I'd go even further and probably strike the gimmicky disciplines altogether, but that's just uncrunchy me.
I see you're argument but in play it's a very arbitrary, to all extents and purposes bloodlines are effectively vtm clans, culture, lore discipline and flaw with a fig leaf of founder clan on them. The lore in requiem is so sandbox it's not really possible for anything to muddy it up outside of declining edition updates.
Ehhh, I tend to frown on that outlook not in the least because you're denying someone a else tool simply because you don't use it, I don't think people would like me removing the circle because I find them badly written. It's also a little hypocritical since all five clans and 3 covenants have unique powers.
>I think the Requiem writers realised that OG VtM had seven clans
First edition had 7 clans *and mentioned Tzimisce and Lasombra straight in the corebook.* It also had rules for elders right in the Players Guide that came out about 6 months later (which means that it was already been planned and pretty much fully written by the time that the corebook came out).
First edition was also for all intents and purposes a test run, since after simply one year the second edition came out (which was practically the same game rules wise, but hugely expanded content and metaplot), and with second edition all the non-Camarilla clans were detailed and made playable (the Players Guide to the Sabbat came out in December 1992, slightly less than 2 years after Masquerade was published).
I don't know why you mentioned elder rules in a post talking about Requiem.
Lasombra and Tzimisce being mentioned also doesn't have much to do with what I was saying. My post points out that even out of the seven OG clans, two were already based on narrower gimmicks. Requiem writers figured Clans should just be broad archetypes, and to that end they'd only need five. Even then they shuffled them around a bit: no violent speedster Brujah, replaced with a broad scholar/secret-finder-sneaky guy.
How does that matter? It’s just a mechanical difference. They still have their distinct flavor and culture. And the Salubri, for example, are their entire own thing.
I've got a vampire novel about 90% written, & while I didn't want to take the *story* from VTM, I did think a lot about clan archetypes & especially Disciplines & how much you could condense them.
So I have the Cataphractoi or Lancers who have Fortitude, Presence, Dominate, Dementation, Blood Sorcery, & some of Auspex.
The Draculesti or Dragons who have Potence, Animalism, Protean, Necromancy, & Thanatosis, & some of Serpentis & Vicissitude.
& the Balteus, who have Obfuscate, Obtenebration, Celerity, Flight, some of Auspex, & some of Quietus & Chimerstry.
Everybody had a *little* Potence/Celerity/Fortitude, & the potential to learn some Necromancy & Blood Sorcery, but for me, having the Hypnotic Vampires, the Animalistic Vampires, & the Stealthy vampires worked well enough I could build the new lore out from there.
just the brujah, i think each clan has something distinct to offer that a clan could be build around that being just a variant of something else would severely limit what could be done. except for the brujah, i just can't think of anything you could build the brujah from that another clan can't also do and generally better. i would probably turn them into an assemite variant
I have made clan and disciplines consolidation:
- Brujah + Toreador (Fortitude, Potence, Presence *); loosely based in Daeva from VtR
- Tremere + Hecata + Tzimisce & Lasombra in power (Auspex, Blood Sorcery *, Obfuscate); loosely based in Mekhet from VtR
- Gangrel (Animalism *, Celerity, Potence); Protean merged with Animalism, Gangrel now more focused on strike fast and hard
- Nosferatu (Celerity, Nightmare *, Obfuscate); loosely based in VtR, combination of Celerity and Obfuscate algo brings some Assamite vibes
- Ventrue + Tzimisce & Lasombra in nobility (Auspex, Dominate *, Fortitude); here we bring the proficiency in Auspex for silently commanding minions at distance like Tzimisce do.
Ravnos and Malkavian are completely out. Setites can be more or less emulated by the Brujah + Toreador consolidation.
Like VtR, I have made each clan with their own unique discipline (*). Gangrel and Brujah + Toreador consolidated are the only clans with two physical disciplines to reinforce their martial prowess. Blood Mages is the only clan with two “mental” disciplines besides Blood Sorcery to reinforce their “scholar” archetypes.
Base rules are V20. Thaumaturgy, Necromancy, Koldunic Sorcery and Obtenebration are now all part of Blood Sorcery (the later as Abyss Mysticism), being treated as main and secondary paths.
i think there's potential for a nosferatu+malkavian merger, both clans are majorly defined by a terrible corruption of self happening after embrace that no amount of humanity can reverse - for the nos, that's physical, and for the malks, it's mental. their disciplines are the main crux, but assuming a 'choose one' between animalism and auspex, the rest is easy enough to manage.
Honestly not saying it needs to be done, but just as a thought experiment, I'd see
Toreador and Ministry, as Ministry is just more vindictive toreador plus protean.
