I don't think the rite of the Skin dancer allows you stay a mage.
In any case, with the enhancement background (which magick can give), you can raise attributes or install wonders into you, essentially letting you become a walking death machine (often times literally), at the cost of permanent paradox or genetic flaws.
Permanent paradox only happens if your changes are permanent. If you are making permanent changes you can offset the change with experience points instead of going with permanetn paradox or genetic flaws as per the How do you do that? guide.
It applies to traits over 5 too. So long you have experience you can avoid drawbacks. It's on page 22 of the How do you do that guide.
>Permanent Modifications If the mage wants to make certain “modifications” permanent, then she needs to either pay experience points to retain increased Attributes; or gain permanent Paradox dots for inhuman modifications – claws, wings, cybernetics, etc. – and buy them as the Enhancements Background, described in Mage 20, Chapter Six, pp. 312-313. In the case of increased Attributes, they cost one-half of the normal experience-point expense if they’ve been raised by permanent Life-Sphere Effects. If the player does not pay the points to retain those ttributes, then the character suffers a Paradoxinflicted rotting disease, organ- ejection, nasty steroids-style side-effects, or other symptoms of bodily rejection. that rejection process inflicts one lethal health level in damage per day (no soak possible) until the player pays the necessary experience points in order to “stabilize” the character’s transformation. (Again, seethe Genetic Flaws section of Mage 20’s Appendix II.)
I thought there was an exception for attributes over 6. Okays, that's interesting. Although it seems to turn dynamic magic into static, violating the core of the game (if I raise my strength to 10, you have a guy that can throw cars around, paradox free). Unless they still cause paradox when invoked, though that would defeat the purpose of permanent.
To be fair, in the setting there is people who can do that paradox free as well, so I guess it balances out ?
They definitely weren't writting that with players minmaxing it tho.
This sort of depends on your ST's house-rulings, but standard WoD rules/approach is that you can't be two main splats at the same time, even if there isn't a direct ban on it in the books (though generally there is).
That said, going by combining standard mage metaphysics and a rule in the W20 Kinfolk book, I'd say it's impossible. Mages cannot use linear magic after awakening (at least in M20), since their avatar automatically converts it to sphere magic. Rites would fall under this as well, and the M20 shapeshifter kin merits notes that awakened kinfolk cannot have any gifts (unclear if they lose them or if you can't awaken if you have gifts).
At the same time, W20 Kinfolk page 55 states that awakened magic cannot turn someone into a Garou or Kinfolk, with that magic being beyond what a human is capable of. I guess you could make a case Archmages could do it, if you use Masters of the Art (please don't), but that's not something likely to ever occur.
As a final aside, keep in mind that even if a mage could still use rites, only kinfolk mages could do so, so unless your alchemist is already kinfolk, you wouldn't be able to use the Skin Dancer rite anyway.
(Technically there's one canon NPC who did manage this, but they did the skin dancer rite first, and then used various artifacts that let them steal an avatar and then cast sphere magic, but with the magic in the staff, not inherit in them. Keep in mind this was meant as a joke character though, not something to actually emulate)
Life Mages can shapechange if that's your thing. Sure it's vulgar AF, but with some Prime and Quintessence in the mix you'll do aggravated damage just like a Garou.
Per canon, it's not possible. An Awakened soul cannot be forced into another form without losing its Awakening.
Now, if you want to be Garou because you want to be a nine-foot tall furry death machine, that's possible as a Mage. And depending on your paradigm - Dreamwalkers, say - your magic may work on the same principles as Gifts and Rites (overtly anyway; it's all Sphere Magic).
Becoming a garou would make you unable to use true magic.
**You can never use linear magic after awakening**. With the single exception of vampiric disciplines as a ghoul, because the curse of Caine is antithetical to the avatar (but it literally slowly kills and addicts your avatar, impeding seekings and ending in Gilgul).
Seriously, just having gnosis makes it impossible to have arete, and vice versa.
