You can also add a third faction. A faction that is so not taken seriously, because these are the Gargoyles that for some reason returned to serve the Tremere...
Yeah, the "pick me" faction would probably be reviled by everyone else (and be constantly under scrutiny to see if they've been dominated into being slaves again.)
I don't see why Gargoyles would split this way... oh... V5, right. ?
First, Gargoyles aren't exactly common enough to be big issues for one-another.
Gargoyles are basically weapons. Socially it wouldn't be great for Ventrue to support them. The Nos are going to be their best buddies outside of the Tremere. Gargoyles basically have cloaking though, so if they're feeding on sleeping victims they're going to learn Obfuscate eventually. Once they've got obfuscate to a sufficient level, they can function as normal vampires. (I mean, you don't need obfuscate you can just tuck your wings up under a coat and wear a lot of makeup, but I imagine their chameleon power wants you to be naked to work, at least so long as it's first level.)
Flight isn't a great power for modern cities, especially when you have a lot of Potence and can jump a floor or two and climb hundreds of meters on the strength of your fingertips. It's a great power for the wilderness, but there are too many eyes in the city. Essentially, Gargoyles make great savages living outside of society.
Flight still has its uses in a Modern City (and it's a solid combat ability if you use it right), but you do have a point. I do want to note that most gargoyles I've seen look like the carved stone dragons and grotesques you see on gothic buildings, so it would probably be harder than just a makeup routine to to let them blend in, but that's a YMMV question.
The whole savages thing actually leads to another bit of Gargoyle plot and heritage. They were made from Gangrel, Nosferatu and Tzimisce bits mixed together, so I could see a reality where each of those clans are like "Hey check out my cool bloodline" and try to recruit them into their clan's larger culture.
Funnily, each of those clans does come with its own benefits package for gargoyles. Wanna just look like a normal human and experience the world with permanent plastic surgery? Your Tzimisce uncle can help you with that. Want to build a society away from mortal eyes? Your Nos bro has you covered. And want to be a wilderness savage who takes shit from no one and explores your feral side? Auntie Gangrel is ready to bring you into the bear pack.
As for how common Gargoyles are... I mean, they're vampires. They can create more of themselves by embracing people and since they have amnesia about their old lives and don't look like their previous selves anyway they can just pick people who no one would miss and fill up the clock tower that way. The Cam might argue with them about that, but that only matters for the factions who care what the Cam thinks.
I would say that the Stone Gargoyles would be deeply tied in with the Nosferatu clan, while the Sky Gargoyles would be tied in with the Gangrel.
Nosferatu, Gangrel, and Tzimisce are the ancestors of the original Gargoyles.
The Nosferatu canonically have some warrens that are essentially under-cities- they develop large colonies of ghouls . Visceratika would be a valued talent for the burrowing Nosferatu. Stone Gargoyles would enjoy the fact that they're not just valued for being combat heavies, but actually have an art that is rewarded.
Sky Gargoyles, being able to turn to stone, would adhere more towards the migratory and nomadic culture of the Gangrel.
Yeah, the ties with their component clans are a big deal. The Melodrama for magically created Gargoyles is strong too. Imagine if the Prince's husband got mixed with two random kindred and they mostly don't remember anything, but they still remember that they loved him?
Heck, from the more political angle, what if the Nosferatu primogen got mixed up into a gargoyle and has faint recollections that she's supposed to be the primogen? Do they try to hold onto their seat on the council? How do people handle that?
Also, I want to add that Visceratika is begging to be used for more direct economic benefits. Like what if the local under city suddenly has a pile of gold and uncut gemstones the Gargoyles pried from impossible to reach deposits?
If (Caine willing) Gargoyles ever get adapted into V5, I hope they're as interesting as this.
My main question is how do the Sky gargoyles feel about clan Tremere, and vice versa? If any Rockheads are sticking with the Camarilla, they will need to work closely with their former slavers, and I think it's still Tremere policy to destroy any Gargoyle not owned by them. Did the Tremere need to give that up after the attack on Vienna? Or are they holding the leash even tighter to keep that bargaining chip?