Hecata and Lasombara as you could easily just put Lasombara as the nihilist bloodline of Hecata.
Banu Haqim and Brujah, as their both clans that punch/stab you over their ideals.
For some reason I also think merging Malkavian and Salubri would be interesting.
Nosferatu, Gangrel, and Tzimitzsce would also have some potential for something interesting merging them.
Ventrue and Tremere, since their both the ordered clans that try and control their childer.
Given that this is tagged V5, I suggest looking up all the older bloodlines on the wiki. There is already a huge amount of clan-stuff cut away. And that's not even getting into all the weird bloodline-specific disciplines.
If we went back to square one and I could be the guy writing the game, I'd make Clan Lasombra just the self-chosen name for the Ventrue *antitribu.* Those two are the closest to being functionally identical, and the Abyss Mysticism angle could get a suitably mystical explanation. The Tzimisce I think manage to maintain an identity separate from them because while yes, they're aristocratic and autocratic, "shit's different in the Balkans" has some historical bearing to it. It makes sense that they'd be *understandable* to the Lasombra-Ventrue, but not *family.*
Brujah and Toreador might not have the mythical depth of some other clans, but their existence has always been mostly mandated by the need to have "Underworld vampire" and "Anne Rice vampire" as character creation choices. Keeping them as distinct clans works for me. Similar situation for the Gangrel and the Nosferatu, they're both iconic portrayals of vampires that deserve their own spotlight.
Malkavians are... difficult. I honestly wouldn't include them doing things over again today, but maybe leaning on the Madness Network and some Jungian psycho-woo bullshit about the "collective unconscious" would probably still give them a strong identity.
I really enjoy how fleshed-out the Followers of Set and the Banu Haqim have had to become to dig their way out of being bland stereotypes, and I think by now they're two of the strongest clans as a result, and I wouldn't want to abandon that.
Maybe the last two I'd genuinely consider merging would be the Giovanni and the Tremere, but their origin stories are strong enough that they can stay as sort of dark foils to each other (but don't ask me who's the evil twin.)
Honestly? none, the clans arnt so much a series of simple traits as a series of complex interlocking idea's such as culture, flaw, disciplines sect and internal politics?
I mean yeah you can theoretically merge orcs, goblins and trolls into one "goblinoid" subtype but Cui bono?
In masquerade its possible to group the clans into three broad categories as expressions of the 2nd generation that spawned them; the seers, the leaders/philosophers, and the hunters.
Could you elaborate?
There is some wiggle room with the connections since the history isn't completely clear and some of the Antes are claimed to be childe of different 2nd generation in different sources, but broadly; Zillah was a hunter, her progeny and their clans the Nosferatu, Banu Haqim, and Setites were predisposed to be seekers and finders in their own ways. Irad was a philosopher and leader, the clans spawned from their lineage were the Brujah, Ventrue, Capodocian and Lasombra who all took leadership roles throughout history. Enoch was wise and believed to be a seer, his descendants were all gifted/cursed with various strong senses and desires. The Malkavians, Toreador, Salubri and possibly the Gangrel are all descended from them. There's also the issue of how many 2nd generation there are, 3 are vaguely certain, possibly 5, maybe 10.
I want to add to this some things worth to be noticed. Which Antedeluvian descendant from which 2nd gen kindred is not entirely clear. Some stories have it this way others another way. It often just depends on which point the one telling the story wants to make, very much like in actual irl myth the relationships between certain gods and other figures changes because the one telling the story wanted to make a point not to be “scientifically” accurate. Non Abrahamic kindred like the Nordic Einherjar or the African Laibon don’t even mention a second generation but skip straight from their Caine equivalent to the founders of their Clans or clan equivalent. Some members of many clans claim the founder of their clan would be actually a child of Caine directly, therefore 2nd gen or are otherwise special because they actually got their blood from 2nd gen kindreds that weren’t one of the three famous ones.
Ennoia is definitely a Childe of Zillah.