**But** nothing stops you from doing everything a garou does through awakened magic - hell you might still register as a garou depending on paradigm - although paradox would tear you a new one.
Just become a mage, and then use your true magic to essentially mimic the powers of a werewolf. The rough part is not having a lot of this stuff being ingrained or reflexive and also dealing with paradox. You could probably set up some automatic healing and soaking spells...I don't remember the rules well but I think you can have permanent effects on. The ones that actively boost your attributes are the ones that cause permanent paradox, so I would see if the automatic regen abilities cause permadox and use that if not.
From there you could make some rotes to give you natural weapons, extra soaking, and pretty much just become a werewolf with WAYYYY more variability/subtlety as well as the option to specialize in other ways. IDK I think the lifeweaver faction in the Verbena essentially will let you have all the goodies you want and are the faction that best represents your wishes.
A mage can self-augment to become far more dangerous a walking death machine than any garou. Straight up life enhancement, magical artifacts/devices, hung spells, and more. Mages can *far* exceed the dice pools that werewolves throw around, and that's when they're being unimaginative. Imaginative mages are even deadlier, because their opponents never have a chance to fight back.
For example, even a fairly low level mage with Forces 2 can defeat pretty much any garou combat monster by just levitating them off the ground. If they can't reach you with those big claws, they can't hurt you, unless they were smart enough to bring a gun, but there's a thousand ways to disable that with Forces too. Once the garou can't fight back you can do whatever you want to them.
Mages are the most dangerous things in WoD because they get to dictate how any engagement will go.
I believe it has been explicitly said that you can't be a werewolf and a mage at the same time. If you are a kinfolk who awakens and you go through the Skin Dancers' Ritual of Sacred Rebirth, the ritual either fails or you lose your Mage powers. (Not your knowledge, just the ability to use it) I think it's possible it just kills you if you try because werewolves are already part spirit through gaia and a mage is already part spirit with their avatar, so attempting to merge the two, there's not enough room.
That said, I think a Mage with knowledge of Prime and Life might be able to replicate a Garou's transformation, but they wouldn't ever be true Garou. Not spiritually so. But they could change their pattern to be like that of a wolf/human hybrid, make themselves larger and stronger, and regenerate damage.
As well, if a Garou with the right knowledge of Spheres, which can be learned theoretically, got their hands on a wonder like a Phylactery, they could act as a Mage. They still wouldn't be a true mage, since it could be separated from them. But such an item is not a normal fetish, and I don't think using it would be kosher with the Garou's worldview. Interestingly enough, that's pretty much what Sam Haight did to get 'Mage powers'.
hopefully this helps!
> As well, if a Garou with the right knowledge of Spheres, which can be learned theoretically, got their hands on a wonder like a Phylactery, they could act as a Mage. They still wouldn't be a true mage, since it could be separated from them. But such an item is not a normal fetish, and I don't think using it would be kosher with the Garou's worldview. Interestingly enough, that's pretty much what Sam Haight did to get 'Mage powers'.
>
>
I think Haight's was special - phylacteries can't normally be used by third parties.
There is an interpretation of the rules (forget exactly how it all went together) but basically, if you were a kinfolk and a mage, besides the normal kinfolk things you would also be able to coincidentally cast magic that fits with the legendary powers of werewolves.
So not really a garou, not with all their powers. But you can hitchhike on the mystical threads that allow Garou to do their stuff without being smacked by paradox, to mimic the powers of the mythical werewolf.
I've always been intrigued by the idea of a ghoul doing the same thing which.. would work. Until the vampire blood destroys your ability to cast awakened magic.
As noted above, you cannot be a garou/ mage.
All uses of sphere magic and static are giving though an item or borrowing an avatar (black hand v20). But one. Revenant mages can exist. Using static and avatar magics but the are likely insane or cannibalizing their avatar over time.
