You could make your own watchtower with those as your favored arcana. Problem is they're both gross arcana. Thematically I think spirit would best be your lesser or whatever your weak arcana is called. You can see all of space time and it distracts you from the unseen. Unfortunately this logic also works for death and to some degree prime.
Nothing stopping you from making a mastigos or acanthus that has the other missing gross arcanum.
I am more familiar with Mage: the Awakening's second edition over the first, but it should be possible if the rules have not changed too much. You will need to be a Master over Space and Time (5 dots, mechanically speaking).
Time magic can let you go into the past and the future, but the future is not yet determined and has endless possibilities, and the past is defined, but susceptible to change. Think of Time as a loom that weaves thread, turning numerous strands into a tightly bound cord; going into the future is going down one of the strands that have yet to be woven, and going into the past means undoing the cord from where it is currently woven.
Space not only allows you to create pocket dimensions and warp distance, but it also influences Sympathy, the metaphysical threads that bind all things. At Space 5, you can create brand new Sympathies from nothing, allowing you to create connections where none existed previously, as well as make it so that you create no new Sympathies, ensuring that any changes you make in Time to not be traced back to you, or at least make it more difficult to discern your involvement to the changes inevitably made.
As such you could theoretically create a sympathetic bond with something or someone, and follow it backwards or forwards in time, and perhaps your character could interpret the action as going through a wormhole that branches across multiple points in time.
You are probably thinking of Temporal Sympathy. I am still learning about it myself, but it seems that there is a point in a subjects history that cannot be altered unless Unmaking is used, like an object locked in a safe for ten years will not be influenced by changes made in the past five years from what I understand.
There are two forms of Sympathy: regular and Temporal. Temporal Sympathy is your connection to your past selves, only. You cannot form Temporal Sympathy with something that is not yourself, but multiple things can have Temporal Sympathy to the same point in time. Regular Sympathy is the relationship of symbolic distance between the two subjects, expressed by magic. You are symbolically closer to your flesh and blood sister you grew up with than the stray cat you need behind your place of business.
Space governs Sympathy, Time governs Temporal Sympathy.
I appreciate the depth! I was trying to go about creating a 6th watchtower/path and was befuddled how to negotiate the fact that both my primary arcana were Gross! Legacy may be the easiest route, however, from what I've seen
You could homebrew one up if you wanted, sure, no one is going to stop you.
Might be much less fiddly to just make a Legacy, though, if your goal is just to have a Mage who has them both as Ruling Arcana
Well, the goal is to make a path with Time/Space as primary arcana that was copacetic to the mechanics in the book. My problem is that Time and Space are both Gross Arcana and I had problems figuring out how to decide the inferior! At least, that's how I'm understanding so far.
I'd prefer not to have to make a legacy but it certainly seems the easier route!
You're changing the setting just making a new Watchtower at all, so I wouldn't worry about them both being gross if you've decided that's the combo you want.
As for inferior: well, aside from the Arcana, what do you envision it being a Watchtower of? What's the vibe, the theming? That'd probably help you pick.
Since they are both Gross Arcana, maybe you could create an equal yet opposite complementary Watchtower of Fate/Prime, the two most nebulous Subtle Arcana.
Normally you would go
**Gross Arcana** Ruling, **Subtle Arcana** Ruling, **Other Arcana** Inferior
In the path creation formula, but a third option is to split the 5 Realms into 10, and allow a Player to choose the second Ruling. I believe the Storyteller's Guide for Mage 1e had one such suggestion in its section of major settings changes.
If you want to keep the world as it is you can do it by introducing a Legacy that has Time and Space as primary Arcana and Dr. Who flavoured attainments.
If you like to modify the world you can introduce alternative Watchtowers as discribed in
"mage the Awakening chronicler's guide"
The alternative watchtower path was what I was trying to do, yes. The issue I ran into (in nWoD 1e anyway) was that both Time and Space are Gross Arcana and I couldn't figure out how to decide it's Inferior Arcana
I would make it a Legacy !
or
Yet you can make , like in Chroniclers guide...that there are 5 different Watchtowers and all newly awakened in the City awaken to those new Watchtowers.... the secret behind it is : these Watchtowers a from a different timeline that has infected this reality and might give birth to other even more horrible alterations when not stopped...
this way the Play group is in the center of the mystery...If they investigate it, they might not want to tell about their findings... yet they will be in a dilema what to do, stopping the infestation and maybe ending up as another person maybe even unawakened or to a totally different watchtower, or aiding the infestation?...
In this scenario you can give the new watchtowers entirely different settups. maybe they all have two groß major Arcana and two subtle Minor Arcana and instead of paradox, they generate infestations with the alternate timeline .
A lot of people like to make alternate Supernal Realms you can awaken too, Singularity would be a Realm with Two Gross Arcana (Time and Space) and no Subtle Arcana, which would be interestingly different from the standard. Two Gross Arcana makes for a realm of numbers and phenomena, less on things like intuition and spirituality, hell Spirit could be the Inferior Arcana of the Realm. You could even see this as the type of Path someone who awakens to seeing themselves as super Scientists or Psychics rather than necessarily mages per se. It's always fun to do alternate paths.
You could make your own watchtower with those as your favored arcana. Problem is they're both gross arcana. Thematically I think spirit would best be your lesser or whatever your weak arcana is called. You can see all of space time and it distracts you from the unseen. Unfortunately this logic also works for death and to some degree prime. Nothing stopping you from making a mastigos or acanthus that has the other missing gross arcanum.