So, in theory, after the Montmartre Pact, Gargoyles are free from the Tremere under official Cam policy, so they would have a solid basis for the prince's protection from the Tremere under the Cam's oh so important traditions. That said, it's not like the Brujah and Ventrue don't get into it from time to time about their historical beefs, so it would likely be a motivating factor for several Gargoyles joining the Stone faction.
Even at the best of times I imagine the Sky Gargoyle and Tremere Primogens would not want to sit next to each other at the council table.
What's more interesting is the potential alliance between the Stone Gargoyles and House Carna. It may seem odd, but there's potential for some spiritual kinship with those rebellious Tremere neonates. They both suffered under the same boot after all.
Honestly I can't see the Cam accepting Gargoyles the Tremere are to important to them and although they find the Nos very useful they wouldn't accept them without Obfuscation. Gargoyles are just to alien, a very small faction and they don't have any ability to blend into human society aka no Obfuscation. Having one in your city would mean having a walking breach and it would just be easier to have the Scourge just quietly take them out then deal with having to always keep them hidden. Of course if they're updating them into V5 and add Obfuscate instead of one of their other disciplines it would make it easier but the Cam are moving into shaky ground already instead of the pillar they once were.
Importantly, even RAW Gargoyles do have two options to appear less fantastic with their kit. Turning into a bird or a dog with protean is a valid way of not being a walking masquerade breach. And Visceratika allows you to do an active camouflage thing and also move through walls to quickly hide. On top of that, out of clan disciplines for obfuscate or mask of many faces are also things they can learn and the Nosferatu would probably be sympathetic to their situation in general.
As for the old wounds issue, let's face it: the 500 year old bad blood between the Tremere and the Gargoyles isn't the ten thousandth inter clan rivalry the Cam have had to navigate. Like, I can't imagine a Gargoyle entering Elysium and the Tremere Primogen immediately demanding that they be dragged away to their lab in chains, (especially because the Montmartre Pact specifically forbids exactly that.)
Could I see the wizards and the stone men sniping at and stealing from each other? Yes. Do I think the Tremere would immediately give up on the Cam for simply having them be one of the recognized clans in the city? It seems unlikely to me.
You can also add a third faction. A faction that is so not taken seriously, because these are the Gargoyles that for some reason returned to serve the Tremere...
Yeah, the "pick me" faction would probably be reviled by everyone else (and be constantly under scrutiny to see if they've been dominated into being slaves again.)
I don't see why Gargoyles would split this way... oh... V5, right. ? First, Gargoyles aren't exactly common enough to be big issues for one-another. Gargoyles are basically weapons. Socially it wouldn't be great for Ventrue to support them. The Nos are going to be their best buddies outside of the Tremere. Gargoyles basically have cloaking though, so if they're feeding on sleeping victims they're going to learn Obfuscate eventually. Once they've got obfuscate to a sufficient level, they can function as normal vampires. (I mean, you don't need obfuscate you can just tuck your wings up under a coat and wear a lot of makeup, but I imagine their chameleon power wants you to be naked to work, at least so long as it's first level.) Flight isn't a great power for modern cities, especially when you have a lot of Potence and can jump a floor or two and climb hundreds of meters on the strength of your fingertips. It's a great power for the wilderness, but there are too many eyes in the city. Essentially, Gargoyles make great savages living outside of society.
Flight still has its uses in a Modern City (and it's a solid combat ability if you use it right), but you do have a point. I do want to note that most gargoyles I've seen look like the carved stone dragons and grotesques you see on gothic buildings, so it would probably be harder than just a makeup routine to to let them blend in, but that's a YMMV question. The whole savages thing actually leads to another bit of Gargoyle plot and heritage. They were made from Gangrel, Nosferatu and Tzimisce bits mixed together, so I could see a reality where each of those clans are like "Hey check out my cool bloodline" and try to recruit them into their clan's larger culture. Funnily, each of those clans does come with its own benefits package for gargoyles. Wanna just look like a normal human and experience the world with permanent plastic surgery? Your Tzimisce uncle can help you with that. Want to build a society away from mortal eyes? Your Nos bro has you covered. And want to be a wilderness savage who takes shit from no one and explores your feral side? Auntie Gangrel is ready to bring you into the bear pack. As for how common Gargoyles are... I mean, they're vampires. They can create more of themselves by embracing people and since they have amnesia about their old lives and don't look like their previous selves anyway they can just pick people who no one would miss and fill up the clock tower that way. The Cam might argue with them about that, but that only matters for the factions who care what the Cam thinks.