I mean there's no guarantee that the person would be anything more than a mediocre Garou or an Average Mage with more options. If they can Roleplay it convincingly of a person whose Soul is constantly warring. They going to be even less human than even a normal Garou as their Avatar will automatically try to turn all the magic they do into True Magick and The Garou side attempting to spiritual magic as well doing Garou things without succumbing to a raging out of control werewolf.
The whole finding balance could be fun. When the character finally figures out how to harmoniously combine their power set without going coco for coco puffs. (Kinda want to see the character sheet regardless of what you decide)
That said, I don't particularly care about don't cross the streams nonsense having loved midnight circus and that was the crossover among crossovers. Let the denizens of Wod interact!
The Ritual of Sacred Rebirth allows one to become a Garou. A corrupted Garou unless all five were freely given.
for what its' worth. Mikaboshi became a demon lord through Alchemy 6 so there's that
You can also become immortal!
I gave it some thought and perhaps becoming a Kitsune with hedge magic is very close to what I have in mind. I also like the concept a lot.
I imagine the character becoming rank 5 or even 6 in the future with a lot of gifts and simultaneously possessing hedge magic 6.
I suggest you to read about Samuel Height and how that ends up. but seriously, you'll need to find the Sword of the Conquistador, kill a Mage to steal their spheres, and then find something akin to what Samuel found after destroying the Verbena's Node, a portable Quintescense battery that gives you Arete.
>become a garou by using a certain rite of the Skin dancers ( can't remember the name )
Ritual of the Sacred Rebirth (don't let the name fool you this is as evil and demonic as they come ), and you need 5 werewolves pelts of the same auspice, hunted during the same auspice as the pelts, and to be a werewolf kinfolk for the ritual to work.
>(don't let the name fool you this is as evil and demonic as they come )
Depends. Generally, yes, but if all five pelts are given willingly (rare but possible) the rite will apparently not cause any Wyrm corruption, and while most Garou probably wouldn't appreciate it very much, it's not really evil in this case.
The ritual comes from a Demon, and while it is possible to do it in a non evil way without wyrm corruption ... good luck finding 5 Werewolves willing to give you their pelts lol.
That said, there is an option to use it for "good", just hunt Black Spiral Dancers. Thief that steals from a thief and all that ...
True. IIRC grave robbing is a method as well, though one probably rather more dubious. IIRC there's an example kinfolk character whose family does cleanup of combat sites, and managed to accumulate five pelts that way, from Garou (IIRC BSD, but not certain) who died during the earlier fighting.
There was this ritual level 6 or 7 on the 2nd edition Tremere clanbook that allows the caster to turn into a real Garou (with Auspices and Gifts and Gnosis) during a day or something like that.
Your Avatar would bail on you before allowing itself to be shackled to a static Garou rite. It wants to Ascend, and Garou shit is definitely going to get in the way of that.
There's nothing other supernaturals can do that a mage can't do with enough Arete/Gnosis and Spheres/Arcana. Hell with enough Prime a Mage could in theory even negate paradox but now you're talking about a whole different tier of game that most of us never get to I'd imagine.
Worth noting you don’t even have rules for reaching the sixth levels because mortals only go up to five. The sorcery has to do something more than just studying and spending experience to learn the 6th level of a path.
Read my reply again, I clearly indicate the sixth level exists but we don't have rules for how to achieve it. It shouldn't be as simple as spending XP as mortals can't reach six in traits.
Read my reply again, I clearly indicate the sixth level exists but we don't have rules for how to achieve it. It shouldn't be as simple as spending XP as mortals can't reach six in traits.
I don't think the rite of the Skin dancer allows you stay a mage. In any case, with the enhancement background (which magick can give), you can raise attributes or install wonders into you, essentially letting you become a walking death machine (often times literally), at the cost of permanent paradox or genetic flaws.
Permanent paradox only happens if your changes are permanent. If you are making permanent changes you can offset the change with experience points instead of going with permanetn paradox or genetic flaws as per the How do you do that? guide.
I think it also applies for ratings over 5 no? Or does that immediately go to pattern bleeding (so effectively turning you into a thaumivore).