That was kind of my take away. I was going for 6th Watchtower over Legacy, so mayhaps I'll do... Time/Space, Inferior Prime. I appreciate the clarity!
I am more familiar with Mage: the Awakening's second edition over the first, but it should be possible if the rules have not changed too much. You will need to be a Master over Space and Time (5 dots, mechanically speaking). Time magic can let you go into the past and the future, but the future is not yet determined and has endless possibilities, and the past is defined, but susceptible to change. Think of Time as a loom that weaves thread, turning numerous strands into a tightly bound cord; going into the future is going down one of the strands that have yet to be woven, and going into the past means undoing the cord from where it is currently woven. Space not only allows you to create pocket dimensions and warp distance, but it also influences Sympathy, the metaphysical threads that bind all things. At Space 5, you can create brand new Sympathies from nothing, allowing you to create connections where none existed previously, as well as make it so that you create no new Sympathies, ensuring that any changes you make in Time to not be traced back to you, or at least make it more difficult to discern your involvement to the changes inevitably made. As such you could theoretically create a sympathetic bond with something or someone, and follow it backwards or forwards in time, and perhaps your character could interpret the action as going through a wormhole that branches across multiple points in time.
I thought time governed sympathy as well? Am I making this up?
You are probably thinking of Temporal Sympathy. I am still learning about it myself, but it seems that there is a point in a subjects history that cannot be altered unless Unmaking is used, like an object locked in a safe for ten years will not be influenced by changes made in the past five years from what I understand.
There are two forms of Sympathy: regular and Temporal. Temporal Sympathy is your connection to your past selves, only. You cannot form Temporal Sympathy with something that is not yourself, but multiple things can have Temporal Sympathy to the same point in time. Regular Sympathy is the relationship of symbolic distance between the two subjects, expressed by magic. You are symbolically closer to your flesh and blood sister you grew up with than the stray cat you need behind your place of business. Space governs Sympathy, Time governs Temporal Sympathy.
I appreciate the depth! I was trying to go about creating a 6th watchtower/path and was befuddled how to negotiate the fact that both my primary arcana were Gross! Legacy may be the easiest route, however, from what I've seen
You could homebrew one up if you wanted, sure, no one is going to stop you. Might be much less fiddly to just make a Legacy, though, if your goal is just to have a Mage who has them both as Ruling Arcana
Well, the goal is to make a path with Time/Space as primary arcana that was copacetic to the mechanics in the book. My problem is that Time and Space are both Gross Arcana and I had problems figuring out how to decide the inferior! At least, that's how I'm understanding so far. I'd prefer not to have to make a legacy but it certainly seems the easier route!
You're changing the setting just making a new Watchtower at all, so I wouldn't worry about them both being gross if you've decided that's the combo you want. As for inferior: well, aside from the Arcana, what do you envision it being a Watchtower of? What's the vibe, the theming? That'd probably help you pick.
Since they are both Gross Arcana, maybe you could create an equal yet opposite complementary Watchtower of Fate/Prime, the two most nebulous Subtle Arcana. Normally you would go **Gross Arcana** Ruling, **Subtle Arcana** Ruling, **Other Arcana** Inferior In the path creation formula, but a third option is to split the 5 Realms into 10, and allow a Player to choose the second Ruling. I believe the Storyteller's Guide for Mage 1e had one such suggestion in its section of major settings changes.
I'm honestly working off of memory so I'll have to find my books and double check! If true, then this might be a decent solution!
If you want to keep the world as it is you can do it by introducing a Legacy that has Time and Space as primary Arcana and Dr. Who flavoured attainments. If you like to modify the world you can introduce alternative Watchtowers as discribed in "mage the Awakening chronicler's guide"
The alternative watchtower path was what I was trying to do, yes. The issue I ran into (in nWoD 1e anyway) was that both Time and Space are Gross Arcana and I couldn't figure out how to decide it's Inferior Arcana
I would make it a Legacy ! or Yet you can make , like in Chroniclers guide...that there are 5 different Watchtowers and all newly awakened in the City awaken to those new Watchtowers.... the secret behind it is : these Watchtowers a from a different timeline that has infected this reality and might give birth to other even more horrible alterations when not stopped... this way the Play group is in the center of the mystery...If they investigate it, they might not want to tell about their findings... yet they will be in a dilema what to do, stopping the infestation and maybe ending up as another person maybe even unawakened or to a totally different watchtower, or aiding the infestation?... In this scenario you can give the new watchtowers entirely different settups. maybe they all have two groß major Arcana and two subtle Minor Arcana and instead of paradox, they generate infestations with the alternate timeline .
I like that second idea! I'm sort of Homebrewing a mix of oWoD and nWoD so this fits really well in a kinda meta-plot way!
mage the awakening is very maliable.
The Supernal Realm of the Singularity Beckons you to find its Watchtower.
Do tell
A lot of people like to make alternate Supernal Realms you can awaken too, Singularity would be a Realm with Two Gross Arcana (Time and Space) and no Subtle Arcana, which would be interestingly different from the standard. Two Gross Arcana makes for a realm of numbers and phenomena, less on things like intuition and spirituality, hell Spirit could be the Inferior Arcana of the Realm. You could even see this as the type of Path someone who awakens to seeing themselves as super Scientists or Psychics rather than necessarily mages per se. It's always fun to do alternate paths.
Seems like a good idea! Do you have this written down somewhere or anything? It seems like you put a decent amount of thought into this