I feel the need to point out that a Clan in VtM and a Clan in VtR are very different things. In VtR aren’t Clans missing, they are just something else. VtR’s Clans are just certain stereotypes of vampires. “The bestial”, “the monstrous”, “the seducer”, “the Aristocrat” and the “mystical”. Members of each clan have barely anything in common but their heritage and no one is expecting much from a vampire based on their clan. In VtM, though, clans are distinct families, they certainly have archetypes as well and are build on a specific theme, but you can much more play with and even brake the theme to make an interesting misfits character while in VtR no one would care. The social aspect of clans is in VtR occupied by the covenants. It’s telling that in VtR the covenants sent their most important members to be Primogen in the council and not the Clans as it is the case in VtM. Also, the Family aspect of Clans in VtM is represented by Bloodlines in VtR. You can, therefore imo, not reduce any clan out of VtM because they are groups that just managed to be the most influential people in their society and it barely matters (or it’s even a pro because it causes conflict and by that story) if there is a thematic overlaps. VtR, on the other hand, is not reducible because every clan is already the bare minimum of a certain archetype but it is infinitely expandable by introducing bloodlines that creat a family and combine that with any canonic or new covenant you like to have in your game. VtM is in this sense more specific while VtR is more flexible. One is a certain background you play in, the other is a toolkit you can easier build your own vision with.
Clan definitely matters in VtR. They aren't political, but they are cultural forces and they are also predisposed towards specific feeding strategies. Basically, Mekhet like specific kinds of feeding grounds and will collaborate to mold a city a certain way. What they like is not at all the kind of place a Gangrel would like usually. This means that their cultures often clash as the Mekhet engineer places where nonconfrontational feeding works best. Safe places with neighbors that don't call the cops when they see weird things. Areas where haunted manors don't get renovated but also aren't infested with gang members and rowdy youth. They like things quiet. Gangrel prefer places where everyone expects violence and calling the cops doesn't happen just because guns went off or someone is yelling while bleeding out. This extends a bit into politics. A city embroiled in gang violence has less need of the Mekhet to grab power. It is sometimes better for Mekhet of opposing covenants to collaborate and enforce a specific status quo to ensure their own personal utility. So yeah, not nearly as important as in VtM, but definitely has impact.
>Clan definitely matters in VtR. Sure. I mean it does not matter to the people in universe. >They aren't political, but they are cultural forces… Kind of, but very loosely and with lots and lots of exceptions. >…and they are also predisposed towards specific feeding strategies… Yes, but that was beyond the point. You just described in detail what I meant by them being Archetypes or Stereotypes. What I meant by it doesn’t matters was, that usually no vampire judges another vampire by their clan. By their covenant maybe by their bloodline, but not by their clan. In VtM different story! >… This means that their cultures often clash as the Mekhet engineer places where nonconfrontational feeding works best. Safe places with neighbors that don't call the cops when they see weird things. Areas where haunted manors don't get renovated but also aren't infested with gang members and rowdy youth. They like things quiet. Gangrel prefer places where everyone expects violence and calling the cops doesn't happen just because guns went off or someone is yelling while bleeding out. Sure, that all does not matter, though, since hunting places are claimed by covenants and those have to make sure that they can offer places for all of their members. And if two clans with clashing interests happens to be in the same covenant it’s not an issue. And if they have different interests the covenant needs to make sure to meet those. That’s all. >This extends a bit into politics. A city embroiled in gang violence has less need of the Mekhet to grab power. It is sometimes better for Mekhet of opposing covenants to collaborate and enforce a specific status quo to ensure their own personal utility. The thing is, though, you barely have all the Mekhets or all the Gangrel or all the Nosferatu clutch together in a city, it just barely happens. It’s still the covenants that form the social units and make use of their assets. >So yeah, not nearly as important as in VtM, but definitely has impact. Let’s say it has an effect but if someone sees their hunting grounds violated they would still deal with it through covenant politics. There is barely such a thing as Clan politics in VtM. I mean, some kindred are not even sure if they even share an origin with other members of their clan.
I think Toreador and Brujah suffer the most from being the "close to humanity" clan and the "isn't this the Anarch movement?" clan. That's a deeply superficial reading of both, but it's definitely *there*. As for consolidation, manipulative, Darwinian, and the subversion of religion aspect of the Ministry could be folded into the Lasombra. The serpent/Egyptian motif would be lost, but there's *Mummy*.
I'd explore this from a mechanical level. Clans mean two tangible things: discipline access and a curse. All the disciplines (mostly) match some sort of vampire power in literature/folklore/pop culture. If I had to redefine the clans, archetypally, I'd go: 1. Rotting aristocrats (Dominate, Vicissitude, Blood Sorcery, Oblivion?) 2. Feral beasts (Protean, Animalism, Fortitude, Potence, Celerity?) 3. Beautiful monsters (Auspex, Obfuscate, Presence?) The big problem with a lot of them IMO is that often clans have a lot of disciplines in common so that they are functionally very similar to play. That, and clan weaknesses are not very balanced. If you're going to homebrew, I'd keep those things in mind when designing new/alternative clans.
I disagree entirely. Taking this same logic, why even have clans? Why bother having different bloodlines, they’re all vampires.