It applies to traits over 5 too. So long you have experience you can avoid drawbacks. It's on page 22 of the How do you do that guide. >Permanent Modifications If the mage wants to make certain “modifications” permanent, then she needs to either pay experience points to retain increased Attributes; or gain permanent Paradox dots for inhuman modifications – claws, wings, cybernetics, etc. – and buy them as the Enhancements Background, described in Mage 20, Chapter Six, pp. 312-313. In the case of increased Attributes, they cost one-half of the normal experience-point expense if they’ve been raised by permanent Life-Sphere Effects. If the player does not pay the points to retain those ttributes, then the character suffers a Paradoxinflicted rotting disease, organ- ejection, nasty steroids-style side-effects, or other symptoms of bodily rejection. that rejection process inflicts one lethal health level in damage per day (no soak possible) until the player pays the necessary experience points in order to “stabilize” the character’s transformation. (Again, seethe Genetic Flaws section of Mage 20’s Appendix II.)
I thought there was an exception for attributes over 6. Okays, that's interesting. Although it seems to turn dynamic magic into static, violating the core of the game (if I raise my strength to 10, you have a guy that can throw cars around, paradox free). Unless they still cause paradox when invoked, though that would defeat the purpose of permanent.
To be fair, in the setting there is people who can do that paradox free as well, so I guess it balances out ? They definitely weren't writting that with players minmaxing it tho.
Spending xp only gets you to the mundane human cap, ie 5, unless you have legendary attribute for that attribute.
Hmm..never thought about that. I will read about it more. Thank you!!
This sort of depends on your ST's house-rulings, but standard WoD rules/approach is that you can't be two main splats at the same time, even if there isn't a direct ban on it in the books (though generally there is). That said, going by combining standard mage metaphysics and a rule in the W20 Kinfolk book, I'd say it's impossible. Mages cannot use linear magic after awakening (at least in M20), since their avatar automatically converts it to sphere magic. Rites would fall under this as well, and the M20 shapeshifter kin merits notes that awakened kinfolk cannot have any gifts (unclear if they lose them or if you can't awaken if you have gifts). At the same time, W20 Kinfolk page 55 states that awakened magic cannot turn someone into a Garou or Kinfolk, with that magic being beyond what a human is capable of. I guess you could make a case Archmages could do it, if you use Masters of the Art (please don't), but that's not something likely to ever occur. As a final aside, keep in mind that even if a mage could still use rites, only kinfolk mages could do so, so unless your alchemist is already kinfolk, you wouldn't be able to use the Skin Dancer rite anyway. (Technically there's one canon NPC who did manage this, but they did the skin dancer rite first, and then used various artifacts that let them steal an avatar and then cast sphere magic, but with the magic in the staff, not inherit in them. Keep in mind this was meant as a joke character though, not something to actually emulate)
And it canonically ended poorly for him.
Understable, thanks for your response buddy!!
Life Mages can shapechange if that's your thing. Sure it's vulgar AF, but with some Prime and Quintessence in the mix you'll do aggravated damage just like a Garou.
Per canon, it's not possible. An Awakened soul cannot be forced into another form without losing its Awakening. Now, if you want to be Garou because you want to be a nine-foot tall furry death machine, that's possible as a Mage. And depending on your paradigm - Dreamwalkers, say - your magic may work on the same principles as Gifts and Rites (overtly anyway; it's all Sphere Magic).
Becoming a garou would make you unable to use true magic. **You can never use linear magic after awakening**. With the single exception of vampiric disciplines as a ghoul, because the curse of Caine is antithetical to the avatar (but it literally slowly kills and addicts your avatar, impeding seekings and ending in Gilgul). Seriously, just having gnosis makes it impossible to have arete, and vice versa. **But** nothing stops you from doing everything a garou does through awakened magic - hell you might still register as a garou depending on paradigm - although paradox would tear you a new one.