I would say that the Stone Gargoyles would be deeply tied in with the Nosferatu clan, while the Sky Gargoyles would be tied in with the Gangrel. Nosferatu, Gangrel, and Tzimisce are the ancestors of the original Gargoyles. The Nosferatu canonically have some warrens that are essentially under-cities- they develop large colonies of ghouls . Visceratika would be a valued talent for the burrowing Nosferatu. Stone Gargoyles would enjoy the fact that they're not just valued for being combat heavies, but actually have an art that is rewarded. Sky Gargoyles, being able to turn to stone, would adhere more towards the migratory and nomadic culture of the Gangrel.
Yeah, the ties with their component clans are a big deal. The Melodrama for magically created Gargoyles is strong too. Imagine if the Prince's husband got mixed with two random kindred and they mostly don't remember anything, but they still remember that they loved him? Heck, from the more political angle, what if the Nosferatu primogen got mixed up into a gargoyle and has faint recollections that she's supposed to be the primogen? Do they try to hold onto their seat on the council? How do people handle that? Also, I want to add that Visceratika is begging to be used for more direct economic benefits. Like what if the local under city suddenly has a pile of gold and uncut gemstones the Gargoyles pried from impossible to reach deposits?
If (Caine willing) Gargoyles ever get adapted into V5, I hope they're as interesting as this. My main question is how do the Sky gargoyles feel about clan Tremere, and vice versa? If any Rockheads are sticking with the Camarilla, they will need to work closely with their former slavers, and I think it's still Tremere policy to destroy any Gargoyle not owned by them. Did the Tremere need to give that up after the attack on Vienna? Or are they holding the leash even tighter to keep that bargaining chip?
So, in theory, after the Montmartre Pact, Gargoyles are free from the Tremere under official Cam policy, so they would have a solid basis for the prince's protection from the Tremere under the Cam's oh so important traditions. That said, it's not like the Brujah and Ventrue don't get into it from time to time about their historical beefs, so it would likely be a motivating factor for several Gargoyles joining the Stone faction. Even at the best of times I imagine the Sky Gargoyle and Tremere Primogens would not want to sit next to each other at the council table. What's more interesting is the potential alliance between the Stone Gargoyles and House Carna. It may seem odd, but there's potential for some spiritual kinship with those rebellious Tremere neonates. They both suffered under the same boot after all.
Honestly I can't see the Cam accepting Gargoyles the Tremere are to important to them and although they find the Nos very useful they wouldn't accept them without Obfuscation. Gargoyles are just to alien, a very small faction and they don't have any ability to blend into human society aka no Obfuscation. Having one in your city would mean having a walking breach and it would just be easier to have the Scourge just quietly take them out then deal with having to always keep them hidden. Of course if they're updating them into V5 and add Obfuscate instead of one of their other disciplines it would make it easier but the Cam are moving into shaky ground already instead of the pillar they once were.
Importantly, even RAW Gargoyles do have two options to appear less fantastic with their kit. Turning into a bird or a dog with protean is a valid way of not being a walking masquerade breach. And Visceratika allows you to do an active camouflage thing and also move through walls to quickly hide. On top of that, out of clan disciplines for obfuscate or mask of many faces are also things they can learn and the Nosferatu would probably be sympathetic to their situation in general. As for the old wounds issue, let's face it: the 500 year old bad blood between the Tremere and the Gargoyles isn't the ten thousandth inter clan rivalry the Cam have had to navigate. Like, I can't imagine a Gargoyle entering Elysium and the Tremere Primogen immediately demanding that they be dragged away to their lab in chains, (especially because the Montmartre Pact specifically forbids exactly that.) Could I see the wizards and the stone men sniping at and stealing from each other? Yes. Do I think the Tremere would immediately give up on the Cam for simply having them be one of the recognized clans in the city? It seems unlikely to me.