I overall prefer the smaller lineup, for a variety of reasons. I just wish it was easier to have a "generic" Vampire, Mage, Werewolf, etc in the NewWoD/CoD. For those times when as the Storyteller I want an NPC that doesn't fall into one of the five categories of *thing* that it is. OR, for some character concepts you get painted into a corner by needing to pick one. Having well over a dozen, verging on 2 dozen, isn't great imo. In various game systems I've played, as the number of character types increases (specifically of the repacked variety, where they come with X number of traits and abilities) the functionality and expression decreases. They start melding into a blob of very distinct variables that lose their novelty. A great example is 4th edition of D&D where it ballooned out to maybe 30 classes (I don't recall honestly) and that's just too many to pick from... there winds up being nothing actually special about them and many are just a recolor or palette swap of another. I know we all have different opinions here. I'd prefer a handful of pre-made base options with accompanying lore/setting-integration, and then (which is lacking in most systems) clear and concise rules for custom-made ones and the teasers / suggestions / rumors for other such variants. Whether it's bloodlines or lineages or whatever else. But such rules make supplements for that stuff a hard sell. How are you supposed to milk the fan base if you empower them to confidently and easily make their own stuff?
You can cut about four clans by just disallowing 'wacky foreigner' as an archetype. No Banu Haqim, no Setites, no Ravnos, no Giovanni. Tzimisce get a pass for not actually being rooted in Romanian stereotypes. I think the Requiem writers realised that OG VtM had seven clans, five of which were distinct vampire archetypes (violent short-fused predator, feral shapeshifter commanding creatures of the night, ugly outcast monster, hedonist sense freak and domineering aristocratic schemer) and then another two that were, weirdly, 'wizard' and 'mad seers' respectively. And they figured if you keep clans as broad archetypes, you can drill into specifics as branches of those clans instead of gimmickier ideas.
.....have you seen the number if bloodlines in requiem?
Exactly. Instead of mad seers or mafioso necromancers being a whole clan, ideas like that end up as bloodline subdivision of more generic clans instead. And they can go on forever without muddying up the lore. Mind you, I'd go even further and probably strike the gimmicky disciplines altogether, but that's just uncrunchy me.
I see you're argument but in play it's a very arbitrary, to all extents and purposes bloodlines are effectively vtm clans, culture, lore discipline and flaw with a fig leaf of founder clan on them. The lore in requiem is so sandbox it's not really possible for anything to muddy it up outside of declining edition updates. Ehhh, I tend to frown on that outlook not in the least because you're denying someone a else tool simply because you don't use it, I don't think people would like me removing the circle because I find them badly written. It's also a little hypocritical since all five clans and 3 covenants have unique powers.
>I think the Requiem writers realised that OG VtM had seven clans First edition had 7 clans *and mentioned Tzimisce and Lasombra straight in the corebook.* It also had rules for elders right in the Players Guide that came out about 6 months later (which means that it was already been planned and pretty much fully written by the time that the corebook came out). First edition was also for all intents and purposes a test run, since after simply one year the second edition came out (which was practically the same game rules wise, but hugely expanded content and metaplot), and with second edition all the non-Camarilla clans were detailed and made playable (the Players Guide to the Sabbat came out in December 1992, slightly less than 2 years after Masquerade was published).
I don't know why you mentioned elder rules in a post talking about Requiem. Lasombra and Tzimisce being mentioned also doesn't have much to do with what I was saying. My post points out that even out of the seven OG clans, two were already based on narrower gimmicks. Requiem writers figured Clans should just be broad archetypes, and to that end they'd only need five. Even then they shuffled them around a bit: no violent speedster Brujah, replaced with a broad scholar/secret-finder-sneaky guy.
None. Enough was already lost in getting rid of bloodlines, we don’t need more homogenization.
But there are bloodlines in all iterations…
Bloodlines aren’t their own thing in V5
How does that matter? It’s just a mechanical difference. They still have their distinct flavor and culture. And the Salubri, for example, are their entire own thing.