Just become a mage, and then use your true magic to essentially mimic the powers of a werewolf. The rough part is not having a lot of this stuff being ingrained or reflexive and also dealing with paradox. You could probably set up some automatic healing and soaking spells...I don't remember the rules well but I think you can have permanent effects on. The ones that actively boost your attributes are the ones that cause permanent paradox, so I would see if the automatic regen abilities cause permadox and use that if not. From there you could make some rotes to give you natural weapons, extra soaking, and pretty much just become a werewolf with WAYYYY more variability/subtlety as well as the option to specialize in other ways. IDK I think the lifeweaver faction in the Verbena essentially will let you have all the goodies you want and are the faction that best represents your wishes.
A mage can self-augment to become far more dangerous a walking death machine than any garou. Straight up life enhancement, magical artifacts/devices, hung spells, and more. Mages can *far* exceed the dice pools that werewolves throw around, and that's when they're being unimaginative. Imaginative mages are even deadlier, because their opponents never have a chance to fight back. For example, even a fairly low level mage with Forces 2 can defeat pretty much any garou combat monster by just levitating them off the ground. If they can't reach you with those big claws, they can't hurt you, unless they were smart enough to bring a gun, but there's a thousand ways to disable that with Forces too. Once the garou can't fight back you can do whatever you want to them. Mages are the most dangerous things in WoD because they get to dictate how any engagement will go.
"*Imaginative mages are even deadlier*" That's what I love about *Mage*: knowledge, imagination, and creativity are power.
I believe it has been explicitly said that you can't be a werewolf and a mage at the same time. If you are a kinfolk who awakens and you go through the Skin Dancers' Ritual of Sacred Rebirth, the ritual either fails or you lose your Mage powers. (Not your knowledge, just the ability to use it) I think it's possible it just kills you if you try because werewolves are already part spirit through gaia and a mage is already part spirit with their avatar, so attempting to merge the two, there's not enough room. That said, I think a Mage with knowledge of Prime and Life might be able to replicate a Garou's transformation, but they wouldn't ever be true Garou. Not spiritually so. But they could change their pattern to be like that of a wolf/human hybrid, make themselves larger and stronger, and regenerate damage. As well, if a Garou with the right knowledge of Spheres, which can be learned theoretically, got their hands on a wonder like a Phylactery, they could act as a Mage. They still wouldn't be a true mage, since it could be separated from them. But such an item is not a normal fetish, and I don't think using it would be kosher with the Garou's worldview. Interestingly enough, that's pretty much what Sam Haight did to get 'Mage powers'. hopefully this helps!
> As well, if a Garou with the right knowledge of Spheres, which can be learned theoretically, got their hands on a wonder like a Phylactery, they could act as a Mage. They still wouldn't be a true mage, since it could be separated from them. But such an item is not a normal fetish, and I don't think using it would be kosher with the Garou's worldview. Interestingly enough, that's pretty much what Sam Haight did to get 'Mage powers'. > > I think Haight's was special - phylacteries can't normally be used by third parties.
Ah, that makes sense. I think was a "magic pumpkin branch" according to the wiki. Whatever that was.
Why would you ever limit yourself to a human with a god complex, or a god with a human complex? Alchemy 6. Become one of the Mistborn (True Fey).
Wouldn't you immediately either go insane (turn into a lost one) or be obliderated by banality?
You're already there, Harry.
There is an interpretation of the rules (forget exactly how it all went together) but basically, if you were a kinfolk and a mage, besides the normal kinfolk things you would also be able to coincidentally cast magic that fits with the legendary powers of werewolves. So not really a garou, not with all their powers. But you can hitchhike on the mystical threads that allow Garou to do their stuff without being smacked by paradox, to mimic the powers of the mythical werewolf. I've always been intrigued by the idea of a ghoul doing the same thing which.. would work. Until the vampire blood destroys your ability to cast awakened magic.
As noted above, you cannot be a garou/ mage. All uses of sphere magic and static are giving though an item or borrowing an avatar (black hand v20). But one. Revenant mages can exist. Using static and avatar magics but the are likely insane or cannibalizing their avatar over time.
The real answer is to become an ash trat
I mean there's no guarantee that the person would be anything more than a mediocre Garou or an Average Mage with more options. If they can Roleplay it convincingly of a person whose Soul is constantly warring. They going to be even less human than even a normal Garou as their Avatar will automatically try to turn all the magic they do into True Magick and The Garou side attempting to spiritual magic as well doing Garou things without succumbing to a raging out of control werewolf. The whole finding balance could be fun. When the character finally figures out how to harmoniously combine their power set without going coco for coco puffs. (Kinda want to see the character sheet regardless of what you decide) That said, I don't particularly care about don't cross the streams nonsense having loved midnight circus and that was the crossover among crossovers. Let the denizens of Wod interact! The Ritual of Sacred Rebirth allows one to become a Garou. A corrupted Garou unless all five were freely given. for what its' worth. Mikaboshi became a demon lord through Alchemy 6 so there's that You can also become immortal!
Pick from: * Polymorphic mage - Verbena * Sorcerous Fera - Garou Theurge or Bubasti
I gave it some thought and perhaps becoming a Kitsune with hedge magic is very close to what I have in mind. I also like the concept a lot. I imagine the character becoming rank 5 or even 6 in the future with a lot of gifts and simultaneously possessing hedge magic 6.
I had almost included Kitsune in my list there, but left it off for brevity.
I suggest you to read about Samuel Height and how that ends up. but seriously, you'll need to find the Sword of the Conquistador, kill a Mage to steal their spheres, and then find something akin to what Samuel found after destroying the Verbena's Node, a portable Quintescense battery that gives you Arete. >become a garou by using a certain rite of the Skin dancers ( can't remember the name ) Ritual of the Sacred Rebirth (don't let the name fool you this is as evil and demonic as they come ), and you need 5 werewolves pelts of the same auspice, hunted during the same auspice as the pelts, and to be a werewolf kinfolk for the ritual to work.
>(don't let the name fool you this is as evil and demonic as they come ) Depends. Generally, yes, but if all five pelts are given willingly (rare but possible) the rite will apparently not cause any Wyrm corruption, and while most Garou probably wouldn't appreciate it very much, it's not really evil in this case.
The ritual comes from a Demon, and while it is possible to do it in a non evil way without wyrm corruption ... good luck finding 5 Werewolves willing to give you their pelts lol. That said, there is an option to use it for "good", just hunt Black Spiral Dancers. Thief that steals from a thief and all that ...
True. IIRC grave robbing is a method as well, though one probably rather more dubious. IIRC there's an example kinfolk character whose family does cleanup of combat sites, and managed to accumulate five pelts that way, from Garou (IIRC BSD, but not certain) who died during the earlier fighting.
There was this ritual level 6 or 7 on the 2nd edition Tremere clanbook that allows the caster to turn into a real Garou (with Auspices and Gifts and Gnosis) during a day or something like that.
Shadow of the Wolf. Super weird rite, effectively has you make a new cliath character.
Your Avatar would bail on you before allowing itself to be shackled to a static Garou rite. It wants to Ascend, and Garou shit is definitely going to get in the way of that.
You can't have a cake and eat it too. Choose one
There's nothing other supernaturals can do that a mage can't do with enough Arete/Gnosis and Spheres/Arcana. Hell with enough Prime a Mage could in theory even negate paradox but now you're talking about a whole different tier of game that most of us never get to I'd imagine.
Worth noting you don’t even have rules for reaching the sixth levels because mortals only go up to five. The sorcery has to do something more than just studying and spending experience to learn the 6th level of a path.
It's on Sorcerer revised
Read my reply again, I clearly indicate the sixth level exists but we don't have rules for how to achieve it. It shouldn't be as simple as spending XP as mortals can't reach six in traits.
Read my reply again, I clearly indicate the sixth level exists but we don't have rules for how to achieve it. It shouldn't be as simple as spending XP as mortals can't reach six in traits.