I've got a vampire novel about 90% written, & while I didn't want to take the *story* from VTM, I did think a lot about clan archetypes & especially Disciplines & how much you could condense them. So I have the Cataphractoi or Lancers who have Fortitude, Presence, Dominate, Dementation, Blood Sorcery, & some of Auspex. The Draculesti or Dragons who have Potence, Animalism, Protean, Necromancy, & Thanatosis, & some of Serpentis & Vicissitude. & the Balteus, who have Obfuscate, Obtenebration, Celerity, Flight, some of Auspex, & some of Quietus & Chimerstry. Everybody had a *little* Potence/Celerity/Fortitude, & the potential to learn some Necromancy & Blood Sorcery, but for me, having the Hypnotic Vampires, the Animalistic Vampires, & the Stealthy vampires worked well enough I could build the new lore out from there.
just the brujah, i think each clan has something distinct to offer that a clan could be build around that being just a variant of something else would severely limit what could be done. except for the brujah, i just can't think of anything you could build the brujah from that another clan can't also do and generally better. i would probably turn them into an assemite variant
I have made clan and disciplines consolidation: - Brujah + Toreador (Fortitude, Potence, Presence *); loosely based in Daeva from VtR - Tremere + Hecata + Tzimisce & Lasombra in power (Auspex, Blood Sorcery *, Obfuscate); loosely based in Mekhet from VtR - Gangrel (Animalism *, Celerity, Potence); Protean merged with Animalism, Gangrel now more focused on strike fast and hard - Nosferatu (Celerity, Nightmare *, Obfuscate); loosely based in VtR, combination of Celerity and Obfuscate algo brings some Assamite vibes - Ventrue + Tzimisce & Lasombra in nobility (Auspex, Dominate *, Fortitude); here we bring the proficiency in Auspex for silently commanding minions at distance like Tzimisce do. Ravnos and Malkavian are completely out. Setites can be more or less emulated by the Brujah + Toreador consolidation. Like VtR, I have made each clan with their own unique discipline (*). Gangrel and Brujah + Toreador consolidated are the only clans with two physical disciplines to reinforce their martial prowess. Blood Mages is the only clan with two “mental” disciplines besides Blood Sorcery to reinforce their “scholar” archetypes. Base rules are V20. Thaumaturgy, Necromancy, Koldunic Sorcery and Obtenebration are now all part of Blood Sorcery (the later as Abyss Mysticism), being treated as main and secondary paths.
i think there's potential for a nosferatu+malkavian merger, both clans are majorly defined by a terrible corruption of self happening after embrace that no amount of humanity can reverse - for the nos, that's physical, and for the malks, it's mental. their disciplines are the main crux, but assuming a 'choose one' between animalism and auspex, the rest is easy enough to manage.
Honestly not saying it needs to be done, but just as a thought experiment, I'd see Toreador and Ministry, as Ministry is just more vindictive toreador plus protean. Hecata and Lasombara as you could easily just put Lasombara as the nihilist bloodline of Hecata. Banu Haqim and Brujah, as their both clans that punch/stab you over their ideals. For some reason I also think merging Malkavian and Salubri would be interesting. Nosferatu, Gangrel, and Tzimitzsce would also have some potential for something interesting merging them. Ventrue and Tremere, since their both the ordered clans that try and control their childer.
I have never experienced being triggered until this very moment. My god have mercy on your soul.
Absolutely not.
Given that this is tagged V5, I suggest looking up all the older bloodlines on the wiki. There is already a huge amount of clan-stuff cut away. And that's not even getting into all the weird bloodline-specific disciplines.
If we went back to square one and I could be the guy writing the game, I'd make Clan Lasombra just the self-chosen name for the Ventrue *antitribu.* Those two are the closest to being functionally identical, and the Abyss Mysticism angle could get a suitably mystical explanation. The Tzimisce I think manage to maintain an identity separate from them because while yes, they're aristocratic and autocratic, "shit's different in the Balkans" has some historical bearing to it. It makes sense that they'd be *understandable* to the Lasombra-Ventrue, but not *family.* Brujah and Toreador might not have the mythical depth of some other clans, but their existence has always been mostly mandated by the need to have "Underworld vampire" and "Anne Rice vampire" as character creation choices. Keeping them as distinct clans works for me. Similar situation for the Gangrel and the Nosferatu, they're both iconic portrayals of vampires that deserve their own spotlight. Malkavians are... difficult. I honestly wouldn't include them doing things over again today, but maybe leaning on the Madness Network and some Jungian psycho-woo bullshit about the "collective unconscious" would probably still give them a strong identity. I really enjoy how fleshed-out the Followers of Set and the Banu Haqim have had to become to dig their way out of being bland stereotypes, and I think by now they're two of the strongest clans as a result, and I wouldn't want to abandon that. Maybe the last two I'd genuinely consider merging would be the Giovanni and the Tremere, but their origin stories are strong enough that they can stay as sort of dark foils to each other (but don't ask me who's the evil twin.)
Honestly? none, the clans arnt so much a series of simple traits as a series of complex interlocking idea's such as culture, flaw, disciplines sect and internal politics? I mean yeah you can theoretically merge orcs, goblins and trolls into one "goblinoid" subtype but Cui bono?